that's it for us. "hard "ball "hardball" is up next. >> on to illinois. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, bad road trip. mitt romney's forces spended 2dz billion in alabama and mississippi only to lose badly in both states. how can a guy claim to be the people's choice when spending all that money gets you a couple of third place finishes? well the question is, the republican body politic, is it rejecting romney the way the human body rejects a foreign organ? is mitt just too remote, too inauthentic, too phoney for people to accept him as their own. would they rather take a long shot bet on rick santorum a guy who feels like one of them? the real dead ender is newt gingrich who can prove he can

lose in all sections of the country. the cries are growing louder for newt to just get off the -- out of the way. plus, republicans are accused by the enemies of waging a war on women. now mitt romney says he would end all public support for planned parenthood. is he giving his enemies the evidence they want that republicans are women's enemies. and george clooney is here with us to ni. the actor just came back from the border of sudan and south sudan, site of all the killing over there. he's bringing attention to the crisis. and george clooney will be here right here with us on "hard ball." let me finish with the slugfest i've been hoping for for a long time. it's now going to be romney versus santorum, one-on-one with the big bout coming this tuesday in illinois. we begin with santorum's southern sweep. won both of those last night. steve smith ran the mccain-palin campaign in 2008.

steve, we have to start with you, the inside man. what is your feeling about this race? >> well, i think it's become a two-person race, chris. for newt gingrich, he said he was relevant in this race, that he had a southern strategy. you have to win states like mississippi and alabama if you're going to put together a southern strategy. so i think that he's effectively finished as a candidate. and now mitt romney completely lost the inestability argument. now he's in a message campaign that is an ideological contest with a conservative running to his right. and it's got to be a process that continues to go forward because santorum's argument that neither one of us may get enough delegates to win to lock this up and it should get settled at the c convention if that's the case, that got a lot of wind behind it. >> so you think people would like to have this thing go on a bit, even beyond the primaries and caucuses to a real donnie brook down there in tampa? >> well, i think there's a real question about whether either one of them can accumulate the necessary delegates to be

nominated. it's a real open question. so i think that barring the ability to be nominated with the remembering does it number of delegates, it does go to the convention. and so rick santorum said he's not getting out of the race. i think he's got a clear rational to keep going in this race and will have one so long as he keeps winning. this is now become a math contest. but the momentum side of this is on rick santorum's side despite romney's math advantage. >> welled is. listen to what mr. santorum said early better his chance of defeating mitt romneyment l. let's watch. >> if we keep winning races, eventually people are going to figure out that governor romney isn't going to be the nominee. and when you keep getting outspent seven, eight, nine, ten to one and win races, it has to tell you that there is something funneledmentally right with what we're doing and the message we're delivering and something fendmentally flawed about the candidate that we're running

against. you can't look at someone who has that huge money advantage, all the establishment behind him, all the media singing the song that he is the inevitable candidate and we're stloeg plow process down. all classify is out there told to republican voter and yet republican voters are overwhelmingly saying, no. >> so he's the agent of rejection. he's saying i'm in here to do what the body politic and the republican party wants done. somebody thooz do it. chase this guy out. push him out. >> that's what he's saying. you know, he talked about what was flawed in mitt romney. what's flawed is his record, most conservatives or many conservatives believe on abortion, health care. he is -- they think he's wrong. he was wrong and they're now convinced that he now is on the right side of those issues. what's missing is the vision

thing, the -- what does he want to do with the country? what is he really about? what is at the core of romney? and i think people haven't yet gotten that. they haven't figured that out. he doesn't communicate it very well. >> so there you have it, stephen. you're the inside man again. i rely on your knowledge having ran the campaign for john mccain last time so well i think given the odds against him. and here you have a guy that doesn't seem like he belongs. he has problems, as gene said well, it's not a set of flaws, it's his essence and failure to offer up some reason why a smart business type can offer deliverance to the republican party in their souls. can he be a soulful republican to the people who really want a soulful deliverance to get out of this mess? they don't feel happy. republicans are not happy in this country right now. there is something wrong with the way the country is going. what can he offer to solve that problem? mitt romney? >> look, i think at the end of the day, chris, in this process, you're revealed to be who you

are. and he's not a back slapping urban politician, you know, who can go down there and pull off the y'alls and the cheese grits. he's a serious man with a record of accomplishment. and he particularly has a record of accomplishment in making broken things work right. and i think being able to communicate that through the prism of this is how it benefits you the voter in a primary context and then ultimately in a general election context, you know, convincing people he has the core competence to restore prosperity to the country, for instance. i think that he would be a much firmer ground than being in a fight with rick santorum about who's an authentic conservative on the basis of who has what level of support for planned parenthood? i think that is a very tough issue for him. i think it drives -- >> it sounds -- but steve, it sounds colonial. like i'm not one of you people. but i can come in and run your country better than you can.

i know i'm not one of you. but i'm really good at this business sense. you mow? colonial, that was the colonial argument by the way in africa. we're going to come in. we may not belong here. we're not one of you. but we got this economic sense. we're know how to run businesses better. these metaphors never work. >> i think romney does belong to a wing of the republican party that is out of fashion and a lot of them out of the republican party now. but i think the point -- >> you think it's an old republican liberal? >> in some ways, yeah. i think the point steve made is right -- is absolutely right. if that's what he is, he should be that. he should be what he is and not try -- >> but you're laughing. would that sell? >> well, i think it would sell better than cheesy grits. >> but the real mitt romney sell -- >> than what he is selling -- >> you have a candidate like john mccain who is not even real in that direction. mccain is a hybrid between the old east coast moderate republican and the right-wing crazy tea partier. but mitt romney is well beyond

the tea party stage. well distant from it. >> yeah. look, i think that the party has changed a great deal over the last four years. i think that there's a real argument to be made that, you know, mitt romney may be the last person, you know, who's got a fairly moderate record on a number of issues from a state like massachusetts could compete as well as he's competed in the republican primary if the party continues to evolve at the rate it's changed over the last four years. but nevertheless, chris, he does have a substantial lead in the math. the inestability argument is out the window. they didn't want the math argument. but now that they're in it, they're winning that math argument. and so he does have advantages going forward in this contest. but there's no doubt he's going have to fix some rmeelements ofs messaging. >> i imagine that convention. you may not like me but look at my numbers. i have numbers that prove you have to take me. anyway today on fox news, mitt romney was asked in person at live television whether his losses in alabama, mississippi underscore the fact that the

conservatives in the party do not want him to be their nominee. here's how he answered. let's watch. >> well, i'm sorry. they have to go back and look at other states that actually are kind of important. let's say florida, for instance, where i won and michigan and ohio and nevada and new hampshire. the list goes on. last night, by the way, they're forgetting there were a couple other contests including hawaii why i won. and by the way, last night i got more delegates than anybody else. some who are very conservative may not be yet in my camp but they will be whether i become the nominee when i face barack obama. >> i don't get i, gene. he doesn't seem like a guy that has the people's choice. >> that clip reminds me of the clip from "dream girls." you're going to love me. he's telling republicans, i'm staying. i'm staying and you're going to love me. >> is that hudson? >> exactly. >> love me. let me go back to this question. here is -- let's take a look at some of the things going on here. here's richard beason from the

team romney on the mathematical realities. this is what it's come down to. here it is. according to "politco," while rick santorum is taking a victim ray lap after alabama and mississippi, the fact remains that nothing has changed in his chances of getting the republican nomination. tuesday's results actually increased governor romney's delegate lead while his opponents moved closer to the date of mathematical elimination." how does this sound, steve, to hear if you're a voter in illinois this tuesday? you don't really matter because the numbers here say you're finished if you want to vote for santorum? >> well, that's not an argument that is penetrating to voters in states like illinois. you know, that's an argument for the inside washington and the donor community that's funding the campaigns. one of the interesting things, chris, on the republican side, you have rich beason for romney and john yob for santorum. they're hugely respected inside the republican party and they're both making arguments that people find confusing.

they don't know which side to believe. and who is exactly where because we're in unchartered territory with the proportional allocation of the delegates. this is a rule change for the republicans. so we're in a new space with this. so, you know, the one things that clear is that santorum argument that i'm not getting out of the race no matter where the math is on this right now that if i keep winning, i have as good a shot to get this nomination as romney does even if it's decided at the convention. his argument was strengthened last night. romney's argument was weakened last night. >> okay. thank you very much, gene, last word. it looks like it's a two-man race right now. we're not going to be talking bch newt anymore, nor should we. >> yeah. i think newt gingrich is performance goes way down in primaries, even if he stays in the race. and i -- >> he is buddy romer now. >> yeah. >> thank you, steve schmitt. remember buddy romer? he's in the race, he doesn't matter either. steve sh it's great to you have on.

i'm more impressed every time i see that movie. i've seen it three times now. i'm going for the record. coming up, newt gingrich failed to win either alabama or mississippi last night. so why is he still here? what does he plan to do? at least what is his rational for sticking around? we'll hear him out one more time. [ male announcer ] the draw of the past is a powerful thing. but we couldn't simply repeat history. we had to create it. introducing the 2013 lexus gs, with leading-edge safety technology, like available blind spot monitor... [ tires screech ] ...night view... and heads-up display. [ engine revving ] the all-new 2013 lexus gs. there's no going back. monarch of marketing analysis. with the ability to improve roi through seo all by cob.

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welcome back to "hardball." newt gingrich is standing up to increasi increasing pressure to get out of the race. not surprisingly, newt vowed to take the fight to tampa, what else is new, while getting in a dig at romney, of course. here he was speaking to supporters last night. >> i emphasize going to tampa because one of the things tonight proved is that elite media's effort to convince the nation that mitt romney is inevitable just collapsed. the fact is -- the fact is in both states the conservative candidates not nearly 70% of the vote. and if you're the front-runner -- if you're the front-runner and you keep coming in third, you're not much of a front-runner. >> well, i'm not part of the

elite media. i don't think this is over. i'm not want it to be over. i like this fight. what is keeping newt gingrich in the race even in his own mind? is this a campaign trip or ego trip? the great ed rendell and mother jones bureau chief and political analyst of a different type, each having his own area of expertise. the governor, yours is practi l practical. why is this guy in the race? why is newt -- is it just there is nowhere else to go or is it just personal? >> i think it's funny. i think newt craves attention as many of us in politics do. and if you drop out, he's history. if he goes to the convention, people will still listen to him to some degree. and he's got to balance that against his sworn desire to defeat mitt romney. if he really wants to defeat mitt romney, he's got to know in his heart that best way to do that is to get out. >> that's what i say. he has -- there is a different part of you that i want you to respond to. here's what byron york who i

think is smart, he wrote this today. newt gingrich's presidential campaign changed. in the past, the campaign was about winning, or trying to win. or at least claiming to be trying to win. now it's about keeping mitt romney from winning. gingrich no longer says he can capture the 1144 delegates required to wrap up the republican nomination, instead he now speaks about a new plan, keep romney from getting the 1144 delegates by the end of the gop primary season in june and then start what gingrich calls a conversation about who should be the republican nominee. that conversation, his plan goes, would lead to a brokerage gop convention in which gingrich would emerge as the eventual nominee. and here is gingrich referring to that conversation that he wants to begin this summer last night. this delusion continues. let's watch. >> i believe after the primaries are over it will be obvious that the so-called front-runner, in fact, didn't get there. and from that point on we'll be in a whole new conversation. >> your argument is that if he

stays in he divides the anti-romney vote and that is what most rational people think. his is if you divide up the delegates in three ways then nobody will get a majority. romney keeps winning primary after primary. >> the problem is first of all what newt gingrich said there is a solid basis for a mental health commitment, number one. number two, number two, does he possibly think that even let's say romney doesn't get the 1144 that a deadlock convention is going to turn to him? yes, he does. >> he's crazy. >> tell me that scenario. you said delusion. i think that's what he does believe. at that point in time they're going to look around and the guy that got 12% of the votes, where have you been all along? we're so sorry. >> i hate to say this, governor. he's like a good defense attorney. a good defense attorney. one time a kid stole my car in d.c. and got convicted.

young and public defender came up and said in court, do you know a guy named joe to me on the stand. i said i don't know a guy named joe. she could then go back to the car and say joe told me to take the car. that is her way of saying somebody believed somebody did some ridiculous theory of the car being stolen was not this kid stealing the car. doesn't newt need as a defendant have to come up with a delusional theory if you're caught, basically. there is no reason to be in the race. >> sure. i don't believe in his heart of hearts newt gingrich believes that. i think he wants the attention of staying in. everyone listens to him. what about liz speech last nighthe? was talking about all these different issues. he loves having the audience. and that's why he's staying in. he's too smart to believe he has a chance. >> the $2.50 gift, he's like a lot. i don't want to fight with laruche. they will come on television and spend $75,000 to talk for a half hour with a set of books he

wants you to read. something it distract from you the campaign, whether it is jane fond yar. this guy is talking about $2.50 gas. he thinks he can attract our attention with it. >> i think he also worries if he's not elected president, won't have a lunar colony in the next five years. i disagree with the governor. i really think that he believes he is a historic transformational character and that eventually the rest of the world will come to see. that. >> that is called a delusion. >> yes. i believe so. >> he thinks to get in this race, winston churchill coming back after the disaster. and backing the king in the fight. he was coming all the way back. he was the gal coming back from exile. i mean this guy is really -- napoleon right now. last night in an interview rachael madow, john harwood was saying he heard the superpac

money is drying up. let's watch. >> i talked to one of the analysts. you mentioned the superpac donor. i talked to one of his friends last night and he said that i think written his last check. >> we were asked about the superpac's funding. should they stop donating? and tyler said this. governor, you'll love this. fu fund-raising will be challenging. he has one person watching out for him. he is giving this guy tens of millions of dollars. we don't know why. when is adelson going to get a call saying newt is out of this race. you're wasting your money. >> the interesting thing is, chris, if he decides newt is out, who will adelson go to? he says he's going to spend $100 million. will he do it for santorum or he said nice things about romney? who does he go to? >> he's not going to president obama. >> that's for sure. >> does the republican establishment now really want

newt out which will give santorum more -- >> so what? so what? >> whether we talk about sheldon adelson and others, you know, having an impact here, they also -- there are no more debates scheduled. newt gingrich, he can run on fumes. he's going to have to get even more extreme in his rhetoric to get free media attention if he wants to stay in the mix. >> looking at the race next tuesday, how do you see it governor? without this guy we're looking at now having any role up there, i can't see anybody in the suburbs or anybody wasting their vote on this guy. i certainly wouldn't visit. how does the battle look between the two left standing? the more establishment businessman, that's what he is really, romney, or the sort of christian conservative crusader, your guy. you know santorum all your life. what does the race look like? >> illinois is a strange state. paul kirk won a republican primary for senate. but the extreme conservative

candidate won the primary for governor. and, of course that, was the only reason that pat green got re-elected. i think it's going to be a close race. i think in illinois the money could make a difference. you could see romney do what he did in michigan and ohio, sort of a narrow victory. but, chris this is deja vu all over again. remember in march and april and may in 2008, hillary won all the primaries and won some of them by staggeringly large margins. and, yet, obama kept piling up delegates and kept holding the delegate lead. >> but that's a tough shot against obama. obama who i, of course, was supporting on those days, you were supporting hillary, governor. we all know whose side we were on. honestly, i had a spirited campaign behind him, people who really believed in him. before you lodge that unfair metaphor there comparing them, do you really believe there is a similar amount of spirit and excitement behind mitt romney? >> not at all. not at all. but to be very practical and you said i was a practical

politician, the math is the math. and romney won more delegates yesterday. >> you're loving the clintons goes beyond practicality. >> so that will give romney a big advantage. >> can i ask you one last question mr. big stuff? who is going to win i will snil. >> romney will win. >> who is going to win, governor? >> romney by a very narrow margin. >> just to cause trouble, cardinal george out there, the most conservative runner will encourage those to go with the fellow religionist just to cause trouble in my religion. thank you both, governor ed rendell, the practical man and david carr, the idealogue and reporter. up next, david axelrod tweets mitt romney on his big victory yesterday. up next in the side show. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. americans believe they should be in charge of their own future.

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will carden would like to represent his home state. but you have to know the major cities. take a look at this campaign ad highlighting his arizona childhood. >> i'm will cardon, a prove this message. i'm will cardon, i dwru up working in a family business and hard work was the bedrock. >> well, oops. catch that. there in the photo album misspelled tucson. arizona's second largest city. the ad was quickly fixed and replaced with a krktly spelled version of tucson. as ross perot once advised, measure twice, cut once. mitt romney said on a tweet last night hoping for better results in the pacific than he got last night in the south, "will be a late night waiting for results

from american samoa and hawaii. but a big thank you to everyone who voted in mississippi and alabama. well david axel rod of the obama campaign was quick to get in a dig. mitt romney, you know what they say as america samoa goes, so goes the nation. speaking of romney, steve colbert had something to say about strapping the family dog to the roof on a family vacation. >> of course, romney also knows how to make complex subjects simple. watch him punch holes in the president's so-called energy policy. >> look at his energy policy. what is his energy policy? you can't drive a car with a wind mill on it. >> that's right. you can't drive a car with a wind mill on it. because if you put a wind mill on top of your car, then where does the dog go? >> that dog trip is going to be told as long as romney's in public life. time now for tonight's big

number. think progress, the united states army is joining the ranks of advertisers who will be no longer buying time during rush limbaugh's radio program. just how trouble producing were rush's recent marks on washington and sandra fluk? a new bloomberg poll shows that 53% say that rush should are fired for calling her a prostitute and a slut. 56% of women and 30% of republicans agree rush should go for those comments. 53% say rush should go. that is tonight's very big number. up next, republicans are accused by their enemies of waging a war on women so why is mitt romney now saying he's going to get rid of planned parenthood? that's ahead. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. more and more energy. the world needs more energy. where's it going to come from? ♪ that's why right here, in australia, chevron is building one of the biggest natural gas projects in the world. enough power for a city the size of singapore for 50 years. what's it going to do to the planet?

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i'm tile letter mathisen with your cnbc market wrap. the dow gained 16, s&p 500 down one and the nasdaq up one. citigroup, one of the few losers in the financial sector this day, shares slid more than 3% after it failed to so-called stress test by the fed. goldman sachs also shed more than 3% following a scathing op-ed in the "new york times" by a former vice president there. and aaa says gas prices are now above $4 a gallon in four states and in washington, d.c. that's it from cnbc first in business worldwide, now back to "hardball." my test is pretty simple. is the program so critical that it's worth borrowing money from china to pay for it? and that basis being of course you get rid of obama care. there are others, planned

parenthood, i'm going to get rid of that. >> going to get rid of planned parenthood. there was mitt romney in that interview on tuesday afternoon. that is a day ago with a local tv station. the democratic national committee turned it into an attack ad. >> planned parenthood, we have to get rid of that. planned parenthood, going to get rid of that. >> well, that was lethal. funding for planned parenthood is a potent issue at the state level as well. today in texas a republican-backed law that would have essentially shut down planned parenthood was to go into effect. following angry protests in austin and nationwide criticism, texas lawmakers gave an extension to keep treating patients through april 30th. that is another month. have democrats struck political gold by portraying republicans as anti-women? and how will mitt romney fair when he makes his pivot to the

center for the general election? melinda hennenberger is a political columnist and susan paige is a columnist and often sits across the table from me. let's talk about this politics here. look, the prison's taking a hammering over gas prices with men and women. but on these social issues, these issues that women are particularly politically focused on -- although they effect men and women -- he is getting in trouble, mitt romney, susan? >> well, clearly the democrats think this is a great issue for them. it got 115 e-mails to day from democrats saying something about what mitt romney said. if you look at the data in both the gallup poll and the pugh rf research center poll, there is evidence that this cuts with women. we've seen the president's approval rating go up a bit in both polls. but not because of increased support among women. on the other hand, of course, democrats rely on support from

women. there's a big gender gap at the moment. it's to the advantage of democrats who are about 0 points ahead in the pugh poll and obama 20 points ahead among women over romney. that's an advantage democrats certainly want to protect. >> melinda, it's astounding to me after all the talk on television, here especially, about what happened with regard to going after planned patienthood, rugt? >> right. >> and all this talk about rush limbaugh and this talk about the catholic church and the talk about contraception. and all those issues which you would think would put the democrats with an advantage over the conservatives, not a big powerful impact yet in terms of big changing and how people are voting yet. >> i do think that it's a very powerful, good issue for democrats because of it energizes the base, energizes women and they're raising a lot of money on it. i think in the end it is a winner for them. but to quote ann romney, women are concerned about other things besides contraceptives, too. so, you know, i mean a friend of mine who is an independent voter

said, you know, i am worried the top issue on my mind is not who's going to be paying for contraception with my tax dollars. oops, i'm unemployed. i'm not paying taxes. i think it goes back to jobs. it's i thought it was interesting he lost a lot of ground, obama, recently with low income americans. i mean jobs really are the issue. >> when you go to the gas pump, i don't know if i see more men or women pumping gas. it's about the same. really, that's a lot more than contraception. price of gas is $50 to go in and out of the gas station. moveon.org made a national tv ad. they're running hot. let's listen. >> if we're going to pay for your contraseptives and thus pay you to have sex, we want you to poist the videos online so we can all watch. >> a woman impregnated through

rape should accept that horribly created gift, the gift of human life. accept what god has given you and make the best of a bad situation. >> these aren't our words. >> they're all real things said by prominent members of the republican party. >> judging from their comments, the gop must have a serious problem with women. >> well, there you have it. susan, covering politics now and now having it definitely denind that leaders of the republican party prominent leaders include rush limbaugh. he might as well be mitch mcconnell or john boehner the speaker because he's now among their number in terms of influence and prominence. >> well, that's right. democrats -- we hope that's the case. because here's an ad that really goes to energizing the democratic base especially among women raising money, getting that side of the -- side of the political field ginned up for the election. i agree with melinda.

it doesn't persuade independent minded women in the middle who are more concerned about jobs and economic growth and maybe even the federal deficit. those are issues that i think are higher on the list of concerns for americans in both genders. >> you know, the question in politics is always do they care about people like me? >> right. >> there are two -- i hate to say it, there are two kinds of women, married and unmarried women. i think i'm safe on that one. will tl are two kinds of women. single women and birth control. single guys and birth control. it's a big issue. birth control is a big issue of responsibility, i personally think. it's a big part of your life, avoiding irresponsible pregnancies. after having certain pacing, you reserve the right to decide in our moderate society when to have children, right? these are fairly common positions people take. >> right. >> are the republican party, is the republican party cognizant of these facts i just laid out? >> i'm not -- >> are they fighting -- >> unlike rush limbaugh, i'm not a spokesman for the republican

party. i'm not going to do that. i think that, you know, the debate now has moved from abortion to this much larger issue of war on women. the more they play into that narrative that's been around for a while, it's not really even about contraceptives per se. it's all these things taken together. it's the rush limbaugh comment. it's, you know, even planned parenthood under attack from coleman. i mean all these pieces of the conversation over the last couple months, i think all feed into this idea that republicans are unfriendly to women. whether that's unfair or not, i think it's a potent thing. >> powerful statement by secretary of state clinton yesterday, don't you think? very powerful. it's a worldwide problem. >> absolutely. and i just want to say, chris, you said something quite wise, as you so often do, about the difference between married women and single women. pollsters tell thus is one of the fundamental divides in the american electorate that married

women tend to vote republican. single women who have lives that are a little more fragile, they feel more on edge and more concerned that they might need the government's help at some point are much more likely to be democrats. the challenge for democrats is getting single women out to vote. >> yeah. i did notice that over the years. thank you so much. >> thank you, chris. >> up next, actor george clooney joins us today. he's coming here and he's in washington trying to bring attention to the horrific humanitarian crisis going on in south sudan. he'll be on in a minute. [ male announcer ] the game of life with the prius c! ♪ oh, my maltipoo's depressed. but my affordable prius c means i can pay for his acupuncture.

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[ woman ] go ahead and take your blindfolds off. oh! [ laughs ] look at all this garbage! [ male announcer ] introducing new febreze car. eliminates odors for continuous freshness so you can breathe happy. welcome back to "hard dball" a humanitarian crisis is developing in sudan. actor george clooney got back from mission there and testified today before the senate foreign relations committee about the atrocities he witnessed. >> we visited sudan in january 2011. at the time it was estimated to have 120,000 inhabitants. today, there are none. they're either dead or they're refugees because they had the bad luck of being born on the border, being born if oil rich land or being born black. that is a fact.

>> tomorrow george clooney's scheduled to meet with both president obama and secretary of state hillary clinton. george clooney joins us now along with human rights activist john pendergas. a group that works to stop genocide. george, thank you for joining us. you're really starting at the beginning of educating us on what's going on over there in the border between sudan and south sudan. who's committing genocide against whom? and why? >> well, maybe too soon to call it genocidement we do know it is war crimes and atrocities. but what it is the same people. it's the same people who did it in darfur. it's the president, it's the defense minister. three men charged with war crimes at the international criminal court are the exact same people who are indiscriminantly bombing innocent civilians all through the mountains. and they are causing -- and it's

a campaign of fear and death and starvation that we've seen before, and rape, honestly, that we've seen before in the beginnings of darfur. >> is there a recognizable motive? >> the motive is you want them to get out. you want them to get off the land. first of all, it's good farming and they would like it. they would like to sell that off. but a lot of it is there is a rebel, there is fighting going on. there is a war going onment but they're not bomb willing wheing war is going on. they're bombing the people. if the people leave, then the rebels will leave. that's the theory. . >> john, does this affect us in any way? >> it has a direct effect on us, chris. i think china gets 6% of the daily imports of oil from sudan directly. and just six weeks ago south

sudan cut off all of its -- it turned off the taps of its oil flow. in a dispute with his neighbor sudan through which the pipelines the oil from the south flows. so china suddenly had to wade in international markets to buy -- to replace that 6% of the oil. that drives up the global price of oil. so it affects us directly. and directly. so there was a humanitarian imperative, but there's also an economic reason >> george and john, we've got a lot of pans on the fire now. we're worried about iran, we're worried about the continuing horror over in afghanista we're still trying to clean up the mess and get out of iraq. we're worried about syria, of course. we're still worried about what's going to happen in libya and in egypt. do we have the capacity to extend our foreign power to try

to influence events in sudan? do we have the power? >> sure. look, here's the thing. we ought to be able to do certain things, even when a lot of other things are going on. when we know that there is an emergency, we know that in the next couple of months, if these people don't get some humanitarian aid, and remember that these are people that are being attacked, they didn't have a drought and suddenly they're poor, they're being attacked and hiding in the hills so they can't grow their hills. and they're about to have a rainy season. and when they have a rainy system, we're not going to be able to get food to them and a lot of people are going to die. here's the truth. the truth of the matter is this, chris, it doesn't take a lot. we're not talking about american lives, we're not talking about money, really, what we're talking about is good old-fashioned american diplomacy. what we're good at when we set our mind to it. we have a moment in time, for the first time, we can go to china, at an executive level, perhaps the president who's meeting with president hu, that

you can sit with china, and instead of appealing to their better angels or some humanitarian cause, you can sit with china and say, listen, you guys are -- this is costing you guys money, it's costing us money. we can work -- china has all the levers in the sudan, because they have all of the infrastructure. they have $20 billion worth of oil infrastructure in the sudan. so they have the levers. so we can sit with china and say, both of us would benefit economically for your involvement in bringing a peaceful end to all of the problems that are going around in the blue nile, in avia, in south courtifan, and darfur. >> thank you so much, george clooney for the good work you're doing. and congratulations, john pendergast. and congratulations on your marriage. i'm sure you're a happier guy for it. and george, this is such a trivial matter, but i did vote for you in s.a.g. for the best actor. i did think it was worth it. >> if you want to know, i

actually voted for you, because i thought you played chris matthews in "ides of march" better than anyone possibly could have done. >> it was true. a very similitude, we call it. thank you. not like julianne moore did sarah, but pretty close. i loved the way you played that character over in hawaii. thanks for joining us on a serious matter, and we'll take it seriously. thanks so much, john pendergast, and of course, george clooney for coming on "hardball." when we return, let me finish with the mano y mano slug fest we've been waiting for. wake up! that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm. for half the calories plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8.

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let me finish tonight with this. ladies and gentlemen, the main battle is about to begin. we've been through the preliminary bouts. we've met michelle and herman and the rest of the long shots, now it backs the big fight of the year. mitt romney fighting out of belmont, massachusetts, and rick santorum, the light heavyweight from pittsburgh. the stakes are huge. the winner goes to tampa as the presumed republican nominee. he gets to face barack obama in a 3 1/2-hour debate, in fact, three of them. three 1 1/2-hour debates. but despite this one between santorum and romney will decide something else, the immediate future of the republican party, the meaning ofl political conservatism in this country. i'm looking to illinois next tuesday to give us the first big look at that answer. think of all the catholics in chicago who will vote republican. think of those who live in

chicago and who will go out for santorum in this david versus goliath fight of guts versus money. will they root for the little guy in the race or go with the former moderate governor of massachusetts, the guy with his shot to grab the center in the race against obama. and thereby knock him off. well, this much we know from experience. romney will use his connections and money backing to put a negative tv ad campaign around the clock in illinois. he will engage in the same saturation bombing he's done everywhere else. santorum will fight with what he's got, hard-right religious beliefs and a stick-to-itivness that puts romney's talk of being the resolute campaign to shame. hardly anyone but santorum thought that he was going to go this far, but he has. count me with those left, right, and center who want a good fight between these two. we need a clean fight with a clean winner. and thanks to the thoughtful citizens