the spectacle of elite law enforcement officers making way for ducklings at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. come on! melt your frozen heart! come on. best new thing in the world today. that kuz ddoes it for us tonigh. we have breaking news tonight from sanford, florida, from trayvon martin was kim lle. the police chief has just received a vote of no confidence from the city commission. the man who has the exclusive power to fire that police chief is my first guest. >> i just want this guy arrested and so he can be brought to justice. >> the controversial shooting of 17-year-old trayvon martin. >> the alleged shooter a self-appointed neighborhood watch leader remains free. >> this man, it is unbelievable to me, has not been arrested. >> this young man was walking home. >> yes. >> minding his business. >> trayvon was not the aggressor. >> he was approached by zimmerman. >> zimmerman claims

self-defense. >> he kept pursuing trayvon martin. >> what is zimmerman standing his ground for? >> questions are being raised about the florida law that might protect the shooter. >> the justice department is looking into it. >> naacp is calling for sanford police chief, bill lee, to resign. >> he's not talking. >> they decided to be the judge and jury. >> it's no longer just a sanford police department issue. >> a grand jury will investigate. >> why didn't they take a background check on the man who had just killed this kid in cold blood? >> questions raised in the past about the conduct of the sanford police department. >> they did a background check on trayvon martin. >> my son is murdered. my son is not with us no more. nothing can bring him back. breaking news tonight in the case of trayvon martin. with the outrage building across

the country tonight, sanford city commission passed a vote of no confidence in police chief bill lee. in tonight's meeting the vote was 3-2 against chief lee. and one member of the commission called for chief lee's immediate resignation. >> because of the situation being so poorly handled and because there's a no confidence level in our police chief here locally and statewide, nationally, and even internationally, i would ask the chief to step down. >> joining me now for an exclusive interview is the man who will decide chief lee's fate. the city manager of sanford, florida, norton bonaparte jr. thank you for joining me tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> the case you just heard from that city commissioner for chief lee resigning, do you think that is -- those points are valid

points and reasons for him to resign? >> well, let me start by saying that what happened was a tragedy. the loss of life, the loss of trayvon martin was regrettable and as a parent, i can't even begin to think of the loss and the pain his family must be going through. i think it's very important we always remember the young man that had a promising future is now not with us. and that's the very painful reality of it. in terms of the city commission's vote this evening of a no confidence in chief lee, i have stated that i believe we need to have an independent investigation. not only into just the shooting that took place, but also the actions of the sanford police department. i've stated that i want to know, as the city manager, did the sanford police do things they shouldn't have done? or did they not do things that they should have done? that's the basis on the information that i would make a determination on moving forward with the sanford police department. >> do you think that those three commissioners who voted the vote of no confidence tonight cast the correct vote? >> i think they voted their

conscience. >> now, you participated in a meeting in the -- with the justice department in washington about this case? >> yes, i did. >> and tell us about that meeting, how it went. >> it was very fruitful. we had a meeting with tom perez, assistant attorney general. we asked that they do an investigation. the mayor, mayor triplet, as well as congresswoman brown and i met last friday. one of the things that came out of that meeting was a commitment to seek the attorney general's involvement. we acceptability we sent a letter to him and got a meeting yesterday with their staff. we were encouraged by their agreement to come and look. the city of sanford is open to an investigation. it's only fair to the citizens of sanford as well as the rest of the country that an outside, independent review be done of this situation. >> mr. bonaparte, you issued a statement last week about what you called frequently asked questions about the case. i want to read that. you said in answer to the question why was george

zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting, your document says that mr. zimmerman provided a statement claiming that he acted in self-defense, which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony. what physical evidence and what testimony supported his claim of self-defense? >> if i could make a correction. what i issued was a statement saying that there had been frequently asked questions about what has gone on. i asked the police chief to provide responses. so what you've read was written by the police chief. chief lee. i did not write it. i simply passed on information that i thought it was important to get out to the public. the responses were prepared by chief lee. >> and did you read it? are you satisfied with it? >> i think there's some questions. i have some questions. i know members of the commission have questions. that's why we've asked for an outside review. >> he did say in here that by florida statute, law enforcement was prohibited from making an arrest. that's apparently a reference to the stand your ground law. there is an inconsistency in

here. i know as you've pointed out that this is not your -- these are not your statements. but it is something that you solicited from chief lee. chief lee says that the department has not released any rendition of the events of the evening to anyone other than the office of the state attorney. in the very same document, chief lee says, mr. zimmerman's statement was that he had lost sight of trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked. now, that is a rendition of events. it exists in the very same document where chief lee maintains that they have not released a rendition of events. that is zimmerman's specific rendition of those events. does it trouble you that chief lee would -- would give zimmerman's version of the story

and then in the same document claim they're not giving any version of the story? >> i think you've raised one of the questions that we have. certainly that information provided, we did since that information provided did release the 911 tapes over the weekend. so the document that you're referring to, while it is still on the city's website, is dated and was released some time ago. >> i want to go to one more of these questions. and i recognize that it's not your document. it's chief lee. but you will decide whether chief lee stays employed in this city. and i just want to get the things that you might be concerned about in making that decision. the question that is answered -- the question is posed, why did mr. zimmerman have a firearm in his possession while acting in the role of a neighborhood watch member? now, i would submit to you that that is a highly prejudicial question. it assumes that he was acting in the role of a neighborhood watch member. i don't know of any evidence that he was acting as a neighborhood watch member.

that is simply something he says. and mr. lee, chief lee, says in this report to the public in sanford, he said, the training provided by law enforcement agencies to neighborhood watch organizations stresses no contact surveillance of suspicious situations and notifying police. there is no evidence, absolutely no evidence, that mr. zimmerman received any such training. so why would chief lee be referring to training when talking about mr. zimmerman? >> there are two points. one is the question. the frequently asked question is the question that we're being asked. it isn't the question that we're posing. but we have been asked that question. why was he acting as a neighborhood watch person when, in fact, he may not have been. >> just one more thing. it's just about the nature of this document that you requested from your police chief and your police chief submitted to you and then to the public. i think this goes to the decision you have to make about

whether to fire him or not. chief lee says about mr. zimmerman, this is very important phrasing here, about mr. zimmerman, he says, he was, in fact, on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed mr. martin in the community and called the sanford police department. in fact. how does chief lee know that it is a fact that this guy was on a personal errand? how did he determine that that is a fact? just to abbreviate this, that strikes me as a highly prejudicial finding without any basis of evidence or proof that the chief would then present to you as a fact. >> that's based upon their interview with mr. zimmerman. >> but -- now let's go to the question. can you find it in any way you view the way your city should be policed that this chief who would issue this report to you

and to the public that you find inconsistent, that you see holes in, under a situation like this where you needed the best possible offer to the public of the truth as we know it, can you see any reason that he should be continuing in this job and is there any reason you see tonight why you should not fire him tonight? >> i stated that i think it should be reviewed by law enforcement experts. that's the point that i think. i need to have facts. you've pointed out some questions. there are certainly questions. this was all regrettable. there are certainly questions. no doubt about it. i want to have an independent law enforcement agency look at the situation, look at how the sanford police department conducted their investigation, and then share with me their analysis of the work done by the sanford police department. based on that information, i'll be glad to make a decision sfwl mr. bonaparte, would you consider suspending him in this tense time under these conditions when he has obviously

lost the confidence of your city commission. >> certainly there are options for me to consider. >> i'm joined here at the table by reverend al sharpton. he's going to be down there tomorrow at the commission. i'd like him to have a chance to speak with you. >> certainly. >> first of all, i think it is good that the commission voted. but i think it is clearly the responsibility of you and others to deal with the fact if this man cannot do his job that you put the safety and the tranquility of the city at stake keeping him there. clearly, there's enough questions as you raise, mr. bonaparte, that are so troubling, i don't see how he can continue running that force. but i also want to caution that let's not take a battle for the war and take our eye off of zimmerman. the desire of the family is the prosecution and arrest of mr. zimmerman. it should not end with chief lee, but it certainly should start there. >> i think that the reverend and

i certainly agree. what we wapt as a community more than anything else since we cannot bring back trayvon martin is that justice be served. that's the main point that we would like to see. that's why we asked the state's attorney's office to expedite any review. state attorney says he's empowering grand jury as of april 10th. unfortunately that's far away. but i think that with the reverend, we agree that what we want as a community is that justice be done in this situation. >> but what we don't agree is that you can't wait till april 10th and have chief lee, who has all of these unanswered questions still open, operating as a chief of police in that city and operating over what goes on in that city while this is going on. he must step aside. you cannot ask your city and the nation to wait for a grand jury that doesn't even convene till april 10th and then no one knows how long it will operate. you can't ask everybody to let chief lee continue to operate when all of these unanswered questions are there. he should step aside while this examination is going on. >> that's certainly on the

table, reverend. but i, again, think that as a city manager i would want to have an outside review that helps me from a law enforcement perspective say, yes, this is where the sanford police did not do their job. >> but, mr. bonaparte, a law enforcement expert can tell you whether he broke the law or whether he did something unethical. because there's possible criminal stuff that could have been done. cover-ups. that's what law enforcement does. you run the city. how can he manage -- how can you manage the city with a chief that has such outstanding questions? i'm talking about the management of day-to-day law enforcement in the city. has nothing to do with the legalities. nothing to do with what did or didn't happen in the case. how can he operate the police department given that your own commission has voted and given that there's so many outstanding questions that you as an administrator would have to say, until these questions are answered, how can i depend on you to do your job? >> those are the conversations

i'll be having with chief lee. >> mr. bonaparte, i want to thank you very much for joining us tonight. reverend sharpton is going to be down there tomorrow. he may get a chance to talk to you and possibly meet with you down there. >> i'd welcome that very much, reverend. >> i think you can understand the pressure that's building on this. i understand in the position you're in you may be making different decisions on a day-to-day basis as we saw from the city commission today. i do hope you take into consideration that vote of no confidence and speak to the city commissioners about exactly why they cast those votes. >> i think the reverend was right. the tragedy took place. where we want to get is to justice. i certainly respect his opinion as well as those that are saying that chief lee needs to step down. >> well, i look forward to probably talking to you tomorrow. let me say this. i would think not only you have to consider what we raised tonight. if chief lee has respect for the city he served, he would do you and the city a favor by voluntarily stepping aside until all these things are answered.

even he would have to admit these questions beg for some answers. and if he loves the city and supports the confidence he's been given in the past, he should voluntarily step aside until these issues are resolved. >> mr. bonaparte, one quick technical question before we go. is it within your power to fire the chief at any time? is there any contractual or civil service requirement that would in any way delay your ability to separate him from that job instan tansly? >> the chief as well as other departments work at the pleasure of the city manager. >> it's all up to you. mr. bonaparte, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you for the opportunity. coming up, we're going to have more questions about the police procedure in this case as new details emerge on what they did do and exactly what they did not do. the strange things that they did not do on the night of the killing. and eventually, later, we will get to some politics here where

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sanford, florida, says it has no confidence in its police chief. we're going to dig into all of the police failures of that investigation next with former nypd detective eugene o'neil. [ tom ] we invented the turbine business right here in schenectady.

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it is so much corruption going on in the police department. and they as crooked as a barrel of fish hooks. and that's crooked. >> that was part of a town hall meeting today in sanford, florida, led by the naacp. giving residents the opportunity to talk about their experiences with the sanford police department. joining me now, university of miami law professor scott sunby. professor of police studies and law at john jay college of criminal justice, eugene o donl, also a former nypd police officer and prosecutor. and back with us, the reverend al sharpton. professor sunby, i want to go to a line that's in the police chief's report. the so-called frequently asked

questions answers. where he says, by florida statute, law enforcement was prohibited from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at that time. can you deconstruct that for us? >> yes. what i think the chief was trying to say, and perhaps misunderstood in how he said it, is that any arrest, before you can make it, you have to have probable cause that the person committed the crime. and so to say that you can't arrest someone without probable cause is correct. but what his statement suggests is that if a suspect says that they stood their ground and there's any evidence that might corroborate it, that you can't take a look at all the other facts and still find that probable cause exists. if i understand chief lee's interpretation correctly, it would allow anyone who is suspected of a homicide to say,

hey, listen, i stood my ground. i thought i was in danger. and now you can't arrest me. and -- and the probable cause determination is really looking at all of the facts, not only the suspect's statement, but also witnesses, 911 calls, and deciding off of all that if probable cause exists. so only if there's no probable cause is it prohibited. but that's true in all types of crimes. >> i mean, simply put, it sounds like the chief is trying to raise a higher level than probable cause. professor o'donnell? i've always wanted to say that. >> it says the police are prohibited from making an arrest. obviously in this case there's a young person lying dead. he would be the best witness. the likelihood is if trayvon was alive there would be an arrest. because you would hear his account. all the more reason why the police should act with urgency and deliberation in trying to get every available fact. it's not like the csi shows where some day you'll find out. they should be immediately asking this guy what happened

and locking him into a statement and trying to get to the bottom of what happened. in the name of justice, it's the highest duty the police have is to try to get the facts when the victim cannot speak for himself. >> reverend al, your reaction to what we just heard from mr. bonaparte, it seems like every time we get into this, you feel like you're making a little headway in the information. you keep running into frustration. >> which is why there's frustration in the community. these things all double talk. for the police chief to say as stated the bar is so high, he almost is saying i have to have a conviction to make an arrest. there's a young man dead. you have 911 tape. you don't even need the witnesses. what he said on the 911 tapes clearly does not lead towards self-defense. so you have enough probable cause there to proceed. say, wait a minute, you proceeded. you were told not to proceed.

you are not really a neighborhood watch guy anyway. and you killed somebody. his story is the guy hit me and all that. tell it to the judge. we hear it every day in our community. that's what you do. he's not the judge and the jury. now all of a sudden you give all of these excuses as to why zimmerman has to have certain privileges that you don't give trayvon martin. that is unacceptable and that is why this man needs to step aside and zimmerman should be arrested. >> eugene o'donnell, i want to draw on your experience at crime scenes responding as a police officer. you later worked as a prosecutor here in new york city. the police reports which we've been looking at today have some fascinating things to me. i really -- we've got to wait for the autopsy report. but, for example, trayvon was found it sha-- quoting the poli report -- laying face down on the ground. now, that immediately raises the

question of where -- where is the exit wound? where is the entrance wound? is there an exit wound? we're being told that he was shot straight in the chest. but when the body is found laying face down, you've got some immediate questions about exactly where this bullet was fired. >> the police appeared to leave the playing field, if you read the reports. they got into the business of first aid which is obviously crucial when life is in the balance. their job is also to find the truth. there's actually a part on one of those police reports where the second officer specifically says i did not talk to mr. zimmerman about this. >> that's timothy smith. >> as though he avoided. >> i'm going to quote him. he says, at no point did i question zimmerman about the incident that had taken place. that's timothy smith who was the guy working zimmerman. there was another officer who was taking care of trayvon. this one's working zimmerman, doesn't ask him a question. >> police work 101 is, again, the person who can speak best about this is lying dead. you have another individual. you're going to try to lock him in before he has a chance to create some varnish on his story or to think about invoking his constitutional rights. that's fundamental police work,

trying to get his account then and there. it appears if you read that report the police had some inexplicable disinterest, almost, to try to get to the bottom of this case. >> yeah. reverend al, we've been asking people, asking questions what about the cell phone. trayvon had a cell phone. would it be standard procedure in a situation like that, you see this kid's cell phone, to see -- press some buttons, see what was the most recent number dialed, things like that? they don't even know who this kid is. they're saying for over a day this a john doe. if you have a john doe with a cell phone, isn't that an awful lot of information. >> if police work is anything it's doing justice in a homicide case when somebody who cannot speak for himself is there. there were plenty of facts available immediately. the whole idea of his involvement as an armed community watch person having been told not to get involved, gets involved, there's lots of reasons to have probable cause to make an arrest. this law obviously is a ridiculous law. the lawmakers who made it should be held accountable for doing it. >> but even as you read this law, as a law professor, you

still see enough probable cause to clear that hurdle on this crime scene? >> as reverend sharpton said, probable cause in our legal system a relatively low standard. you can make an arrest. by the way, this guy is accused of a homicide. there's a theoretical threat to the community. there is an urgency to do that. that can always be -- those charges can always be dropped later. it's not some gigantic standard. is there probable cause in this case? when you take the facts that were immediately available there's clearly probable cause in this case. even though the law is a goofty law that creates gray areas that shouldn't be there the police should have acted courage sli and made an arrest then and there. >> what's even more appalling, not only did they not make an arrest, they let the guy go with a gun. with the murder weapon. you can go. and they start becoming his defense spokesmen. in these documents that you read to mr. bonaparte, they start advocating on behalf of zimmerman.

i mean, it is outrageous. you have the police chief saying this is what zimmerman was facing. this is, in fact, what happened. how tdoes he know that? he did not talk to people -- he did not talk to witnesses. there's no corroboration. but he states this as fact. he, in fact, became the spokesman for mr. zimmerman. >> a gun like that, you want to take it over. you want to take ballistic tests on it. you want to figure out exactly what the range of fire was, how far away was this from the entrance wound. none of that's being done. >> full court press then and there to get the facts. to lock in the stories. the state's attorney should be involved in this. there's an urgency to do it. i don't understand why at this late date the city manager and other people are still trying to figure out what went wrong. most of this, almost all of it appears to have gone wrong. there should have been a lot quicker action taken to make it right. >> reverend al, you're on a plane at dawn going down there tomorrow. what do you hope to accomplish? >> we're going to keep a real national attention on this. we're going to have a very large rally tomorrow night. the family is going to be there. they just left -- did our show

tonight. and many of our leaders around the country are coming in, including elected officials. we're just ordinary people. we cannot let this go out of the public eye. the only way i feel that we can get the justice department and the state prosecution to take it seriously is they know people are not going to be angry for a week and move on. i think that the sanford police felt they could keep this inside of sanford. when attorney crump got into it for people and like me and took it outside of it it's to keep the attention there. and we're going to keep it there. >> we're going to hear from you tomorrow night. again, reverend al sharpton, you gene o'donnell and scott sundby. a march tonight in new york city. a march tomorrow with reverend sharpton in sanford, florida. mark thompson and goldie taylor will be my guests.

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tonight people marched in new york city to protest the killing of trayvon martin. tomorrow thousands are expected to march in sanford, florida, where the killing happened. goldie taylor was there at the march. mark thompson will be in florida. they will join me here tonight. [ female announcer ] with swiffer dusters,

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if trayvon had been alive, he would be right here on these steps with you guys rallying for justice. trayvon martin was yhuman. trayvon martin did matter. i just want new york to know that we're not going to stop until we get justice for trayvon. >> we need this kind of support. our son was not committing any crime. our son is your son. i want you guys to stand up for justice and stand up for what's right. this is not about a black and white thing. this is about a right and wrong thing. justice for trayvon. >> trayvon martin's parents speaking at a rally in new york tonight. with me now, goldie taylor, who was at that hoodie rally tonight

and the host of make it plain, mark thompson. thank you both for joining me tonight. i had the hoodie on all day. at about 9:25 as i was heading down here, without even thinking about changing it, i realized, you know what? i feel like a prosecutor tonight. i better dress like a prosecutor. and -- and, you know, that's the way i'm feeling about it. i just want to get your reactions from what you heard so far. what you heard from mr. bonaparte, the city manager. he has the authority to fire this police chief right now tonight before he goes to bed. you've listened to him. he's approaching this very carefully. what do you think, goldie? more carefully than he has to? >> i think much more carefully than he has to. i think in this environment i certainly understand the abundance of caution on the one hand. but on the other, how much information do you need to understand that a police chief has lost his bond, his trust

with the community? how much information do you need to understand that he's incab incapable of running this police department in an effective way and partnering with all of the communities who he's sworn to serve and protect. so i don't know how much information you need for that. at least there should be a suspension until -- until all of the facts are in. at the very least. he has enough information for that. >> mark, what we learned in police work 30 years ago is community relations is as important as crime control. >> sure. >> and you cannot have crime control without community relations. you have a complete failure and breakdown of community relations in that community with this police department and that police chief. this is the kind of moment where no matter what kind of job he's done before, and we have plenty of evidence he hasn't done a great job before, but you've reached a point of this particular chief is now dysfunctional in that position. >> i agree. and wesh reported tonight when

they broke this story about the commission vote lines that if the city manager, mr. bonaparte, does not make a move, then he is somehow held accountable, i guess, under their charter for anything bill lee does from now on. i heard his very measured approach in speaking to you tonight. but i can't imagine, if that is true, if what wesh is reporting is true, i can't imagine why in the world he would want to risk his credibility or his job trying to be polite to bill lee. we know what's really gone on here and a move needs to be made. >> let's remember what bill lee has said about this. by the way, the wallpaper of this show now is the stand your ground states. we just keep it on the wall. these are the states where you guys want to dress like that, your lives are in danger in those states. under the people who believe. remember, these stand your ground laws are the result of a political movement with

supporters who believe that there isn't enough shooting and killing by civilians of suspicious people. that's why they want these laws. to be able to do this. >> i think that's -- i think that's exactly right. but, you know, a lot of people have put this in a racial context. that when they passed this law in florida in 2005, the opponents said this will allow or give license to racially motivated killings. and so here we are today. >> by the way, those opponents included police chiefs. all of the states saying don't give these vigilantes these powers. don't do it. let us do this job. >> absolutely. i raised my son in one of those 22 states. i got to tell you that, you know, i had dinner with him -- >> you live in one right now, georgia. >> i live in one right now. i saw him for dinner this evening. i understood that he now lives, you know, at a very far distance from me. i'm not able to be with him. i'm not able to guide him directly. so when he comes in contact with

police officers or other people of authority, he needs instruction. he needs to know how to comport himself so that he, you know, doesn't put himself really in harm's way. that's a conversation that we've had and that i'm going to tell you that every black parent i know has had with their sons. and so tonight when we went down to union square, everybody, you know, out wearing what we call hoodies or hooded sweatshirts, it was really about saying that we understand because we have sons, too. and so we understand what these parents are -- >> to go back to this police chief, last week, march 17th. it seems the heat on this case quadruples every day. so the difference between where bill lee thought he was on march 17th and where he knows he is tonight with a vote of no confidence from his city commission, he said this on march 17th. i'm sure if george zimmerman had the opportunity to relive sunday, february 26th, he'd

probably do things differently. then here's the killer line. within that same phrasing. next sentence. i'm sure trayvon would, too. now, i've studied all of the evidence in this case. i have studied those 911 calls. i've studied these police reports. there is no evidence anywhere here to suggest that trayvon should have done anything different. anything different. and bill lee has all that evidence. >> those who killed emmitt till, left him missing for three days, bill lee kept trayvon missing from his family for three days. not only did he say that, he also said, if you recall, i'm looked at unfairly. i'm paraphrasing. because i'm a white man in uniform. as if to invoke some type of sympathy or empathy from his situation. >> like you won't believe me because i'm a white man in uniform. you know, there's plenty of historical reason for that. plenty. >> right, right, right. so, again, i think it's a

travesty that he's still in that position. and as long -- reverend sharpton and i were on the phone late last night. this is a meeting. we're on television. everybody knows that. certain stories have a shelf life. reverend sharpton and i agree, if they don't arrest george zimmerman any time soon, this story may overshadow every other store. mitt romney can't get the coverage he wants. the republicans can't get the coverage they want. this story may overshadow every story. it's a tribute to his honor, to his memory. white conservatives called my show tonight. mark, i'm a white conservative but i, too, am trayvon martin. everyone knows if you kill a lamb we will do nothing but utter his name forever. >> this line he says in fl about i'm sure trayvon would, too, meaning do things differently, t too. goldie, there are a lot of people out there who think that.

who think that, well, you know, he shouldn't have done this. he shouldn't have run if he did run. we're not even sure he did run. we have this evidence from his 16-year-old girlfriend on the phone with him saying i told him to run but he didn't want to run. >> right. >> he's smart enough to know if i run this could be worse. i don't know what this guy's up to. this is a poisonous notion. this is a poisonous notion that bill lee advances that i'm sure trayvon would have done something differently, too. >> it was meant to be just that. it was meant to poison the memory of trayvon. so that he could save his own position. i think that this is about protecting the sanford police department. it's been about that from day one. the night that trayvon martin was murdered, bill lee had no idea, no idea, that people around this country would take to social networks and speak out about it. he had no idea that that kind of furor would come right to his city commission tonight. he had no idea that he would be

the subject of this national talk show tonight. he had no idea that people like al sharpton and mr. thompson here would be at his door asking real questions. and so he thought he could send home someone who had killed, shot in the chest, a 17-year-old innocent black teenager, that he could send him home that night and everybody could sleep well. >> in the history of this territory, i've seen even more obscure cases rise to the level of bringing down a police commissioner. i wrote a book about a case in boston a long time ago that wasn't being covered at all. when that story, the power of that story finally got out in book form, it brought down the boston police commissioner. he was out of a job. it was a harder thing to do in those days without any of this kind of media help. this is not going to stop. that's sort of the message that has to be delivered to florida. it isn't going to stop. if you set some grand jury date for out here that doesn't mean we just all go cover romney

between now and then. >> it's not going to stop. i think too many eyes are on this entire process for this to die. and so not only are people looking for a more full investigation, whether that's at the state or the federal level, but they're looking for an arrest. now, no one has said, at least in this public square, that there should be a conviction. what we have said is, we want to see all of the facts. then let justice have her day in court. that's fair. >> if -- if he had hit him with his car, he would have been arrested for vehicular manslaughter. if he killed him with his car. you put a bullet in him, and these police send you home with your gun loaded. >> and they don't even drug or alcohol test him. do we know where he is? where is he? >> he's in hiding. >> where has he disappeared? >> he isn't sleeping in a jail cell tonight. but i'll tell you what the real difference is here. it is the race of the victim. when you look at the stats, if you kill a nonwhite person, you

are less likely to be charged. less likely to fwo go to trial. less likely to be convicted. and less likely to get a very severe sentence. if you kill, however, a white victim, that goes up by 11 times. and that is the difference in death row today. it is almost -- almost irrelevant. almost irrelevant that zimmerman is either white or hispanic or both. what is most relevant is the value that this society seems not to be able to place on the value of black lives. particularly on black men. >> the question we have to ask ourselves, can we mature enough as a country to elect the first african-american president, and yet not protect our own children? >> we are not there yet. mark thompson of sirius xm radio and goldie taylor, thank you both very much for joining me tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you. we are going to turn to politics here at some point, i think. the romney campaign had a silly day of damage control after a

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test. test. test. just to recap the news we made here tonight on "the last word." in the wake of his handling of the trayvon martin case sanford

police chief bill lee lost a vote of no confidence by the sanford city commission tonight by a vote of 3-2. the decision to fire chief lee now rests solely with city manager norton bonaparte, who joined me exclusively earlier in the show. instead of making a decision here tonight, he told me repeatedly that he wants an independent investigate into how the police department handled this case before he decides whether to fire chief bill lee. but he is considering that. he also said he is considering suspending chief lee. and mr. bonaparte did admit to me that the report that chief lee gave him and the public does have very troubling inconsistencies in it. we will have much more on all of this tomorrow here on "the last word." if you missed our interview with mr. bonaparte or any part of the show, it will all be up on our blog very shortly.