level. karen finney, good to have you. thank you very much. the rachel maddow show starts now. good evening, rachel. it looks like it's mitt. >> it's going to be interesting over the course of the night. thanks, ed. thanks to you at home for staying with us in the next hour. tonight is the illinois republican primary. as ed just told you, polls closed about an hour ago. mitt romney has won the state of illinois, mitt romney the projected winner in that state. the latest results we have right now are 19% in, mitt romney 54% of the vote, rick santorum, 28% of the vote, ron paul 9% of the vote, newt gingrich, 7% of the vote. we'll be watching those percentages in the rankings of the other candidates as the percentages of the vote increases.

this is exciting. this is election night. republicans in the great state of illinois making big consequential decisions whether to punch their ballot for mitt romney, rick santorum, ron paul or newt gingrich. actually, that's not the way it has worked at all. have you seen what the ballot looks like that republicans were using tonight in illinois? it's different in every county, but this is representative. let's put up the macon county ballot. if you're going to vote in illinois and you're voting in macon county, which is right in the middle of the state, if you want mitt romney to be president, you can indicate you want mitt romney to be president of the united states, but whether or not you do that, it doesn't really mean anything. it does not get totaled for any official purpose. we will tell you tonight what the final results are of how people filled in that part of their ballot, but that's -- as important as it is, that's essentially the end of it. those results don't actually go toward any other purpose.

if you actually want to commit an act of furtherance toward mitt romney getting nomination for the republican party for president, it does not matter whether or not you vote for mitt romney today in illinois. i know that sounds counterintuitive, but it's true. if you want to help mitt romney become the republican's party for president, today in illinois, you would have had to vote for, in macon county, habeebe habeebe. and jan miller. and james newburg. james la grecian and joe mitchell. those are the votes you would have had to cast today to contribute to mitt romney getting the presidential nomination for president. it does not matter who you vote for for president, it matters which individual delegates you vote for and who they stand for. now, let's say you do like mitt romney, but let's say you hate this guy jimmy john liautaud, or

you hate one of these other people. you can't vote for them because you had a dispute about the height of a fence this guy put up near your child's ballpark. you have a random dispute for one of these delegates. you can pick all the other people listed as the mitt romney delegates but not the guy you don't like. let's say your other delegate choice is jim hendricks. this is all hypothetical. i don't know who these people are, but it says on your ballot that jim hendricks is for newt gingrich. even though you're not particularly for newt gingrich, that's okay, you can pick him as a delegate. if you did that, how would your vote be counted, then? should that be seen as a vote most formal mitt romney but also a little bit for newt gingrich because you picked a newt gingrich delegate along with your mitt romney votes? your expression in what you want to happen in the delegate who

has some meaning for who might be picked for president, it has esoteric meaning in illinois today. there is a whole swath of illinois that has a different ballot in one very important way. say you live in macon county and you're not a mitt romney fan. instead you are a rick santorum fan. more than anything, you want rick santorum to be president. for that reason, it probably felt awesome for you when you went out and voted in macon county today. you made your mark. you punched that ballot that your vote for the republican party's presidential nominee is for rick santorum. he's your guy. you voted for rick santorum. in someplace like macon county, that means nothing, nothing at all. you have made yourself feel good by stating your preference and nbc and all the other news agencies will eventually report how many people committed that feeling today. but if you don't just want to feel like you want rick santorum for president, if you turned out

to vote today because you actually want to help rick santorum secure the nomination of the republican party for president, you are out of luck. there was nothing you could do today in macon county on your ballot to make it more likely that rick santorum would win the nomination. because even though you can express that you want him to be your party's nominee, there are no delegates to vote for that have rick santorum's name next to them. and macon county and other parts of the state -- you can see the macon county balance locality. three guys for romney, three alternates for romney, three for ron paul, three alternates for gingrich. there was no alternates for rick santorum if you were a rick santorum supporter today. even though santorum got some delegates, he didn't get enough of them. everyone has a full slate of first tier delegates, but when it comes to the alternates, each candidate is supposed to have

four. ron paul only has two, rick santorum only has one, so what are you going to do if those are your candidates? if you're going to split the delegates around and vote for all sorts of different delegates, how should the rest of us determine the importance of what you do? if you were voting in illinois today, you were quite within your rights to vote for, say, buddy romer for president and then vote for one delegate of each of the candidates that had delegates. you could vote for a paul delegate, a santorum delegate, a romney delegate, a gingrich delegate, you could split them up that way. t when we're trying to figure out what illinois wants, how should a vote like that be considered? as i mentioned at the top, nbc news has now declared mitt romney the projected winner of illinois. that means he has been chosen by people who expressed a non-binding preference unrelated to delegates, right? in terms of who ought to win the republican party's nomination

from illinois. ultimately what will mostly have been achieved tonight in illinois is steeply heightened cynicism about whether the republican nominating contest is a transparent election, whether these votes express the will of the voters on their favorite party. heightened speculation about that. the other result is that the illinois drugstore has probably sold a lot of antacid today for voters trying to figure out a ballot that looks like this. if you turned out today thinking, all i want to do is vote for ron paul. aim and shoot, right? for a ballot this complicated rkts what are you going to do? macon county was one of 26 jurisdictions today where the ballot literally did not fit into the tallying machine. the ballots were too wide for the scanners in two dozen counties, and therefore, they could not be put through the machines. good luck trying to vote on this puppy, right, without any mechanical assistance, right? just aim. do what you will.

the illinois republican primary is impentrable, frankly. illinois is one of the good ones. this was one of the bad ones this week. vote! vote! vote! >> point of order! point of order! >> this is what happened in the previous nomination this week. this was the republican caucus in the great state of missouri this past weekend. it kind of makes illinois look great today, doesn't it? i know what you're thinking. missouri? i thought missouri voted weeks ago. sort of. missouri state law required republicans there to hold a primary on february 7. but because that would earn them a punishment from the national republican party, missouri republicans tried to change that date until later. but they couldn't get it together to change that state

law despite controlling the entire legislature, so they decided to spend 7 million taxpayer dollars holding that primary as required by state law on february 7 even though that primary did not count for anything. rick santorum was very proud to have won that missouri contest. he went to the republican stronghold of st. charles county. he gave them a big speech thanking them for that big fake win that meant nothing, but the real contest, the binding vote, the caucuses in missouri were actually this past weekend, and this is what it looked like in that same st. charles county. >> i'm sorry. >> remove the chair! remove the chair! remove the chair! remove the chair! remove the chair! remove the chair! >> now, st. charles, missouri is just outside st. louis. it's a republican stronghold in the state. so much so that this county has more delegates to allocate to the republican primary than anyplace in the whole state, but

they so far allocated none because their process was this. their process was shut down by police before the weekend. i guess they thought it was going to turn into a riot. they had them shut down the caucus before they voted on any delegates. one told the paper, quote, i don't know what's going to happen because i don't think this has happened before. and one republican said, quote, i think we embarrassed the party. remember, this is the place that has the most delegates to give in the entire state. this was the republican stronghold. not only do we not know where they get their delegates, but missouri republicans can't even figure out how they're going to figure it out. they can't figure out how the delegates are going to be allocated. it wasn't just st. charles county where the republicans unraveled this weekend. this was the scene in clay county, missouri on the other side of the state. >> the chaos inside the caucus started even before the pledge of allegiance.

ron paul supporters tried to take control by electing their own chairman and ousting the clay county gop leader, ben beckey. he sometimes lost control of the meeting and threatened to have people thrown out. >> that's enough! that's your last warning. >> clay county, missouri did, through that process, eventually pick some delegates. but the chaos among missouri republicans is not over yet. these disastrous caucuses are expected to continue going on for weeks. and this is just what it's like in the republican contest now. there have been crazy caucuses in presidential campaigns in the past, but there has never been this much chaos in state after state after state in modern times. from the iowa caucus results being reversed to maine republicans announcing the results before a whole swath that the state had voted, to missouri having the cops break up the caucuses at their own request and then not voting, this has been an absolute mess. remember when you heard wyoming

voted back in february, and they gave wyoming to mitt romney. in that state they have still only allocated about half their delegates so far. they're eking them out over time and today they decided to take one of the santorum delegates away and give them to mitt romney instead. why? has something changed in wyoming? i have no idea. i strain trying to figure it out. i still can't figure out how ron paul won the u.s. virj in islands vote. despite ron paul having won the vote in the u.s. virgin islands, it was mitt romney who was given 7 of the 9 delegates there. so illinois tonight. huge deal? maybe. we can tell you at this hour what the latest results are of the non-binding, non-delegate-related precedence selection which is connected to the process in illinois. and that is that nbc news predicts that mitt romney has won the state of illinois. the total number of the vote in

is 27% of the vote, mr. romney with 52%, his competitor rick santorum with 30% of the vote, ron paul and newt gingrich both in single digits. the closer you look at this thing, i have to say on a night like this, looking at delegate allocation not only in tonight's race but all the other races where it is still going on and still in motion, it does sort of give you a little sympathy for people in the campaigns who say frankly, if you're only reading the headlines here, you don't have any idea how this race is going. people who you think have a shot might not and people who you don't think have a shot might. it's impossible to know what's going on here if delegates are the real gain. frankly, i don't think the republican party has any idea, either. coming up it's john who wihorow the "new york times." mitt romney and rick santorum are expected to speak separate toll their supporters now that mitt romney has been declared the win tonight. we'll bring it all to you. stay with us.

we're looking at a live

picture here of mitt romney and his wife ann romney speaking to their supporters in shomberg, illinois, which is west chicago. mr. romney has been declared the winner of the primary in the great state of illinois. the polls closed at 8:00 and it was not yet 9:00, not even an hour before nbc news was able to project that result tonight. usually the way things go in terms of late night election speeches, mrs. romney will do sort of thethanking the state-based volunteers and staff. she will go through and name all the names and then mr. romney will step up to the podium and make a prepared speech. i should also let you know that as mitt romney is about to speak to his supporters, we are also addressing rick santorum to be addressing his supporters tonight, as well mr. santorum not giving a victory speech, but if past is any prologue, we can

expect santorum to be focusing on the next contest, which is this coming saturday in louisiana. right now the polling in louisiana actually shows mr. santorum having a good chance there. mr. romney has not fared well so far in deep south contests, and the next one of those, whether it's going to be good news for mr. gingrich or even more likely good news for mr. santorum is likely to be louisiana. as we're waiting for mr. romney to take the podium right now, we're joined briefly by john horowitz, political writer for the "new york times." also steve schmitt is with us, strategist for president obama's campaign in 2008. as we wait for mr. romney's remarks, thanks for being with us. >> you bet. >> steve, in terms of the candidate's role tonight, it was an expected win for mr. romney. is this an opportunity to make a national address? what should he be aiming for? >> these tuesday nights are so

important when the candidates, rachel, have an opportunity to get out there, to talk to millions of americans across a multi-network platform, to deliver their message to set up the race ahead. we've seen these candidates have some good nights where they've hit the mark on these speeches and other nights where they've been out of it. every tuesday is a big night. we'll see how he does tonight. >> steve, thank you. you and john, if you could both stick with us, i'd love to get your comments when he's done. we're about to hear mitt romney having been projected the winner of the illinois primary. >> so many friends in this room and across illinois, what a night. thank you, illinois. what a night! [ applause ] >> and, of course, i'd like to congratulate my fellow candidates on a hard fought contest here. i'd like to thank in particular the volunteers and our friends across the state, and frankly, in other states who have been

working hard. i appreciate their unwavering support through good times and bad, and tonight we thank the people of illinois for their vote and for this extraordinary victory. thank you so much. [ applause ] >> and, you know, elections are about choices. and today hundreds of thousands of people in illinois have joined millions of people across the country to join our cause. and this movement began on a small farm in new hampshire on a sunny june day. we were surrounded by a small group of our friends and some supporters and family. we shared a conviction that the america we loved was in trouble and adrift without strong leadership. and three years of barack obama have brought us fewer jobs and shrinking paychecks, but many of

us believe we are in danger of losing something more valuable than our homes and 401(k)s. after years of too many apologies and not enough jobs, historic drops in income and historic highs in gas prices, a president who doesn't hesitate to use all the means necessary to force through obamacare on the american public but leads from behind in the world. it's time to say these words. this word: enough. we've had enough. [ applause ] >> we know our future is brighter than these troubled times. we still believe in america, and we deserve a president who believes in us, and i believe in the american people. [ applause ]

>> you know that yesterday i was giving a speech at university of chicago. not very far from here, not very far from where professor barack obama taught law. it was a speech on economic freedom. and as i was writing the speech, i thought to my lifetime of experiences. i've had a lot of opportunity to learn about the unique genius of america's free enterprise system. it started, of course, with my dad. he didn't graduate from college and he would tell me about his dad who was a contractor. and you know about construction, up and down years. he never quite made it but he never gave up and raised great kids. later i helped start companies. and those began with just an idea, and somehow they made it through the difficult times and were able to create a good return for investors and

thousands of jobs. those jobs helped families buy their first homes. those jobs put kids through school. those jobs helped people live better lives, dream a little bigger. for 25 years, i lived and breathed business and the economy and jobs. i had successes and failures. but each step of the way, i learned a little bit more about what it is that makes our american system so powerful. you can't learn that teaching constitutional law at university of chicago, all right? [ applause ] >> you can't even learn that as a community organizer. the simple truth is that this president doesn't understand the genius of america's economy or the secret of the american economic success story.

the american economy is fueled by freedom. [ applause ] >> the history of the world has shown that economic freedom is the only force that has consistently lifted people out of poverty. it's the only principle that has ever been able to sustain prosperity. but over the last three years, this administration has been engaged in an all-out assault on our freedom. under this president, bureaucrats prevent drilling rigs from going to work in the gulf, they keep coal from being mined, they impede the supply of natural gas, they even tell farmers what their kids can do on their farms. this assault on freedom has kept this so-called recovery from meeting their projections, let alone our expectations. and now, by the way, the

president is trying to erase his record with some new rhetoric. the other day he said this. he said, we are inventors, we are builders, we are makers of things, we are thomas edison, we are the wright brothers. we are still jobs. wait, i missed that. we are steve jobs. that's true. but the problem is, he's still barack obama. [ applause ] >> mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt! >> you see under barack obama, those pioneers he mentioned would have faced a very difficult time trying to innovate and invent and invest and create and build jobs. you see, under dodd frank, they would have found it almost impossible to get a loan from

their community bank. and of course, the regulators would have shot down the wright brothers for dust pollution. and, of course, the government would have banned thomas edison's light bulb. oh, by the way, they just did, didn't they? [ applause ] >> now, you know that the real cost of these misguided policies, these attacks on economic freedom, this intrusion of the government into our freedom, the cost of that are the ideas that are not pursued and the dreams that aren't realized. and, therefore, all the little businesses that don't get started and the tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of workers who don't get hired. for centuries, the american dream has meant the opportunity to build something new. some of america's greatest success stories are people who

started out with nothing but a good idea and a corner in their garage. but too often today, americans who want to start a business or launch a new venture, they don't see promise and opportunity. they see government standing in the way. and i'm going to change that. we're going to get government out of the way. [ applause ] >> we once built an interstate highway system and the hoover dam. now we can't even build a pipeline. i mean, we once led the world in manufacturing, in exports, investment. today we lead the world in lawsuits. you know, when we replace a law professor with a conservative businessman as president, that's going to end. [ applause ]

>> i think you know this. every great innovation, every world-changing business breakthrough begins with a dream. and nothing is more fragile than a dream. the genius of america is that we nurture those dreams and the dreamers. we honor them. and yes, we reward them. that's part of what's uniquely brilliant about america. but day by day, job-killing regulation by job-killing regulation, bureaucrat by bureaucrat, this president is crushing the dream and the dreamers, and i will make sure that finally ends. [ applause ] >> the proof of the president's failure is seeing how tepid this economic recovery is. this administration thinks the

economy is struggling because the stimulus wasn't large enough. the truth is the economy is struggling because the government is too big. [ applause ] >> you and i know something the president still hasn't learned, even after three years and hundreds of billions of dollars of spending and borrowing. it is not the government that creates our prosperity. the prosperity of america is the product of free markets and free people, and they must be protected and nurtured. [ applause ] >> so tonight was a primary. but november is the general election. and we're going to face a defining decision as a people. our choice will not be about party or even personality. this election will be about

principle. our economic freedom will be on the ballot. i'm offering a real choice and a new beginning. i'm running for president because i have the experience and the vision to get us out of this mess. [ applause ] >> look, we know what barack obama's vision is. we've been living it these last three years. my vision is very, very different than what his is. i see an america where the prospects for our children will be better than even those that we've enjoyed during our lives. where the pursuit of success by all of us will unite us, not divide us. when a government finally understands -- [ applause ]

>> i see a time where we'll finally have a government who believes it's better for more people to pay less in taxes than for very few to pay a lot more. [ applause ] >> i see an america where the values we pass on to our children are greater than the debts we leave them. [ applause ] >> i see an america where poverty is defeated by opportunity, not enabled by a government check. [ applause ] >> i see an america that is humbled -- excuse me. i see an america that is humble, but it is never humbled that leads but is never led. i see an america that is so

unquestionably strong that no one in the world would ever think of testing the might of our military. [ applause ] >> today we took an important step towards that america. tomorrow we'll take another. each day we move closer, not just to victory but to a better america. join us. join us. together we're going to ensure that america's greatest days are still ahead. thanks, you guys! thank you so much! and god bless the united states of america! thank you! [ applause ] >> former massachusetts governor mitt romney addressing his supporters in schaumburg, illinois tonight having won the illinois primary. nbc news projecting mr. romney

as the winner in illinois tonight. we are awaiting remarks from senator rick santorum who it looks like right now in the results we have is running second in illinois. mr. santorum is not in illinois. he's in his home state of pennsylvania in gettysburg, pennsylvania. apparently a very large crowd turned out to see mr. santorum than what they were expecting. we hear he'll be speaking from the podium in the main room shortly and we'll be bringing that to you live as it happens. still with us right now, steve schmi schmidt, who was a strategist of the campaign of 2008. john horowitz from the "new york times." thank you, gentlemen, for sticking with me. i have not been listening to every speech but i've followed it closely through the evolution

of time. is this what we should expect from mr. romney, at vthe very center being what he believes. >> i do think it was significant, rachel. he had some new lines in here, some great republican applause lines. he made fun of community organizing, he made fun of law professors, and he had a whole riff about his vision for the country. plainly a general election speech, and i think there was a reason for that. this win, even though it was expected, was a big deal, because tonight we find out rick santorum is not capable of turning over the table in the way he needs to to stop mitt romney from getting this nomination. i think in primary race, while mitt romney doesn't have anything close to 1144 delegates is effectively over because santorum is not able to move to victory in a mid western state and break through. >> to follow up on that, you

feel that even if rick santorum pulls off a big win in louisiana, that's not enough to beat mitt romney at this point? >> there is not enough delegates to deny mitt romney the nomination or win it himself. this thing it going to louisiana, to maryland, to wisconsin, a bunch of states. yes, rick santorum is pennsylvania, but also new york, connecticut, new jersey, states in the northeast. i think we found out tonight that rick santorum just can't damage mitt romney enough to stop it. >> steve schmidt, let me bring you in on this. we had a statement released from the newt gingrich campaign. neither gingrich nor ron paul will be giving a speech tonight. gingrich's speech begins, to defeat president obama, they can't rely on votes 7-1. they have tried to make an asset for themz by the fact that mitt romney has gotten victories like

this such as illinois. do you think that matters the cost per vote these guys are spending? >> no, i actually think it's a ridiculous argument, rachel. in 2008, the john mccain campaign was outspent by $250 million. it's almost impossible to win a presidential election when you're talking about that type of fundraising disparate. if mi -- disparity. if mitt romney goes on to become the nominee, they won't have that kind of fund raising at this time. if rick santorum were somehow able to come back and do it, they will be faced with that kind of fundraising disparity, and it's a huge strategic problem if you're on the republican side of the aisle and you want to be a republican president. >> steve schmidt, john horowitz. i think we'll be checking back in with you as the night wears on. we're hearing from rick santorum shortly. we're live covering the results of the illinois primary. nbc news has projected that mitt

romney is the winner of this primary. we'll be looking at some more as the night wears on. right now, rick santorum due to speak. stay with us.

in the illinois republican primary tonight, nbc news has projected mitt romney the winner. mitt romney at 49% of the vote, rick santorum, 33%, ron paul and newt gingrich both in distant third and fourth places in single digits right now. you just heard mitt romney speaking to his supporters in illinois. here's rick santorum addressing his supporters in gettysburg, pennsylvania. here's rick santorum. >> thank you, thank you. it is great to be back in pennsylvania. thank you for joining us. [ applause ] >> let me just thank all of you for being here, and i know they're not going to be able to hear me, but i just feel so bad. we have about 1,000, 1500 people that couldn't get in here. we were just overwhelmed by the response here, and i just want

to say i feel welcomed back home to pennsylvania, so thank you very, very much. [ applause ] >> first i just want to congratulate governor romney. i gave him a call a little earlier and congratulated him on winning the state of illinois, but i also want to just thank all the folks in illinois, all -- if you look at what's going to happen tonight, we're going to win downstate, we're going to win central illinois, we're going to win western illinois. we won the areas that conservatives populate and we're happy about that. we're happy about the delegates we're going to get, too. [ applause ] >> i wanted to come here tonight back to pennsylvania, back to a favorite place of mine in pennsylvania, the city and the town of gettysburg.

[ applause ] >> obviously, so many memories come to mind when we walk here in the town and across the street where abraham lincoln finished the gettysburg address at the wills house. and you think about the great elections of our past, and i've gone around this country over the past year now and said this is the most important election in our lifetimes. in fact, i think it's the most important election since the election of 1860. the election of 1860 was about whether these united states, which is what it was mostly referred to prior to the election of 1860, would become the united states. whether it would be a union, a country bound together to build a great and prosperous nation. a nation built on a concept, a concept that we were birthed with, the concept birthed with our founding document of

independence. i've said throughout the course of this campaign that while other issues are certainly important: the economy, joblessness, national security concerns, the family, the issue of life, all of these issues are important, but the foundational issue in this race, the one that is, in fact, the cause of the other maladies that we are feeling, whether it's in the economy, whether it's in the budget crisis that we're dealing with, it all boils down to one word. and that's what's at stake in this election and it's right behind me on that banner and that's the word freedom. [ applause ] >> i was pleased to hear before i came out that governor romney is now adopting that theme as his speech tonight. i am glad we are moving the debate here in the republican

party. but i've been focused on this because i've actually been out talking to people across this country, doing over 1,000 town hall meetings, and i know the anxiety and the concerns that people have in this country about an ever-expanding government, a government that is trying to dictate how we're going to live our lives, trying to order us around, trample our freedoms, whether it's our economic freedoms or our religious liberty. but in addition to trampling that freedom, in addition they're building a dependency, a dependency on government as we see government expand and grow. now almost half the people in this country depend on some sort of federal payment to help them get -- make ends meet in america. and after and if obamacare is implemented, every single american will depend upon the federal government for something

that is critical, their health and their life. that's why this election is so important. this is an election about fundamental and foundational things. this is an election about not who is the best person to manage washington or manage the economy. we don't need a manager, we need someone that's going to pull up government by the roots and throw it out and do something to liberate the private sector in america. that's what we need. [ applause ] >> it's great to have wall street experience. i don't have wall street experience. but i have experience growing up in a small town in western pennsylvania, growing up in a steel town, growing up in public

housing, in apartments, and seeing how men and women of this country scraped and clawed because they had the opportunity to climb the ladder of success in america. a lot of those folks out there today feel like nobody in washington and no one in this debate is really talking about them. that's why this is a wonderful movement as i travel around this country. and everywhere i go, i see people, people in work clothes, folks with children who are maybe not getting the educational opportunities that they had hoped for so they could climb that ladder of success. people who are looking for someone to voice their concerns about how this economy is going to turn around for them, not just for those at the top of the income ladder. that's why i've talked about a manufacturing plan, an energy plan, someone who believes that if we create opportunities by, yes, cutting taxes but reducing

the oppressive regulatory burden that this administration has put on businesspeople and people who want to drill for energy, you need someone who has got a strong and clear record that can appeal to voters all across this country. and someone who you can trust. someone that you know when they say they're going to do something, they're not saying it because, well, that happens to be the popular theme of the moment, but someone who has a long track record of deep convictions, someone who is going to go out and stand and fight because it n's not just wt the pollster tells them what to say or what's on the teleprompter. i don't happen to have one here tonight. [ applause ]

>> because they know in their gut from their life experiences, from living in america, that this is what america needs and america wants. they want someone who is not going to go to washington, d.c. because they want to be the most powerful person in the world to manage washington. they want someone who is going to take that power and give it back to the people of this country. [ applause ] >> there is one candidate in this race who can go out and make that contrast with the current occupant of the white house. someone who has a track record of being for you, being for limited government, being for solutions that empower people on

the biggest issues of the day, whether it's obamacare, romneycare, they're interchangeable -- [ applause ] >> we need someone who understands that the solution to the problem with almost 1/17 of the economy is not government control over that sector economy but your control over that sector of the economy. [ applause ] >> we need someone who understands that we need to grow our energy supplies here in this country, and we need someone you can trust who, when in good times and bad, when times were tough and people thought, well, all this oil and gas and coal in the ground is all a source of carbon dioxide and we can't take that out of the ground because

there is a finite supply and it could damage our environment and cause global warming. when the climate -- when those who professed manmade global warming and climate science convinced many, many republicans, including two who are running for president on the republican ticket, mitt romney and newt gingrich. but there was one who said, i know this isn't climate science, this is political science. [ applause ] >> and this is another attempt of those who want to take power away from you and control your access to energy, your utilization whether it's in your car or in your home of energy, because they are better to make

these decisions about how you use energy than you do. that's what they believe. and, unfortunately, just like in health care, governor romney and speaker gingrich went along with the ride, and guess what? when the climate changed, they changed their position. and now they're all for drilling and they're all for oil and gas and coal. i was for it because it was the right thing to do then. i'll be for it tomorrow and the next day and the next day. i'm not going to change with the climate. [ applause [ applause ] >> this is the first day, this is the launch that we wanted in pennsylvania, to launch our campaign here in pennsylvania. we got five weeks to a big win and a big delegate sweep for

pennsylvania. [ applause ] >> i come as a son of pennsylvania, someone who grew up in western pennsylvania. everyone knows the story, i hope, of my grandfather and my dad coming to pennsylvania to work in those coal mines in somerset county. i learned everything, everything about freedom and opportunity and hard work from growing up with folks who worked in the mills and the mines in western pennsylvania. so when i speak, and i speak from the heart, in the back of my mind are the pictures of those men and women who worked and scraped and clawed so their children and grandchildren could, yes, have a better quality of life. yes, maybe even go to college and not have to work in tough

manual labor. but most importantly, they fought for the things that people in this battlefield just down the road fought for. they fought for big things, things that america has always stood for, that ronald reagan referred to with that shining city on the hill, the things that i'm fighting for today. the reason karen and i decided, in the face of having seven children ages 20 to 3, it's not exactly the best time to run for president of the united states when you have children 20 to 3, but karen and i felt compelled. we felt compelled because as ronald reagan said in one of his great speeches, we didn't want to have to sit down one day and look at the eyes of our children and our children's children and describe to them an america

where once men were free. we don't want to be that generation that lost the torch of freedom. that's why karen and the kids behind me, all of them born in pennsylvania, all of those folks who understand the greatness of our state and the greatness of the values of this state, all of us understand what was sacrificed in the mills and on the battlefields. and that's why we must go out and fight this fight. that's why we must go out and nominate someone who understands, not because some pollster tells them, because they know in their gut just like you do, all across this country, you know in your gut big things are adrift and at stake in this election. so i ask each and every one of

you to join us, to saddle up like reagan did in the cowboy movies, to saddle up, take on that responsibility over the next five weeks. we're going to head to louisiana from here. we're feeling very, very good about winning louisiana on saturday, i might add. [ applause ] >> we're heading to louisiana for the rest of the week and then we're going to be back here in pennsylvania and we're going to pick up a whole boatload of delegates and close this gap and on to victory. thank you all very much! god bless you! thank you! >> pennsylvania senator rick santorum in his home state in gettysburg, pennsylvania, with

his family and addressing his supporters, coming in second in the illinois primary tonight, explaining he was looking forward to a foive-week campaig and a big win in pennsylvania, saying he felt confident about the prospects of winning in louisiana this coming saturday. the host of andrea mitchell and nbc's andrea mitchell joins us along with steve schmidt, the campaigner for 2008. mitt romney campaigning against obama and obama only, santorum campaigning against mitt romney, almost no mention of barack obama at all. >> i think it says rick santorum is very much an underdog. he has not proved he can win decisively outside the south. illinois was a long shot for

him. he didn't organize well enough to have delegates in all the congressional districts. he lost the chance even in four congressional districts. if he had been more competitive in illinois, that really would have slowed any momentum that mitt romney has. i think romney going into this next part of the calendar, with the exception of louisiana where i don't think he can compete against rick santorum with all the evangelicals he has there, mitt romney has a chance to not seal the deal in terms of the delegate chance but to try to gain that inevitability. >> steve schmidt, listening to mr. santorum tonight attacking mitt romney as a manager who does what he is told, who has no core, does what the political climate tells him to believe, is he building a bain-centered campaign? >> i think one of the things you

heard rick santorum talk about tonight which i think is intended to insulate him from calls to get out of the race or to accept aside is that he's looking forward to the pennsylvania primary five weeks from now. giving no indication that he's planning to get out of the race. the gloves are off. he's going to continue to make a tough case, he's going to continue to mike an idealogical case attacking mitt romney from his right. his strategy is to deny mitt romney the number of delegates he needs to be nominated under the hope that rick santorum in his mind the more conservative of the two can come up with a strategy at the convention if there's not enough delegates to nominate. >> nbc's andrea mitchell and steve schmidt, strategists for the campaign of 2008. thank you both for your time tonight. we'll be right back.

in the illinois republican primary tonight, projections say that mitt romney has won. mitt romney below the total vote with 48%, rick santorum with 35, ron paul and newt gingrich both in single digits. we've heard from mitt romney and rick santorum tonight. we don't expect to hear from either mr. paul or mr. gingrich. neither of them is planning on giving a speech. it's interesting, though, mitt romney putting bain capital, his experience at bain right in the center of his campaign. rick santorum not apparently working from notes, certainly not working from a teleprompter, coming right back at mitt romney

saying a teleprompter coming right back out. mitt romney saying america does not need a manager in washington, d.c. we need someone to pull up by the roots and throw it out in case the contrast wasn't clear enough. nbc's coverage of the republican presidential primaries continues now with lawrence o'donnell on the last word. good evening, mr. o'donnell. >> hey, rachel. we heard a lot from the rick santorum and mitt romney but those guys took up all of your time. i've got an empty chair over here. why don't you run across the hall. i'm sitting here all alone. >> it will take me like 27 seconds. okay, bye, thanks. >> nbc news projects mitt romney will win is the illinois primary. after his campaign and his super pac outspent rick santorum by a 7-1 margin. that includes santorum's super pac spending. mitt romney will not win all 54 delegates. they will be split among the 18

congressional districts and among the winners. the ma jorts of voters also said the committee was the most important issue in this race. and tonight, mitt romney used his victory speech top of attack president obama's policies. >> many of us believe we were in danger of losing something even more than the an value of our homes and our 401(k)s after years of too many apologies and not enough jobs, historic drops in income and historic highs in gas prices. a president who doesn't hesitate to use all the means necessary to force through obama care on the american public but leads from behind in the world. it's time to say these words. this word. enough. we've had enough. >> for 25 years, i lived and breathed business and the economy and jobs. i had successes. and failures. but each step of the way, i

learned a little bit more about what it is that makes our american system so powerful. you can't learn that teaching constitutional law at university of chicago. all right?

he's not going to be the republican nominee. why he's in the race, i don't know. but if you look at the finance reports, not a lot of money. campaigns end when they run out of money. of course, rick santorum is looking at this race trying to come up with a scenario where mitt romney is not able to get the requisite number of delegates to shut it down to become the nominee. if he's successful pushing this into the convention, he thinks he has a chance to walk away at the nominee and maybe he does. >> cluck todd, give us a libts

of the arguments we're going to hear about delegate math. we talk board of directors this a little bit last night. nobody really knows how many delegates these people have at this point. >> we're actually trying to follow -- over allocating caucuses, a lot of other media outlets are doing that because the way the caucuses work on this republican side is a lot different than the democrats do. and most of these dels haven't been elected yet, whether it's colorado, minnesota, for instance, on one hand or washington state which would be one that mitt romney is going to get probably do well at at that state convention. but those conventions are happening in the next couple months. so i go back to the delegate scenario. i'm going to put up my little calendar here and circle one state. i think at this point, rick santorum, we're back to another one of these one-state strategies. he has got beat romney in wisconsin if he has any hopes of creating this scenario of denying him to 1144.

i went through this. if santorum wins wisconsin and demographically, lease an argument he can do it. it's not as urban as an illinois. it's a little more like a north dakota and iowa and minnesota. those states that santorum has done well in. there's an evangelical base there a little bit, could win there. if he does, you start looking at the map. april's not a great month for santorum. but you start demographically looking at may, north carolina shows up in there, indiana shows up, you got nebraska. you got texas. that big chunk of delegates that still have to be awarded at the end of may. if santorum wins wisconsin, i think it's going to make romney getting to 1144 very difficult. probably still better than 50/50 chance. we talked about this last night but it is harder. that's why i say right now it is a one-state strategy for rick santorum. it is about wisconsin. >> rachel, given wisconsin's

recent political history, what impact do you think that will have when they're choosing between what may cement like a hard-core conservati -- may seem like a hard-core conservative and mitt romney? >> it's hard to put scott walker and his travails in wisconsin on any sort of number line between rick santorum and mitt romney. i think that he wanted to be seen as more of a mitt romney and he's been seen as more of a rick santorum. >> republican voters there who in what they've wrought with walker, they kind of go, wait a minute, maybe i want someone who's a little more careful. >> except for the fact that walker has tried to portray himself as a business guy, as a bain capital kind of guy. i'll come in there and be ruthless and i'll win some and lose some but ultimately you'll be happy with me in a technocratic kind of way. nobody has lost more jobs in the country than wisconsin under scott walker.

he came in there saying i'm all about jobs and numbers. he may be a test run for the mitt romney campaign. i got to say, lawrence, listening to chuck do the delegate math and talk about how wisconsin could be so important and then you look at how these states are being run, did you see the ballot today in illinois? i mean, missouri had the cops called in in the county that has the largest number of delegates this weekend. iowa, they changed their results. wyoming randomly reassigned a delegate today. virgin islands, ron paul won but mitt romney got more delegates. if it comes down to who has enough delegates, i'm shenanigan worried. i'm not a person worried about voting shenanigans because the republican process is so nonsensical, if i were any one of these campaigns, if i felt strongly about it, i would be worried about the way the republicans have cocked up all of these states this year. it's a mess.

>> we saw rules change in michigan. michigan republicans allocated another delegate to romney after the results. florida, michael steele continues to contend that those rules are not fair, that they shouldn't have been winner take all. look, if he doesn't get to 1144, the way old credential committees and lawrence, i know i'm beginnigi giving you flashb it's going to be chaos. >> in a universe where there's the potential for this kind of shenanigans in dels, who benefits from that, the team with the best lawyers, the best back room operators? certainly the team that has both of those is going to be benefited over the other, but you know, it also is going to come down to who has the emotional connection if it came down to with the delegates at the detention. these candidates will have to get up and give a speech, the speech of their lives. all of the preplanned showbiz

aspects of the convention where you're trying to drive a message, trying to connect with the american people will be totally out the window. it will be total chaos. it's anyone's guess what will happen. there's absolutely no modern precedent for it. >> chuck todd, steve schmidt and rachel maddow. thank you all for joining me tonight. >> thanks. >> coming up, ryan 2.0. the ryan plan is back doing just as much damage to medicare as the first ryan plan. and cutting taxes even more crazily for the rich. and, of course, all the while, adding to the budget deficit and giving a political gift to the obama re-election campaign. we'll do a quick review of that before digging deeper into the killing of trayvon martin. we will bring you all the new developments of the day. you'll hear a new portion of the 911 tape that may be more revealing than everything else on those tapes.

hypothetically speaking, at the end of the day, has your husband ever come home and said to you, oh, that john boehner, what an idiot?

>> it is -- has never happened. never, never. he is always upbeat, particularly about congress. >> yeah, well, how can you not be upbeat? >> the obama re-election campaign has plenty to be upbeat about today. thanks to the return of paul ryan. >> one year ago, we offered our path to prosperity and this year, we are offering again our path to prosperity. >> republican house budget committee chairman paul ryan chose today to release the ryan plan 2.0. like last year's ryan plan, it an polishes medicare and replaces it with a lower cost voucher system that will leave senior citizens literally fearing for their lives. after his voucher plan was denounced last year, ryan is now trying the proven political strategy of simply lying about it this year. he thinks using the phrase

premium support already fool people into thinking we're not talking about vouchers anymore. and if you think mitt romney is older and wiser since he embraced the first ryan plan, think again. >> i'm very supportive of the ryan budget plan. i think it's a bold and exciting effort on his part and the part of the republican.s. and it's very much consistent with what i put out earlier. of this budget deals with a tax policy which is very similar to the one i put out. and efforts to reign in excessive spending. i applaud it. it's an excellent piece of work and very much needed. >> romney applauds it, of course, because the plan also includes a massive tax cut for the rich and removes progressivity in the tax code by reducing the code to simply two income tax rates. 10% and 25%. without even specifying at what

income levels those two rates apply. that's the kind of thing that makes the new ryan plan an empty suit compared even to the old ryan plan. and it makes the ryan plan a purely political document. which the obama re-election campaign now believes is its key to victory. joining me now is aol "huffington post" editorial director and anlis howard fineman. there's a thing i don't get here. mitt romney has won illinois. he's way ahead in delegates. he it's not clear what can stop him from getting this nomination right now. why would he embrace the politically deadly ryan plan, the plan that pretty much sinks the republican nominee in florida? >> i think it's because he's still in primary season mode, lawrence. yes, he won illinois and i agree with you, i think mitt romney

has shown ruthless efficiency here and spending the money to pile up the ads to get the dels to get close to if not over 1,144 as you were discussing in your last segment. but he's still got rick santorum attacking him from the right and newt gingrich attacking him from the right and ron paul still out there as an asterisk. he's got some tough primaries coming up. if you listen carefully, yeah, he said he liked the plan. he said he superiors it or whatever. maybe that will hang him. but i think he said it was bold. i mean, he used a lot of adjectives in there. i would expect that if mitt romney, if mitt romney wraps up the nomination, that you will see him dancing away at least to some extent from ryan and company as fast as he can. >> i want to listen to something that paul ryan said today at his press conference where he pretty much pushed this plan right into the presidential campaign. let's listen to that.

>> our nominee owes it to the country to give them a choice of two futures. we're helping them do that. each of these people running for president have all given their various ideas of reform are perfectly consistent. >> and you wholeheartedly believe they will accept your budget in november? >> absolutely. >> howard, for a party that at this point doesn't know who the no knee may be since even with romney's wins they may go into the convention without him having all the dels he needs 0 lock it up, ryan, i don't know. there's something funny about this, about trying to stick this in here. does he think this might be his ticket onto the ticket in a number two spot or to get his name thrown around even more as a possibility in a brokered convention? >> i suppose you could argue in i away that the negotiating in an open convention has already begun. first of all, mitch daniels was on "hardball" last week, the governor of indiana was on "hardball" last week with chris matthews and boy did he sound like he wanted to be drafted.

he's got a new book out. he says look, the candidates are not being specific. the candidates are being timid. i mitch daniels am being bold. i'm out there. paul ryan did the same thing today as you said, during the illinois primary. he chose to do this. and in advance of the wisconsin primary coming up, by the way, which is his home territory. and i think paul ryan considers himself a national player either to define the conversation or to be on the ticket, as well. interesting contrast between the candidates who are running who are often very vague and the sort of why don't you draft me people like mitch daniels and paul ryan who are trying to say hey, we're the brask specific ones. >> paul ryan has to hate life in the house of representatives by now. he's gotten as high as he's going to get and can look forward to another 30 years as chairman of the budget committee or maybe getting on the romney ticket. does he solve romney's problems if he's the number two choice? >> well, perhaps.

paul ryan -- by the way, you were speaking as a former senate staffer there so your disdain for the house was showing. but no, paul ryan is a darling of the conservative base of the republican party. he's one of the most respected figures, well liked figures. he's an articulate guy. many of us may disagree with his plan that's controversial at the very least. obama campaign can't wait to run against it, but at the base of the republican party, they like the plan and they like paul ryan. so i'm sure he would be short listed by anybody who gets the nomination especially mitt romney. >> howard, i'm going to close with this. as to senate superiority complexes, no one ever sees a senator quit the senate to run for the house of representatives. they are not welcoming a lot of senators down the ladder to the house. howard fineman, thank you very much for joining me tonight. >> thank you. >> coming up, the justice department and fbi are now looking into the case of trayvon

martin. they started, they announced that just minutes after this program last night, had a federal prosecutor on showing them the way to a federal prosecution in that case. case of trayvon martin who was shot by a man who still, still in florida has the right to carry a gun under florida law. you'll hear that man's voice, the man who did the shooting on a new 911 tape tonight and you will have to be the judge of exactly what he says. that's next.

there's an important new witness today in the killing of trayvon martin. it was revealed today that when trayvon martin was being followed by the man who was going to kill him, trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend, explaining exactly what was happening to him every step of the way. one of the lawyers for trayvon's family will join me next. you'll hear a new portion of the 911 tape and what i heard george zimmerman say on that tape and what trayvon says he heard him say on that tape could be shocking evidence of a hate crime. we're going to play the tape. you will listen to it. you will be the judge of what the words are that george zimmerman uses on that tape. that's coming up.

that's coming up.

>> she says is, trayvon, she hears trayvon say, why are you following me? and that's when she says she hears another voice saying what you are doing around here? and, again, trayvon says why you are following me?

and that's when she says, again, he said what are you doing around here? and she says trayvon was pushed. the reason she concludes he is pushed is because she says his voice kind of changes like something interrupted his speech. >> that was benjamin crump, the head attorney for the family of trayvon martin revealing today the latest developments in the case. it turns out that trayvon martin was on his cell phone with his girlfriend while he was being pursued by george zimmerman. joining me now, congress rancor reen brown, democrat of florida where this incident happened and jasmine rand, one of the martin family's attorneys and an adjunct professor for the florida a&m university. attorney rand, what is the importance of this new development with this ear witness? she didn't see anything but she heard everything through her cell phone, everything that was

happening to trayvon. >> i think the importance of this new witness is that it's corroborative testimony. in the law it's very important that you have your witness corroborating. she says what every other witness has said that trayvon was not the aggressor and that zimmerman was pursuing trayvon. >> congresswoman brown, you were on the show last night and had a meeting with the justice department today. how did that go? >> i think it went very well. we met with the mayor of sanford and the city manager and the justice department for over an hour. and i got the feeling that we are moving in the right direction. it was very important to get the justice department involved along with the state and local because basically, i don't feel up to this point that everything has been handled the way it should have been handled. >> well, a lot of things haven't been done by the local police, including talking to witnesses. there's another witness i want to listen to now on the orlando

sentinel website. this is where this videotape comes from. they have this interview of a 13-year-old boy who did witness part of this event. let's watch this and listen to this. >> i heard screaming when i walked outside. so i went to where i heard it, and it was behind about 20 to 25 yards from behind my house. and i looked and i saw someone laying on the ground. and i heard someone yelling for help. and then my dog, he got off the leash and i went to go grab him. and then when i grabbed my dog, i heard a shot. and right when i heard the shot, the screaming stopped. so i went inside and i told my sister and she called 911.

the police arrived, and i later found out that the person who got shot died. i think -- i think about what if i would have went over there, if the person still would have got shot. no, i just think that sometimes people get stereotyped and i fit into this stereotype as the person who got shot. >> congresswoman brown, there's a 13-year-old constituent of yours who is thinking tonight, what could i have done? maybe if i went over the there, maybe the shooting wouldn't have the happened. he's also worried tonight that he fits the stereotype of the kind of person that george zimmerman was looking for. >> well, clearly, it's just very dangerous, very endangered

species of black male walking on the sidewalk. now, this is america. and we're better than this. and we've got to do better. and this is not acceptable. clearly, he was profiled. and how this case has been handled has got to be a teaching moment for us. we've got to learn from this and we've got to the put procedures in place that we are all comfortable that this is not going to happen again. >> i want us all in the audience especially to listen to this new portion of the 911 tape that was revealed today. most people have heard the rest of this tape. but i want to give the audience a heads-up. it gets profane. george zimmerman uses the f word very clearly. there's absolutely no dispute about that. he says iffin'. it's the word after that. and the network has kind of bleeped out the word f'ing so

it's a little bit hard to hear the flow into the next word. the next word is the word at issue here. this is the part of the transcript where the dispatcher is going to say okay, what entrance is it that he's heading towards. zimmerman says the back entrance. then there's a paws and f'ing and then there's a word. he's calling trayvon this word. i want everyone to listen to it. we'll play it more than once. i want everyone to make their own judgment what they're hearing. listen to that tape now. >> okay, which entrance is that that he's heading towards? >> the back entrance. [ bleep ]. >> are you following him? >> yeah. >> okay, we don't need you to do that. >> all right. i just want to let the audience hear it one more time. i've listened to it a few times. the first time i heard it, i recognized the second word easily. i want to let the audience hear

it one more time and then we'll talk about it. >> okay, which entrance is that that he's heading towards. >> the back entrance. [ bleep ]. >> are you following him? >> yeah. >> okay, we don't need you to do that. >> jasmine, what are you hearing him say? >> i hear him saying f'ing coo ns. >> congresswoman brown. >> i didn't hear what he said but what i heard was that the dispatcher told him to stand down. we don't need you to follow him. they're on the way. that's what i heard. there was no reason for him to engage this young man whatsoever. he clearly was the aggressor. >> attorney rand, i heard what you heard. i heard it repeatedly. i've played it repeatedly. there are people who are saying when they hear this they hear the word punks. i know people are saying that

with honesty. i think to some extent it depends on what computer you're listening to it on, but let's get to your interpretation of it. legally. those two words, theage -- the f'ing and then saying the word that you've attributed to george zimmerman, it seems to me constitutes obvious evidence of hateful intent. this is a racial slur that you're hearing him say. minutes, seconds possibly before he shoots a black teenager to death for having done absolutely nothing. >> well, i mean, think as you said, the racial overtones to me couldn't be ignored to begin with. certainly after i went back and analyzed what i heard too, i didn't hear it the first time but i went back and listened to

it several times now and that's what i hear. i think that the racial overtones are prevalent throughout this entire case. beginning with some statements that the neighborhood has made which are significant to me and what a lot of the neighbors have said, yes, that's what we do, we look for young black men to be criminals on this property. that's exactly what george zimmerman did that night. trayvon was not a criminal. he was a kid walking home from a convenience store with a pack of skittles and an iced tea. what george zimmerman did was identify him as a young black male who he believed was suspicious because of his skin color and followed him to see whether or not he was going to commit any type of criminal activity. i think you know, zimmerman's language, the f'ing coo ns is what i heard. he also reefed to trayvon or said that these a holes always get away. and he identified trayvon as black twice in that video. so to me, you know that last bit

what i hear f'ing coo ns is very significant and we think no longer ignore that this was a racially motivated crime. >> congresswoman brown, i've studied police cover-ups in the past and when i heard that tape today and when i interpreted it the way attorney rand interpreted it, i believe that what we have here is evidence of a police cover-up. this is not conclusive legal proof of a police cover-up, but this is evidence that the police, that local police department never wanted anyone to hear those two words. and that's why we haven't heard those two words until today. >> well, one of the things i wanted was to release the tapes so that you could hear it. and i also wanted the justice department to come in so we could get an independent review of what has happened from step by step. and that is what has happened.

the fact that you see those tapes and you can hear those tapes and they're out there so you can analyze those tapes was very important to me. >> congresswoman corinne brown and attorney jasmine rand, i'm sure we'll have you both back. thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> coming up, we'll have more on the killing of trayvon martin. and the florida law that the shooter has been hiding behind.

now that the heat is on this case in florida, we know more every day about what happened the night trayvon martin was kid. with the fbi and state investigators now on the case, we will soon see just how long florida's stand your ground law can protect the man who shot trayvon martin. that's next.

he had no intention of getting back in his truck, doing what the police instructed him to do. he kept pursuing trayvon martin and how do we know? because this young lady connects the dots. she connects the dots. she completely blows zimmerman absurd self, defense claim out of the water. >> that's the attorney for the family of trayvon martin today talking about the new witness revealed in the case. joining me now is the executive

director of the florida coalition to stop gun violence. arthur haho. i read quotes of yours the other day where you predicted exactly this when the florida legislature was considering this law. >> yes, that's right. you know, we're delighted with the dialogue that's been started about this horrible law. in fact, there's been more dialogue in the last few days than i've been able to create if the last seven years. but you know, we've been at it from the start and we're going to keep at it. our goal is to repeal this law. >> i want to put up a map for our audience of all the other states that have some version of your stand your ground law, florida was the very first. >> yes. >> and look at the con teenage sxwron and t -- contagion and the way it has spread across this country. there are lives as the risk in every one of these states, republican controlled legislatures for the most part

doing this. >> we're in contact with the gun control organizations in the states. they're having the same trouble with those laws that we're having here. >> was there much opposition to this in the legislature? did the democrats just fold as this thing was coming because they were afraid of being considered soft on crime? >> unfortunately, yes. >> and what has been the experience with it in the state? is anyone tracking each one of these incidents with the racial makeup of the shooters versus the victims of the shootings? >> not in that detail, but we've been cataloging the shootings since 2005 and we've gone through over 100 now, and the pattern is there. when there are no witnesses, they're dismissed. when there are witnesses it goes to trial. usually for manslaughter. so i have -- i have at at least a dozen cases on my desk back in florida of exactly the same kind

of shootings. almost identical. and they were all dismissed because there were no witnesses. >> we're rejoined now by jasmine rand, one of the attorneys for trayvon martin's family. attorney rand, do you think we are now past the problem in this case of this crazy self-defense law in florida? has the case moved beyond the hurdle that that represents? >> i mean, i think we were past the self-defense claim way before this. you know, i would hope with the new testimony of the young lady today we have pieced together the final moments of his life now. it's clear that in the final moments, zimmerman was still the aggressor and trayvon was still the victim trying to get away from him. so you know, in my opinion, yes, we're away from it. no, that doesn't mean we're in the clear because it's not up to me. >> and do you expect attorney rand, for the state

investigationing to take precedence over the federal investigation? is it your understanding from what you've been hearing that the justice department will do some looking around but basically hold back to see what the state does first? >> i have not been directly in contact with the justice department. did i meet with the state attorney's office yesterday. and the state attorney told me when i asked him how the investigation, the chief of police for sanford performed was, he told me that the investigation was reasonable and needed great supplementation. the words i asked was whether or not it was fair and thorough. he was not willing to use those words. he would only use reasonable. >> i want to bring karen finney into the discussion joining us from washington, msnbc analyst, karen finney. i apologize, you were supposed to come on and talk about some politics. >> that's okay. >> i didn't want to leave this subject. i want to stay with this for the rest of the show. karen, mitt romney was asked about this on the campaign trail today. jay carney was asked about it at

the white house news conference today. are we going to see this case find its way into presidential politics? >> it certainly could. i think we don't yet note based on how this case continues to shake out. obviously, there are legal issues that are relevant. there are gun law issues that are relevant. but you know the other thing i think for me what this case brings us is if you are an african-american in particular, and i speak from my own experience, i want people to look at this case and understand why the idea of racial profiling is so terrifying. because that's what happened in this case. when people let their biases and bigotry and stereotypes get the better of their judgment, this is the kind of thing that can happen. this is why in those immigration laws that we're seeing, there are very serious concerns being raised. this is why when you have you know, rick santorum on the campaign trail saying i don't want to make black or blah people's lives easier. or you have gingrich talking

about habits of black people and the food stamp president, these are all the kinds of stereotypes and bigotry that only gets furthered. >> we're going to take a break here. arthur, jasmine and karen please stay with us. i want to put up on the screen before we go that map of the united states again where this stand your ground so-called self-defense law exists. people should be studying this map. this is where you are at risk of having what happened to you, what happened to trayvon martin in florida, especially, especially if you are a black man in america. we're going to be back with more on the trayvon martin case after this break.

and would your justice department get involved in the

trayvon martin case. >> good to see you, thank you. >> there's mitt romney literally walking away from the trayvon martin case. back with me now, karen finney, jasmine rand and arthur hayhoe. i want us all to take a look at this video i'm about to show about a beating of a homeless man in florida. the interesting thing about this case is this crime scene was supervised by the very same officer who supervised the scene of the noninvestigation of the killing of trayvon martin. let's look at this video of what happens to this homeless man. >> whoa! >> 21-year-old justin collison is the son of a sanford florida police officer and was never charged. the man he struck first who was homeless had to be hospitalized. >> now, jasmine rand, that video has been making the rounds now in florida because the interesting thing is that that

crime scene was supervised by the same officer who supervised the scene of the killing of trayvon martin. and he did not move for any charges against the person who we saw do that in that video. >> right, and i actually got a call from my office while we were on break, and there's something in the story that we need to correct. my office has been analyzing the tapes even as i've been on air and i know that the version that we heard tonight it appears that the words f'ing, the terms f'ing coo n why used but the official version we have from the police department you don't hear those explatives. so where the version stating f'ing coo ns came from, we don't know. at this time, until we can verify that that is an original copy from the sanford police department, the family cannot stand by those terms because we don't know where that version came from. >> that's important.

so just so we understand, the version that you've heard or your office has heard from the police department, the official version doesn't have a blank there, does it have something inaudible? >> i don't believe that it has a blank there. i can't recall exactly from memory, but you know, as i stated earlier, the first couple times i didn't hear or notice that. i have heard versions since then where i do hear that. we went back and analyzed the original version that we received from the sanford police department and it does appear to us that based upon the original version that our office received that those expletives were included there. i can't say where that federation where we can clearly hear those expletives there came from. >> that version came from a local television station in florida and that's what we've been using with it. that's all the time we have for this tonight. i want to thank karen finney, attorney jasmine and auger,

thank you very much for joining me tonight. we do have results of course from illinois. tonight is the illinois republican primary. as ed just told you polls closed about an hour ago. msnbc news is declaring that mitt romney has won the state of illinois. mitt rom neat projected winner that state. the latest results we've got right now are 19% in. mitt romney with 54% of the vote. again only 19% in right now. this is enough to project mr. romney as the winner but we'll be watching those percentage and the rankings of the other candidates as the percent of the vote tonight increases and this is very exciting. this is election night. republicans from the great state of illinois making big, consequential decisions on whether to punch their ballot for newt gingrich, mitt romney, rick santorum, ron paul theoretically that's what's going on tonight but actually

that's not way it has worked at all. have you seen the ballot? have you seen what the ballot looks like the republicans were using today in illinois? it's different in every county but this is representative. let's put up the macon county ballot. if you're going vote in illinois, if you want mitt romney to be president, you can i understand indicate that mitt romney is your preference for president of the united states right here on this part of the ballot. whether or not you do that, doesn't really mean anything. it doesn't get totalled for any official purpose. we will tell you tonight what the final results are. that's essentially as important as it is, that's the end of it. those results don't go toward any other purpose. if you want to commit an act of furtherance toward mitt romney getting the nomination for republican party for president, it does not matter whether or not you voted for mitt romney today in illinois.

i know that sounds counterintuitive but it's true. what you have to do, if you want to help mitt romney become the republican party's nominee for president is today in illinois, you would have had to vote for habib habib and jan miller and david newberg. gresham and leotold and mitchell. those of the votes that you would have to cast today to get romney's candidate for president. it does not matter who you vote for for president. it matters which individual delegates you vote for and who they stand for. let's say you do like mitt romney or you hate one of these other people, right you? can't bring yourself to vote for one of these delegates because you had a dispute over the height of a fence. put up near one of your child's ballpark or something. i don't know. you have some random personal dispute with one of the

delegates. you do not have to vote for that delegate. you can pick all of the other people that are listed but not the guy you don't like. let's say maybe you're other delegate choice is jim hendrix. this is all hypothetical. he's for newt gingrich. you know this guy is a really nice guy even hope to you're not for newt gingrich. that's okay. you can pick him as a delegate. if you did that, how would your vote be counted? should that be seen as a vote mostly mitt romney but a little for newt gingrich because you picked a newt gingrich delegation in addition to all of your mitt romney votes? your expression of what you want to happen in the nomination for president as rooted through all these other people you have to choose today who have some relationship eventually to whom might be nom nate for president, it is kind of an esoteric thing voting in illinois today. here's my favorite part, though, macon county is in one of the four congressional districts in illinois, where your ballot is a little bit different. there's a whole swath of illinois that has a different ballot in one very important way.

say you live in macon county and you're in the a mitt romney fan. let's say you're a rick santorum fan. you want rick santorum to be president. for that reason it probably felt awesome to you when you went out in macon county today and you made your mark. you punched that ballot thing. for the president of the united states, your vote for the republican party presidential nomination is for rick santorum. he's your guy. in some place like macon county, that means nothing at all. nothing at all. you have made yourself by feeling good. you stated your preference and nbc and the other news agencies will report how many people felt that feeling, but if you don't just want to feel like you're president, if you turned out to vote because you want to secure the gnome nation, your were out of luck. there's nothing you could do on your ballot.

even though you can express that you want him to be your party's nominee, there are no delegates to vote for that have rick santorum's name next to them. in macon county and other parts of the state you can see the macon county ballot. three alternates for mitt romney. and three alternates. three for ron paul, three alternates. three guys for gingrich and three alternates. there's no way that your vote mattered if you're santorum supporter. even in some counties where rick santorum did get some delegates on the ballot he didn't get enough of them. clark county from the indiana border. everyone has a first slate of full-term candidates. each candidate is supposed to have four. ron paul only has two. rick santorum only has one. what are you going to do if those are your candidates? you're going to split your delegates around. how should the rest of us interpret the importance of what you do? if you're a republican voting in illinois today, you were quite

within your rights to vote for say, buddy roemer for president and then to vote for one delegate from each of the four campaigns for delegates. a gingrich delegate. alternate delegate. you could have vote tad way. but what weather we figured out illinois, what illinois wants, how should a vote like that be considered? as i mentioned at the top, nbc news has now declared mitt rom neat projected winner of illinois. that means that he has been chosen by people who expressed a nonbinding preference unrelated to delegates, right, in terms of who ought to win the republican party's nomination from illinois. ultimately what will mostly have been achieved in illinois is steeply heightened cynicism is whether the republican nominated contest is understandable. whether the results reflect the

will of the voters who make the membership of the party. that will be one result tonight. heightened scepticism about that. probably sold a lot of ant-acid today. the other result is for voters trying to figure out a ballot that looks like this. you turn out today thinking all i want to do is vote for ron paul, aim and shoot. at this point with a ballot this complicated, what are you going to do? macon county is one of the counties where the ballot didn't fit into the tallying machine. the ballot was too wide and they could not be put through the machines. in more than two dozen counties and thereforing not be put through the machines. good luck tries to vote on this puppy, right, without any mechanical assistance, right? just aim to which you will. the illinois republican primary is impenetrable, frankly. and i willil, illinois is one of the good once. this was one of the bad ones this week. [ boo ] [ bleep ] [ boo ]

officer, that's illegal. that's illegal! >> this is what happened in the previous republican presidential contest this week. this was a republican caucus in the great state of missouri this past weekend. kind of makes illinois look great today, doesn't it? i know what you are thinking, missouri, i thought missouri voted weeks ago, sort of. republicans there to hold a primary on february 7th because that would earn them a punishment from the republican party. they tried to change the date until later. they couldn't get it together to change that state law despite controlling the entire legislature. they decided to spend $7 million taxpayer dollars holding that primary as required by state law on february 7th, even though the primary did not count for

anything. rick santorum was very proud to have won that missouri contest. he went to the republican stronghold of st. charles county. he gave them a big speech thanking for the fake win that meant nothing. this is what it looked like in that same st. charles county. >> remove the chair. remove the chair. remove the chair. remove the chair. remove the chair. >> st. charles, missouri, is just outside of st. louis. it's a republican stronghold in the state, so much so this county has more delegates to allocate than any other place in the whole state but they have so far allocated none. because their process was this. their process was shut down by police over the weekend before, i guess, they thought it was going to turn into a riot. st. charles county, republicans, called the police and had them shut down their caucus

without voting on any delegates. one republican official told the "st. louis dispatch" saying i don't know what's going to happen because i don't think this has happened before. another local republican said i think we embarrassed the party. remember, this is the place that has the most delegates that there are to give in that entire state. this was the state's republican stronghold. missouri republicans can't even figure out how they're going to figure it out. they can't figure out how to reschedule this caucus and how delegates will be allocated and please stop asking. thank you very much. it wasn't just st. charles county where the republicans unravelled. this was the seen in clay county over on the other side of the state. >> the chaos inside the caucus started before the pledge of allegiance. >> sir, have a seat. >> ron paul supporters tried to take control by electing their own chairman and ousting the clay county gop leader. he sometimes lost control of the meeting and threatened to have

people thrown out. >> that's enough! that's your last warning. >> clay county, missouri, did eventually through that process pick some delegates. the chaos among missouri is not over yet. they are expected to go on for weeks. this is just what it's like in the republican contest. there have been crazy caucuses in presidential campaigns in the past but there has never been this much chaos in state after state after state in modern times. from the iowa caucus results being reversed to maine republican republicans announcing before a swath been reported. this has been an absolute mess. remember when you read that wyoming voted back this february. they have still only allocated half their delegates. today they decided to take one of the rick santorum delegates away and give it to mitt romney instead. why?

i can't tell you, no idea. i sprained something trying to figure it out. i still don't understand how ron paul won the u.s. virgin islands' vote. ron paul won. . he got most votes. ron paul got 29% of the vote in the virgin islands. despite ron paul having won the vote in the u.s. virgin islands it was mitt romney who was given 7 of the 9 delegates there. so, illinois tonight, huge deal? maybe. we can tell you at this hour with the latest results are of the nonbinding, nondelegated expression. and that is that nbc projects that mitt romney has won the state of illinois. at point the total number of the percentage vote is in. at this point the total number percentage of the vote in is 27% of the vote. rick santorum with 30% of the vote. the closer you look at this thing, i have to say on a night look this looking at ballots

like those, looking at delegate allocation it does sort of give you a little sympathy for people in the campaigns who say frankly, if you're only reading the headlines here, you don't have any idea how this race is going. people who think have a shot might not and people who think might not have a shot might. it's possible that none of us know what's going on in delegates are the real game. i don't think the republican party has any idea either. coming up it's john harwood of "new york times." mitt romney and rick santorum are expected to speak shortly to their supporters. now that mr. romney has been projected the winner in illinois tonight. we're going to bring it to you. live. stay with us.

we're looking at a live picture here of mitt romney and his wife anne romney speaking to their supporters in sham burg

illinois, which is west of chicago. mr. romney has been projected the winner of tonight's republican primary in the great state of illinois. the polls closed at 8:00. it was not yet 9:00, not even an hour been nbc news was able to project that result tonight. usually as these things go in terms of election night speeches, mrs. romney will do sort of the heavy lifting, in terms of thanking the state-based volunteers and staff for the campaign, as well as some of the national staffers. she will go through and name all of the names. and then mr. romney will step up to the podium and make a prepared speech. i should also let you know that as mr. romney is about to start speaking here to his supporters, we are also expecting rick santorum to be addressing his supporters tonight as well mr. santorum obviously not giving a victory speech, but if past is any prolog, we can expect mr. santorum to be focusing on the next campaign, the next contest that is, which of course is this upcoming saturday in louisiana.

right now, the polling heading into louisiana, actually shows mr. santorum having a good chance there. mr. romney has not fared well so far in deep south contests, and the next one of those whether it's going to be good news for mr. gingrich or more likely good news for mr. santorum is likely to be louisiana. as we're waiting for mr. rom flee to take the podium right now, we're joined briefly by john mar wood who is cnbc's chief washington correspondent and a political writer for "the new york times" and also steve schmit is with us. kpachb 2008 and political analyst for msnbc. john and steve action we wait for mr. romney's remarks tonight, thanks for being with us. >> you bet. >> you bet. >> steve, in terms of the candidates' role on a night like this an easily and expected win for mr. romney, is this an opportunity just to make a nationally televised address, what should he be aiming for. >> these tuesday nights are so important when the candidates, rachel, have an opportunity to get out there, to talk to millions of americans across a

multinetwork platform to deliver their message, to setup the race ahead. so we've seen these candidates have some good nights where they have hit the mark on these speeches and other nights where they've been out of it so every tuesday's a big night. we'll see how he does tonight. >> steve, thank you. you and john, if you could both stick with us, i would love to get your comments on mr. romney's remarks with he's done. and now joining mitt romney live addressing his supporters in schaumburg, illinois tonight. >> -- in this room and across illinois. what a night. thank you, illinois. what a night. and, of course, i'd like to congratulate my fellow candidates on a hard-fought contest here. i'd like to thank volunteers and our friends across the state. i appreciate their unwavering support through good times and

bad. and tonight, we thank the people of illinois for their vote and for this extraordinary victory. thank you so much. and you know, elections are about choices. and today, hundreds of thousands of people in illinois have joined millions of people across the country to join our cause. this movement began on a small farm in new hampshire on a sunny june day. we were surrounded by a small group of some friends and some supporters and some family. we shared a conviction that the america we loved was in trouble and adrift without strong leadership. and three years of barack obama have brought us fewer jobs and shrinking paychecks that many of

us believe we were in danger of losing something more than the values out of our homes and 401(k)s after years of many apologies and not enough jobs, history drops in income and history, highs in gas prices. a president who doesn't hesitate to use the means necessary to force through obama care on the public be leads from behind in the world. it's time to say these words, this word, enough. we've had enough. we know our future. we know our future is brighter than these troubled times. we still believe in america. we deserve a president who believes in us. i believe in the american people. you know that yesterday i was giving speech at the university

of chicago. not very far from here, not very far from where professor barack obama taught law. it was a speech on economic freedom and as i was writing the speech i thought to my lifetime of experiences. i've had a lot of opportunity to learn about the unique genius of america's free enterprise system. it started of course with my dad. he didn't graduate from college and he would tell me about his dad who was a contractor. you know about construction, up and down years. he never quite made it, but he never gave up and raised great kids. later, i helped start companies. and those began with just an idea. and somehow they made it through the difficult times and were able to create a good return for investors and thousands of jobs and those jobs helped families buy their first homes. those jobs put kids through school.

those jobs helped people live better lives, dream a little bigger. for 25 years i lived and breathed business and the economy and jobs. i had successes and failures. but each step of the way i learned a bit more about what it is that makes our american system so powerful. you can't learn that teaching constitution law at university of chicago, all right? [ cheers and applause ] you can't even learn that as a community organizer. the simple truth is that this president doesn't understand the genius of america's economy or the secret of the american economic success story. the american economy is fueled by freedom. [ cheers and applause ]

the history of the world has shown that economic freedom is the only force that's consistently listed people out of poverty. it's the only principle that has been able to sustain prosperity. but over the last three years this administration has been engaged in an all-out assault on our freedom. under this president, bureaucrats prevent drilling rigs from going out into the gulf. keep coal from being mined. they impede the supply of natural gas and even tell farmers what their kids are able to do on their farms. this administration's assault on freedom has kept this so-called recovery for meeting their projections, let alone our expectations. and now, by the way, the president is trying to erase his record with some new rhetoric. the other day he said this. he said, we're inventors, we are

builders. we are makers of things. we are thomas edson. we're the write brothers. we're bill gates. we're still jobs. wait i missed that. we are steve jobs. [ laughter ] that's true. but the problem is he's still barack obama. [ cheers and applause ] [ crowd chanting "rick" ] >> you see under barack obama those pioneers he mentioned would have faced a very difficult time trying to innovate and invent and invest and create and build jobs. you see under dodd-frank, they would have thought it almost impossible to get a loan from their community bank. and of course, the regulators would have shut down the write brothers for dust pollution. [ laughter ]

you know? and of course the government would have banned thomas edson's light bulb. oh, by the way, they just did, didn't they? yeah, right. [ applause ] now you know that the real cost of these misguided policies, these attacks on economic freedom, this intrusion of the government into our freedom, the cost of that are the ideas that are not pursued and the dreams that aren't realized, and therefore, all of the little businesses that don't get started and the tens of thousands and the hundreds of thousands of workers who don't get hired. the american dream has met opportunity to build something new. some of america's greatest success stories are people who started out with nothing but a

good idea and a corner in their garage. but too often today americans who want to start a new business or launch a new venture, they don't see promise and opportunity. they see government standing in the way. i'm going to change that. we're going to get government out of the way. we once built an interstate highway system and the hoover dam. now we can't even build a pipeline. we once led the world in manufacturing and exports, investment. today we lead the world in lawsuits. when we replace a law professor with a conservative businessman as president, that's going to end. [ applause ]

i think you know this. every great innovation, every world changing business breakthrough begins with a dream and nothing is more fragile than a dream. the genius of america is that we nurture those dreams and the dreamers. we honor them and yes, we reward them. that's part of what's uniquely brilliant about america. but day by day, job-killing regulation by job-killing regulation, bureaucrat by bureaucrat this president is crushing the dream and the dreamers and i will make sure that finally ends. the proof of the president's failure is seeing how tepid this economic recovery is. this administration thinks that the economy's struggling because the stimulus wasn't large enough.

the truth is the economy is struggling because the government is too big. you and i know something the president still hasn't learned even after three years and hundreds of billions of dollars of spending and borrowing. it is not the government who creates our prosperity. the prosperity of america is the product of free markets and free people, and they must be protected and nurtured. [ cheers and applause ] so tonight was a primary, but november is the general election. we're going to face a defining decision as a people. our choice will not be about party or even personality. this election will be about principle. our economic freedom will be on the ballot.

i'm offering a real choice and a new beginning. i'm running for president because i have the experience and the vision to get us out of this mess. we don't -- [ applause ] >> look, we know what barack obama's vision is. we've been living it these last three years. my vision is very, very different than what his is. you see, i see an america where the prospects for our children will be better than even those that we've enjoyed during our lives. that the pursuit of success by all of us will unite us, not divide us. when a government finally understands -- [ cheers and applause ] i finally see a time when we

have a government that understands it's better for more people to pay less in taxes than for a very few to pay a lot more. [ cheers and applause ] i see an america where the values we pass on to our children are greater than the debts we leave them. i see an america where poverty is defeated by opportunity not enabled by a government check. i see an america that is humbled, excuse me, i see an america that is humble, but it is never humble that leads but is never led. i see an america that is so unquestionably strong that no one in the world would ever think of testing the might of our military.

[ cheers and applause ] today we took an important step towards that america. tomorrow we'll take another. each day we move closer not just to victory, but to a better america. join us. join us. together we're going to ensure that america's greatest days are still ahead. thanks you guys. thank you so much, and god bless the united states of america. thank you. >> former massachusetts governor mitt romney addressing his supporters in schaumburg, illinois, tonight having won the illinois primary. nbc projecting mr. romney as the winner in illinois. we are awaiting remarks from senator rick santorum who looks

like in the results that we have is running second in illinois. mr. santorum is not in illinois. he's in his home state of pennsylvania in gettysburg, pennsylvania. it's a very large crowd turned out to see mr. santorum, at compared to what they were expecting. we're told he's already addressed the overflow room in his venue in gettysburg. we'll be speaking from the podium in the main room shortly. we'll bring that to you live. still with us, steve schmidt and "the new york times" and cnbc's john harwood. gentlemen, thank you for 76ing with me. john, in terms of the speech there from mr. romney, i've not been listening to his stump speech every day, but i've been listening closely enough to follow its evolution over time. is this what we should expect in terms of putting bane at the very, very center of what his appeal is for why he should be president?

>> well, i think so. bane in the way that mitt romney wants to explain it is part of a step-by-step education process for him and what makes the american economy tick. i think it was significant, he had some new lines in here. some great republican applause line. he made of law professors and he had a whole rift about his vision for the country. plainly a general election speech. i think there's a reason for this because i think this win even though it was expected is a big deal. i think tonight we found out that rick santorum is simply is not capable of turning over the table in the way that he needs to in order to stop mitt romney of getting this nomination. i think that this primary race, while mitt romney still doesn't have anywhere close to 1,144 delegates is effectively over tonight because rick santorum was not able to move from his victories in the deep south it a victory not a big midwestern state and move through. >> a brief followup on that, john. you fell like if rick santorum

pulls off a large win in louisiana that's not enough to change romney momentum at this point? >> there's not enough states in the deep south for rick santorum to do what he needs to do to deny mitt romney the nomination or win it himself. this is going after louisiana, to maryland, to wisconsin, to a bunch of states. yes, rick santorum's pennsylvania but also new york and connecticut, new jersey, states in the northeast. i think we found out tonight that rick santorum just can't damage mitt romney enough to stop it. >> steve schmidt, let me bring you in on this. i just had a statement released from the newt gingrich campaign. neither mr. gingrich nor ron paul is giving a speech tonight. newt gingrich's speech response begins to defeat, barack obama republicans can't nominate a candidate who relies on outspending his opponents 7-to-1. mr. romney has so wildly out spent his opponents to get victories like this in illinois. do you think that matters tactically, this sort of cost per vote that these guys are spending?

>> no, i think it's a ridiculous argument, rachel. in 2008, the john mccain campaign was outspent by $250 million. it's almost impossible to win a presidential election when you're talking about that type of fund-raising disparity. if mitt romney goes on to be the nominee republicans will not be faced with that type of fund-raising disparity this time. if newt gingrich who won't be the nominee but let's say that he is, if rick santorum able to come back and to do it they will be faced with that type of fund-raising disparity and hoots a huge, strategic problem if you're on the republicans' side of the aisle and if you want to see a republican president. >> steve schmidt, john harwood, thank you gentlemen. i have a feeling checking back in with you as this night wears on. we're expecting to hear from rick santorum shortly. we are live here on msnbc covering the results. nbc has projected the winner is mitt romney. we'll be watching for complete results. right now mitt romney the projected winner. rick santorum due to speak any

moment. stay with us.

in the illinois republican primary nbc has projected that

mitt romney is the winner with 42% of the vote in. mr. romney at 49% of the vote. ron paul and newt gingrich both distant third and fourth in single digits right now. that's less than half it have vote in but enough to project mr. romney as the winner. we heard mr. romney speaking to his supporters in illinois. here is rick santorum addressing his supporters in gettysburg, pennsylvania. this is live. >> thank you. thank you. thank you. it is great to be back in pennsylvania. thank you for joining us. let me thank all of you for being here. i know they're not going to be hearing me but i feel so bad, we have about 1,500 people who couldn't get in here. we were just overwhelmed by the response. i feel welcome back home to pennsylvania. thank you very much.

it is -- first i just want to congratulate governor romney. i gave him a call a little earlier and congratulated him on winning the state of illinois. i also want to stay i want to thank all the folks in illinois. if you look at what will happen tonight. we're going to win down state. we're going to win central illinois. we won the areas of the conservatives populate. we're going to win western illinois. we won the area that republicans and conservatives populate we're happy about that. we're happy about the delegates we're going to get too. [ applause ] we wanted to come here tonight back to pennsylvania, back to a favorite place of mine in papa, the city and the toughen gettysburg. obviously, it's -- so many memories come to mind when we

walk here in the town and across the street where abraham lincoln finished the gettysburg address at the wills' house and if you think about the great elections of our past, and i've gone around this country over the past year now and said this is the most important election in our lifetimes. in fact, i think it's the most important election since the election of 1860. the election of 1860 was about whether these united states which is what it was mostly referred to prior to the election of 1860 would become the united states where there would be union, a country bound together to build a great and prosperous nation. a nation based on a concept. a concept that we were birthed with. a concept birthed with in our founding document of the declaration independence. i've said throughout the course of this campaign that while

other issues are certainly important -- economy, joblessness, national security concerns, the family, the issue of life -- all of these issues are important. but foundational issue in this race, the one that is the cause of the other malties that we're feeling whether it's in the economy or whether it's in the budget crisis that we're dealing with. it all boils down to one word, and that's what's at stake in this election and it's right behind me on that banner, and that's the word freedom. [ cheers and applause ] i was pleased to hear before i came out that governor romney is now adopting that theme as his speech tonight. i am glad we're moving the debate here in the republican party. i've been focused on this

because i've been out talking to people across this country doing over a thousand town hall meetings. i know the anxiety and the concerns that people have in this country about an ever expanding government. a government that is trying to dictate how we're going to live our lives and trying to order us around, trample our freedoms whether it's our economic freedoms or our religious liberty. in addition to trampling that freedom, in addition to building a dependence, a dependency on government as we see it expand and grow. now almost half the people in this country depend on some form of federal payment to help make ends meet in america. after obama care is implemented, every single american will depend upon the federal government for something that is critical, they're health and their life. that's why this election is so important.

this is election about fundamental and foundational things. this is an election about not who's the best person to manage washington or manage the economy. we don't need a manager. we need someone who will pull up the government by the roots and do something about it and do something to liberate the private sector in america. that's what we need. [ cheers and applause ] it's great to have wall street experience. i don't have wall street experience. i have experience growing up in small town in western pennsylvania. growing up in a steel town, growing up in public housing and apartments and seeing how many men and women of this country

scraped and clawed because they had the opportunity to climb the ladder of success in america. a lot of those folks the out there today feel like nobody in washington and no one in this debate is really talking about them. that's why this is a wonderful movement as i travel afternoon this country and everywhere i go, i see people, people in work clothes, folks with children who are maybe not getting the educational opportunities that they hoped for so they could climb that ladder of success. people who are looking to someone to voice their concerns about how this economy will turn around for them, not just the top of the income level. someone that believes that if we create opportunities by cutting taxes but reducing the oppressive regulatory burden that this administration has put

on business people and people who want to drill for energy. you need someone who's got a strong and clear record who can appeal to voters all across this country, and someone who you can trust. someone that you know when they say they're going to do something, they're not saying it because well that happens to be the popular theme of the moment. but someone who has a long track record of deep convictions. someone who is going to go out and stand and fight because it's not just what the pollster tells them to say or what's on their teleprompter. i don't happen to have one here tonight. [ cheers and applause ] because they know in their gut from their life experiences, from living in america, that

this is what america needs and america wants. they want someone who is not going to go to washington, d.c., because they want to be the most powerful person in the world to manage washington. they want who will take that power and give it back to the people of this country. [ applause ] there's one candidate in this race who can go out and make that contrast with the current occupant of the white house. someone who has a track record of being for you, being for limited government, being for solutions that empower people on the biggest issues of the day whether it's obama care, romney

care, they're interchangeable. [ cheers and applause ] we need someone who understands that the solution to the problem with almost 1/17th of the economy is not government control over that sector of economy, but you're control over that sector of the economy. [ applause ] we need someone who understands that we need to grow our energy supplies here in this country. we need someone who you can trust who when in good times and in bad when times were tough and people thought, well, all this oil and gas and coal in the ground is all a source of carbon dioxide and we can't take that out of ground because, well, there's a finite supply, and it could damage our environment and cause global warming.

when the climate, when those who professed manmade global warming and climate science, convinced many, many republicans, including two who are running for president on the republican ticket, mitt romney and newt gingrich, but there was one who said, i know this isn't climate science, this is political science. [ cheers and applause ] this was another attempt of those who want to take power away from you and control your access to energy, you're utilization whether it's in your car or your home of energy because they are better to make these decisions of how to use energy than you do.

that's what they believe. and unfortunately just like in health care, governor romney and speaker gingrich went along with the ride. and guess what? when the climate changed, they changed their position. and now they're all for drilling and they're all for oil and gas and coal. i was for it because it was the right thing to do then. i'll be for it tomorrow and the next day and the next day. i'm not going to change with the climate. ladies and gentlemen, i grew up in this great state and this is the first day since the launch that we wanted to come to pennsylvania to launch our campaign here in pennsylvania, we got five weeks. five weeks to a big win and a big delegate sweep in pennsylvania.

i come as a son of pennsylvania. someone who grew up in western pennsylvania. everyone knows the story, i hope, of my grandfather, my dad, coming to pennsylvania to work in those coal mines in somerset county. i learned everything, everything about freedom and opportunity and hard work from growing up with folks who worked in the mills and the mines in western pennsylvania. so when i speak, and i speak from the heart in the back of my mind are the pictures of those men and women who scraped and claw clawed who worked in

cloth so their children and grandchildren would have a better quality of life, yes maybe even go to college and not have to work tough manual labor. but most importantly, they fought for the things that the people in this battlefield just down the road fought for. they fought for big things. things that america always stood for. that ronald reagan referred to shining city on the hill. it's things that i'm fighting for here today. the reason karen and i decided in the face of having seven children ages 20 to 3, not exactly the best time to run for president of the united states when you have children 20 to 3, but karen and i felt compelled. we felt compelled because as ronald reagan said in one of his great speeches, we didn't want to have to sit down some day and look at the eyes of our children and our children's children and describe to them an america where once men were free. we don't want to be that generation that lost the torch of freedom.

that's why karen and the kids behind me all of whom born in pennsylvania, all of those folks who understand the great -- the greatness of our state and the greatness of the values of this state, all of us understand what was sacrificed in the mills and on the battlefields. and that's why we must go out and fight this fight. that's why we must go out and nominate someone who understands not because some pollster tells them, because they know in their gut just like you do all across this country, you know in your gut big things are adrift and at stake in this election. so i ask each and every one of you to join us, to saddle up like reagan did in the cowboy

movies, to saddle up, take on that responsibility over the next five weeks. we're going to head to louisiana from here. we're feeling very, very good about winning louisiana on saturday, i might add. [ cheers and applause ] we're heading to louisiana for the rest of the week and then we're going to be back here in pennsylvania and we're going to pick up a whole boatload of delegates and close this gap onto victory. thank you all very much. god bless you. thank you. >> rick santorum in his home state in gettysburg, pennsylvania, with his family addressing his supporters having it looks like come in second in the illinois primary tonight expressing he was looking

forward to a five-week-long campaign to win as many delegates and a big win as many delegates as possible saying he felt confident about the prospects of winning in louisiana this coming saturday. the host of andrea mitchell reports is andrea mitchell. she joins us now along with the senior strategist for the mccain-palin campaign in 2008. andrea, i wanted to ask you about the interesting contrast that we saw between mr. romney and mr. santorum tonight. mr. romney campaigning against barack obama and barack obama only. mr. santorum campaigning not just against mitt romney but also a little against newt gingrich, too, almost no mention of barack obama at all. i wonder what that says to you about what happens from here on out. >> i think it says that rick santorum is very much now an underdog. he has not proved that he can win decisively outside of the south. illinois was a big long shot for him. he was outspent. he didn't organize well enough to have delegates in all of the congressional district, as you know, he lost even the chance in four congressional districts.

but if he had been more competitive in illinois that really would have slowed any momentum that mitt romney has. i think romney going into this next -- this next part of the calendar with the exception of louisiana where he really cannot compete, i don't think he can with rick santorum and the evangelical support thaerps he has there, i think now in the northeast mitt romney has a very good chance not to seal the deal in terms of the delegate count but certainly to build the momentum and try to regain that instability. >> steve schmidt, listening to mr. santorum tonight attacking mr. romney as a manager who just does what he is told, who has no core, who believes what the climate at the political climate at the moment tells him to believe. he is building an effective rebuttal to the mitt romney centered campaign? >> i think one of the things that you heard rick santorum talk about tonight which i think is intended to insulate him from calls to get out of the race or to step aside is that he's

looking forward to the pennsylvania primary five weeks from now, giving no indication that he's planning to get out of the race. the gloves are off. he's going to continue to make a tough case. he's going to continue to make an ideological case attacking mitt romney from his right. his strategy is to deny mitt romney the requisite number of delegates he needs to be nominated under the hope that rick santorum in his mind the more conservative the two can come up with a strategy at the convention. if there's not enough delegates to nominate. >> nbc's andrea mitchell and steve schmidt, senior strategist for the mccain-palin dman '08. thank you both very your time tonight.

but each stecht way i learned a little bit more about what it is that makes our american system so powerful. you can't learn that teaching constitutional law at university of chicago, all right? >> romney really went after the president. he brought up the president's academic background several times and made it a key part of his closing message. >> we once led the world in manufacturing, exports, investment. today we lead the world in lawsuits. you know, when we replace a law professor with a conservative businessman as president, that's going to end. >> rick santorum came out on the losing end of things tonight. but he spoke with supporters in pennsylvania and tried to spin some positive news. >> we're going to win down state, we're going to win centralil. i will we're going to win western illinois. we won the areas that conservatives and republicans populate and we're very happy about that.

we're happy about the delegates we're going to get, too. >> romney and his allies outspent santorum 7-to-1 in illinois, and apparently it paid off big time. let's turn to nbc news political director chuck todd. chuck, thanks for burning the midnight oil tonight. >> you got it, buddy. >> the big takeaway from this tonight, for someone who is a novice news consumer and said, hey, what's happened with these republicans? what's the headline read after tonight? >> well, i think romney's a step closer. he was on his way. he still hasn't put the period at the end of the sentence of presumptive and he's been to this point before, just one more win to put the exclamation point, the period, whatever you want to say, whatever punctuation mark you want to use to end this campaign and end this chapter and every time he's about to it's when santorum wins something else, this something else would be wisconsin. illinois could have been the period or exclamation point had romney won illinois -- romney won mississippi last week.

won mississippi last week. i want to make a few points. number one, look at newt gingrich tonight. he is sitting in fourth place, ed, not third place, fourth place. this is a campaign that is sinking fast, and i think you see conservative voters in the state of illinois, basically are no longer viewing newt as a viable option. that's good and bad for santorum, because he basically got his two-man race. even if you add the newt vote to santorum, what little there was tonight, it still wouldn't have been enough to beat romney in illinois, but let me show you why. illinois, if you look at it, is a state romney fit a lot better. this is only been seven states so far that we've had primaries in where you've had moderates, liberal or moderate republicans outnumber very conservative republicans. in fact, to take it a step further, illinois was basically the fourth most moderate republican primary state we've

had so far, the only one with more moderate voters and less conservative voters were new hampshire, massachusetts, michigan, and vermont, all states romney won, so this was as much about demographics and ideology for mitt romney tonight in that he just fit the state of illinois. the question is, can he sort of take this momentum and in two weeks from now sweep april 3rd, make wisconsin the period or exclamation point, and then you will hear republicans around the country start calling for santorum to stop this. santorum wins it, that's a different story. >> does santorum have to win in louisiana and wisconsin, and looking at louisiana after tonight's win, it seems like people are starting to lean towards mitt romney as he continues to build up states. would that put him in a better position to pick up, possibly, louisiana? >> i would be surprised, because if you just look at it on the demographics, there's nothing in

the exit poll that tells me somehow romney's making progress with that core conservative vote that continues to sort of reject romney, and that is -- that is what louisiana is, louisiana is a lot more like mississippi or an alabama or an oklahoma than it's going to be in illinois, so i will be shocked if romney somehow wins or even comes close in louisiana, and if he does, if he does, i do think that's, once again, the beginning of the end. this very well be the beginning of the end tonight for santorum as romney tries to bring this nomination plane in for a landing, but i ultimately think for santorum, it's a one-state strategy at this point, it's all about wisconsin, he's got to win louisiana, wisconsin, if he doesn't win there, that's it. april is going to be a sweep outside of pennsylvania, and at that point you're going to hear republicans say enough is enough, rick santorum, time to rally around romney, he's going to be the nominee. >> when you look at that part of the country, it is kind of santorum's backyard, he did not win ohio, he did not win

michigan, and tonight he did not win illinois and he's appealing to those middle classers out there, he's on the manufacturing stump and here comes a wall streeter in mitt romney and he wins those states. i think, image-wise, it weakens santorum. >> no, it does, and that's why santorum needed something tonight. this is always tough, though, illinois is not like the rest of the midwest. my dad grew up in iowa, my mom grew up in illinois, he used to say illinois is not the real midwest, iowa is the real midwest, it's nothing more than junior new york with that big city chicago in it, it was sort of half of a joke, so with all due respect to illinois, and there's, obviously, lots of it that are very much rural and midwest, agricultural communities and all that, but wisconsin will be a, you know, if santorum can't be romney in wisconsin, where is he going to beat him in a non-southern area? where is it going to happen? look at his win map here, right, santorum is in purple, romney's in green. wisconsin is sort of halfway,

you know, sitting in between where he's done well as you sort of go into this, in your neck of woods there, the dakotas and more of the agricultural midwest while romney has eked out these wins in the industrial west, so wisconsin's got a little bit of both in it. >> chuck todd, great to have you with us, thanks so much. now let's turn to howard fineman, nbc news political analyst and editorial director of "the huffington post" and steve schmidt, served as a senior adviser to senator john mccain's presidential campaign. howard, what are you hearing from the campaigns tonight in the wake of this? >> well, i think the santorum campaign thinks that, at best, there's a semicolon, neither a period or exclamation point, there's another half of the sentence, and they think the next half of the sentence are some of the states chuck was talking about, louisiana and wisconsin, but also they had a long conference call today, earlier today, ed, that i was on

in which the santorum people were lay bore yously going over the places rick santorum can end up winning more delegates than you might think because he's going to do well at the district, county, state conventions in states such as iowa, missouri, colorado, minnesota, states that had beauty pageant caucus and primary votes but where the real, hard, nitty gritty work of getting the delegates is only now happening. santorum were spending a lot of time on that earlier today because they knew what would happen in illinois tonight. it was a big victory for romney in illinois. some thought the margin was going to shrink, i don't think that's going to happen. and for the romney people, the

key thing is, as of right now if you look at our numbers on the screen, mitt romney has won at least 38 delegates, rick santorum has won zero. >> steve, when is the party going to call it quits for this primary and throw all their support to mitt romney, and i know there's been a lot of conversation on our coverage about how gingrich is taken away votes from santorum, and as chuck todd pointed out, that really wasn't the case, if he got all gingrich's votes, santorum did, he still wouldn't have beaten mitt romney, so does that mean anything tonight? >> we're not there yet. rick santorum has signalled he's going to continue to go on, ed, the pennsylvania primary is five weeks away, he's indicated he's going to compete in the pennsylvania primary. i think mitt romney took a step forward tonight. he's taken a lot of steps back as we come through these tuesday nights, but the race is going to continue to go on. >> howard, what is newt gingrich going to do at this point, he had a -- for lack of a better

term -- a horrible showing tonight considering his name recognition in the political arena. >> there are not many place ahead you can see him doing well, maybe he hopes to get votes in louisiana, for example, but he's running out of places and not had a rational for a long time, earlier tonight steve used the term delusional, i've used that term too as it relates to newt gingrich. newt and his wife are enjoying the attention they are getting, symbolic with where his head is at at this point, one day he's taking it very seriously, the next day he's not. but i don't see him dropping out. maybe down the line if mitt romney, as could well happen, doesn't amass the 1,144 delegates he needs by the end of the primary season in june, then newt gingrich will be able to say, you know, i've got about 50 delegates here, i can put you over the top, what kind of deal

are you willing to make and i'm sure mitt romney will be willing to listen. >> how important is louisiana, steve? >> well, i think it's important if mitt romney wins it. i think rick santorum is expected to win it, so as long as everything goes down like we expect it do go down, i don't think it's that important. rick santorum has to win in states he's not expected to win in to keep momentum going forward as we look out for the remainder of this contest. >> what would that be, would wisconsin be that state? >> wisconsin could be that state, when you get then into may, you start to look at texas, you start to look at north carolina, you look at the calendar in april, looks nice for mitt romney. you get into a contest in may, it's a little bit more favorable terrain-wise, to santorum, but he needs to have a win in april in this late march period, no doubt about it. >> the long run in all of this, the barbs back and forth between one another are getting a little nastier, howard, this long primary, is it taking a toll on the republicans?

>> yes, but i don't think irreparably so, i really don't. the dramatic fact here is mitt romney is sort of carrying out a hostile takeover of what we considered to be a sort of southern-based, evangelical-driven, modern republican party. after all, ronald reagan and the bush family built it out of the south, based in the south, based on religious activists and so forth in the modern republican party as we know it, yet mitt romney isn't winning any of those states, and so even though he has a majority of the delegates, i mean, most of the lead in delegates and the lead in money and the lead in votes, and even though he's crawling his way towards the nomination and probably will get it, he's going to get it without the act of support of what had been considered the base of the party. that means that toward the end of the process of voting and in the months of june, july, and august leading up to the convention, he's going to have to figure out how, it seems to

me, to unite the party, and that will be the difficult and tricky part, but if he's got the diplomatic skills to do it, then he's got the diplomatic skills to be president. if he doesn't and it stays divided, then it truly will be a disaster for the party. >> finally, gentlemen, this man's name never gets mentioned, but his name is up there every night, do i dare bring of ron paul and ask what's his program, steve? >> all along paul hasn't been running to win an election, i think he's been running to build a movement and i think he will have accomplished some of that this turn, he'll have done better than he did last time, and i think he has a movement, it will be interesting to see how his son, senator rand paul, assumes leadership in years to

come. >> howard fineman, steve schmidt, always a pleasure, great to have you with us tonight. coming up, more analysis of tonight's primary in illinois. we'll hear from rick santorum's press secretary, alex stewart, about what's next for the candidate, and msnbc analyst michael steele and eugene robinson weigs in. later, more details in the trayvon martin case, his girlfriend describes their conversation just before he was killed, reverend al sharpton and charles blow from the new york times join me on that tonight. stay with us, we're right back.

coming up on "the ed show," more coverage of tonight's primary in illinois will mitt romney winning illinois by double digits. what's next for rick santorum? i'll ask his campaign press secretary, alice stewart. it's also being joined by msnbc's analyst michael steele and eugene robinson. and big developments out of florida in the trayvon martin

case. details later in this hour, we'll be right back.

welcome back to "the ed show." tonight was a big win for mitt romney in the state of illinois, and it raises questions about whether rick santorum has any real shot of being a factor in this race anymore. this was rick santorum tonight. >> all it boils down to one word, and that's what's at stake in this election, and it's right behind me on that banner and it's the word freedom. i was pleased to hear, before i came out, governor romney is now adapting that theme as his speech tonight. i am glad we are moving the debate here in the republican

party. >> freedom, well, it's also about delegates, but santorum may be running out of opportunities to move the debate in this race. many of the big contests coming up are favorable to mitt romney, an upset by santorum tonight might have changed the dynamic, but that didn't happen. i'm joined tonight by alice stewart, press secretary for rick santorum's campaign. alice, good to have you with us tonight, but before we get to tonight's results, i want to ask you about the ryan plan that came out today, mitt romney is on record saying he supports it, and i'm not quite sure if i understand if rick santorum is behind the plan that was put out today. can you clarify that for us? >> rick had a conversation with congressman ryan earlier and he supports the idea behind reigning in government spending, and he supports many aspects of it, there are some he doesn't agree with, but he supports the overall idea of reducing government spending and is fully supportive of that.

>> in general, we would take that as an answer that rick santorum is supporting the ryan plan? >> as i said, there are certain aspects of the plan he's supportive of, some he doesn't necessarily agree with, but the overall idea of reducing government spending is something rick has always been supportive of and a key aspect of this campaign. as he said, freedom is a big part of this campaign and that goes with freedom from government spending and is a big aspect that's rsinaing with the people. >> if rick santorum were president of the united states, would he sign the ryan plan? >> as i said, there's a lot of things that still need to be discussed, a lot of things, as i said, he supports, some things that he would change, but as i said, the overall premise of reducing government spending is something rick has been supportive of, limited

government and reduced government spending is a big facet and something rick has always been supportive of. >> okay, after the aftermath of the win by romney, where does it leave santorum, is he still viable? >> certainly, this is a marathon, not a sprint. people thought he'd run away with alabama and mississippi, but we overperformed in those states, it's been back and forth all along. certainly, we would have preferred to do much better this evening, but this is a long road ahead. we're about at the halfway point in this. we've got some good states coming up, louisiana will be favorable to rick, pennsylvania certainly will, texas, so we're looking at the states we have ahead, and the good thing what we're seeing is rick's message is resinating with people, we're having conservatives line up behind him. in illinois, the fact mitt romney didn't run further away from this is just astounding. he outspent rick 20-1 in the city of chicago, 21-1, and that's where many of the votes came from. we focussed on the more conservative areas outside the

larger cities and did well in those areas, but the fact is, mitt romney is not energizing the people, he should be running away in every single state, but he's not. people are recognizing the fact rick is the consistent conservative in this race and we're picking up state after state and many delegates along the way. >> okay, what about wisconsin, and i ask you that for geographical questions, i mean, rick santorum did not win ohio, did not win michigan, did not win illinois, and in that part of the country where middle classers are big and labor and the kind of people that he's talking about when it comes to manufacturing, how important is wisconsin? >> well, every state's certainly important, ed, and what we're hoping is tonight was another example, as we saw, newt gingrich's poll numbers were

very low. we're hoping conservatives and tea party leaders take a look at this very closely, and they need to decide now is the time to rally behind the conservative in this race, that's rick santorum, we need to make this a two-man race and that's what conservative and tea party folks need to do in wisconsin, we need this to narrow down to a two-man race and with that we'll no doubt see rick santorum will continue to do well in every state that's left on the calendar. >> narrowing it down to a two-man race, does that mean you want gingrich to get out, ron paul isn't doing much, do you want gingrich out of the race, is it time for him to step aside? >> it's not our place to ask him to get out, but we are asking for conservatives and tea party leaders to rally behind the conservative candidate. we can't afford to have a moderate candidate for the republican party, we can't afford to have a candidate like mitt romney who's going to have the key issues of the party taken off the table, that goes with obamacare, cap and trade, the wall street bailouts, he can't debate those issues with barack obama and rick santorum can. we need people to rally behind rick santorum. >> final question, i want to get back to the money.

with 96% of the vote in, your candidate lost by 100,000 votes tonight. you say he was outspent 21-1 in chicago. is money the difference? if rick santorum had anywhere near equal money to mitt romney, would rick santorum be running away with this? >> well, no doubt, but the fact is, what we're seeing and the fact that we are so outspent and we're still doing so well is that people are recognizing it's about the message and about the man. money has been a tremendous boost for mitt romney, we're still doing well in many states and people are going to recognize they need to stand behind the conservative candidate. >> alice stewart, thank you for your time tonight on "the ed show." good luck to you, appreciate it. next up, mitt romney was tonight's big winner in illinois, but he's losing favorability among more and more undecided voters. msnbc analyst michael steele and

eugene robinson.

and more politics tonight, msnbc news projecting mitt romney will win the illinois primary with 96% of the vote in. looks like he's picking up 69 delegates, at least that's what at stake. the numbers right now, he's at 408,289 with 47% of the vote out of 97% in with 69 delegates at stake. with this vicious race for the

republican nomination has taken a toll on his favorability ratings, according to polls, mitt romney's unfavorability ratings are up 13% since he got in the race while his favorability rating stayed flat, which means most undecided voters have decided they don't like mitt. maybe it's the dog story, i don't know. and we still have a long way to go before anyone gets enough delegates to clench the nomination. joining me tonight is msnbc political analyst michael steele, also with us student is associate editor and pulitzer prize winning columnist for the washington post, eugene robinson. gentlemen, thank you for burning the midnight oil tonight. >> for you, ed, absolutely. >> michael, we're here because of the gop primary rules enacted, which you led the rnc, that's why we're working late.

okay, given mitt romney's situation on the numbers that i just showed about favorability ratings and where people are going, is this a tenuous situation in maybe it is hurting the republican brand, what do you think? >> no, it's not that. the process isn't hurting the brand, it is how the candidates are conducting the negative ad campaigns. that's where that drain on the brand, it is how the candidates are conducting the negative ad campaigns. that's where that drain on the favorability is coming from, it's independents looking at the race and not liking the way the candidate is positioning himself, vis-a-vis the other candidates and the background noise taking the drain. you noted in earlier shows, ed, the downturn in the number of going to the polls, republicans showing up is off by 500,000 or 600,000 since 2008.

that's because of this negative thrust, not the process that's the problem, it's the way the campaign is being conducted, the fact that it started off before iowa with $3 million in negative ads against newt and it hasn't stopped. >> eugene, after such a damaging primary, how do any of these candidates turn around and win a general election, and, of course, the women's health issues seems to be looming very big. >> the women's health issue was the party shooting itself in the foot, but look, there is time. i don't doubt, in the end, this is going to be a close election. the republican party does, basically, agree that it does not like barack obama and so i think you'll see a fairly unified party coming out of the convention, determined to wage a competitive campaign in the fall. no, i think the party has done itself a good deal of damage over the last few months, and it may not recover all the way from that, but they got time to fight.

>> michael, should any of these candidates think about getting out right now? >> there's no one centered to do that, the numbers work in their favor. >> even newt? >> even newt. look, because you got probably four states that are left or six states that are left that are winner take all, you're going to have -- everything else is going to be proportional, he's going to grab something, so his fight, as newt said last week, you know, i'm going to contest this all the way to tampa on the convention floor, so there's no one centered for him to get out right now. money notwithstanding, ed, and i know the segment you ran touched on that, but the money piece is not a big factor for newt or santorum because they have message or momentum, even for newt, he's still pulling votes. >> was romney more aggressive on president obama tonight, eugene robinson, than we've seen in the past, i mean, getting into his academic record, working him over about being a constitutional lawyer? >> this was tough on obama, mitt romney, we've seen this before in some of his earlier victories, but he gets on a streak and he pivots to the general election mode where he

hammers obama, that's his speech, and then he gets beaten in the next primary by santorum and he has to pivot again to worry about the republican base, so that's why, you know, but if you recall, we've heard this before. >> the good news is, the dog story isn't hurting him in the polls, so, michael steele, eugene robinson, great to have you with us tonight, thanks so much. coming up, the department of justice ape and fbi are looking into the death of a florida teenager, trayvon martin, details next. later, mitt romney tells the women of america they are on their own when it comes to health care, stay tuned.

we now know what florida teenager trayvon martin was doing in the moments before he was killed by george zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer. the 17-year-old trayvon martin was talking on the phone with his 16-year-old girlfriend. he was not casing houses, as

zimmerman suggested. he was coming back to the neighborhood with a bag of skittles and was chased by a vigilante be a 9-millimeter handgun. there's finally been some movement from law enforcement in this case, even though george zimmerman has still not been arrested. the department of justice and the fbi are opening a formal investigation into the killing of trayvon martin. the state attorney has ordered a grand jury to reconvene on april 10th. rick scott has asked for appropriate resources. trayvon's 16-year-old girlfriend told the martin family lawyer about her final call with trayvon. >> he said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. >> keep in mind, george zimmerman was sitting in the safety and comfort of his suv and then decided to pursue

trayvon martin, even though a dispatcher told him not to. the girlfriend told trayvon to run. later on, the girlfriend was still on the phone with trayvon when george zimmerman confronted him. >> trayvon said what are you following me for, and then the man said what are you doing around here, then somebody pushed trayvon, because the headset fell. >> she called right back, but he didn't answer, he had died from a gunshot wound to the chest. here's the martin family lawyer, benjamin crump. >> he kept pursuing trayvon martin, how do we know? this young lady connects the dots. she connects the dots. she completely blows zimmerman's absurd self defense claim out of the water. we're going to turn this over to the department of justice and their investigation because the family does not trust the stanford police department and anything to do with the investigation. >> and there is more, nbc news believes zimmerman used a racial slur on the 911 call.

>> which entrance is that that he's heading towards? >> the back entrance [ bleep ] -- >> let's bring in reverend al sharpton, host of "politics nation" here on msnbc and charles blow, columnist for "the new york times." gentlemen, thanks for your time tonight. gentlemen, a lot has changes in the last 24 hours, the racial slur would be relative to motive, particularly a hate crime. >> i think the racial slur, as well as the phone calls that the mr. zimmerman, the killer in this case had made several reports over the last several months, all of which he identified race. it seemed as though there was always this preoccupation with race, even some people have said to know him he seemed to really be obsessive on fighting crime and focusing on young black males, all of this would be part of a consideration on a hate

crime. and i think that clearly, as you said, that the statements by this young lady blows any self defense. i think it was already blown because he says on the 911 tape that he was pursuing trayvon, that trayvon was not pursing him, so how's that self defense, but what this young lady and the phone logs showing the times she was speaking to him, will give real credence to her testimony, because they will try in a trial to cross-examine her and blow her statements out, how do they explain the phone logs and the fact he was talking to her at this time, how do you talk to your girlfriend if you're casing out houses to rob and you have no tools, no weapons, nothing, to do a robbery. i think this is devastating for zimmerman's story. >> charles, if you could compare the girlfriend's account with all the other witnesses, who

>> charles, if you could compare the girlfriend's account with all the other witnesses, who said that they heard someone crying for help. put this all together for us, what do you think? >> right, her statement is prior to the other 911 call, so there is no overlap between the 911 tapes that we've already heard and the statement that we've heard from the young lady, however, there is -- there does appear to be some overlap between zimmerman's 911 call and what this young lady describes, and some of it is not necessarily joshing the way that it should. for instance, she explains that trayvon notices zimmerman watching him before he puts on his hoodie, well, what you hear zimmerman saying, this guy has on a hoodie and there's some kind of equivocation on whether or not he can identify race. well, if the kid has his hooded sweatshirt down, you'd definitely know he was black before, when you called 911.

>> so based on these phone calls, it is very clear that this man pursued the victim, i mean, absolutely pursued him. how much more evidence does the district attorney need? >> it is absolutely clear, if you are to believe this young lady's testimony and if you listened to what zimmerman is saying himself, he is pursuing trayvon, and this child is trying to get away from him, and the girlfriend is trying to help him figure out a way to get away, whether he will run or whether he will walk fast or whatever the case may be. and what happens is, and this is very important, ed, there becomes an exchange, according to this young lady, where trayvon turns to zimmerman and says, why are you following me, and that is the opportunity for zimmerman to say, i am in charge of the neighborhood watch, i just want to make sure that you belong here or something to that effect, to identify yourself as the authority and what you are doing following him, because to that child, like any other child, you are a stranger, and

we have all taught our children to stay away from strangers and get away from them if they are following you. he does not seize that opportunity, that is a big problem. >> the young martin teenager might have thought he was a sexual predator, anything. >> could have thought he was anything. >> reverend, you're going down there, and i've asked the question on radio, the city commissioners, the mayor, the county commissioners, the police chief, where are these folks? >> well, that's a good question that we're going to raise. not only where are they, if you have 911 tapes where he's saying he's pursuing trayvon, if he, himself, did not do what he said he would do, the dispatcher, not only when he called 911 tell him we don't need you to follow trayvon, he agreed and did the opposite, then how do you at any

point if you're the police let him go the self defense claim when you have 911 tapes that does the opposite of that? that is why he should have been arrested and should still be arrested right now, because there is no evidence to support self defense, even under florida law, because the evidence they have say he was the one pursuing, he was not under threat. if he has any other evidence, then he has to present that at a trial. they can't take his word for that and say, no, let me explain that, because they are allowing him to do what they are not allowing others to do, and that is testify without a trial. >> here's more from the family lawyer today at the press conference. >> why didn't the stanford police department do a drug and alcohol analysis on him? they did one on trayvon martin who was dead on the ground, why didn't they do it on george zimmerman? you ask yourself, why didn't they take a background check on the man who had just killed this kid in cold blood? they did a background check on

trayvon martin. >> if this is true, what does this say about the police investigation, mr. blow? >> well, it does raise a lot of questions and is unsetting to hear that, and like you say, if that is true, it points to the idea that you are assuming that the person who is the victim and is dead is in somehow the aggressor in this case based only on the person who pulled the trigger's word, and that is a very, very disturbing precedent toet, and that says a lot to the community as a whole to say, if you are killed, we will take the killer's opinion over yours, even if death. that is a very, very interesting kind of comment to make about a dead child. >> and we should point out that abc news reported that the neighborhood watch, zimmerman's neighborhood watch, was not registered, neighborhood watch volunteers are not supposed to

be carrying firearms. >> i think the last two things that you said and charles blow said are important, one, i think the department of justice also has to investigate the role of the police and how they behaved and what they did and did not do and why, and, second, you have to question a justice department investigation if a neighborhood watch was not registered, then why were they treating him like he was an official neighborhood watch person and why was he treated in interrogation in that way? >> and this defining the rules of neighborhood watch and responsibilities, i mean, it would seem to me there's going to have to be a full examination of how that program works. >> how it works and how the police dealt with an unregistered neighborhood watchman. >> we'll do more, thanks so much. coming up, the gop war on women's health continues. mitt romney tells a woman at a campaign event that you're on

your own when it comes to health care. karen finney will weigh in on that and more. stay tuned.

and there is late-breaking news out of the state of michigan tonight, the emergency manager in the city of flint, michigan, has been removed by a county judge. the judge ruled the state violated the state's opened meetings law and reinstated mayor dane walling and the city council. this is a major setback for governor rick snyder. when we return, more information on the gop's war on women, karen finney, stay with us, we are right back.

welcome back to the ed show. it's primary night in illinois. will mitt romney win the state? karen finney joins us on the gop war on women. stay with us.

msnbc news projects mitt romney is the winner of the primary in illinois. up next, a discussion about mitt romney. is he going to have a problem winning women going forward because of the gop's war on women? don't forget, you could listen to me on siriusxm satellite radio, channel 27. and like me on "the ed show." we'll be right back.

mitt romney wants to defund planned parenthood and told a crowd in illinois that they are on their own when it comes to health care. >> you made it very clear you're not in support of planned parenthood, but i'm just wondering where you would suggest that the millions of women who receive their health services, such as mammograms and hpv vaccines, go. >> well, they can go wherever they would like to go, this is a

free society. but here's what i say, which is the federal government should not tax these people to play for planned parenthood. >> i'm joined tonight by karen finney, msnbc political analyst and director for the congressional national committee. being the communications director, it would seem to me that mitt romney has quite a lift right here explaining to women all over the country. do you think women want to be on their own when it comes to their health care? >> no, absolutely not, and i think women were very encouraged to hear from president obama. essentially what he said was we believe there are a basic level of services in terms of preventative care that should be covered for women and men. there are a whole suite of services that we believe is good medicine, right, for women. essentially what mitt romney is saying, is, i don't really care about that. i don't care about you, i don't care about your health. you're on your own and we'll figure something else out. that's going to be very distressing to a lot of women in a general election. i notice both he and santorum have had their wives at their sides quite a bit over the last several weeks, i suppose in an attempt to appeal to women. >> romney has also called for title 10 funds to be cut which allocated federal money for family planning, he endorsed the blunt amendment.

can he continue to go down this road? how does this play in general, do you think? >> it's certainly going to hurt him in the general. this is part of his attempt to prove to those folks on the right in the primary that, you know, he's really with them. because there's all of this -- there's this whole record that's sort of trailing him that suggests he's been on the other side of the issue. so now he's trying to double down and really prove himself to the saudians. it will be interesting. let's say he's our general election candidate, which i believe all of us believe he will be, let's see what con torsions he tries to go through again in the general election. >> it sounds like he was more concerned about this person's taxes over here than he was about the health care from the woman asking the question. here's another woman confronting romney at the same rally. >> so you're like yay, freedom,

yay pursuit of happiness. do you know what would make me happy? free birth control. >> let me tell you -- look, let me tell you something. if you're looking for free stuff, if you're looking for free stuff you don't have to pay for, vote for the other guy. that's what he's all about, okay? >> how does that play? notice both of the women are of a younger demographic that asked the question. >> that's right. it's a couple things. younger voters in particular really don't like this idea of the government telling them what you can and can't do with their bodies. none of us like that, but younger voters in particular. it's that sort of libertarian streak. but in addition to that, really, ed, it will come back down to our current president believes there are some basic services that we know are good medicine for women for preventative health care, that he believes women ought to have access to without a co-pay. mitt romney doesn't believe that. that also shows, frankly, as much as he knows owners of

football teams and nascar teams, how out of touch he really is with how women are living their lives. >> here's karen santorum on her plan for women's health. >> he's completely supportive of women, he's surrounded by a lot of very strong women, and i think women have nothing to fear. when it comes to contraceptives, he will do nothing on that issue. >> that clearly contradicts what he said. >> he's had his wife by his side since he started getting trouble with women voters. you have these guys talking about these measures and then you've got these state measures that you alluded to earlier that really undermine women as fundamental human beings, and i think they're looking for candidates that will treat them like adults. >> there is a movement, no doubt about it, on a federal and state level. karen finney, good to have you.

thank you very much. the rachel maddow show starts now. good evening, rachel. it looks like it's mitt. >> it's going to be interesting over the course of the night. thanks, ed. thanks to you at home for staying with us in the next hour. tonight is the illinois republican primary. as ed just told you, polls closed about an hour ago. mitt romney has won the state of illinois, mitt romney the projected winner in that state. the latest results we have right now are 19% in, mitt romney 54% of the vote, rick santorum, 28% of the vote, ron paul 9% of the vote, newt gingrich, 7% of the vote. we'll be watching those percentages in the rankings of the other candidates as the percentages of the vote increases. this is exciting. this is election night. republicans in the great state of illinois making big

consequential decisions whether to punch their ballot for mitt romney, rick santorum, ron paul or newt gingrich. actually, that's not the way it has worked at all. have you seen what the ballot looks like that republicans were using tonight in illinois? it's different in every county, but this is representative. let's put up the macon county ballot. if you're going to vote in illinois and you're voting in macon county, which is right in the middle of the state, if you want mitt romney to be president, you can indicate you want mitt romney to be president of the united states, but whether or not you do that, it doesn't really mean anything. it does not get totaled for any official purpose. we will tell you tonight what the final results are of how people filled in that part of their ballot, but that's -- as important as it is, that's essentially the end of it. those results don't actually go toward any other purpose. if you actually want to commit

an act of furtherance toward mitt romney getting nomination for the republican party for president, it does not matter whether or not you vote for mitt romney today in illinois. i know that sounds counterintuitive, but it's true. if you want to help mitt romney become the republican's party for president, today in illinois, you would have had to vote for, in macon county, habeebe habeebe. and jan miller. and james newburg. james la grecian and joe mitchell. those are the votes you would have had to cast today to contribute to mitt romney getting the presidential nomination for president. it does not matter who you vote for for president, it matters which individual delegates you vote for and who they stand for. now, let's say you do like mitt romney, but let's say you hate this guy jimmy john liautaud, or you hate one of these other people.

you can't vote for them because you had a dispute about the height of a fence this guy put up near your child's ballpark. you have a random dispute for one of these delegates. you can pick all the other people listed as the mitt romney delegates but not the guy you don't like. let's say your other delegate choice is jim hendricks. this is all hypothetical. i don't know who these people are, but it says on your ballot that jim hendricks is for newt gingrich. even though you're not particularly for newt gingrich, that's okay, you can pick him as a delegate. if you did that, how would your vote be counted, then? should that be seen as a vote most formal mitt romney but also a little bit for newt gingrich because you picked a newt gingrich delegate along with your mitt romney votes? your expression in what you want to happen in the delegate who has some meaning for who might be picked for president, it has esoteric meaning in illinois today.

there is a whole swath of illinois that has a different ballot in one very important way. say you live in macon county and you're not a mitt romney fan. instead you are a rick santorum fan. more than anything, you want rick santorum to be president. for that reason, it probably felt awesome for you when you went out and voted in macon county today. you made your mark. you punched that ballot that your vote for the republican party's presidential nominee is for rick santorum. he's your guy. you voted for rick santorum. in someplace like macon county, that means nothing, nothing at all. you have made yourself feel good by stating your preference and nbc and all the other news agencies will eventually report how many people committed that feeling today. but if you don't just want to feel like you want rick santorum for president, if you turned out

to vote today because you actually want to help rick santorum secure the nomination of the republican party for president, you are out of luck. there was nothing you could do today in macon county on your ballot to make it more likely that rick santorum would win the nomination. because even though you can express that you want him to be your party's nominee, there are no delegates to vote for that have rick santorum's name next to them. and macon county and other parts of the state -- you can see the macon county balance locality. three guys for romney, three alternates for romney, three for ron paul, three alternates for gingrich. there was no alternates for rick santorum if you were a rick santorum supporter today. even though santorum got some delegates, he didn't get enough of them. everyone has a full slate of first tier delegates, but when it comes to the alternates, each candidate is supposed to have four. ron paul only has two, rick santorum only has one, so what

are you going to do if those are your candidates? if you're going to split the delegates around and vote for all sorts of different delegates, how should the rest of us determine the importance of what you do? if you were voting in illinois today, you were quite within your rights to vote for, say, buddy romer for president and then vote for one delegate of each of the candidates that had delegates. you could vote for a paul delegate, a santorum delegate, a romney delegate, a gingrich delegate, you could split them up that way. but when we're trying to figure out what illinois wants, how should a vote like that be considered? as i mentioned at the top, nbc news has now declared mitt romney the projected winner of illinois. that means he has been chosen by people who expressed a non-binding preference unrelated to delegates, right? in terms of who ought to win the republican party's nomination from illinois.

ultimately what will mostly have been achieved tonight in illinois is steeply heightened cynicism about whether the republican nominating contest is a transparent election, whether these votes express the will of the voters on their favorite party. heightened speculation about that. the other result is that the illinois drugstore has probably sold a lot of antacid today for voters trying to figure out a ballot that looks like this. if you turned out today thinking, all i want to do is vote for ron paul. aim and shoot, right? for a ballot this complicated rkts what are you going to do? macon county was one of 26 jurisdictions today where the ballot literally did not fit into the tallying machine. the ballots were too wide for the scanners in two dozen counties, and therefore, they could not be put through the machines. good luck trying to vote on this puppy, right, without any mechanical assistance, right? just aim. do what you will.

the illinois republican primary is impentrable, frankly. illinois is one of the good ones. this was one of the bad ones this week. vote! vote! vote! >> point of order! point of order! >> this is what happened in the previous nomination this week. this was the republican caucus in the great state of missouri this past weekend. it kind of makes illinois look great today, doesn't it? i know what you're thinking. missouri? i thought missouri voted weeks ago. sort of. missouri state law required republicans there to hold a primary on february 7. but because that would earn them a punishment from the national republican party, missouri republicans tried to change that date until later. but they couldn't get it together to change that state law despite controlling the entire legislature, so they

decided to spend 7 million taxpayer dollars holding that primary as required by state law on february 7 even though that primary did not count for anything. rick santorum was very proud to have won that missouri contest. he went to the republican stronghold of st. charles county. he gave them a big speech thanking them for that big fake win that meant nothing, but the real contest, the binding vote, the caucuses in missouri were actually this past weekend, and this is what it looked like in that same st. charles county. >> i'm sorry. >> remove the chair! remove the chair! remove the chair! remove the chair! remove the chair! remove the chair! >> now, st. charles, missouri is just outside st. louis. it's a republican stronghold in the state. so much so that this county has more delegates to allocate to the republican primary than anyplace in the whole state, but they so far allocated none

because their process was this. their process was shut down by police before the weekend. i guess they thought it was going to turn into a riot. they had them shut down the caucus before they voted on any delegates. one told the paper, quote, i don't know what's going to happen because i don't think this has happened before. and one republican said, quote, i think we embarrassed the party. remember, this is the place that has the most delegates to give in the entire state. this was the republican stronghold. not only do we not know where they get their delegates, but missouri republicans can't even figure out how they're going to figure it out. they can't figure out how the delegates are going to be allocated. it wasn't just st. charles county where the republicans unraveled this weekend. this was the scene in clay county, missouri on the other side of the state. >> the chaos inside the caucus started even before the pledge of allegiance. ron paul supporters tried to

take control by electing their own chairman and ousting the clay county gop leader, ben beckey. he sometimes lost control of the meeting and threatened to have people thrown out. >> that's enough! that's your last warning. >> clay county, missouri did, through that process, eventually pick some delegates. but the chaos among missouri republicans is not over yet. these disastrous caucuses are expected to continue going on for weeks. and this is just what it's like in the republican contest now. there have been crazy caucuses in presidential campaigns in the past, but there has never been this much chaos in state after state after state in modern times. from the iowa caucus results being reversed to maine republicans announcing the results before a whole swath that the state had voted, to missouri having the cops break up the caucuses at their own request and then not voting, this has been an absolute mess. remember when you heard wyoming voted back in february, and they

gave wyoming to mitt romney. in that state they have still only allocated about half their delegates so far. they're eking them out over time and today they decided to take one of the santorum delegates away and give them to mitt romney instead. why? has something changed in wyoming? i have no idea. i strain trying to figure it out. i still can't figure out how ron paul won the u.s. virj in islands vote. despite ron paul having won the vote in the u.s. virgin islands, it was mitt romney who was given 7 of the 9 delegates there. so illinois tonight. huge deal? maybe. we can tell you at this hour what the latest results are of the non-binding, non-delegate-related precedence selection which is connected to the process in illinois. and that is that nbc news predicts that mitt romney has won the state of illinois. the total number of the vote in is 27% of the vote, mr. romney

with 52%, his competitor rick santorum with 30% of the vote, ron paul and newt gingrich both in single digits. the closer you look at this thing, i have to say on a night like this, looking at delegate allocation not only in tonight's race but all the other races where it is still going on and still in motion, it does sort of give you a little sympathy for people in the campaigns who say frankly, if you're only reading the headlines here, you don't have any idea how this race is going. people who you think have a shot might not and people who you don't think have a shot might. it's impossible to know what's going on here if delegates are the real gain. frankly, i don't think the republican party has any idea, either. coming up it's john horowitz of the "new york times." mitt romney and rick santorum are expected to speak separate toll their supporters now that mitt romney has been declared the win tonight. we'll bring it all to you. stay with us.

we're looking at a live picture here of mitt romney and his wife ann romney speaking to their supporters in shomberg, illinois, which is west chicago. mr. romney has been declared the winner of the primary in the great state of illinois. the polls closed at 8:00 and it was not yet 9:00, not even an hour before nbc news was able to project that result tonight. usually the way things go in terms of late night election speeches, mrs. romney will do sort of the heavy lifting in terms of thanking the state-based volunteers and staff. she will go through and name all the names and then mr. romney will step up to the podium and make a prepared speech. i should also let you know that as mitt romney is about to speak to his supporters, we are also addressing rick santorum to be addressing his supporters tonight, as well mr. santorum not giving a victory speech, but if past is any prologue, we can expect santorum to be focusing on the next contest, which is this coming saturday in

louisiana. right now the polling in louisiana actually shows mr. santorum having a good chance there. mr. romney has not fared well so far in deep south contests, and the next one of those, whether it's going to be good news for mr. gingrich or even more likely good news for mr. santorum is likely to be louisiana. as we're waiting for mr. romney to take the podium right now, we're joined briefly by john horowitz, political writer for the "new york times." also steve schmitt is with us, strategist for president obama's campaign in 2008. as we wait for mr. romney's remarks, thanks for being with us. >> you bet. >> steve, in terms of the candidate's role tonight, it was an expected win for mr. romney. is this an opportunity to make a national address? what should he be aiming for? >> these tuesday nights are so

important when the candidates, rachel, have an opportunity to get out there, to talk to millions of americans across a multi-network platform, to deliver their message to set up the race ahead. we've seen these candidates have some good nights where they've hit the mark on these speeches and other nights where they've been out of it. every tuesday is a big night. we'll see how he does tonight. >> steve, thank you. you and john, if you could both stick with us, i'd love to get your comments when he's done. we're about to hear mitt romney having been projected the winner of the illinois primary. >> so many friends in this room and across illinois, what a night. thank you, illinois. what a night! [ applause ] >> and, of course, i'd like to congratulate my fellow candidates on a hard fought contest here. i'd like to thank in particular the volunteers and our friends across the state, and frankly, in other states who have been

working hard. i appreciate their unwavering support through good times and bad, and tonight we thank the people of illinois for their vote and for this extraordinary victory. thank you so much. [ applause ] >> and, you know, elections are about choices. and today hundreds of thousands of people in illinois have joined millions of people across the country to join our cause. and this movement began on a small farm in new hampshire on a sunny june day. we were surrounded by a small group of our friends and some supporters and family. we shared a conviction that the america we loved was in trouble and adrift without strong leadership. and three years of barack obama have brought us fewer jobs and shrinking paychecks, but many of us believe we are in danger of losing something more valuable

than our homes and 401(k)s. after years of too many apologies and not enough jobs, historic drops in income and historic highs in gas prices, a president who doesn't hesitate to use all the means necessary to force through obamacare on the american public but leads from behind in the world. it's time to say these words. this word: enough. we've had enough. [ applause ] >> we know our future is brighter than these troubled times. we still believe in america, and we deserve a president who believes in us, and i believe in the american people. [ applause ] >> you know that yesterday i was

giving a speech at university of chicago. not very far from here, not very far from where professor barack obama taught law. it was a speech on economic freedom. and as i was writing the speech, i thought to my lifetime of experiences. i've had a lot of opportunity to learn about the unique genius of america's free enterprise system. it started, of course, with my dad. he didn't graduate from college and he would tell me about his dad who was a contractor. and you know about construction, up and down years. he never quite made it but he never gave up and raised great kids. later i helped start companies. and those began with just an idea, and somehow they made it through the difficult times and were able to create a good return for investors and thousands of jobs.

those jobs helped families buy their first homes. those jobs put kids through school. those jobs helped people live better lives, dream a little bigger. for 25 years, i lived and breathed business and the economy and jobs. i had successes and failures. but each step of the way, i learned a little bit more about what it is that makes our american system so powerful. you can't learn that teaching constitutional law at university of chicago, all right? [ applause ] >> you can't even learn that as a community organizer. the simple truth is that this president doesn't understand the genius of america's economy or the secret of the american economic success story. the american economy is fueled by freedom.

[ applause ] >> the history of the world has shown that economic freedom is the only force that has consistently lifted people out of poverty. it's the only principle that has ever been able to sustain prosperity. but over the last three years, this administration has been engaged in an all-out assault on our freedom. under this president, bureaucrats prevent drilling rigs from going to work in the gulf, they keep coal from being mined, they impede the supply of natural gas, they even tell farmers what their kids can do on their farms. this assault on freedom has kept this so-called recovery from meeting their projections, let alone our expectations. and now, by the way, the president is trying to erase his

record with some new rhetoric. the other day he said this. he said, we are inventors, we are builders, we are makers of things, we are thomas edison, we are the wright brothers. we are still jobs. wait, i missed that. we are steve jobs. that's true. but the problem is, he's still barack obama. [ applause ] >> mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt, mitt! >> you see under barack obama, those pioneers he mentioned would have faced a very difficult time trying to innovate and invent and invest and create and build jobs. you see, under dodd frank, they would have found it almost impossible to get a loan from their community bank.

and of course, the regulators would have shot down the wright brothers for dust pollution. and, of course, the government would have banned thomas edison's light bulb. oh, by the way, they just did, didn't they? [ applause ] >> now, you know that the real cost of these misguided policies, these attacks on economic freedom, this intrusion of the government into our freedom, the cost of that are the ideas that are not pursued and the dreams that aren't realized. and, therefore, all the little businesses that don't get started and the tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of workers who don't get hired. for centuries, the american dream has meant the opportunity to build something new. some of america's greatest success stories are people who

started out with nothing but a good idea and a corner in their garage. but too often today, americans who want to start a business or launch a new venture, they don't see promise and opportunity. they see government standing in the way. and i'm going to change that. we're going to get government out of the way. [ applause ] >> we once built an interstate highway system and the hoover dam. now we can't even build a pipeline. i mean, we once led the world in manufacturing, in exports, investment. today we lead the world in lawsuits. you know, when we replace a law professor with a conservative businessman as president, that's going to end. [ applause ]

>> i think you know this. every great innovation, every world-changing business breakthrough begins with a dream. and nothing is more fragile than a dream. the genius of america is that we nurture those dreams and the dreamers. we honor them. and yes, we reward them. that's part of what's uniquely brilliant about america. but day by day, job-killing regulation by job-killing regulation, bureaucrat by bureaucrat, this president is crushing the dream and the dreamers, and i will make sure that finally ends. [ applause ] >> the proof of the president's failure is seeing how tepid this economic recovery is. this administration thinks the

economy is struggling because the stimulus wasn't large enough. the truth is the economy is struggling because the government is too big. [ applause ] >> you and i know something the president still hasn't learned, even after three years and hundreds of billions of dollars of spending and borrowing. it is not the government that creates our prosperity. the prosperity of america is the product of free markets and free people, and they must be protected and nurtured. [ applause ] >> so tonight was a primary. but november is the general election. and we're going to face a

because i have the experience and the vision to get us out of this mess. [ applause ] >> look, we know what barack obama's vision is. we've been living it these last three years. my vision is very, very different than what his is. i see an america where the prospects for our children will be better than even those that we've enjoyed during our lives. where the pursuit of success by all of us will unite us, not divide us. when a government finally understands -- [ applause ]

>> i see a time where we'll finally have a government who believes it's better for more people to pay less in taxes than for very few to pay a lot more. [ applause ] >> i see an america where the values we pass on to our children are greater than the debts we leave them. [ applause ] >> i see an america where poverty is defeated by opportunity, not enabled by a government check. [ applause ] >> i see an america that is humbled -- excuse me. i see an america that is humble, but it is never humbled that leads but is never led. i see an america that is so

unquestionably strong that no one in the world would ever think of testing the might of our military. [ applause ] >> today we took an important step towards that america. tomorrow we'll take another. each day we move closer, not just to victory but to a better america. join us. join us. together we're going to ensure that america's greatest days are still ahead. thanks, you guys! thank you so much! and god bless the united states of america! thank you! [ applause ] >> former massachusetts governor mitt romney addressing his supporters in schaumburg, illinois tonight having won the illinois primary. nbc news projecting mr. romney

as the winner in illinois tonight. we are awaiting remarks from senator rick santorum who it looks like right now in the results we have is running second in illinois. mr. santorum is not in illinois. he's in his home state of pennsylvania in gettysburg, pennsylvania. apparently a very large crowd turned out to see mr. santorum than what they were expecting. we hear he'll be speaking from the podium in the main room shortly and we'll be bringing that to you live as it happens. still with us right now, steve schmidt, who was a strategist of the campaign of 2008. john horowitz from the "new york times." thank you, gentlemen, for sticking with me. i have not been listening to every speech but i've followed it closely through the evolution of time. is this what we should expect from mr. romney, at the very center being what he believes.

>> i do think it was significant, rachel. he had some new lines in here, some great republican applause lines. he made fun of community organizing, he made fun of law professors, and he had a whole riff about his vision for the country. plainly a general election speech, and i think there was a reason for that. this win, even though it was expected, was a big deal, because tonight we find out rick santorum is not capable of turning over the table in the way he needs to to stop mitt romney from getting this nomination. i think in primary race, while mitt romney doesn't have anything close to 1144 delegates is effectively over because santorum is not able to move to victory in a mid western state and break through. >> to follow up on that, you feel that even if rick santorum pulls off a big win in louisiana, that's not enough to beat mitt romney at this point?

>> there is not enough delegates to deny mitt romney the nomination or win it himself. this thing it going to louisiana, to maryland, to wisconsin, a bunch of states. yes, rick santorum is pennsylvania, but also new york, connecticut, new jersey, states in the northeast. i think we found out tonight that rick santorum just can't damage mitt romney enough to stop it. >> steve schmidt, let me bring you in on this. we had a statement released from the newt gingrich campaign. neither gingrich nor ron paul will be giving a speech tonight. gingrich's speech begins, to defeat president obama, they can't rely on votes 7-1. they have tried to make an asset for themz by the fact that mitt romney has gotten victories like this such as illinois. do you think that matters the cost per vote these guys are

spending? >> no, i actually think it's a ridiculous argument, rachel. in 2008, the john mccain campaign was outspent by $250 million. it's almost impossible to win a presidential election when you're talking about that type of fundraising disparate. -- disparity. if mitt romney goes on to become the nominee, they won't have that kind of fund raising at this time. if rick santorum were somehow able to come back and do it, they will be faced with that kind of fundraising disparity, and it's a huge strategic problem if you're on the republican side of the aisle and you want to be a republican president. >> steve schmidt, john horowitz. i think we'll be checking back in with you as the night wears on. we're hearing from rick santorum shortly. we're live covering the results of the illinois primary. nbc news has projected that mitt romney is the winner of this primary. we'll be looking at some more as

the night wears on. right now, rick santorum due to speak. stay with us.

in the illinois republican

primary tonight, nbc news has projected mitt romney the winner. mitt romney at 49% of the vote, rick santorum, 33%, ron paul and newt gingrich both in distant third and fourth places in single digits right now. you just heard mitt romney speaking to his supporters in illinois. here's rick santorum addressing his supporters in gettysburg, pennsylvania. here's rick santorum. >> thank you, thank you. it is great to be back in pennsylvania. thank you for joining us. [ applause ] >> let me just thank all of you for being here, and i know they're not going to be able to hear me, but i just feel so bad. we have about 1,000, 1500 people that couldn't get in here. we were just overwhelmed by the response here, and i just want to say i feel welcomed back home to pennsylvania, so thank you very, very much. [ applause ]

>> first i just want to congratulate governor romney. i gave him a call a little earlier and congratulated him on winning the state of illinois, but i also want to just thank all the folks in illinois, all -- if you look at what's going to happen tonight, we're going to win downstate, we're going to win central illinois, we're going to win western illinois. we won the areas that conservatives populate and we're happy about that. we're happy about the delegates we're going to get, too. [ applause ] >> i wanted to come here tonight back to pennsylvania, back to a favorite place of mine in pennsylvania, the city and the town of gettysburg. [ applause ] >> obviously, so many memories come to mind when we walk here

in the town and across the street where abraham lincoln finished the gettysburg address at the wills house. and you think about the great elections of our past, and i've gone around this country over the past year now and said this is the most important election in our lifetimes. in fact, i think it's the most important election since the election of 1860. the election of 1860 was about whether these united states, which is what it was mostly referred to prior to the election of 1860, would become the united states. whether it would be a union, a country bound together to build a great and prosperous nation. a nation built on a concept, a concept that we were birthed with, the concept birthed with our founding document of independence. i've said throughout the course of this campaign that while other issues are certainly important: the economy,

joblessness, national security concerns, the family, the issue of life, all of these issues are important, but the foundational issue in this race, the one that is, in fact, the cause of the other maladies that we are feeling, whether it's in the economy, whether it's in the budget crisis that we're dealing with, it all boils down to one word. and that's what's at stake in this election and it's right behind me on that banner and that's the word freedom. [ applause ] >> i was pleased to hear before i came out that governor romney is now adopting that theme as his speech tonight. i am glad we are moving the debate here in the republican party. but i've been focused on this

because i've actually been out talking to people across this country, doing over 1,000 town hall meetings, and i know the anxiety and the concerns that people have in this country about an ever-expanding government, a government that is trying to dictate how we're going to live our lives, trying to order us around, trample our freedoms, whether it's our economic freedoms or our religious liberty. but in addition to trampling that freedom, in addition they're building a dependency, a dependency on government as we see government expand and grow. now almost half the people in this country depend on some sort of federal payment to help them get -- make ends meet in america. and after and if obamacare is implemented, every single american will depend upon the federal government for something that is critical, their health and their life. that's why this election is so important.

this is an election about fundamental and foundational things. this is an election about not who is the best person to manage washington or manage the economy. we don't need a manager, we need someone that's going to pull up government by the roots and throw it out and do something to liberate the private sector in america. that's what we need. [ applause ] >> it's great to have wall street experience. i don't have wall street experience. but i have experience growing up in a small town in western pennsylvania, growing up in a steel town, growing up in public housing, in apartments, and seeing how men and women of this country scraped and clawed

because they had the opportunity to climb the ladder of success in america. a lot of those folks out there today feel like nobody in washington and no one in this debate is really talking about them. that's why this is a wonderful movement as i travel around this country. and everywhere i go, i see people, people in work clothes, folks with children who are maybe not getting the educational opportunities that they had hoped for so they could climb that ladder of success. people who are looking for someone to voice their concerns about how this economy is going to turn around for them, not just for those at the top of the income ladder. that's why i've talked about a manufacturing plan, an energy plan, someone who believes that if we create opportunities by, yes, cutting taxes but reducing the oppressive regulatory burden that this administration has put on businesspeople and people who

want to drill for energy, you need someone who has got a strong and clear record that can appeal to voters all across this country. and someone who you can trust. someone that you know when they say they're going to do something, they're not saying it because, well, that happens to be the popular theme of the moment, but someone who has a long track record of deep convictions, someone who is going to go out and stand and fight because it's not just what the pollster tells them what to say or what's on the teleprompter. i don't happen to have one here tonight. [ applause ] >> because they know in their gut from their life experiences,

from living in america, that this is what america needs and america wants. they want someone who is not going to go to washington, d.c. because they want to be the most powerful person in the world to manage washington. they want someone who is going to take that power and give it back to the people of this country. [ applause ] >> there is one candidate in this race who can go out and make that contrast with the current occupant of the white house. someone who has a track record of being for you, being for limited government, being for solutions that empower people on the biggest issues of the day, whether it's obamacare, romneycare, they're interchangeable --

[ applause ] >> we need someone who understands that the solution to the problem with almost 1/17 of the economy is not government control over that sector economy but your control over that sector of the economy. [ applause ] >> we need someone who understands that we need to grow our energy supplies here in this country, and we need someone you can trust who, when in good times and bad, when times were tough and people thought, well, all this oil and gas and coal in the ground is all a source of carbon dioxide and we can't take that out of the ground because there is a finite supply and it could damage our environment and cause global warming.

when the climate -- when those who professed manmade global warming and climate science convinced many, many republicans, including two who are running for president on the republican ticket, mitt romney and newt gingrich. but there was one who said, i know this isn't climate science, this is political science. [ applause ] >> and this is another attempt of those who want to take power away from you and control your access to energy, your utilization whether it's in your car or in your home of energy, because they are better to make these decisions about how you use energy than you do.

that's what they believe. and, unfortunately, just like in health care, governor romney and speaker gingrich went along with the ride, and guess what? when the climate changed, they changed their position. and now they're all for drilling and they're all for oil and gas and coal. i was for it because it was the right thing to do then. i'll be for it tomorrow and the next day and the next day. i'm not going to change with the climate. [ applause ] >> this is the first day, this is the launch that we wanted in pennsylvania, to launch our campaign here in pennsylvania. we got five weeks to a big win and a big delegate sweep for pennsylvania. [ applause ]

>> i come as a son of pennsylvania, someone who grew up in western pennsylvania. everyone knows the story, i hope, of my grandfather and my dad coming to pennsylvania to work in those coal mines in somerset county. i learned everything, everything about freedom and opportunity and hard work from growing up with folks who worked in the mills and the mines in western pennsylvania. so when i speak, and i speak from the heart, in the back of my mind are the pictures of those men and women who worked and scraped and clawed so their children and grandchildren could, yes, have a better quality of life. yes, maybe even go to college and not have to work in tough manual labor. but most importantly, they fought for the things that people in this battlefield just down the road fought for.

they fought for big things, things that america has always stood for, that ronald reagan referred to with that shining city on the hill, the things that i'm fighting for today. the reason karen and i decided, in the face of having seven children ages 20 to 3, it's not exactly the best time to run for president of the united states when you have children 20 to 3, but karen and i felt compelled. we felt compelled because as ronald reagan said in one of his great speeches, we didn't want to have to sit down one day and look at the eyes of our children and our children's children and describe to them an america where once men were free. we don't want to be that generation that lost the torch of freedom.

that's why karen and the kids behind me, all of them born in pennsylvania, all of those folks who understand the greatness of our state and the greatness of the values of this state, all of us understand what was sacrificed in the mills and on the battlefields. and that's why we must go out and fight this fight. that's why we must go out and nominate someone who understands, not because some pollster tells them, because they know in their gut just like you do, all across this country, you know in your gut big things are adrift and at stake in this election. so i ask each and every one of you to join us, to saddle up like reagan did in the cowboy

movies, to saddle up, take on that responsibility over the next five weeks. we're going to head to louisiana from here. we're feeling very, very good about winning louisiana on saturday, i might add. [ applause ] >> we're heading to louisiana for the rest of the week and then we're going to be back here in pennsylvania and we're going to pick up a whole boatload of delegates and close this gap and on to victory. thank you all very much! god bless you! thank you! >> pennsylvania senator rick santorum in his home state in gettysburg, pennsylvania, with his family and addressing his supporters, coming in second in the illinois primary tonight, explaining he was looking forward to a five-week campaign and a big win in pennsylvania,

saying he felt confident about the prospects of winning in louisiana this coming saturday. the host of andrea mitchell and nbc's andrea mitchell joins us along with steve schmidt, the campaigner for 2008. mitt romney campaigning against obama and obama only, santorum campaigning against mitt romney, almost no mention of barack obama at all. >> i think it says rick santorum is very much an underdog. he has not proved he can win decisively outside the south. illinois was a long shot for him. he didn't organize well enough to have delegates in all the congressional districts. he lost the chance even in four congressional districts.

if he had been more competitive in illinois, that really would have slowed any momentum that mitt romney has. i think romney going into this next part of the calendar, with the exception of louisiana where i don't think he can compete against rick santorum with all the evangelicals he has there, mitt romney has a chance to not seal the deal in terms of the delegate chance but to try to gain that inevitability. >> steve schmidt, listening to mr. santorum tonight attacking mitt romney as a manager who does what he is told, who has no core, does what the political climate tells him to believe, is he building a bain-centered campaign? >> i think one of the things you heard rick santorum talk about tonight which i think is intended to insulate him from calls to get out of the race or to accept aside is that he's

looking forward to the pennsylvania primary five weeks from now. giving no indication that he's planning to get out of the race. the gloves are off. he's going to continue to make a tough case, he's going to continue to mike an idealogical case attacking mitt romney from his right. his strategy is to deny mitt romney the number of delegates he needs to be nominated under the hope that rick santorum in his mind the more conservative of the two can come up with a strategy at the convention if there's not enough delegates to nominate. >> nbc's andrea mitchell and steve schmidt, strategists for the campaign of 2008. thank you both for your time tonight. we'll be right back.

in the illinois republican primary tonight, projections say that mitt romney has won. mitt romney below the total vote with 48%, rick santorum with 35, ron paul and newt gingrich both in single digits. we've heard from mitt romney and rick santorum tonight. we don't expect to hear from either mr. paul or mr. gingrich. neither of them is planning on giving a speech. it's interesting, though, mitt romney putting bain capital, his experience at bain right in the center of his campaign. rick santorum not apparently working from notes, certainly not working from a teleprompter, coming right back at mitt romney saying america does not need a manager in washington, d.c. we need somebody to pull up government by the roots and throw it out in case the