today rallies for trayvon martin are scheduled to take place in miami, chicago, minneapolis, and new york. yesterday, thousands of people showed up in sanford, florida, for a rally and march hosted by the naacp for trayvon martin. last week when we talked about the killing of trayvon martin, it seemed like everyone agreed. i even mentioned specifically how this story wasn't polarizing. >> aside from gingrich's id ol'ic comment and geraldo's idiotic comment, it doesn't seem like it's playing out in a po r polarized way. >> well, i was wrong.

it's led to the character assassination of a dead 178-year-old boy. a lot of it was helped along by the sanford police department itself which lead to an article in the sentinel. then came the article that the media only used pictures of him when he was younger to paint him as a child. images like this one began popping up on line. here's the thing about this picture. that's not trayvon martin. the photo was first posted where it was picked up by credible media outlets before realizing their mistake. not, i should note, that an empty bag of marijuana or an impudent photo has any weight or bearing on whether he deserved to get shot. the white supremie prepremacisp. this was the cover of the "new york post" this past tuesday.

"trayvon hoodwink: tragedy hijacked by race husband lers." they're telling why this kid was asking for it accusing others of playing the race card. >> you have to recognize that this whole stylizing yourself as a gagster, you're going to be a gangster wannabe, people are going to perceive you as a menace. it is an instant reflective action? >> i think the blacks are making this more of a racial issue than it has to be. >> the trump-up to create a false reality, to make it look like the country is as agitated as the left is. >> the radical left has already acted as judge, jury, and executioner in this. this is another moment we're looking at folks. >> msnbc and cnn to some extent have a vested interest in seeing

zimmerman punished because they've already found him guilty on the air. so they're not going to respect any verdict but guilty. therefore, those entities will tell the american public that racial injustice has been done if there's not a conviction, and that could very well lead to violence as we saw in the rodney king case. >> pardon me. longer monologue from bill about how our network has blood on its hands. >> carolyn and also kie wright. rich benjamin and john mcporter. a contributing editor at the republic and a columnist for the daily news and i'm leaving off a whole bunch of other things. a fellow new father and a regular. the first thing i want to say is i found the last week really

depressing. we have some buzzing going on. does anybody have a cell phone on? just want to make sure. i found the last week really, really depressing because it seemed to me like it was the great american polarization machine in action, right? we had this tragedy that looks like a strategy. i think we had a set of facts such that we knew them that said, okay, this is a pretty awful injustice, there's a dead 17-year-old kid, and a week later, you saw the montage, all of a sudden we have now a great polarized racial debate and this contestation over the legacy of whether this was a innocent kid. and you wrote about the way in which trayvon martin has become the target of this character assassination. >> i think it was sadly familiar for a lot of folks. one of the things that stands

out in the character assassination too. a well meaning piece of it where it's the victim's responsibility to unarm other people's race. right that it's your job to make sure that people don't reresponsibility to you in a fearful way. and i thank was certainly r resonant to me. >> we're going to take a break and get this audio thing figured out. create jobs in america. oil sands projects, like kearl, and the keystone pipeline will provide secure and reliable energy to the united states. over the coming years, projects like these could create more than half a million jobs in the us alone. from the canadian border, through the mid west, to the gulf coast. benefiting hundreds of thousands of families throughout the country. this is just what our economy needs right now.

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got to keep moving, keep spreading the savings. hey, how's it going? don't feed that meter. with all the hundreds i've saved on car insurance this year, this meter's on me. five random acts of savings. six random acts of savings. there's a catch? there's no catch. nothing but savings. thank you very much. absolutely. you have a great day. you, too. you're sexy. [ laughs ] we're talking about trayvon martin and the way the case has unfolded. we've seen this kind of polarization happening, and, kai, you've wrote about this way of assassination and presumption

of guilt that has entered the picture and it think it's interesting the fight that's happening over the folders. what's the real side of trayvon martin. like i said, completely immaterial as to what happened that night and whether he deserved to be get shot i am surprised too. i have written a couple of pieces and have taken the side that most people have, george zimmerman has blood on his hands. very normal columns. usually a person who's known as controversial on race, what i'm used to is getting mean mail and i don't know what color i am. over the past couple of weeks i have been getting a lot of hate mail from white people says i'm convicting zimmerman and i'm an anti-race it person and i should

be -- there's something going on that's regrettable. >> it also bridges out this point like the way in which in the current environment, it can just be a sewer, right? i mean there are certain things will strike a chord. even when i saw on the news about someone in the clan hacked his e-mail? i'm like what universe do we live in. the clan hacked the e-mail. and the fact -- and there's a great point being made about the way it's being struck turn to eat away at the empathy that people normally feel. the first impulse is people have empathy for a dead 17-year-old boy. and then show the media account, fooling around with 17-year-old friends to make hing him into something else. right, rich? >> very much so.

they're dehumanizing him, making him look like a criminal. however, we should point out, think, that i'm reminds of joe wilson and valerie plame the same way that when they challenged it. there was character assassination against both of them. so i think there are two things going on here. one is a polarization, you're talking about, chris, but the second thing is the best tactic is to dehumanize him and make him look like a criminal. >> please, kai. >> part of it is the case opened up a bunch of structural questions about gun laws and about the way the criminal justice system works. >> stand your ground sniet opened up a bunch of questions. one of the things i've seen is if you can keep it about

individuals, you don't get to the structural thing. so making it a fight about whether or not george zimmerman is a bad person or trayvon is or is not a bad person presends a conversation about it. >> clearly we need to have a conversation. we don't live in a post-racial dream world. this shows deep scars in our country and a need for national debate and national action in this area. my good friend in congress and housemate fredricka wilson said he was the sweetest kindest young machblt she has a huge family. he baby sat for all the children in the family. he called them his little bunnies. he has two outstanding brothers. his mother works for hud. the father is outstanding. it show as young man or woman should be able to walk the streets or see a friend or buy something at the store without being assaulted. i was part of a neighborhood

patrol in my block association for young people walking home after school. we weren't carrying guns. we were out on the street to make sure people got home correctly. and i would say if you think something is wrong, call the police. and the police were telling him not to do anything. she is distressed beyond words and we have to take action. >> i think the law we've -- first of all i want to get back to what you said quickly, kai. i think one of the things happened last week is we've all been baited into essentially litigating -- trying the case on the facts and we don't have the fact, right. >> so now here's the individual yoechlt it contests -- it contests the family members of zimmerman's account. the family members of zimmerman are going all over cable news to say their side of the story, although there's no way to confirm or deny it. all of this volume is created by the fact that the way we establish facts in this country is we have an arrest and a

trial, right? so all of this is flowing into the volume that's been created by the absence of the legal process, which is the way we deal with this, right? he can zbo before a jury and say all of these things, right? but instead it's being tried in the media. the other point about not having a gun is such an important one. we had know wassed on the stand your ground laws. but even broader are the carry laws. you can walk around with a gun and in the era of post hell or jury is prudence on the court, that's essentially a constitutional right to go anywhere with a gun. >> that's outrageous. that passed the house in november and we have good gun control laws in new york and other states like arizona where we have lax laws. the amount of gun violence is higher. in fact, since they did this stand your gun law violence, it's gone up 300%.

it's outrageous. to think that arizona can come in to new york with their guns is just outrageous. >> describe that for a second. there's federal legislation pending, right, which is about the reciprocity issue that would allow people to essentially conceal/carry in one state and essentially conceal/carry in another state. >> right. it's passed the house senate. it's outrageous. >> there's one or thing two things about the case that transends. we don't need to argue about, even if we don't need to know the details, which is, one, trayvon would still be alive if a gun hadn't been involved. suppose we had fisticuffs, but we don't. what george zimmerman was like or wasn't, the fact is he shouldn't have stopped that boy at all. and the reason the boy was stopped was because of the color of his skin to. the extent that anybody thinks

trayvon's treats or george zimmerman is a racist means we've got a crazy media. >> i take offense. how dare you. >> except you, chris. >> all present company included. >> people are thinking we're post racial or it would be nice if we were, so why can't we look at them as individuals when the fact is we're not completely post racial. we're more so than people thing. but the fact is that kid would not be dead if he weren't black. and the extent that he isn't, there's something seriously wrong. >> something even deeper in the social psychology is why we're getting really quickly to this kind of inflamed, polarized emotional bedrock is because it has at the core of this sort of central division, the idea that you need to be armed to defend

yourself from the other, and that's something that goes all the way back in american history as a long lineage in terms of the social bondage. you wrote an interesting piece about how that manifested in "the new york times." i want to talk about that right after we take this break. [ jane ] how did i get here? with determination.

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you were making a point, rich benjamin, that should be made on air. that even if trayvon martin, even if the facts were different, even if he had arrests, he wasn't this innocent 17-year-old boy, it still doesn't matter. >> i was making that point. after i wrote that piece in the new york tiemgs that you refer to, i got a lot of angry e-mails and people said, don't you know, he wore jewelry, he wore a goatee, he wore a tattoo, he was suspended. i thought those who don't agree with you or look like you don't have right rights. i told you even if he's a

convicted felon out on the streets, he doesn't deserve that. we have to keep repeating that, a, this is a kid, as john was saying, who had many kids like other kids who remind us of our cousins and nephews and so on, but it didn't matter? i agree. everyone should be able to walk the streets without being shot peacefully. >> controversial pronouncement. >> it's a very, very big case of racial profiling and i would also like to talk a little bit about the social media impact on this case. it's really trial by tweet. you send out these twitters all over the place and they're showing up at other people's homes and terrorizing them and passing lies and miss information and it's spreading. >> that photo was a great exam pe. again, not that it matters. it would be perfectly fine for a 17-year-old boy to pose with his middle fingers up. and also the marijuana baggy to

me, it's like, how many white kids in america, how many white kids in prep schools in new york city have been found with a marijuana baggy? i know a lot of them. like that shows them to be some sort of thug. that's ridiculous. >> and george zimmerman on some level of quantum fictions could perceive that. >> that was precisely george zimmerman's stance, it sounds like. a big part of this, and it goes beyond this case, it goes beyond criminal justice. it's racial profiling but it goes beyond that, is the idea that you have to be a victim in order to receive justice and that if you're not a victim, then, well, maybe you had what was coming, what you got. it goes to poverty. it's the same thing for whether or not you deserve social services, it's the same thing in immigration wlrks or not you are -- how legal are you. >> how abject you are. >> if you can't be either a hero

or a villain, then you don't have a place in the conversation. >> let me actually flip this around in terms of the villain. i always feel like there's a level in the way in which it's going to be perceived. i don't know. i think all the facts that i know show that he acted terribly, right, and that i think he should be arrested. but i also feel like there's the other side of the polarization machine is let's all figure out the true evil that lurks in the heart of george zimmerman which to me strikes as counter productive as the sort of opposite kind of characterization on the other side. maybe i'm being a softy. >> my sense of it is that zimmerman certainly did have a certain on session with young black men. he would probably put it as of a certain profile. i would suspect -- i can only suspect, and the hate mail and tweets are going to come from this. it's quite possible that trayvon went [ bleep ] upon him and was

rather succeeding and maybe zimmerman did become afraid. but then you wonder why he had a gun. i don't think he's a horrible human being. i don't know that that would be a racial thing. why he felt the reason to stop this kid because he was black and tallish and had ahood eye on. that was the problem. >> and until we get into that, then i think we're missing what the real point of all this was. zimmerman could possibly be described as the nice guy he's being perceived with. but he had a problem as america has a problem that seeing a young black man, that he has something coming because of some sort of clothes he's wearing. if america thinks he has something wearing because they're tired of young black men, we have a problem, and i'm not sure that this national conversation or teaching moment can change it and that's what really worries me. i don't know if trayvon things won't keep happening. >> i totally agree the way you're flipping the script.

there will be and there is this inclination to demonize george zimmerman and it speaks to the uncomfortable question to what extent is america all george zimmerman. people all say we're all trayvon, we're all trayvon, his supporters at least. but the question will raise. >> what do you mean by that? that's a prerogative statement? >> it means what john stated. it speaks to the irrational fear of crime. as carolyn say, in some states crime is going down, and yet we see this proliferation of stand your ground laws, and we see these laws that address our fears but don't address crime itself, and so how are we implicated in all of that. >> and i mean, so, one, i'd restress the idea that as long as we're talking about the individuals, what was in their heart or not, we're not talking about the structures. >> that's right. >> and the structures at work

are the key thing here. you know, getting back to the point about racial profiling, one of the things i heard a lot, there's a lot of debate about zimmerman's ethnicity and whether he's latino and whether or not that mattered, when we think about racial profiling in new york city, i mean there's a -- >> really good point. >> if a black police officer stop as black youth and systematically searches for guns they don't find, if the peace officer is black, does it matter? the point is there is a system inside the new york police department who says this is how you look for guns. you profile a young black person who wears a hoodie and you stop them and search them illegally. so that tees conversation to be having around racial profiling. and around this case, i think, again, it's about why does he

have a gun. why do people exist in -- this was raised, what about these gated communities in the first instance. >> why the suspicion? you just made the point they find so sort of frustrating, and that is the most mackerel point to be made here. we talk about the sort of prison industrial complex on-on-the program a lot and the warning drug xetra. there is -- crime has been going down and it's been historically low for a long time and no amount of empirical amount of crime seems to ietd away at the paranoia and fear. in fact, the crime might be -- the city in florida, the town in if there florida, it's not like it's rampant. you hear zimmerman talk about the spectra of kriechlt the "stand your law" ground" law --

oopds. it's that paranoia that we don't seem to be able to chip away at no matter ho much the actual crime rate comes down. that's really maddening. >> the facts rarely add up. i mean these are emotional things and they are emotions deliberately being played upon to make people afraid. >> congressman, i want to hear what you have to say after we take one quick commercial break. the charcoal went out already? [ sighs ] forget it. [ male announcer ] there's more barbeque time in every bag of kingsford charcoal. kingsford. slow down and grill. and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers. this is your moment.

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they didn't take a dime. how much in fees does your bank take to watch your money ? if your bank takes more money than a stranger, you need an ally. ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense. congresswoman, i cut you off right about the time you were to give us your thoughts. i wanted to go back to you. >> fredricka, this congresswoman, said it wasn't a "stand your ground" case. it wasn't force with force. he went after him. he was walking on the street and he went after him. i think the response that's so overwhelming across the country shows a deeper concern that people are feeling across the country, as much as mathew

shepherd really was the focal point of concern over gay-bashing and terrible hate crimes that were out there, and he sort of became the organizing movement in the country, and trayvon may be doing this now with america responding so deeply to it. >> you know something? there's something i want to say about this, which is if there can be some agreement that there's a possibility that george zimmerman was not -- is not a slobbering big goot. the fact is a stereo tell against a young black man as being more likely to commit crime than say young jewish women is not absolutely insane because for reasons we can all talk about, young black men do commit crimes in this country disproportionately to their proportion of the population. we can talk about why. so the stereo type does not have no basis, in fact, that this is

the challenge. can we know that and yet understand that just because we see somebody walking down the street in brown skin and a hoodie, that we have no right to take him aside, much less kill him. and i'm not sure if everybody is capable of -- >> but i think it's also important to say that, you know, there's a finer point i'd put on that, that young black men are arrests for crimes at a higher rate. if we policed middle-class college campuses in the same way we police neighborhoods, we might see -- >> in fact, we have data on this. in terms of drug use, right? we have data that there is no difference between drug use among white people and among african-american people. there's a massive, massive difference in drug arrests. so there's a huge difference in the application of law and the actual -- >> that's what i think we're getting back to. that's part of it is that there's -- because there's a --

there's so much policing of black neighborhoods and so many arrests of young black men, often for really -- for crimes that are miss demeanors, in the culture we have this idea they're dangerous. >> and the idea you're supposed to go against drug sales in the open air as opposed to the skarls dale basement so black people end up suffering more. which means trayvon martin, it seems like everything comes back to the war on drugs. it's driven by there being these laws but that's probably another show. >> i would call these laws "kill it well." i thank should be furled back across the country. i think the basic question is what do we do about it to prevent it in the future? what do we as policy makers and writers and concerned citizens do to make sure this doesn't happen to other young men and women.

>> that's a great question. >> it's not that they're just armed and carrying concealed weapons. it's that they even been charged with enforcing the law and they see it as their right and their duty to enforce the law. that's what bothers me. >> the concealed carry hoodie from the nra -- >> i wear hoodies. what's wrong with a hoodie? >> this is a conceal/carry hoodie from the nra. we developed the exclusive hooded sweatshirt, double backed holster and pouch that can be repositioned inside the pockets for u

for ult mum draw. >> when you talk about -- how do we make sure this doesn't happen. we dig dloundown through the layers that got stacked atop each other to create this situation. the easiest thing is for people to not be walking around with guns, frankly. one policy thing, wave a magic wand, it would be to walk around without guns and yet it has essentially become impossible because of the supreme court to legislate that. it is unclear how exactly a state can regulation guns in their state if they can tell people not to be walking around with guns and i think we're going see a proliferation here. what we've seen in sort of trends, huge spiking gun sales, and obviously there's a correlation between gun culture and suspicion and the country's twisted racial history. so that to me is -- at the policy level is something. and let's all remember, "stand your ground" laws in florida passed by a by part saab vote.

democrats have largely given up on gun control as an issue. it's been taken off the table. with don't talk about it. don't you feel like that's the case, congresswoman? it's not something that's really on the table very much in congress. >> it's very polarize, and when the republicans want to kill a bill, they attach a gun because they know there are certain people in congress who are very much for gun safety and gun control. and even my bill, the credit card holder card by bill of rights that saves consumers billions a year. they attached a gun item to it to kill the bill and it was a stupid bill that said you could carry a gun in all federal parks. >> and it got passed. >> they put it on to kill the bill. >> we have a credit card bill of rights and uzis in the grand canyon. >> i do want to say the president because you mention his name, i am deeply appreciative of his statements, he said trayvon would look like

my son, pointing out how outrageous and sad this is and how it affects all of our lives and we have to do something about it. chris, what do we do about it? >> i wish i did. i think the president was appealing to empathy in that statement and i hope that sort of guides our reaction. thanks so much for joining us. i really appreciate it. up next, more bipartisan legislation. "stand your ground" laws were hailed. now republicans and democrats are high-fiving each other for passing the jobs act. why we should all worry when washington gets along. up next. [ female announcer ] think it's impossible to reduce the look of wrinkles

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overwell. ing majority. jobs act eases regulation on small businesses and entrepreneur by roll back some of the investor protects in the sarbanes-oxley act of 2002 as a result of the enron and world scandals. it will make it easier for small firms to raise capital. the white house which is expected to sign the bill, enthusiastically applauded democrats and republicans working together saying it was, pleased congress took bipartisan action to pass key initiatives the president proposed last fall to help small businesses and start-ups grow and create jobs. it was also written -- experts in fehr itting out sophisticated financial frauds, we right to thank congress and the president for preparing to adopt a jobs act that will provide us with job security for life. this bill is an atrocity.

you're smiling. what's your feeling about this piece of legislation? >> this legislation came out of the prnt jobs council. i don't see it as a great jobs bill. i don't see it passing a lot of jobs. that could create infratuck aur and create a great number of jobs. it's to help start-ups and entrepreneurs and the next apple company. one of my amendments on it was that they had to register with the s.e.c. so the s.e.c. can come in and investigate, but after the enron scandal, we passed an auditor, a very tough auditor review, outside auditors. it's very costly. every small business in my district complains about the requirements. it's costly for small businesses. larger businesses can assume the cost as a way to allow these smaller companies, whether it's

krounld funding or they're allowing them to advertise. it was a way to sort of try to jump start and allow these smaller companies to gain capital liquidity, which is very difficult to do. >> also joining us at the table, attorney alexis goldstein formerly with wall street, now with the s.e.c. you tried to warn us thb bill back when it passed, and then it did pass. the congresswoman articulated what they said was its intent. >> the problem is this define as new class of company called an emerging growth company which is defined as a business. one of the things this says is there used to be this thing that's a wall between the research side and the investment banking side. if i'm an investment bank taking a bank public, i'm not allowing to send something out because that's a con fredericton of

interest. the jobs act tears that wall down. the other thing you mentioned is it tears down part of sarbanes-oxley. if a company goes public, for five years after they go public they don't have to do in accounts under sarbanes-oxley. >> it also expands the category of those that don't have to register with the s.e.c. so there's now all sorts of ways in which you can raise capital. william black joins us now, senior regulator during the savings and lone scandals, and author of the book "the best way to rob a bank is to have one." good to have you. >> thank you. it's great to be on. >> why are you so concerned about it. >> well fundamentally what this is doing is taking to the world of equities the shadowed banking system, what it did in the world of debt, and we've just seen what creating opaqueness does in the world of debt. it produces a global disaster.

>> could i -- sorry. let me just translate that. so what you're saying. what you're saying is the financial crisis was a sort of essentially jeguess stated -- a the derivatives market. >> you're saying it's going to move the same sorts of things. just so people know equities from debt. when we're talking about small companies raising capital. we're talking them selling stock to raise capital. continue, sorry. >> that's correct. and derivatives in this case were debt derivatives. these were based on people's mortgages, which, of course, have debt instrument. it's called the shadow financial system because it wasn't regulated. and we've just seen that that produces the most krimm inoh genic environmental you can imagine.

that means an environment that produces widespread fraud. take that to equities or stock. this is a dream bill for every pump and dump scam in issuing stock that you've ever heard of. and we already had endemic problems way beyond the s.e.c.'s capacity to deal with with those kind of frauds. and now we've made it open season for these frauds. it is truly an atrocity. we have truly learned flog from our crises. >> will you explain what a pump and dump scam is and why it would be easier in your mind to do that under this new legislation? >> sure. one of the things is the cloud financing stuff. one pump and dump is i tout all kinds of e-mail that says this is going to be the greatest thing, prices are going to

triple and i buy some shares to start the movement in the price and then a whole bunch of unsophisticated investors come in that races the price of the stock and then i dump my stock knowing that it's going to be a disaster while i can still profit, and everybody else is left with tremendous losses. that is a daily occurrence in terms of small stocks and microcaps and things like that. this is going to expand your world. as your guests said, this is not tiny companies. this is allowing this for really major enterprises that can cause devastating losses. >> i want to get reaction from alexis and the congresswoman right after we take a quick break. it's time to turn everyday moments into red carpet moments, to friend some new friends.

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this was something we felt we needed do. it came out of the president's office. the president supported it. and it's a feeling of how do you create new high-tech opportunities. the one thing about congress, is you can change things the next day. that's one of the things we have with dodd frank. there's a tremendous effort to push back on the fund manual disclosures and transparency and trading on open exchanges that are fundamentally huge for the country. so this was an area where the president's jobs counsel, the president's people, the administration thought we could possibly create some jobs if there is abuse. one said you have to come in and register with the s.e.c. that gives the s.e.c. to come in if they think there's a problem, but it doesn't rekwar all of the sarbanes-oxley, which was the reform bill after the enron scandal. >> it doesn't seem to me that a company of a billion dollars

should be exempt from sarbanes-oxley accounting. and these companies are exempt five years after. you mention this could help text start-ups. but text start-ups don't need help. the other thing i think people fail to glean from this bill is this isn't necessarily about start-ups. an emerging growth could could be something where a company took it private and flips and two years after that because of the jobs act they're only required to disclose two years of financial records. >> bill black, because the bill has the acronym job, i'm curious what you think about it. the problem that it was supposed to be addressing was a decline in ipos among small cap firms. this is what people have pointed out as the problem that needed solving. i'm curious what you think about

its job creating potential. >> yeah. and that doctor of inkrimm knollgy that specializes in financial crimes. and was actually a successful regulator on these things. first, this is an anti-jobs act. the congresswoman is certainly correct about the enormous loss from the great recession. what she hasn't added is the great recession was driven by massive fraud by our most elite financial institutions. and when you encourage fraud -- and that's exactly what this bill does -- you destroy jobs, you destroy millions of jobs. now, what was the logic on why we had to deregulate before. we had to sub -- supposedly win the race to the bottom. that's the problem. if we wreck late effectively,

the fraudulent start-ups will move to the city of london. i think that would be an excellent idea. >> outsource the fraud across the atlantic. i want to read this quickly. too often investors of the tar against of fraudulent schemes disguised as investment opportunities -- while i recognize that h h.r. 3606 is the product of a bipartisan affect designed to fa sill it capital formation and includes promising approach, i believe there are provisions that should be add order modified to improve investor protections. you mentioned fraud that happened in the late 1980s. i want to talk more about that right after we take a break. [ male announcer ] considering all your mouth goes through,

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hello, i'm chris hayes. associate professor of economics and law at the missouri of kansas city. congresswoman, wajts you -- i want you to say something you said to me just now about you should -- mayor shapiro should send you a let sneer she should send all members of congress a let owner everything she thinks should be added for investor protection. i will introduce the bill and i will work hard to paetz. it took me four years to pass the credit card holders bill of rates. you can work on it. when they say we need it because we need more i pi os. there were articles we were behind china. but if you look at china, their ipos is they sell it to themselves. they put up the ipo, and the government buys it. so it's not really a real ipo.

so i would say still our country is leading in many ways the ipos that are worldwide. >> i have a question because i think this is important is that, you know, the theory is there is a problem for capital formation and there's a debate about whether or not there's a small business. my question for professor black is that true, is that theory correct, and if it is, what is the solution to that? >> let's go to professor black. do you want to take a shot at that? >> sure. no, there isn't a crisis in funding. banks are incredibly liquid and incredibly recording profits. >> but they're not lending. >> right. and the problem is private sector demand. we're still in the recovery from a terrible, terrible recession, and when you don't have strong private sector demand, you're not going to have much willingness to lend because they're going to be afraid of

losing their money. the u.s. as alexis said has by par the greatest sources of lending funding in particular for high tech. so the high tech stuff is a complete made up argument in this context. china's a good place to mention because china when is s.e.c. started looking, it was a whole series of accounts fraud because they don't follow sarbanes-oxley principles, and this bill is going to make foreign efforts also easier because it's going to overwhelm the resources of the securities and exchange commission. you ask me what leads into these things. we have three major crises in cent time, starting with the saving & loan debacle starting

roughly 25 years ago, then the enron're rah, and now the current one. each of these was triggered by an epidemic of fraud at the most elite financial institution level. and each of those epidemics of fraud was produced by substantial completely bipartisan deregulation. so every time we get this kumbaya moment when the democrats and the republicans start thinking good things about each other, you should hold your wallet, because it's a disaster. >> let me read. this is phil graham. it was called the financial services moderation act. the world changes and we have to change with it. we have a new century coming and we have an opportunity to dominate that century.

glass-steagall, in the midst of the great depression came at a time when the thinking was that the government was the answer. the concerns that we will have a meltdown like 1929 are dramatically overblown. this is clinton treasury secretary larry summers, the time, 1999, to date -- about the same bill. today congress voted to update the rules that have governed financial services since the great depression and replace them with a system for the 21st century. this historic legislation will better enable american companies. one thing when i started looking at the jobs bill, it seemed appealing to me because i was clicking on kick starter project. it's a very neat website where someone has a website and people can pledge money. yeah, it's true. we're in the enter net age and kick starter is awesome and i started looking into the details of this. i guess this is a broad question for you. in terms of thinking about, yes,

there are new ways about trying to make these tractionsactions . is there another way to conceive of changing the rules that isn't deregulation? >> of course. i mean they think you could have had this jobs act with investor protections put into it and allow people to sort of raise mon money. the idea is how can i crowd fund my new business and i thank's a worthwhile endeavor but i think you would owe it to them to disclose something about your business. and part of what was so heinous about this before the senate waeged in on this and amended it is there was a discloser. you have this really important question which is dhoul you address capital formation, how do you force the banks to lend? i don't have the answer to that but deregulation isn't the answer. >> you say the bill got better in the senate?

>> yes. >> how did get better. >> one portion is about crowd funding. one example is if you were a company who hired someone to pump your stock, you did not have to disclose and the senate amended that to say, no, no, no, no you have to disclose this i'll put in every idea that you have to approve this, that balances the new technologies that are part of our world, the internet echlt i'll in trow deuce it to congress. >> alexis goldstein is twinkling. >> i like it. >> i want to tell you a personal story. when they started deregulationing very briefly. we enacted three great reforms, fdic, and glass-steigel. they gave us 50 years of prosperity. when we started reregulating, we

got in trouble. they were pushing to move off the exchange the energy derivatives which were the most powerful derivatives and she and others came to me, this is horrible, do something about it. i put in a bill that says you don't that. you keep the derivatives on the kparj at which greenspan says you don't need it. take it off. snowe, the f all come in and say, this is bad policy, don't do it. and, of course, it went to a vote and i couldn't even get the democrats to vote with me. so when they have this run toward deregulation, it's a huge chachlkt and one of the most important reforms of dog frank is glass-steigel modernized which is to say don't trade for your own account. so you're not competing with your commerce and your customers

are your top commerce. don't clean up. don't be stalking customers that they don't want. it's because of this. >> are the forces that are working against progress, are they not resistible? is there a change possible in terms of legislation, something that somebody would send you, or are we talking about needing a cultural kind of change, which is more difficult to conceive of? >> i think it's very difficult to take on financial interests. i work so hard on the credit card bill. i use that as an example because it's easier to use an example. i can't even walk down the street without hearing about credit card abuse where i'm paying on time, i've never been late and yet they raised my rate retroactively on my balance and

i can't get out of bill. that bill that cracked down on abusive practices, it took four years to pass and it was the first credit card reform in 30 years. >> and that's something extremely tangible. >> you mentioned dodd/frank and think that's really important and you mentioned brookly born was pushing derivatives on the exchange. >> they were on the exchange. >> they made the market opaque. you're actually co-sponsor of something called the swap execution facilities clarification act that rolls back part of dodd/frank that allows for more pretrade price tran parnscy on derivative. my question to you is if you disagree with brookly back then, why do you agree now? >> i'm totally for transparency. i was on the conference committee. i was with barney frank when he was in a sweat every night to see if he could get the votes to move anything forward.

it's a democracy. and the sef bill called for different exchanges. so it all has to go on an exchange. it has to be printed at the end of the process and before the process. that bin passed out of the subcommittee with a total vote and it passed out of the agriculture rat committee. my point is that any means of trade should be able to be exercised. new york is very much a voice skparj in some houses. they like to talk about it. >> that's because voice is profitable. >> then you have to print whatever it is and get it out there. >> and so -- but that's transparency. that's good that i'm for that. i'm for that. the bill as put forward -- >> the bill says you cannot -- the -- >> i need to. >> you had to have six bids. what happens if you don't get

six bids. >> five bids. >> it's my show and i'm totally confused. thal means that we have to take a break. bill black, proffers of law at the university of kansas city, thanks for joining us today. i appreciate you doing it. jobs security has been liquidated while it reshapes. ♪ [ male announcer ] from our nation's networks... ♪ ...to our city streets... ♪ ...to skies around the world... ♪ ...northrop grumman's security solutions six bids. liquidated while it reshapes. . [ soldier ] move out! [ male announcer ] ...without their even knowing it. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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as i said before, was confused, and if i'm confused, you might be confused at home. over-the-count

over-the-count over-the-counter derivatives are something to understand they're financial instruments. their value is based on some underlying asset, corn, an interest rate, or a mortgage-backed security, a bond. they can go up and down in price. are often not traded on exchanges. the way an exchange works is if alexis wants to trade stocks with the congresswoman, they trade through me, i'm the new york stock exchange, and at the end of the day, everything is netted out. i conduct all the trades. i make sure everyone has what they want at the end of the day. over-the-counter exchange somewhat is. you call. you make the transaction over the phone or e-mail and no one see as what that price is and also no one knows who owes what to who. the not knowing who knows what to whom is the source of what brought down much of the financial system. it's called party risk. you have turned out to make a trade, alexis and the congresswoman, but it turns out the congresswoman between tuesday and went has gone

bankrupt. she has your money. you go bankrupt as well. and then the dominos fall. are we good? the point here is that one of the big parts of dodd/frank is to get all of this person to person over-the-counter trading happen, the phone call between alexis and the congresswoman. >> something like an exchange. >> which is public and transparent and gives price information to everyone and gets rid of the terrifying counterparty risk between the twof of you. the question is how that is going to be done, by what implementation, and how many loopholes and there's a disagreement between the twof you on a piece of legislation the congresswoman has co-sponsored about whether it creates you think two larger loopholes rather than exchange trading. i just want to make clear what the actually debate we're having is even though i don't think we'll resolve it here. no, i'm serious. do you both agree? >> you should be aelected.

>> do you both agree that is the question, right? you want to see an exchange. you also want to see an excha e exchange. >> dodd frank requires it be on the exchange. at the end. it also requires for a research department to be created where ef single exchange on time when the exchange happens goes into a centr central detode postory. >> it's part of dodd/frank. it's not quite an exchange. it's kind of like a exchange. it basically terrace down parts of the things that the facility requires. the thing that's not great about this act in my opinion is the ftc and s.e.c. are not done with there rule-making. >> i agree with you. it's been a year and a half. why don't they come out with the

rule? i would like them to call out with the rule. i called gary gensler to come out with his rule. >> gary gentzler. they're both going through the regulatory process in which they're bringing forth rules that stem from dog frank and that's the question of how tight the rule is going to be. and that's what you're saying. all right. we're going the leave this vb on truce debate right here. this week, a house finance services committee had a meeting about mf global, a company you may or may not have heard of. you should hear a lot. where it says we are toward fixing the problems that led us to this crisis after this. the movie. or... we make it pink ! with these 4g lte tablets, you can do business at lightning-fast speeds. we'll take all the strawberries, dave. you got it, kid. we have a winner.

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it seemed to implicate the former head of mf global, jon corzine, aka the former senator. if you missed astonishing development of the downfall of another seemingly corrupt wall street investment firm, don't feel bad. mf global hasn't received as much attention as it should have, so let me catch you up. they were a brokerage firm. they invested in a lot of european debt. we all know how well things have been going over there. and to simplify, they made a very big bad debt that the outlook would improve and when they didn't improve. it appears they then resolved this problem by taking over a billion dollars, billion with

aa "b." last october they filed for bankruptcy protection and a federal investigation into the firm began shortly thereafter. mr. core sign resigned from the firm in november, the very next month. he testified about the missing client funds in december. >> i simply do not know where the money is or why the accounts have not been reconciled today. >> he has not been accused. he never meant to approve the transfer of funds and if he did, it was a misunderstanding. joining us at the table is karen ho. she's an author of "liquidated: an ethnotography." you actually worked at a wall street firm, right? >> i did.

i took a leave of absence to take a job at what's now deutsche bank. i later went on to conduct the fieldworks study. >> if you look at the contours of mf global, it seems we're lucky that this happened at a place that wasn't too big to fail. that's progress. >> it didn't did corrupt the financials, so that's some sort progress. but when you look at internally the plot sequence of what happened at mf global, it looked startlingly familiar with what happened at lehman. taking on too much leverage. taking on a set of risky transactions and desperately trying to konk your trails. what is it about the cultural wall street that produce this kind of behavior? >> absolutely. i think culture of smartness, the idea that the folks are the smartest in the world, right?

it really allows them to do multiple kinds of things. one, it gives them market legitimacy. of course they can be trusted with risk and to self-regulate. of course, the smartest in the world can be trusted to fix the economy despite the fact they drove it off a cliff. so thus our surprise. well, you helped to engender massive equality recession, et cetera. why are you going to be the sight there which you going to fix things. part of it again is this understanding that they have an unassailable mary tock rahcy. they have an innate kind of smartness. what it also does is says we don't need to wreck late you because you're smarter than the regulators. there's a discourse that abounds that says we're smarter than the regulators. >> if you were so smart, you'd be working on wall street. >> exactly. >> you're not saying that as a statement. you're saying that's what people

say. >> exactly. >> i was going to say, you're insulting regulators. >> i fully respect their work and think they are much more skilled, right? but this is the discourse. >> "the new york times" wrote about lobbying regulators that considered a rule, although it wasn't the exact thing that brought down mf global but it was a rule about essentially how much of their company's money they could use to make bets. again, i'm oversimplifying because it's difficult. i talked with some folks. you know, corzine has this kind of aura, right? he was a goldman guy for years. he was at treasury at some point. he's got this i know what's up and when he has those conversations with the regulator, there is this kind asymmetry, right? sort of power and status. and even that's an interpersonal

thing rather than structural thing. you say it has real effects. >> absolutely. it's not just a description about claims wu it actually -- it scaffolds, right, their market making. >> what does that mean? explain that. >> >> it helps to make their markets in the sense that it helps them attract clients. it helps corporate america believe that their model and vision of the world for how business practices should be run, for how corporations should be governed is based on a particular kind of financial situation. i thinking about corporations as long-term institutions and many of their corporate clients, well, since you're the smartest in the world, let me follow these kinds of prescriptions and the overall landscape of deregulation or what i call deregular lakers it's regulation for wall street, not simply deregulation, and i think that's a miss gnomer to presume there's a dichotomy between state and

finance. >> congresswoman, can i ask you this question because i feel this problem as a journalist. i go into this topic. you go on this topic and you -- obviously you have a tremendous amount in this area. you legislated on this. you're going to have one or two consumer people come in and say, no, this is a good idea how do you essentially adjudicate those disputes? particularly when you're dealing with an area of expertise in which there's a small amount of people who understand it and i as a journalist and i report on it in which, you know, i call up some people and they say x and some say not x. someone is not rate but i genuinely feel i don't have the technical expertise to adjudicate it. how do you go about this process? >> it's like taking an exam every day. you have to study it and you

have to balance it. you wanted the strongest economy to be strong. you don't want to muscle it and put it down but you also want the proper regulations and safeguards for consumers, for investors, and i argue always that if the safeguards are there, it's good for the company, too, because then we have a growing kpli that is serving everyone and if you don't have a middle class there to buy the products, then there's no profit. >> that point about good for the economy, good for the companies, too, i think is an important one because what we've seen is part of what the cult rift market does is it sinks the same firms. lehman -- it would have been better for lehman had they been better regulated. they would still exist on a certain level. >> exactly. >> i think many of the culture smartness financial inindianapolis substitutions that believe in that also believe that they would be bailed out. i think the idea --

>> do you think so? >> oh, absolutely, absolutely. >> yes. >> i have many folks i would take to who say we have a lot of the upside risk and less of the downside risk because we're too big to fail. >> look at the bank of america? the stock is nowhere near that. so what does that represent? it represents how much the market thinks the implicit government bailout of bank of america is worth. >> more about too big to fail and the culture of wall street right after we take a break. [ male announcer ] this one goes out to all the allergy muddlers. you know who you are. you can part a crowd, without saying a word. you have yet to master the quiet sneeze. you stash tissues like a squirrel stashes nuts. well, muddlers, muddle no more. try zyrtec®. it gives you powerful allergy relief.

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here's a chance to create jobs in america.

oil sands projects, like kearl, and the keystone pipeline will provide secure and reliable energy to the united states. over the coming years, projects like these could create more than half a million jobs in the us alone. from the canadian border, through the mid west, to the gulf coast. benefiting hundreds of thousands of families throughout the country. this is just what our economy needs right now. did you ever hear the frizz ibgybg? >> not up till today. >> what does it mean? >> ibgybg was explained to me to mean i'll be gone, you'll be gone. so why are you making life difficult right now over this particular comment effectively -- he said it laughingly as if

you're losing perspective here. that that's someone from moody's who's testifying before carl levin. it was about what happened that brought on the crash. ibgybg was an exchange in which an investment banker wanted him to rate him at a certain level, aaa. he said, i don't know. he said, why are you wasting our time. ibgybg. i'll be gone, you'll be gone. >> i haven't had a chance to read your book, carolyn. and i hasn't even had a chance to do a quick skim and call it reading. >> welcome to my life. >> one part that did interest me was this "i'll be gone, you'll be gone" because it's my impression that it discusses that part of wall street is one of the reasons that it happened is because nobody has any

long-term commit nnlt to the firms much less america. are we just stuck with that? >> great question. i want to step back and talk about this dangerous combination of privilege and insecurity. on this one hand you have the smartest in the world, best and brightest, self-anointed. but also because they recruit from the most elite universities they're branded by the largest society is also the best and the brightest because that's where they derive most of their workers, wall street workers. there also are then once they come into these institutions are faced with an intense social lags, both of overwork and work gets red back to them as oefd f their work superior fitness and job capabilities. not only overworked but rampant

job insecurities. desks are being eliminated. banks are restructured, merging, eliminating on the phase of demise, right. so you have these really privileged workers that are highly resourced that think that their job is going to be gone any day now. and they're also highly come pen seattled. but bonuses are not based on the long term deal or the financial advice but rather the quantity. how many financial transactions they can then push through in a limited amount of time. that's how their performance is calculated, right? so imagine these highly privileged workers who are going be gone tomorrow whose bonus is calculated based on transactions that feel empowered, right, to remake global businesses in their image, right, that they are constantly in a sense

incentivized to push through as many deals as possible precisely because they're not going to be there, they're being paid for it, right? >> you described the perfect scenario. that's what produces looting. >> it creates massive inequality. >> basically get your fee and leave. >> yes. >> what you need to do is build skin in the game so that they are responsible for their loans which you saw in the sub prime crisis. everyone got their fee. you needed to have insecuritization. if it fails, you fail too. >> i think you question of how to fix it has do with incentives. you're innocent faiz dodd things in in the short term to maximize your compensation. so until that changes the incentives won't change. >> i think this gets to an interesting point.

what the -- i think that the question is can the -- can the rules change the norms, right? there are certain norms on wall street and i think they're toxic. you have a great charge i'm taking from your book and i quoted in my own book. this is a sign that was up that you saw in an investment banker's cube call and it's called "process for a high yield deal." on the one side is the official version. pitch prospective cliechlt tell them how great wre at raising junk, meaning junk bonds. the real deal is lie, cheat, steal, and bad mouth your competitors to win the business. and it goes on from there. that to me is a big question. is that -- these norms that are on wall street, can regulation, can rules and changes to incentives change those norms? >> i think so. thank can, but i think we also

have to recognize that part of what constitutions wall street meritocracy, right, that's why people are so surprised they can put these charts up and yet not get largely critiqued for it. the reason being that wall street's willingness to play fast and loose, to lie, cheat, and steal, that's not thought of amongmy wa many wall streeters. but rather as a sign of their merit. i'm above the rules, right, and you have a credit my fastness and looseness, willingness to compromi compromise. you shouldn't dampen that down. so when it says that leads to large-scale thought and white-collar crime. >> i don't want to say he's guilty of fraud or crime but he was someone who had a reputation at goldman as an incredibly

aggressive trader. quietly socking away or making very hedged bets doesn't get you noticed. what gets you noticed is you come in and -- >> there was this idea that if you get caught doing these things that you're not supposed to do and you get fined -- because thee guys don't go to jail, right? we haven't seen the department of justice throw anyone in jail like bill black did. you get fined and it's seen as the cost of doing business and that's the language that they use when they refer to it at the banks. yeah, we'll get fined $2 hup billion for ripping the face off of a client. >> it's a wall street term in which you have done a trade, you have ripped their face and. the funny thing is the other person on the side of your trade

is your client in some other deal, right? there's lo of the mixing. karen ho awe their of "liquidated. "it was a great pleasure to have you here. thanks a lot. >> thank you so much, chris. this at&t 4g network is fast.

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so 29 seconds ago. well we should get them a gift. [ choys ] thanks for the gift! [ amy and rob ] you're welcome! you're welcome! [ male announcer ] get it fast with at&t. the nation's largest 4g network. at&t. ♪ so what you know for the week coming up, you should know the white house is poised to pass the jobs act. even though critics of the bill such as our guest bill frank says it's part of the financial deregulation we saw in the 1990s. you should also know that carolyn maloney has offered to introduce things to the bill to make it better. bill barmt wants to run against scott walker for your the second time in two years. he lost by five points the first time around but after walker pushed his bill, they pushed for a recall. you should know the democratic

primary will be held five weeks from now and barrett will pace off from secretary of state of dug la follow let, the senator has struck down two key parts of that legislation, the parts of the law most kriply making it illegal for them to deduct dues automatically from workers paycheck, to forcing them to hold a vote every year were found to be discriminatory because they did not apply to police and fire unions with also opposed the bill. you should know that after 19 days confined to a cell, environmentalist he's been returned to a minimum security camp. he's serving two years of sentence. he grabbed the paddle to bid up the price. he did that. that ken salazar rescinded 77 of

the auctioned leases that auction as improper. and you should know de-christopher's lawyer says he was confined at a security cell. you should know this week a three-judge panel in the first senior kit court of appeals will hear arguments over whether defense of the math act is unconstitutional. you should know it's the first time the constitutionality has been brought before a federal appellate court and you should know that to their grade caret it. they will have a lawyer at the hear on the side of those opposing it. because the administration is not defending the law, you should know that instead they have hired former house paul clement, the man who argued against the affordable care act this week to defend it. you should know that sergeant dennis wickel will be remembered. he was killed in affect last thursday at the age of 29

leaving three children and a fiancee. he was killed as part of a convoy. he and other children were clearing off the roads when the children were picking up shell casings when one ran back out. he ran after her and was killed by the truck. he saved the little girl. hey, sis...

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♪ in just a second, i'll ask our panel what we should know for the newsweek ahead. but now a preview melissa harris-per harris-perry, what's coming up? >> it's palm sunday, i'm very sad to be missing palm sunday in new orleans. we'll look at who has a monopoly on god and whether or not the left might actually have a way

to discuss ethical and moral issues in language they haven't been good at doing up until this moment. we'll bring a short kind of discussion of trayvon martin and where we are on the case right now and a discussion of the wisconsin showdown. everything from unions to rick santorum. and we will make some fun, because it is april fools' day. >> you know, someone said -- i only realized when i read something preposterous on my twitter feed that it's april fool's day i'll watch with a jaundiced eye. kai wright back at the table. and i'll begin with carolyn maloney. >> the house is on recess for two weeks, so the country is safe. and i would say that we're seeing a tipping point among american women, similar to matthew sheppard and trayvon on the whole war against women, and

150 companies have withdrawn their advertising from rush limbaugh's show protesting his disrespect and attacks on the young woman that we tried to testify on a hearing on birth control, and contraception and reproductive rights and preventative health care for tens of millions of people, showing their outrage, and it is deep and its strong and i'm amazed at the whole social media response to that. not only in what we discussed earlier today, but with women across the country voicing this and major companies like jcpenney withdrawing their advertising and saying they are not going back. >> you sit on the committee with darryl isiah who called only a man to testify and you wanted sandra flock to testify, at goorgetown university, and since they are a catholic institution, and they didn't cover birth

control. and that's the beginning. kai wright, what should people know as the week unfolds? >> two things. one in the spirit of the the conversation today, we should know regulation works. i learned myself that this will be the last tax season that any major banks will be involved in what are called rapid refund loans that have strips tens of millions, hundreds of millions out of low-income taxpayers because the regulators over the last few years -- >> have cracked down and driven the banks out of it. so it goes on. >> you can only get to a certain scale because you don't have the backing of large banks. we should also known i am not as sick as i thought i was. i hadn't read the hunger games, hasn't heard of the hunger games. and lots of people have. >> breaking news kyron going for

that. >> i'm out of touch. but regulation works. >> regulation and children pitted against each other to kill each other. alexis goldstein, what should people know? >> two things. one if people in new york are curious about occupy wall street and haven't had a way to plug in. everyone should know, every saturday at 2:00 p.m. in union square, we have an orientation. just e-mail orientation@nyc.net. and this marks six months of 0 0 general assembly. >> john mcwhorter, what should people know? >> the discussion we've had, starting with trayvon martin and talking about wall street, has me thinking about a book that i

just started, that i think everybody who is inclined to should take a look at, by robert boyd and peter richarson, not richardson. and its called "not by genes alone" cultures can outlive their usefulness and when it comes to florida, the whole stand your ground culture, can be traced to people who were herders who needed to stand their ground in conflicts and here we have these two people having this hideous occasion and the culture of wall street, maybe a reason for some of these things in a different time. they have outlived the usefulness, and this book "not by genes alone" is my book of the week to pull a david brooks. >> that was very deftly sewed up. a ribbon around the whole show. i'm reading a great book called "why nations fail" by an economist, political scientists, about the ways in which economic

and political institutions are so crucial for prosperity and success. we'll have the authors on it hopefully on the program. i want to thank my guests, carolyn maloney and kai wright from colorlines.com and alexis goldstein from occupy the sec and kai wright, thank you for joining us. we'll be back next weekend, saturday, surge, at 8:00 eastern time. guests will include former obama green divider van jones and joan walsh. up next, melissa harris-perry and we'll see you next week here on "up." [ donovan ] i hit a wall. and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going.

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