baratunde thurston. thanks for joining me tonight. you can see the very last word on our website. romney's war on poverty. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, oops, he did it again. mitt romney made another of those unforced errors today that has plagued his campaign when he said he's not concerned about the very poor. it's yet another opportunity for democrats to paint him as a rich guy out of touch with regular americans and worse yet someone not really interested in getting in touch with them. and now the senate is moving on that buffet rule to make sure some very rich people like romney can't avoid paying their

fair share of taxes. yes in the eyes of the democrats you can just as easily replace buffet's name with romney's. plus what about newt gingrich? he didn't call romney last night to congratulate him. are you kidding? he didn't concede to romney in florida. he didn't even mention mitt romney's name. newt gingrich's performance, his at times delusional speech last night, left republicans wondering is newt ready to take the gop down in his quest to bring down romney? just how much is newt willing to hurt the man who has spent millions hurting him? and you may have heard gingrich say this last night. >> many of you may have noticed the obama administration has declared war on the catholic church and other religious institutions. >> well, newt is talking about the obama administration's recent decision to force catholic institutions including hospitals and universities to pay for birth control including iuds that run counter to the teachings of the church. the administration says the decision is based on health concerns but church leaders say

it violates religious freedom. we'll have that debate here tonight. and new tapes from the day president kennedy was shot. >> i wish to god there was something that i could do, and i wanted to tell you that we were grieving with you. >> yes, well thanks, thank you very much. >> that is president lyndon johnson newly sworn in con soelg the president's mother. we have more of the kennedy tapes for you tonight. finally let me finish the dual going on right now between newt gingrich and mitt romney and how it reminds me of the aaron burr and alexander hamilton real thing. we begin with mitt romney saying he is not concerned about the very poor. john harris is editor-in-chief of politico and joan walsh the editor of salon. in all fairness we'll show the whole thing. this isn't the first time mitt has said he was focused on the middle class. nbc reported this afternoon he said something similar in october but his choice of words this morning were certainly eye-popping for people like me and everyone watching. let's listen to what this front running candidate for the republican nomination for

president said on cnn today. >> i'm in this race because i care about americans. i'm not concerned about the very poor. we have a safety net there. if it needs repair i'll fix it. i'm not concerned about the very rich. they're doing just fine. i'm concerned about the very heart of america, the 90%, 95% of americans who right now are struggling. >> i think there are lots of very poor americans who are struggling who would say, that sounds odd. can you explain that? >> well, you had to finish the sentence, soledad. i said i'm not concerned about the very poor that have a safety net but if it has holes in it i will repair them. we will hear from the democrat party the plight of the poor and there is no question it's not good being poor and we have a safety net to help those that are very poor. but my campaign is focused on middle income americans. my campaign -- you could choose where to focus. focus on the rich? that's not my focus. you can focus on the very poor. that's not my focus.

>> you know, john, i don't know how to explain this guy. he gets deeper and deeper into this pit of strange talk. he's talking about being president of all the people and basically writing off people he doesn't think about or care about. he is saying i only care about i guess the segment of voters he thinks will be the swing voters and is openly saying i don't really care about them. he says it's an odd thing when he says we hear from the democrat party, the plight of the poor. there is no question it's not good being poor. there is no question it's not good being poor. what does he mean by that? >> well, i certainly agree with you, chris, he has a pretty bad case of foot in mouth disease with the way he put that quote in. it seemed like he was given a chance to clean it up in the interview and didn't take advantage of that. i mean, i can't pretend that i don't know what he was trying to say and said inartfully which is the focus of his policy proposals is aimed at the middle class. the focus of what his specific policy remedies are trying to achieve. so i don't think he was saying

what you said and the way you characterized that, chris. >> i'm just reading the transcript. we can read it again. the plight of the poor and there is no question it's not being poor. it's not good being poor and we have a safety net to help them that are very poor but my campaign is focused on middle income americans. my campaign, well you can focus on the rich. that's not my focus. you can focus on the very poor. that's not my focus. well, i'll play it as it lays. what do you think, joan? >> well, chris, you know, i appreciate john trying to give the man the benefit of the doubt but he's got a problem. he looks like he is somebody doing an imitation trying very hard to do an imitation of a regular guy and he keeps saying things like this. so that's problem number one. in terms of what he actually said, i think we need to call him on the fact that his policy, he supports the ryan budget. the ryan budget cuts a lot of programs for low income people. so, you know, he talks about the

safety net like it's some kind of hammock and the poor are just lying in it while the rest of us work. that's garbage. and finally, his tax plan actually raises taxes on the lowest 20% of americans while it gives a tax break to millionaires. so in terms of very specific policy he is not out to help the poor. he may well hurt the poor. we should say that. >> i want to get back to something that's real. i don't think i'm looking for something that isn't there. you know there are a lot of people, when you drive through washington at 6:00 in the morning there were some really struggling people getting up at 6:00 in the morning and tough neighborhoods. african-american neighborhoods a lot of them working very hard. they don't have much money. they're poor. they're poor and they're working. do you think he knows there are people who go to work every day who are poor, that they don't lie in a hammock, they're not taken care of? do you think he gets it? i'm talking about the reality of life in this country. >> i'm talking about the reality of life for many millions of

people, what you describe there is very remote from mitt romney's experiences. there is no question about that. for that matter it's remote from the experiences of many people in our profession who in journalism cover these campaigns. >> i agree with that. >> the fact of the matter is most democrats also put the -- make their political appeals aimed at the middle class rather than the poor. poverty has not been endemmic, lasting, deep rooted poverty has not been a leading agenda item in this country for a long time. the one politician who tried to put it there recently was john edwards. perhaps not the ideal messenger in retrospect but poverty has not been on the agenda. the points that joan is making that the safety net is not some kind of hammock for most people in this country, we're far removed from that debate. >> it just seems strange. it is one thing not to be reading "the other america" every weekend over and over again, a great book about that very world but the show, i found it calloused and weird. romney has a history of making

comments that would seem to indicate he is not very concerned about the poor. here is what he said in october to a newspaper editorial board in las vegas about the foreclosure crisis. let's watch this. >> don't try and stop the foreclosure process. let it run its course and hit the bottom, allow investors to buy homes, put renters in them. fix the homes up, and let it turn around and come back up. >> i love it. get the people out of the houses they live in and they own. they can't pay their mortgages and fix up the houses and rent them to renters. anyway, let's look. today here just today president obama responded indirectly to those comments by romney. let's listen to the president. >> it is wrong for anybody to suggest that the only option for struggling, responsible home owners is to sit and wait for the housing market to hit bottom. i refuse to accept that and so do the american people. >> do you think there is a smart

political calculation in recognizing there is tension between the middle class and the poor and actually between the middle class and the rich? the democrats are focusing on the tension between the rich and the middle class talking about the buffet rule making sure the rich pay their taxes and don't escape scott free. there is tension i believe between the middle and the top. but is it, do you think the republicans realize there is a tension between the poor and the middle class and they're playing on that distinction, john? >> well, that tension is one that was exploited for a long time. i haven't seen it be as much of a feature of politics in recent years but in decades past that was a critical tension. the so-called lunch bucket voter feeling that people on welfare were ripping him or her off. i don't know that i think newt gingrich, excuse me, mitt romney was trying to revive the politics of george wallace or richard nixon from the early 70s but i do think in his remarks including on the foreclosures he reveals that these are kind o

abtractons to him rather than a real understanding of the human dimension of real people getting booted out of their homes or facing enormous economic distress. he is discussing this as though at a great distance. >> i think he is looking at it from the position of a person who owns a lot of property, joan, someone who is thinking about how to make best use of their property. do they let people continue to scrape the money together and try to pay their mortgages off or dump them from the property, foreclose on them and start renting the property? it is the point of view of a land owner not somebody struggling to own a house. >> exactly. it is exactly the perspective of a wealthy person, a person involved in banking, a person involved in real estate, who doesn't simply doesn't get that for most of us our houses if we own a house, it's the only asset we own. and we invest our hopes and dreams in it.

when people lose their homes, many of them are losing everything. and that's what's happened in this housing crisis. you've seen people slide back into poverty. you've seen african-americans and latino families lose most of their net worth after fighting so hard to gain it. so every time he opens his mouth on a topic like this he does reveal a compassion deficit, an empathy gap that he just hasn't spent any time in the shoes of people who have to worry about money or housing. >> well the two best comments made so far i think are yours and soledad's. soledad's question to the candidate was you don't think poor people struggle just middle class people struggle? and you're used to the word hammock which i will never forget, that the safety net is not a hammock. john and i think both appreciate it because it teaches us that even though you get a break from the government if you're really bad off it does not make your life good. it is not a good life to be poor. anybody who thinks so is oblivous to life on this planet.

>> most poor people work. >> get up at 6:00 in the morning, drive through d.c. the poor neighborhoods. people are waiting at bus stops not going off to disney land. >> right. >> or the golf course. they're going to tough jobs making beds and doing jobs that don't pay enough to get you above the poverty line. thanks for joining us as always the head of politico. joan walsh of course from out west. coming up newt gingrich didn't call mitt romney last night to congratulate him. you think he ever will? he didn't even concede losing in florida last night. this is hot. it's nasty. he also gave a rather delusional speech last night, newt gingrich did, about what he is going to do the first several days he is president of the united states. that guy is a long way from running this one. you're watching "hardball" right now only on msnbc. [ female announcer ] new and improved swiffer dusters with dust lock adhesive can clean virtually every surface in your home. ♪ its thousands of fluffy fibers pick up dust here, there,

pretty much everywhere. and swiffer dusters traps 3 times more dust than a feather duster. and locks it away. ♪ swiffer cleans better or your money back. ♪ get around so i get claritin clear for strong, non-drowsy relief of all my allergies like dust mold pets and pollen. looks good. thanks. i live claritin clear. catch this news. president obama now leads all four republican challengers in the crucial battleground state of ohio. according to a ppp poll. president obama has a

seven-point lead in ohio 49-42. the president beats newt gingrich by 12. 51-39. he beats ron paul by 10 48-38. the republican who does best against obama in ohio, rick santorum. the president and santorum just six, 48-42. watch santorum going for vp. he wants to be on romney's ticket.

i think florida did something very important coming on top of south carolina. it is now clear that this will be a two-person race between the conservative leader newt gingrich and the massachusetts moderate. [ applause ] >> wow. welcome back to "hardball." that was a defiant newt gingrich last night in a speech that made no mention of conceding a huge

loss to rival mitt romney down in florida. gingrich plans to come back from the florida defeat and continue to fight for the republican nomination all the way but does he think he can win it or is he simply look tog tear down romney? david corn and dede meyer served as white house press secretary for president clinton. my sense is that romney has humiliated and hurt newt gingrich. he's not always a nice guy. in fact rarely so. >> right. >> but he has been pounded so hard personally, his reputation torn to shreds, it's going to be a long walk back for this guy to say good luck mr. romney. >> no question. but i mean this is a particularly nasty campaign as we've seen 92% of the ads run by both the campaigns and the super pacs were negative. that's probably an unprecedented number. we haven't gone back and looked but this is just desperately negative. that said, there have been a lot of negative campaigns where the losers have graciously reached out to the winner not because it is the right thing to do, because it is in their

self-interests. >> why is it in newt's self-interest? >> because he has a chip with the romney supporters who watch it that night who said -- he might get their vote in november. he might get their money. he might get their support. if he is going to be the nominee he needs to bring the party together. doing things like this -- it's newt's job to do that. if newt is up there, if he wins. >> oh, if he wins. >> yeah. it's in his interest. >> i see. >> i'm saying if you're newt and you think you're in -- >> would you do it? >> of course. you have to do it. you know that in politics. >> but it's about self-interest. >> there are two things going on here. one is his own spite and bile prevents him from doing this.

the other thing is i do think he believes he has a chance to win. and why? because romney still is not right with the base. you know, 33% of the republican electorate still doesn't want romney and anything can happen. >> you guys are smart. you think romney should be thinking like a winner not a loser. >> newt is the last man standing and has to play this out. the question we have is whether he is going to lead picket's charge and try to win this time or whether he is going to become the suicide bomber that blows everything up in the gop. >> you're following my advice i wrote in a book once and forgot about. don't get mad. don't get even. get ahead. >> and look like a winner to be a winner. >> you believe if he really thinks he has a chance to win he'll be a little more charming. here gingrich vowed to take the republican primary fight as you suggest through every state of the country. let's listen to his plan. >> you'll notice the number of folks are holding up a sign about 46 states to go.

we did this in part for the elite media because, you know, the same people who said i was dead in june and july and said i was gone after iowa who seem totally quiet the night of the south carolina victory are now going to be back saying what is he going to do? what is he going to do? i want to reassure them tonight. we are going to contest every place and we are going to win and we will be in tampa as the nominee in august. >> well, by the way, i don't think the elite media or any media i know doesn't want newt to take this fight -- we like this fight. it is a good fight to watch and maybe important to watch. this morning on the "today" show mitt romney the front-runner said gingrich didn't even call him last night. >> actually newt didn't call after iowa or new hampshire. i called him after south carolina, his win there but dent call again last night. the other candidates all called. i don't know. i guess speaker gingrich doesn't have our phone number. >> now there. >> i love that.

>> it's rubbing it in. he is rubbing it in. >> that's not that appealing either. he could have said well he didn't call me. you know. >> he didn't have my phone number. whenever he does that laugh. >> ho, ho. >> but we've talked about this before. newt gingrich is not a nice person. he comes across as mean and nasty. >> do you think he is? >> i think he's maybe gracious -- i polite. >> have you ever had somebody spend $16 million in florida alone to destroy your reputation? not to disagree about iran or something. this guy is a bad person. $16 million. >> for 34 years newt gingrich has called democrats nazis, and communist socialists. he says obama wants to destroy the country. he has no claim to having a more dignified debate. >> two wrongs don't make a right. >> yes. here is another reason to worry about it. newt is not in control of his emotions right? he is feeling hurt. what happens if he is president of the united states and gets in

a tiff with netanyahu and netanyahu wants to call and talk about their plans to bomb iran? you know, you can't do that when you're playing at this level. >> it is not personal. it's business. >> exactly. you need to watch that. >> let's look at last night. a couple things. he talked about the obama -- let's take a look at romney, actually at newt last night. here he is. newt trying to make his speech all about his ideas and proposals for a possible gingrich administration. this was the most informative look at a presidency to be i've ever seen. he went through every bill he is going to sign, every executive order he is going to sign, all his foreign policy issues where he'll have the u.s. embassy in israel. everything. the most detailed probably ever. let's listen. >> i will ask them to immediately pass the repeal of obama care. i will ask them to immediately pass the repeal of the dodd/frank bill. the very first executive order will abolish all of the white house czars.

all this is going to happen about two hours after the inaugural address. okay? before we get to go to the various balls that night, we are going to have a work period. this is going to be a working presidency. >> and i'm going to have ice cream after dinner every night. i mean, it's like boys state or girls state here. what i'm going to do. >> well, you know, another point in the speech he said, i've been studying what america must do since 1958. he was 15 in 1958. so when you talk about having these grand ideas -- >> i believe that. >> yeah, yeah. >> you knew what you'd do. >> i knew what i was going to say about it. >> once again it wasn't a particularly effective speech. it was somewhere between being petulent and giving a visionary speech. >> you can be the masters of the cloth and decide in a minute what romney should do to bring this guy into good order. on "morning joe" which was great this week romney continued his

ridicule of gingrich in jerry's down on south beach. >> sometimes i have to chuckle when i listen to people think newt gingrich is the conservative in this race. my record is conservative. i believe that people in this country will recognize that as time goes on. here in florida tea partiers and people who call themselves conservatives voted in a majority for me. that's a good sign. >> sometimes i have to chuckle. i'd like to be there. i still think he looks like the hall of the presidents. >> yes. >> where the guy stands up, the statue of the president? >> yeah. >> what do you think? he doesn't know about the poor. i think he is treating newt like one of the poor people. >> right. you know, when he gets off his talking points and lets his true colors fly, he shows -- >> shoe colors? >> true colors. >> by the way, i was in my bus stop in northwest philadelphia recently, northwest washington recently and i saw this beautiful mature woman like a european film star at the bus stop. it was you. you have your portrait on one of these bus stops in d.c.

>> i did for a while. >> what was that product? >> jones new york the clothing maker. >> it was tasteful and classy. >> thank you. >> thank you, david and dee dee. >> on behalf of jones new york, thank you. why newt gingrich is beginning to remind people of his famous monty python bid. you're watching "hardball." remember this one? only on msnbc.

back to "hardball" now for the side show. first up no giving up. newt gingrich is standing by his decision to stick out the race until the convention in august but with pro romney's super pac's shelling out the bombard voters with negative ads about the former speaker newt's campaign could be in pieces by convention time.

take this e-mail released by politico. quote, newt equals the black knight in monty python. monty python had his legs and arms chopped off in battle. still wanted to fight. here is how the black knight fights on even when he has been dealt enough blows to have lost all his limbs. >> i'm invincible. >> you're a looney. >> all right. we'll call it a draw. >> i see. running away, hey? come back here and take what's coming to you. i'll bite your legs off! >> that's cruel. just like in that duel newt shouldn't count on team romney to back off no matter how much damage they've done. they could just keep on whacking him as you saw there. next up, first lady michelle obama appeared on the tonight show last night. how did she think the rivalry stacks up between president obama and mitt romney? i mean about the two men's ability to carry a tune that is? let's hear the two contenders and the first lady's review.

♪ i am so in love with you ♪ for purple mountains majesty above the fruited plain ♪ >> did he say to you, honey, i'm going to sing? >> no. >> was that spontaneous? >> that was completely spontaneous. he does have a beautiful voice. >> did you hear mitt romney sing? what did you think? >> i saw it in the green room. >> right, right. >> it's beautiful. >> beautiful. >> that's class. and finally, when small becomes big the president's process is a mystery to people. who did alaska whose caucuses get little attention wind up with more delegates than south carolina? alaska with a population of just over 700,000 people will send 27 delegates to the convention in tampa. compare that to south carolina with a population close to 5 million but with only 25 delegates.

alaska ended up with this over sized delegation because the republican national committee penalized some states for moving up their primary dates. that brought to us care of the alaska dispatch newspaper. up next the obama administration is forcing religious institutions to pay for birth control as part of its health care reform law and that's got republicans and many religious leaders calling foul. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc.

welcome back to "hardball." the obama administration has suddenly found itself in a fight it would like to avoid of course with the catholic church. an issue about new rules under the administration's health care reform act that will require organizations like religious charities and hospitals including colleges to provide birth control insurance coverage for their employees. here's how new york cardinal designate timothy doan explained his objection to the regulation.

>> never before has the federal government forced individuals and organizations to go out into the market place and buy a product that violates their conscience. this shouldn't happen in a land where free exercise of religion ranks first in the bill of rights. >> joining me right now to explain this to everybody are "the washington post" reporter melinda hennen berger and melissa rogers a religion expert at the brookings institution. melissa also served as chair of president obama's advisory council on faith-based neighborhood partnerships. we have two experts. i want to understand this issue. melinda, explain, why did hhs under secretary sebelius do this right now during an election year? issue this requirement? >> okay. under the affordable care act, employers all have to provide free contraception to their employees. religious employers who make up a tiny percentage of employers in this country said we cannot do what violates our conscience.

what violates our church rules. give us an exemption of conscience not to be able just to be able to not give free contraception that we don't even believe in to our employees. this was sort of a worst case scenario where i'm trying to figure out how it could have been handled more poorly but i can't. so the president has a one on one meeting with the guy you just saw, tim dolan. >> archbishop of new york. >> yes. he is assured, they come out of it, he is feeling good. he comes out of it thinking, yes. this is going to be handled with some sensitivity. he understands our concerns. he gets it. and so at the last minute on january 20th, as everybody is showing up in town for the march for life, all of these catholics who support, who are pro life and who supported barack obama at great risk, i mean really

took on so much criticism, are really thrown under the bus. the woman sister carol keyan who single-handedly practically delivered, there had been no health care reform unless she who runs the catholic health association had supported it, is just left out to dry by him saying no, you have to violate your conscience to stay in the business that you feel god called you to do and serving the poor and the sick. >> okay. the way it was read from the pulpit on sunday was not just contraception being something that prevents the fertilization of the human egg by the sperm to be very technical but also what they call abortive methods like iuds and morning after pills. so the church sees a greater problem for them not just contraceptives narrowly defind. this is the issue. i'm asking you the politics, melissa. is everything she said right the way this happened? it's just a tragic conflict of view or what? >> i think the problem is yes melinda explained it very well,

the problem is that there is an exemption in the regulation but it's not broad enough so it doesn't cover these catholic -- it excludes things like most catholic universities, most social services organizations. >> it excludes the catholic universities. >> i'm sorry. it does not allow the catholic universities to refuse to provide this coverage. >> right. >> so they are subject to the mandate. >> so universities and hospitals and all have to basically provide insurance for their employees which includes no copay, full coverage for any form of birth control including morning after pills. and why did the administration believe, why did they do it? why did sebelius do this? let me be political here and not take sides on this though i do have a side. i think i do. i'm not sure actually. let me ask you this. why did they do it in the middle of an election year when you have a third or quarter of the country catholic and they are the swing voters? a lot of the other ethnic groups and religions are pretty much identified with a party. catholics tend to swing back and forth. they are the reagan democrats, the people that make up their mind maybe two weeks before an election.

you know? these are tricky voters. >> yeah. absolutely. i think they had a good goal in mind which is in my view expanded contraceptive coverage is a good thing. the problem is they've struck the wrong balance here on religious liberty. we shouldn't in my view require objecting religious employers to pay for and offer their employees a plan that they preach against every -- >> jay carney is trying to explain, i think a tough job for jay, explaining the reasoning for this mandate in yesterday's white house briefing. >> we will work with religious groups during a transitional period to discuss their concerns. but this decision was made after careful consideration by secretary sebelius. and we believe that the proposal strikes the appropriate balance between religious beliefs on the one hand and the need to increase access to important preventative services for women. >> well, it's a tough one because all the time the

government especially our democratic government or any government responsive to the voters, the people, tries to avoid fights with religious organizations. jewish, catholic, whatever. they try to avoid issues. >> religious freedom is built into our first amendment. this is not to me a tough call. i mean, the only exemption -- >> well will there be an appeal process? will the president back down or should he? i'm asking. >> the only exemption they have is for institutions that primarily treat their coreligionists so of course you don't want that. of course you want institutions to be open to all so now it's a double whammy where you're being really -- >> i'm very proud of the work my wife and i have done, minimal work but i am very proud of the work with catholic charities because as you just said it is open to everybody. everybody gets advantage of these things. >> that is the mission. >> this is a sad thing that there is this conflict. i think it is almost like beckett and history, this conflict between church and state and it ain't simple. >> i think we can fix this and i hope the president does. i think expanded contraceptive

coverage can be offered and even to employees of objecting religious organizations but we should just not require the objecting religious organizations themselves to pay for and offer that. i think there are other ways to solve this problem. >> the irony though is that the very strongly pro choice folks who push so hard for this are going to get nothing if obama is not re-elected because catholics don't turn out for him. there won't be a health care reform bill to argue over. >> watch this issue among reagan democrats. >> right. >> relatively conservative democrats who make up their mind each election who to vote for for president. melinda, you did a good job. melissa as well. thank you for coming on. maybe they'll find some way through this. up next new audiotapes of the day jack kennedy was assassinated. chilling stuff here about rose kennedy talking to lyndon johnson. kind of a cold conversation if you consider the situation. maybe everybody was in shock. you'll hear it in a minute. this is "hardball", only msnbc.

[ de ntis t ] chris thinks [ de the best way to live life

is to dig right in. but as his dentist, i know that to do that, he needs to use the brush more dentists use. oral-b. trust the brush more dentists and hygienists use. oral-b. life opens up when you do. congresswoman michelle bachmann says she is not negotiating with the romney campaign about endorsing the former massachusetts governor for president. the boston globe reported the talks were under way between the one-time rival camps but bachmann called on "the globe" to retract that report and denied others that said an endorsement of romney was imminent. bachmann's former debate coach moved over to the romney campaign and is credited with helping romney and those two dedebates leading up to last night's victory in florida for him.

we're back.

we're back. new tapes from president kennedy's assassination have been released adding to the story of this elusive hero. presidential historian and professor douglas brinkley joins us right now. thank you for joining us. here is a telephone conversation. you and i talked about it earlier today between rose kennedy, of course the mother of

john f. kenld, and newly sworn in president lyndon johnson and lady bird his wife aboard airforce one just hours after the shooting in dallas. let's listen to the brand new tape. >> president kennedy? >> yes, yes, mr. president. >> i wish to god there was something that i could do. i wanted to tell you that we were grieving with you. >> yes, well, thanks a million -- thank you very much. i know. i know you loved jack and he loved you. >> we are glad that the nation had your son. >> yes, yes. >> as long as it did. >> yes, well, thank you for that, lady bird. thank you very much. good-bye. >> love and prayers to all of you. >> thank you very much. >> you know, i don't know what to say, doug. it strikes me as a terse conversation. maybe it's all shock. not much heart there. it's strange. a strange conversation. >> it's very strange. and obviously there's no love lost between john f. kennedy and lyndon johnson but i think rose

kennedy was obviously in shock and had to take the phone call but didn't want to stay on the line very long. got off it probably just didn't help the scenario any that john f. kennedy is dead and he was killed in texas, lyndon johnson's state. >> would you really think that -- it's hard for me doing all the work on it, you've done it, too, about the relationship between jack kennedy. he picked johnson for his own needs to win texas and win some other southern states. they were never buddies before, probably never buddies again. what is your thinking about the real sentiment between those two? >> there was no relationship there by 1963. you know, bobby kennedy lived to loathe lyndon johnson, as did ted kennedy and the kennedy family. there was always a feeling that johnson's presidency wasn't real, that there was just a co-option of kennedy policies. and the proof is in the pudding. that bobby kennedy geared up to run in 1968 over vietnam and wanted to, you know in many

ways, help cripple johnson's presidency. >> yeah, i mean, kennedy said like -- he laughed at him as like a river boat gambler. he called him landslide because he only won that election. the '48 election of the senate by 48 votes. used to kid him about having a dishonest election. he felt uncomfortable being in his presence. he didn't like being in the same room at lyndon johnson. let's go to something really important. that's the vietnam war. here's a new tape that came out november 20th, 1963. just two days before the assassination. kennedy had his eye on the situation in vietnam that fall. here is just, as i said, just two days before he got killed, talking about what he was going to follow up with south vietnam. let's listen. >> they were going to have a briefing book for me by saturday. i think i ought to be back here till maybe seven. then i have to see cabot lodge on sunday. what is your sense about where we would have gone?

we went with 500,000 troops as our complement of troops over there. subsequent beginning in '65. do you think kennedy would have -- i have my own views. do you think kennedy would have escalated the way johnson did? >> i absolutely do not. the evidence is, i think, growing all the time that john f. kennedy would not have been suckered into vietnam the way lyndon johnson was. i say that was mike forstel. i'd written the book of his father and i used to interview him. john f. kennedy had gone to him and wanted a plan how to get out of there. there was a feeling it was a lost cause. kennedy gave a world peace speech. he was starting a new kind of foreign policy. the generals didn't do john f. kennedy, as you know, chris, from writing your own book, they didn't do him well by the cuban missile crisis. so the thought he'd be so overwhelmed by what the military was telling him about vietnam, the way johnson was, doesn't seem very likely. we'll never know because there

was an election in '64 that affected vietnam. we don't know if kennedy would have responded to a gulf of tonkin incident, on and on and on. but you cannot say that john f. kennedy wasn't looking for a way to get out of that mess. >> i absolutely agree with you. we don't ever know the future when someone has been killed. i absolutely believe based upon his experience in going over to see the french war, opposing the entry of u.s. troops, certainly the use of u.s. firepower, he always knew the issue was nationalism and all the more troops we could put in there would simply increase their nationalism. they would resent us even more the more troops we put in. and that turned out to be the case. >> completely agree. and also keep in mind in connection to our previous -- the comments we had. there was such a thing as you know of new frontiersman. there was something different about jack and bobby kennedy's relationship to the military than, say, lyndon johnson. and, you know, a lot of people were loyal to the kennedys. stewart udall as interior secretary.

even though they stayed on with johnson. kennedy was getting his footing. he had won the big showdowns in berlin by not being a militarist. and he won it in cuba by not being a militarist. the notion he'd squander his entire presidency on the gamble of vietnam wasn't in the cards and he was backing away from overcommitting the united states in the fall of '63. walter cronkite did a famous interview at hyannis port. and kennedy drops the bomb on cronkite's first half an hour nightly news of distancing america from vietnam to a degree. you started seeing in the fall kennedy wasn't -- hadn't bought into the idea that if the dominos were going to fall if we lost south vietnam. even though the domino theory was in effect. >> every time i hear a candidate for president say i'm going to listen to the generals on the ground and take their instructions i go, you are running to be their boss. you are running to be a u.s. commander in chief. your job is to tell them what

the mission is. thank you so much. kennedy was already thinking about color tv at the '64 convention. i guess he figured he was going to win the nomination and he was going to get re-elected. already planning ahead there at the end. it's sad but also positive in the way he was so optimistic. david brinkley, thank you for coming on from rice university, as always. when we return, let me finish with the duel. it's a duel of words between newt and mitt. will it get worse? you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. ♪ he was a 21st century global nomad ♪ ♪ home was an airport lounge and an ipad ♪ ♪ made sure his credit score did not go bad ♪ ♪ with a free-credit-score-dot-com ♪ ♪ app that he had ♪ downloaded it in the himalayas ♪ ♪ while meditating like a true playa ♪ ♪ now when he's surfing down in chile'a ♪ ♪ he can see when his score is in danger ♪ ♪ if you're a mobile type on the go ♪ ♪ i suggest you take a tip from my bro ♪ ♪ and download the app that lets you know ♪ ♪ at free-credit-score-dot-com now let's go. ♪ vo: offer applies with enrollment in

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let me finish tonight with this -- the 1,000 injuries afort noddo. the opening words to edgar allen poe's short story of how one man's desire for revenge toward a rival led to him burying the rival alive. well, that was a tale of horror and dark if brilliant fantasy. for a case of real life revenge and real life american history and politics, think of aaron burr and hamilton. they held a duel. hamilton had said something to someone about burr being despicable. here we are, watching something between the horror of a great poet's imagination and what we read in our history books. newt gingrich has a deep and abiding case against romney. romney has spent millions with the single purpose of destroying gingrich as a candidate.

oh, not just that. destroying him as a public figure, rendering him as repelate in the country's mind. he's lucky to still make wikipedia. he's attacking not just newt the politician but newt the person. he's vilifying him, villainizing him, trampling him into the dust of iowa and florida that even liberals are starting to root for gingrich. here's a question bhop is this going to end? romney keeps ridiculing newt. he's throughout publicly enjoying newt's humiliation. chortling over it. this isn't professional. it isn't smart and it's going to reap trouble for romney. there's only one reason for newt to give up this hunt and that's for romney to get him, too. if he thinks adding insult to injury is going to get newt or anybody to move on, he may be good at business but he's no politician. alexander hamilton could have pulled back on calling aaron burr despicable. could have, but didn't. we don't have duels these days or talk of duels except when senator zell miller talks to me. but we have politics. newt ain't quitting this fight. this politic