>> good morning from new york, i'm chris hayes. rescue operations are underway in pakistan where government officials tell mbc news an avalanche buried more than 150 pakistan soldiers. some good news, even is acounted for after yesterday's navy jet crash that injured people there. right now, i'm joined by msnbc political analyst joan walsh. josh returning to the program and sometimes the national review online, although maybe not so much anymore, guys, we'll be discussing in just a bit. we also have for the first time, my great pleasure to present anne freedman. author of a new book you should check out, it's called "rebuild the dream" and he's cofounder of a group that has the same name.

mitt romney's sweep tuesday that president obama would be facing the former massachusetts governor in the general election. the clock on that game has already started with both men wasting no time. it was such an interesting little set speech. the speeches this week, both the president and romney had a message for the press. the president's speech was particularly interesting because he chastised the press with the facts where one side is wrong and the other is right. here's the president making his case in washington on tuesday. >> i think that there is oftentimes the impulse to suggest that if the two parties are disagreeing, then they're equally at fault and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

and an equivalence is presented which reinforces cynicism about washington in general. >> i thought it was fascinating because it sounded like a daily coast diary. and i don't mean that -- i mean that respectfully. i mean that in a way that that is something that people have been hip to in this for a while. and to hear the president actually say it making it to the associated press, i thought it was a fascinating bit of frontal assault. >> and he has learned. remember he wrote that diary and he took us on the left to task for exaggerating things and for going too far and he s. but after these three years, he has seen light. this is really damaging to the country as well as his administration. >> i think that is an emerging

story. it's that they came in -- this is the story that's increasingly on the left. essentially, they came in, goodwill, thinking that they could essentially, through good faith and effort and openness, they could revive and redeem and then they learned their lesson. sfwl it sounds crazy now, but let's not forget, john mccain that gave some respect for the idea that we were tired of the george bush polarization. john mccane ran on captain trey to create jobs. so there was a view that you had at least a part of the rep republican party that might come along in the middle of the biggest economic crisis since the great depression.

and surprise, never mind all of that stuff, we're going to stop this guy no matter what it takes. >> i just find it kind of whining. i think the president has never really had any idea how to get it right with this congress. you can look at fiscal policy. plan a was a stimulus, and then, you know, when it became clear that the president that more of that was needed, plan b was more stimulus. and then plan c was to complain about how congress would not pass another stimulus. >> for example, i think, you know -- >> you mean change the right answer just because congress didn't like it? >> yes, i think he could have said i will push more on monetary and try to push the fed more. >> that's true. >> he could have pushed more on housing policy. there were alternatives when he couldn't get his agenda through to congress.

he then just complains they won't do what they want, the media won't push me to do what i want them to do. >> let me say this. yeah, he complains. but all presidents complain about the press. we should say. >> reagan -- >> whenever you go back and read letters of presidents or you read their memoirs, i feel like they spend all of their time complaining about the press. sometimes like really super obscure stuff. it's like, really? exactly. no, that's the thing. it really does get under your skin. here, to me, is the perfect example. i think the president is teeing something that is fundamentally true and profound. there's two sort of structural changes in american politics. one is part of polarization, right? we see this in congress in terms of parties voting in a block more and more often. but it's asymmetrical.

the republicans are moving to the right, the democrats are moving to the left. a press that is committed to the balance has a very hard time of talking about asymmetricalization. as a perfect example, after he gives his speech, the a.p. fact-checks the speech. and this is what they say. and the president was talking about the fact that policies formerly have been abandoned by the, you know, by the republicans at sorbism. the mandate being the perfect example cooked up in cabin trade, also. if republicans had moved to the right in health care, it's also true that obama has moved to the left. he strenuously opposed a mandate forcing people to obtain health insurance until he won office and changed his mind. but that's not moving to the left. this, to me, is perfect. he goes up there, he says, look, don't fall into the trap of false equivalence, right? and then they fact check him by saying no, no, no, you move to

the left because you endorsed a mandate. now, what universe is the individual mandate moving to the left? >> this is the crazy thing. that was the right inquisition. that's the heritage saying we don't need big government, we need individual responsibility. obama says you're right. we're going to go your way. and then the republicans become the pro-moocher caucus. dive bomb yourself, in the emergency room, the government will take care of it. that's how far they're willing to go even back around to a crazy position. they will shoot any idea if it hits this president. but the media can't see it. >> well, they can't because they structurally can't. >> they can see it. i think that the problem is that there's no greater value of honor for a newspaper reporter or somebody who's recovering politics. >> so what's your theory about

how this is looking? why don't democrats win all the elections? we have this two party seasonal. is it that the media has fooled everybody? >> i think the median voter theory has some big theoretical weaknesses. i think, b, 2010 was the worst financial crisis in a very, very long time and people were in tons of objective economic pain and voted out the incumbent party. and third of all, yes, i do think that if the app stemmic terms upon which you view thicks does not allow for the possibility of a symmetry, it is impossible to communicate. so people do not see it asymmetry. asymmetry itself is defined out of bounds of how this is reported. so the mandate is a perfect example. when you say that, when you say

he moved to the left, that is because you cannot come up with any kind of objective metric. anything outside the frame of who's saying what to compare things. . they don't have the vocabulary to do that. to me, it shows this fundamental absence of the perceptual skills to actually have the conversation. >> it's a media problem, but it's also a movement problem. if you have a strong left, the single pair option would have been the obvious left position. you didn't have that. what you have is this precompromised public option thing. so then you wind up with the individual mandate as if that's what the left wanted. but is it not having an independent left, the progressive left, to stick up

for carbon tax and to stick up for progressive ideas. >> it also helps to be able to say obama is disappointing the far left. that's like for reporters, they would love nothing more to say that. >> which is why, actually, i always thought it was strange. reporting on the president in those first two years, you would think they would love nothing more than getting beaten up by the far left. that allows them to say, look, we're the center. but that was not the way they went about things. they told the far left to such as it was in washington, d.c., although that was circumscribed quite a bit. but they basically told them to pipe down, to shut up and be team players and not to criticize them. and so you didn't get that productive dynamic. >> i want to talk about this as a piece that was written by a

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>>. because neither party is blameless, both parties have a responsibility to solve it. i've told leaders of both parties that they must come up with a fair compromise in the next few days that can pass both. if each side wants a hundred percent of what identity's eyed logical predispositions are, then we can't get anything done. >> so that's the president speaking about path parties and polarization. and that's an interesting

tension in which he was saying. and then this is him before the a.p. lunch sort of eninstructing them to think about it in these terms. this is what he told me to look out for. >> so as all of you are doing your reporting, i think it's important to remember the issues i'm taking on the budget and a host of other issues, if we had been having this discussion 20 years ago, or even 15 years ago, would have been considered squarely central positions. what's changed is the center of the republican party. and that's certainly true with the budget. >> josh? >> i think this is revisionist history. people tend to -- i think

liberals tend to row momanticiz. >> that is definitely true. >> ronald reagan, all the liberals run around. >> oh, they raise taxes so often. how great. so i think if you look at what republicans wanted 15 or 20 years ago, the george bush senior budget that raised taxes, most republicans hated that budget. he got a very strong challenge -- or anyone. in large part because of that tax increasing budget. i think the president overestimates how much republicans would have been in the past especially to the extent the president's budget raises revenue. it's entirely on the top 2% of taxpayers. so it involves more revenue than republicans want or really have ever wanted. >> let me make this point, though. in terms of -- and i think you're right. there is this sort of nostalgia

to the scene as the good republicans. you see the liberals writing all the time. and now it's so crazy. >> at the time i don't remember. >> but i do think it is rational in this sense. if it is the case the republican party is moving further and further to the right, than it is the case that you do pine for its previous position. so if john mccain is the case, it is also the case that john mccain endorsed one and it is also really the case that the republican party will vote for a climate bill. >> just another really obscure tax thing that you'll love. the whole idea that people at the bottom don't pay taxes.

the earn ed income tax credit ws expanded by both bushes. now every republican is slamming it and acting like they don't know why it exists. we're trying to subsidize them but encourage work. and now that's off the table. that's focused now. >> but as a media question, looking at this is sort of like obama came at this from a media angle. not from the center has moved from washington politics. in the media. and, honestly, the problem here is there's no context, right? the fact that we're talking about republicans had asked and democrats said why like let's talk to some scientists in our political coverage. this idea that you eve got your science analysis in one place and he said, she said washington story in another place is actually what creates this dynamic. they don't seek out, you know, well, how do we find exactly

what's in between these two parties. >> i think that if you're the person assigned to cover the campaign or to cover politic, you're not a budget mark. so when your debate is on the budget, you just sort of think i'm covering what the two sides are saying. i'm actually not in a position to independently adjudicate this dispute. i feel that as a journalist when i way into something. we have this debate on a very obscure piece of financial reform legislation that had to do with swaps facilities. and so you fired -- i was like, well, i would like to adjudicate. but i have no idea what you're talking about. more often than not, political reporters find themselves in a similar situation. i think that has to do with the culture. >> yes, good point. >> i just do want to go back to your point if i, you know, have a book out and i try to get into some of this stuff. don't forget, john mccain did

substantiate upright at the end of his campaign and there was a woman who said barack obama is an arab. and mccain said no, stop. he's a decent man. he to do up two weeks from his election to the worst part of his party. that is a big change. and we've got to reck fizz, now, that we have, i think asymmetry. and now people come up with bad ideas about how to fix it. they say there's too much partisan ship. no, there's too much right wing extreme partisan ship. so is the answer for us to continue to chase them? the dog race chases that little electronic bunny all the way around. always wants to keep chasing him all the way around the barn. >> this segway's nicely. you wrote a great piece about conservatives to write and race. and i want to get to that right after we take this break. ♪ i can do anything

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in the wake of trayvon martin's death, plenty of black journalists have written extensively about advice. and what we've learned from zimmerman is sometimes that talk doesn't even have to be about a police officer. natural review writer has written a piece for tuckey's magazine which i had never heard of until this piece. that's largely the case for most people. about how to deal with black people. i'm going to read you some of the things he says he tells them. 10 d which is a long list of things, do not attend events likely to draw a lot of blacks. 10 e, if you are at some public event at which the number of blacks suddenly swells, leave as quickly as possible. it is one of the most sort of validly racist things that i've seen in a long time. he has a reputation for being --

i was just saying during the break, i think he's a valid racist. he thinks white people are superior to black people and he writes about that in the piece and all of this i.q. craziness. what is really interesting to me is he is a contributor to the national review. and one of the things that happens about race is that the right feels that it is unfairly called racist all of the time. that it is constantly being singled out and that liberals use the race card and accusations of racism are way too liberally. and it's unfair. and i think you have people in your coalition, which are they part of? you can say i have nothing to do with them and they are people in the left that have crazy ideas and i don't want to be associated with them. when you have actual pillars of that coalition, that's where policing of those boundaries has

to happen. you wrote about the right and race even before this. what was the piece you wrote about? >> it was basically this, people on the right said i said this thing about what i said was perfectly reasonable and people called me a racist and that's so unfair. what i said about that basically is people on the right get this because there is quite a lot of racism on the right. there's this sort of universe that's trading in a lot of racist ideas and more on the right than on the left. and if you want your commentary on race to be taken seriously, you need to stand up and say that this isn't acceptable and this doesn't belong on the right and i'm not going to publish people who write things like this. i think, you know, i think ben brought up something important with john mccain standing up to that voter in 2008. i think this cycle, they've been afraid to stand up to elements in the base.

these people don't run the party. if they ran the party, romney would not be the nominee. at this point, they've not shown the courage that john mccain showed in 2008. in the long term, it's going to rock the right. i think it's important to stand up to these people and say no, that's not acceptable. >> i think it's important that every time there is some incident in the news that has a racial sub text or a racial charge or is racially polarizing, it's always an opportunity for really hard core racists to do something really racic. but you get something, you raise the temperature a little bit and sure enough. >> start talking about black people at all and sure enough. >> and that seems like one of the dynamics here. >> it's not just about alienating or supporting the

racist within a party. i feel like there's this whole apparatus that is defense based, right, around years of sort of, i don't know, feeling that they've been unfairly called racist. so the idea that it's even worse to be called a racist than it is to espouse racist views and really, who you're insulting is everyone who is white or everyone who is identified with the party. it's not just that sort of subset. >> well, i also found it really disturbing that a lot of this became partisan once the president said what he said. and that just felt so wrong to me. but what it made me realize is there is this kind of out rage machine -- >> ya think? >> it's like bill oreiley and the rest are waiting to point out that this president is going

to turn the tables on us. and if he says something about a black child, than he would not care about a white child. it's preposterous. but they do it over and over again. >> i just wanted to say a couple things. you mentioned the president's statement. that was a very important moment. this is clearly the third act in a three-act play. the first speech he made about race was on the campaign trail. probably the highest point is under incredible fire and shown incredible grace and talk to americans like grown folks. and america rose to that occasion. now he's president. he's the most powerful man on earth. skip gates gets arrested in his own house, unprecedented. the president says what everybody in america would say, well, that was foolish. the white backlash that's sort of whipped up comes down on him like a ton of bricks and he's forced to do a beer summit from

across the table and the entire black moral witness falls silent. except for tavist and cornel west, you don't hear anymore black commentary. when the most powerful man in the world can't say the word black, nobody can. and then this child dies. and the president says if i had a son, he would look like this child. you couldn't believe how that felt to say finally, he's back. he can talk to americans as if we're grown people and say the things that are obvious and not worry that somehow this out rage machine is going to shut down his moral witness and it was incredibly important. >> and what i thought was interesting, too, you talk about this out rage machine which is a central part of american politics at this point. i thought that comment is -- and this just shows my own sort of, you know, the way i'm sealed.

i thought it was so deftly done. he spoke to it, but he said if i had a son. he said i do not want this to end up with george zimmerman in front of the white house for a beer. you know what i mean? >> we could be there. >> i think it was a deft comment. >> the out rage about it was fake. and i don't think that, you know, i don't think that republicans at large were going to be the runner up for the nomination. and so i think, you know, i think while there is this out rage machine and i think the really -- the real problem for the right and its media right now is not so much people like john darbeshire but the focus on the washington free beacon and such who see their mission,

basically, as whipping up these fake out rages, a lot of which have to do with race which is not only embarrassing, but it's a -- i don't see how anyone thinks this is a good strategy. you have this pseudoscandal about the dnc. well, first of all, the scandal is stupid. but are conservatives actually gaining anything? i think it's that short term interest. it's in your short term interest to get things up. long term, you're going to blow everything up. the only real way to fight it and the price one man is paying for doing it. my story of the week right after this. grees. medicated pain relief you store in the freezer. brrr...see ya boys. [ male announcer ] new bengay zero degrees. freeze and move on.

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and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers. this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way. devry university, proud to support the education of our u.s. olympic team. story of the week, civil disobedience as a final report. last week, we told you a little bit about a 30-year-old man named tim dechristopher.

he's serving a two-year sentence for an act of civil disobedience. in 2008, deviewiest fer attended a land of federal energy leases. his original intent was to join a protest outside, but he went into the auction where he grabbed a bidding paddle and bought leases totaling $1.8 billion. he wanted to disrupt the process by which federal land is turned over to fossil fuel companies without consideration for effects on the climate the burning of that extracted fuel will have. the auction was a fire put together by the bush administration of drilling on land near several national parks. obama's secretary of interior would later cancel all the leases that were set for that

day saying they were rushed. and this is how dechristopher in his own words explains his actions. >> i'm not looking to be a martyr or anything like that. i've seen the need for more serious action. by the environmental movement and to protect a future for all of us. i've seen that need for a long time. and, frankly, i've been hoping that someone would step up and someone would come out and be the leader and someone would put themselves on the line and make the sacrifice as necessary to get us on the path to a more livable future. and i guess i just couldn't wait any longer for someone to come out there. >> the federal government seems intent on making him one. in 2009, he was invited for making false and fraudulent statements and for violating the performance. last year, he was convicted on

both of the counts against him and sentenced to two years in federal prison. the rule of law is the bedrock of our civilized society, not acts of civil disobedience committed in the name of the cause of the day. huber had been speaking in any age, channelling the voice of the powers that be of the establishment and even the sympathetic and prudent levels. they turn up their noses at civil disobedience. those who work in channels of decent outside of the petition gathering and door knocking. no one got more criticism of this kind than martin luther king, jr. here's one instance. >> but dr. king, this is a nation that lives on the law above the supreme court.

equal justice are each of us to decide when it's all right to break a law? we have congress to change a law. we have the courts to interpret the law. are you going beyond them? >> afocus, in hindsight, those who successfully pursued are seen as saints and prophets. but their contemporaries leave them as scone drawls. as if they are seizing for themselves some special right causing conflict. but if there's any one challenge we now face that is screaming out for a mass movement, a sustained, direct, nonviolent action, it is the challenge of climate change. we have tried politics as usual, and it has been a colossal failure. even with the largest majority in both houses, democrats were unable able to get the senate to vote on a climate bill. now, those historic margins are gone. and one entire side of the

political spectrum with the conservative movement and the republican party that it controls has made denial a badge of pride and tribal symbol of virtue. any politician who had previously supported policies to reduce carbon emissions and mitigate can taste rah fiau has had to recant. even the president has been cowed into endorsing an all of the above energy strategy that includes domestic oil production to the highest level in eight years. no federal solution is possible in anything resembling the near term. and, yet, the clock ticks. the earth's atmosphere does not care about the filibuster. its patterns are changing before our eyes. last month alone, u.s. cities recorded 6,000 record high dates. the only hyperbole is to push forward other than electoral politics.

one of the biggest that is managing to stop authorization of the pipeline. when activists first started mobilizing, almost everyone figured it was a done deal. but when activists showed up by the hundreds, they pushed the issue into the news, highlighted the environmental impacts and somewhat miraculously helped turn the pipeline into a political football. it is now on hold. every day that it is delayed, however, is a day that more of the carbon stays in the ground. and that's really what this is about. finding ways to disrupt our normal system of the extracks and burning of fuel because it is that very normalcy that is endangering our lives. at a sentencing hearing, he gave a statement to the court about why he did what he did. it's a stirring document.

giving the instruction over democratic institutions that once gave citizens access to power, my future will likely involve civil disobedience. i don't mean that in any sort of disrespectful way at all, but you don't have that authority. i have no desire to go to prison and any assertion is false. i want you to join me in standing up for the right and responsibility of citizens to challenge their government. i want you to join me in evaluating this country's rich history. this is not going away. at this point of unimaginable threats on the horizon, this is what hope looks like. this is what patriotism looks like. with countless lives on the line, this is what love looks like and it will only grow. the choice you are making today is what side are you on? i want our guests to speak on

this and i want our guests to speak with tim dechristopher's lawyer coming up. ♪ you do ♪ something to me ♪ that nobody else could do the chevy cruze eco also offers 42 mpg on the highway. actually, it's cruze e-co, not ec-o. just like e-ither. or ei-ther. or e-conomical. [ chuckling ] or ec-onomical.

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tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 joining me now is patrick shay and former director of the bureau of land management. patrick, thanks for joining us this morning. >> glad to be here. >> can you tell me a little bit about how this case proceeded and why you think the government pursued it as vigorously as they did? a few of the facts seem incredibly mitigating. the fact that after the auction, dechristopher is able to make the down payment on the leases that he purchased. the fact that other people in the past had been unable to pay for leases that they bought at auction. what do you think was driving the government's vigorous prosecution there? >> well, i think you have to think of three different levels. the first is the people who ran the operation at the bureau of land management were embarrassed

by a very smart, young, college student. he didn't grab a bidding thing. he was offered. the employees said to him are you a bidder? he said well, yes, i am. and he signed the form which was the document they used to prosecute him. so at that level, they were bureaucrats. but at a more important level, it goes to your earlier quoting of his statement at the sentencing hearing. the people in the administration who are feeding the fossil fuel supporters were the ones who finally had their political shenanigan's revealed. the proceedings had not been properly laid down. and this was one example when i was director. if you were going to come in and bid, you had to have a letter of credit and you had to have some way of showing that you could actually pay for it.

in the hay day of the bush administration, anybody could walk up the street and participate. if you didn't have a name for them, they called them bid walkers. there were 29 other individuals who showed up at these auctions who bid and then failed to pay. the other was the fossil fuel industry. in 2003 and 2004, william coke of the coke brothers had entered into an agreement with another energy company to fix the bidding. and when that was finally revealed because one of coke's executives became a federal whistle blower, they had to pay $275,000 fine, but they got to keep their illegitimate bids. and nobody was penalized.

>> and a young college student who is intelligent and has a love for this country is sitting in prison in california and up until last week, was in isolation because he had supposedly threatened somebody by giving back a donation to a donor whose policies he disagreed with. >> i want to hear a little bit more about that. we can talk more right after we take this break. ah, welcome to hotels.com.

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that he was taken from the general population and put into quasi isolation. i think he had one other sell meat, because of an e-mail he

sent to reporters basically saying someone who's donating to us who wants to oversee job -- out source jobs and give his donation back. an unnamed member of congress was able to get him order-moved out of the general population. is that right? >> well, again, i think you have to have read kofka as the trial, where you'll recall that the victim didn't know why he was there, who his judge was and who his execution ne'er was. in tim's case, he had sent an e-mail and the bureau of prisons has an algorithm that reads all the e-mails. and if certain words or phrases are used, than that's eh vail waited. when i was director of the bureau of land management, if i wanted to initiate something but i didn't want it coming from myself, i would have one of the staff call one of our former staff people who worked on the hill either for a congressperson or the committee and say, you know, if you asked director shaye this question, then, you

know, we'd be able to do something. sure enough, that would happen. and i think that's what happened here. and then that gave them the right to isolate him, as happens in prisons. i've represented prisoners for more than 30 years. and, you know, sometimes when there are gang problems or there's illicit material coming into prison, they do have to isolate the prisoner. but in tim's case, it was purely, in my judgment, a political motive to intimidate him and to silence his voice. i think the statement you read from his sentencing hearing clearly indicates how articulate he is, both about climate change and about civil disobedience. and he truly, in my eyes, is a champion for the future. the enemies of progress, as

you've seen by how he's treated, are very threatened by the intelligence and the integrity by something like tim dechristopher has. >> if it was an act of civil disobedience, isn't part of it embracing one's punishment? when you break the law, van jones is objecting. that what do you think? >> well, i think that's right. but the punishment should fit the crime. there have been multiple people who have done this. there's this thing with the thunder bird a few years ago. nobody went to jail. who you who should go to jail? the third coke brother who's -- this whole thing was an illegal sale. if the u.s. attorney wants to enforce law and order, give the kid a fine and put the people who are selling land illegally in jail. why are they not in jail? >> i should also note that this

happened -- please, patrick, go ahead. >> no, i think one of the problems i have, and i thoroughly agree which means you take the punishment of the lawyer objecting to. but judge benson who had been appointed to that court refused to allow us as the legal defense team to mention climate change, to even a lao tim to describe his intent. an intent or mens rea is a part of the criminal process that is enshined in the fifth amendment. this is what we'll be arguing on may tenth. but the judge made a fundamental mistake in trying to silence tim. >> patrick shea, thank you today for joining me. more after this break.

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>> good morning from new york, i'm here with josh barrow of forbes.com. good magazine and the author of "rebuild the dream" i don't use czar. advisedly. >> we just talked about tim dechristopher who is doing two years in prison for bidding on an auction -- bidding on what was later deemed an illegal auction. henry david thorough and martin luther king, jr. when he wrote in 1849, unjust laws exist. shall we be content to obey them until we have succeeded or shall we transgress them at once. if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then i

say break the law. let your life be a counter friction to stop the machine. our history is still amazing. and largely forgotten stories of people fighting injustice. they were force fed and beaten in prison. in 1932, 43,000 world war i vetteder rans occupy d.c., literally. built from material skiveaged by a nearby dump to provide them with immediate payments of their server certificates. in the 1970s and 1980s, members used their bodies to block entry to power plants, broke into factories and hammered on and poured their own blood on the machinery and weapons parts. next week, a group is aiming to train a hundred thousand people across the country in nonviolent action preparing for more protests against economic

inequality and disrupting the shareholder meetings of multinationals along with a series of student-led actions against sally may and others who have profited. van, you're involved in this training. do you think there has been -- it seems to me there's been a real mark movement of energy resource focus on a kind of rediscovery of this tradition recently in the last few years. why do you think that is? >> well, it's because of what's happened in the last couple of years. i have a book out called rebuild the dream. i take this point of view having been a grass roots outsider and then a white house insider and now a grass roots insider again. you can change this country from d.c. down. it's got to be bottom up and top down. and the bottom up has been missing until this past fall, you have the young people with 350.org who broke the seal and said we are going to do civil

disobedience against the obama white house. everybody says oh, no, this can't happen. you'll be destroyed. and, instead, what happened is they got a big victory on keystone. and then that was august. and in september, the young people who launch ed occupy wal street. they changed overnight from austerity to economic inequality. initially, there was this big fear. there's young people doing the stuff and the liberal left establishment is going to coopt them. turns out they've coopted us. i've got a list of the top organizatio organizations, global exchange, working families party, cwa, rebuild the dream, dozens of groups that say you know what, they were right and we're now going to be training a hundred thousand people to be able to do this all across the country.

>> i remember there was a night i was watching and you were say wag are we doing now? just breaking the law for the point of breaking the law? what's your sense? >> i think your position is remarkably extreme. it's basically any time that you decide that a law is wrong, you seem to be justifying the idea that you then get to break et. and, further more, that it's wrong for the government to try to punish you. >> no, no, no. that's not wrong. the thing is with civil disobedience, that's why we're saying we're telling you who we're going to be protesting. it's not about not accepting responsibility. but it is about saying this system has been improved both by insiders and outsiders, the outsiders need to start speaking up now. >> this is exactly the place we got to which is i responded and said i think you're saying

something very extreme because by your own justification is it's hard to see how you say it's okay for martin luther king jr. to do what he did. what is the rubric? at the time, it was just, as we saw in meet the press, was are we just going to break every law? >> at the time, black americans were excluded from the political process. in the south, they often effectively couldn't vote. so i think that civil disobedience wuss the channel that was available to them because the government was denying them their rights. activists have access to the political process. they just keep losing. so this isn't -- when you have a position in a policy issue and you lose, that doesn't necessarily mean that the system is corrupt, it just means you lost. and so i think the reason -- there's a lot of hampering about

what's happening. i think it's very easy to understand which is that the bottom fall tis out of that economy. >> it's actually the way it's become this sort of culture war issue that's been leveraged by the right. that is not -- that's distinct from the bottom falling out of the economy. >> i think it's directly related. >> yeah, it was starting before the bottom was falling out of the economy. and i guess the other thing is, yes, we love the civil rights movement. it was excellent. but going back abided, you know, the new deal was not handed to us. there were wildcat strikes. there comes a time in american history where the channels are not working. i agree, we shouldn't break every law. but nobody's talking about breaking every law.

there are just points where the system is so broke -- >> define access. >> yeah, that's the thing. i think josh actually -- that's actually a decent operating procedure to say when you 'actually excluded from the political system, then these other methods make sense. it's my perception that the individual who -- or even the collection of individuals don't really have access to the people who are pulling the levers. >> yeah. josh, actually, i think you make a good point. there has to be some more cal klaus here. i think the challenge that we have here is that whether you're talking about the environmental crisis, whether you're talking about the people who destroyed our economy on wall street that we do not seem to have the ability, even with democratic in control of the senate, we don't seem to have the system to respond.

>> we've gone through the looking glass now. it's some kind of corporate democracy and that the people are going to have to ramp up our voices. i'll tell you what, the tea party taught us a ton. they didn't do the civil disobedience peace, but they did show that passion can change the conversation and that's's what we've got to do. what the tea party did is they have these protests. and then what do they go do? they target republicans as much as democrats and then they went out and voted. i think this spring piece is the protest piece. you also see other people who are beginning to move. the problem we had early on was could you do both. i think we've got to do both. we've got to reelect as president. we've got to retake congress. but we have to rejoin this movement. >> let may say this in terms of

where my own feelings on this, right. it's an interesting point to say just because you're losing, it's corrupt. but for people who are jubilate viewiests, they feel the system is corrupt. and i would say, yes, go pursue nonviolent, nonviolent, nonviolent civil disobedience. go get arrested. and do i like that? no. am i going to go cheer them on? no. but i think that's fully on the table as a mechanism. so let's say lots of people come in and put fake bids in blm auctions, it would disrupt the blm auction process. would it be valid to say you shouldn't send me to jail for the fraud i committed? >> i can't adjudicate. i mean, i don't think that's a proper sentence.

i agree that, like, part of the main problem here, the funny thing about thorough, of course, is he refused to pay the poll source. side note, i think that, yeah, you have to embrace the punishment of the certain level. and obviously, all of that tradition comes from that. >> gandhi would write a letter and say here's the names and addresses of everyone participating. and we are going to do it at this time on this date because the point is, we're not ambushing you. we want you to be fully prepared to arrest us. we feel it is a moral responsibility to rake break unjust laws. but the punishment needs to address the crime. >> i want to talk about something that has been lighting up the internet and news this week. pink slime? we tried to get some. we don't have any, unfortunately. the arguments for pink slime,

pink slime became a political issue. we always hear about jobs leaving america. here's a chance to create jobs in america. oil sands projects, like kearl, and the keystone pipeline will provide secure and reliable energy to the united states. over the coming years, projects like these could create more than half a million jobs in the us alone. from the canadian border, through the mid west, to the gulf coast. benefiting hundreds of thousands of families throughout the country. this is just what our economy needs right now.

all right, a few months ago, i was on face book and i saw this photo. >> god, that's gross. it looks like strawberry soft serve. and the photo has gone viral. now, the photo i saw called it pink slime. although, subsequent research reveals it appears to be separated from chicken, which is another appetizing con conduction. but not such head liblines that the beef industry calls lean, finely textured beef.

we do know where it came from. it was in a 2002 e-mail message from a usda microbiologist to colleagues. it's in 70% of the ground beef we buy in supermarkets. it's served in restaurants and school lunches. here's chef jamie oliver, a pink slime skeptic giving his version of the process by which this substance is created. over here, i have something you know well. they don't put it in a washing machine, but they put in these trimmings and they put it into a center fudge and they spin it. it splits the fat from the meet and separates it. so then you end up with stuff like this. it's important. you end up with all the very last bits of meat. and what you do is fascinating.

to me, as a chef and a food lover is shocking. you saw one of these probably under the sink. and in there is going to be all of your household chemicals. stuff that you don't want your kids getting their hands on. the key ingredients of the process is ammonia. we're going to wash these lean bits of beef that we've spun around will in a water and ammonia solution. >> basically they wash this meat and that kills the pathogens. so then we drain it. we drain it and then we mince it. so basically we're taking a product that would be sold at the cheapest form. and after this process, we can give it to humans. >> we should have had an if you're eating brunch warning. >> i mentioned earlier, jamie oliver show, a whole piece by

the new york times years ago. that -- there's a backlash now. and it's sort of zesting because this weak, it's reached a crescendo. and i went calling for con greeksal investigation into a smear campaign against the meat product got started. >> this is just a smear campaign of misinformation. and they've done it on the social networks and they've done it with some celebrity chefs and it's just been clear, bogus, sort of misinformation. if they get by with this, what other food product are they going to attack next? >> other beef producing states have joined the governor saying the beef is safe and vegetarians want to take their meat away. among commentators watching it all unfold, there's backlash to the backlash, a number of cases for the pink slime.

one of the producers of the so called pink slime filed for chapter 11 protection. and beef products inc has idled three of its four plants. there's also the issue of supply and demand. less, lean, finally textured beef means more will be slaughter. it could go up as much as 25 cent a pone. pound. he wrote the book "food matters: a guide to conscious eating." i love your cook books, my mom is a huge fan. she called me up to show how excited she was. so let's start with this issue. i want to kind of -- there's a bunch of things that are bound up in this story and i think that's why it sees people's imagination.

the idea of eating the nasty bits, the scraps, right, people are now making well, waste not, want not. shouldn't we be trying to find some way to salvage every last little cell of these animals? what's your sort of response? >> well, that's why sausage was invented. sausage has things that are not really appealing to you to eat as they look coming off of the animal. this is an extreme force of sausage. but the issue is not so much the pink slime itself. the issue is why does it exist. and it exists because you can, you know, you can spin why do you have to treat it with ammonia? the problem is why are you treating it with ammonia. well, that's because of the way cattle are raised now, use a great deal of e. coli and solomonal law is in the meet.

meat and this has more than most meat. it's, you know, the ammonia thing, yeah. cattle are meant to eat grass. we feed them grain. that's a big deal. we feed them grain because we're raising them by the tens of thousands. because we feed them grain, their digestive systems are screwed up. they're wonderful breeding grounds for e. coli and salmonela. our animals are not healthy. they're sick. so we give them drugs. they're all stressed from day one. and the whole idea is that chickens this week which maybe we'll get to. but the whole idea is that they're born and they're just forced to eat and grow as fast as they possibly can.

they don't necessarily eat what's good for them. they just eat what makes them grow as quickly as possible. so, long story short is they have these bacteria in them. those bacteria get transferred to meat. that bacteria has to get dealt with. so, you know, the pink slime, it's gross, it's totally gross. but it's not the problem. it's a symptom. the ammonia, this is a public health issue. we have this meat that we acknowledge is, say infected or likely to be infected. so we're taking steps to get rid of that infection. we're radiating it which, is not done but could be done. and, you know, there's a couple of issues here. one is budget cuts as deregulation and the other is democracy. terry brandstead doesn't think we have a right to know what

goes in our food. there's the degree to which it capture's people's intuitive sen sense. >> it's the civil disobedience. if you have a courageous citizen or a group of courageous citizens, yeah, who's willing to come forward and say here's what's going on. here's what's wrong. let's see what we can do. and now the decisions cannot be made so readily without people knowing of that. because of twitter and facebook and everything else. >> one is this group called change didn't org. it's not the government, it was a mob who just put up a petition who said i don't want my kid eating this pink slime. that's good old first amendment tough.

>> yeah, and the system -- please, josh. i think there's just kind of an error of focus here. i think, you know, first of all, you have a competitive market here so you can -- there, in fact, are premium beef products sold that people can buy this because they want to know that there's no pink slime or whatnot. people focus on oh, that's gross. or they focus on ammonia which isn't really a problem. there's only about 3,000 deaths a year from food-bourn illness. but the really dangerous thing, you're 11 times more likely to die in a car accident. there's all sorts of daniellis in life. the thing that is most dangerous about the way we eat beef is that we eat way too much of it. people are freaking out that

there might be this gross product. the diet is on overall healthy. >> that's exactly right. and the reason that we have to chemically extract meat from bones is the fact that we are killing 8 billion animals a year in the united states. and that's where the problem lies. >> that number is so up sitting. 8 billion. i want to talk about the 8 billion chickens that we kill every year in the u.s. and some -- >> this is the key issue. >> right after this break. [ male announcer ] this is the network -- a living, breathing intelligence teaching data how to do more for business. [ beeping ] in here, data knows what to do. because the network finds it and tailors it across all the right points, automating all the right actions... [ beeping ] ...to bring all the right results.

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guys. come here, come here. [ telephone ringing ] i'm calling my old dealership. [ man ] may ford. hi, yeah. do you guys have any crossovers that offer better highway fuel economy than the chevy equinox? no, sorry, sir. we don't. oh, well, that's too bad. [ man ] kyle, is that you? [ laughs ] [ man ] still here, kyle. [ male announcer ] visit your local chevy dealer today. right now, very well qualified lessees can get a 2012 equinox ls for around $229 a month. talking about the politics of food, our food system, how we get the food that we eat, pink slime, et cetera. the agricultural department's food safety and inspection service has proposed a new inspection system for poultry

slaughter. it's known for critical control points. what that means is they plan to eliminate 800 poultry inspector positions and allow companies to speed up processing from 140 chickens per minute to 200 and also remove the external usda government employee inspectors who are now in the plants and allow the processing facilities to monitor themselves. >> what could possibly go wrong? the government says they have pilot programs and there's not more -- a higher risk of food bourn illness than the other. the other, a bunch of whistle blowers who say they've seen, up close, that particularly when the line is being sped up, you have a inspector sitting there. a quarter of a second per chicken. >> right. exactly. that's the more destructive than

taking out -- i don't care who it is, as long as they're not superman, how can you make those evaluations. dechristopher had a comment about what is in our chicken. mark, what's your feeling about this? >> except for the arsenic, it sonnets like my diet. caffeine, benadryl. >> actually, i feel -- i'm not a vegetarian. my wife is a vegetarian. i feel like i should -- i definitely feel like there is essentially a rock solid, immoral case to not eat industrial produced animals and killed. i think that's pretty -- particularly if you can afford it, which, in my case, i can. and do. so i have a loyalty of guilt around this. and what that gilt transfers to is i just don't like to think at all about this. i resisted.

we have to give them caffeine. the longer they're away qh the more quickly they grew. they're all stressed out from that. so also we're giving them downers, prozac and antidepressants. it sounds like some mad scientist experiment. >> i am a vegetarian. one that is based on stomach turning facts. i grew up in iowa, which i feel, like, has a large bearing on why i don't have any illusions about saying if i'm going to eat some meat, it's only going to be grass-fed, farm raised or you know, like my friend, if they killed a cow out back i would eat it. in practice, i feel that's how most meat eaters, they don't really get there.

so, yeah, looking at pink slime is all well and good. but to really look at the system, that's what's disgusting. >> this is why this gets us back. >> that's why i opt out. >> it's true. americans, i think there has been an increase in vegetari vegetarianism. but just to give a sense of how the system works, this is part of theroblem and the entire system we built up around it. here's chuck tweeting about beef. i love chuck grasssley's tweets. donations to the campaign in 2012, $20,000. >> he deserves more than that. >> i know. >> he's getting ripped off. >> we have governor brandstad, the one that there was a smear

campaign against beef products inc. he expected 15$152,000. so part of the problem, right, is the enormity of the system is so large and it does seem like the incumbents have bought the system a little bit. >> i think you have better people than i to talk about political bribery and rigging elections. let's just look at the chicken stuff. this is really deregulation via budget cutting. any time you talk about speeding people off the line, you're going to have more accidents. you're going to have worse things going on. and president obama doesn't want to talk about deregulation. but president obama doesn't seem to mind talking about taking how many inspectors? 800 inspectors off the line, speeding off the line, letting

the companies 'em ploy yes look at the chickens for one quarter of a second. and there were reports of in that pilot project of the in the hospital tors being yelled out. meanwhile, 10 other ones have gone by. so you basically have the system that's rigged, as you say, to feed the chickens whatever it takes to get them to come up to weight. it used to take them 13 weeks to raise a chicken. it now takes six. six weeks from birth till death. they're eating -- by the way, they're eating junk. they're there. and you have the system and all the system wants is to be left alone. and this, again, goes back to the democracy issue. they're trying to pass law that is says you can't go in and look at these operations because no one wants to see it because you'll be grossed out.

and you'll say i'm not going to eat this stuff anymore because this is really the most disgusting thing imaginable. and we are headed towards a point where, i mean, this is a little science fictiony and a little bit of a joke. but we're headed towards a point where in order to avoid cruelty, we're going to be raising brain dead chickens, really brain dead chickens or maybe chickens with no cortex and breasts only because people don't eat the legs anyway. huge breasts, maybe no head and just a mouth. >> if you just tuned in, we're talking about chickens. >> i wanted to talk about how food has become a cultural issue right after this. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about the personal attention

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on this saturday morning. a nice counter point to the discussion of our industrial meat process, which is not there in anyway. josh, you had a point you wanted to raise? >> yeah, i think that we shouldn't be necessarily so negative on all of these things. in and of itself, it's a good thing. chicken is cheaper. for most of human history, meat was a luxury product. so now these things have made meat more affordable and it can be something on a regular basis. maybe we've gone too far, but you want to be somewhere in the middle there. it's good that chicken and beef are affordable to the masses. so, obviously, some of the things we've done to get here are a problem. but some of them aren't. i think that a lot of the public goes there, does this sound gross and if it sounds gross, then that's a problem. the antibiotic stuff is a real public health problem that's leading to antibiotic resistance in humans and whatnot.

but if we're feeding chickens caffeine, i don't know why i should care about that as a problem. >> well, i would have agreed with you a few years ago. but -- and i know your position is much more nuanced than it's not oh, this is a great thing. i get that. but there is this -- there is an argument that there's no morality without compassion. and if you talk about taking chickens and treating them as they're widgets, there's something wrong with that. morally wrong. so just pumping up these living creatures so that we can ink them. i agree, food should be affordable. and i agree, meat shouldn't be a luxury, but neither should it be three times a day, hardly costs anything, you don't have to think twice about it. i think if you want to eat meat, the meat should be good and you should eat it now and then.

>> i do think -- what i was trying to distinguish, i think sausage is gross, right? >> we have to distinguish. and i think, to me, moral revulsion is a living creature being fed a drug to keep it awake so it can eat more and then being given an antian psity or depressant which twinges some part of me that feels compassion for a being which i need to be an mid sistered a drug that makes me feel not anxious. that little glint that there's something wrong with that, i don't think it's healthy to override that. >> you'd be unhappy if someone killed you and ate you. >> also true.

>> but we could say we can't raise them in such horrible conditions. if we want to eat meat, we have to do it in a way that there is some relative value here. >> josh makes a good point. we all look like jeffrey dahmer. >> not all of us. >> well, all of us -- >> do you want to talk about dairy? it's just as bad. >> but i just -- the thing that was mentioned that we haven't come back to, which i haven't heard about until now, if we're going to start engineering them to little feet and no brain. here comes the chicken mcnuggets. i think the further you get away from the original way that humans were on the earth, i think each step does need to be evaluated. i think that there's the

industrial society combined with the information society means we're going faster and faster in any direction with less reflection. >> and i think one of the things that i think is good, in terms of function, you talk about competitive market. i think that's part of the baseline here. knowing what's in the food. knowing the process. even if people make erroneous judgment from that, i think knowledge is important. thank you. we're going to have you back. >> finish that sentence. >> so what do we know we didn't know last week? my answers are after this. in just minutes. now it's quicker and easier for you to start your business... protect your family... and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com, we put the law on your side.

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and now we know that an actual former man agrees with them. mark almorisey who served four years in a federal pen tench rio said i wish legislators would consult with me before they write something like this. i know what your intent was, but we can get around it so easily, it cracks me up. we know that for small time investors and consumers, it's far likely to end in tears. we now know the degree of which to exxon mobile has become "a finance arm for the republican party." he notes that in recent election cycles, more political action committee spending to republicans than any other of the largest corporations. we know that while exxon is the largest company, it's just one of several that are among the most profitable and powerful in

the history of human civilization. and we know that avoiding catastrophic clio mat change will mean reducing both its power a power and profits. we know that mitt romney has recanted his previous support for sensible pollty. we now know that in 2003, romney wrote expressing support for the idea of a regional cap and trade for the northeast saying that now is the time to take action for a climate protection. we now know that is nine years ago and now romney says things like this. >> my view is that we don't know what's causing climate change and spending trillions of dollars is not the right course for us. >> see the way he had to gulp because he was lying? we now have the new bit of evidence.

the fifth circuit court of appeals. responding to the supreme court's consideration of the challenge to the affordable care act, he grilled the government lawyer over whether the president agreed in the ultimate ash tor of constitutionality. he then assigned the lawyer to write a three-page, single-spaced memo on the position of the matterment we know that the attorney preachedly completed his hoechlwork assignment writing the judicial review does not concern any argument made in the government's brief or at oral argument in the case. we'll be discussing obama and the courts tomorrow. and, finally, we now know that newt gingrich's campaign is on his very last legs. after a dismal showing on tuesday night, gingrich netted not a single delegate that night and he's laid off much of his staff. we also know the enterprise named at news 2012 is not the

obliue only one waiting to go out of existence. filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy this week and will liquidate its assets. it owes between 1 and $10 million to creditors. we don't know if tiffanys is among them. [ donovan ] i hit a wall. and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going.

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♪ in a second i will ask the guests what they did known when the week began, but right now it is a time for a preview of melissa harris-perry. what is coming up? >> well, the race is truly on for 2012, and we are going to talk about what it was supposed to be about all along, the economy. and no matter what the jobs numbers are, it is still very much how you frame those numbers. so we will talk about political framing. i am also going to talk about my anxiety about the supreme court and nudity. and then i'm going to ask --

>> wow. >> you never know. and then i'm also going to ask my tulane students to take a break, because i want to ask whether or not college is even worth it anymore, and then, yes, the excitement of the screaming and the dancing that you heard on the 8th floor this morning, we have kerry washington an actual movie star. >> and if you don't mind my saying, you look like a movie st star. very glamorous, and you have done a great job. thank you, melissa. msnbc political analyst joe walsh is back at the table, and i want to find out what my guests didn't know when the week began. ben jones? >> i didn't know that alec could be defeated who is the debt star and the secretive organization and responsible for the kill at will and stand your ground laws and why the trayvon martin situation has gotten to terrible, and every bad law you have heard of alec is responsible for it.

i said that the black morale witness had fallen silent, but no, color of change exposed them. the sponsors of pepsi and coke and kraft are running from the corporation corporations, and i didn't know that. >> and walmart is next. what are you knowing? >> now that i know that there are electoral consequences of the war on women. the swing state poll this week was interesting in that women who were a gettable subset for the republican party, white women, and they are swinging 20 percentage points for obama. it used to be the single lay disheld it down as the core, hey. the core for the or the democratic party, and now it is even expanding to all ladies. >> yeah, single women are the most reliable, and the black single women are the most reliable democratic graphic, but single women are in general.

you have to do something for the base. first rule of politics. what do you know? >> well, sarah palin was hosting on "today" this week, and so what we know is that she and keith olbermann are both unemployed and looking for a job in broadcasting, so the obvious thing to happen here is that they should be a sportscenter sports co-anchor. >> oh, that is harsh. political analyst joan walsh. >> i heard that scott walker is work working for obama, because just as the republicans are saying that the war on women is ginned up, he signs a bill equaling lessening pay for women. >> the timing of the point of the week is amazing. he signed something revoking the equal pay protections. my thank you to all of the guests. rebuild the dream author van

jones. check out the book. thanks for getting up. thank you for joining us today for "up." coming up next is melissa harris-perry. joining us tomorrow sunday morning at 8:00 when i have neither barack obama or mitt romney on the program, but i will share my thoughts on the launch of the races against each other this week. you can get info on the guests on facebook at up with chris. thanks for getting upt "up." who is the your business entrepreneur of the week? like many small business owners carlos constantino of the constantino florists is struggling with the cost of gas. he has figured out a way to streamline the deliveries and bought a fuel efficient van all

while streamlining business with customers. for more watch "your business" saturday mornings. ♪ you are my sunshine, my only sunshine ♪

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[ humming ] two of the most important are energy security and economic growth. north america actually has one of the largest oil reserves in the world. a large part of that is oil sands. this resource has the ability to create hundreds of thousands of jobs. at our kearl project in canada, we'll be able to produce these oil sands with the same emissions as many other oils and that's a huge breakthrough. that's good for our country's energy security and our economy. this morning, my confession. i love teaching at a university, but even i have to wonder, is the cost of higher education worth it? i'm talking about the scandal that turned all eyes on washington this week. kerry washington that is. plus the supreme court's unexpected interest in nudity