view. what i'm saying is we have the tools now and you're going to meet people in today's tv show, when it eventually begins, that will explain what some of these tools are. >> i can't wait. take it away. >> okay. here we go. a delightful monday afternoon to you. i'm dylan ratigan. sort of a theme show for you today. you got a hint of the conversation with martin, and that's our big story, getting things done better by improving the culture of how we relate and our awareness of what is actually possible when it comes to problem solving. from worldwide nation state systems that could use some updating to washington, d.c. politics, to health care and using modern tools to create better health at a lower cost. even a new way to fly. it is the 21st century, by the way.

it's 2012, people. we begin with the economy and how we can do it better on our jobs tour. we show you how the current approach really no longer works. this, of course, tied to things like two sets of rules for trade, two sets of rules or 50,000 sets of rules, as it may be, for our tax code. two sets of rules when it comes to our banking policy. yet, with all of our problems, and there are plenty, remember the bigger the problem, the bigger the uncertainty, the bigger the opportunity on the other side of that wall. we as a group are primed for an innovative period of solution seeking if we simply take advantage of the tools around us. wake up, realize we don't know but we can ask so many questions and get so many answers that we're simply never available for, not to mention the lessons we can learn from those around us who may have already solved the problem we may not have already figured out. that the focus.

ruchir sharma called "breakout nations" is out. it's a pleasure to see you. congrats on the book. >> thank you. >> what do you see as the variables that will determine whether we go towards -- more of a renaissance environment. new solutions, new ideas, new ways to solve problems and what will keep us from them? >> i think it's already happening. i think the narrative has been to change, that in the aftermath of the financial crisis in 2008-2009, there was a fear westewe were going down the road of japan. we seem to be coming out of this. to know what is the problem, you have to accept what is the core issue. >> how do you define that? >> exactly. the fact of the matter is that america suffered a boom bust following a financial boon in

2000. after that, it always takes a very long time for the wounds to heal. but the path that america is following is pretty good in that wounds are healing, the private sector is leveraging, and we are seeing some forces in the economy beginning to march. we're going to see some major changes taking place. >> the efficiency of our utilization is improving in fossil fuel. is that what you're saying? >> we're using technology to make new discoveries in terms of an energy boon going out there. this is something we should be really concerned about, and yet we've had a major change take place as far as energy is concerned in terms of what's going on with gas, and now we're seeing, even as far as oil is concerned, from oklahoma to kansas, we're beginning to see there is a sort of mini oil boom taking place in the u.s.

>> so here's the 8 trillion billion million dollar question. i'm going to have people later in the show who i think are really modelling modern problem solving, which they use the ability to use data, hot spotting, and we'll talk about it later, they found 70% of the people in the union's network were spending 80% of their money. and they thought, we should help them spend less money. pretty rational. you're seeing other groups doing this with health care. you could do some things, you could pick a different category. the resistance, speaking to health care, though, is, there is no economic incentive by anybody who is lobbying nbc to reduce health care spending. >> right. >> so i'm interested, not that

you could solve for this riddle, but things that are fabulous from a community standpoint but are meaningfully disruptive to a tiny percentage of industries who are depending on however it used to be, and they do a lot to reduce the rate of change. >> that's a measure of concern, but what i'm going to focus on here is the fact that things are improving at the margin. what matters is what's happening at the margin. america has never been without problems. there's never been a time where there was no issue. people forget that in the 1980s, we were obsessed with the fact that japan was about to take over this economy. >> and the russians were going to nuke us. >> exactly. in the '80s and '90s, there was obsession. in the margin, things are improving for america after a lost decade.

some of the factors are beginning to bear fruit for america. like two of these factors, one, that wages have really been low out here and that's been a major problem for people, and yet they're bringing back some jobs in this economy because wages and places such as china are improving manufacturing. according to our work, a dollar today is the cheapest it's ever been in its history. so these are very important factors that are helping bring jobs back at the margin, at a slow pace, to the u.s. technology is helping us solve a lot of problems, and the fact is, as the u.s. remains a leader in technology, in that they spend 40%. asia, taiwan, china remains a

factory for u.s. product, but the innovation on the front end, where the value is really added, continues to be in the u.s. >> the single biggest disconnect in the u.s. economy, as i see it, is the disconnect between many of the variables you just articulated and the rate of hiring of human beings in america to do work. >> yeah. >> i don't view that uniquely as one thing, this massive technological change. it's disruptive to labor markets, whether there was a financial crisis or not. whether anything happened. >> yeah. >> then you also have, by my point of view, any s-- which sdents correlate to anything in a capitalist point of view. do you believe that there is enough momentum to reconnect the labor markets from the problem solving and prosperity that's

available in the intellectual property world than the investment world? >> i believe the employment problem we have here is less structured than people believe. i think that's because the u.s. economy has suffered a cycle. after that, it takes about eight or nine years for the economy to heal, and it takes a long time for the job to shift from the old industry to the new industry. that's what's going on here. that's the history of economic development. a lot of work has been done by the ims, the bis askand acedemi. the u.s. has gone through this phase for years. >> the best comparison, obviously, is a transition of agriculture. it's an industry between '87. the people of the agricultural generation had to die over 40 years. now the transition from industry to digital, like a weekend.

>> uh-huh. >> so it's that much more intense tofor the human beings. >> yeah. i'm not sure it's that much more intense because it always seems to work out. >> fair enough. >> i agree that this is not an all sort of blue sky scenario. what i'm trying to say here, and that's mentioned in the book as well, when i travel the world, and that's what i've done, and i lie back in the u.s. and wait to see that things in the margin here will get better. it will still take a long time for the healing process to complete, and that's a lesson from other countries. the fact is the healing process is on, and the presence from healing -- >> i'm going to leave you right there. congratulations on completing the book. "breakout nations" is the title, there's the cover.

next economic miracles. the renaissance is behind us. reforming the policy. we'll get the numbers on korea, not to mention syria. and we have to get a handle on how to handle afghanistan better. health care being used by one local midwestern union. could it bring us all better care at a fraction of the cost? >> one airline that will make it better flying: no kids allowed. ♪ if you can use some exotic booze, there is a bar in pompeii ♪ on track, at&t provided a mobile solution that lets everyone from field workers to accounting, initiate, bill, and track work in real time.

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u.s. foreign policy being tested this week on multiple fronts. today the state department is warning north korea don't do it. new satellite images appear to show underground tunnelling to be for a nuclear test. that will scare you. and north korea openly preparing to laumpnch a long-range rocket which officials believe is a cover to test missile rockets. tensions running high in iran. critical talks this week with turkey. key parties there haven't even been at the negotiating table going back to january 2011. meanwhile, in syria, a u.n.-backed cease fire is more or less in tatters as the assad regime has demanded written

guarantees that rebels will lay down their weapons. this as government forces continue to launch fresh attacks. video for you there. even firing across the border into a refugee camp. in turkey today, this cyberconnective world gives us incredibly enhanced pieces of information from around the world on a level that's never existed before. the question for us as individuals and us as a nation, politically, is how are we supposed to react to digest all of the various horrors of the world, those that are directed at us, potentially, and those that may have nothing to do with us. joining us, tim carney from the washington examiner, and friend, buddy and pal, mike williams. it is easy to look at the news wires or the digital feed or whatever it is and it conjures

in anybody lots of emotion. fear, anxiety, righteousness, we have to do something. how do you, mike, even begin to reconcile between the emotional have vissisitud erk vissisitudes that we all experience? >> the challenge in foreign policy is to put your emotions aside and your gut reaction is focus on the longer term trend. when we look at proliferation, let's look at iran. if they only voluntarily give up weapons, you can never really stop them from doing it. so do you hype up the rhetoric or do you try the back channels? so by rationing up the rhetoric, you just create a security dilemma, right? the iranians are worried about an invasion. it's really about taking a step

back from what you desperately want to do, which is disarm them and it won't work. >> at the same time, the united states stands behind a lot of other folks in the middle east, like israel, egypt. others who look at him and say, listen, it's one thing if the united states wants to take it easy. they're not the ones that will get bombed if this happens. >> this is the problem, is that we don't know -- we're in such a position in the u.s. where global cop is sort of the joking way we talked about, that our job isn't just to look after our own interests, a lot of people argue, but to sort of bring about world peace. >> sort of justice narrative, how can we let these people get killed? >> aside from the justice narrative, there is the israel question when we talk about iran. i've had some of my more pro-israel friends, oh, are you saying iran getting a nuclear weapon is in any way wrong, you're saying israel shouldn't

exist. there is an expectation that will protect us. >> it's not fair in america, and america is often in a no-win situation. the other problem is there is a lot of information out there, but we're still dealing with smoke and mirrors with every player. we don't have all the information, we don't have access to the documents. they don't know, weapons of mass destruction. it's incredibly tricky on every level. so i don't know if we can have all the answers. it's a catch-22. >> i, however, believe there is a very strong case for a clear solution in afghanistan. over the weekend, the u.s. did sign an agreement with the afghan military to cancel control of night raids being carried out by u.s. troops for a very long time, a tactic that's been deeply unpopular with afghan locals.

that pact has been hailed. there is a potential withdrawal in 2014. i always come back to the summer of 2012 where you know the casualties have already accelerated and will explode over the next six months. what is the reason to stay an extra summer? >> i've been saying we should get out, i've been saying it on this show, for over a year. the problem accide, i think, is those who do see the u.s. military as having a humanitarian role. i think we can pull out and if al-qaeda does have a short on there. tolerate the taliban to kill, mistreat. >> this is happening around the world every day. >> the liberal conscience of

america want to help with schools. we can effectively disrupt a great strategy, keep the taliban or whatever off base. it may serve our interests, but it's not what the liberal context wants. >> you can't get 93 trees down at once, you can't have an immediate withdrawal. at the end of the day, the british couldn't find his speech with afghanistan. america, nobody blames you that you can't. it is time to leave. . there's at least a part of this country that thinks, if we have the ability to -- >> i wrote a book called "the good war, naval.

we've had a real tension between what the military wanted in terms of the nation building and making it a win and the obama add pings. i just wrote a piece for the guardian a couple weeks ago that looked at this. they pushed for a surgery aens operation because they wanted a win-win. and biden was the driver of the vice president, and twelve. it's been a tight, tight debate. >> so hell with the cast of america as our awareness of atrocity explodes -- thank you, youtube, thank you, facebook, thank you, internet, et cetera -- thanks to our potency of it increases.

>> 600,000 people have got post-traumatic stress disorder, problems with brain damage. americans, 600,000 americans in trouble. someone is not looking out for you. 1.4 trillion in debt against afghanistan? i worry about america here. >> there is no reason to worry. this is all my optics. i shouldn't say these things. and very little. >> one of the divides between theie let's a-- the elites, and they will always see us as having a bigger national role while a lot of the country will see more what's in the u.s. interests. >> to her point. >> yeah, americans.

american troops t 600,000 men and women. >> it goes on and on. >> they're a good indicator because they're not going to let them sit around and do nothing when there is a real atrocity. that stomz from a common massac massacre. >> that one wasn't a liberal conscien conscience. that was french oil -- that was western european oil. >> the quiet evolution. a city of lawmakers says mindfulness can turn our country around and maybe even get us a better congress. with a 12% approval rating, a little meditation, could get us

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keep calm and relax. easier said than done. that is the message of our specialist. he says mindfulness increased personal awareness. an ancient buddhist practice is actually key to restoring the american spirit. and he says it's about time congress slow down, take some deep breaths and begin solving our country's problems with a little more humily and a little more mindfulness. he knows a thing or two about it. he's now in his fifth term as u.s. congressman. our specialist, representative tim ryan, from ohio, author of "a mindful nation" how a simple practice can help us reduce

stress, improve performance and recapture the american spirit. you didn't actually write this book as a therapy book for your colleagues in congress, although maybe applicable. you wrote this book as a broader look at american culture. what exactly is the goal in publishing something like this? >> well, i wrote "a mindful nation" so we can all individually think about how to slow down. i think we try to solve our problems globally but many times those problems are just a reflection of a collection of individuals. and the practice of mindfulness can help you slow down, pay attention, reduce your stress which can have implications of health care. it's a personal value, a personal technique that every person can use. >> i've been talking to my staff and some of the panelists coming through the show, that it's not

whether you're left or right, it's whether you're awake or asleep. if you're awake, you don't know you're looking for answers, and if you're asleep, you're looking for a fight. i came from cnbc myself to msnbc looking for a fight. i was outraged by the banks, and i was here to fight. >> uh-huh. >> i'm now, and have been for some time, of a totally different frame, but it was only through my own personal misery that i realized that. and i do wonder, what is the catalyst for those with power, especially, who have a lot to lose by giving up the fight, by giving up the fearmongering. what is the catalyst for more people to be awake? >> i think a lot of members of congress and a lot of people in leadership positions wouldn't exactly call this winning, whether you're in charge or not in charge, whether you're in the majority or the minority. is this really winning for the united states of america? people are getting sicker, kids

are not getting the kind of education that they need, they're send 3 to 4,000 text messages a month, the average teenager is, but this overwhelming influx of information is stressing us out. and if centers for disease control were identifying stress, we would have people with yellow suits all around us at every major institution in the united states of america. >> it would be a big bubble. >> it would be a big bubble. i mean, that's where we would be at. and so this is not winning. what i want the book to do, and the mindful nations are about the people in there, the scientists, the social workers, the health care professionals that are teaching their students to teach mindfulness, to slow down. and now we could, because of the science, identify how the brain works, and we know when you calm the brain down, you're actually unleashing your potential of your ability to learn. we know we can get our blood pressure taken, but that's still

a downstream preventative measure, because what's causing your blood pressure to go up? in many cases, your stress. so let's teach people how to manage your stress. 20 years ago we would have said, work out. you need to get your exercise. with all the information we learn today, it's about mental stress. >> and that's about an act of calm. >> there is an intention there, but it's a natural ability that we all have to be aware. that's a natural state, but when we get all of this information, it gets distorted. >> you must have spoken to your friends and coworkers about all this. i'd be fascinated to know what they said to you. >> the book has only been out for a week. i do have a few friends. you know, it's so amazing because so many are interested and they'll say, oh, i've heard about that. or, oh, my god, i could use it.

i'm stressed out of my mind. or, oh, my god, my kids need this. so it's right on the edge of being a revolution within our country, because we're all right on the edge of being totally stressed out and they're looking for something. >> do you attribute your success to mindfulness? >> i stumbled upon it a few years ago, and it's really stressful-lookinging to me. we have huge elections in ohio every two years. i was in the house trying to get reelected when i was 36, and i said, i'm going to be burned out by the time i turn 40. my grandparents and mother quoted the rosary all the time, so i had some experience with some of this stuff and i just said, i don't want to be burned out at 40. >> when i do calm down, when i

focus in the morning, i'm focused which it says, what did i just do. now it's like turn the phone off or leave, get away from it. i shouldn't say it, but can you combine entering into tit. it's a way to stay healthy and physical when you don't have the time. >> i've bench pressed in my mind 20 times. >> if mindfulness is about being awake in the present moment, regardless of what you're doing, john was a great basketball coach at ucla. first practice, didn't teach them offense, didn't teach them defense. taught them how to put on their

socks. put your socks on, make sure there's no wrinkles, put your knee pads on, make sure there's no wrinkles, then put your shoe on. if you don't put your socks on properly, you'll get a blister. if you're not -- there's people to material. it's like the basketball players on the ncaa. when you're performing at that peak lel, you're totally in right. >> yeah. >> so how does this blend with that? >> there was talk about the buddhist roots or whatever. >> it's about nothing, but it's about grounding your mind in the present moment. the united states marine corps is doing it, google is doing it,

target is doing it, all these corporations are doing it. >> you would say, jeff, within your practice in catholic, that's just one tool that can help you achieve this. it doesn't matter with the mechanism, those are tools. >> when you're at the mass, you'll be at the mass. when you're at the ritual, you'll be at the ritual. when you're praying a rosary, you'll be praying a rosary. when you talk to the station owner, that he was. >> "a mindful nation" is the book. eve . >> this is a way for me -- how can anybody be concerned that i could ask them a question they wouldn't want to answer when i've got this pen?

wonderful conversation. congratulations on the book. >> you'll like it. >> then i can endorse it after mindfully reading it. >> absolutely. and reflecting. and then mindfully telling others to buy it. >> i'm a democrat. it's a pleasure, imogen. michael, always a pleasure. the man on many people's minds today, bubba wearing the green jacket and a whole lot more fans.

durn'it, this thing's runnin' slow. bet you think you're pretty quick? yeah, i guess it is pretty quick. jesse?!? jesse? jesse?! much obliged.

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victim to his erratic drives and inconsistent iron play. and bubba was better than phil mickelson who threateened to mae a late charge but in the end couldn't overcome his triple bogey in the 15th hole. in fact, bubba watson was hitting better than everybody on sunday except for, it seemed, his playing partner. louis oosthuizen drops in a double eagle from 260 yards out. stunning! >> come to papa! yes! >> a shot 17,000 more times unlikely than a hole-in-one. but as the sun set, the south african began to fade, and bubba was coming on strong. after forcing a sudden death

playoff on the 17th hole of this tournament, bubba watson found himself in the woods. and after hitting the shot that will be replayed thousands of times, sort of up and around the corner, bubba tapped in, etching his name in history and earning himself the 2012 green jacket. >> bubba watson is wearing the green jacket! >>. next, improving our broken health care system. the innovative 20th century approach that one local union is using to reduce its costs and give its members better health care. [ woman speaking indistinctly over radio ] home protector plus from liberty mutual insurance...

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well, if you've been watching this show, you know that i'm a major advocate of hot spotting, using our modern capabilities to identify and help solve our problems. one of the most amazing places we're seeing in tiny pockets around our country is in the quest for a healthier health care system. we talked about dr. brenner in new jersey. we'll now meet the local 49ers. they are a union representing thousands of engineers in minnesota and the dakotas. the group discovered, much as our friends in camden did, that

in their case, 17% of the union membership was accounting for 83% of the annual health care spending. remember, in america in general, 5% of the people account for 50% of the spending. so in response to this hot spot, union leadership developed a two-pronged approach to cut costs while simultaneously increasing the quality of care. you see, really high costs for people can be an indication that care is backed. what they will make clear once again is this. if we are able to identify the sickest people among us in a given health care network, public or private, and if we focus our efforts in resources on helping those people become healthier, not only will our health care costs go down as a nation, but our health will go up. it's that simple.

joining us now from minneapolis is the -- from the international union of operating engineers local 49, martha lefaub with one of her health care coordinators, and jim hanson, one of the local 49ers health and welfare trustees. martha, i'll start with you. how did the idea of surveying the health care that worked for the 17%, 83%, that kind of data, where did that idea even come from? >> well, dylan, thanks for having us on the show today. back in 2003 is where it really began. we were unsustainable at the time. we knew we weren't going to go down, we were going to keep going up. that's when our trustees said, we can't stick to the norm. we had a chairman on our board that said, let's do something different. they said, let's look at our data and figure out what's going on. that's when we realized 17% of our participants were spending 83% of our dollars.

we knew we needed to use something then. what we're spending the most money on is health care. so we decided, let's focus on the group. let's get them the right care, get them identified and start spending money on them and hopefully focus on quality care. >> jim, when we talked to dr. brenne brenner, and i wrote a lot about this in the health care chapter of my book, but you identify people and help them become healthier. people will say, you can't tell me what to do and how to live and this sort of thing. how has the cultural response inside the union membership been as you and others have reached out to people who are costing a lot of money by their spending but also are probably not very

happy or healthy with their personal health. >> we've had a lot of people from outside say to us, you're going to be in big trouble here. your members aren't going to like this stuff. we have had absolutely zero complaints. as i talked to your producer earlier today, martha and i come to these meetings, we have grown men, balling, tears going down their face with an appreciation for what was done. a good thing for the union, and especially a good thing for our membership. >> was i wrong in thinking that this basic technique -- there's dr. brenner -- 1% this camden were 30% of the costs -- that this is unique. it doesn't matter whether you're a union member trying to manage

costs, corporate network trying to manage costs, state, corporate, it really doesn't matter. >> that's exactly it. we're a small group. we're basically the pilot study for growing larger accurate testing, correct diagnosis, appropriate method. >> that's really been our driving force. following that, those guidelines have really given us the power to take control of our health. >> dylan, i would suggest that what we've done is even more intense than what mr. brenner did because we not only the illest because -- >> elaborate on that. >> we have a patient advocacy service working for us, and if you have a heart attack as a

local member 49 number, you're given a phone call and they ask you, do you want help navigating through this system? most places, people just assume that one doctor is not enough. like i told nick today, basketball players, football players, the wealthy, they don't just take any hospitals. they have connections to know where the best care is. >> you're absolutely wonderful. i have to say it's inspiring for me not to talk about this in some sort of abstract sense, and i would be delighted, i think we all would, to see this scaled everywhere. not because it's great cost management for the health care networks but because now the incentive is to make human beings healthy. >> it doesn't matter the money

you're making, but the union money we more focused on quality, because as the old is aing goes, if you do it right the first time, you're money ahead. >> is there such a thing where folks can follow this. >> local. my contact. >> hopefully you'll get some nice incoming. corporate health care, union har co. martha lefaub and jim hanson. coming up, "hardball." chris is back talking about the buffer rule. first, misbehavior in flight. a plan to keep the friendly skies all.

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well, to wind up our show on doing things better, keli is here to tell us how to enjoy traveling for all of us. >> they have gone around to the travel agents telling them they would form a new initiative, child-free cabins. while countless business travelers like newt policy, many parents of young children cried foul, some calling it discrimination. for someone who doesn't have

children and only travels a few times a year, i was fine with the policy, until recently. someone traveling with his wife passed the child to his wife, hoping to give the people near him some relief. however, when the child was handed to his wife, he woke another child in the same row. i am championing the child-free cabin policy. some parents asked, what about misbehaving adults? why are we singling out unruly kids? i think that's a fair question, especially when a few weeks ago, a jetblue pilot had to be removed and he was very much an adult. while i have been traveling with disruptive kids, i've also been

traveling with disruptive adults. some moron has woken me up by chatting on his cell phone. this despite the fact there is a sign that reads, quiet car, no cell phones permitted. what is the solution? someone i spoke to off the record said keeping children out of some cabins is a start, but he also thought about penalty fees for disruptive travelers. what are the airlines tack on a flat fee for disruptive behavior? let's say $100 all passengers have to agree to should they miss beha misbehave on a flight. like the man who got so drunk. e if a passenger racks up more than one penalty, they can have the price of their tickets automatically doubled or perhaps

tripled in the future. perhaps if we hit people where it really hurts, in their pocket b pocketbooks, they would get the picture that not all civility is acceptable. there are parents who say, i would actually prefer to sit in an area with other parents and not be stressed about my kids disturbing other people. so i think this is a possibility. >> i think you should prepare this into some sort of official proposal, and next time richard branson or somebody is on the show, we'll just offer it to him. >> you should have told me before i shared it for free on air, then, right? >> anyway, nice to see you, keli. keli goff. "hardball with chris