the supreme game changer, let's play "hardball." >> good evening, i'm chris ma matthews in boston. today, only 36% of americans approve of the law compared to 47% who disapprove. according to the "new york times" cbs poll. there was a land sliep in 2010, and now supporters and opponents gathered and the supreme court will determine the fate of the law and to some extent the presidential election. we'll hear from both sides, and could it be better politically to lose this case? some believe that a loss would

inspire their side, democrats or republicans, to work harder in the election. rick santorum has it out with a new york times reporter and then brags about how tough he was with the "new york times." and now we're getting george zimmerman's account of what happened that night. and finally, let me finish with the high stakes action in the supreme court this week. we begin with the supreme court with nbc's pete williams. what got done today? what could you see get suicided? >> a very important piece of underbrush was cleared away. if any of the justices were reluctant in an election year, they had an off ramp today. the question is do the challengers have to come back.

congress passed a law that says you cannot challenge a federal tax before it goes into effect. you have to pay a penalty that's reported on your income tax form, collected by the irs, based on your income, and some lower courts said this is a tax, come back in two years. it seems none of the justices think this is a show stopper. i didn't hear a single justice that thinks it's a federal tax so they're going to go on tomorrow on the constitutionality of the core of the law, the so called individual mandate and requirement that everyone buy health insurance. >> let me ask you about that, if that is portrayed as a tax, wouldn't that give the court a tremendous amount of scope in allowing it's constitutionality? >> yes, there is no doubt that the government is arguing both sides of this issue. today, they say for the purposes of this federal law, this isn't

a tax, but tomorrow they'll be back here arguing not only is is it allowed under the commerce clause, but it was passed under the broad taxes authority. it seems like a head snapper. it a nuanced argument the government is making that the penalty itself isn't a tax, but the law was passed under the broad taxes authority. that didn't go well today with the only justice that asked about it, who suggested it was hypocritical for the government to make that argument. none of the other justices jumped in to make that claim. i think that means they're just going to wait until tomorrow. of course tomorrow the main argument the government is making is that congress has this commerce clause power to do this under the constitution's grant "to regulate congress" but they have a fall back argument with the power under the broad taxes

authority as well. >> it beginning to sound like etch-a-sketch. yesterday it was a penalty, today it's a tax. thank you, the arguments today were inside the court, but the action was outside. let's look at the scene there just this morning. >> as a reminder, i'm giving out tickets for today's argument only. and i'm giving out tickets for the first 60 seating to hear the entire argument. >> aca serves us all. >> care for you, care for me, care for every family. >> we have cofounder of the tea party pay tryouts among property test ters today. and we have ezekiel emanuel. he served the obama administrator and helped craft the affordable health care act

in court today. he informs the courtroom as well. let me ask you first of all, let me go to jenny beth. >> we want them to find the rule is unconstitutional the government has no businessman dating and forcing every single person to purchase a product simply because we live and breathe. >> so what they -- >> it would say we have a lot of work to do and we educate our voters as to exactly what's in this bill so when november comes they vote and realize that the government now controls our health care. >> let me go to ezekiel. the heart of the fight is tomorrow, how do you think that will stand up before five of the nine justices. >> i think they will uphold the individual mandate. there's little argument that.

and let's sight two conservative experts, a professor, charles freed, who was solicitor general under president reagan, and judge silverman, both said there's no constitutional basis for the claim that it is unconstitutional and they make the very clear argument. under the commerce clause, congress can regulate interstate commerce. article one section eight says congress can do whatever is necessary and proper to implement it's regulatory powers, and part of that is the mandate. and the idea that the mandate violates an inherent freedom brushes off the fact that the congress can do a lot of things that is good for the individuals. george washington required people to have a gun at home to defend the countrcountry.

another case, they said you can be a racist and hope a hotel, but you still have to let a black person stay there. it's still constitutional to do that, and it's part of that same pattern. >> let me go back to jenny beth martin, do you think it was constitutional for romney to pass it in massachusetts. >> if that's what people in his state wanted it, they have the right to do that. the reason we're seeing that he is not the clear nominee at this point is because he passed that law in massachusetts. >> what about the united states congress wants something done, what about the people of massachusetts, what about the people of the united states. you say no matter how they vote

we can't have a health insurance policy, it's not a democratic issue? >> i say that we need to limit the powers invested in congress are limited -- >> i'm asking -- i'm asking you a principaled question. if 90% of both houses of congress and the president approve something like this, if a republican president approved something like this, you say it's unconstitutional? >> i have been on msnbc and complained about what republicans do. the majority of americans don't want this law. the majority of americans don't want it, and 70% of americans think that the individual mandate is unconstitutional. the congress passed it against the will of the american people, we do not want the government controlling our health care. >> let me go back to something here. you think congress in 1964 was within it's rights to require people who open up a business, hotel or restaurant, that they must sell to blacks and whites,

is that a stretch? >> no, that's in the bounds. >> but they're forcing to sell to somebody that they don't want to sell. you said they don't want the government telling you what to do. >> i don't want the government to force me to make a purchase simply because i'm alive and breathing. it's different when you choose to own something. if you choose to own a car, the government says you have to have insurance. >> you don't have to own a hamburger because you're alive and breathing. this is saying just because we're alive and breathing, we must purchase health insurance. >> let me get tough with you, zeek, is there anything in the interstate kmerns clause, is it as flexible as a rubber band, what do you think the government couldn't make you do? >> if the oorgt can make you buy

health insurance, and you think they can make you buy broccoli, that's -- >> they can make you sell broccoli -- >> but it can't make you eat the broccoli, and that's an important distinction. let's get to that distinction. the reason the government can make you buy health insurance is because we cannot have a health insurance market that works without everyone being part of it. we have tried in this country to have a number of insurance exchanges where everyone could buy insurance, and the problem is if they're voluntary, they always collapse and fail, they go into a downward spiral with prices going up and people existing. the only stable market we have is the one in massachusetts, and that has a mandate. bro broccoli is not the same thing. we have a market. >> don't bring up broccoli again. >> i can bring up gyms.

>> let me go back to mary beth, one last shot at you. if you were in a motorcycle accident, and i argue this with my kids, if you're in an accident, you expect from somewhere an ambulance will come with emergency people on board that will take care of you, first responders, they will get you into a hospital room, there will be first class doctors and nurses to attend to you, who is supposed to pay for that if you don't? that's interstate commerce. >> look, if you want to force this to happen, take it back to the state level. right now the majority of americans don't want it, chris? >> i know, you're driving through oklahoma and you get in an accident, who will take care of you if you have a heart attack, accident. you're expecting the hospital to do it for free. >> i'm not expecting the hospital to do it for free. i'm not expecting that and even

if you don't have insurance, you still have access to health care. t the argument that if you don't have health insurance you don't get health care. will take care of patients. they take care of patients. i was uninsured for awhile and i was still able to get care. doctor wills work with you because they care about the patients. >> so let's make two points, doctors and hospitals will take care of patients, but then you're just shifting the cost to them and they have to pay for it, and they pay for it by charging other people more. the second point i would make -- >> that's interstate commerce. >> exactly. the second point is that we all expect the health care system to be there for us, and when people don't have insurance, and then go in and use the health system, they're getting bad care, we can't give them integrated care, it costs more, and costing the rest of us more.

so if we give them insurance, we can give them better care, more organized care, prevention they typically don't do. so we can save them money. and it's the worst of both words under her scheme. someone else is paying and getting bad health care. >> please come back, after of the country may agree with you. jenny beth martin, and ezekiel. coming up, let's get into the politics of this case politically. is it better politically to lose this fight and then you get your side riled up to change things in the election. is it worse to win and play defense? this is interesting and it's firing up the supporters out there in november. you're watching "hardball" only for msnbc. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.

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despite santorum's big win, people are coalescing around romney. this poll says romney has a 15 point lead over santorum. it's romney 41, santorum at 26. those numbers look like the newest polling out of california. a new poll has romney at 42 and romney 17. fast forward to november, obama is 10 points above romney nationwide. that's a good lead for obama, we'll be right back. i came to yountville really because of the french laundry. this is the place i had been looking for all my career. so i decided to plant a bay laurel seedling to commemorate that.

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signature legislative accomplishment. what would it mean for the president and his opponents if it is decided that obama care is simply unconstitutional. could mitt romney take advantage of the legal defeat for him in the courts. they would open up a new line of attack this weekend calling him the god father of the plan. we have mark halperin, and chris cillizza. gentleman, let me try what i think is the worst case scenario. mark, i think the worst of the four sets of consequences that can come out of this is for the president to have this declared unconstitutional. there has been an undercurrent that he is not quite legitimate. would they be able to take this

hammer and say now the supreme court says he violated our constitution. >> translator: county is closely enough divided that the answer to this politically is who is best adapted to put ag spin on it and driving a message off of this. if it is struck down it helps the republicans in a number of ways. one is the way you said, he is not up to the job, doesn't know what he is doing, and it over his head. that is a argument that romney has made. he spent a year plus of his presidency working on this and it's unconstitutional. another argument is this thing has been struck down, it needs to be replaced. most of the country, a majority of the country wanted this replaced, who do you want to be in charge of replacing it. a guy that spent a year wasting

his time, or a guy that was opposed. >> so in both instances you think it is a good help to romney? >> i do, right now the basics of it, the basics of it is in the republican's favor. >> chris cillizza, is there any way obama wins if it is struck down? >> i think it's as simple as it seems. i have and will continue to take criticism for treating politics like sports. if you say we'll be more motivated to come out and win after losing, you would still rather win. i heard the argument that a loss really focuses -- and i mean the court -- wouldn't a win that's constitutional, everything mark touched about with the president dedicating 18 months of his

first term to was justified. wouldn't that excite the base too? whoever comes up on the losend end is going to make a case for why it's a good thing. >> i think -- david is still getting good pr for beating golieth, obama's senior advisor argued that in just a few years, the public will be more supporter of it. >> at the end of the decade, we're going to be glad that the republicans call it balm care. what people like you and i say wouldn't matter, it will be people's experiences. it will be very positive. >> that's not really at stake in this election. time will show that we're on the right side. he doesn't have to deliver

before november does he, in terms of public attitudes? >> he doesn't, and he was putting a horse head in mitt romney's bed and making it clear to him that if he is the nominee, that they're going to hang health care around his neck regardless of what supreme court decides. they're going to agree and a lot of people will agree that romney's passage in massachusetts paved the way for obama care whether it's instruct down or the law of the land come election day. >> in fact, chris, he -- >> go ahead. >> the fact that -- >> you said go ahead. you said go ahead. >> you're the host, you talk. >> they called romney the god father of the president's plan, let's watch and respond. >> mitt romney is the god father of our health care plan, okay? if he is president, remarkably, he's running away from that past, and he says he will try to

throw all of this away. we'll have a big fight about health care again. >> there you go, that's a big name to throw around, the god father of health care. >> that's going to stick. what i don't know the answer to, the white house seems to believe and has for some time, that they can convince people who are currently -- do not look favorably upon the bill, they can be made to like it by november. they can embrace it. they can win on the issue. i look at polling that basically shows, you look at the broad polling, somewhere in the low 40s% of people like the bill. those number vs. not changed much in the past two years.

it wasn't like david in the administration saying just want until people hear about the bill they're going to like it. we're two years alon and the numbers haven't really moved. can they win by starting a fight with mitt romney? >> the supreme court is going to hear about the case. and the website thinkprogress put together examples of mitt romney defending the principal that you have to buy insurance, let's watch. >> now in this country, people who don't have health insurance go to the hospital if they get a serious illness, and they get treated for free. >> you get picked up, you have a heart attack, go to the hospital, they're not paying for it because they don't have insurance. the people paying for it are you, those with insurance. your premiums go up because of the cost of people that don't have insurance.

>> we're giving to people based on the premise that government owes them health care for free. responsibility makes more sense. so i said if you can afford insurance, you can have it, but then you have to pay your own way. >> i have an idea, how about obama wins the election, and appoints him to the secretary of hhs, and you go out and sell it. >> mitt romney was for the individual mandate before he was against it, but barack obama was against it before he was for it. the individual mandate is a complicated thing. romney's argument is in massachusetts on the state level should not be improsed from washington. that is a legitimate argument to make, but it is a difficult one to make. he suggested it be a national or federal model.

and rick santorum is right, even though he doesn't say it well, mitt romney is less equipped than anyone else the rps could have nominated. >> we're going to talk about that in a minute when we come back, we're going to talk about the problem that rick santorum is having because of this, and the prop because santorum makes the point he is the worst possible candidate to run against obama care. thank you. up next, what "mad men" might like if it was were about president obama. look at the ad executive. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. if there was a pill

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back to "hardball," now for a great side show, first up, back in business, last night kicked off a new season of amc's "mad men," and there was an early start on chris matthew's show. we showed don draper, meet president obama, chief exec. ♪

so much in that little cartoon. back to reality, cold reality, president obama was in south korea this weekend and he spoke to university students and answered questioned submitted through a social media sight. one person wanted to know if the president had gone to extremed to beef up his own favorability. the question was, have you posted about yourself under a disguised name, pretending to be a supporter of president obama. i hadn't thought of this. the truth is, i have not done this. maybe my daughters have. but i haven't done that myself. >> that's something you would not want to be caught doing, and

that's what campaign guys do for presidents. and finally, keeping score, rick santorum may not fair well on head to head polls with president obama, but he has a leg up on bowling. the president, famously, ended up with a whole round of gutter balls when he tried back in 2008 when apparently santorum brought an a game to a campaign stop at a bowling alley this weekend. what does his high score have to do with election prospects, this is what he had to say on "face the nation. >> i was bowling in sheboygan with folks at a tournament, and through three strikes in a row, that tells you you have someone that can relate to those in wisconsin. >> three in a row is good, three strikes is good for him.

despite a loss in louisiana, he may be unraveling. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc [ artis brown ] america is facing some tough challenges right now. two of the most important are energy security and economic growth. north america actually has one of the largest oil reserves in the world. a large part of that is oil sands. this resource has the ability to create hundreds of thousands of jobs. at our kearl project in canada, we'll be able to produce these oil sands with the same emissions as many other oils and that's a huge breakthrough. that's good for our country's energy security and our economy.

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i'm milissa rehberger. the wife of the sergeant accused of killing 16 afgs said he showed no post-traumatic stress disorder before leaving. and one child is dead as many as 14 are injuries when a school buss and tractor trailer collided near ft.pierce,

florida. now back to "hardball." welcome back, rick santorum scored a big win in louisiana, but you wouldn't know it from his attitude. he lashed out at a "new york times" reporter when asked about a line from his speech and called it bs, but he used the full term. we have eugene robinson, and david corn, author of a smashing new book, "show down." last night, santorum called mitt romney the worst republican to run against obama, let's take a look. >> mitt romney agreed with barack obama on every single thing he did. it's the blueprint for obama

care. pick any other republican in the country. he is the worst republican in the country to put up against barack obama. >> when asked about that comment on the rope line, santorum went off. >> you said that mitt romney is the worst republican in the country, is is that true? >> what speech did you listen to? >> right here. . >> stop lying. i said he is the worst republican to run on the issue of balm care. would now stop distorting what i'm saying? he is the worst to run against barack obama because he fashioned the blueprint. i have said it at every speech. quit distorting my words. if i see it, it's [ bleep ]. come on, man. what are you doing? >> santorum was championing his tactics yelling at a member of the media, especially the "new

york times," listen. >> if you have not cursed out a "new york times" reporter, you're not a real republican. i said i have had enough of this you know what. and that's what i did. look, you're out there slugging away, we're the candidates out there that mix it up, and we're mixing it up. >> i think he had a pretty good argument, there, until he started dancing in the end zone. that's what they always do. he did that whb because he wasn't exactly asked the right way, and he jumped on him, and then he danced about how good he was. >> rick goes rogue, right? i'm a long time "washington post" guy, so who has not cursed out a "new york times" guy. so i have no problem with being real on the campaign trail. >> and cursing out was his phrase, and i miss used it.

it has a certain thee logical aspect to it, but was he right or wrong? >> i think maybe in the santorum household that's cursing out, but i think it was clear that rick santorum was talking about in the context of health care. but was excessive language. the romney campaign has pounced on this. i was on a campaign call this morning, who said ominously, there is now an issue involving rick santorum's temperament. >> yes, chris, you understand the context, yes. >> i get the irony. here is santorum talking about how carry it's going to be -- speaking of going over the top,

gene, you respond to this. it reminds me of the johnson add on goldwater. it's called obamaville, and they're painting a bleak picture of the next two years under obama if he should get reel elected, let's watch. >> madge a small american town two years from now if obama is reelected. small businesses are struggling, and families are worried about their jobs and their future. the wait to see a doctor s is er increasing. freedom of religion under attack. and every day, the residents of this town must come to grips with a harsh reality that a

rogue nation is a nuclear threat. welcome to obamaville. more than a town, a cautionary tale. coming soon to ricksantorum.com. >> is that strong enough, gene? >> it's like a trailer for a slasher movie, you expect freddy krueger to come into the frame and take everybody out. it's hard to take that as seriously as we should take it because the imagery is pretty outrageous. the morphing of president obama, and ahmadinejad in the flickering tv image. >> what is this about? what does it mean though, david, when they paint this bleak

scene. what do they think he is going to do for someone they say is so weak. >> it's everything but "the hunger games." it's all going to happen in the next two years. obama is going to be very, very, very busy. it's a right-wing paranoid view of the world that they have been pressing since obama got the election. they have the ability to make it more graphic as if it's an hbo film coming out. but the important thing to republican is this is done by the campaign, not the super pac, and they have no money to air this ad, which is why you see it on shows like "hardball," but you had not see it where you usually see political ads. >> we're showing it so people can have a laugh. the name of your book, "showdown" up next, details

about the shooting death of trayvon martin. we're hearing details about the other side. we'll talk to a friend of zimmerman that backs up the police report. this is "hardball" only on msnbc. [ laughs ] dad! [ laughs ] whoo! oh! you're up! oh! oh! so close! now where were we? ok, this one's good for two. score! [ male announcer ] share what you love with who you love. kellogg's frosted flakes. they're gr-r-eat! multi-policy discount. paperless discount.

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visit powerincooperation.com. >> we're back, what really happened one month ago when 17-year-old trayvon martin was shot and killed in sanford, florida. for the first time we're hearing details from george zimmerman's side of the story. thank you, joe, for joining us. this is such a tricky question. what can you tell us that most people listening right know don't know about at least zimmerman told you happened that

night. >> i can't tell you much more than what's been published. this is information we have had all along and have not been able to bring forth because george has been told not to say anything about it. and because this is george's life, we have honored that as well. the latest information released today shows that trayvon martin was the aggressor in this. >> let me ask you about that. we know from listening to the 911 call, that he was pursuing him at some point that evening. we know that he was told not to. we know he was armed and many many calls of this nature. obviously he is very devoted to this past time of looking out for possible burglars or whatever, robbers. do you know, did he have it in his permanent to say something to this young man who would have caused him to personality to say something to this young man?

>> not at all. >> why would the guy attack him? >> that's more of the information yet to come out. one of the things that came out in the release of some of the details in the police report today was george was not acting as a watch captain at that time. he was on his way home from the grocery store. he saw a suspicious individual in his neighborhood that had been victimized by numerous burglaries recently. >> he was in hot pursuit of him. he went racing after him. >> hot pursuit is relative and racing is relative. >> you can hear him huffing and puffing on the tape. >> no question about that. what we don't hear is after that tape stops what happened and how did he conveniently meet up with trayvon. the report that was released today indicates that trayvon came up to george and was the

aggressor. there are witness accounts to verify that. >> did you see george in the aftermath to see his injuries. did he have a broken nose and bleeding on the back of his head that was in the report? >> i've not seen george since the week before this happened. i've spoken to him just for the first time this past saturday, and spoke to him earlier today. i've not seen any of the pictures which raises another question about this case, chris. historically in florida, law enforcement has been very forthcoming with the evidence they have. casey anthony being the perfect example. one of the reasons we have gotten to this point is the misinformation that was put out that george is white and is hispanic and multiculture background and this information that george was not the

aggressor as far as the actual contact between trayvon and george. >> were you surprised when you heard he used the racial slur? the f'ing word. were you surprised he used a term like that? >> that's a term that i listen to over and over on there. to me it's a matter of interpretation of whether he's saying coon or goon. there's a lot of people in this country where people call themselves coon [ expletive ] . i know too many people that use that term as a racial slur. goon, i've been informed by my 17-year-old daughter that's a

term. >> let's go on. here is reverend al sharpton with his parents this afternoon. they responded to george zimmerman's claim and trayvon was the aggressor. >> he would have defended himself. if he felt afraid i believe he would have defended himself. >> i think he was con fronted and he was doing his best to try to get home. if that meant defending himself, then he had to defend himself. as far as being the aggressor, no. >> this is not getting to be a dispute over facts at some point. it sounds like a dispute over the way you look at this thing. it's so much different perspectives. race is the dividing line. who threw the first punch is what i'd like to know. do you know? >> from the accounts that i've heard, it was trayvon that threw

the first punch that knocked george down and broke his nose. there's details that's not been released of what happened after that. >> i got to push. was he aphrafraid for his life,r friend? >> yes. there's no turning back on this. >> thank you for coming on. when we return, we're going to first namish with the high takes s stakes action ocht supreme court this week. just because we're in that over 50... what does that mean? are we done? activia helps regulate your digestive system when eaten daily. these could be our best years yet. then don't get nickle and dimed by high cost investments and annoying account fees. at e-trade, our free easy-to-use online tools and experienced retirement specialists

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let me finish tonight with this. i can't think of a more important supreme court verdict since an act of congress since the civil rights act of 1964 than this one. the issue, the power of the united states government to regulate commerce. it seems harder to argue that the federal government can make you buy something you don't want to buy than to argue once you open a business, you can't discriminate against a customer based on race. does the federal government have the right under the justice's reading of the constitution to make you buy something you would not otherwise buy? this is high stakes.

high stakes with a variety of consequences. the court strikes down the president's health care bill as unconstitutional. think how the republicans will run with that one. the president acts unconstitutionally. the promise to protect it for the country. this will play without saying so into the hands of the far right who deny the legitimate si to begin with. shouldn't have been allowed to take the office and now stands exposed as a breaker of the constitution. i believe there's a good chance the court will rule in the other direction. will give the president the victory, the hard work that was done by him and that congress deserves. he will be granted the elevated stature in history as american delivered on a promise throughout the 20th century was delivered because of him in the 21st. heavy stakes. very heavy. "the ed show"