we asked you at the top of the show what you could be doing up at this hour. our producer back at 30 rock has some answers. >> two quick tweets. david writing excited that "morning joe" and willie geist are highlighting education today, it's the only long-term solution for our economy. and sarah writes, teacher in new jersey, i'm grading papers. >> teacher in new jersey. good morning, ft. lee is right. we're going to be here for the next three hours because "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ every person in this chamber can point to a teacher who changed the trajectory of their lives. >> i believe teachers get into teaching because they want every child to do better. >> we have to educate our way to

a better economy. >> teachers doing well should be rewarded. >> we're not going to wait around while ineffective teachers remain in those schools. >> we have to make schools the center of community. >> it's the best way to empower a person's life and to empower our city is to focus on education. >> hey, good morning, it's friday, march 2nd. and welcome to a special town hall edition of "morning joe." i'm joe scarborough, along with mika brzezinski and willie geist. this morning, our education with starbucks brings us to historic ft. lee high school. in the shadows of the george washington bridge in ft. lee, new jersey. >> it is another great success story in american education. a school that has consistently ranked among the top schools in the state. and when success began to slip a few years ago, strong and innovative leadership swiftly

brought the school back to prominence. so is there a formula that is recreatable across the country? we're going to cut through the politics and get into the hot-button issues standing in the way of progress. >> among our guests are going to be new jersey's own governor chris christie, delaware's governor jack markell, and connecticut's governor dannel malloy. >> they're going to sound off. >> they're going to sound off. right here at mid court. reverend al, you and i will be ref. also with us, former washington, d.c. school's chancellor michelle rhee, former governor of vermont, howard dean. and randi weingarten. >> and we're going to take some of your questions along the way. with us onset to kick us off and talk about the news of the day. we have mike barnicle, nice of you to show up.

haven't seen you in a while. msnbc political analyst and visiting professor at nyu and former democratic congressman harold ford jr., and host of politics nation and president of the national action network reverend al sharpton. >> we also have new jersey's favorite son, willie geist. willie geist. >> just after bon jovi. >> i grew up in ridgewood, new jersey, it would take about 15 minutes to get there. went to a public high school that looked a lot like this one. big old beautiful brick building. >> so when you guys played ft. lee in football and basketball, who won? >> we didn't actually play ft. lee. we were in the biggest school group. we were tangling with the big boys, all due respect. >> whatever. whatever! >> great students here, by the way. >> all due respect. >> just saying what's going on here. >> you're going to get beat up. >> that's true. just like high school.

>> exactly. >> no doubt about it. let's go into the news, a lot to talk about. >> we'll start with politics. rick santorum is opening a new line of attacks against mitt romney, over a senate measure dealing with contraception. >> are we there again? seriously. >> what is going on? yesterday, democrats defeated a republican proposal that would've allowed employers to opt out of providing certain insurance coverage based on moral or religious objections. what year are we in? what year is this? i'm checking. >> 2012. >> thank you. republicans say the president's plan violates religious liberty by forcing insurers to pay for birth control. lawmakers on both sides of the aisle reacted to the bill. >> we've moved on to the blunt amendment. a blunt sweeping overreach into women's health. part of the republican agenda of disrespecting women's health issues. >> catholics, many other

christians, many people of faith do not believe in certain activity and treatment that is mandated now to be covered by this mandatory insurance. and that is crossing a line that we have never before crossed in this country. >> the closeness of this vote shows how high the stakes are for women this year. a republican-led senate might pass this bill. a republican president like mitt romney would definitely sign it. >> this issue has become a sad example of election year politics. i believe that a good compromise could have been reached and should have been worked out. >> so, you know, mike barnicle, on the campaign trail, mitt romney a couple of days ago tripped up over this. it was a close vote, there were some democrats voting for this blunt amendment. there were republicans voting

against it. at the end of the day, it failed by two or three votes. when you have extremes on both sides claiming this is a clear cut case of religious intolerance or violating women's freedom. it's a divided issue. but the question is, why are the republicans obsessing on this issue when we have education reform to worry about. when we've got the deficit. mika and i were with simpson and bowles yesterday talking about the challenges regarding our long-term debt. why are we obsessing over something that was resolved before davy jones sang his first note for the monkeys? >> let's take a moment of silence for that, by the way. >> okay. >> but look. take all the candidates running for the republican nomination right now, the ones that are left. put them here in the middle of this gym and have them talk about education rather than contraception. that's what they ought to be talking about. why they're talking about contraception is absolutely, i think, not only beyond us here,

on this panel, i would venture to say, but it's beyond the grasp of most americans who are thinking about this election. >> yeah. >> totally beyond their grasp. >> it's red meat. >> i think that mike is right. we are in the midst of a serious problem with education in the country. i've been there, and i think to your credit, joe and mika, we've tried to deal with this all over the country. why we are debating about something that really is a forgone conclusion anyway. i mean, people are going to use contraception whether people believe in it or not religiously. what are we talking about? what about saving the future of the country in terms of kids, in terms of funding education, in terms of teaching evaluation, accountability, and innovation? what about that? >> i bet if you did a show of hands, we'd choose to talk about the education in the country rather than talking about the religious and moral debates as to whether or not it should be passed. >> the thing is, willie, whether you're talking to democrats or

independents or this with republicans, i'm a republican. i talk to a lot of pro-life republicans over the past week who have been saying, what's going on? >> move on. >> move on. this was resolved in 1965. move on. there was a pew poll that showed 99% of women in america have used birth control. why are we still debating this issue? >> it's a settled issue. it was very telling the day before the vote, two days ago, john boehner, all the republican leadership were up there, did not mention this. didn't want to talk about it. they don't want to get mired in this. rick santorum got mired in these topics for two weeks. it probably cost him michigan. >> oh, yeah. >> these are not salient issues to the american people and i hope today we'll talk about some of the issues. >> before we get into education, let's talk about the president, he delivered a speech regarding something that a lot of americans are concerned about, rising gas prices. >> he was at a fundraiser in new york city last night and talking about rahm, as well.

urging to step up the pressure to end tax breaks for oil and gas companies. in a speech from new hampshire yesterday, he pushed for new investments in green energy while calling for an end to government subsidies on fossil fuels. the white house plan does nothing to lower the immediate price at the pump. aaa putting the national average at $3.74 a gallon, that is up about 30 cents in the past month. this is one of these issues, joe, that could be a game changer at the last minute. we talk about the bickering between the candidates, but a big issue like this could turn things badly. >> this is always a huge issue, especially in summers, people get out of schools like this, harold, they pack their family up to go visit relatives. if gas is at $4, $4.50 a gallon, it's a real problem. i want to put you in a stran strange -- >> awkward position? >> awkward position. >> good. >> you put me -- >> i'm going to do it. i'm going to do it.

because i've always taken the president's position on this. i've fought against tax relief and subsidies for oil companies, for offshore drilling. but give the defense for these subsidies that are out there. >> i'd say two things -- >> because every time i say this, you know, people are like, oh, you're simplifying it. it's not that easy, you're demagoguing it. >> first of all, the president's right. we need a menu of options and pursue them all. what we're doing with our own policies here, if we don't provide some sort of incentives, subsidies or tax breaks, whatever the oil and gas companies. we're disadvantaging our own natural resources and energy production companies here in our own country versus those in brazil and around the globe. i think the president should approve the keystone pipeline. i think any opportunity we have to flow through our country and help our refining capacity is a good thing. for the first time this year. for the first time this year, america, for the first time in

more than 70 years, the united states is a net export, meaning we exported more refined crude product than we ever have. >> we don't need to give big oil companies that make billions and billions of dollars subsidies to go out and drill, do we? they're doing pretty well in the free market by themselves. >> well, if you were to rank and you ask most americans to rank the ten largest oil companies, energy companies in the world, most would assume exxon and some of our own u.s. companies would be at the top. in fact, they're all state-owned companies around the globe. states meaning other countries in the middle east, europe, asia, south america, they are the largest producers. we get excited in this country when we talk about apple. it's a great u.s. company. but exxon mobil's a great u.s. company, as well, and we seem very shy to talk about. i support what the president's trying to do. what i don't support is taking on our own energy companies which in many ways will reduce costs here if we're willing to tap into natural resources, offshore around this country. we can do it safely, and i think

we can do it in a way that's not only safe, but dependable, reliable, and will drive down prices in our own country. >> reverend, how big of an issue is this for working class americans? >> it's a huge issue. because prices could go up. my argument against harold's argument, i don't know if he was being awkward or honest, but my answer to that is they are making record profits now. these subsidies and loopholes were put in -- >> and have been. >> -- when they were not making record profits and needed that to stay in business. they don't need that now to stay in business. they're making record profits and want us to pay for it at the pump. you no longer give people subsidies and all of these things when it's going to cost the taxpayers while they are flushing with billions. >> there's nothing wrong with figuring out where they're most effective. but we can't deny the global marketplace is what determines oil prices. and if we -- if what's happening

in iran and happening around the globe is affecting it even more. what we should not do is disadvantage our own energy companies, which are making great strides. >> you don't disadvantage people making record profits. >> but reverend -- >> exxon is making $9 billion a quarter. please let me be that disadvantaged. >> yeah. >> and to take federal money -- >> you really put harold in an awkward position. >> you're the same person that defends the tax cuts for the wealthiest of americans, tax cuts for industries. shareholders own exxon mobil. this is not a mr. exxon mobil. you've defended grover norquist in the past who has made it clear he wants no tax increases. you and i have had this discussion. if you're going to put me in the box -- >> you're mischaracterizing my position. >> you've done that with me then. exxon mobil is owned by shareholders, other oil companies. where they do wrong, we should take them on. but if we want to reduce oil

prices, reduce gas prices in this country, we can't have it both ways. we can't only say we're going to cherry pick and be about the energy sources we want to support. i don't want to be put in the box of supporting oil companies. >> you did a good job. you talk about iran. let's get there. tensions in iran are looming over energy costs with heightened concerns with an -- >> you're going on and on, harold. >> stop it, boys. >> you were afraid you gave somebody a 30-second tv ad in a future campaign. >> harold ford loves big oil. that's right. while grandma pays $6 a barrel, harold ford wants them to get more. >> concerns about a strike on tehran's nuclear program, of course the worry there is that it would drive up oil prices worldwide. and at a fundraiser last night, the fundraiser responded to a heckler who shouted "no war with iran." take a look. >> we ended torture, we promoted

human rights, we made it clear that america's a pacific power. we demonstrated that if countries like burma travel down the road of democratic reform, they will find a new relationship with the united states. and we are leading again by the power of our moral example. that's what changes. none of this -- >> no war in iran. >> nobody's announced a war, young lady. but we appreciate your sentiment. you're jumping the gun a little bit there. >> the administration has repeatedly urged israel to allow more time for economic sanctions against iran before considering, of course, military action. >> no doubt about it. it's an absolute mess. you look what's happening in

iran, syria. you know what, mike barnicle, just like his old man, assad is getting away with murder. >> literally. >> literally getting away with murder. the international community sitting back, doing nothing while they continue to slaughter young children -- >> the eyes of the world on this one country, they are literally killing thousands of people right in front of in eyes of the world, and we seem helpless to do anything about it. >> i don't understand the difference between what gadhafi was doing -- i don't know that georgia dadhafi killed this man own civilians. but willie, you're where council on foreign relations goes when they're trying to figure out the use of american force. what's the difference? does anybody understand the difference between gadhafi killing his civilians and requiring a nato response and assad killing his civilians? >> you could argue this is worse in some respects. we're watching it on television play out. gadhafi had a history, of

course, of sponsoring terrorism. this was happening before our eyes. there was a news alert yesterday and it said u.n. issues condemnation of killing in syria. every week they issue a new condemnation. the question is, what is the next step beyond condemning it? what do you do? do you want to commit ground troops? put in nato air strikes? what do you do? >> you know, joe, it gets to the reality of the state of the armed forces in this country and what's happened over the past 12 years. and it's been stretched so thin with people doing multiple tours of afghanistan as well as multiple tours in iraq. what's happened to the armed forces in this country and the families of the armed forces in this country. there's strength in the resources and it's been depleted. we can no longer think of sending people all across the globe to settle situations like this. >> in addition, we can't get the security council, can't get a

unanimous vote in the council. the chinese and russians continue to object in large part because of geopolitics and energy politics plays a role in all of that, as well. susan rice who i think is doing an outstanding job as a u.n. ambassador faces continued opposition for some reason on the part of -- and we understand that the russians have a relationship with assad, but it's all about energy and geopolitics. >> it's the russians, chinese, it's deplorable. we're going to get to a break in just a moment. >> hold on a second. barnicle wanted to wrap it up if there's anything else he wants to say about oil companies. >> you don't believe that the energy companies are screwing us? >> look, i'm not -- >> you just said it for five minutes. >> i'll tell you this, do you want to ask those who are taking aim at our soldiers in the middle east. we're the only group of people ever to send our soldiers to war and at the same time finance those trying to kill them by

going to the pump every day. the money we're spending to fill up our suvs and cars and homes we're using, if we're not using domestic sources, most of the money is going right back to those who are trying to do harm -- >> that's good. that's good. >> well, we want to thank all of you for coming to our energy town hall meeting this morning. >> it's educational. >> and on the way out, exxon mobil has some leaflets on how you too can help the underprivileged oil companies. no, we're going to talk about education. we're going -- because they're troublemakers back here. >> and we're going to talk about it because the republican candidates, they're still fighting over michigan and who won and how they won. it's ridiculous, but we are just getting started on this special edition of "morning joe" live from ft. lee high school in new jersey. >> still ahead, we'll be bringing in new jersey governor

chris christie, governor of delaware, jack markell, and dannel malloy. up next, though, mike allen with the first look at the politico playbook. but first, let's go to bill karins. he's somewhere on an oil derk in the gulf of mexico. what's the weekend forecast look like, bill? >> well, it looks better than it does later today. we are talking about another tornado outbreak that's going to occur in the same areas that are cleaning up from the one two days ago. if you're in ohio, indiana, kentucky, northern alabama, you have a chance to see tornadoes today. maybe even a few strong tornadoes in your region. we'll probably have millions of people affected by this storm and millions of dollars worth of damage being done. one strong storm this morning going to travel north of st. louis up by st. charles. large hail, possibly damaging hail with that storm. the tornado threat is more or less from about 2:00 p.m. this afternoon through about 10:00 p.m. this evening. and i really got my eyes on kentucky and tennessee.

make sure you have your plans in place in case those storms head your way. as far as the weekend forecast goes, all the strong storms will exit early saturday morning. it should be a decent saturday around the country. and it should be a beautiful sunday. many of the areas of the country should be dry and looking at a lot of sunshine. today, though, serious weather concerns and maybe deadly concerns in the areas of the ohio valley. you're watching "morning joe." we're brewed by starbucks. ♪[music plays] ♪[music plays]

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being debated, i believe, later this week, that deals with banning or allowing employers to ban providing female contraception. have you taken a position on it? >> i'm not for the bill. contraception is working just

fine. let's just leave it alone. >> of course i support the blunt amendment. i thought he was talking about some state law that prevented people from getting contraception. i really misunderstood the question. >> that is -- i got -- dear oxford english dictionary, i submit to you a new measure of time, the romney. it's defined as the 3 1/2-hour window in which a grown man running for president can change his deeply held conviction to its opposite. >> yesterday, i don't know if you heard about this. the u.s. beat italy in soccer for the first time ever. yeah! it's true, yeah. america hasn't embarrassed italy this badly since the first olive garden opened.

>> welcome back to a special edition of "morning joe." we are brewing together at ft. lee high school. but it's time now for politico, willie. >> let's go down to washington, d.c. where we find the chief white house correspondent for politico, mr. mike allen. he's got a look at the playbook. mike, good morning. >> happy friday out there at ft. lee. >> happy friday to you, mike allen. let's talk about some major gop donors and the kind of impact they're having on this campaign. you're doing some reporting about foster friess and shelly adelson. >> we talk about super pacs, but we're only now beginning to see where they really make a difference, how they're really changing campaign 2012. and one of the ways is the topics the candidates talk about. every survey, both nationally and in these primary states show voters care most about the economy and jobs.

but the candidates talk about a bunch of other things. and the top donor to senator santorum's super pac is very concerned about sharia law, also about israel. and the gingrich super pac, same thing, top issue there for that backer is moving the embassy in the u.s. -- excuse me, moving the u.s. embassy in israel from tel aviv to jerusalem. so we see this in the candidates' speeches, we may see it in the super pac ads. but the biggest effect of the super pacs, to the great frustration of the romney campaign is that santorum and gingrich would probably not still be in this race if it weren't for the big money from these outside groups that are behind them in these states, starting with senator santorum in iowa. it's totally changed the chessboard, and it's the reason

that this race may go on and on and on. >> that's why these guys can stick around for as long as they can. before we let you go, you have a peek into george will's sunday column, a preview people are talking about. the headline george will says republicans may face a 1964 route in this election. >> yeah, this is juicy. i knew this was coming but didn't think it would come until summer. already in this sunday's column, george will talking about how the presidency may be a lost cause for republicans. he said that if either governor romney or senator santorum becomes the nominee, they're conservatives of some sort and conservatives should vote for them. but he says the primary objective of republican voters this year should be to keep the house, get the senate, act as a check on a lame duck president obama. he says there are things that matter besides the presidency.

as a big pinprick in the balloon of whoever's going to be the gop nominee reflecting both dissatisfaction with these candidates and the sort of general malaise in the gop base. he wants to boost it up. >> that really is, willie, that is a juicy column. and by the way, i've got a question for you, willie. how do you know you're a political dork? if you call a george will column that's not come out yet "juicy." and yet, this is, mike allen, that's a great find. we all are. >> yes, you are. >> but 1964, mike, you were 65 back in '64. >> cut it out, i was 63. >> does this look like it's lining up? >> the 1964 election resulted in what they called then the fabulous 89th congress in which the congress of the united states resembled the massachusetts legislature. so it was so heavily democratic,

democrats were swept into office in the fall of 1964, senate and house. taking a look at the election right now today, george will might be on to something. >> might be on to something. >> as long as they keep talking about contraception rather than what goes on this high school each and every day and in the lives of ordinary people, huge sweep. >> and you know i'm right. and that's what they're going down with. that was the slogan. >> mike allen. >> we love mike. >> happy friday. >> have a good weekend. >> happy friday. >> kids are looking strong. coming up next, we're going to finally talk about this school get everybody involved. >> yes! yes! >> where we are, why it's special, some of the administrators and teachers who are making it that way when we come back live to ft. lee high school in new jersey. [ female announcer ] if whole grain isn't the first ingredient

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♪ welcome back to ft. lee high

school in ft. lee, new jersey. we're just across the george washington bridge in the hudson river from new york city. and it's time to talk about this school and what we are doing here this morning. it's been a highly regarded school for a long time. >> great school. >> in the top 100 for years, dipped a little bit in test scores a few years ago, brought in new administrators, new people, got a new message. you'll meet some of them right here. ft. lee, new jersey, the first town you hit when you cross over the hudson river from new york city on the george washington bridge and home to a big brick building on a hill that is ft. lee high school. >> it's always been a school that has had successes. we've maintain status in the state of new jersey in the top 100. >> a strong tradition, but when the principal arrived in 2010, she found a school that slipped from its standards. the state labeling it a school in need of improvement. >> we had a significant percentage of the population that were struggling to meet the benchmark expectations that are required.

so it showed us that we had two levels of ft. lee high school. >> we needed to do a better job on our end to make sure that every kid was receiving what he or she needs. >> with the support of the assistant superintendent of ft. lee public schools and as of last fall the interim superintendent, principal church told her teachers they had to do better. feathers were ruffled, some teachers were laid off, but in a single school year, the students' numbers did a 180. >> i'm proud to say, and this is not my achievement, it's their achievement, that in one year they flipped the school so that we were no longer in a needs improvement status. >> reporter: a 33-year-old native of new jersey says administrators and teachers performed that turn around with a new philosophy. >> stop blaming the kids. i don't want to hear they go home and don't have enough food to eat or don't have a place to do their homework. i can't change that. but what i can do is change the services i provide and how hard i work for kids and that's

what's going to make the difference in my mind. >> he has created an environment where, you know, students and teachers interact on much higher level, almost like a collegiate academic environment. >> i definitely see a change. teachers are a lot more hands on and pay attention to students as individuals. >> i feel like a lot of the teachers are more comfortable in their skin. >> reporter: the hard-charging style of reform has made him a favorite of new jersey governor chris christie and caused some friction with the teachers unions. >> i don't bash teachers, i bash the bad ones. okay. and that's what my job is as a leader. my job is to lift up the great people and it's to weed out the bad ones who are not going to help our kids because our kids can't afford one year with one bad teacher because they will never recover academically. >> he does not mince words when talking about the ongoing anti-christie media blitz paid for by the new jersey education association. >> instead of spending $30 million or whatever the money

you wasted to put these stupid billboards up and down the turnpike, okay, why wouldn't you give that back to the first-year teacher who you're pulling $2,000 out of their salary and you're paying for it on their back who can barely pay their rent. >> reporter: shaped by his own experience as a teacher, he considers himself a warrior against the status quo. >> if you're supporting great things, then i stand beside you. but if you're enabling bad things to happen to kids, you're darn right i stand across the ring from you. >> the interim superintendent, he's been in that job since last fall, but making a difference, he's the first to point out because of the teachers, because of principal church who we'll meet later in the show. they did some simple things when they came in. they repainted the school, get people feeling better about the place they go to learn every day and instituted a new mentality and he'll be with us next hour to talk more about it. >> i liked when one of the students said that you interviewed that the teachers felt more comfortable in their skin. we're learning more and more.

and we've been doing this, now, mika, for two, three years, four years, going around. and we're seeing an evolution in all the research. you look at the gates foundation, the billions, it all comes down to great teachers. how do you make the teachers environment better so they can work with the students, so they can work with the parents, so they can work with the principals. >> and not to sugar coat it. obviously having a beautiful environment to work in and fresh coat of paint helps, but also, it looks like some very, very tough calls had to be made. and that's what we're going to be debating today. not a pretty process. >> that's what it's about in the end, isn't it, reverend? empowering your teachers, getting them comfortable in their own skin, and demanding excellence. >> demanding excellence and expecting it. i think when you hear that student say the teacher comfortable in their own skin, it gives the same confidence in the students. students can read if you are not

comfortable and afraid or if you're unsure and insecure. and it projects into them. and i think what was striking about the interim superintendent said, he wouldn't take excuses. i don't want to hear they didn't eat enough at home, don't blame it on the parents. you do your job and let us try -- and i think parents should be accountable, but shouldn't be the excuse. >> we heard that at the last school we went to, the bronx charter for excellence, the principal said you know what i call those problems at home? that's life. people have problems in their lives, we have to do what we can in the schools. >> again, willie, explain that's not a teacher or a principal being insensitive, that's a teacher or principal saying, you know what? i don't want to hear you making an excuse because of their tough situation. you have to rise above and lift them up, right? >> it's very simple, no excuses. if you make no excuses for yourself, you'll do a better job in the school. you accept what they have at home, there's nothing you can do to control that and move forward. and we'll have a lot of people talking about this coming up.

we'll bring in howard dean. >> very good. >> also the governor of vermont who has dealt with education, michelle rhee, also jon meacham. a lot still ahead when we come to ft. lee high school. [ female announcer ] goodnight gluttony,

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where they want. doing what they want. ameriprise. the strength of a leader in retirement planning. the heart of 10,000 advisors working with you one-to-one. together for your future. ♪ we have beaten down educators. we have to elevate the profession. we have to strengthen the profession. we have to reward excellence. great teachers, principals, make a huge difference in our nation's children. we have to invest in them and, yes, we need to reward

excellence particularly when great teachers are taking on tough assignments in inner city schools, rural and remote areas and areas of critical need like math and science. we have to be much more creative than we have been in the past. >> welcome back to "morning joe." we are brewing together in ft. lee, new jersey at ft. lee high school. and we have the former governor of vermont and the former chairman of the democratic national committee, and we have jon meacham. and former chancellor of the d.c. school system now founder and ceo of students first, michelle rhee back on the show. good to have you all onboard this morning. reverend al is with us, as well. >> michelle, we've been doing this for several years. we've got a secretary of education that is committed to education reform. you've been fighting the good fight. howard dean, reverend al has been hanging out with newt gingrich. >> well, there's that. >> over the past several years. >> got to do what you got to do.

>> a lot of people are onboard with education reform. but are we making any progress? >> well, we are making some progress. if you look at what's happened over the last couple of years, we've had many, many more states taking on important issues like getting rid of last-in, first-out policies, putting in place important teacher evaluation systems that are rigorous that would reward the best performers and weed out the ineffective teachers. we have more choices for families. we need to make sure we're in a position where no family ever feels like they're trapped in a failing school. so you have laws like california's new parent trigger law that allow parents to take over a failing school and turn it around if they see fit. but at the end of the day, none of this matters if it doesn't result in better student outcomes. and at this point if you look at that -- those numbers, we have more than doubled the amount of

money that we are spending per child on education in this country over the last few decades, and yet the results have remained stagnant. >> that's a great segue to you, governor dean. you were known as somebody that was progressive on many fronts but fiscally conservative as governor of vermont. what would you say if you inherited a school system in vermont that spent more money per student than any other school system in america and yet continued to fail? which is what the united states of america does. how do we make it more efficient? >> well, the first thing is, i know it's all about what goes on in schools. but i don't believe that's entirely true. in the really tough inner city schools, 20% of the kids can't learn because from 0 to 3, there were abysmal situations. we've got to do a lot of things michelle was talking about. but the best investment in the really big-time problem schools is between 0 and 3, so kids arrive -- it's one of the original goals of george h.w. bush's education plan.

goal number one has never been met, every child arrives in kindergarten ready to learn. by 3, brain capacity has dropped so much it's hard to catch up to that. i don't want to make excuses for teachers either, but the truth is, there are a lot of teachers who can't teach not because they're lousy teachers, but because the kids are in trouble by the time they get here. we have to deal with that. >> we do. and we used to think if you didn't get a student by the time they were 15, and then if you didn't by the time they were five. science is showing us we're losing children even before then. let's go back to efficiency. politicians, it's easy for politicians to go out and say our schools are failing, we need to get more money into the school system. how do we make the investment count? how do we make it more efficient? because again, we're spending more money per student than any country in the world. >> first of all, you have to get the efficiency. i came from new haven, connecticut, they fired 34 teachers last year who were not

qualified and didn't do the remedial things and they are paying people who stay more, washington, d.c. has an interesting contract. top teachers get $85,000 a year, big raises, $25,000 raise. the bottom ones get up or out and after a year, i've forgotten how many they fired last year, 30 or 50 or something like that. it is beginning to change. it just isn't changing fast enough and kids are still being left behind. >> let me ask you quickly, michelle, before we go to jon meacham. the end of "waiting for superman" you go off the football with your helmet. you have been beaten down. but the end of that story, actually, is that while you ran up against a lot of obstacles that there has been progress since then. some of the things you were pushing for are actually being implemented, not just in d.c. but as howard says across the country. >> well, we did fight very, very hard and it was an uphill battle. the things we were pushing. we were pushing for a contract we felt was good for kids,

right. so that did not put adults' interests above what was in the best interest of children. we got rid of tenure, lock step pay, seniority based layoffs. we created a system in the best interest of the children. and the entire time we were fighting that, you know, it got a lot of national attention. but we do believe that it did help move the ball forward nationally. because now you're seeing a lot more states and school districts take on teacher evaluation systems, for example, where how a teacher evaluated is based on how much their students grow. you cannot in any world just write off 20% of the children who attend a school district and say they can't -- no, you said -- you said 20% of the kids in that school, in those school districts cannot learn because of what happened to them. that's what you said. and i think this is a problem we face in america today when we are willing to look in 20% of

our parents' eyes and say i'm sorry, we can't teach your kid. now, do we have to acknowledge the fact there are challenges? absolutely, but we can't write them off. >> i'll get to john, but respond. >> first of all, i said 20% of the inner city kids. they can learn. but in the meantime, while they're trying to catch up, those are the ones disrupting the class, they need intense remedial education, and have a relatively low success rate when they get to -- but i shouldn't have said they can't learn. they can learn, it just takes enormous effort to do that catch-up. and this is about neuroscience, this isn't about some feeling some touchy feeling program for liberal democrats like me. this is just neuroscience. >> hold on. >> i just want some accountability. >> let's go to jon, but the bottom line is, though, you have teachers that face a double problem. you've got students that obviously have some neurological deficiencies so they're tougher to teach and then, jon meacham,

you have this happening in some of the toughest classrooms in america. so you've stacked that on top of each other. it is an uphill battle from day one. >> you know, i was in the teacher conversation, you know, there's the great biblical injunction to whom much is given, much is expected. much is expected much should be given. and so the teachers who when ordained people correct you on scripture. fish in a barrel, reverend. but we as a culture as a national security question, as an economic competitive question, we put this enormous burden on teachers. and as if teachers are somehow isolated from the rest of a child's life or the life of a community. and i do think it requires a wholistic approach. and i think you're both right. >> well, exactly. >> you're sounding like harold ford now. >> i'm not mentioning anything about saudi arabia. >> we should require many from the teachers who are asking for

more. and there's a great argument here for merit-based. but howard and reverend al, i'd like you to respond. i think your point is that if you blame the teachers completely, kids come and they're incapable of keeping up and the whole system is being pulled down, it's unfair to put it squarely on the teachers. i think sometimes that's where it gets emotional. where they feel like they're not being understood. reverend? >> well, i think that the challenge is that i agree with ms. rhee on the fact that every child can learn. the question is when you broad brush and demonize all teachers, what about the teacher that can teach that student? that comes from that background that was challenged 0 to 3? what about that teacher that is gifted and knows how to reach that child that others couldn't reach and they get swept out with the -- with the reputation of bad teachers? and i think that we've seen aft and others try to come -- new haven experiment is good.

try to come and say let's have a combination of interest here that work for the kids first. but don't act like all teachers can't teach some of these children that come from neighborhoods like i did because i had some teachers that could reach me. >> well, of course. >> and should not be underappreciated. >> of course. there is a balance, though, in what we're saying. obviously you have to recognize the challenges that teachers in schools face. but michelle, also, we need to be very careful not to engage in what jeb bush always called bigotry of low expectations and say this student looks this way, they come from this housing project, therefore we're just going to assume they're not able to learn. because i think we all had a teacher and we can all name a teacher that thought we were better than we were. and that inspired us to reach that high level. >> absolutely. i was with a group of children not too long ago and one of them said something very interesting to me. she said you're out, you're talking on tv all the time.

she said if you were to send a message to the american people, what i would want you to say is that it doesn't matter, necessarily, where we come from every day, it matters where we go to. if we come into a school that is welcoming of us, that's interesting, that's engaging, we can achieve at the highest levels. >> we're going to talk throughout the morning about this. and still ahead, governor chris christie has just arrived. he'll join us in a few minutes. keep it on "morning joe." live from ft. lee high school in new jersey. i knew it'd be tough on our retirement savings, especially in this economy. but with three kids, being home more really helped. man: so we went to fidelity. we talked about where we were and what we could do. we changed our plan and did something about our economy.

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5 whole grains, 110 calories. creamy, dreamy peanut butter taste in a tempting new cereal. mmm! [ female announcer ] new multi-grain cheerios peanut butter. ♪ this is the argument that a lot of supporters make. you know, people who are well off have options. somebody who is not well off and

whose child is in a failing school, why shouldn't that person, those parents have the same options to get the kid out of the failing school into one that works with the help of the state? >> those parents should have exactly the same options and they do. we would argue not and say let's work more closely and -- >> they can't afford. you know that. some of these parents can't afford. >> life's not always fair and i'm sorry about that. >> that level of arrogance. that level of puffed up, rich man baloney is unacceptable in this state. he should resign. he should resign today. because for him to take a look at our poor children in this state and tell them that his answer about them having an option or opportunity for better education is life isn't fair, well, life should get a lot less fair for him today and he should resign.

>> well now. all sides. all sides. first governor chris christie, then cole. i'm watching you. he said he's watching me. >> right there. she's the troublemaker. you need to watch her. >> welcome back to "morning joe." we're live from ft. lee high school in new jersey where there's some very, very energetic children here with us. we're brewing together. focusing on education and the men are already bickering. joining us now, republican governor of new jersey chris christie. >> look who showed up. so, governor, i want to -- >> wow. look at this. >> all right. >> welcome to jersey, joe. >> what is this? you're like mitt romney, do you pack the place? what's going on here? so anyway, governor, we were

going to talk about education. we said we were going to talk about gay marriage instead. no, we'll stay away from that. so the union guy. you said that, i mean -- >> well, listen, here's the bottom line. the great thing is every once in a while in public life, somebody tells the truth. somebody tells what they really think. and what you just saw there is exactly what the teachers' union thinks. what do you do with poor children in failing schools and they have no alternative and they see their children's dreams? >> and they're trapped. >> what do you do with those people? and he says, life's not fair. okay, now this is a guy who makes $350,000 a year plus benes on top of it, drives his big luxury car into trenton every day on the backs of working teachers who pay that salary and of course he can say life's not fair because if you're him, life's pretty fair for him. but life's not fair for the

single mother in camden who has been waiting for three decades for new jersey to fix that public school. and they haven't done it because it's in the grip of the teachers union. good teachers, awful union. >> you say awful union. >> yeah. >> any time you attack a teachers union, the response is that you're going after the teachers themselves. >> yeah, well, that's why i say good teachers. >> how do you separate that message, though? how do you get that message out? not just to the voters of new jersey, but also, also to the teachers? >> well, because you keep saying it over and over again. and they'll mischaracterize you and mischaracterize me. when i talk to working teachers around the state. and i say i'd like to pay you more for your excellence. i'd like to make sure that we don't guarantee somebody a job after three years and one day even if they're not performing. i want you to be held accountable. great teachers have no worry about being held accountable. and what i say to them all the time about their union is, you

should have a union as good as you are and you don't. >> and by the way, let's say for the record here, not all unions, mike barnicle are created equally. there are some governors who are reformers who are able to team up with unions and actually get things done. >> well, state by state. >> yeah. >> teachers unions change state by state, massachusetts, the teachers unions are much more amenable to improving education at a local level than some other state unions appear to be. what is the issue here in new jersey at the union level? not at the teacher level, at the union level with regard to vouchers? >> they have made it very clear to me and to the legislature that that is an unacceptable alternative. and they will fight in every way they can. >> all vouchers. >> all vouchers of any kind. pilot program of any kind. no chance, that's what they've said. i think we're going to change that this year. i think we're going to get a limited program to help these kids. >> and willie geist did a

profile on this school, on the superintendent specifically who has had to make pretty tough changes when it slipped a little bit. he's going to be joining us next block, but it's not a pretty process trying to get reform in place. and it's gritty, it's ugly. he looks energetic, he's young, he's able to do a lot here. but can you imagine across the board how we do this? >> it's very difficult. he had to come in and do some things along with the principal and teachers that were not particularly popular. one of the things he did say. and he echoed some things that arne duncan said a few weeks ago. if you're a 22-year-old, there's a $100,000 a year job out there, if you're a teacher, he said pay them $200,000. we have tax revenue that we're spending on other things that could be spent on teachers to make it as prestigious a position as it should be. why can't we given the amount of money that exists in government

coffers to spend on things that people don't think it should be spent on. can you pay a teacher $100,000 a year right out of college? >> first of all, that's the premise, right? that we pay -- we spend more in new jersey more than any state in america. we average $17,700 per pupil, and in the major city we're spending $24,000 plus. it's not a resource issue. i think from our perspective is, we want accountability in return for that. so i want to pay the better teacher the better achieving teacher, i want to pay them more. i have no problem paying them that kind of money, but i also want the liberty to have the superintendents and principals to say when a teacher's not performing, we have an objective review process to go through that. if they don't improve and not performing, they need to go. and we shouldn't be paying people just to occupy space which in some schools in new jersey we're doing. in the last ten years, you know how teachers have lost tenure for ineffectiveness in new

jersey in the last ten years? 17. we have 120,000 public school teachers. >> okay. and governor, the response to that from the union is how do you define a bad teacher? what's the objective analysis? how do you know exactly? >> so complex, willie. it really is. do you have kids? >> yeah. >> you go to back to school night? >> yeah. >> by the time you get to back to school night, do you already have a sense as to whether your kid got the good third grade teacher or the not so good third grade teacher? >> yeah. >> everything in life is subjective. but when you try to put test scores into it and they say, well, they're not good because then you have to teach the test. that's objective. well, grades, you know, that can vary from teacher to teacher. every straw man they put up, they knock down. and they tell you -- they tell us as parents, this is too complex. you're not equipped to judge whether i'm good or not. but when you walk into back to school night and your kid's in the third grade and you see your

friend and you say, who do you have for third grade? and she said i have mrs. smith and they go, oh, okay. good luck next year. or they say i have mrs. jones and they say oh, i love mrs. jones. my kids had her, she was the best. she stayed after school to help them, e-mailed me when there was problems. this is not that complex. >> you know, the thing is obviously, willie, there have to be guidelines. >> of course. >> on how we do this. but the bottom line is, every guideline you set up, the teachers union says it's insufficient, there's no way, it's unfair. i know when kate walked into kindergarten, i had about 20 parents who said who did she get? i said mr. smith, they said, she just got the best teacher she will have in her entire k-12. i mean, there is like you said, we know who the good teachers are, who the bad teachers are, and as long as the unions stand

in the way of figuring out a way to grade those teachers, we're going to have this battle. >> what do you do about the demographics that are involved in here? in terms of grading teachers? in large urban states, new jersey's a large urban state, there are, i would assume, many schools where the kids go to school, that's the safest place they'll be all day, that's the only place they'll get a hot meal all day. and to take those test scores of those kids. >> here's what you do, mike. here's the way we've proposed our plan, you judge based on upon improvement not to a raw score. if they come in with a group of kids who are challenged, maybe you didn't have a good education k-3, you got them in the fourth grade and they're reading at a first grade level. what we're looking for is improvement. a teacher who takes a kid in the fourth grade and comes in with a first grade level and moves them up to third grade level, that's an amazing teacher.

we want to judge teachers on improvement. how much do they move a child from september to june? how much do they show improvement? that's a fair measure no matter what child you're dealing with. because what every parent wants every year, even for kids who have developmental disabilities, other challenges, all they want to see is their kid reach their maximum potential improve. not that it's going to be perfect and that's not what we're suggesting. we're suggesting a system that's saying let's test at the beginning of the year, at the end of the year, let's see how we did. >> how do you entice a teacher? a young, great, smart teacher not just to go to where i was lucky enough to go, ridgewood high school, one of the best public schools in the country, how do you convince that teacher with money to go into that school? >> few things we've suggested. one, in schools that are more difficult to recruit teachers in like some of our inner city schools that are more difficult, you pay those folks more and pay

science and math teachers more. i got in trouble for this because i said i don't think we should pay science and math teacher as much as a gym teacher. then they say, he hates gym teachers. it will be more difficult to convince people proficient at science and math to become teachers than to go work as an engineer at facebook. we're competing with the private sector too. merit pay will help, as well. you work hard, perform, get results, you get paid more, as well. >> let's talk about your new jersey budget. you were known as a guy that -- well, you're characterized as a guy that takes on these budget issues and you slash and burn. but yet if you look at new jersey's budget on education, there's actually a ramp up. where did you find the money? >> by cutting spending in other places. you know, what i said all along was in the first two years we had difficult budgets to deal with. $13 billion worth of deficits. and i said this is going to be

painful. but if we make the hard choices now, when we start to recover, which we've started to recover in new jersey, we're going to have the money to spend on our priorities. this year we increase k-12 spending by $13 million, it's an all-time high, $8.8 billion in state aid. we increased aid to higher education this year. we're investing in the things we care about. hospital funding at nearly $1 billion to help the neediest in our society. we're having a tough time in this economy, making sure there's safety net hospitals to take care of them if they need it. we've done these things and we're doing them in a way that is balanced, that is smart, and is investing in new jersey's economic future. because if we get a better educated young people who are going to stay in the state, they're going to become better workers here. >> and they responded with approval ratings for your handling of the budget. big picture, want to know what you think about arne duncan, his

approach to education, this president, and does mitt romney, your candidate, have an education plan that's better? >> listen, i have a lot of agreement with the president and arne duncan on these issues and i've said that publicly many times. i think secretary duncan has been an enormous breath of fresh air. he says it like it is. i don't agree with every single thing and nor does he agree with me on every single thing, but we've found common ground. >> you consider him in a partner in education? >> no question. >> and the president deserves credit for that too. and i'm sure he's not out there freelancing, so the president allows him to do the things he's doing. so this is my approach in new jersey is this. i am as tough as a republican as anybody's going to want to find, i suspect. but when democrats do things right, you've got to give them credit. we've got to work together. we can't have a system here in new jersey like we have in washington where everybody's just yelling and screaming, taking their positions and putting out press releases and

not getting anything done. we're getting things started here and we're going to work together. >> all right. we need to go to break, and we're going to have the governor here a bit longer. if you can't stay with us, governor -- >> is that okay, chris? >> i'm new jersey, baby, i'm fine. still ahead on this special edition of "morning joe," we're going to bring governor jack markell of delaware, and dannel malloy. up next, newark's school superintendent camie anderson. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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with my whole heart support our new superintendent camie anderson. she has and will continue to take bold and courageous common

sense steps to transform our system to that end. these steps won't be easy, but change never is. i want to be frank, it is appalling to me that when superintendent anderson comes out with bold common sense plans that some people won't even take time to listen to hear what they are. they put politics ahead of personalities and politics ahead of children and our families. we must do better than this for our kids. they deserve better from us as leaders. >> all right. that was mayor booker yesterday praising the school superintendent. here with us now ft. lee public school's superintendent and newark's school superintendent camie anderson. it's really good to be getting to know you all and the challenges you face, as well. i was told to save this for the end. >> what's that? >> can i see your socks?

what happened? >> oh, my goodness. >> there's no more waiting for superman. he's here. >> oh, there we go. >> that was worth starting with. >> a big difference in the school districts. obviously she has one of the most challenging in the state. >> i just mentioned beringer high school, difficult. what have you been able to do since you got into newark to change things if you have? >> it's great being in a high school. it gives me energy to persevere and remember why we're here, which is for students. that's a great thing. so places like beringer, i mean first and foremost, it's about people, right? need an awesome principal, clear vision, clear goals, bold action, and the right people that are hired through mission-driven processes and safe buildings that feel purposeful where there's a sense of urgency.

and that can be done and it's being done all over the country. and if it can be done anywhere, it should be done everywhere. and that's our singular mission in newark. >> and you've turned things around here. how have you done it? >> well, i've got to say it openly and honestly, we've got a tremendous staff. as we said it before, before the break, the majority of teachers are tremendous. and we're very, very lucky. >> what was it like getting to that point, though? you keep talking about them and it seems like a little bit of sugar coating. and it couldn't have been that easy. >> no, it definitely wasn't. but it's a change of culture and it's a change of supporting only the super stars and the rock star teachers. and instead of spending our time, the majority of our time in that 5% that are the problems, spend your time supporting that 95%. and that's what we did. yeah, you know, i stopped wasting my time with people that you know you couldn't change, they're just not going to grow. and spent that time really working hard for the good ones. >> i'm wondering, though, how you survived that too, as well.

because isn't there the risk? we look at michelle rhee's story of many different levels. and you can get swallowed up by the anger and the bitterness in the system and also all the different details that come into play and arguments as to what should be a priority. >> everybody has their own opinion. it's kind of like when i was a little league umpire, everybody knew the rules so they all shouted at you because they played little league. >> everybody knows how a school should be run. at the grocery store -- >> i was interested in talking to you about your experience as a teacher formed the way you are as a superintendent. tell us about what you saw as a young, ambitious teacher. >> i never wanted to be a superintendent of schools, i wanted to be a teacher and a coach. and you know, i stayed late, i came in early, i worked hard for kids, i did a lot of extra things and i would have people knocking on my door. you can't do that. you're making us all look bad.

no, you're not allowed to bring those kids in the morning. why? i'm here doing my lesson plans, why can't they come in and use the computer in the morning? no, you don't go on contract until 8:05. i have no tolerance for that nonsense. i quickly was ostracized. thankfully i don't need them. okay. i need my kids. and don't ask me where that comes from, but throw a brick at me, i take it, i build an empire instead of cowering underneath it. and that's what i said. i said so my goal was, okay, i'm going to become the principal and i'm going to fix it. and enrolled in two masters degrees program at the same time while coaching varsity football, varsity track, officiating, everything i had to do. and then i became the principal. and i had some bozo on top of me making decisions that trumped the good decisions. >> he's soft spoken just like you, governor. >> i know. don't hold back. >> so governor, let me ask you this question. you're governor of the state of new jersey. you're spending more money per student than anybody else in

america. you're actually going to spend even more money this next year than new jersey ever has per student. when you're trying to figure out how to improve schools in your state, where do you start? do you look at a map? do you look at the grades coming out of individual -- how do you do it? >> i think first you look at the places where there are the biggest challenges. you know, we have hundreds of school districts in new jersey that are doing fabulously well at turning out really great students that are career ready or college ready. and even in our challenge districts we have challenges to talk about. it's opposite the way the superintendent has to deal with the teachers in his particular district or principals. because for me, if i'm looking at the entire state and i say where do i want to focus my attention? >> you've got to go to the trouble spots. >> and bring good people. that's why we recruited camie to come from new york and take over

the newark school system. you have to get real leaders. and you know this, that any problem that we have in our society cannot be solved without real strong leadership. it can't be. and that's why we picked her. >> i'm going to ask you about your greatest success story. but before i do that so far, let's talk about the biggest surprise that you face since becoming governor. and the biggest obstacle and you can't use the word union in your answer. but obviously -- >> no comment then. >> you weren't an educator before you became governor, you were a prosecutor. so you come to this relatively new on the education reform front. what has surprised you. i'll give you an example so you know what i'm going for. the gates foundation, the gates have invested billions and billions of dollars in trying to reduce class sizes. after that they found out that wasn't the answer. that had no effect in the end it came down to teachers. what's been your biggest

surprise? your biggest epiphany. >> the fact that people have been on auto pilot on this subject. and i mean everybody. the public, herb else. well, we send our kids to school, hope everything goes okay, and even the stuff we know is wrong, we're not willing to step up and challenge people. it's a good and bad thing. we have great respect for teachers and the teaching profession and we give them great deference. and i think as parents we do that, and we try to encourage students. respectfully your teachers -- >> but what idea did you have on education reform that a couple of years later you said, okay, i'm not going to try that again? >> i haven't come up with that yet. you ask me my greatest success, i pray i haven't had my greatest success yet because we haven't done enough, not nearly enough. and i've had a lot of resistance. the last two years have been about fights to try to get people in new jersey awake to the idea that it is immoral to

spend $24,000 per pupil per year in newark and have kids graduate at a stunningly low rate and the ones who graduate needing remedial training to sit in a college classroom. and it should matter to them. because guess what? they're paying for it. because 90% plus comes from the state income tax. we need to care about that for that reason and we need to care about it because these kids in newark, if we write them off and sign them away, they're not going away. >> let's talk about newark. and camie, i want to know what it took to get you to go to newark, new jersey. and a lot of begging. >> a lot of begging. >> and it'll be tough to get an answer out of you because i want to know if it pertains to money. was that a factor? what was it that enticed you? and willie was talking earlier about bringing prestige back to teaching and running schools, which we want. so i'd like to know. what it was that got you to come on over there. >> for me it was 100% the

opportunity to put together all of what i've learned in 20 years of school reform in one city that has been grossly underperforming for too long. i got into this work because i believe passionately that every single student can achieve. i was a teacher that worked my butt off to deliver the results that it sounds like my colleague here did. and i am surprised. my surprise, 20 years in, is that there are still people who think that poverty should determine outcomes. >> but if i could -- >> sure. >> did you feel they valued you? was there a value issue? and either financial offers or some sort of sense that, yes, someone's going to back me on this? >> it was about mission. i believe the governor, the mayor, the commissioner, many members of the council, other elected officials, the philanthropic community, there's a critical mass of folks in newark saying enough. we want to be the city to show demonstrably and put to rest this crazy debate about whether

kids of color or kids of poverty can work at higher levels. >> and you know -- and you know -- >> it's a challenge. >> think about the historic opportunity that a teacher or a superintendent has in newark, new jersey. we bemoan the fact all the time on this show that politics is too divided. well, if you're an educator in new jersey, you have a mayor, you have a governor, you have secretary of education in washington, and you've got a president of the united states that are essentially on the same team. and when you line them up that way, governor, some great things can happen. a democratic mayor, a republican governor, and a democratic president all on the same team on education reform. >> exactly right. >> the school board too. >> and listen, in the end, that's what people want from us. this is not a partisan issue. it shouldn't be. it's about making these things better, better opportunity for

our kids. and don't let her kid you, mika, there was a significant amount of graveling. >> you gave her a significant amount of cash. >> it's jersey, under the table. >> that's good. >> meeting across the river tomorrow. >> nice socks. that's hot. cami anderson, thank you very much. congratulations to both of you. coming up, live from ft. lee high school in new jersey, we're going to speak to randi weingarten, also dr. deborah kenny. plus we'll open up things to the audience and hear their questions for us and the governor. >> do you think gail's here? i hope gail's here to ask her a question. we'll be right back on "morning joe." [ lane ] your anti-wrinkle cream is gone.

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that child grow up strong and secure graced by her challenges but never struggling alone. >> i'm not going to be president. >> welcome back to "morning joe." with me now an alumnus, mr. mayor, good to see you again. you corrected the record. i said ridgewood didn't play ft. lee. >> we played, you beat us pretty bad. >> tell us about that. >> we lost pretty badly. tim mullen, he was excellent. >> you went to this school. >> yes, class of '81. >> you see how it is today. talk to me about the way it's growing. >> it's growing. good schools, good community, and it has grown and we need to reform the systems. tremendous energy, we have a very energetic board, as well, and i'm on the record as saying, look, if you want to guarantee a good, strong community, you need good, strong schools. the reverse of that is you're

going to have a weak community. and we're supportive of the governor, we're supportive of steve and the board. >> biggest, most important change over the last couple of years at ft. lee. what are they doing differently here? >> i think the biggest change is teachers have become a lot more unified, working together, communicating with the district, communicating with the board, communicating with the students. and it's really been a unified effort, which is important. look, referendum was just put forth on behalf of the district that got a lot of support from government. we were proud to be a part of that. >> a pretty good ballplayer in his own right, but just not as good as ridgewood. coming up next, questions on building a stronger school. we will talk to them and governor christie. keep it right here on "morning joe." ♪

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♪ you don't send your children to public schools, you send them to private schools. so i was wondering why you think it's fair to be cutting school funding to public schools. >> what's her name? >> what's her name, guys, real quick because the governor's talking? what is it? gail, talk to gail. >> first off, it's none of your business. i don't ask you where you send your kids to school, don't bother me about where i send mine. i as governor am responsible for every child in this state. and the decisions i make are to try to improve the educational opportunities of every child in this state. so with all due respect, gail, it's none of your business. >> come on! i love it. >> no, no, we're going to take questions from the audience right now. >> you've got to be polite to our audience members. >> reverend al, governor. >> this is jersey. >> governor, we're going to try

this again. >> i know how to handle it. >> all right. be nice, chris. >> you know, i noticed that when you said, governor, you got a big applause line, but a few people grimacing when you said these are my people. >> i'm not going for 100%, joe. >> we're starting here, i'm nervous. chris, be nice. your name, your question. >> my name is also chris, chris. governor, big fan. i have a question for you. my mom is a teacher right up the road right off 17 and she's a drama teacher and communications teacher. and i have a question about merit pay. now she is in a subject where there's no standardized testing. so how do you grade somebody like her where there's no standardized testing? there's no criteria for that? and in her school over 75% of the kids in the school, it's a small school, but they signed up for her elective classes. somebody like that. >> what do you do, governor?

>> here's the way you deal with that. remember that in our teacher evaluation plan that we put forward, only 35% of the way teachers judged is going to be based on test scores, the other 65% are based on subjective measures, like how the kids grade out in her classes. peer review by both teachers and administrators who come in and watch her teach and evaluate her. so this whole idea that, you know, folks are thinking that we're going to just grade people on standardized tests, grade teachers on standardized tests, it's 35% of the overall valuation. it should be a part of it, but it shouldn't be the dominant part of it because it's an art and science and we have to respect both sides of that. your mom who is a drama communications teacher, the bulk because she doesn't have a testing element to it, she's going to be judged by her peers in the school and teachers and administrators and how children respond grade wise in her class. >> willie geist. >> governor christie, question for you from samantha. she's a sophomore here at ft.

lee high school. >> does the student's opinion matter? because we're the ones that experience it firsthand. >> well, listen, i think your opinion matters. and, now, if you think -- if you're asking me is, it going to matter in terms of the way the teachers get paid. no, it's not. but it matters because you're going to be giving voice to your parents, to the other folks who are going to be in the school, your principals and others in terms of what you like what's going on in the classroom. so you're going to have a role to play, but not a formal role at least in my process in terms of filling out evaluations on your teachers. but you are going to have a role and always will have a role in how you perform in the class, how you respond to the teacher, and how you let the adults in your life, your parents and the people at school know about how you think you're being taught. that's going to be a very important role for you to be vocal about. >> all right. the next question for our panel right here. your name. >> i run an education reform news service. for michelle rhee, a lot of

teacher evaluation plans have been passing around the country including new jersey in just the last couple of weeks. the states of washington, colorado and new york, legislators have enacted new evaluation laws. the question is, how do we know this will lead to any dmis sales? you could have new plans where data's collected, where teachers are rated according to certain categories, all of this kind of becomes a process and yet if the culture is still one of essentially a collective sense of protecting each other because we're all in this together in a monopoly system, how does that lead to actual dismissals? >> so, i think this is an incredibly important question. and we have to look at both sides of the spectrum. first of all, is the evaluation system differentiating so that our top performers are being recognized and rewarded for the work they're doing? and that we're also identifying ineffective teachers and what happens with them. i've been in so many discussions across this country over the last few months with legislators

who are saying, well, so if someone is evaluated as ineffective. what should we do with them? and there are all of these conversations about, well, we should give them three years or four years to improve their practice. and i say, wait a second, when i ran the d.c. school system, what i said was if we knowingly put an ineffective teacher in a classroom again the following year. if i'm going to make that policy decision as a superintendent, then i have to be willing to -- or comfortable knowing that one of my kids who i send to the public schools might actually get that teacher that year. there's no way i would ever do that as a parent. i would never let my kid go into a classroom of an ineffective teacher. if i'm not willing to make that decision for my own child, i'm not willing to make it for any other parent anywhere in this district and that's the way we have to look at these things. >> willie geist has a question out front. >> michelle, another question for you. jeff from clifton, new jersey. >> yes, in new jersey, teachers unions collect well over $100

million and unfortunately a significant amount of that goes to disparage governor christie. is there a way we can institute a program that would allow the teachers to decide who their money goes to support? >> yeah, you know, i talk to a lot of teachers every day who don't like the idea. between the two national teachers union a year, about $500 million is spent on political activities. think about what that could do for teachers in the classroom in terms of buying them supplies and raising their pay, et cetera, providing them with better professional development. so i think that if the union focuses less on how are we going to disparage people like chris christie who are trying to unlock a difficult situation and instead focus on how can we bring more resources to our teachers in the classrooms, we'd

be better off. >> $731 a year is collected from every teacher in new jersey in dues. and we have 120,000 or so public school teachers, plus another 40,000 public school employees who pay. over $100 million a year every year, not a nickel goes to teacher salary, teacher pension, or teacher benefits, that all has to be paid by the taxpayer. and they spend it on anything they feel like spending it on. sometimes it's attacking folks like me, other activities they want, they pay their director $350,000 a year. this is stuff that teachers, hard-working teachers should not have to pay for. but yet in new jersey, we have mandatory laws passed by the legislature who has been in the pocket of this union for decades that say how about this? if you don't want to be in the union, you don't have to be, but if you opt out, you pay 85% of the dues to be out. for people of my generation, that's like the hotel california, you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

never leave. that's what it's like to be in a union in this state. >> so 15-year-old adrian, who constantly plays with her hair, like my daughter, stop it, amelia, has a question for the governor. >> his, chris christie, it's a pleasure to meet you. recently you passed an anti-blaeing law, which i really am appreciative for, because bullying should not be allowed in the state of new jersey, so i really thank you for that. however, one of the main reasons why kids even do get bullied in school is whether or not they're homosexual. and recently there has been a bill to allow gay rights in the state of new jersey. can you tell me why you -- what was your decision to veto the bill, because i've heard that you did veto the bill. >> i did veto a bill on gay marriage, not on gay rights, and gay rights are protected and protected aggressively in new jersey. but, listen, this is something i feel strongly about. i think marriage is between one man and one woman. but i also know that people have very different opinions about

that in our state. so i've said to folks after vetoing the bill, let's put it on the ballot. if the majority of people in new jersey want to have same-sex marriage, then vote for it and then i'll be governed by it. but that's a major change in the way we've governed our society and i'm willing to be governor, even though i feel one way about it, i'm willing to be governed by the will of the people of new jersey. if the legislature is willing to put it on the ballot this the fall, whatever the result is, i'll be governed by it. >> good question. good question. >> you know, al, you've been fighting for educational reform over the past several years. you and newt gingrich worked with the president, worked with some republicans, some democrats to push forward. what have you learned over the past two or three years that has really enlightened you on what we need to do moving forward? >> well, i think that the one

thing we've learned is that this is the one issue where americans can come together. newt gingrich and i didn't agree on the day of the week we wanted to roll, but we said that the system needs to work for the kids. i don't agree with governor christie on a lot. i mean, we won't even agree we were here this morning. i don't agree with him on gay marriage, i don't agree with him on unions. but we both agree at the end of the day, if the students are not learning more, then it doesn't work. so he gave credit today to the president. we'll argue outside. but i think in here, we've got to create a common where the children, the students see that leaders in society can come together on something, and that's the future of the country with education. >> that is great news! >> christie did good. >> thank you. >> thank you, governor. >> we appreciate it. >> thank you very much. still ahead, we've got a lot more our special conversation on education. we'll have randi weingarten here and the harlem village academy ceo, dr. debora kinney.

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♪ every person in this chamber can point to a teacher who changed the trajectory of their lives. >> i believe teachers get into teaching because they want every child to do better. >> we have to educate our way to a better economy. >> teachers who are doing well should be rewarded. >> we're not going to wait around while ineffective teachers remain in those schools. >> we have to make schools the center of communities. >> it's the best way to empower a person's life and to empower our city, is to focus on education.

welcome back to "morning joe." we are live in fort lee high school, in fort lee, new jersey, for a special brewing together edition of "morning joe." and with us, two governors making education their top priority this year. from connecticut, governor dannell malloy, and from governor, governor jack markell. we have jon meacham and harold ford jr. with us as well. >> john markell, obviously chris christie is having problems dealing with unions. you hear from this from a lot of governors, democrat and republican, but you actually have had a very good working relationship with unions in your state and you've been able to strike some pretty good deals and have a great success rate because of it. >> well, we're working hard, and frankly, it started well before i became governor. we went out and went to probably a hundred schools and talked to teachers. and we recognized that the only

chance of success was to create a partnership, not to have this as a wedge issue. so it's a partnership with teachers, with their union, with parents, with the disability community, with the business community. and let's focus on what it's really going to take to help these kids achieve their potential. and so far, we've been working very well together. >> and governor of connecticut has long been one of the better states as far as k-12 education, but a lot of challenges in your state, just like there are across america, and you have engaged school reform as one of your top fights. >> well, you know, connecticut has the largest achievement gap of any of the 50 states and we're with actually losing ground in achievement, not gaining ground. >> explain that, if you will. >> the achievement gap, if you draw a line along income, the difference between folks who are below that line and above that line is 36 points on a test. 36 points. to put it in perspective, our neighbor, massachusetts, it's a 24 points difference. so we're talking about a pretty large differential. and we've also lost ground.

and that's -- listen, it may talk about who we are and what we are. we're a very urban state, but eckn't afford in some of our urban environments to fail or to be failing 40 to 60% of our students, particularly in a small state where, quite frankly, we pailed to grow jobs for a long period of time. i want to grow jobs again. i want to make sure that the workforce is available to do that. >> so what are you doing to erase this great divide? >> well, you know, i introduced on february 8th, 163-page redraft of our educational -- actually, it's an education reform package. and last night, just last night, we tid our first town hall meeting on the subject. i'm going to be in gyms like this and auditoriums roosz the state until the legislature passes a reform package, which really goes at everything, soup to nuts, in education. additional early childhood education dollars, we're going to create 500 additional spots. but we're also going after making sure that the best are attracted to being teachers, and

that they get the best education in our institutions within our state to be the best teachers that they can. we're going to change our rules on how we support teachers. we're going to create a measter teacher program. >> what do you mean by that? how do you reward success in connecticut? >> you know, rewarding success, we really don't have a lot of levers to actually reward people above their standard pay and so we want to create a whole new class of teachers, which would be master teachers. not simply masters degrees, but people who have proven in the classroom, and have the appropriate education, to go along with it, that these really exemplary teachers. and they should be recognized as such. you know, a lot of the debate is now around the issue of evaluation. we actually entered into an agreement with the two teachers' unions active in our state, what an evaluation platform would look like. we actually had a vote, they voted for it, and now i want to

take that agreement and put it into place. and the idea that we would e. just young teachers before they get tenure makes no sense at all. we have people who are going to teach for 38 years. we should evaluate everybody, every day. >> this issue, obviously, is so important to our show. we have a certain commitment to it, when we asked both of your governors to be on, you changed your schedules and made it happen. harold ford jr., what jack more ke markel has done is brought the dropout rate, which is a huge issue when we deal with the situation per training to education across the country, to its lowest rate in 30 years. we could talk about this issue in each state and its specific needs for well beyond three hours and still not be done. >> no doubt about it. i love the way he's given credit to others. understand, this is a continuum that has to persist. one question i have for the governor. there's been ideas about how to reduce the dropout rate, perhaps

tying driver's licenses to graduation. the president has created this reward for success model, that joe was asking the governor, what more can be done to reward teachers and schools that actually succeed? should there be more financial incentives, even for parents, for keeping kids in school? for helping kids graduate? and how would you feel about tying the the driver's license for 16, 17, 18-year-olds to graduating from high school? if you don't graduate, you lose your license. >> first of all, i think money is a part of it, but money's not everything. when we went to washington, d.c. to interview for our race to the top competition, we came first in the country. >> with tennessee. >> important to point out. >> we think biden had something to do with that. >> he pulled strings. >> the president of our teacher's union said at that meeting that the combination is the linchpin of our educational efforts. that's a big thing for her to say. the money matters, but what also matters is the kind of

environment they have in the school. do they have principals who are listening to them? it's also recognizing that education doesn't begin on your first day of kindergarten, it doesn't end the day you walk off the stage. one of the things i'm most excited about, is we're going to take from 20% to 80% over the next four years, the percentage of poor kids in delaware, who are enrolled in high-quality preschool education. that is a game changer. because when you made a kid who's 5 years old, who already has a year or two deficit in their vocabulary, who's already a year or two behind other kids, it's a tragedy. and the research shows the most effective academic development investment that a state can make is in early childhood development. >> jon meacham? >> governors, one of the most unglamorous but important piece of work that's unfolding is the work on the common core standards, going into effect in 2014, really the most serious academic achievement advancement work that's happened. 46 states, i think, have signed on. can you all explain what you all

are doing and what that program is? >> sure. we -- i actually led the common core effort with former governor sunny perdue of georgia. and the idea here is to have higher, fewer, and clearer standards. there's no reason it should be different in terms of one state to the next in terms of what it is a kid should know. every teacher is a professional, they might have their own way of teaching it, but we should have very clear expectations of our kids, and they have to be much higher expectations than we've had before. because the worldwide job market for these kids has changed so dramatically, they're not competing just with other kids in their region. >> listen, we've adopted the the common core, but let's be clear about what we're talking about. we're making sure that everyone has the right subject matter. but it really is about teaching. it's about what happens in buildings, in schools, in classrooms, how the faculty is teaching the subject, how the administration is administering the school. so it's a step, but it's not an end. but i absolutely agree that this is an important step, so that we

know on a 50-state basis, ultimately, that everyone has the potential to learn the same things. now, whether they learn them depends on what happens in the classroom. i do want to touch on this license thing. most urban kids don't get licenses. that's just a reality. so what you're talking about is linking something that may not be particularly applicable in bridgeport or new haven, connecticut, as it might be in a simsbu simsbury, and those are very different communities. >> governor, let me ask you about, we're talking about common core standards. we're going to have deborah kenny coming in a little bit, and she always talks about, and researchers talk about, the harlem/scarsdale divide. let's talk about your state, and the divide, let's say, bridgeport and fairfield. close to each other, but two completely different worlds. how -- let's talk about some of the ways that you're attacking that. how you narrow that divide.

>> in my opinion, the biggest problem in education in america today is not whether we know with works or doesn't work. we actually know what works. we have the models. we just don't replicate them. either we're unwilling to spend the money to replicate them or -- >> what works? >> well, listen, there are public school models in connecticut, charter schools or public schools? that's a great model in connecticut. there are magnet schools and interdistrict/intradistrict that are absolutely getting the job done. one of those are in stanford, not so far from here, at westover, or the international school at rogers in stanford, connecticut. every one of our towns has a school that's working, but then we don't replicate that model. what really happens is we run most of our schools within a box, standard procedures that have existed in this country for basically 100 years. and then we try a couple of experiments. and we find out that the experiments work, we just don't replicate them. so we have to get out of this comfort zone, get out of this box, get out of thinking about

education the way we've always thought about it. we know longer days work. we know longer school years work. we know better summer instruction works. we know that children in urban environments lose more over the summer than kids in non-urban environments. coming to kindergarten prepared to learn is a 34-year-old national standard. every child should come, ready to learn. but many of our children, particularly in urban environments, don't come ready to learn, because they been denied to access to a pre-kindergarten experience, which just about every middle class parent is able to link their child to. >> you know, when you listen to these guys, in the trenches, really, of what we're trying to do here, and then you cut to washington, and olympia snowe leaving, birth control, it's frustrating. it really is. because there's so much to be done. >> there's a huge disconnect here. >> should there be a national standard, then, around early -- i think there should. should there be a national standard for early childhood and pre-education, and the money be

put there, much like a title 1 overlay, only on early childhood to ensure there's the money. >> i think in terms of expectations, yes. i think in terms of how it's delivered, i think the people who are closest to the kids generally know what's best for their best interests. when you talk about in the trenches, just last week i sat in with our 19 superintendents. we finally have in delaware an assessment that allows us to track what kind of progress kids are making through the beginning of the year through the middle, to the end of the year. and the power of data is incredible. and to see these superintendents looking at the data for their districts, and what we call our performance reviews, where they're drilling down. and when they see, you know, how certain kids are doing compared to others, how certain schools are doing, and they can say, look, we made this change here. that's why we're making progress. but, clearly, we've got to do better in third to fifth grade reading. and they sit with another superintendent who's already doing really well there. and i think to governor malloy's point, this idea of knowing

exactly what's going on and making sure that the data transfers down to the classroom, down to the teacher, and that's what these teachers want too. we've created in delaware these professional learning communities, where teachers sit three times a month, 90 minutes, with five other teachers. and they are drilling into what the data is telling them and how they ought to change what they're doing in the classroom. >> the "moneyball" approach. >> exactly. >> let me just say about this issue about pre-k. we need to spend more money making sure that every child has access. i'm not advocating that we add a year on to kindergarten, but we cannot deny access based on how well someone's parents are doing. so it's a very different system we need to create on a national basis, and it's not replication of kindergarten, but it is to say that if we want to close the the gap at the end of 13 years of education, we have to close the gap at the beginning of that education. i'll go a step further. i think making sure that every 4-year-old has a seat somewhere is as important as making every 12th grader come back to school

to take one or two courses, because that's what they're doing on average in the united states, to qualify for graduation. >> and it's cheaper on the front end. >> it is cheaper. >> john? >> governor malloy, given that this is a moral issue, but it's also an economic competitiveness issue, what is business in connecticut doing to reach out to help you all? is there a partnership between public and private to make the right reforms? >> well, for years, they sent warning signs. they left. and no one was reading that. >> yeah. >> you know -- >> pretty clear. >> i did an 80-stop jobs tour, where leading up to a special session, where we passed a very robust jobs program on a bipartisan basis in a single day. but it took months of work. i did 80 of those stops. it was maddening to hear how many jobs were available that couldn't be filled, because we had done a bad job training people to take those jobs. in this jobs bill, what we did is we said, hey, you hire somebody, we'll give you $500 to

$900 a month for you to hire that person, because we realize as a state, we didn't prepare your workforce. so now you have to prepare them, we'll subsidize that, because we've got to catch up in educati education. we've got to close this gap across the board. and listen, it's everywhere. we don't have enough actuaries for our insurance industry, we don't have enough precision manufacturing, we see machinists aging out of presentation manufacturing and we haven't replaced that workforce. we had a wonderful program at one of our community colleges, we have 12 community colleges. this program in presentation manufacturing had a 100 -- what, 98 to 100% fill rate and it existed for 12 years. and yet had never been replicated at any one of the other 11 community colleges. we're spreading that to three other community colleges and three of our technical high schools. >> how many of those people find jobs, governor. >> in that program, anywhere from 98% to 100%. but by the way, if we don't produce them, those companies will leave. we have -- >> they'll go overseas.

>> we have 80 aerospace businesses in the state of connecticut employing 40,000 people, right? but those numbers have gone down, not up. not because we're not capable of producing great products, we are. but if we don't produce a great work product or the people to come into those operations, then we're going to lose them. and lose them on a national basis. >> this program is so critical with business, and getting back to the dropout question, one of the most important things why people drop out of school is because they think what they're learning is not relevant to what they're going to do for the rest of the their lives. and when we have these businesses partner with our educators, it's very, very partner. >> governor jack markell and governor dannell malloy, thank you very much. >> willie geist, what is coming up next? >> mika, i think we've got a pretty good debate coming up here with two of our good friends, randi weingarten and deborah kenny from harlem village academy. coming up next, a debate on education. but first, bill karins back across the river in new york

with a look at the forecast. >> good morning to everyone out there, including everyone in new jersey. we are watching a serious situation that will develop later this afternoon. we have just been upgraded to a very rare high risk of tornadoes in areas of kentucky and areas of northern tennessee and southern portions of indiana. it's that area of white that has changed. severe weather, widespread from the area of red, widespread in the area of white, possibility of even some devastating, very strong tornadoes. that includes louisville, bowling green, lexington, and nashville. major cities to keep an eye uon. the timing of these storms right around the dinner hour. we've had a lot of large hail reported by st. louis. 2-inch hail reported covering the ground in some areas, but the tornado will be the big threat later on today. they'll start around 2:00 or 3:00 this afternoon and move into those big populated areas of connecticut and tennessee as we go throughout the early evening. by tomorrow morning, those storms will be existing the east coast. once again, a major tornado outbreak is expected in tennessee and kentucky later on

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we have failed too many of our kids for too long. even after nearly two decades of a state takeover, we have not shown anywhere near the kind of transformation our kids need and our parents demand.

it is time for a new era in our city. it's time for a new era of accountability. we will no longer accept failing schools, schools that fail to serve the genius of our city. whether they are charter schools or district schools, changes must be made. but expanding the school day is good for our kids and we're doing it. insisting that failing schools be replaced with higher-performing schools shouldn't be controversial, it is common sense. >> that was newark mayor corey booker in his state of the city address. with us now, the president of the american federation of teachers, randi weingarten. we also have the founder and chief executive officer of the harlem village academies, dr. debora kinney. she's the author of the upcoming book, "born to rise: a story of teachers reaching their highest potential." and with us fourth grade math

teacher at mckinley elementary school in new jersey, jose f fuent fuentes. you've been speaking with jose about some of the challenges teachers face. we've been talking to politicians, we've been talking to a lot of people. it's important to talk to teachers. >> jose graduated from columbia university, one of the finest schools in this country. i assume you could get almost any job you want. you teach fourth grade math. what do you get paid each year? >> around $50,000. >> and how many pay raises have you got since you began teaching? >> two, i began teaching in 2006. >> and there's a pay freeze on your salary? >> yes. >> and what do you take home each week? >> a lot of time, students come without materials. i say, do it now, and they'll say, i don't have a pencil. here you go, week after week, buying pencils, notebooks, materials that kids need. and the school orders these supplies, but they run out by november, you know, so you need

to continue the year, and sometimes parents don't realize like little things like a pencil only last so much. so that adds up. >> jose, what were your greatest challenges as a teacher? >> one of the challenges that i face is trying to find creative ways to involve parents, more in their children's education. we do math nights, we do literacy nights for parents. and we find it challenging to get the parents into the school. >> yeah. >> and for the resources that you need, if you're giving up parts of your salary and your salary isn't growing, do you have, when you come to the table, an attitude to forge ahead? or are there some areas where it's a little tough? and when you hear this debate going on, the debate we're about to have. >> it is tough. and i think that beyond everything, i think that i need to maintain a mind-set of, it's not the kids' fault, so i can't bear it on them, for what's happening in their personal

lives or within politics. so i have to find ways of providing those resources to them. either through donations, either through donors choose, adoptaclassroom.com, all those things. so you find those resources, but it is difficult. >> how many students do you have? >> i'm currently teaching fourth grade math, so i see 67 students. >> so, randi, you've got teachers on the front line. here you have a columbia graduate, pay freeze for three years, despite the fact that he works in the state that spends more money per pupil on education than anybody else. it just seems like the same things that we've been talking about for three or four years, we continue to talk about today. how do we turn the corner on education reform? >> so, there's about five things you have to do at the same time. the governors that were here -- first off, can we give props to this teacher. >> exactly. >> can we just give props. >> i'm wondering if you can pay

him more. >> he says, thank you for the props, i want more money. >> what we did in new york city when there was money is we actually increased the salaries significantly, and that's the one thing that mike bloomberg and we did together to try to lift the salary so that it was a decent middle class income. but you have to do a lot more than that. the -- you have to do, i think, five things at the same time. everybody talked beforehand about engagement of kids. engagement of kids is huge. we have to love kids. but we also have to give teachers the tools and conditions they need to do their jobs. the last panel, governor malloy, governor markell talked about common core. that's a very important, rich curriculum. i believe you're doing common core in your school as well, correct? >> we're working towards it. >> teachers need the time to work together, to get that done, that takes resources. >> we need to build the capacity of our works for.

it's not about plopping somebody in and saying, okay, you're good, you're bad. i would take all those good teachers that governor christie was talking about, have them mentor other teachers. pay them more for mentoring other teachers. that's the kind of thing that helps lift the profession. last thing is that you've got to have a collaborative environment and you actually do have to, not say poverty is an excuse, but we have to the try to trump it. so if kids come in hungry, we have to feed them. if kids come in without being able to read the board, we have to be able to get them glasses. >> deborah, how do we turn the corner on education reform? i've got to say this morning, actually, i've heard a lot of positive things. i've heard democrat thes and republicans, progressives and conservatives agreeing a lot more on core issues than they did three or four years ago, when we began this. what are you seeing on the front lines? >> well, first of all, i think it's easier to talk about it than to actually do it. and i can't believe i'm about to say this, but i actually agree

with everybody that you just said. >> see! you just proved my point! okay, everybody, thank you! good night. thank you for coming. let's go. it's time to go. >> there's a caveat. >> oh, okay. >> there's always a caveat. >> oh, deborah. >> the underlying condition that's going to allow all of these things to happen is when we finally realize that you have to empower teachers and the only way that you can empower teachers is by having real, authentic accountability. and so the conditions that will allow all of these things to flourish, collaboration and respecting teachers more and everything that you talked about will never be allowed to happen, unless we have true accountability and true empowerment. and that is what's being blocked. without that, it's just a lot of talk. >> so, deborah, i'm going to ask you this first and then i'm going to go to randi, because this is really the $64,000 question. the one thing we've learned over the past five years is, at the end of the day, it comes down to

great teachers on the front line. not class size, not -- youkil c list a thousand things. it's great teachers on the front line. so let me ask you first, how do you grade the teachers? how do you measure success in a classroom, in a fair way, for teachers whether they're working in newark or whether they're working in bergen county? >> well, first of all, the most important things can't be measured, objectively. is this child compassionate? with is this child thinking at a high level, reflected, the only way you can really look at that, is reflected in he or she speaks and writes. these kind of things cannot be measured by a standardized test. and therefore, what you really need to do is empower principals to build their team, nurture their team, evaluate their team, hold their team accountable, like you to in any other enterprise, whether it's a football team or a business. the leader has to lead.

so right now we have a set of rules that do not allow our leaders to lead, block them from leading. they can't evaluate their own people, they can't pick their own people. >> so give the coach the power. randi, you've been talking, we've been talking three or four years, on and off camera, and you've been talking about what you guys are trying to do for teacher standards. are you making progress? are you getting closer to an overall system that you can implement nationwide? >> when in the places where you don't hear the pitch battle, that's where we're making progress. in the places where you hear the pitch battle and the finger-pointi finger-pointing, that's where we're not making progress. i want to just throw one stat out, that you and i talked about, we talked about during the, you know, when everything was going on in wisconsin and ohio. income inequality. from '73 to 2000, the union

density in this country, private sector, went from 34% to 8%. at the same exact time, income inequality grew by 40%. the newest stats that we've seen have shown that the real achievement gap is rich and poor. 40% achievement gap in the last 20 years. now, so the issue becomes, i'm totally in on accountability. it has to be focused on quality and focused on fairness. and the places that we're doing that are -- we were just talking earlier about lowell, massachusetts, because i'm thinking about not school change, but whole district change. because in terms of public education, and this fort lee high school is a public school. and it's -- in terms of public education, our job is to educate all kids. >> okay, but randi, again, i go back to the question. you've been telling me for three years, four years that you guys are aggressively working on a way to evaluate -- you basically say, you want teachers evaluated, we're working on it.

we're moving forward. and so i'm asking you, are you any closer to national standards? >> look at the places that i would look at in terms of really whole school and whole district change, look at new haven, look at lowell, massachusetts, look at baltimore, maryland. look at abc school district in l.a. now, the stuff that's happened in her budget has actually hurt. where i disagree with you is that really good teachers will tell you they need lower class size so they can differentiate instruction. >> by the way, i don't have any information other than what the gates foundation has been studying. i'm just saying -- >> i mean, i had, as a high school teacher, i had 150, 160 kids. >> let me say, as a parent, i want 20 kids in my class and not 40 kids in my class. i'm only repeating that because at the end of the day, it does come down to the people you represent, it comes down to the teachers on the front line. >> at last flexibility you have to have in a school.

small class size matters a lot more in reading than in another subject. if you're given the freedom and flexibility to run the school the way you want, which is how all schools should run, but to me the way you change the whole country is by operating each school in the way that best everybodies the teachers. because if you best serve the teachers, you will best serve the kids. and to me, the way to best serve a teacher is to respect them and give them full empowerment. and you can only do that if you also hold them fully accountable. >> i'm going to worry in the process, we're going to lose teachers. >> that's right. >> $50,000 a year, 67 students, a smaller class would help? >> i agree with you in terms of a smaller classes would help, but i think that i need the support. i think if someone's coming in and giving me meaningful feedback and providing me -- >> and i'll say it, you need a higher salary. you need to be valued. >> one other thing this morning that doesn't occur in the larger

arena around us is we've got to get rid of the demonization aspect of -- demonizing teachers, demonizing the union, that's no way to get progress. >> let's do this, randi and deborah, i would love for you guys to come on "morning joe" next week, the week after, and let's just set aside 40 minutes and have a long conversation. you two have already started to agree with each other. >> i love it. >> i think it will be fun. >> looks like we're doing it. >> randi weingarten, dr. deborah kenny, and jose, thank you so much! a big hand for jose, everybody. coming up, president obama sits down with a sports guy. bill simmons of espn, going on the record about the pressure of throwing out the first pitch. we'll be right back on "morning joe," live from fort lee high school in new jersey. the employee of the month is...

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welcome back to fort lee high school here in fort lee, new jersey. president obama yesterday took a little break from election year politics, sat down at the white

house with espn's sports guy, bill simmons. >> that's big! >> great. >> that's huge. >> i love simmons. >> in the interview, the president appears to take a little bit of credit for the linsanity and they also talk about the chicago bulls. >> over the last five years, how many times have you envisioned welcoming the world champion chicago bulls to the white house? >> every year. and it hasn't happened yet. but it will happen. >> it will happen? you're guaranteeing it? like joe namath? >> well, i've got another five years here. >> you're guaranteeing that too? >> somewhere along the line, my bulls are going to come through here. absolutely. i knew about jeremy before you did, or everybody else did, and arne duncan, my secretary of education, was captain of the harvard team. i've been on the jeremy lin bandwagon -- >> are you taking credit for linsanity? it kind of feels like you are a little bit. >> i can't take credit for it, i'm just saying, i was there

early. >> are you taking credit for linsanity? it's a little bit. now, also, the subject of presidential first pitches came up. >> oh, that's tough. >> remember in 2009 at the all-star game in st. louis, president obama came out to throw the first pitch. he's got the sox thing on. not terrible. he got it there. he got it there. >> it's nerve-racking! >> here's president obama talking to simmons about how tough it is to throw out that first pitch. >> stop it right now. >> you're throwing the first pitch in front of like 60,000 people, obviously wearing a big bulletproof vest under your -- >> i always give credit when i think about george bush and the pitch he threw right after 9/11. unbelievable pitch, right down the middle. huge credit for that. >> president giving credit to president bush for this pitch in 2001. remember the world series. yankee stadium, right after

9/11, walks out there with the flak jacket underneath. >> look at that. right over! right over the plate? >> throws a dart down the middle. some common ground for president obama and president bush. >> look at that, look at that, just casual. and i remember he takes the elbow back. for the president, back here, take it back, and then just follow through. just like -- not like -- you've got to step back -- >> okay, enough. thanks. >> bill simmons, a sports guy. and how great for the president to sit down with bill simmons, a sports guy. >> if you watch it, espn.com, about 25 minutes with the president. >> we'll be right back here with "morning joe" from fort lee high school, new jersey. melissa harris-perry! >> good to see you! >> how are you doing? i love that my daughter's part fish.

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and a rich dark chocolate flavor. plus, 10 grams of great tasting protein in every bar. so it's energy straight from nature to you. new nature valley protein bars. find them in the granola bar aisle. welcome back to a special edition of "morning joe." we are brewing together with starbucks at fort lee high school in fort lee, new jersey. with us now, professor of political science at tulane university, columnist for the nation magazine, and host of her own show on msnbc, saturday and sunday mornings, melissa harris-perry. you work seven days a week now. >> apparently. >> also, we have elaine wynn, very good to have you on board

this morning. >> thank you for including me. >> and the anchor of telemundo's nightly news. >> elaine, you've obviously aggressively been working on several education reform efforts. and they working. tell us about your greatest success. >> well, i think my greatest success, and i can't claim it as my greatest success, but first, let me just say, in watching the show today, and hearing about all the traditional things and elements that people consider our part of education reform, i think the american people realize that there is no silver bullet, and that we're not going to find one thing that's going to be the cure-all, which is why i'm happy to be here for good news bears, communities, and schools. which is an organization that deals with a situation of traditionally as education reform. and that is coordinating a lot of services that exist in individual communities and bringing them to school sites

and delivering them to the children who need them most. so that all of these wonderful teachers are free to teach. and all of the governors are free to deal with raising money and resources for traditional education. most people that live in cities want to take responsibility for their schools, and they're very frustrated. because they're not sure how to do it. communities and schools in terms of being scaleable is in 25 states in america, in the d.c. we serve over 1.2 million children. we are in 3,000 schools and we partner with those schools by putting caring adults there who are counselors and coordinate all these marvelous services that exist in a community that can provide food, clothing, medical assistance. all the things that distract teachers and lay educators from having success in their school. >> melissa, we were a talking to jose here earlier, a teacher in

newark, who has to buy pencils for students. >> he makes $50,000 a year, he's got 67 students, and he's buying them school supplies. >> i think, the very first time i joined you all on a set it was in a school gymnasium in the city of new orleans. so we have a bit of a relationship in talking education. but this issue of wraparound services for kids is critical. and i think often in the kind of education reform debate, we hear parents aren't doing enough. it's really the parents' responsibility, or we hear, teachers need to do better. we just need to train these teachers to be better teachers. but the fact is that kids in cities like new orleans, in newark, in d.c., even in rural areas, i think that we often don't think about, because we think about urban problems, but don't think about under-resourced rural areas as well, those kids are coming to school hungry. if you're hungry, it's more difficult to learn math. those kids are facing violence in their communities. if you're distracted by the possibility of being shot on your way home, you can't focus

on taking your schoolbooks with you when you leave the school. so, you know, this notion of education being the totality of young people's lives and the ways in which we have to rethink education, because we can't just say it's just teachers or students. >> and you've got to look at the entire community, jose. we went out to crenshaw. it's something that, of course, starbucks has been concerned about in crenshaw, where you don't just look at the school. you don't look at the failing school in the larger community. as howard schultz always says, you've got to look at the entire community and see how this school functions within a bigger environment. >> first, let me say, this is two joss in a half hour. let's turn the name to "morning jose." >> that's good! >> has a good ring to it. >> but what you are carrying out have never been more important and have never been more effective. i spent last week in linwood, california. and there is such a disconnect sometimes in what the people --

latinos and non-latinos alaike - who are living their daily lives and trying to survive and dealing with home foreclosures and losing their jobs and dealing with children who are getting more involved in local community gangs than in schools. and there's just a disconnect. and parents think, what do i do? how can i get help? who's going to help me? there's fear of even reaching out to institutions like schools, because of a million things. and that's why efforts like what you're doing really makes a difference. because it is larger than just a school. it's the community. >> we're coming up on a hard break, but let me ask you all really quickly, what's the greatest challenge that you face, your organization faces? >> just securing more resources to the reach the other 1.9 million kids who could use this kind of help. >> the greatest challenge? >> dropout rates among the hispanic community the highest, 50,000 latino kids a month in this country. >> melissa, you study it

firsthand in new orleans, post-katrina, where education reform is really on the cutting edge. give us some hope. >> well, the big deficiency continues to be in equity. that there are schools that are performing beautifully for children and schools that are failing kids. they're in the same town, often sitting right next to each other. and we have to address the fact that every 5-year-old, every 10-year-old, every 15-year-old deserves the same quality. >> is it all about this income disparity? >> i mean, income disparity is certainly part of it. part of it is how we choose, relative to real estate and community skls, part of it is how we think about what success in a school is. and our need to think about art and music and not just reading and writing. >> and digital divide. >> there we go. it's convoluted and so huge, huge a problem. we'll continue the conversation. melissa h melissa, jose, elaine. thank you very much. chocolate lemonade ? susie's lemonade... the movie.

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