you can have the last word online at my blog. can newt beat romney? let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight -- dirty, dishonest, and desperate. newt gingrich knows that the south carolina primary is like those old signs in the desert. last gas for 400 miles. if he can't stop mitt romney here, he won't stop him anywhere. so today newt did what newt does. he got nasty. he called the romney campaign dirty, dishonest, and desperate. team romney is getting nervous, and newt knows it. on the subject of mitt and taxes, it's not really romney's fault you could argue that he pays an effective tax rate of only 15%.

those are the rules. but it's also true that mitt wants to change the rules. he wants to tilt the playing field even more toward the wealthy. that doesn't help when mitt refers to the $374,000 he made a year making speeches as, quote, not very much. it's seven times, mitt, the average family income in this country. also, you don't have to be an airedale to hear the racial dog whistles in this republican race. can this kind of thing really work in 2012, or are the republicans playing a dirty game well past its sell by date? remember michael hastings whose reporting led to the firing of general stanley mcchrystal? he is out with a new book saying that where once president obama used to get pushed around by the pentagon, he is the one doing the pushing now. let me finish tonight with the robotic nominating process that's moving toward romney. we start with gingrich vs. romney. mark halperin is an msnbc senior political analyst and "time" magazine editor at large and david corn is bureau chief for

"mother jones." let's look at the new numbers just out from "time" magazine and cnn. the opinion research shows a new rise for newt gingrich in south carolina. this poll was taken from last friday through tuesday of this week but he has gained five points from early this month while romney has dropped four points. gingrich has a decent edge over conservative rival rick santorum. mark, you are a student of these numbers. i'm just wondering if you can see a projection from here until saturday morning that could allow for newt to overtake romney and win the all-important south carolina primary. >> i think he could. i think he could also come close enough that if his team is deft enough in spinning it, he could go into florida with an effective one-on-one matchup with romney for 85% of the vote. the trajectory is good for him. as you pointed out, the poll was done through tuesday. the debate performance for gingrich was monday. most of the poll doesn't have that in it.

gingrich is doing well now. he is focused, driving a pretty good message. i'd say the biggest unknown we have besides the debate tomorrow night is the television advertising. it's not really clear right now who is on the air with what, who has what money to spend. i think gingrich is set up as right now, today, the only one who can stop romney in this primary and maybe for the nomination. it's still a long shot, but i do think it's possible. >> how much do you think or will you know probably of the south carolina republican electorate who vote in these primaries are hard right? if people really want to vote tough right. >> well, it depends how you break that down. there is tough right on social issues, tough right anti-obama. there's a fair amount of establishment republicans. remember the person who has won this primary every time in the modern era since bush 41 has been the establishment candidate not necessarily the most hard right candidate. >> i see. >> romney has that right now. it's also been won by the person who's been the most deft in negative politics. i think most of that if it's going to happen is still to play out.

>> okay. interesting. is that your view, david, that it's still a plus for romney because they tend to want to vote for the winner it's fair to say? >> well, mccain won i think with about 34% of the vote last time, and he wasn't the far right candidate. so south carolina has a reputation of being conservative but they also are prey to the people with the most resources who get the nastiest. i think mark is right. the thing to pay attention to in the next few days is not the debate that's going to come thursday night. we can expect that newt will do well. maybe romney will do a little better than the other night and be feistier, but what is going to happen on the ground with campaign ads and also push pulling and all -- polling and all the techniques they do so well in south carolina right up to saturday? newt got a justifiable bounce from his dog whistle performance on monday night, but i'm pretty damn sure that the romney empire will strike back hard in the next couple days. >> they're bringing in sununu. gingrich predicted a nasty

campaign from romney between now and saturday's primary. let's listen. >> i fully expect the romney campaign to be unendingly dirty and dishonest for the next four days because they are desperate. they thought they could buy this. they're discovering they can't buy this. i think they're now going to have -- i think they have internal polls that show them losing, and i think they will do anything on any level, and i need your help. people power will beat money power and i need your help to beat romney. >> what a great opportunist. people power. newt gingrich, the man of the people. today in spartanburg, south carolina, romney took on newt gingrich as gingrich predicted. let's watch. >> i was disappointed over the last couple of weeks to see one of my opponents attacking free enterprise just like the president was. that's not the role of the republican party. that makes us sad. actually, you know, the speaker the other day at the debate was talking about how he created millions of jobs when he was

working with the reagan administration. he'd been in congress two years when ronald reagan came to office. that would be like saying 435 congressmen were all responsible for those jobs. government doesn't create jobs. it's the private sector that creates jobs. congressmen taking responsibility or taking credit for helping create jobs is like al gore taking credit for the internet. >> you know, it's another stu spencer line, the internet. they don't come from romney. what do you think? he cuts up those lucille ball lines, kardashian lines himself? i don't think so. let me ask you about this thing here. we were just talking. this is an interesting word here. he said that makes us sad. now, is that the way he thinks, that when somebody trashes a venture capital firm or equity firms that makes us sad? who is the "us"? he is now speaking in this regal, second -- what do you -- what are we talking here? the plural "we" now?

what is he talking about? the party? >> first of all you'll have to spend a little more time learning to appreciate the comedy stylings of mitt romney. it may be with us for a while. he is sad by that. that i think is a genuine reflection of his heart. he thinks lovers of america and lovers of capitalism are sad when people run down capitalism. i think the fact he went after gingrich today, they did a conference call about him this morning with susan molinari and jim talent, two former members of congress who served with newt gingrich. they are clearly worried to some extent. i don't think they have polls showing them behind. there is a real question. what if it's 32-26? does that give gingrich the ability to go to florida forcing perry and santorum out of the race and having romney along with ron paul one-on-one? that is a potentially dangerous situation. they'll have more resources than in florida, but romney one-on-one against santorum or gingrich, there is a bit of an x-factor they'd rather not see.

they'd rather leave here with a strong enough win that no one goes to florida strong but mitt romney. >> and you're talking about the new florida, the rick scott florida, the florida of the last election. more tea party than the past. a much more rightist party? >> and it's a close primary. it's only republicans. and you know it wasn't that long ago that gingrich was way up in florida overwhelmingly. now the "time" poll today has romney up by a lot, but the number could bounce back again. if gingrich has a performance here that he can spin. i can't emphasize enough his campaign has not always taken advantage of victories. rick santorum has not done that either. if they do well here, they need to take advantage of it to go to florida and have a chance. >> let's take a look at sarah palin. it's always newsworthy. the game changer herself said on fox last night where she works that if she lived in south carolina, she'd want this primary fight to continue. let's listen to her reasoning here. sarah palin's. >> if i had to vote in south carolina, in order to keep this thing going, i'd vote for newt

and i would want this to continue more debates, more vetting of candidates, because we know the mistake made in our country four years ago was having a candidate that was not vetted to the degree that he should have been so we know -- knew what his associations and pals represented and what went into his thinking, the shaping of who our president today is. that vetting did not take place. i want to see that taking place this time because america is on that precipice. it's that important. we need this process to continue. >> she wants to see if newt gingrich may turn out to be a barack obama after all. >> when she said we didn't have enough vetting of the candidate last time, i thought she was talking about herself. does she not remember she was on the ticket, she wasn't vetted and that is one reason why the republicans lost? >> but the fact is she has entered into this process. will her endorsement of keeping this process going by voting for newt gingrich matter? >> it is a semi-endorsement. she said her husband fully endorsed newt gingrich. she won't do that.

i think she has lost a lot of the pull she had. a lot of her voters i imagine are already with rick santorum, with newt gingrich, some with ron paul and she doesn't have much persuasive power over the electorate at this time. >> among conservatives down there, there is discussion about who can best take on romney and the democrats continue on the trail again today. here is gingrich this morning addressing the field of republican conservatives. >> if conservatives come together, we beat romney decisively. if conservatives are split, he might squeak through. so i'm trying to get every conservative voter in this state to decide that while they may like somebody else that historically we need to get the vote for gingrich. >> and here is another view. not to be outdone, rick santorum also lashed out at gingrich this morning passing the punch back to him. let's listen. >> nobody else in this race has ever beat a democratic incumbent.

the hubris, and i might even go so far as to say the arrogance of speaker gingrich to suggest that i don't have the experience to run a campaign, to win a national campaign, having won four elections in four heavily democratic districts and states, he ran in one of the heaviest republican suburban districts of georgia with diversity being nonexistent in his electoral plans. >> he is getting strong there. mark, let me ask you about this possibility that we have a hard count tomorrow morning coming out of iowa. they're actually counting the precinct written reports to be certified. if it comes out that santorum actually did out point, get more votes in the caucuses a couple weeks ago than romney, will it matter? >> again, i don't want to create a misleading impression of what i think. romney is overwhelmingly the favorite to be the nominee. in the short term, i think he is still the favorite in this state.

if you are putting together a scenario where that doesn't happen, i think santorum has to really have a strong debate and other things to occur to have him be the alternative. if you have a combination of more polling showing gingrich strong in south carolina, romney losing the ability to argue that he won the first two contests, and a strong debate performance by gingrich, weak debate performance by romney, that all sets up i think again for gingrich, negative for romney, but i don't think santorum being declared the winner in iowa is enough to revitalize his prospects in this state but could be bad for romney. conservatives and others who want to stop him will look at that and say holy cow we're crowning a guy, assuming he loses south carolina who won his adopted home state and lost the first other two contests in the south and midwest. >> and i wonder how the lemings in the republican electorate, not all lemmings, but will say wait a minute i am supposed to vote for the guy who won the first two. how do i vote? if i don't vote for him in the third one he will have lost 2 of

3. they get very confused in terms of the automatic robotic voting simply for the guy because he got voted for. >> there is one problem. >> yes. >> the alternative may be newt gingrich. >> yeah. >> if it was anybody with like one-tenth of that baggage. >> i think you are picking a point. we'll get to newt gingrich's problems wholesale. >> i'm sure you will. >> it is a great irony that we like a fight even if we don't like one of the contestants. mark halperin, thank you. great analysis. thank you, david corn. coming up -- mitt romney admits he pays an effective tax rate of 15%. that's it. 15 cents on the dollar. he wants to cut taxes on the rich even more and get it below 15%. that's a pretty good deal for a guy that owns maybe a quarter of a billion dollars. this story isn't going away and it could prove to be mitt's biggest achilles heel should he be the nominee up against president obama. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] a raw nose can feel really sore.

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the obama administration has rejected the controversial keystone oil pipeline project, a decision hailed by environmentalists. the $7 billion pipeline would have carried oil from canada to refineries in texas. supporters said it would have created jobs and helped wean america off middle east oil. but the republicans in congress mandated that the president make a decision on the project by late next month, a deadline administration officials said doesn't leave enough time for environmental reviews.

what's the effective rate i've been paying? it's probably closer to the 15% rate because i think my last ten years i've -- my income comes overwhelmingly from investments made in the past. i get a little income from my book, but i gave that all away.

then i get speakers fees from time to time, but not very much. >> welcome back to "hardball." mitt romney in what appears to be an off-the-cuff remark about his income has laid bare what could be his greatest vulnerability this year. his immense wealth, low tax rate, and the fact his tax plan he is putting forth would benefit rich people like him. most based on romney's comments yesterday, the left -- based on it, the left leaning think progress organization is out with a wanted poster for mitt calling him the tax loophole exploiter in chief. and the progressive pac american bridge 21st century made a new web video. let's watch. >> i got a little income from my book but gave that all away. and then i get speakers fees from time to time but not very much. then i get speakers fees from time to time but not very much.

[ laughter ] not very much. >> well, will romney's tin ear fit perfectly into the obama campaign strategy to emphasize the president's defense of the middle class? bob shrum is a democratic warrior and joan walsh is editor at large from salon. you've been through these wars before with romney and had a good candidate ted kennedy and walloped the guy in the end. let's talk about the facts. what do you think bugs the average voter who is going to vote next november most? the fact the guy is simply worth so much money? that bothers some people. not everybody. he is worth about a quarter billion it looks like. the fact that he's paid somewhere around 15 perhaps less he says closer could be closer from below than you think than he is willing to suggest or that he's for a tax break that's even greater for the rich. put all three together. what individually bugs people the most? >> i don't think the first thing particularly bugs people. the kennedys were rich. the roosevelts were rich. people had the sense they cared

about them. that they fought for the middle class. that they tried to create a society of greater economic justice. what you get with mitt romney is not only someone who pays close to 15%, and by the way i'll bet that may be under 15%. >> he didn't say it was above. >> right. and i also will bet they'll only release one year 2011 that they can engineer to the needs of the campaign. obama's released his all the way back to 2002. we need to see all of these to see if there were years we didn't pay taxes at all. i think it does bug people and when you combine it with the gaffes that keep on giving, and that's romney's style, he's becoming the face of the 1%. and in that sense, he may be the strongest of a weak republican field, but he could turn out to be an ideal foil for the president and for the argument he's making about standing up for economic justice. >> joan, it's like he speaks another language that he's been told not to use. i'm not talking about french, which is fine with me. i like french. it's a beautiful language. he seems to speak a language of incredibly wealthy people who really think in terms of the

fact that $350,000 a year is chicken feed when in fact it is seven times the national average. i know compared to the 250 million he owns it may be small. >> right. >> but it's huge. when you're talking the public where people are struggling, the working poor in this country for xrchl hear that and go, what is he talking about? >> the working poor, the middle class. my favorite part of that clip is when he kind of giggles at the end like it's not very much. is he giggling because he knows he is lying or because he really means it's not very much? his speaking fees alone, chris, put him in the top 1% of all income earners as income. that in itself is unbelievable. then there are the millions and millions of dollars on top of that. so bob is right. he is really the perfect candidate for this political and economic climate, and by perfect i mean great for the democrats. he is mr. 1% and increasingly every time he opens his mouth he says something really stupid about issues of class and wealth

and inequality in this country. he can't get it right. >> let's take a look at some of those comments he's made. you could call them in sports terminology, unforced errors in the campaign. most having to do with wealth. let's listen because there is a pattern here. let's look for it. >> corporations are people, my friend. we can raise taxes on -- of course they are. >> i know what it's like to worry whether you're going to get fired. there are a couple times i wondered whether i'd get a pink slip. >> rick, i tell you what. 10,000 bucks? $10,000 bet? >> i'm not in the betting business. >> okay. >> i want individuals to have their own insurance. that means the insurance company will have an incentive to keep you healthy. it also means if you don't like what they do, you can fire them. i like being able to fire people who provide services to me. >> there is something there. i am not, you know, let's start with you. i know you've written ads for people. there is something in the way i guess you call it his idiom, his way of talking, that sounds like appropriate to a board room

meeting with a bunch of other wealthy guys or some other corporate leaders where you can talk like that. maybe the new york athletic club years ago when they talk about i love to see the -- what is it i love to see the workers work or something like that. it's a condescending -- i don't know whether it's nasty exactly. it just doesn't sound right to a guy who is trying to get people to vote for him. >> look. he walks with millionaires and billionaires and lacks any sense of the common touch. when you listen to him, for example, say he likes to fire people, they try to explain it away by saying, well, he is talking about health insurance companies. he doesn't understand the problem in this country isn't that people can't fire their health insurance companies. it is their health insurance companies fire them when they get sick. and they're left all on their own maybe with a terminal illness. but i think what's happened is that stuart stevens his consultant has very tightly scripted him. that is mostly what we've seen in the debates. every time he gets off the leash, he goes out there and says one of those things that i

think reveals a lot about who he really is. >> well said. >> and who he really cares about. >> when are we going to get a good look at that, bob? when are we going to get a full show of the real mitt not a guy 95% scripted with things like lucille ball and big foot and the kardashians all written by stu stevens obviously and when he does stuff off the cuff this horrible old big shot talk? >> i think that's the right word. something like an old money think. >> i think assuming he wins the nomination, the debates with obama are going to be very tough for him because he's not going to get away for example on bain capital with saying how dare you attack the free enterprise system because it is not that bain didn't have some successful companies. the question he won't answer is how there were companies that failed even if they got a federal bailout where everybody got laid off and he, himself, and his partners made tens of millions of dollars? >> right. >> that is the question he has to answer because it is vulture capitalism. >> last word john quickly. your thoughts about the idiom. what is worse about the guy when

he says stuff that isn't true or says stuff that really is true to him? i mean, i got to wonder. >> they're both terrible. i just want to say his father was the first to release his tax returns. he released 12 years of tax returns. so if mitt wants to be just half the man his father was he can release six. and then we can see what kind of tax loopholes he is taking advantage of. that is my compromise proposal for mitt romney. >> good work on the comparison to walking with millionaires and keeping the common touch. what a poetic guy you are. thank you, bob and joan. up next chris christie didn't want to run for president himself but there is one job he would jump at. that's next in the side show. there's a regular guy. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

back to "hardball." now for the side show.

first up governor chris christie of new jersey still won't say whether he would accept an offer to be mitt romney's running mate. while christie says he isn't anxious to leave his post in new jersey, but if you heard him this morning there is one job that wouldn't have christie thinking even twice about skipping town. let's hear what he had to say earlier today on "morning joe." >> your next project is to turn around the new york mets. >> pitchers and catchers report i'm in physical pain over that. physical pain. >> even you couldn't turn around the mets at this point. >> don't say that now, willie. my number, you got it. give me a call. general manager christie. let me tell you something, people of new jersey, i got to go. i've been offered the general manager of the mets. it's time for me to move on. >> that is terrible. >> he's talking northern new jersey. that is the fire in the belly he has missing or certainly had missing when he decided not to run for president this time. i think he would have been a heck of a candidate. more from the politics and sports front. former nba star kareem abdul

jabar was appointed by hillary clinton today to a cultural ambassador position. in his new role, the basketball legend will travel the world to mentor young people in many different areas of the world, including education, the high-ranking clinton, by the way, found herself in a somewhat lower position this afternoon, i should say, physically as she made the appointment official. let's watch this comparison of heights here. >> we're thrilled that you have agreed to do this. i know you'll be going to brazil later i think in the month and what a great opportunity to meet with and talk to young people. a great story that you not only tell but exemplify from the streets of harlem to the nba and all you're doing with your foundation. we also think it's terrific. >> i have to brag a little bit here. kareem actually watched me and my friends play basketball once. we were outside at the basketball court up in holy

cross. he stopped by in his car, looked out of the window and we said there he is. he might go to this school. he went to ucla instead. when newt gingrich calls barack obama food stamp president he knows exactly what he is doing. it's called code, racial code to appeal to a certain type of unpleasant voter. he is not the only republican doing this stuff this year talking this language. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

welcome back to "hardball." one of the biggest stories for monday night's big debate was newt gingrich's exchanges about race with debate moderator juan williams.

his comments at the debate weren't the first time in this political cycle that a republican presidential candidate used what many believed to be and i believed to be racial code or dog whistle to appeal to a certain type of voter. let's watch. >> president obama is the most successful food stamp president in american history. >> i don't want to make people's lives better by giving them somebody else's money. i want to give them the opportunity to go out and earn the money. >> i'm saying the state of texas is under assault by federal government. i'm saying also that south carolina is at war with this federal government and with this administration. >> if the naacp invites me, i'll go to their convention and talk about why the african-american community should demand paychecks and not be satisfied with food stamps. >> joining us right now are a

couple people to talk about these statements. congresswoman donna edwards from nearby maryland representing an area near washington and professor james peterson is director of africana studies at lehigh. thank you both for coming. i'll sit back. i had my say on this last night. it's your turn. the dog whistle. i said in the opening you don't have to be an airedale to hear this dog whistle. it is loud and clear. your thoughts? >> that's what i think. it is not a dog whistle or code anymore but plain as day. i think the american people get this, and we don't want to take a 50-year step back in history. that's what these republican candidates are doing. i think frankly that they're doing it because they want to take us off the fact that there is great income inequality in this country and they'd rather divide poor white people and poor black people and middle income black people and middle income white people instead of focusing on the fact that we need to create jobs in this country and opportunities because far too many people are on food stamps because of the bad policies and the dangerous policies of the republican

party. >> professor? >> i agree with that whole heartedly. this is the politics of distraction for sure. my sense here is that we, kudos to you, chris, for the let me finish segment last night. we're going to need more allies in this battle to sort of confront the ways in which republican politics is embracing these racialized discourses. ron williams has kind of been the punching bag on npr. for him to come in and mr. williams to be disrespected that way and so much of a robust applause for the dismissal by speaker gingrich of the idea that someone might be offended by being sort of implicated in their sort of racial organization of how food stamps are applied in this country is absurd. >> if you think i am intimidating gingrich, we're all wrong. here he is trying to capitalize off that exchange on monday. take a look at the latest gingrich ad called "the moment." >> only newt gingrich can beat

obama. >> more people have been put on food stamps by barack obama than any president in american history. i'm going to continue to find ways to help poor people learn how to get a job, learn how to get a better job, and learn some day to own the job. i'm newt gingrich and i approve this message. >> you sure do. here is some evidence gingrich's tactics we've been talking about may be working in south carolina. listen to this exchange from a gingrich event earlier today. >> i would like to thank you, mr. speaker, for putting mr. juan williams in his place the other night. [ applause ] his supposed question was totally ludicrous. we support you. >> thank you very much. >> well, there is some old time language, guys. congresswoman, put him in his place. >> well, again -- >> i don't know, scarlett o'hara

country here. i'm waiting for the uppity word to come here. >> you know it's coming. across this country speaker gingrich knows full well the reason so many people are on food stamps in this country is because we haven't done what -- the republicans in this congress haven't actually put forward a single jobs bill to get people back to work and more people are receiving food stamps whether they are black or white or in between because people are struggling. and we want to make sure that they have the ability to take care of themselves and their families so this is not an accident that the republicans who are desperate for a nomination are using this to win in a republican primary, but i'll tell you something. this is not a loaf of bread that's going to sell any place else in this country. >> you know, professor, let me just tell you as a broadcaster and a political student, i have to tell you i haven't heard the phrase food stamps in years. >> right. >> in political discussion.

it's not something that most middle class people, fortunately, don't have to deal with that often because they don't rely on them. if you're poor you certainly do. if you're below the poverty line you're eligible. but it is not like a conversation like talking about the redskins or the eagles or politics or who is winning this or the conversation you have normally in politics about the economy or how things are going or who is doing well. you don't bring it up except for one purpose. >> exactly. >> i don't know anybody else that brought it up in this campaign except newt. why he did it i think is transparent. >> it is absolutely transparent. mr. gingrich is aware of the fact almost 60% of the people receiving this kind of assistance are white folk which is fine. we don't want to play into this sort of racialized politics but the bottom line is he is also a student of history so he knows the ways in which history, in history we've discussed some of these things and they have been racialized, particularly welfare and food stamps. >> welfare queen. >> exactly. >> ronald reagan, excuse me for using an old-time phrase, young buck. >> exactly. >> coming in the line at the safeway with food stamps to buy

gin with. that was pretty graphic to put it likely. >> gingrich understands all of that and it's political cowardice. he's playing to the basis elements of a sort of minority, even within his own party. >> i agree. >> the idea you have to lecture black folk who are descended from slave people in this country about work ethic is offensive to my family, the people in my community, and people all over this country. we cannot conduct american politics in this way. >> how about 250 years without pay? >> how about that? how about that. >> thank you. congresswoman donna edwards, i've always been a big supporter and i'm proud to say. and professor peterson, a member of the patriot league and great rival holy cross. up next president obama is no longer getting pushed around by the pentagon. an interesting story coming up. really interesting. "inside baseball." instead he is the one doing the pushing. the commander in chief. a very interesting development we haven't known about according to a new book by journalist

michael hastings, the guy who blew the whistle on mcchrystal.

new poll numbers on the presidential race should mitt romney win the republican nomination. let's check the "hardball" scoreboard. nationwide, here it is. president obama ahead of romney 45/44. not bad. a five-point spread according to the new ppp poll. it's a five-point spread, as i said. but look at the key battleground state of ohio. obama and romney are much closer in the buckeye state. obama up by two. don't bet on it according to a new quinnipiac poll. it's obama 44 and romney 42 and that is within a margin of error. the polls were taken before we learned romney pays an effective tax rate of just 15%. i think that would be called a push poll. here we go. we'll be right back.

we're back. back in june of 2010 president obama made a dramatic decision and fired his top commander in afghanistan stanley mcchrystal after a story in "rolling stone" magazine quoted mcchrystal and his top staff criticizing the white house and even making fun of vice president biden himself. michael hastings wrote the story and is out with a new book now about the incident about mcchrystal and about the president's relationship with the pentagon. it's a relationship that has evolved he argues significantly. the book is called "the operators, the wild and terrifying inside story of america's war in afghanistan." michael hastings joins us now. thank you very much. i'm very skeptical about that war. i always believed that once we leave, they're still there. >> right. >> you can't affect the time

after you leave. let's get to the quotes. you begin your book with this telling quote from former president or late president john f. kennedy after the bay of pigs fiasco. the s.o.b.s with all their fruit salad just sat there nodding saying it would work. he's talking there about -- the s.o.b.s are the top generals and admirals. he said don't worry we'll beat the cubans with our cuban exiles. what is your view of the president of the united states now and how he has evolved from the time he walked in there? >> you can make the argument that obama had his bay of pigs moment with the escalation in afghanistan. essentially a young commander in chief comes into office. i have a scene in the book where when he goes over to the pentagon the brass and generals he is meeting with, they say he is intimidated by the crowd. didn't have the respect that one would usually have for the commander in chief. nine months later they wage a campaign to get as many troops as possible and box the president in. it's been that fight. >> are the top admirals and generals generally republican? >> they have been.

mcchrystal wasn't but remember the last three defense secretaries have been republican. throughout that bureaucracy at the pentagon there are republicans everywhere. obama is going into hostile territory and how he's done that over the two years is i think one of the under reported -- >> how does a president like that, a center left guy on foreign policy like i am. >> sure. >> how does he influence a right wing or center right military? how does he begin to make it his presidency? he is commander in chief. he was elected. they weren't. how does he bring about his policy with these guys? >> do it by firing a general. you do it by putting in your own guy there, leon panetta. you do it by getting rid of the other celebrity general david petraeus who is now over at cia. >> do you think that was purposeful to get him out of the combat situation? >> i write about this. the white house's fear is -- >> i fear it, too. the guys in the middle up in new york. >> i think it's a very valid fear. whether -- >> although it didn't work with huntsman very well did it?

>> well -- >> no. you give him a job and he comes back and runs against you anyway. >> petraeus would probably pull 20 times higher than huntsman. >> let's take a look at a dramatic moment in 2010 when the president announced general mcchrystal's dismissal. following the release of your article. here it is. >> conduct represented in the recently published article does not meet the standard that should be set by a commanding general. it undermines the civilian control of the military that is at the core of our democratic system. i welcome debate among my team but won't tolerate division. >> one of the geniuses of the constitution, we made the president the commander in chief. the top military person is our highest official. the american people are represented, it hasn't been honored, sometimes they have been dragged in wars. your thought about this president. is he in charge? >> i think he really is. he overruled secretary gates twice on two big operations,

libya and the bin laden raid. >> gates did not want to go in libya, with bin laden he wanted to do a missile strike. >> perhaps the same result but we won't have known it was him. >> it could have been potentially disastrous in pakistan. >> how could you have proven it? >> say we shot in their territory, we wouldn't get the credit in our own morale, they would be able to claim he was alive. they had to get his teeth to make sure it was him. and put him in the ocean. >> they made sure it was him. catch him, kill him if you have to, make sure it's him. >> right. but that is the confidence, this is the growth and confidence of president obama in terms of how --. >> this is still disturbing, you wrote the afghanistan war, you

were talking about one specific offense in the helmand province. you said it represents the warped logic of the war. i think the whole war is warped, you can't win a counter insurgency if you leave. "we're there because we're there. and because we're there, we're there some more. it is against every martial instinct to withdraw, to retreat to leave land where blood was spilled, therefore the biggest challenge to war, you go in a third world country, have to come home. if you come home people always say all that was wasted. >> general mcchrystal said we're only half wades there in afghanistan. he wants ten more years. >> to do what? >> do what they have been doing. >> can you kill all the taliban who dislike you? >> no, you can't. every general knows that, that is mitt romney said he won't negotiate with the taliban it's none sens. >> it's the taliban an ideology? our presence encourages young people to be in it.

>> 95% of the people pose no lie liability liability. the taliban are enemies because we're in the villages where they are. they think they are fighting the soviets. they have never heard of september 11th. they see a couple white guys. >> why did obama increase the troops in the surge? >> i think he was boxed in. he made a promise on the campaign trial to focus on afghanistan, originally gave 21,000. >> that is no excuse to surge. i was with biden. >> biden was right. >> biden said go to counter terrorism, we're not fighting a civil war. >> we're moving --. >> i know this sounds awful they are one of the contending forces of the country. it's their country. thank you, michael hastings, great book.

"the operators" thank you michael. >> thank you, sir. >> when we get back, we finish with the robotic republican nominating process, they are acting like robots, inching toward mitt romney, not giving eight whole lot of thought or any heart. does anybody really want this guy? you're watching "hardball" on msnbc.

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let me finish tonight with this. words coming tomorrow morning of the official results. iowa caucuses, mitt romney says it doesn't matter who won. doesn't matter? a competition is people put millions of dollars into, he spent that campaign fighting. it doesn't matter who won? is that what he's saying? then i thought, you know romney is right, it served the purpose, saved him in new hampshire, had santorum got the win, romney would have had to come to new hampshire a loser, desperate to win at home when he couldn't win at home. he needed to win at home the country at large rejected him. he had the benefits of the being the winner, he won in new hampshire, made him the winner of the two two contests. signedly his turn, he was the person that good republicans were meant to vote for, should vote for. this with many who are not republican find odd, they wait for the person waiting in line and vote for him.

they did with nixon, reagan, bush, dole, bush, jr. and mccain. you vote for the guy whose turn it is, leave it at that. ask a republican why they are all of a sudden telling pollsters they like romney? because he's going to be the nominee the right thing to do is support him? is that all it is? what is it mr. and mrs. republican that lit up your charts for romney? that he's won in iowa, new hampshire. what if it turns out when you get the paper account that he didn't win in iowa, would you be for him? or is the relish you he wait -- real issue, clearly no one would have given a guy who was governor of massachusetts and spent his summers in the house in new hampshire any big credit for winning new hampshire against a big field of outsiders. so this is the odd part. republicans are voting for a guy in the national polls right now because it looks like he's the candidate they are supposed to. therefore they will. one thing i can say, republicans