joining me is ari melber, michael steele, maggie haberman, and josh tirangle is the editor of "bloomberg businessweek." we don't have a zippy little word to put after your name. we're looking live at farmington hill, michigan. new polls show rick santorum giving romney a run for his money in the former governor's home state. i want to ask you first, michael steele, we look -- >> why me? >> because as an elder statesman -- >> ari's good. >> we'll get ari to weigh in after you. let's take a visit down memory lane, in terms of who is endorsement romney. got the support of nikki haley, lost south carolina. has the support of john mccain, isn't really making much of a play for arizona. he also has the backing of chris christie and donald trump. how much do endorsements matter for mitt romney? >> well, the way you put it, not much. >> well, i would -- >> i think they do matter.

look, a lot of people overhype what endorsements really are all about. i mean, in fact, they don't even go to what they're really all about. they're really about organization and structure on the ground, maybe some money, that may come in, that the flow in. but this is really about how you get that individual, particularly somebody who's the governor of a state or who has a very important network of activists, that they can tap into. that's really what those endorsements serve. now, from the media standpoint, it's great pr, good stuff for us to sit and talk about and to make the comparison, well, they endorsed you and you lost their state. and there's a real question, the governor of michigan is coming out today and is going to say nice things about romney and michigan is in play, oddly enough. >> michigan is most certainly in play. >> so that furthers your scenario. but what the governor of michigan offers the the mitt romney team is the stuff they're going to need on primary day, which is -- you know, caucus day, which is getting of out that vote. >> i agree with the chairman and i want to add to what the chairman said. i think you might agree with

this. there's endorsements and then the there's love. >> right. >> when you had jeb bush in florida helping then governor bush, right, that was more than an endorsement. that was the full sweep. you know, it's organization, it's networks, it's people in government, within whatever's appropriate, helping what everyone knowing this is for real. i think one of the problems with mitt romney is lukewarm endorsements. i'm not convinced these people are out doing the heavy lifting. particularly what he needs right now, is for people to go hard at rick santorum, and not just say nice things about him, but to help him finish this job. >> i think nikki haley in the case of north carolina, did showed the love. i think she worked pretty hard for him. >> and is paying a price for it. >> correct. she may not have gone so viscerally after newt gingrich, but she worked it hard. i think that was the first time we saw an endorsement that didn't quite work out the way it was supposed to. it will be very interesting to see what impact this has. i do think and i think the

chairman sort of hinted at this, we tend to overstate endorsements in terms of their importance. it absolutely is about the networking and what it can mean. but realistically, this is a state where mitt romney has been organizing in form or another for four years. >> it matters to the actual voters. >> who are they? >> the way we used to think about endorsements, you live in a state, you don't see many national politicians. your local politician is your guide. you say, this is my guy. he's going to take care of me. now you are much more likely to know mitt romney or rick santorum than your legislature, your congressman. you see these people all day, every day. you have much greater familiarity. the endorsement itself doesn't mean anything for your vote. >> let's talk about michigan, because it is romney's former home state. he was there until he was 15, 16, 17, 18. his father was the governor. he certainly has roots that go back. and you look at this new detroit news poll out this morning. santorum is at -- this is a 4.4 margin of error, but santorum's at 34%, romney's at 30.4%, which

weeks ago, i think would have been unthinkable. i think it's interesting today that we have gm announcing its profits, the highest in its 103-year history, this against the backdrop of mitt romney saying in 2008, don't do this auto bailout. i wonder how much people in michigan, whether that's something that sways them, you know, towards him. and i guess, my contention is probably, it does a good job of undermining his economic message in terms of, i'm a business guy, i know how to run companies, i know how to run countries, and one of the biggest decisions that i came out against turned out to be the wrong position to take. >> well, not necessarily, because the story on gm is not over yet. i mean, we're still writing that story. we don't know the full breadth of the changes that needed to be done to make it a viable, ongoing concern, as we like to say in the business parlance. the other thing is, too, the government still owns almost 27% of gm. and so that stock price needs to go up significantly in order for the government to get out. so don't write the epitaph too

quickly on what mitt romney had to say about that deal, which i still think from a business standpoint, and certainly from a government versus private sector standpoint, was the right position to take. you can argue the politics of it, and how you spend that to make it look bad, but when you think about it, at the end of the day, the folks are going to be going to those caucuses and voting, they'll more likely agree with mitt romney on that point than disagree with him, on some respects. >> to seize on clint eastwood, we're at halftime on the gm deal, and at halftime, the deal looks pretty good for the president. alan mulally was begging the government to step in, because he was afraid ford would go down with it. when you look at an $8 billion profit number, and it's a complicated story, there's european issues, there's scrap as far as the u.s. goes too. but when you look at halftime, the score looks pretty good. and we're voting at halftime. >> and if you're talking about the american public -- >> with halftime you're leading

and you end up losing the game. >> and if you look at sort of where the stock price is and the american public recouping its investment, it's rosier, more of a bullish picture than a bearish. >> i don't see -- where are the protests? all this profit they're making, there's way too much profit being made here. this is bad for the country. we need to stop this. >> well, michael steele is not giving the occupy -- >> oh, my gosh, where are the protesters? way too much profit! >> if dan ackerson were taking in $100 million in options and bonuses, as a result of that $8 billion in profit, i think we'd be hearing some protests. because it's gm, and look, because in some ways it's been nationalized, who's going to protest? but it's also a much more fair way of -- >> all the more reason to protest! >> i would say we don't cover it enough, and i think there are a lot of auto workers that think that they have -- their power has been diminished, considerably, organized labor that would take issue with a lot of the things that's going on in terms of collective bargaining -- >> well, they shouldn't -- 17% of it, come on.

>> let's kind of get back to the race here. we talk about romney and he's in michigan and he's having a hard time there. and you look at rust belt, i want to read this quote from frank rich on why santorum may be more electable. "this election is about places like ohio, florida, pennsylvania, and north carolina. and among working class, white voters whom the republicans need to win in swing states, who is going to inspire more enthusiasm? a sort of working class catholic from pennsylvania, or the patrician mormon venture capitalist from massachusetts who is now best known for laying off workers?" and this is why we're beginning to see the white house train its sights on rick santorum, because the door is open to maybe the notion that this guy will be the nominee. >> i think the most interesting thing that happened in the past 24 hours is that the red, white, and blue fund, the super pac supporting rick santorum, put in a huge amount of money for a five-day ad buy. for ads to run just over five days. they're outspending in that period, the restore our future, the mitt romney super pac. this is the most aggressive response that any candidate has

had to the pro-mitt romney super pac, and newt gingrich just kind of sat there, stunned, right, and dazed when he got punched. it took him a very long time. winning our future was never able to put together a real message. this will be the test, whether rick santorum gets really aggressively defined by mitt romney and his allies or not. so i think the attacks so far we've seen from the romney campaign have been sort of weak, right? they've essentially been tied to old votes and there's not been very much there. rick santorum is not as easy to parody as newt gingrich was. and so i think that's going to be the real test. >> and we will be talking more about money and super pac ads in the race coming up next. the money game. rick santorum is also releasing four years of his tax returns, as the main donor to his super pac says he's in it for the long haul. we'll laook at how santorum's numbers stack up to romney's, next on "now." [ male announcer ] we know you don't wait until the end of the quarter to think about your money... ♪

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rick santorum finally released his tax returns. the documents show the former pennsylvania senator pays double the tax rate of mitt romney. as we went to break, we were talking about the power or the potential power of rick santorum, someone who's seen as more working class, middle class, against a mormon patrician. santorum, look, in 2010, his income was $930,000. he paid a tax rate of 28%. this is compared to mitt romney who paid 14% on $21.7 million in 2010. rick santorum has seven dependents and romney, according to cnn, his sons have a trust fund worth $100 million. >> there's a bit of a difference. >> it is a bit of a difference. but maggie, you reported on this. how much do you think this is something that the santorum

campaign can move forward as a weapon against mitt romney? >> i think he's going to be get asked about his income. he's going to be asked whether $1 million per year can relate -- and the debate is next week in arizona, first one we've had in a while. i think his answer will be, mitt romney was getting taxed for nonincome welco nonincome, right? those were investments, number one. and number two, he'll claim ownership of this. i think he'll do what he has typically done and say, you know, i went out, i had to support my arned for my family, i'm proud of what i did. and one of things we've seen with romney, he's seemed so uncomfortable. and we've talked about this. >> all you have to say is cayman islands, over and over again. santorum addressed the issue of his tax returns last night. listen to what he said. >> i don't have any income that would come from investments or wealth. i mean, every -- almost 90 plus

percent of the money that's on those tax returns, i went out and earned. >> i went out and earned it, unlike the -- >> it is blue-collar. and it is the message that folks in michigan and across this country can relate to every day. everything that's in my bank account, i earned. it wasn't given to me, it didn't just appear because there were extra dollars sitting there. that is a very powerful message, and the romney campaign had better been better than smart in how they go after this. because it will blow up in their faces. >> but, michael, it's also a liberal message. i mean, it is nodding towards occupy and a lot of other criticisms as a way the system works. because it says, in essence, this money that i earned through labor is better -- that's what i hear -- is better than just sitting around nursing investments. >> you say tomato, i say tomato. >> you say liberal, i say moderate conservative. >> but santorum's greatest advantage is he doesn't have to really talk about this issue, because it's useless for romney

to say, you made close to $1 million. that's not a winner for romney. statement, the appeal of santorum -- >> through work! >> yeah. the appeal of santorum is he transcends that. and he is blue-collar. he speaks blue-collar. he feels it. he's a generation removed. and you know, that story is pervasive. what i love about where we're headed with michigan is, you know, they talk about the fight game. it's not just about the fighters, it's about the setting. here we have the mormon patrician, as you say, the blue-collar guy, and we're going to the thrillin' in manilla equivalent. and you'll really see what the best of these campaigns can bring. they've got to fight it out in that setting. not some place where being blue-collar doesn't matter. >> and what's so important about what you just said is, michigan is going to be the perfect setup for super tuesday and ohio, where that is -- that's the whole game, right there. and if he comes close in michigan or if, in fact, outright wins michigan, santorum, talk about game change. talk about a dynamic that shifts

the paradigm for going forward. that will. >> and that's the thing. you say, oh, if you can make it in new york, you can make it anywhere. well, if santorum does well in michigan, all bets are off. >> oh, yeah, romney actually today in an interview with the grand rapids press was asked, what do you make of these polls where you're down, showing you losing? he said, essentially, that's not going to happen. i'm not going to lose michigan. that's a really strong statement. this is why if he loses, on one hand, you know, you're setting the bar pretty high for yourself, but i think what you guys just said, a loss in michigan is sort of unspinable for romney. i don't know how you can sort of say, but i came in close in the state -- >> they know him. >> and i would even submit coming close, five or less points, you can't spin off of that either. >> even if santorum -- >> santorum comes the in, because for him, he's got to get over 50%. it's your background, it's your playground. it's where you spent your formative years, politically, if you will. and you know -- >> and it's a test for the republican party that he can win over those middle class working

voters. he's not just the guy that people making over $200,000 a year vote for. >> i've always argued, and certainly as national chairman argued, that that is one of the mainstays of the gop, is that blue-collar element within our party, which we tend to ignore or cede to the democrats for some fashion. but this is a good testament of that. >> especially in race where president obama is having a hard time winning over those very voters. after the break, congress reaches a deal to extend the payroll tax cut, but does the agreement actually signal peace among the warring factions? why the winds of change may not necessarily be blowing. that's next. sweet, nutty crunchy nut.

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the best in nutrition... just got better. now with even more of the vitamins your body needs. like vitamin d. plus omega 3's. there's one important ingredient that hasn't changed: better taste. [ female announcer ] eggland's best. better taste. better nutrition. the better egg. congress worked together and apparently struck a deal to extend the payroll tax cut. so could this rare instance of

cooperation signal a new tone in congress? >> i saw pictures of boehner and cantor on our screens. don't ever let me see again in life those republicans in our home, on our screens, talking about anything. these are demons. >> that was congresswoman maxine waters this past weekend, speaking at the california democratic convention. is maxine waters an outlier or is this war here to stay, ari? >> i think she is an outlier. i think there is a lot of rhetoric in politics. i mean -- >> demons is pretty -- >> i'm not defending demons. as michael steele would say, demon, tomato. >> you say demon, i say tomato. >> it's not just a disagreement among friends. there is real anger and there's real distaste down there. and everybody knows that.

that's an old story. and it's there. i think what stands out about the word "demon," to be fair, is that it's so unusual. when you say, we're going behind enemy lines, that is a term that actually comes from killing people behind enemy lines. but it's something people use in politics. the word "demon" is not regularly used, it so sounds really awful and she probably shouldn't have gone there. to your point, though, no, the payroll tax cut opportunity look like to me anything new. it lack looks like the republi pushed really hard, didn't understand their own leverage, fell apart, and now people are trying to make the best of saying they have a deal. this isn't really a deal. this is the usual hostage taking this didn't work this time. >> michael steele, on the word "demon." >> all i say is that she should apologize profusely. >> that's all -- >> look. >> very succinct assessment. >> i took so many words. >> right, exactly. well, no, the problem is, it's a double -- it's a two-edged thing here, double-edged sword. on the one hand, if a republican

had said that at their state convention or whatever, people would be screaming and crying for, you know, apologies and making sure that this kind of rhetoric is not in place in the body politic. set that aside, you know. maxine is maxine. she's talking to the hometown crowd, she's talking to a bunch of rabid -- >> supporters. >> -- you know, supporters, and democrats at a state democrat convention. so you get a pass. to your point, the reality of it is, washington is doing what washington always does, punt and try to make it look like they've done something. we're just kicking cans down the road. you're seeing reports in the paper and you're talking about this, maggie, reporting on the fact that, you know, after this vote, they're not doing anything, for the next nine months. >> they're packing up for the year. i will say, and i'm not defending maxine waters' choice of descriptors, but i think what

you see is an incredible amount of frustration in terms of the political process. and you look, i like citing historical facts and figures to buffer my arguments, but ryan lin in "the new yorker" cited yale professor hacker. since 1995, house republicans moved roughly six times to the right than house democrats moved to the left. and there's a sense, i'm sure, if wrr at the bargaining table here is what republicans have asked for over and over again, not to mention the absolute insanity of the caucus, has been incredibly frustrating. so while they may not be demons, i think she's giving voice to the sense that the injustice and the difficulty and the pain of trying to work in a bipartisan -- oh, cry me a river. >> this is democrat incompetency. first off, for the first two years of this administration, they controlled all three levers of government, all right? the senate, the house, and the white house, and couldn't get anything done. you have a senate that has gone a thousand plus days to not even pass the budget, and to the

extent that a budget was presented, a president's budget last year, 97 to nothing, they voted -- >> did they control the senate? did they control the senate, though? >> it doesn't matter. at that point, you had every democrat in the senate voting against ft.the president's budg. >> but you had a constant filibuster. >> everybody likes to point to the other side and call them names and blame. >> i was pointing out historical facts and figures, my friend. >> but a pox on both their houses, at this point, given what this country has been going through for the last three or four years. >> i've got a far less passionate defense here, which is that congress is -- >> i'm not defending congress, please. >> i know, you know the numbers there. congress is a weathervane. it always has been a weathervane. they represent people who have more divisive opinions. so when maxine waters goes in front a democratic audience, she is going to call them demons and she's going to get applause. the wind blows that way. what i'm interested in is the

payroll tax to me, you can say, this is no big deal, it's an easy one, right? and then they're going to go away. actually, i wonder if the wind is beginning to change a little bit, and if the republicans in congress are saying, you know, i'm not sure we can get away with a year of nothing. we may need to work with the white house to get a couple things done, for our own good. because we've got to get re-elected. and if we are the party of no, it's not going the work. the only way the wind changes is with the economy. we know that that's fickle. but to me, you can't give congress so much agency that they're leading this fight. they're representatives. >> i would agree with that. and if you look at the specifics of the deal, it looks like everybody gave a little bit, and they came to the middle. which is shocking. and i'm not -- >> consensus. >> i don't know if cats and dogs can get along, but for this day, let us note that democrats and republicans reached some kind of consensus. coming up, it's a good day to be an incumbent. president obama's approval ratings are up and weekly jobless claims are at a four-year low. so why does the obama re-election team appear concerned about rick santorum? we'll take a look at the president's campaign messaging

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what's in your wallet? sorry i'll clean this up. shouldn't have made it rain. today's unemployment report finds weekly jobless claims have dropped to the lowest levels since march of 2008. that adds to the wave of good news for president obama. joining us now from washington is john podesta, former white house chief of staff under president clinton. mr. podesta, it is an honor and a pleasure to have you on the program. >> nice to be on with you, alex. >> so, john, you know, the press is a fickle bunch, but of late, the news has seemed quite positive for the president and his re-election efforts. a cbs/"new york times" poll yesterday shows his approval rating at 50%, his disapproval at 43, which is certainly better than it has been. frank rich in "the new york times" saying, "he is for the first time in a while exuding sunny confidence.

his pivot into populism, while slow in coming, has been pitch perfect ever since he rolled it out in his december speech, but his surging in 2008 were often followed by damaging lapses." john, do you think there's a risk here of democrats in the white house getting overconfident? >> i doubt it. i think they've been through a lot of hard times and it's unimaginable to me that they'd get overconfident. but i think we have had a spate of good news. i think that rich mentions the speech that he gave in kansas in december, where he laid out some themes. but i think he followed that up with a state of the union, which really aimed at the middle class and democrats, and independents are liking what they're hearing. so you see his job approval going up, but you also see the enthusiasm gap being closed. in the latest "new york times" poll, for example, democrats now are as enthusiastic about this campaign as republicans. that's quite a reversal from last year, when republicans were quite fired up and democrats the were quite a few down. >> you know, as we talk about the enthusiasm gap, one of the things that's constantly

mentioned in the president's new messaging is the 99% occupy wall street, and the president has not come out and said he owes any certain amount of debt in terms of messaging to the occupy movement, but to what degree do you think the white house listened to that, and that was influential in crafting this newer, sort of leaner, meaner, fighting machine message? >> look, i think the argument completely changed from the summer, in which it was all about being stuck in a congress that was dysfunctional, endless negotiations, and all about dealing with the debt, to coming into the fall and talking about what the american public really wanted, which was jobs, a focus on income inequality, a focus on trying to get wages growing again, and jobs growing again. and i think the president began that right after labor day. the occupy wall street movement certainly turned the public's attention to this set of questions. and i think the president has continued to capitalize on focusing on trying to deal with the middle class.

he's about to have this win on the payroll tax. you were just talking about that. i think more than this is a moment of kumbaya, the republicans realize they just got drubbed in december by opposing the president on this, and they want to avoid that. so i think the president's had a good run by focusing on wage growth, job growth, the middle class, and the investments that are going to be knows keep the economy moving forward. >> i wonder, and i want to open this up to the panel a little bit, as we talk about the income inequality situation in the country and the president messaging hard on it, we know last night he was at a hollywood fund-raiser with the likes of george clooney and the foo fighte fighte fighters, those 1 percenters, and the president had defended his support trying to gin up enthusiasm for a super pac. and i wonder to what degree do you think the american public is looking at the two actions, or his message on one hand and his actions on the other and saying,

wait a minute, those don't jive. >> i don't think too much at this point. i don't think it's really in their radar screen. they're focusing on, you know, getting that job that's, you know, right there at their fingertip. so as the economy begins to turn and we're creating more and more jobs. so those types of things, just for the political and media junkies like us, who kind of focus on that stuff. >> or people who like the foo fighterses. >> or who like the foo fighters. >> i don't think folks really focus on it too much at this point. maybe later in the campaign, it may be a talking point or two, but right now, i don't think people are jumping up and down about it. >> it goes to a narrative point, and i think right now, that is not the narrative surrounding this president. i also think for whatever reason, he's actually generally been pretty able to pivot away from the whole glitz and glam thing. it actually stuck to the clintons a lot more than it ever stuck to obama, at least since he got into office. i just don't think that's what people are hearing right now. i think there's too much else going on. >> it's pretty technical.

the only place i can see it becoming an, particularly what's going on in this election, is if you get one donor. get one or two active donors who have an ideology behind them, and millions and millions of dollars, and they start flooding your campaign coffers, then it's something you actually have to deal with. but -- >> which the obama campaign has proven itself adept at negotiating. i want to bring you back in here and talk about the horse race. nate silver has an upcoming piece in "the new york times" sunday magazine saying, talking a little bit about rick santorum, mitt romney, and president obama. and he says, "the electability gap between the two is closer than it might appear because of the way santorum's strengths could play in the electoral college. at the very least, he might force a reset of the white house's strategy, from one focused ton 99%, to one more intent on critiquing santorum's positions on social issues." in terms of a mitt romney or a rick santorum, who do you think is a more formidable rival for president obama? >> well, you know, it's hard to tell at this point. i think we'll learn more in the

next couple of weeks. but i think that santorum does appeal more to white working class voters, in particular, more downscale voters. romney's had just tremendous trouble penetrating that group. he's lost them in the primaries, previously. his support is really concentrated at the very top. but santorum has issues as well, and i guess we'll know after romney carpet bombs santorum in michigan over the course of the next week or so, we'll know how much he'll be able to stand up to the negatives that i think he will bring into the general election, because of more extreme positions on the social issues. >> someone, i think it was on buzz feed, they compared the obama campaign machine to the romney campaign machine saying, it's sparta versus sparta. some part of me thinks it would be -- not some part of me, i absolutely think it would be interesting to see a santorum machine, which is, granted, a slower moving, perhaps less

horsepower. but as we talk about money and politics, it is heartening that a guy with that little money and support could be taking this as far as he is. >> more like david and goliath. it only took one stone. >> and speaking of stones, actually, one thing we talked about before, in terms of this michigan primary. democrats and independents can vote. this is an open primary. this was an issue in 2000 with bush and mccain. you know, democrats sort of made mischief. whether or not they make mischief or whether this is just people actually choosing to vote, this is something that could end up really helping rick santorum. >> and you think the democrats go for santorum and try to sway the race that way in michigan? >> i think most likely, yes. i think that even though you're seeing people training their sights on rick santorum, i think that's more about the message that he's representing as opposed to the white house actually having a tremendous fear of him versus, say, mitt romney. >> and i would say probably even less of trying to interfere and try to mix up the republican primary, i think a lot of those democrats who would vote for santorum probably connect with him in some way.

and, you know, look at the president and see, you know, you just haven't gotten it done yet. and so probably put, at least give them a chance to voice their opposition to where things are right now. it doesn't say what it would look like in november, but you never know. >> you never know in november. john podesta, we didn't even get to talk about foreign policy and europe and what's going on over there. that could have a huge effect on the president's chances. to what degree do you think the white house is just cautiously, cautiously taking one step forward on all of this? >> in foreign policy, look, the president's had a tremendous record on foreign policy, again, on terrorism. i think the numbers in the polling reflects that. he's got some big challenges in front of him. i think, most particularly, iran. but i think he's handling that with real strength and i think in contrast to what's going on the republican side. i think this will be an advantage for him going into november. it almost always is for an incumbent president, who demonstrates that they can, you know, really step up to the plate as commander in chief.

>> john, thank you for the wisdom. we'll have more from you after the break, and thank you, ari melber, for playing, as always. after the break, the households a hearing on the white house's birth control policy. is this a winner for the gop? we'll also melissa harris perry when she joins the conversation next on now. look at that lovely dress. everywhere you go, america, i see your cup of joe goes with you. how nice of joe to, how you say, have your back. try something different. a delicious gevalia kaffe, or as i like to say, a cup of johan. will johan power walk the mall with you? i don't think so. but he will spend time rubbing your feet, discussing your feelings. ♪ joe may have your back, but johan has your feet. gevalia. meet me in the coffee aisle. ♪ home was an airport lounge and an ipad ♪ ♪ made sure his credit score did not go bad ♪ ♪ with a free-credit-score-dot-com ♪ ♪ app that he had

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we talked about getting a diamond. but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪ [ male announcer ] the citi thank you card. earn points you can use for travel on any airline, with no blackout dates. the house just held a hearing looking into the obama administration's new contraceptive rule. the meeting got off to a contentious start. >> what i want to know is where are the women? when i look at this panel, i don't see one single woman. >> we are here looking at government's bounds of, in fact, not is it a good idea, not does it save or cost money, but, in fact, how does it impact religious organizations and

people of conscience and faith. >> joining the table is melissa harris perry, host of msnbc's new show "melissa harris perry." melissa, i want to go to you first. is this a winning argument for the gop going into 2012, this birth control/contraceptive argument? >> i don't think it is. and part of what's been so fascinating about watching this for me has been the distinction between this and the moment when john f. kennedy was running for president. and the anxiety around the possibility of the first catholic president was this idea that the pope and the vatican and catholic values would be able to impose themselves on government policy. and this idea that despite the fact that we are a country very concerned with freedom of religion and freedom of expression, that the question of what is good policy ought to be separate from the question of what is religiously acceptable. and this time now it's shifted. so here's a policy that saves money. here's a policy that's good for women's health. here's a policy that does not, i

think, fundamentally contradict the way that catholic organizations that are not the catholic church have already operated. and yet it gets described as, oh, this is some great sort of intervention of the government over religious ideas. >> but you seem to separate a catholic organization from the catholic church. >> it is. >> and therein lies the problem. in order to have the impra modder of a catholic institution, you have to have the support of the church. so the doctrine follows. it doesn't just separate because you're a, quote, secular institution, a hospital. you still have that nexus to the church, where those doctrines and that theology of the church matters. and the church doesn't disagree with anything you just said. what the church is saying is with respect to your ideas on

these issues from a doctrinal position, we would like that separation. >> and yet quakers make taxes that pay for wars. and so the reality is that in the role that we have as citizens and in the role that we have as employers, it is a different position. and it is one that has a requirement to the state that is separate from that of the church. and that's not to say that these doctrinal questions aren't critically important and part of what the church is doing, but they don't belong in this kind of policy. >> john, the name of this hearing is called "lines crossed: separation of church and station, has obama administration trompled on freedom of religion and trampled on freedom of expression." a loaded title. and then we have the ability of employers to opt out of the care act if they have a moral

objection to it. this coming after a poll that shows that a vast majority of americans think the position that the administration has taken is acceptable. why do you think the gop is doubling down on this? >> it surprises me. it's almost political malpractice in my view. i was listening to michael, and i think the president and the administration got themselves into a corner in the original proposal they put forward, but the compromise, which requires insurance companies, rather than catholic-basedinstitutions, i think, to satisfy people. now two-thirds of catholics support it. a plurality of catholics who go to church every week, including myself, support it. i just don't -- i just don't get what they're up to. and i think ---ion, what the bishops do sort of never ceases to surprise me. but why the republicans want to fight the idea that woman ought to be entitled to have contraception under their insurance plans with no copay seems like just crazy to me. >> and i think, also, the optics

of this are not particularly good. we are getting -- i'll let you say it, maggie, since it's from your paper. you have the breaking issue, that carolyn maloney walked out of this, according to politico, walked out of these hearings. planned parenthood tweet showing all the men in the woman. the gop oversight hearing on birth control, what is wrong with this picture? it's all men. again -- >> very smart point, as you just said. >> and i'll let you take it away, maggie. but how, from both a political -- the political calculus and also the optic of this seem irrational. >> yeah, i think the way this was constructed, i think, exactly, as to your original question, is that is this a winner in a general election? it is a real risk in a general election. it is going to play much better with the base. and i think that the way carolyn maloney framed that, one of my colleagues said she may have returned to the hearing after some others walked out, other female members. but the way she framed that was exactly what you will see in a general election, of this is about women, women are a key

swing group. you are not including any women here, you are not consulting any women here. this is less about church doctrines specifically in terms of how it will be played out in a general election than it is about, sort of, rights to your own decision making and rights to availability. >> although, do we put a pin in the fact that men benefit from and appreciate and want birth control as well? and contraceptive. and use contraception. the only danger in this being a woman's only conversation is that it's a family conversation. >> i think what i would say is i think even the biggest issue of all is it's politically, at best, a push, if you play it perfectly. but, also, this is taking up valuable time when you're not talking about jobs and the economy and national security. and the evidence, thus far, have been sidetrack issues or losers. you're going to pursue them, you're going to lose. >> and the number one reason why families make decisions not to have an additional child are economic reasons. if you would like to populate the planet with more americans in these families that make republicans so very happy, then the number one thing you can do

is to provide economic opportunities and jobs. under those circumstances, people actually do have more kids. >> it is a huge question mark. one that will maybe be resolved or not or answered at some point in the next couple of weeks. john podesta, thank you so much for your time. thank you for joining the program. we hope we can entice you back sometime very soon. up next, what now? the actress from pete hoekstra's racially charged campaign ad comes clean on her role on the spot. her explanation and apology, next on "now." and hi, i'm driandrea mitch. coming up next on "andrea mitchell reports," former utah governor jon huntsman joining us as the china's vice president and future leader joins us -- is in the united states. also, rick santorum's super pac makes a giant ad buy in michigan. we'll talk to his big-time donor, foster frieze. and iran says that it is willing to resume nuclear talks with the west, but is it already past the

point of no return on developing a weapon? we'll weigh in with a former diplomat and ambassador representing iran, who's also a former nuclear negotiator, next on "andrea mitchell reports." ♪ we were skipping stones and letting go ♪ [ female announcer ] nature valley granola bars, rich dark chocolate, toasted oats. perfect combinations of nature's delicious ingredients,

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welcome back. it's time for what now? the actress featured in pete hoekstra's debby spend it now ad is asking forgiveness and saying she feels horrible about her role in it. we know that from lisa chan's facebook page that she is very apologetic. my question is, how do you get to a place where you're being filmed in a video, speaking in broken english, and furthering racial stereotypes that are to the great detriment of american society? >> well, actors have a phrase -- work is work. >> i guess so. >> and you know, without having walked a mile in her shoes, who knows? i think we'd all have to make our own calculus on that case.

>> we were talking about china this week in terms of xi jinping and his visit to the white house. and at a time when american rhetoric about the other, and specifically china, is at an all-time high. and when the ad first came out, some people said, i think this is going to be good for hoekstra. i think he'll actually win. he's channeling a sense of anger and injustice, and you know, fear about the other that a lot of americans who feel who are out of jobs. >> xenophobia does increase in bad economies, there's no question. and we've certainly seen that throughout this cycle. but there's a big difference between people having fears and then stoking those fears. and then putting a very sort of alarming picture on those fears, in a very literal way. and i think that's where there was such a difference. you also saw right away, when it came out, a lot of republicans also saying, this is a bad idea. this is a dumb -- i think mike murphy's word was, it's a dumb ad. >> but i'm concerned that the blame now falls on her. because work is work. i was thinking in this moment about "gone with the wind." you were asking this question, how do you end up taking a role

where you stoke these stereotypes, and some think about hatty mcdaniel in "gone with the wind," and even my feeling about "the help," although it's not shared, on the one hand, the question is, how do you end up playing these roles, because there are very few other roles to play. so the real criticism for me is on the system and undoubtedly on the candidate here, not necessarily on the -- >> fair enough. >> i think we're being way too intellectual about this. this was a political ad, period. and they were taking advantage of the moment to define this campaign, this local state campaign, not a national campaign. >> at what expense, michael steele? >> but, again, you can go look at campaign ads at the local level, if you will, and you'll find something you don't like. it's only when it gets bubbled up and people make noise about it that people express these concerns. >> i don't know. maybe i need to watch more local campaign ads to -- >> i'm just saying, i get the whole picture, but it's not as deep as people --

>> i, myself, can't act to save my life, but as mining goes -- anyway. thanks again to josh, michael, melissa, and maggie. josh's new issue of "bloomberg businessweek" hits newsstands tomorrow. josh, thanks for joining the program. and melissa's new show, "melissa harris-perry" begins right here on msnbc this saturday and sunday at 10:00 a.m. set your alarm clocks. good luck, melissa. >> you like my blue? >> that's all for now. we love the blue. i'll see you back here tomorrow at noon eastern, 9:00 a.m. pacific when i am joined by national communications director for the santorum campaign, becky quick, sam stine, gene thrush, phil mooser, and the nation's jeremy cahill. "andrea mitchell reports" is next. hello, andrea. >> hi, there. thanks so much. we're all looking for to melissa's show. coming up here, former utah governor jon huntsman, a big

surprise for visitors touring the white house today, a former iranian nuclear negotiator, and a fourth generation candidate entering politics. all that coming up here on "andrea mitchell reports." ♪ [ woman ] when i grow up, i want to take him on his first flight. i want to run a marathon. i'm going to own my own restaurant. when i grow up, i'm going to start a band. [ female announcer ] at aarp we believe you're never done growing. thanks, mom. i just want to get my car back. [ female announcer ] discover what's next in your life. get this free travel bag when you join at aarp.org/jointoday. email, talk... directions, applications... my phone's dead, uh, my business is dead. my phone battery starts blinking... -beep, beep, beep... -no, no, don't run out... boom phone dies. really? really?? [ man ] so this phone lasts longer than any other phone? this is sweet. -it feels really sleek. it's super thin. the 4g is so fast. this is cool. if i could use my phone all day, i'd definitely feel more powerful.

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