i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. the right's last stand. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews. in washington, leading off tonight, can anyone stop mitt? that's what evangelicals are asking. they are desperate that mitt romney will sweep to the nomination without a fight. the last bet, rick santorum. but does newt gingrich or santorum have a chance or could this race be noefr south carolina this saturday? also, republicans insist they are looking for a president that will turn around the job losses, bounce back from depression, cripple al qaeda, and keep health care private. in other words, president obama.

the writer andrew sullivan makes a great case for the president's record so far. so how come the president and his people never do the same. and think this is over the top? let's watch. >> if mitt romney really believes -- >> corporations are people, my friend. >> -- then mitt romney is a serial killer. he's mitt the ripper. >> wow. that is from steven colbert's new superpac, which in theory, has nothing to do with him. and in practice has everything to do with steve colbert. ted koppel joins us tonight. and if the jon huntsman campaign tells us anything, it's that the republican party has not much use for a thoughtful campaign of ideas that tries to positively build bridges and not burn them down. huntsman, who once praised president obama, did the opposite today. let me finish with words from

the man we honor today, martin luther king. we begin with the evangelicals helping rick santorum trying to get, well, stop mitt romney. jim garlo is the pastor of a church down in san diego. he supports newt gingrich for president. tony old pal, thanks for joining us. you come on the ow quite regularly. let's watch newt gingrich yesterday on "meet the press" responding to david gregory's question as to whether or not he, gingrich, feels pressure to drop out of the race now that the evangelicals have consolidated support behind rick santorum. >> i think that report was highly exaggerated. we basically split that group. i got a good number of votes. the one consensus was that virtually no one was for mitt romney. >> that was newt gingrich responding to david gregory's characterization of the fact that what happened this weekend is an evangelical group benefit

150 pastors meeting down in texas united basically behind rick santorum. well, did they or did they not unite behind rick santorum? >> well, first, it was not just pastors. it was conservative political leaders, as well as activists and businessmen. and there were thoughtful discussions. there was support going into that meeting for rick perry, rick santorum, and newt gingrich. there was a balloting process. in the end, a majority did move to rick santorum. about 75% of those who were there. but there were people who left like my good friend jim who is on with us that remain committed to newt gingrich. and i can tell you this. while people there did move toward rick santorum because they feel he's best reflective to move forward and take the message and win, that if rick perry or newt gingrich or rick santorum captured the nomination, they would have enthusiastic support from the people there at the meeting. >> jim garlo, thanks.

welcome to the show. should i call you pastor garlo or mr. garlo. >> jim is fine. >> thanks a lot. the question is was it a fair vote? is there a consensus now in the community down in texas behind rick santorum? >> there was a fair vote. it was a totally fair vote. newt gingrich was nine votes behind rick santorum on the first ballot. everything was fair about it. i wish we would have won. we did not quite win it. there was not a consensus on a candidate. there was consensus on values and principles. we left as friends. we stay friends, but we see it differently. i differ with your introduction regarding jon huntsman, a man with the ideas. i think the man with the ideas truly is newt gingrich. that's why i stand with him. >> of course, you do. thank you. i said i would have voted for huntsman in the new hampshire primary to shake things up. today the "washington times" reports that some evangelical activists say the vote on saturday was rigged. this is from the "washington

times." "protestant fundamentalist leaders who attended, most of them backing former house speaker newt gingrich to be the anti-romney candidate, are accusing catholic participants of conniving to rig the vote. they say they were conned into leaving after the second ballot on saturday and now a political organizer is saying to others confidentially he has evidence that at least one instance a participant was seen writing mr. santorum's name on four separate ballots and putting them in the ballot box." is that something you could subscribe to that assessment or that witness? >> chris ican say -- i'm the guy who lost. i gave the speech for newt gingrich. and we -- those of us that came for newt gingrich left still for newt gingrich. there was nothing rigged or unfair about it. it was done fairly. it was done appropriately. i was appointed to watch the ballot counting process representing newt gingrich. we came close. we came within nine votes. it was a great day. we left still supporting him.

there's no truth to it being rigged. >> no one was encouraged to leave before the final ballot? >> no. i can tell you exactly on that. the meeting was to go till 1:00. a number of us had to catch planes at 10:45. we all happened to be newt gingrich supporters. i didn't know all the others were going. we had to leave. that wasn't the fault of the meeting. that was the fault of our schedules. nobody did us wrong. >> because you work on sundays. i understand, ministers have -- >> i had a saturday night service. >> you definitely had to be home. >> let me get back to tony. here's newt gingrich yesterday conceding romney may be the biggest beneficiary of the evangelical endorsement. this is a little nasty here. let's listen. >> the only way a massachusetts moderate can get through south carolina is if the vote is split. i think somebody who -- generally people agree was the best debeater so far. i think i have the best chance to beat obama.

>> a recent ppp poll taken this past week shows the latest poll in south carolina shows romney leading the pack at 29%. but he's hardly unbeatable with newt gingrich at 24. santor up a bit further back at 14. why would you back a guy 15 points back rather than the guy who could easily overtake romney and stop this train in south carolina? >> you know, that was part of the points that were discussed there this weekend. really what was driving this is a desire not to repeat what happened in 2008, when a number of conservative leaders stayed on the sidelines or they were fragmented between fred thompson and mike huckabee instead of rallying around one candidate. that wasn't the genesis behind this meeting. some felt that newt gingrich was the best to go forward and capture the nomination and catch mitt romney. get the nomination. others committed to the principles that rick santorum stands for and the fact that they felt that what he was lacking, his liabilities were by no means in comparison to his

assets that he brought to this and he would be easier to rally social conservatives around and get a broader base of conservative folks. it was a surprising meeting in that it was very positive. it wasn't negative oriented. it was who could cast the best vision and who could people rally around reflecting the principles. >> here's your guy, fox news sunday. rick santorum said it's time for evangelicals to narrow the field to effectively take on romney, making your case. let's listen. >> this is not just social conservatives. i'm hearing from conservatives across the board. economic foreign policy. they are looking for someone with a strong consistent track record. i'm hopeful. again, will it help? yeah. it will be helpful if everybody would drop out of the race. then i'd win. but the idea is we're going to go through the process. people have the right to make the case to the voters and then we'll see what happens. >> let me go to jim. why are you backing a guy who is -- i can see why the

evangelicals would back rick santorum. even if you lose, you have clean hands. you're picking a guy who has never done anything wrong in his life. if you pick newt gingrich, you have to say the guy has had a marital problem here and there but he's a good guy. we believe in him. but you have to defend the baggage if you will. isn't it easier to take the loss and vote for santorum knowing he's going to lose than to pick a guy with a troubled past and beat romney? you have chosen the practical road. he has a better chance of win bug has a flawed background. >> as flawed as king david in the old testament, but i still use him as an example. i'm glad you're trying to work tony over. >> i love you guys. i love you guys. you bring up the big guy from the old testament. >> you asked the question. let me answer it. >> sure. >> intellectual bandwidth. an understanding of history.

bona fide exceptionalism and i'm also glad for a guy who is an insider who will not be parliamentized by the secularists on the left. i want a guy who is strong and can go in there. i love the ideas he has. i'm not supporting him by default. i'm supporting him with the intentionality. and i want my guy to win because i think he can take romney out and take obama out and restore this nation of its values. >> i believe there is a gingrichism. i've just heard it. tony, why go with rick santorum who has a harder climb. he's got to climb 15 points to catch romney in south carolina. >> he did it, i believe, as we saw in iowa that rick santorum has a much better chance to emerge and maintain a lead. he has that stability. he has the clear record. he has a vision for the future. i will tell you, jim is a dear friend. i don't think we have ever disagreed on anything.

this is the only thing. but i will tell you what. this is just a part of the political process. he sees it from one way. i see it from another. i stand proudly to support candidates who subscribe to the values that frc promotes. and rick santorum is one of those candidates. but i think conservatives, whether it be rick perry, rick santorum, or newt gingrich were to capture the nomination, the unifying element here is people think it's time to replace barack obama as president and that can and must be done. in the eyes of conservatives. >> will that be the unifying element if mitt romney is the nominee? tony? >> i think he has a harder time of rallying conservatives to that call, but i think the three strong true conservatives in the race could do that. mitt romney is going to have to work at it. >> i believe you have been consistent on that point. thank you. tony perkins, thank you. thank you pastor jim garlow. i can't wait to get down to that

hot building down in tampa come the end of august when it's about 100 degrees. the humidity about 105 and you guys have to start being very prayerful for mitt romney. just kidding. that's sadistic of me to bring that up. coming up, we go inside the shell game that is the superpac system. what the big moneymen hope to gain by pouring millions into the campaigns. what's their deal? you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. if you took the top down on a crossover? if there were buttons for this? wouldn't it be cool if your car could handle the kids... ♪ ...and the nurburgring? or what if you built a car in tennessee that could change the world? yeah, that would be cool. nissan. innovation for today. innovation for tomorrow. innovation for all. ♪ ♪

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the difference between a pac and a superpac is like apples and oranges. if the orange could take unlimited corporate union donations and spend them in an unlimited fashion to affect the outcome of the 2012 election. >> and the apple? >> who cares. it's not a superpac. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was part of an interview with stephen colbert that will air tonight on nbc's "rock center." for months, colbert has satirized the superpacs and the unlimited contributions they can collect. they are supposed to be independent from the candidates. they are backing the critics. special correspondent ted koppel has been looking into the

superpacs. his report will air tonight on "rock center." he joins us now. ted, thanks for coming on tonight. i have to ask you a point of curiosity. was colbert acting like the guy colbert or the actor colbert when you interviewed him for the show tonight? because he can play the part or not. >> he's never out of character. in fact, it was just wearing jeans and a sweatshirt or something when i got there. i was in jeans and a jacket. he was razzing me about not wearing a tie because he went back inside and changed because when he talks on this subject, he's always in character. >> right. he plays this sort of zany right wing character over the top. let's look at the ad he's running to make a point. you explain why this is an important. here's an ad the so-called stephen colbert campaign is airing in south carolina. basically, it's done by a superpac. it's going after mitt romney in

an over the top fashion. >> mitt romney says he's for corporations. >> corporations are people, my friend. >> but mitt romney has a secret. as head of bain capital, he bought companies, carved them up, and got rid of what he couldn't use. if mitt romney really believes -- >> corporations are people, my friend. >> -- then mitt romney is a serial killer. he's mitt the ripper. >> ted, that smacks of a jesuit education. because if corporations are people and you kill corporations, then you are a murderer. >> it is an outrageous ad. and the fact of the matter is that stephen colbert, we're all somewhat indebted to him, although i think he takes it pretty much to the line here. we're somewhat indebted because those of us in the business have not paid proper attention to what these superpacs are and

what they are doing. stephen by virtue of his satire is doing it. and he's pushing it to the absolute limit here because if you were to get him on the program now and say how do you justify that ad, he would say, as indeed the real candidates are saying about what their superpacs are doing, i have nothing to do with that. i don't run the superpac. i can't communicate with the sup superpac. he handed the superpac over to jon stewart. clearly they are two men who have a great deal in common, just as the people running. mitt romney's superpac are people who ran his presidential campaign four years ago. but legally, they are not in touch with one another. >> and all this has unraveled us back to pre-watergate law. before watergate, i remember these big names for nixon. just as an example. it happened in both parties.

a very wealthy person could give a huge amount of money and really create a debt situation with a candidate. here's a good illustration of what's going on. according to nbc news, pro-candidate superpacs are spending more than the campaigns on ads in south carolina. the pro-romney superpac is spending $2.2 million on air time while the campaign is spending only $1.3 million. the predominance of the money that's unaccounted for is dominating the actual on the record spending by legitimate donors. >> it's not only what's not unaccounted for. one of the radio station managers down in south carolina told me the other day was the superpacs are capable of reacting much more quickly because they get huge chunks of money. sometimes they get million-dollar and multimillion-dollar donations. they get that all in one chunk. it goes into the bank. the campaigns get money the old-fashioned way. $2,500 at a time. and they can't use it until the

checks clear. which means that almost all the best times on television, on radio have been bought up by the superpacs, not the campaigns. >> so if you have a sugar daddy, whatever you call them, say i need something to react tonight. can you give me the money? here's newt gingrich responding to the question of the reason people give this money. let's listen. >> i'd like to see a simple election reform that allows people to give unlimited after-tax money to the candidate. have the candidate put the ad up. you take 80% of the poison out of the system overnight because no candidate would put their name to some of these ads. >> i was thinking, you were nailing him about why these people give this. he has a cause. he's double downed with one candidate. the other fella said on your program, i'm previewing it.

the other guy said i want to get rid of all regulations. it's pretty blunt stuff. >> that's exactly right. the fact of the matter is, for all that newt gingrich says, and indeed all the candidates are saying, they hate the superpacs. they would like to get rid of the superpacs. romney has said it. gingrich has said it. santorum has said it. they all say they want to get rid of the superpacs. then as you point out, mr. adelson gives newt gingrich $5 million. well, gives his superpac $5 million. what does the superpac do? it buys this vicious 27-minute documentary that was created by someone solely for the purpose of selling it to a superpac. and he was, i guess, the gingrich superpac red, white and blue outbid the others. now they are running it in south carolina. newt gingrich has the advantage of whatever it is that the documentary does to disillusion

people about mitt romney works to his advantage. but he can say i really hate that documentary. i think the inaccuracies in it need to be corrected or it should be taken off the air all together. meanwhile, the folks at the superpac say, sorry, we can't communicate. they are still running it. >> they are still checking out the facts. i love the fact you just pointed something out. you can now create a 27-minute negative documentary. it's not really a documentary. and then advertise it on speck. there must be somebody that wants to destroy his reputation. here's joe scarborough asking mitt romney whether he could tell his pro-romney superpac to quit airing anti-gingrich ads. here's mitt romney's response. >> as you probably know, superpacs have to be entirely separate from a campaign and a candidate. i'm not allowed to communicate

with a superpac in any way, shape, or form. if we coordinate in any way whatsoever, we go to the big house. >> we go to the big house. my goodness. the lingo. >> chris, that is total nonsense too, as the governor knows. first of all, the federal election committee doesn't send anybody to the big house. at worst, they slap a fine on you. when you're talking about the worst kind of fines that have been slapped on people in the last few years, it's $100,000 or $200,000. that's the price of poker these days. when you have superpacs taking in $10 million, $20 million, what's a $200,000 fine? >> great work. ted koppel, watch him tonight on "rock center" at 10:00 p.m. eastern on nbc. up next, newt gingrich gets a thumbs up. or two thumbs up. stick around for the side show. copd makes it hard to breathe,

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back to "hardball." now for the side show. comedy or drama? what's the category? stephen colbert's entry to the 2012 race to the white house may be a smart way to point out the poor game of campaign financing. we talked about it earlier. colbert faced questions yesterday. one question seriously asked him who he might pick for vp. does he have a short list? and, oh, yeah, how he thinks he'll fare without his name appearing on the ballot. >> this is an exploratory. when you exploring, you don't know what you're going to find. >> just because something is difficult doesn't mean something shouldn't be worth doing. i'm exploring now. i'm a one-man lewis and clark. and i'm just looking for my s k

sacagawea. they said i can't get on the ballot? they say we couldn't go to the moon. but nasa did it. >> wasn't that funny? next up, big time backfire. when the pro-gingrich superpac shelled out to air parts of an ad bashing bain capital, who is the last person giving the piece a thumbs up? it's michael moore. he loves this documentary. according to an interview, he had this to say about the film. "i wondered who they stole from my crew. it's fun to hear what i've been saying for 20 years." not just by any republican candidate but night giewt gingr. and there's a reason many conservatives have backed off attacks off bain capital. they don't like michael moore agreeing with them. finally, breaking the rules. mike huckabee hosted a forum with tim scott. the rules weren't as rigged as they are for debates, but here's

one rule huckabee wanted all candidates to pay close attention to. no bashing of the other candidates. think everyone played along? all but one. let's see who decided to ignore the rule book when one apparently pro-romney person asked how they could defend companies that put a lot of money on the line to salvage companies on the brink of failure. >> governor romney ran saying he created 100,000 jobs in the private sector. >> mr. speaker, we said we will not allow. >> that's right. it was newt. the event ended without huckabee endorsing any of the candidates. many were still saying they are undecided. how can you be undecided now? up next, if you're looking for the presidential candidate who can turn around job losses, prevent economic collapse, lower taxes and keep health care in private hands, you've got one in president obama.

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the "name your price" tool. now available on your phone. get a free quote today. i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. 29 people are now said to be missing from the shipwreck of a cruise liner "concordia." among them an american couple from minnesota. six are confirmed dead. the ship's owner says it was human error that caused the horrific crash off the tuscan coast. investigators are focussing on the ship's captain who has already been arrested. a tanker carrying much-needed fuel is just outside of gnome, alaska's harbor. a fuel transfer could begin tonight. without that deliver ethey'd run out of fuel by march or april. the tanker began the very slow journey from russia.

and the occupy movement marked the holiday with a march. demonstrators gathered at the african burial ground and marched to the new york federal reserve. the protesters said their crusade against corporate greed echos the slain civil right's leader's crusade for equality. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." this is going to be a big segment for everybody watching this show. in the past couple weeks, we pointed out some of the criticism of president obama from republicans is not rooted in fact. criticism he's bungling the economy and greatly expanding the government and that he's an appeaser. in the current issue of "newsweek," andrew sullivan

takes on obama's critics on the right and the left and points out that president obama's strategy is to take the long view, play the long game and ultimately he will outsmart his critics. but it requires obama a second term. andrew sullivan has the piece. he's the editor of the dish and a columnist at "newsweek." andrew, thank you for joining me. my friend, here is your opportunity. an opportunity. a soliloquy is at hand. i don't mind you engaging in one. on the same day the bureau of labor statistics released new numbers showing 200,000 jobs were added to the economy, mitt romney criticized the president's economic policy. i want you to respond to this. >> he not only wasted government money, he made it more difficult for entrepreneurs to come up with new ideas of the future. this president doesn't understand how this economy works. it's time to get a president who does.

>> as this chart shows, the u.s. economy was well into a huge job loss. this started under president bush. we all know that. people keep forgetting it. our economy was losing 750,000 jobs a month. he halted the collapse and the unemployment rate has been dropping steadily since august. your thoughts about what really happened. i want you to take on the right here. >> well, i think that obama has governed as he said he would as a sensible pragmatic centrist. he's grappled with the key issue facing the economy which was this inherited massive depression, and he's taken the most sensible course to correct it. if you look at the way austerity is killing some countries in europe, he's managed to sustain steady recovery and growth with some clear strategy. a stimulus package, lower taxes. you'll never hear republicans point out that he has cut taxes. and a sensible, basically right

of center approach to running the economy. as for obama care, that hasn't come into effect yet. even when it does, it will cost a fraction of what bush's medicare prescription drug coverage did and it also helps the economy. it's important in a market economy that people go to jobs for the jobs, not because they need the health care or can quit a job for the right reasons, not because they can't lose their health care. so the health care helps the economy as well. i just got frustrated hearing all these people tell untruths about the record. the record is that he has done something perfectly sensible. he's fulfilled the promises he made to turn this country around slowly. everybody acknowledges that this financial chrrisis was the wors since the '30s and would take time to recover from. people need patience and need to look at the record and realize things are going in the right direction in extremely difficult times. >> let's take a look at the list of accomplishments. it includes depression averted.

we did avert a great depression the second time. auto industry bailout successful. it was his idea. it worked. the iraq war ended. he said he would. bin laden dead. he didn't promise he would, but he did. and a pair of liberal appointments to the supreme court so the supreme court is in better shape. you write, the liberal holy grail that eluded johnson and carter and clinton, nearly health care has been set into law. let's talk about from the left. how do you respond to those, i don't think they are practical, but i value their thinking that say, well, we still have gitmo. we didn't get a public option. there is a list you are familiar with with people on the progressive side. what is your response? >> you have to look and see what was he able to do. in the national defense authorization act where it looks like habeas corpus is up in the air. he had 100 votes in the senate. what was he supposed to do with that? the same with gitmo. he wanted to close that but the congress stopped him. he's not a magician.

nor is he a dictator. he's part of a process. one of the things he's had to deal with is an unusually obstructionist republican party who will not cooperate on anything. that gave him in the worst depression downturn, zero votes for a pretty modest stimulus package in line with most mainstream economists. that's what he's also been dealing with. one of the great things about his possibly being re-elected is we might for the first time get through to republicans. you can actually compromise with him when you want to if you want to. maybe if you stop obstructing him and start negotiating with him, you'll get a better deal and the public will listen to you better in the future. >> run through what a second term would look like. it's not really about the past. in terms of government activism, health care. is that the last step he's going to take? something on the immigration front? what's he going to do in terms of economic growth? what do you see as the picture of a second obama term? >> i see it as a picture in which the american society,

certainly in terms of sunsetting the bush tax cuts and having some sort of rise in the tax rates for the very rich will be an attempt to tackle the debt. that's a huge problem. i think he offers the possibility of a fair and balanced way of cutting the debt than the republican approach, which is entirely to do it on the backs of the middle class and the poor. having some sacrifice on the very wealthy is important. i also think immigration reform is possible, necessary, and important. and i think he has a chance to do that. again, if the republicans are prepared to be reasonable and come back to the negotiating table in a way that isn't completely determined by a fantasy about who this guy is. he's not a big old lefty. as for the left, he's a compromiser in the middle. what he's done is set out carefully where he wants to go and he's waiting for them to come to the table to get there. if he does and does it with that kind of bipartisan support long

term, his achievement will be very durable, as durable as reagan's was. >> why do i not hear this kind of clarity or clairvoyance talking about the future and where he's taking us from his team in chicago? >> i wish we did. i think this case could be made. in reporting this piece, i was frustrated in talking to them about their inability to present the record. just the record of this moderate, successful, and i think in some ways transformative president. his foreign policy alone, not just bin laden. and by the way, bush did take the eye off bin laden. but most of the leadership of al qaeda destroyed. he finally won the war against the worst attack on this country. >> let's mix it up here a little. that's brilliant. everybody is going to read this article in "newsweek." i agree with you. you are a genius on this. but there's something endemic about the liberals. why didn't al gore claim under the clinton administration it

was irrelevant to al gore. the economy was fantastic under the democrats from '93 to 2000 yet when gore ran for president he never once bragged. what is it about this defeatism, this loserism with democrats that -- is it the fear if you brag about economic success, some poor people will say you left me out? what is it that staggers their ability to occasionally do a dance in the end zone and say we did it. >> i think it's partly because they invested into obama a bunch of fantasies that he was some kind of far left radical who is going to transform the world. he never was. he never said he was going to be. and there's a sort of purism on the left if you're not that, therefore, we must stay home. if i hear another person in their 50s with a ponytail tell me they are not going to vote this year because they couldn't get a public option, i will scream. they need to join the real world. >> that class is not limited to the people in their 50s. there's a lot of young bloggers

in their 20s and 30s who are always whipping themselves that this isn't the great transformation that was promised by someone. >> i would just ask them to grow up a little and look at history. and understand in reagan's term at this point it was not clear he would be the transformative figure he was supposed to be. and the right attacking him from the get go. it's a different era than the '80s. obama is to this era which reagan is in the '80s. i'm happy saying i backed reagan in the '80s and obama now. we need his correction and his calm and his leadership. his temperament alone is enough to keep him in the oval office. >> who should the people write letters of anger at? i'm kidding. both sides have ponytails. >> i support them in general. i apologize. >> you're a genius. >> thank you. >> up next, mitt romney got another boost on his march to the republican nomination. jon huntsman. not a big deal, but he's out of

the race. they are winnowing out these people. it's getting smaller this list. can anyone stop mitt? it's a question we'll answer in a minute. this is "hardball" on msnbc.

tomorrow is the deadline for signatures to force the possible recall of wisconsin's union-busting governor scott walker. supporters of walker's recall need about 540,000 signatures and the democratic party chairman says they are on track to hit 750,000. well, that would mean a recall election would take place as early as this spring and would be a crucial test of the power of big labor in a critical swing state for the presidential election. we'll be right back. great guest experience. that makes my day.

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we're back with jon huntsman bowing out of the race earlier today in south carolina. the race continues to whittle down to romney versus the non-romneys with huntsman supporters very likely now to throw their support behind romney. in a still-fractured conservative crowd, can anyone stop romney at this point? michael steel is the former chair of the rnc and edward fineman editorial director for the huffington post. i guess that's what keeps this game going. what would it take for romney to lose in south carolina? and who could do it? >> it would take a surge by one of the remaining candidates. you have an eye on certainly santorum and gingrich are battling it out. everyone is overlooking ron paul down there as well. the guy -- >> but he doesn't matter. >> that's what people like to think. >> no, but he doesn't stop him from getting the nomination. >> it doesn't stop him from getting the nomination but he can make it more difficult down stream. in terms of stopping him, santorum or gingrich.

i'd have to give the edge to santorum given the support from the evangelicals. >> it's an interesting choice. a person who charge to have mormon, two catholics, they must be going what kind of world do we live in. called america. >> that was the space that rick perry originally was aiming for, the prostesant vote, the core of the republican southern-based party. south carolina is the historic home, that is the wheelhouse of the modern republican party, starting with strom thurmond, lee atwater, ronald reagan's big victory, he created his people created the primary before 1908 -- 1980 it was a convention deal. the romney people are more --. >> i love the way you do that. i don't know what they are really thinking but what they

are saying they are more concerned about santorum, keeping an eye more on santorum they are saying than gingrich, that translates in the air waves in the advertising independent groups are doing independent groups are doing, attacking santorum, not attacking gingrich. >> michael, look at the numbers, romney is not as high as new m ham -- new hampshire. >> very close race on the numbers. the romney people have to be concerned about santorum. people played down the juice he had coming out of new hampshire, it was a one-shot deal coming out of iowa, but he has been systematically on the ground down there, having a very good effect. >> how smart are voters to know they have to vote for one guy? >> i think they are smart, they are getting smarter. >> they're being told that by all tliheir leaders. that is what the meeting in texas was about. there are power pastors in south carolina. >> do they issue -- do they say

at the pulpit? >> i don't think they say it at the pulpit but off the pulpit, at wednesday night meet, restaurant afterwards, what they believe gets out there, and it's well-known. >> a funny thing the main stream people don't love mitt romney but they will settle for him. and the conservative evangelicals don't love rick santorum but might settle for him as well. >> it's interesting, i grew up, i was warned by relatives they don't like catholics, but the old joke one of my buddies parents was, going around and ask them where the catholic bus station is. they have their own buses up north? >> an old joke. >> now we have a situation where the democrats are looking at this thing, what are the democrats think? they must now be thinking, i'll stared with you, howard, romney is like an old polaroid coming in clarity, going to be romney.

>> it is, but it will be a very slow developing photograph. because even if romney wins in south carolina, i don't think he's going to win big. he might win big in florida. but even were he to win every delegate from here on in, if everybody else dropped out, mat math mathmatically until late march or early april, they changed the rules in the republican party, it's proportional. >> if there is nobody else that can beat him, doesn't it become for one to pay attention to. once he knocks out all opponents. >> you still have to go through the process. >> i'm worried about will there be debates in florida? >> absolutely. >> we have two more, one later now, two more, nbc debate in florida. >> remember, chris, you still have to ron paul out, there

don't think he will go away because others drop out. >> michael steel, howard fineman, thank you. we'll finish with the reverend dr. martin luther king in his own words. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. you never take an upgrade for granted. and you rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above. and still pay the mid-size price. i deserve this. [ male announcer ] you do, business pro. you do. go national. go like a pro.

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i like to finish with this, powerful stuff i'll read you words of dr. martin luther king's letter from the birmingham city jail.

i believe the words carry universal power but bring alive the spirit of the man we honor today. "for years now i heard the word wait, this wait meant never, we have waited more than 340 years for our constitutional and god-given rights. i guess it's easy for those who never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say wait. but when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your brothers and mothers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim, when you've seen hate-filled police and curse, kill your black brothers and sisters with impuni impunity, the vast majority of your 20 million brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society. when you find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six-year-old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park advertised on television and see tears welling up in her little eyes when she is told funtown is closed to colored children.

see the depressing clouds of inferiority form in her mental sky, and see her begin to distort her personality but developing a bitterness toward white people. when you have to concoct an answer for a five-year-old son asking daddy, why do white people treat color eed people s mean. when you sleep in your automobile because no motel will accept you. humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading white men and coward when you're haunted by night living in tip-toe stance, never knowing what to expect next and plagued with fears and resentiments, fighting a sense of nobody-ness you will understand why we find it difficult to wait. there comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over and men are no