good evening, i'm chris matthews down in washington. leading off tonight is the 28th time the charm for mitt romney? there's been 27 primaries and caucuses so far in this race and that's not including the territories. every time it looked like the loss could spell out mitt romney's status, he's pulled off the win. and every time he could put the race away, he's miffed. romney's people have outspent santorum an unbelievable 7-1. the polls close at 8:00 eastern tonight. msnbc is providing full coverage of the primary here on hardball, the rachel madow show. and the last word with lawrence o'donnell. >> the other story is the teenager shot to death by a neighborhood watch.

the justice department civil rights division and fbi are now on the case. we begin with today's illinois primary. chuck todd's nbc political director and ed tore for new york magazine and the nbc political analyst as well. i want to start with chuck, our expert in-house. we'll go to our other expert out-house. tell me the story here. is this going to be the end of it, money against true believer, if you will? i'm sure we can match it up a number of ways. the guy with all the money without the authenticity or the guy with all the authenticity without the money? >> if it were that black and white, then there would be more of a definitive opportunity for santorum. but we can debate that in a minute. the bottom line tonight is that nothing is going to change after tonight. romney needs an exclamation point somewhere. he didn't get it. tonight could have been big for him had he won mississippi. had he won mississippi last week, tonight would have bee the exclamation point and then you would see people come out

and say it's time to basically bring this airplane in for the landing, bring in the romney nomination for a landing. that's not going to happen tonight. instead i think a win tonight, and i think romney, 8, 10, 12 points, a big win like that, then wisconsin, april 3rd, is the moment of truth for santorum. do or die there. if he dies there, then that's the moment where romney gets to bring it in for the landing. i had charlie black on this morning. he's a romney guy. he said, after april 3rd, then it is appropriate to start asking rick santorum, what's your viability? >> it seems to me that romney can't land the plane with all the money he's got. he's got the looks, he's got the background. it's his turn. the rushl republican usual republican rule, you wait your turn. it's his turn. something is not there. when is it going to be there? >> well, chris, i'm not sure it's ever going to be there in the sense that it's very clear. again, we've been saying this now for so long but i guess it bears repetition. this is a guy who does not have

a deep or meaningful or visceral connection to the republican base. it has been the case throughout his entire front runnerhood that he's not been able to motivate the people who now make up the republican party in the republican electorate. they are not in love with rick santorum, either, they really weren't in love with newt gingrich. they've tried on every possible piece of clothes and none of them ever really fit. romney seems, because of his resources, because of the way the calendar lays out, not just with illinois but heading into april, he's got a lot of races he should be able to put santorum away. if he doesn't pull out a big surprise in wisconsin, santorum won't win anything in wisconsin besides pennsylvania, which is his home state. i'm not sure how he goes through that straight month without winning anything. he's winning a war of attrition. that's what he's doing, but he's not winning the hearts and minds of the republic can electorate. >> chris, here's the deal. the republican party is looking for a transitional leader.

the problem they have is mitt romney is a transitional leader and he's a transition inside this republican party where it is today. he's not even promising transformation of the republican party. he's not trying to bring it back to the days of when he and his father would have been more comfortable inside the old republican party. if they were, then you could say he's trying to be transformational. rick santorum is the one trying to make the case that he's the transformational leader, that a party who wants to transform itself needs, and that's mitt romney's struggle. >> the wall street journal's op-ed page, one of the writers there wroelt this. if mr. romney could speak about obamacare the way mr. santorum does not simply as a policy disagreement but as a threat to our freedom, he would be locking up the nomination. >> he uses that language. correct me if i'm wrong.

>> he used that language. tries to say this election is about freedom. he tried this every day, the speech at the embassy in chicago. freedom is on the ballot. he's tried this. it's just not in him. i think you can do all the language crafting in the world, this is not who he is, it's not -- he is a fix-it guy. there's nothing wrong with that. that's who he is. >> we'll finish up quick and get to the ads and elements tonight. is that the way you see it, he's a fix-it guy, he is a man of heart and gut, he is a man of the mind who will fix things and meet problems as they occur, but don't ask him for a big philosophical reason to exist. >> his presidency would be an in-box, out-box presidency. i don't mean to demean that. he is a problem solver. he does say the words, as chuck said. but there's no poetry. he will campaign in pros. >> the romney campaign and super pac 7-1 in illinois. here's a romney campaign ad

launched friday in illinois. it goes after santorum. using the tug, and this is pretty add homonym. economic lightweight. something he's repeated on the trail. >> who can turn around the economy and defeat barack obama? not rick santorum. santorum's real weakness is the economy. he's never run a business or a state. his plan? economic illiteracy. inexcusable. the worst idea of the gop candidate. rick santorum. economic lightweight. mitt romney ready to lead the nation to a new era with the boldest gop era since ronald reagan. >> i'm mitt romney and i approve this message. >> it sounds like street corner talk. >> how much is that, $100 million for advertising, and they're talking like, hey, you frigging lightweight. lightweight. the kind of the way they talk now. is this when kids were mad at each other in school? you lightweight.

is this how far we've gotten in civility, they call each other that stuff? >> yes, i think so. and we discussed this on the program yesterday. neither one of them has a very positive message and they have resorted to tearing each other down. i will note that in. remember hillary clinton. shame on you, barack obama. that was her version of the same street corner talk. when you're tired, you get mean and petty and that's where these guys are. >> let's take a look at rick santorum. he drew criticism last night for saying he doesn't care what the unemployment rate will be. you know what he's talking about. it's about bigger stuff than that. but he got trouble, let's watch. >> we need a candidate who is going to be a fighter for freedom, who is going to get up and make that the central theme in this race, because it is the central theme in this race. i don't care what the unemployment right is going to be. it doesn't hinge on employment rates or growth rates.

there's something more foundational going on here. >> he was out there talking it on the stump. let's watch. >> the people running also for the republican nomination today says he doesn't care about the unemployment rate, that doesn't bother him. i do care about the unemployment rate. it does bother me. >> one of the other people -- what is that? one of the other people. >> just come up. just say, hey, look, i heard santorum say this. >> can't they talk. >> exactly. they're trying -- he's trying to pretend that he's not punching down, and i get it. that was so january. this is march. you know what i mean? >> and we're not improving. >> late last night on fox, santorum will try to clarify if. let's watch. >> what i said, the unemployment right rait. rate. it didn't matter what it was between, because the industry causing the unemployment, causing the economic distress in our country is the fact that the

government is imposing its will and mandating things on people and creating a yoke on top of businesses that makes it hard to employ. >> okay. the difference -- for the average person who just came here for the moon, what's the difference between santorum and romney? >> philosophical and tactics. what santorum is trying to say is this isn't about the unemployment rate is high and i'm the best guy to run and this environment at this time. whoa, whoa, whoa. we're a republican party that has a philosophy, an idealogy. we're trying to decide from 6,000 feet, let's not have an argument over who runs best against barack obama. thank you, guys. about 8 points tonight for romney. but that's my gut. >> i've seen your head shake up and down. >> all i know is third. >> i haven't heard it. >> neither have i. >> i'm going by what i've heard for days now. i always root for the underdog

in this business. even when people can't stand it. the illinois closes tonight 8:00 eastern time, that means 700 out there in chicago. we may have results here. maybe, maybe, maybe. we'll certainly have results throughout the night beginning at 8:00. trayvon martin was the unarmed african-american teenager who was shot and killed by the neighborhood watch captain who said he acted in self-defense. this is murky as hell. the justice department and the fbi have launched investigations and now a grand jury is looking into it as well. it's no longer a local matter.

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key battle ground state. obama does now lead mitt romney in virginia by eight points, 50 to 42. that's significant. and against rick santorum, the president's lead stretches to nine, 49-40. obama turned virginia from red to blue last time around. hopes to keep it in his column. this time this could have a big impact on who the vp is on the republican side. we'll be right back. re, the landscaping business grows with snow. to keep big winter jobs on track, at&t provided a mobile solution that lets everyone from field workers to accounting, initiate, bill, and track work in real time. you can't live under a dome in minnesota, that's why there's guys like me. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪

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paid-in-full discount. [yawning] homeowner's discount. safe driver discount. chipmunk family reunion. someone stole the nuts. squirrel jail. justice! countless discounts. now that's progressive. call or click today. the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager has grabbed the attention of a the u.s. justice department and federal grand jury. on february 26, trayvon martin was returning home from a convenience store when he was shot by a neighborhood watch volunteer, george zimmerman. here's part of the 911 call zimmerman placed. >> we've had some break-ins in our neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy.

this guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something. it's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. >> this guy, is he white, black or hispanic? >> he looks black. he's got his hand in his waistband. and he's a black male. something is wrong with him. he's coming to check me out. he's got something in his hands. i don't know what his deal is. >> we've got them on the way. just let me know if this guy does something else. >> okay. >> these [ bleep ], they always get away. >> are you following him? >> yeah. >> we don't need you to do that. >> okay. >> zimmerman followed trayvon and an argument ensued. other 911 calls picked up screams and the fatal gunshot. you can hear it now. >> 911, do you need police, fire or medical? >> maybe both, i'm not sure. there's just someone screaming

outside. >> is it a male or female? >> it sounds like a male. >> and you don't know why? >> i don't know why. i think they're yelling help, but i don't know. >> so you think he's yelling help? >> yes. >> what is your -- >> there's gunshots. >> days and weeks passed without charges being filed. almost 500,000 people signed an on-line petition in protest and last night the justice department opened an investigation into the case of the neighborhood watch volunteer. did he feel threatened as zimmerman claimed or was it a case of vigilante justice against a young man? congressman cleaver, i don't know what to say here except to ask you, how did you get involved in this case? what do you think we're looking at here? >> well, a group of law students

from colleges and universities all over florida went down to jacksonville after the incident to offer assistance. one of the young women who is in law school was a parishioner in the congregation i pastored in kansas city, and the family asked her to get involved. we immediately made a request for a justice department investigation, and it's one of the great tragedies. i think every african-american man with children can understand this particular kid. this kid was killed essentially because he was armed with skittles. it's one of those sad moments that causes all of us, i think, to realize that we still have some major problems in this country. suspicion is so easily received if it's based on skin color. >> yeah, but this wasn't an officer of law involved, and i think i want to ask you, you've

been look a the case. so what is your main concern for bad behavior and on the part of criminal behavior on the part of mr. zimmerman and the police down there? was it the fact that a non-police officer, a civilian in a neighborhood watch organization, was armed? was it the fact that he followed what he thought was a suspicious person or that he used lethal force in some kind of confrontation of some kind or he simply executed the person? what is your sense of what happened here and what do you think was done wrong here point by point? >> everything. first of all, once the police department told the gentleman through the dispatcher, we don't need you to do that, we don't need you to get involved in this, that's the point that the average citizen, the average man or woman of good will, would stop. the kid is screaming for help. we hear the gunshots. i even hate to hear it anymore.

and then maybe the worst thing that i heard the man say was they always get away with it. so i'm thinking, you know, he's determined now not to let this kid get away. i think that was the point that he was -- had made the decision of what he was going to do, and i think the justice department is going to find out what happened and what the sheriff did wrong. let met tell you one other thing very quickly. i was mayor of kansas city for eight years. we have not had an incident like this in kansas city in a couple of decades. one of the reasons is we've had good police chiefs, but if a police officer shoots a civilian, even if it's justifiable, if it's a justifiable shooting, the police officer is immediately suspended with pay. this man was able to shoot and kill a kid and then walk away with his gun. >> i know. i even watch police stories in northern cases like philadelphia, new york, the administrative leave is a normal m.o. for a police officer using

his professional discretion. gene, we've got something down there as you know. in ten or twelve states now, 16 states now, we have something called a stand your ground law, which means if you're in a confrontation with somebody, regardless of the circumstances, and you feel threatened, you don't have to try to get out of it. you can pull your gun and kill the guy. and that's the defense. >> and i think that's one of the main things that turned this from an ordinary racially charged, i would say, racist encounter between this guy and trayvon martin into a tragedy was the fact that he could, with basically impunity, at least thus far, shoot the guy if he could credibly say, i felt threatened. he can credibly say that because apparently, at least according to local authorities, there were not witnesses. now we do know that there were people who may have heard something that was going on, and we'll see what the investigation comes up with.

>> we have to get all this in here. sabrina, trayvon martin's mother, spoke with matt lauer and described what she believed motivated the attack. this is what she believes. >> what do you think he was reacting to? >> he was reacting to the color of his skin. he committed no crime. my son wasn't doing anything but walking on the sidewalk. >> you know, i go back to this, congressman, when you investigate this, do you think there is abuse done by the local police authorities in not pursuing this case aggressively or what? where do you think the federal role here fits? >> first of all, i need to say this because we don't say this enough. the things that should have happened a few weeks ago are happening now, and i'm thankful for that. the justice department responded, they are down there, we have people on the ground from the human relations division of the justice department trying to make sure that we don't have an explosion

of emotions in sanford, and, chris, about two hours ago, i stood beside the white republican mayor of sanford, florida who, along with myself and corinne brown, the congresswoman from the area, spoke at a press conference about the need for the justice department to come in and conduct an investigation not only of the shooting but of the police department. and so the things that -- 25 or 30 years ago if this had happened, we would only have had black people out trying to get justice. but now i think people of good will from all walks of life are saying something unjust happened. >> another element here is a 16-year-old girlfriend of trayvon martin, the guy that was killed, was on the phone with him during the incident and she described what she heard in an interview on "good morning america" earlier today. let's listen to that. >> he said this man was watching him so he put his hoodie on.

then the man said, what you doing around here? then somebody pushed trayvon because the headset just fell. >> there is evidence, or testimony, that there was some kind of shoving or altercation going on there at the time. i think everybody is fairly trying to figure out if race is involved because of the way he is talking, but also, this is a guy trying to act like a police officer. >> obviously. or apparently. this should have been investigated. this should have been investigated then and there, and maybe we would have had a somewhat different outcome. but again, you've got this legal setup. anybody can get a gun -- >> you raised the question. as a good journalist, you've give an question for mr. cleaver. mr. cleaver, do you think there is something fundamentally wrong

with the stand your ground law? does it create an impetus for gunfire? >> well, i think when you have a gun on you, it gives you a sense of strength and power that you would not feel otherwise, and i think that people, human beings will tend to use guns when normally they would have walked away. and i think the stand your ground law is absolutely asinine that you can declare a confrontation almost with anybody and shoot them down. and if they're the only witness, you walk away. something has to be done. liberals might get angry with me on my moderate position with guns, but on this law, and the way guns are used, i think that there's no excuse for what happened. and that law needs to be changed, quickly. >> if you have both, you have a problem. if you have both readily available guns and a law that essentially takes away

accountability for a shooting. if nobody saw it, there's no accountability. >> then you have a neighborhood watch system where a guy brings a gun out on watch. >> you are asking for trouble. >> it's just toxic. thank you so much for coming on the program today. thank you, as always, eugene robinson. the parents of trayvon martin will be on the "today" show tomorrow morning. coming up, much more on the republican race in illinois. the polls close in illinois at 8:00 eastern. we'll be reporting on that. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc.

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someday we could be debating but here we are discussing it civilly. you are the kind of congressman i grew up with. all over new england. they're all gone, practically. olympia snow just quit. arlen hatch is being accused of being a liberal. your party has become a right wing party. >> no doubt about it, the moderates have been exiled. bob bennett is not pure enough. mike castle loses to a woman who has to declare herself to be a witch. and when olympia snow and susan collins voted against disclosure of these corporate and union expenditures, there's no moderate left on the republican side of the united states senate. >> and so the party of lincoln became the party of strom thurman, hasn't it? is that too rough? >> it won't become the party of rick santorum, however, it's

gone so far to the right, but i don't think it's gone so far as to make rick santorum the nominee. >> here is 5 dispute, a little kerfuffle. >> here rick santorum was asked about his endorsement of you in the presidential race in '96. i remember when you ran. here's what he says. now let's watch. >> why did you support arlen specter for president? >> well, you know, when your colleague is running for office, and i was his colleague in the united states senate, he asked had he to stand with him. that certainly wasn't one of my prouder moments i look back on, but look, you know, you work together as a team for the state of pennsylvania, and, you know, i felt that senator specter had stood up and supported me, and when i was running in 1994 and i did likewise, i certainly knew arlen specter was going nowhere, i certainly disagreed with a lot of the things he said, and it was something i look back on and

wish i hadn't done. >> now we have inquisitions in the republican party. you have to recant like a medieval church. you have to say, i did not believe that. that wasn't my proud moment. that wasn't me. and that's all these guys do now. anything that sounds moderate or reasonable. charlie crist hugged the president and he lost his seat because he contacted the president once. down in florida. this is what's happened to your party. >> it hasn't gone so far as to make rick santorum the republican nominee. when rick takes positions that women don't belong in the workplace, when he takes positions that the gay issue is bestiality, man on dog, and contraception ought not to be followed, he is so far out of the mainstream that i think even the republican party won't take him. >> do you think there is going to be a whipback, a pushback on the far right?

because the tea party seems to be calling the shots in congress, and boehner doesn't seem to be able to control them, and canter. those guys are at the top but they're not running the show. guys like mitch mcconnell stay on the top by playing to that crowd. >> you can go to the right, far right, but you can't be far out. and when -- >> senator, you're trying -- look, you're trying -- these clowns don't believe in revenue. they don't believe in government taxation. they think there is something evil about taxing people. they don't believe in government. how can you believe in government and not taxes? >> well, i'm not going to dispute with you, but their policies are wrong. when i supported the stimulus package, there were irreconcilable differences between the republican party and me. and it is true that they have driven olympia snow out and susan collins is very afraid of a primary when she comes up. >> in maine, yeah.

>> so in the presidential race, the potential nominees have gone to the extreme right. and that's not going to be satisfactory with the american people. listen, when the people of pennsylvania found out about rick santorum, he lost in his reelection 59-41. >> i'll say it now. you as a moderate republican fit pennsylvania like a glove for 30 yeerds. there is something like a state that likes having moderate republicans like you and tom ridge and hue scott and the northeast should represented by moderate republicans. >> but the moderates left the republican party when the clinton-obama race came up in 2008, 200,000 moderate republicans left. >> you're making my case. thank you for coming on "hardball." we're going to talk about that book. there it is, "life among the cannibals." who are the cannibals?

>> the can balances are the tea party. olympia snowe, mike castle and bob bennett. >> you're part of the lean forward here. >> can rick santorum pull off an upset tonight in illinois? this "hardball" coverage covers the illinois primary today, only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. omnipotent of opportunity. you know how to mix business... with business. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above. and still pay the mid-size price. i could get used to this. [ male announcer ] yes, you could business pro. yes, you could. go national. go like a pro.

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here's what's happening. a strong 7.4 earthquake rocks southern mexico earlier swaying buildings and sending terrified people into the streets. the quake which lasted about a minute was centered 120 miles east of acapulco. telephone lines and reception knocked out after shots were felt. it was one of the strongest to shake mexico since 1985's

devastating quake that left thousands dead. so far no deaths are reported here. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." polls in illinois will be closed at 8:00 eastern and the contest between romney and santorum is getting more and more heated. romney called santorum an economic lightweight and santorum called romney a financier. listening to them speak, it is as if they're seeking entirely different offices. the chicago tribune wrote that romney is attempting to woo the conservative way into the republican party while santorum is going for the social conservatives. who will win out?

gentlemen, let's take a look at these elements. the candidates faced them yesterday. let's watch. >> i'm someone experienced in the economy. i'm not an economic lightweight. president obama is. we're going to have to replace him with someone who knows how to run this economy. >> santorum came back with this using a clash based technique. >> i heard governor romney called me an economic lightweight because i wasn't a wall street financier like he was. do you really believe this country wants to electricity a wall street financier as president of the united states, someone who is going to take and look after, as he did, his friends on wall street and bail them out at the expense of mainstream america?

>> is that true? you're working for a financier? is that what your guy is? >> i don't know what financier is. >> it's a turnaround. >> yeah be i understand it. it's a turn-around. >> yeah, but the way to win in illinois is a moderate like mark kirk did, winning overwhelmingly throughout the state. that's the message governor romney had. he's going to have a big night here, big win. he is on the ballot in the congressional district. i think you'll see a big change here in illinois. >> do you like the phrase lightweight? do you think that's a nice way to talk about a political opponent when you've been fighting it out after 24 fights? is that improving the dialogue or reducing it? >> i'll let the political consultants answer that. >> that's your candidate's lingo. do you like it? >> he's comparing him to president obama, and the reality

is, when president obama -- >> are they lightweights? >> i think so. that's why we're going to get someone in the white house who has some hands on business sector experience. >> had you ever met the president? do you ever get the sense he's a lightweight? i can understand a philosophical debate where you say, this guy, our president a lightweight? that's the least effective categorization of him, i would think. >> experiencewise, yeah, he is a lightweight. we lived with him a long time, chris. we had a lot of respect for him, we all liked him, but don't call him a lightweight on economic issues. we're paying the price for it. >> let me talk to brady bender. this is so high school. go ahead. >> what it really comes down to is records, and what's a maze to go me is that romney is trying to present himself as a successful businessman and nobody has really looked at his record hard enough. >> he's rich. >> he is rich, you got to give him that.

>> then he must be successful. >> as governor in massachusetts, they were third worse in job creation. >> did your guy ever make a quarter of a million bucks? >> romney has paid $13 for every vote he's got, santorum has paid $3 for every vote he's got. either romney is the worst businessman that he's overpaying or he's the worst candidate that he has to pay that much to get votes. >> this is something from the wall street journal. i think it speaks well to this campaign. or speaks well to it. if mr. romney could speak about obamacare the way santorum does not simply as a policy disagreement but as a threat to our freedom, he'd be locking up the nomination. >> does your guy lack the ability >> i don't agree with that. to speak with heart? we don't go to rallies and cry. we want someone who can fix the economy and lays out a specific agenda to do that. he doesn't have a spark, he's

not emotional, nobody cares. we have a really bad economy nationally, we have a worse one here in illinois. we just want someone who is a competent manager of our economy. >> your response to that? he just said your guy cries. >> yeah, i think he's people are reducing the presidency to the commerce secretary or the labor secretary. we have iran moving quickly to create a bomb. we have china closing our manufacturing. all these things going on, this ridiculous debt, freedom is taken away and all romney wants to talk about is what labor statistics are. those are important. but that's not -- >> so he is a bean counter. >> so your guy is a big thinker. >> i think so. >> i think there is no doubt about it. >> a bean counter against a big thinker. by the way, welcome to the show, sir. much more on the race in illinois. polls close at 8:00 eastern, and our panel is going to be there to preview all the action in about a minute. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. [ captain ] sorry folks, our landing time got moved back another hour. [ crowd chatters and groans ] ♪

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and michael steele. both msnbc political analysts. and malika henderson. we've got brand new exit poll information out of illinois and the illinois primary voters. we asked which candidate would most likely beat barack obama? not surprisingly, nearly all of romney voters, 93%, said they thought their guy was most electable. but 28% of santorum voters said they saw him beating obama. howard, speak of sports, that means people would rather vote for the guy, at least in some locations, they deeply believe in rather than the guy in november. >> i think some of those people buy santorum's argument, that you have to solidify the base, and if the base isn't really excited, isn't ready to walk through walls, then that's a weak position to be in against the president. >> tweedledum and tweedledee argument. does it work? they're too close in the end to

president and the moderate republican, former governor of massachusetts? in the end their too close to excite the public? >> i think there's some truth to that. i know that's a fear for a lot of base. when you get the two of them stacked up that the similarities are too real for the base to stomach. they are still pushing to get a conservative to the line. >> this is great human case of people do i do what we're supposed to do to win. or do i do what makes me feel good when i walk out that polling booth? >> it's the heart versus the head. that's what santorum is doing well when those people see a chance to have a real conservative, a nominee in this party and lead this party. they didn't have that chance with john mccain. >> now it was the good guy here. the guy that has the heart.

now we're going to find out what purity is. pastor dennis terry. let's take a look what the he is preaching from the pulpit that he shares with rick santorum. >> as long as sexual perversion is becoming normalized somebody needs to stand up and say god forgive us. god have mercy upon us as they continue to tear down traditional. god intended for marriage to be between a man and a woman, and as long as they continue to attack marriage, somebody needs to take stand and say no. no, no, no! [ applause ] >> enough. enough. enough is enough. >> that's the raw seat of the hurricane. that's ha people are afraid of

when they see santorum. here is pastor went onto say that christians are the key to an american revival. let's listen. same guy. >> listen closely. i'm telling you my friend, i believe that christians in america are the key to revival. i believe that christians in america is the key to the economy turning around. i believe that christians in america is the key to the jobless rate continue to go down. i believe, it's a spiritual thing, if we put god back in america, put god back in our pulpits, put god back in our homes and in our state house and then in washington, d.c., then we can have revival in america and the holy spirit will show up and great and mighty things will happen for this country. >> this guy goes on to say if you don't love america and don't like the way we do things, get out. we worship god. we worship god son jesus christ.

this guy is selling it. how close to the pulpit can a candidate get without looking like hee is part of it. >> i don't think in rick santorum's case he doesn't really care. he's as close to the pulpit as he can get. his secret service nickname is petrus for peter that has everything to do with the catholic chur catholic church. he's had the blessing, the laying on hands repeatedly. he embraces almost every the religious rhetoric. i'm just reporting. >> we see time and again in these pollings that the catholics are not voting in if you remembers for him. they are voting for romney. >> there are a lot of catholics in the polls that are democrats too. >> i'm talking about the republican primary. >> there's a truth to that because there's an evangelical element of what you just saw there that does not appeal to traditional catholics even though rick considers himself

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pastor terry's comments we're all pointing to. let's listen. >> he's obviously allowed to believe what he wants to believe. obviously, i believe in freedom of religion. i think i've ahead that pretty clear throughout my campaign. >> would you say he's made that clear he believes the separation of church and state? >> he hasn't made that clear. the comment he made about the j.f.k. speech, he wanted to throw up. he is walking hand in hand with these preachers. he's going to be down in louisiana on wednesday and thursday speaking at a church, worshipping there. he's introduced by pastors who talk about lifting him up in the name of jesus christ. he knows what he's doing. this is his base. they are the responsible for his surge. the question is can he sustain it and in illinois. >> is this going to be reality in your party, the republican party, as we go through this general election. is it going to play a role. if romney wins the nominee?

>> no more than it was in 2008. >> they won't be able to demand a role in this. you think howard they have place to demand a role? >> it's somewhat wishful thinking on the chairman. i guarantee you there will be an argument about what the stage looks like. whether it looks too much like a church or not. >> and what's in the party's background. >> i don't think it's going to rise to that level. wishful thinking. >> it's going to be pretty prayerful. >> santorum is a guy with nothing going for him. >> you think romney will have to pick up the phone and ask santorum what he wants. >> hopes for silent prayer. thanks for being with us. polls in illinois are about to close.