to you to join us for 30 million jobs in austin, texas, tomorrow. the defense energy project, a block buster list of guests for the next three days. but "hardball" starts right now. church versus state. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. leading off tonight, a hot one. church, state, and presidential politics. the obama administration has gotten itself into a fight with the catholic church. it's ruling that religious institutions, colleges, universities, and hospitals must provide full insurance coverage for birth control. the catholic church says it is being required to pay for something it views as morally wrong. is this an attack on religious freedom as some are arguing?

or simply the effort of the government to provide state of the art health care. let's get to that one up front tonight. plus you can hear the charges of hypocrisy. opted out when he saw how much money he can raise privately after denouncing super pacs, the obama campaign is embracing them. is he violating a principle? yes. will he get lots of money? yes. again. and will he lose any votes because of it? probably no. also colorado, missouri, and minnesota hold contests tonight in the republican race for president. the big question tonight, can rick santorum pick off a state or two? maybe win two and give the romney campaign a new headache it doesn't need. and a big victory for supporters of gay marriage. an appeals court in california has struck down the gay marriage ban in california known as prop 8. it's a narrow ruling and the case is likely to wind up in the

supreme court. let me finish with the conflict between the right of the government to protect public health and the right after a religion to practice their moral believes. we start with that fight. the obama administration has gotten itself into it. susan mil susan milligan, here we are. an issue we should never argue. this is the trickiest for me. let me state the fact and then we'll begin the discussion here. a new ruling by hhs as part of the new health care bill says if you're an organization and you provide health coverage, that should include coverage for contraceptives, but also devices such as iuds and morning after pills, which the catholic church views as abortion.

most people understand these issues. especially catholics. the question is fundamental, you and i are church goers. we understand this issue. we heard it on the church altar two weeks ago. it stunned me when i heard it from the cardinal. my question. explain to non-catholics watching right now why the church opposes financing paying the insurance costs that covers without copay these methods? >> the church -- back in the '60s they decided artificial contraception was immoral. it should be said that you don't see a lot of catholic families of 11 or 12 anymore. >> the new five in our family is three. >> we have three kids. >> we went from five of us to three kids. we are what you see in the pews. agreed. >> and the church has this position. i think even among more liberal catholics, there's a feeling that there should be some space

for these religious organizations that provide so much social service work, health care, one in six patients go to a catholic hospital. they ought to have some religious liberty rights. the same way you wouldn't tell a quaker college you have to offer ratsi to your students. >> allowances are made all the time. >> correct. i think the other piece of this is that a lot of people inside the church who supported president obama on health care reform, said we're willing to find a compromise here. but you have to show us some sense of respect for this religious liberty right. it's going to weaken all the progressives inside the bishops conference and inside the church that the administration was not willing to give anything on this issue. i think that's an important political fact here. >> susan? did you run for the global.

you know how hot it can be. >> i can certainly understand why this is a very difficult issue for the church. but we're talking about providing birth control in the church, we're talking about businesses of the church. >> like what? >> you don't think a hospital is a business? >> i went to a college called holy cross. you went to church every day. so the idea that these schools are technically catholic is not an argument. or georgetown. they are all the same. >> is everybody sweeping the floors at georgetown? the point is not everybody working there is catholic. this is basic health care for them. and that's what it is. presumably -- >> what about the people -- 90% of catholics use birth control. why can't the church leave it up to the worker? >> a couple things. there are 28 state laws that provide for contraception.

there are catholic institutions that already do cover contraception, either because they choose to or because of bargaining agreements. >> do they include issues like plan b? >> i'm not sure. but there was a way to deal with this problem. my friend melissa rogers sort of pointed to hawaii. what you do is you do not force the religious institutions to pay for this, but you make available somehow through the policy at very low cost or no cost to individuals that they can opt in and get it themselves. >> who would that make happy? >> it would be a fair compromise. maybe the solution here is not to make anybody fully happy, but to say there are competing rights here. the right of the church for religious liberty. >> i'm not sure who started this fight. i know the church position because it's never changed. the obama position is let's get

reele reelected. and women, most democrats are women. the catholic study said on this issue, it's an emotional one for catholics. let's listen. this guy is our scholar on catholic affairs. >> this has struck a kind of tribal nerve in catholicism. catholics have been beaten up. and i think catholics are tired of the government and others beating up on the church. that's, in my view, one of the political facts behind this rather extraordinary reaction across the catholic spectrum. >> to me, every woman should have a right to make decisions. men make them. women should make them with equal rights. obviously, that's not the issue. if that was the issue, i wouldn't be concerned about the way this developed. i think it's a question of the

church. i guess i grew up watching movies like beckett and seeing the church and state go to war with each other and being told stories about the macbees. the state requires you to eat pork. it gets to that interesting point to me which is frightening when the state tells the church what to do. then the church can no longer teach. if the church teaches, it's morally wrong to use birth control, how can you make the teacher pay for birth control without losing their moral authority? if they start financing under the law what they are called to do, they have anymore credibility on the issues with that's the concern here. it's a political issue. i agree. if you can make them do it, they can't teach it anymore. i'm just asking. >> first of all, let's separate the fundamental faith that catholics have and god and in their religion from something like banning birth control,

which is -- 98% of catholics don't follow it. if you're talking about people who are working in an actual church, i don't think any one of us would say they have to pay for birth control. >> how is that different than a catholic college? >> at a university, i doubt every professor at georgetown university is catholic. >> not everyone. >> why should those people be discriminated against and be denied this basic health care coverage? >> it's the copay the issue? >> it's a different standard. >> this is where it gets to be tricky. and i don't have the answer. >> compromise can get people covered without the church paying for it. but i think there's this catholic fear, and i think this is especially true of the libera liberals. one of the things we love ant the church is the things the church does for people who are

not catholic. kids who aren't catholic, social service agencies who feed people who aren't catholic. when you say it's only these rules, there's an exception only for churches themselves, only for cultic activities, but not the social justice work, i think that wrangles with catholics. >> many african-american kids who are protestant and remain. my mom's sister has been teaching special education children since 1944. they are teaching all kinds of kids. the republican presidential candidates have gone after the preside president. they are talking about religious institutions being issued to pay for coverage. let's hear the political people. >> the administration said under obama care that religious organizations like schools, catholic schools and hospitals

and so forth have to provide for free contraceptives and free morning after bills for all of their employees in violation of the religious conscious of those organizations. this kind of assault on religion will end if i'm president of the united states. >> now newt gingrich, the issue. let's listen. >> there's been a lot of talk about the administration attack on the catholic church. the fact is governor romney insisted that catholic hospitals give out abortion pills against their religious belief when he was governor. the massachusetts moderate finds it very hard to draw a sharp contrast with somebody who is an illinois radical. >> rick santorum vowed, he jumped in on the issue. let's listen to him today. >> this administration, as you can tell from my reaction, has

been hostile to people of faith, particularly christians and specifically catholics. and i'm not going to stand for it. i'm going to call him out on it. they better change it. if they don't, i'm going to make it an issue every day of the campaign. >> you heard that. >> first of all, i don't think any one of these candidates would be seizing on this issue if the economy were doing slightly better. i think at this point, the issue is still going to be jobs and the economy in this campaign. they want to insert a social issue. >> the obama administration has given tens of millions of dollars to catholic institutions. they work well with a lot of them. that's why i don't understand why they picked this fight. they have done a lot of stuff in cooperation with catholic social service issues. >> this is hotter than anybody thought it would be. i heard it in church. thank you. coming up, after denouncing super pacs, the obama campaign

is now embracing them. nobody is going to care on left or right. republicans cry hypocrisy. they have watched big money. they have learned they don't want to be demolished. equal playing field. the president and his people. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. eve they should be in charge of their own future. how they'll live tomorrow. for more than 116 years, ameriprise financial has worked for their clients' futures. helping millions of americans retire on their terms. when they want. where they want. doing what they want. ameriprise. the strength of a leader in retirement planning. the heart of 10,000 advisors working with you one-to-one. together for your future. ♪

big news here. a top official for the komen foundation is out after last week's decision to cut funding from planned parenthood. karen handle has resigned. it was widely blamed for the decision to stop funding breast cancer screenings at planned parenthood. a decision they reversed late last week. a platform included defunding planned parenthood. we'll be right bam. back. when it's done" academic.

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after long criticizing super pacs, last night the president shifted course. the white house announced they would give their blessing to the super pacs supporting the president's reelection. priorities usa. we have seen what kind of effect the super pacs have had in the campaign. tens of millions of dollars have been spent in the republican primaries to blanket the air waves. the white house said given that reality. they had no choice to get into the game. will it matter in the end? what effect will the super pacs have on the election this year? de de meyers was former press secretary for the president. and john fury is with us as well. >> the bigger question is, there's a sense of panic in the obama administration. they have to start raising money. they have a super pac that's raised no money.

the billion dollars they were supposed to have is not going to show up. the issue is the president is weak with the voters, even though he's doing better than mitt romney. >> if they let this game go the way it's been going with republicans raising zillions of dollars to put these dirt ball ads on the air, if he has to face that, defenseless without the super pacs. >> they saw not only the amount of money the republicans are raising, but the tenor of the ads. a lot of them are directed at president obama already. millions more will be spent. >> let's look at some of the ads that have run in the primary. the pro-romney super pac restore our future blanketed the air waves destroying newt gingrich in iowa. let's watch it. >> ever notice how some people make a lot of mistakes? >> i made a mistake.

>> i made mistakes at times. >> so far, newt gingrich has ignored his mistakes or flipped on teaming up with nancy pelosi, health care, iraq, attacking mitt romney and more. >> i made a big mistake in the spring. >> haven't we had enough mistakes? >> that seems to work. another newt ad put out. let's watch that one. >> newt gingrich's attacks are called foolish, out of bounds, and disgusting. he has more baggage than the airlines. he was fined for ethics violations. took $1.6 million from freddie mac. don't be fooled by newt's desperate attacks. >> i have seen negative ads. they are pretty good. remember the one from castro.

he had supported funding for the imf. some of that money had got on to castro. these ads can be nasty. >> i am shocked that people do negative campaigning. the obama administration knows something about negative campaigning. they had all the money. >> why didn't it seem that way? it seemed he ran an upbeat campaign. >> he didn't do the commercials here in d.c. he ran them elsewhere. they are smart to try to get it off the idea of being pure. there's a little hypocrisy. >> i look at carl rove. something like $50 million in different checks he's been able to raise. the power of these guys to raise money, obama has to get into the money game. he has to get into the negative advertising game. >> they played the game in 2008.

they ran ads. one of the reasons the president came off as positive is he spoke from his events very positive. that will contrast. >> romney has not sold himself. most people don't really like him. his negatives have gone up. he's destroyed his opponents. >> but he's paying a terrible price for it. he's not letting that happen just on the air waves. he's doing it from the stump as well. >> did he only spend how much in florida? >> let me give you a look at this. the campaign that mitt romney runs, it's not going to have an impact on barack obama. people know barack obama. this is going to be an election based on whether he's done a good job. i think he's in real trouble. i think he might lose the election because he's not done a good job as president.

>> let me tell you something. i'm going to remind you of something. romney has won great strength. he raised money. he has the lds money. he has connections in the finance world. it's enormous how much trust he has. they are on his side. they don't like regulation. they want all that stuff to their advantage. there's a lot of motive out there to kill obama politically. you know that. >> i think this is going to be decided -- >> they are going to be raising tons of money because it benefits from the defeat of obama. you know it does. >> the president and super pac has not raised a lot of money. the other is the democratic -- once we have a republican nominee and democrats get a load of who that is and it's a two-person race, you'll see the democratic money start to pour in. >> fundamental issue. people take politics seriously. the way the thing works. the way you win elections and

lose them. they pay attention to that. do you think a grown person who is 18 years or older, male or female, do you think they will be moved by a tv ad? >> i don't. i think it's overrated. earned media getting people to pay attention. and things like this, when you talk about the last segment, the catholic church is going to be angry. >> you make a mistake in one of the three presidential debates. four hours to make a mistake and you make one mistake. you'll see it repeated over and over in the news. >> in the news media and also the paid ads. >> i think it has more of an impact of people who don't know who the candidates are. the presidential level is

something where they know the candidates. >> i'm waiting to see what's going on now. a week before the election. the candidate looks up and sees the numbers and is down by three points. now you can raise so much money in five minutes from your richest people. you get put on the air immediately. >> it's going to be last minute. >> you watch how much dirt ball goes on in this campaign at the end. up next, michele bachmann calls herself the perfect candidate. i think she's still in that trance. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. i wouldn't do that. pay the check?

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back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. first up, you had your chance. michele bachmann may be a has been in the presidential race,

but that doesn't stop people from asking her what she thinks of the remaining candidates. as it turns out, she has an interesting opinion on how the final four stack up. here's what she said in an interview with bloomberg's albert hunt last week. >> you said in almost a dozen debates with these people. let me ask you this it. who is the more conservative of these four candidates left? >> i was. i was the perfect candidate. when i went out there, america had their chance with the perfect candidate. any of our candidates are going to be acceptable to the american people and more than acceptable because right now if you look at the gallop map that came out this week, president obama is in big trouble across the country. >> there you have it. i was the perfect candidate. and finally, so much for science. in the final push to rack up votes in today's contest, rick

santorum took to the microphone to call out the obama administration for putting politics ahead of science on the topic of global warming. you know what's coming now. let's listen. >> the most important thing we need to do, which is what this administration has not done, which is to use sound science, not politicized science. we saw it with global warming. an absolute travesty of scientific research that was motivated by politics. i for one never bought the hoax to suggest one minor factor of which contribution is a minor factor in the minor factor is the determining ingredient in the sauce that effects the entire global warming and cooling is just absurd on its

face. >> all those phoney dinosaur bones led us to believe this evolution business. the republican race moves on to colorado, missouri, and minnesota. is tonight the night rick santorum breaks through? you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. wake up! that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm. for half the calories plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8. one golden crown. come on frank how long have we known each other? go to e-trade. they got killer tools man. they'll help you nail a retirement plan that's fierce. two golden crowns. you realize the odds of winning are the same as being mauled by a polar bear and a regular bear in the same day? frank! oh wow, you didn't win? i wanna show you something... it's my shocked face. [ gasps ] ♪

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i'm seema mody with your market wrap. the s&p adds three. the nasdaq gains three. coca-cola beat estimates. disney reported profits better than expected. but shares were off more than 1% off hours.

a shakeup at yahoo has four board members announcing their departures. that's it from cnbc. now back to "hardball." a romney nomination would not be in the best interest of us winning the general election. we need to have a conservative alternative. and my feeling is that speaker gingrich has had his chance in the arena and came up short in florida and nevada. and now it's our turn hopefully to get a one on one in missouri, which we have. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was rick santorum last night going after his republican rivals mitt romney and newt gingrich. there are three republican races today. minnesota, colorado, and

missouri. santorum is trying to portray himself as the conservative alternative. the romney campaign has taken time to criticize santorum. so just what threat does santorum pose at this point? does he really have a chance to knock off romney? recently endorsed rick santorum for president. thanks for joining us tonight. i have to wonder why you're jumps in the race. give me the case. we talk politics on this show. how does he win? >> yeah. the primary or the general? >> how does he win the primaries? >> he's going to win the primary because he now has the momentum behind him. this is the right time to have it. others have had it in the past. i think it's now occurring.

i think he's going to win tonight in minnesota and he's going to win in missouri. he'll come out in colorado at least second. if that happens here, where romney had 60% the last time, it will be a win for santorum. the wind is at his back now. there is every reason to believe that it will only get better as time goes on. certainly, there's going to be a lot. the race is not over. look. you need 1,140-some delegates. governor romney has about 89. something like that. it's a long way from the finish line. >> is he willing to knock the guy's block off? i have a feeling that your new flavor of the month, rick santorum, is running for vp. and therefore, he really isn't running against mitt romney in any serious way, the way that newt is. he's willing to throw the frying pan at him. but your guy says i have to be nice enough they will consider

me for vp. >> i don't think so. i don't think that's it. i think what he's doing is trying his best to avoid the kind of campaign that was waged up to this point in time by the exspeaker. and certainly, by romney. that has not helped anybody. it's not going to help going into the general election no matter who is the nominee, except for santorum, who has stayed above that fray. that has given him a lot of get up and go. he hasn't been a part of that ugly aspect of the primary. >> romney did a lot of ugly himself. it was done by those super pacs that did the dirty work for him. you know what the word cute means. here are some statements issued by the romney campaign yesterday about santorum. former minnesota governor tim pawlenty said rick santorum is a nice guy, but he's not ready to

be president. here's santorum last night in response to the criticism. >> governor romney on that important issue of obama care is, in fact, the weakest candidate to put up. in fact, it takes a rally-cry issue that was the center piece of the 2010 election that motivated people to come out to vote give us a victory. mitt romney is uniquely positioned to give that issue away and weaken our chances to beat president obama. campaigns are about ideas. and on the ideas that matter most to the american public, he's on the wrong side. >> is it a fair shot that what romney has done is run a demolition campaign. destroying newt gingrich in iowa. running negative ads while not offering something positive. to this day, we pay attention

here. i haven't heard the romney plan for the next four years to get us out of the economic challenge. do you think he's running negative or positive campaign? >> here's what i think that romney has been doing. that is setting the stage for a debate between him and obama who can best handle the economy. who has the best record for creating jobs and for, you know, essentially, increasing prosperity. i think romney feels, and i think rightly so, he can make a case for that. he's better at it than obama. my dog is better at it than obama. there's no issue in terms of who is better in terms of the economy. but the question that i think santorum is asking is an important one. will the economy be the issue in the election? i mean, it is possible that we are going to see decrease in unemployment. it's possible we'll see a little bit of growth in the economy. as that happens, it takes that issue away from the republican

challenger. then you better start talking about the other things that really matter. which view of america is right? is it obama and zuccotti park protesters? or is it santorum and, in fact, if you want to say it, the tea party people? which view is better? is it the obama view of the entitlement mentality he wants to increase or is it individual responsibility? that's the issues. >> congratulations. you deserve congratulations on iq of your dog. thank you. a heck of a dog. thank you for joining us. "the huffington post" has numbers coming out. it looks like he has a point there in touting santorum. he might win in michigan and minnesota. take a look at the polls out today on the states voting today. santorum leads with 33% of

romney's 24%. gingrich and paul are close behind. in missouri, santorum leads again 45% to romney's 32%. paul far behind. romney is leading in colorado. it looks like the deal doesn't look done. >> no deal is done. the deal is not done for romney. the latest polls from gallop show him at 37%. there's a new reuters poll that shows him at 29%. in certain respects, mitt's run is going to be vivid. he's a bit like a giant hairball that the republican party cat is trying to cough up. they can't swallow it and they can't get rid of it. that's sort of the way he is. he's in front mathematically. but today is santorum's day. >> you know what a hairball smells like? go ahead. >> today is santorum's day.

today is it. missouri is just a beauty pageant. >> it's a headline. >> it is a headline. because newt gingrich isn't playing in missouri, santorum has a one on one. >> he might get two out of three. >> and i think what that does is prolong the race even further. in a way it's beneficial to romney but screws newt gingrich and keeps things divide. mitt romney has been the last-man standing candidate from the very beginning. this is going to make it take even longer. if santorum wins a couple tonight, then that just prolongs the mathematical path to june. >> can santorum and newt gingrich together get over 50% to deny the nomination all the way to tampa to romney? >> i don't know the answer to that. don't forget ron paul is going to pick up delegates here and there. all three of them can get 50% in

theory. it's not like mitt romney is closing the deal. it doesn't quite feel like that yet. it just doesn't. if mitt romney can -- newt gingrich could win some states on super tuesday. >> the thing to watch every tuesday is does mitt get 50% anywhere? he won't get it everywhere. >> they were putting out press releases how he got over 50% in florida. that's the first place. >> up next, a big victory for supporters of marriage equality today. federal appeals court the famous 9th circuit strikes down california's ban on prop 8. this is a big one. one of the lawyers is joining us. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. [ male announcer ] the draw of the past is a powerful thing.

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back welcome back to "hardball." supporters of gay marge scored a big victory. a judge ruled that california's ban on same sex marriage, its proposition 8, is unconstitutional because it violates the civil rights of gays and lesbians. today's ruling reads" although the constitution permits communities for most laws, it requires there be at least a legitimate reason for the passage of a law that treats different classes differently. there was no reason proposition 8 could have been enacted." joining me is the lead attorney in the fight to overturn the rule is david boys. and also the lieutenant governor of california gavin newsome. is it now viewed, at least by

the 9th circuit, that you have a constitutional right to marry someone of your gender? >> yes. certainly in california. the decision has a model of judicial restraint. but if you look at the reasoning of the decision, that decision applies generally to every state in the 9th circuit. >> what does that mean to a nonlawyer? does it mean it goes the supreme court or will be accepted around the country as constitutional law? >> i think eventually this is going to have to go to the supreme court. whether this particular case goes to the supreme court is up to the supreme court. but i think eventually, you're going to have to go to the supreme court because even if this decision applies in the 9th circuit, it's controlling law in other states. >> who is your adversary who would take the appeal to the supreme court? it's not the government of

california. >> we're in a situation where the proponents of the proposition have intervened to try to defend the proposition. so they would be the ones would carry the ball to the supreme court, if it goes there. >> okay. let me go to lieutenant governor newsome, your thoughts about this. you were one of the people out there early on, a hero to the gay community, among others, because you were honoring gay marriages before it was legal. what do you think this means politically out there in your part of the country, maybe the rest of the country as well? >> well, think about it chris. in 2004, almost eight years ago this week, we began the process of marrying over 4,000 couples and eventually that moved to the california supreme court, which adjudicated in our favor. we saw legislative actions, pro and con, for and against same sex marriage all across the country. but it's remarkable to answer your question, in 2004, the great debate was civil unions. we had just gone through a debate around domestic partnerships, democrats overwhelmingly were not supportive, at least publicly,

of same sex marriage. the politician of this has changed dramatically and a lot of pressure on remaining elected official, particularly the democratic party, to stand up and step into this debate now. >> issues changing dramatically. gay marriage approached an legal in six state, new hampshire, vermont, connecticut, new york, massachusetts, iowa and right here in washington, d.c. of course, civil unions and domestic partnerships recognized in eight other state, including california. let's look at some of the polling on this. gentlemen, i'm looking at the age differences here. among people 18 to 30, a gallup poll, found that 53% -- look at that, 70% of people who are under 34 support it. and as you get older, it slows down. but what is your view, david, you have watched this case proceed, you are fighting it, about the cultural fact. what is relevant about the cultural fact it is more accepted? >> i think what's relevance is that 20 years from now, people are going to have as much difficulty understanding what this fuss is about as people who

grow up today can understand 30 years ago, blacks and whites were prohibited from getting married. this issue is going to be solved eventually by the demographics. what we need to do is we need to be sure though that we don't lose another generation of people who are deprived of the right to get married. that's why this litigation is so important. it's not that there's any chance that eventually, this battle won't be won but we need to win it for the people today so that they can enjoy the rights that they are entitled to under the constitution. >> i know there's no expression the supreme court, i think it was an old irish expression, mr. what's his name, the supreme court follows the election returns, but you just said something rather amazing, you said the demographics are going to change t how does the changing nature of public opinion and attitudes change the supreme court ruling? >> well, eventually, you are going to get people on the supreme court who have grown up in a culture of equality. >> oh, i gotcha.

>> the problem is that people my age are the people who are judges today. we grew up in an atmosphere of gay bashing in which there was extreme prejudice. now, the young people who have grown up, knowing gays and lesbians their entire lives, know these are our brothers, our sisters, our doctors, our lawyers, our friends, our colleagues, they are not going to be subjecting these people to discrimination. and what we need do eventually, that's going to move through. look at the 70% of the people 34 and under favored same-sex marriage. that is something that is going to move through this country just like the baby boom moved through this country. >> okay. >> the thing we have got to do is stop it now so that the people don't have to wait 30 years in order to exercise these rights. >> i want to congratulate you on what you've done here because i have always believed in the case you are bringing here and my wife and i are both very, very strong on equality. >> thank you. >> i have to tell you so proud

of the fact so many roughly my age, perhaps a bit younger is out there leading the fight. secondly, governor newsome, out there way ahead of all of us, although i thought you were too far out in the old days, which is like eight years ago, i have caught up to you, sir, you deserve all the credit for being out there. >> absolutely. absolutely. >> what's it like to be able to talk about an issue, governor? the mainstream? >> it is good to be mainstream and, you know exremember, 70% of americans opposed interracial marriage in 1967 when the u.s. supreme court adjudicated in favor of disbanding those 18 -- rather 16 states that denied it, much further along in that debate. >> congratulations, gentlemen. david boies and lieutenant governor newsome from california. let me finish with the government's right to protect public health and a religion's right to practice what it preaches. this is a tough one. you are watching "hardball," only on msnbc. o dist. it's real milk full of calcium and vitamin d. and tastes simply delicious.

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let me finish tonight with this, it is about the obama administration's decision to require as part of the new health care bill that religious institutions, colleges, universities and hospitals, provide full insurance coverage for birth control, including iuds and morning after pills, in addition to those methods strictly defined as contraceptive. the catholic church teaches that birth control and iuds and birth control bills are abortive and morally wrong. here they are being required by law to pay for them this is how

the church sees it and something the church believes it morally cannot do the conflict is between the right of the government to protect what it views as the public health and the right of a religion in this case, the catholic church, to practice its deepest moral beliefs in this free society, one in which the first amendment does guarantee religious freedom. we are watching a real conflict here. it will be the duty of religious leaders to follow their consciences. it will be the work of politicians, the president on down to do what they do best, work this out. there are millions of liberal catholics who did not wish for this conflict but can see with powerful clarity its validity t is not about the number of catholics who use birth control or the number of noncatholics who attend catholic colleges or universities or receive help from catholic charity, it is about what the church itself teaches. this regulation is telling you to do by law what it teaches should not be done. that's the issue. and that is the real conflict here. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for