haass, just ahead. we asked you why you were awake. john has your answers. towering large over there, johnny boy, what do you got? >> derek writes, up due to bilateral hernia surgery and can't sleep. >> yikes! wow! all right. i've got nothing to add to that. thanks, john. thanks to this hardworking crew behind me for all their help this week with me, your guest host. i'll see you tomorrow. "morning joe" starts right now. president obama once said he wants everybody in america to go to college. what a snob. kennedy, for the first time, articulated a vision saying no, faith is not allowed in the public square. to say that people of faith have no role in the public square? you bet that makes you throw up. i don't care what the unemployment rate's going to be. it doesn't matter to me. my campaign doesn't hinge on unemployment rates and growth

rates. mitt romney agreed with barack obama on every single thing that he did. because he put it in place in massachusetts. it's the blueprint for obamacare. don't believe me. ask obama. why would we put someone up who is uniquely -- pick any other republican in the country -- he is the worst republican in the country. to put up against barack obama. people say how did this happen? how were we able to come from nowhere? it's because it's smart enough to figure out that if i understood and felt at a very deep level what you were experiencing across america and tried to be a witness to that, to try to be in a sense an interpreter of that, that your voice could be heard and miracles could happen. and so it did. >> that was his greatest speech. >> good morning. it is wednesday, april 11th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have the executive editor of random house and pulitzer prize-winning

historian and "time" magazine contributor editor jon meacham. >> just keep going. >> my god. the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haass and msnbc contributor mike barnicle and mark halperin. >> thank you guys for being here. obviously, mika, big news. >> yeah. >> that rick santorum's bowed out of the race or at least suspended it. but mike barnicle, there was one clip there -- of course, i know people think we cut every clip, but i think the one clip that was missing from that was, i think, the best speech in the entire republican primary. >> the speech where rick santorum talked about his grandfather who worked in a steel mill and his strong hands. it was a powerful moment for santorum. probably, i think, a moment that catapulted him into prominence. >> and, of course, the frustration was, jon meacham,

that among a lot of republicans that didn't want myitt romney t win, that he didn't stay laser focused on that message and he just didn't channel the story about his grandfather and how his grandfather had won the american dream for his grandson and entire family. >> yeah. the conventional wisdom quickly became, as someone said, that he swung at every pitch. >> yeah. that's a good way to put it. >> whenever there was a chance to comment on a social issue that would get the assignment editors more interested, then the economic substance of the populist message, he would play along. >> he would. and, of course, mark halperin, this morning everybody is talking about what he did wrong. but he won iowa. he was sitting at 2% a week or two before that. he won iowa. he won georgia, alabama, mississippi, louisiana. >> 11 states and more counties than any other candidate.

>> yeah, kansas. he won up in minnesota, north dakota, out in colorado, tennessee. he won more counties than anybody, and he did it with no money and no organization. >> i hate to disagree with jon meacham, but i think sometimes senator santorum swung even before the ball was pitched. >> perhaps. >> look, you can argue it either way. he clearly defied expectations for him, and it's a great story for anyone who wants to run for president. you don't need that much money. you don't need that much name i.d. if you work hard and you have a message. that's great because we want an open process. on the other hand, i really do think had he continued the economic message, had he been more disciplined and stayed away from some of the issues that even within the republican nominating context were a distraction, i think he could have posed a much bigger challenge to mitt romney in michigan and elsewhere. and i think he'll certainly look back and see he was undisciplined. he'll need to be more disciplined and more focused if he's going to consolidate what he's achieved and be a factor

this year and beyond. >> you know, richard haass, there's a reason why it usually takes presidential candidates a couple times to get this right. you learn what your failings are. and i remember the first time we were out in iowa and a pack of reporters were following rick santorum. and he was just starting to pick up. and i asked how they were. they said oh, he's undisciplined. he goes on and he'll talk for two hours at an event. even then they were talking -- of course, he went on and won iowa, but even then, they were talking about the lack of discipline in messaging. the next time he runs, he will understand. i mean, did he run around saying contraception, contraception? no, he did not. but he didn't know when his organization didn't know how to shape the message better, that's a mistake he won't make twice. >> absolutely. the fact that governor romney is doing better this time than last time tells you something. history is replete with examples. also, their staffs get better. you learn how to do this. this is as much of a skill as it

is an art. you're not naturally a great candidate. you learn along the way. the other thing, you have to come back to the real issue of the day which is economics. just as an aside, i thought yesterday was an interesting day with the market swooning around the world. it was a reminder that the economic context is not fundamentally changed, and that is going to be the issue more than anything else. indeed, it was a pretty good day for romney. not just santorum dropping out, but the economic context. once again, europe is swooning. markets are doing very, very badly. foreign policy -- you know, the possibility of iran, north korea, all these issues coming together. it just brings home that the economic context is fragile, and that's going to be still the defining issue. >> it does. and you know, mika, first-time candidates always like to talk about how the press isn't fair and the process isn't fair. and, of course, no, it doesn't seem fair because you'll have the press seize on something you say and blow it up and hammer it. but rick santorum knows now,

again, these are the rules that you play in if you're running for president. why are you shocked? i mean, he was alive in 1988. he saw when michael dukakis put the helmet on and rode in that tank. he understands -- is that fair to michael dukakis? no, it wasn't fair, but sometimes images set in, and they're in cement, and that's the way the game is played every four years. and he'll be a better player because of that. >> it's a gutting, ruinous process often on families as well. >> that, too. >> it's very difficult. in the end, the delegate math was against rick santorum. and after his young daughter, bella, was recently hospitalized, santorum said the decision to leave the race is best for his family. # his announcement came two weeks ahead of the pennsylvania primary where tightening poll numbers suggested his home state was in jeopardy. >> ladies and gentlemen, we made a decision to get into this race

at our kitchen table and against all the odds. and we made a decision over the weekend that while this presidential race for us is over for me, and we will suspend our campaign effective today, we are not done fighting. we are going to continue to fight for those voices. we're going to continue to fight for the americans who stood up and gave us that air under our wings that allowed us to accomplish things that no political expert would have ever expected. >> if you go down the list of sort of the life, marriage, social conservative issues, they were pretty much -- we were all pretty much in line. yet i was considered the extremist. which i found very interesting. the reason i was considered the extremist is, number one, the people who evaluate these candidates and label extremism

understood that i actually believed what i said i believed in. right? >> no endorsement of mitt romney in that. no mention. >> no endorsement. no endorsement of mitt romney. you know, and he was actually labeled an extremist for a lot of other reasons. and it's something that he found also is there are youtube clips out there that stay out there. whether it's, you know, a small interview he gave in iowa back when nobody was watching or whether it was things he said back -- >> "the new york times" highlights on its editorial page five key quotes. >> right. >> vintage santorum. >> boy, i certainly do understand him saying that and being upset. but the rick santorum that learned from his mistakes, the one that said oh, gosh, i wish i hadn't said that about jfk and the sweater or oh, my wife got after me after i said that

stupid thing about college. i mean, that's the rick santorum that has to emerge from this. he has to joke about the mistakes he made and mainstream himself a little bit more. we've got to tell one other part of this story, though, mark halperin. and that is the fact that even when he was getting outspent 5-1 and 10-1 by mitt romney, sometimes even more than that, he was still beating romney. this is a guy that was such -- i mean, more with less than anybody else in modern american political history. and he so surprised the field that team romney, the death star, had prepared to kill every candidate from pawlenty through palin through trump through cain through perry through newt through everybody, they didn't even have opposition research

for rick santorum because there was no way the guy at 1% was ever going to hurt them. >> well, and they all felt he had the kind of vulnerabilities, they eventually exploited including some of his moderate aspects of his voting record as a senator from pennsylvania. if you just took the names off it and took the money away, santorum was a much better fit for the mood of the party today than mitt romney is. not just on social issues but on economics. but he was badly outspent. that sticks in his craw a little bit. i think a bit challenge for romney is to get to tampa that's supportive of romney, that takes the edge off all the negative things he said and felt about romney. i think any of us could write that speech today. the question is will rick santorum actually deliver it? he doesn't deliver prepared speeches. i think that's a real challenge. the romney campaign wants him front and center, needs him front and center, raising money, going to constituencies. big role in tampa.

if they can get him on board, i think the press will make a big deal about some of the past comments, but it will really be helpful. he is a better communicator in a lot of ways than romney, not just on his family bio but a lot of issues of today. >> that helped him win 11 states. voters weren't thinking about mitt romney at all, it would be helpful. >> well, it's a real question about their enthusiasm in the fall because, as you say, these are not people who are -- have been rushing to embrace romney. i think one of the things historically is very strong r runners-up, whether it's george bush in 19d 80 or john mccain in 2000 or bill bradley and howard dean in 2000, 2004, represent about where roughly a quarter of the country is, right? and i think santorum, what mark just said, represents that tea party strong cultural social

conservative element. and to some extent, he has the vices of his virtues. he's immensely popular with an element, part of the electorate, but that has a natural ceiling right now. and so he didn't go from base -- his base plus this time. >> see, the trick is to -- everybody knew that rick santorum was pro-life. everybody knew where he stood on traditional marriage. everybody knew these things, where he stood on social issues. the disciplined candidate would sort of nod and wink to the james dobsons and say, when i'm there, you're there. but we're just going to keep it low. and i'm going to talk about my granddad. and i'm going to talk about economic pop populism. mike, that's what he needed to do. we all knew where he stood on social issues. the disciplined candidate in that place never talks about social issues. you know i'm pro-life, but you know what?

right now let's talk about something that's affecting all americans, and that is the economy, and then he talks about economic populism. if he would have done that, he could have broke through that ceiling and expanded that base. and again, i'm sure he'll do that next time. >> i agree with you in terms of his positions on social issues and how he articulated them. i don't think anybody, any average person, recept sents or angry over someone's social views. rick santorum, for whatever reason, maybe because of where he was in the polls, maybe because of the lack of attention that was being paid to him, maybe because he was up against a huge money machine that was into attack mode on everyone who popped up, you know, below the fault line, running against romney. he brought to each day, in addition to his views and his strong beliefs, and they were his beliefs on social issues and every other issue, a level of

anger to his remarks. >> yeah. yep. >> was not helpful. was not helpful. when he spoke about his grandfather, there was no anger there. there was feeling. there was genuine feeling that people could clearly identify with. but when he would speak about his opponents and his views and issues and how they were covered by the mainstream media, there was a level of anger within him that i think caused a lot of people to say, ooh, ooh. >> but that's the faustian bargain here because if he had done the winking, would he have gotten the attention? >> right. >> would it have worked if he hadn't turned out that base? i mean, he was the most successful un-romney, the most popular role of the year. >> right, exactly. there was a long cast line. you know, i understand, and to a degree having that edge helped. but again, it was swinging at every pitch, as john said. you always look, on these election nights when somebody comes out of nowhere, remember

gary hart in 1988, you always look and see how they respond. pat buchanan in 1992. ride to the sound of gunfire! i'm, like, yeah! wait a second. that may not help the suburbs of philadelphia. but you see how they respond. and rick responded extraordinarily well in iowa. and i said, this guy has got it figured out. but then he lands in new hampshire the next day, and he picks a fight with college students over gay marriage. and i say, pick a fight, they were asking him -- and, again, he did what a lot of us would do. he played law professor with them. and he started going back and forth which, again -- >> it's a great debate. >> it's a great debate. >> there's a time and place. >> i'm sure as a senator he did that a lot of times. and afterwards, people would come up to him and say, that was a good discussion. but no, not when you're on a big stage, it's not a good discussion. you don't play carl crawford and swing at every pitch that's in

the dirt. you let a few bounce off the pitch and wait for the next pitch. >> one more story before we go to break. >> holy cow. >> just stop it. >> geez louise. >> that's not the story. >> no, that's not the story, thank god. >> it's the enveloping metaphor. >> president obama is rolling out a populist bush -- >> you know, theo really left us with a stink bomb. he said, let me leave with a stink bomb of a team. i'm going to the windy city. >> don't. >> okay, mika, go ahead. what else you got? we'll take this up in sports. oh, my lord. >> the president is rolling out a populist bush to change the law so the wealthiest americans no longer pay a lower tax rate than most middle-class americans. in a speech to college students in florida yesterday, the president set a policy that levels the playing field will ultimately serve the entire country. >> the share of our national income going to the top 1% has climbed to levels we haven't

seen since the 1920s. the folks who are benefiting from this are paying taxes at one of the lowest rates in 50 years. that's wrong. that's not fair. and so we've got to choose which direction we want this country to go in. do we want to keep giving those tax breaks to folks like me who don't need them or give them to warren buffett. he definitely doesn't need them. or bill gates. he's already said, i don't need them. or do we want to keep investing in those things that keep our economy growing and keep us secure? that's the choice. >> back in new york, former president george w. bush made a rare post-presidential policy address and talked about his tax policy. take a look. >> i wish they weren't called the bush tax cuts. if they were called some other body's tax cuts, they're probably less likely to be raised.

but if you raise -- if you raise taxes, you're taking money out of the pockets of consumers. >> you know, he says he doesn't miss it. >> well, we miss him. >> we miss him. >> listen, let me tell you something. every other president goes off the stage and goes, you know, i don't miss it. they all miss it. they all miss it. they all have to fight every day. >> no, i don't think he misses it. >> that guy doesn't miss it. >> he doesn't miss it. >> no. that guy -- that guy -- >> he wasn't that into it when he was doing it. when you start there. >> not towards the end. you could tell into year six, he was ready to go home. anyway. you may have a good point there. >> some other bodies. >> the president, though, richard haass, the president's talking about the buffett rule, and we think warren buffett should pay more taxes than his secretary. of course, it simplifies things a great deal. and it's not going to help balance the budget.

it's just not. it's not going to help balance the budget. it's not going to spur the economy. in the long run, it's not going to make our tax code more fair. we're going to have to have a bigger overhaul, but it will help the president win a few votes, right? >> it's a populist political message. look, on the economic side, you've got to decide if you're going to deal differently with different kinds of income. right now capital gains taxes at a low rate, 15%. and earned income that his secretary makes is taxed at a rate more than twice that. we've got to decide whether we're going to continue to distinguish how we tax different types of income. salary income is going to be taxed much higher than investment income. and if we like that, we'll continue the current thing. if we don't like it, we're going to change. we've just got to decide. but in the meantime, just to a narrow thing on taxes, we're kidding ourselves. unless you start talking about spending, unless you start talking about entitlement spending, it's like willie sutton, why do you rob banks? that's where the money is. if you really want to get serious about the budget, you

can't have this narrow conversation on how you're going to tax the wealthy. you've got to talk, among other things, about how you're going to deal with entitlements. >> and here was one of the things yesterday -- i consider myself to be good friends with david axelrod and paul ryan. we had david axelrod and paul ryan coming in here, one talking about taxing rich people. it's not going to do anything on the budget. >> absolutely. >> and then we have paul ryan with a budget that goes disproportionately discretionary after domestic spending. >> it's too small. >> that's too small. that's not going to do anything in the long run. neither one of them really want to talk about right now. they want to talk about what they have to do with medicare. they allow medicare to grow at the same rate. >> right. >> medicaid, social security, defense spending, the obama team talks a little bit about cutting back defense spending but not in a significant way. not in a post -- i guess we're now in the post-post-war era.

not in a way that really fits our times. nobody's talking seriously about this. >> cutting defense spending maybe 8%, and still leaves us at a fairly high level. you're right. the debate about the economy still hasn't gotten serious. it's still at the political level, the slogan level, rather than at the policy level. >> there are a lot of ideologues, mika, that watch this show that get angry when we actually tell the truth about math. but for 95% of you that are viewing, all you need to do is understand this. the republicans are talking about cutting 12% of the budget that does disproportionately impact the poor. and we're not going to balance the budget on the backs of the poor. it's impossible to do it. and very few people think the poor are getting a free ride in this economy anyway. and then on the democratic side, they're demagoguing tax cuts for the rich which, again, if you want to talk about the bush tax cuts, that's one thing.

but this president extended the bush tax cuts two years because he thought it was good for the economy. that's what they were saying behind the scenes. the buffett rule, going after these small discretionary domestic spending, that's not going to help us in the long run. >> i think, though, what the president was saying is that it begins to slightly address the massive disparity. >> how many times, mika -- >> in this society. >> did we push the white house at the end of 2010 for political reasons on my part to end the bush tax cuts? >> yep. >> every single day. >> i don't disagree with that. >> you look what they did, they extended the bush tax cuts for two years. they tripled the number of troops in afghanistan. they've done nothing, made no tough choices on medicare, no tough choices on medicaid. yes, they took $500 billion out of medicare to start a new entitlement program called the affordable care act.

no tough choices. and, of course, that defines republican leadership for eight years under george w. bush. >> yeah. which also puts the republicans -- >> which is why we're racing toward a cliff right now. coming up, we'll continue this. republican senator pat toomey of pennsylvania joins us. also, democratic senator chris coons of delaware. we'll talk oil and energy prices with boone pickens. and later, green jacket winner bubba watson. >> yeah, baby, boone and bubba. it gets no better than that for a southern boy. >> we'll be here on set. "the political playbook" is next. keep it here on "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. members of the american postal worker's union handle more than 165 billion letters and packages a year. that's about 34 million pounds of mail every day.

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i mean, look at me. i'm a mess. my part is all over the place. minot dimple is off center. i might as well be in sweatpants. and it's all because of this. >> this presidential race for us is over for me, and we will suspend our campaign effective today. >> now, many of you are speculating that santorum dropped out now to avoid the embarrassment of losing to romney in pennsylvania, his home state. though given the number of houses mitt romney owns, pennsylvania is probably his home state, too. >> all right. 28 past the hour. welcome back. here with us now, senior political reporter of politico, jonathan martin. jonathan, welcome back to the show. >> hi, mika. >> your story this morning says presumptive gop nominee, mitt romney has some work to do to move past just being the candidate that might beat obama. >> yeah, he's got a few things

to do here at once. he's got to both turn his focus to obama, but at the same time, also, you know, button up some key individuals in his own party. obviously, rick santorum is the most important one he's got to get behind him, but it's bigger than that. he's got to get evangelicals more broadly by his side, newt gingrich staying in are going to have some concerns going into the tampa convention. and then also, he's going to make sure the party establishment folks who are either lukewarm in supporting him or on the sidelines altogether are not just issuing, you know, paper statements saying yes, i'm on board. but actually out there with him shoulder to shoulder, helping him out, raising money, being an advocate for his cause. and he's got to do all this while really addressing the massive gender gap he faces and talking to a broader general election audience. it's going to be a tricky balance here for the next few weeks. >> how hard a balance to get

rick santorum supporters over to the mitt romney camp? >> not too hard. >> not too hard? >> no. well, i just think -- >> it's enthusiasm. >> yeah. he's right, though, the enthusiasm's going to be down. and that's the problem every time the republican party nominates a mitt romney or a john mccain or a bob dole or a gerald ford. those are not usually the republican candidates, jonathan, that win. it's usually conservatives that stir up the base. >> and tony perkins yesterday was making that same point. he's one of the big cultural conservative leaders. he said we nominate a moderate, it's always harder getting our folks fired up. and yes, they're going to have negative energy towards president obama, but are they going to have positive energy toward romney? that's still very much an open question, and i think it's going to be key for romney in the next few weeks. it privately and publicly to make sure that he's got those folks lined up working for him. it was not until john mccain

picked sarah palin that he had those folks proactively working for him in '08. >> thank you, jonathan. >> thanks, guys. good to see you. >> and you know, negative energy can only take you so far. there were a lot of people, democrats, younger democrats, that say this is the angriest republicans have ever been at anybody in the history of the world. they don't remember bill clinton. they don't remember the negative. i've never seen negative energy like i saw against bill clinton in 1992 and 1996, negative energy may get some republicans out to vote, but it doesn't get you knocking on doors. you've got to like your guy. and right now i don't know if that's the case. but let's bring in right now from bethlehem, pennsylvania, republican senator from pennsylvania senator pat toomey, endorsed mitt romney yesterday. you know, it's interesting. it's interesting that you waited until yesterday to endorse mitt romney considering that rick santorum had endorsed arlen specter back in your first race,

upset a lot of conservatives like myself when it happened. but talk first of all about your fellow pennsylvania senator, rick santorum. any lingering bitterness? >> well, let me first say good morning, guys. thanks for having me again. you know, i've never had any animosity towards rick. obviously, i disagreed with his decision to support arlen specter, but that was a long time ago. it was back in 2004. in 2006 when rick was up for re-election, i campaigned alongside him. i thought then and i think now, he would have been a better senator than the democratic candidate that ran against him. so no. there was never any animosity. this wasn't about rick santorum for me. it was about determining when was the right time to join forces with a guy who i think can be a very good president. >> okay. so pat, help us out. help us conservatives out, us small-government conservatives out. that we're disappointed. with people like rick santorum

that voted for medicare part "d" when you voted against it. people like mitt romney that supported the individual mandate, not just in his state but wrote op-eds saying we should have it nationwide. how do you get small-government conservatives that felt betrayed under george w. bush to vote for another moderate republican? >> well, you know, i'd say one of the things to start with is look at what he actually did in massachusetts. i understand there's a lot of focus on the health care bill. but let's look at some of the other things. this is a governor with an overwhelmingly -- i mean a massively democratic legislature who cut spending repeatedly. he cut taxes. he proposed cutting taxes more. he pushed through a number of deregulations on things from auto insurance to union regulations and other things. so i think his record is actually pretty solid on that. and i said so when i was at the club for growth and we did a detailed white paper on his record. i think his message has been solidly conservative.

i think we're going to be pleased with him. and i'm going to be -- i'm enthusiastic. and i will one other thing if i could quickly, last night i was with governor romney in chester county, pennsylvania, a terrific suburb of philadelphia, a swing district, a swing area,en area where the republicans run the gamut from very conservative to very moderate. it was 500 people on their feet all evening. they were thrilled. they are very enthusiastic. and it included a lot of conservative supporters of mine. >> yeah. >> so i think the governor's going to be in good shape. >> you have called romney in the past a true conservative. and you just said he had a solidly conservative message. is that a stretch? how so? how is he a true conservative? >> because i think he is truly committed to limited government and smaller government. and as i said, when he was governor of massachusetts, despite a state where the entire culture is exactly the opposite, it's as liberal a place as there is in america, there's a guy who

it actually cutting spending, reducing the payroll of government, shrinking taxes and proposing to do more of those things. that's a pretty good record from a conservative point of view. >> mark halperin is in orlando and has a question. mark. >> senator, senator santorum was a little opaque about why he got out of the race. he mentioned some family considerations. he's also talked about campaign debt. what do you know about what motivated him to make the decision he did in advance of your state's primary? >> honestly, i don't know a thing about his personal motivations. i haven't discussed this with him. but i will say i've got to tell you, i'm very, very impressed with the campaign that he ran. it's really remarkable where he came from, what he accomplished. he ran on the principles that he believes strongly in and really did a great job. i think it was the right decision. i mean, from where i sit, it looks like the right decision for rick santorum. only he can know that. but i do think it's the right decision for the party and for the cause of winning this election.

so i just tip my hat to the way he handled himself throughout this whole process. >> all right. senator toomey, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. take care. >> thank you, pat. >> thanks for having me. look at this quote yesterday from the president's campaign manager. the more the american people see of mitt romney, the less they like him and the less they trust him. >> they were going after him on a number of levels yesterday. >> do you think this is going to be an ugly campaign, richard haass, with all the money with karl rove's money and then the attacks from the left? this is going to be -- >> it's going to be eight months of it, too. eight months. still ahead, virginia governor bob mcdonnell, howard dean, carl bernstein and actor jim gaffigan. we're also monitoring a major earthquake this morning off the coast of indonesia. bill karins has an update on the tsunami warning right after the break. keep it right here on "morning joe." i'm more of an absentee plant parent.

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40 past the hour. time now to get bill karins who's monitoring the effects of a major earthquake off the coast of indonesia. bill. >> good morning, everyone. the ninth strongest earthquake ever measured on our planet just occurred two hours ago in the same area where the 2004 earthquake and tsunami that devastated indonesia hit. very scary times over the last two hours, wondering how big of a tsunami was going to be formed from this earthquake.

i'm happy to say, i haven't heard of any reports of a devastating tsunami. and if anything, it looks like the waves were only about one or two feet, at most. the reason being is that it looks like the displacement of the plates of the earth was not up and down. it was horizontal, not vertical. so the plates didn't shift up and down and push all that water to the surface. and then that forms a tsunami. so, again, it's still early. we still don't know how bad the damage is in banda aceh, the capital, because of the shaking itself. but an 8.6 earthquake, very serious. there's still tsunami watches all through the peninsula of the indian ocean, but so far, so good. still only two hours since it occurred, but it looks like we will not see a repeat of what happened back in 2004, guys. as far as an 8.6, west coast people know, that's a big, big number. >> yep. bill karins, thanks very much. keep on that. after the break, we're going to talk to richard haass about developing major foreign policy

stories, syria and north korea. we'll be right back. i'm freaking out man.

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♪ all right. 45 past the hour. let's get to these two foreign policy stories. north korea moving forward with plans to launch a satellite into orbit despite international criticism. the rocket is now on the launching pad, and fuel preparations are under way. the test launch is meant to coincide with the 100th birthday celebrations of the country's founder. earlier today that founder's grandson, kim jong-un, it underscores the young dictator's position as the supreme leader of north korea. >> richard, saber rattling here? >> well, it's part of the consolidation of power by the

29-year-old, but this is north korea totally busting the agreement we just entered into with them. the idea that we provide a larger amount of food aid, they would suspend their missile programs. here they are preparing a launch of a long-range michl. at the same time, they may be preparing to do a new nuclear test. it's yet another reminder that this last vestige of the cold war has not gone away. >> is this a rite of passage for leaders to prove that they're worthy of running north korea to the military, suckering the united states into a deal and then breaking that deal for all the world to see? >> well, it's not the frs time they've sold that horse. >> it happens all the time. they keep selling the same horse. >> this time essentially we agreed and then pulled back. little part of the consolidation of political power. it's a reminder, though, that even china does not have total control over these characters. they are a rogue. it's also a scary reminder of the nuclear issue. here is one of the countries that we allowed to go nuclear 15, 20 years ago. and this is part of what we've got to deal with. this is now a country with about a dozen nuclear weapons, increasingly long-range

missiles. this is a growing problem. >> and it's a growing problem in north korea. imagine if iran gets a nuclear weapon. put that at the front of the line ahead of north korea, ahead of pakistan. that's a nightmare. >> and then another situation that this administration will have to deal with at some point is syria. the cease-fire scheduled to take effect in the next 24 hours. syrian officials say they will abide by the deal and withdraw government troops from embattled areas. still with a deadline approaching, forces loyal to presh assad have escalated their attacks in several cities across the country. western powers are skeptical assad bill follow through on the u.n.-brokered deal. go figure. secretary of state hillary clinton is preparing to hold a meeting with her russian counterpart to press for a change in policy from that syrian ally. what more can be done as opposed to stepping in? >> well, first of all, there's zero chance that diplomacy's going to work here. what kofi annan is trying to do, zero chance this is going to

work. this is a fight to the finish. they have passed the point of no return. so either this government is going to prevail, or this government is going to be history. but there's no way you're going to have, okay, let's all just let bygones be bygones. 9,000 people have been killed. >> well, and you look at the pictures, the mass graves lined up, far worse than what we saw with gadhafi. >> mm-hmm. >> this is starting to -- some of these images remind me of what we saw in the balkans in '93, '94, '95. >> sure. >> when is the west going to be forced to respond? can they continue to allow these crimes against humanity by assad? >> well, the answer is can they? yes. but there are not just humanitarian reasons but strategic reasons to get involved. you want to see iran dealt a strategic sect back here, the problem is what to do. arming the opposition, working with the opposition is a long-term strategy, might not work. and even if it does work, we're not sure exactly who the opposition is. >> you just talked about what's in our strategic interests. it's much easier, i think, to make an argument that it's in

our strategic interests to go after syria than it was in our strategic interests to go africa dauf after gadhafi or kosovo or bosnia and these other military interventions. why are we pulling back now when actually this is directly in our strategic interests? >> two reasons. one is there's virtually no international consensus on what to do. second of all, designing and carrying out a military operation against syria is not as simple -- not that it was simple -- as, say, it was to deal with gadhafi and libya. you do have an air force, you do have several divisions around the city that can fight. you've got large population density. so this would be not a one or two-day affair. remember, libya took several months. serbia in dealing with that took several months. this would take at least that long, if not longer. this would be a significant military operation. and the question is against this backdrop of fatigue after iraq, after afghanistan, after libya, do we have the stomach for it?

we'd largely be on our own. this would be another big undertaking against a backdrop of what you just said. the real question is how many things do we want to deal with? >> but you take syria out, you isolate iran even more. >> sure. it is a strategic setback for iran. that is to me, along with the humanitarian, that is one of the reasons they'll look to do something. >> we fight so many wars where there is not a direct interest, direct u.s. security interest. there is with syria. >> but joe, intervention is not an abstract idea. intervention is a real undertaking. american lives would be at risk. we'd have to figure out what to do. so far at least most of the military planners i know have not figured out a simple, short, cheap operation because there isn't one. >> i'm not saying we go in. i'm just saying it's fascinating that we went into kosovo. we went into bosnia. we went in -- >> sure. >> -- to libya. and now that we have something that is in our direct strategic interest, we're pulling back. >> with one of the reasons you shouldn't articulate global

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i apologize to the peoples

here, outside who are looking at me, and i'm very, very, very sorry about the problem about what happening. and i will do everything to make it better. everything in my power to make it better. a very stupid comment because when you as poor man, you shouldn't be involved with politics. and politics has nothing to do with sports. and i was very stupid, very naive about the comment, and that's the reason i'm here because i want to try this make this better and people know exactly what i feel. >> oh, my. >> oh, my goodness. >> all right, luke, go. >> luke, good lord, ozzie! >> good morning. good morning. >> look at the green jacket. >> congratulations. >> look at the green jacket! >> huh? after doing willie geist's "way too early" for two days, i'm now a member of augusta. bubba watson's on later, that's why we're wearing this. anyways, that was miami marlins' manager ozzie guillen yesterday

expressing remorse telling "time" magazine he loved dictator fidel castro. apparently that's not one of the things you say out loud in miami. coming to his own defense, guillen suggested that some of his comments may have been lost in translation since he was not speaking in his native spanish. i'm sure richard haass has used that excuse before. >> what i said in spanish, i was taking spanish and say i cannot believe somebody hurt so many people over the years is still alive. >> guillen will begin serving his suspension effective immediately starting with today's game against the phillies. don't know how much money he's going to lose there. a little bit. >> mike, is he gone? >> so ozzie guillen, suspension, what's it say about the culture of sports in america? >> going, going, guillen. >> you can't publicly pronounce your love for fidel castro. >> obviously, in that community, in the miami community, it's so

horribly offensive and ignorant what he said. but i don't think anyone should be fired for saying things. you can say stupid things and not get fired, which that's one thing. but the problem down there is they've just built a new ballpark. >> yeah. >> they are very dependent on attracting fans, many cuban-american fans, to that ballpark. >> it's in the neighborhood. >> if the trauma that ozzie inflicted on the cuban-american community in miami continues and it hurts the marlins at the box office, i think he'll get fired. >> so can ozzie turn it around, luke? >> i think he'll be okay. i think we'll look back at this in the fall and say it was just a blip on the radar. >> he's an idiot. >> yeah. >> bubba watson. >> after he won the world series, what did he say? hugo chavez? >> chavez. still ahead, masters winner bubba watson will be here on set. >> bubba. luke has his green jacket. >> yes, he does, right here on "morning joe."

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♪ ♪ that should do it. enjoy your new shower. [ door opens, closes ] not in this economy. we also have zero free time, and my dad moving in. so we went to fidelity. we looked at our family's goals and some ways to help us get there. they helped me fix my economy, the one in my house. now they're managing my investments for me. and with fidelity, getting back on track was easier than i thought. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy.

get one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. when you get out of office, it's kind of a daunting feeling. i mean, you serve, you've given it your all, then all of a sudden you've got some years ahead of you. and i have decided to stay out of the limelight. i had plenty of the limelight. i don't think it's good, frankly, for our country to undermine our president, and i don't intend to do so. i was asked if you miss the presidency.

i really don't. i mean, i enjoyed it. it was an unbelievably interesting experience. it was inconvenient to have to stop at some stoplights here coming over here. i guess i miss that. >> my gosh. two minutes past the top of the hour. >> unbelievably interesting. >> unbelievably interesting. >> a great experience. >> stop it. >> oh, carl. >> carl bernstein. >> welcome back to "morning joe." now, everyone should not be predictable. >> mike barnicle is here, jon meacham is here, also mark halperin is in orlando, and from capitol hill, former governor of vermont and former chairman of the democratic national committee, howard dean. and here on set, we've got the best-selling author and award-winnering journalist carl bernstein. let's go to our presidential historian. you know, jon meacham, when his story in trying to tackle the bush presidency, a lot of the noise and the clamor that we heard for eight years is going to have to be pushed aside

first. and they're going to have to get their arms around the fact that bush played tight at the end, and he worked with president obama on a couple of bailouts. and came back and admitted he would have bailed out detroit if he were still in office because it had to be done. and so -- and we don't know how the middle east is going to end up 20 years from now. it's going to be very complicated sort of unraveling, the bush presidency. >> absolutely. absolutely. i remember president bush saying that he had just read his fourth book on george washington at a certain point. they're still trying to figure out his presidency. so he figured we'll have an interesting time with his. and it's true. it's an amazing eight years when you think about it. you had an election day that took two months. >> right. >> you had the attacks, the two wars, the economic collapse and the reaction to it which i think the reaction to it in the same way that eisenhower sort of ratified the new deal in a way, bush's reaction to the crisis

does affirm, i think, basically the centrist nature of kind of the establishment party. >> well, and also the very things that made the left and a lot of people in the media criticized bush so much were ratified by barack obama. >> totally. >> and the war on terror. from gitmo to the treatment of -- >> pullback, not ratified. >> what's that? what? >> they weren't pulled back. >> they were ratified. >> well, that's ratification. >> i think you -- >> and in a lot of cases, you look at the drone attacks. actually, the obama administration even more aggressive. can you imagine the response if president bush sent drones into four or five different countries where we weren't at war? i mean, this president has ratified so much of the bush/cheney doctrine that was so offensive to many. >> i do think the bush presidency is going to be really

fascinating. richard who just left, we disagree about this, but to some extent, you have the conflict with iraq and the still-unfolding nature of our relations in the middle east are really on a continuum with his father. so you're dealing with -- and with your father's era to some extent. so you're talking about a 30-year conflict in many ways where a lot of interesting people had extraordinary reactions set in place, policies, that were moved this way and that way. but you are going to have a really fascinating era to talk about really from reagan forward. >> and you know, the era, carl bernstein, started in 1979. with the iranian revolution. your father in the middle of that. and i suspect it's going to end either with a nuclear iran or a war. >> that's very possible. but i think we're missing the catastrophic nature of george bush's presidency. >> i'm sure -- and we brought

you here to tell us the catastrophic nature. >> well, i think picking a war in the wrong place is fairly catastrophic. the death of 25 -- of the numbers of americans who were killed, what we lost economically and in terms of lives in that conflict, an unnecessary conflict. >> credibility. >> instead of looking at this as a question of left and right, i think what you're talking about in terms of some tactics of national security protection, indeed part of the doctrine of drone warfare, of s.e.a.l.s, of all kinds of tactics, and some suspension of civil liberties have been continued in this administration. but the basic decision to go to war in the wrong place under also pretenses -- >> let me ask you, what is the right place? >> iran -- iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. we went to war under false pretenses. on the basis of false intelligence knowingly. >> we know what the wrong war

was. >> right. >> i only ask what the right war was because we had everybody including president obama in 2008 saying afghanistan was the right war. >> going to attack afghanistan at the time as the source of where the 9/11 attacks were harbored made some sense. continuing it through the obama presidency with boots on the ground, as your father has rightly pointed out, has not made sense, and we're getting out. look, this whole adventure has been a catastrophe for this country beginning with the wrong response to 9/11 and also the economic consequences of the bush presidency are unlike anything we have experienced in the last 30 years. so to give george bush a pass the way we're just listening to it seems to me to be a great mistake. >> you know, we're not turning him into a cartoon character like too many people have in the past. we're actually taking a nuanced

view of it. so nobody's giving george w. bush a pass. and nobody's been more critical of george bush on spending. i've been critical of george bush and his military adventurism in the second term. but it is a complicated legacy, and historians are not going to turn him into the cartoon character that we in the media have over the past eight years. i do think, though, it is very complicated, and there is another way that we have to look at this, mike. and historians will have an opportunity to look at this. we haven't been attacked over the past eight, nine years. i've been critical of george w. bush for adventurism. i've been critical of barack obama for tripling the number of troops for continuing a lot of bush's policies, for sending drones into countries where we are not at war right now. but guess what? under george w. bush and barack obama, there has not -- obviously, he killed osama bin laden as well. there has not been an attack in

new york city or in washington or on american soil since september 11th, and who the hell would have predicted that on september the 12th? >> very few people. very few people. >> considering what our intel community deals with every day, and they never get the credit for the attacks they stop. >> no, they don't. you really can't ignore the fact that perhaps the single -- not perhaps -- the single most important thing any american president has on his plate or her plate historically, up until today, is the decision to put this country into a war, to send american troops into a war. and george w. bush made the decision to go to war with ir iran -- >> iraq. >> in iraq. wholly illogical. when you consider the fact that things might have been alterably

changed, pursuing osama bin laden in the tora bora mountains in december 2001, who knows what would have happened? that's past history. he has to live with that history. we have to live with that history. one of the things that george w. bush does not get enough credit for, though, i think is that in the fall of 2008 when the economy was collapsing, it was his treasury secretary, and he, as president, and his fed chief, ben bernanke, who saved the american economy. i mean, i don't think there's much doubt about that. now, how we got to that point is an entirely different story. but they had the resources and the will to save the american economy. >> you know, we will continue our historical analysis of the 43rd president a bit, but we've got news actually that's happening that i'd love to hear howard dean's response to as well as obviously mark halperin. his window is closing quickly. >> yes, it is. former pennsylvania senator rick santorum bowed out of the

republican race for president yesterday. in the end, the delegate math just was against him. and after his young daughter bella was recently hospitalized, santorum said the decision to leave the race is best for his family. santorum's announcement came just two weeks ahead of the pennsylvania primary where tightening poll numbers suggested his home state was in jeopardy. >> ladies and gentlemen, we made a decision to get into this race at our kitchen table and against all the odds. and we made a decision over the weekend that while this presidential race for us is over for me and we will suspend our campaign effective today, we are not done fighting. we are going to continue to fight for those voices. we're going to continue to fight for the americans who stood up and gave us that air under our wings that allowed us to accomplish things that no political expert would have ever expected. >> mark halperin, in 60 seconds,

put rick santorum's hit cal campaign into perspective for us. >> great opportunity for people to see you can run for president without being the best funded candidate that you can make up for things that have happened in your political past, and there's no way to take away from him the fact that he really put himself on the map. all those victories, 11 victories, winning millions of votes across the country. on the other hand, we talked earlier about his ability to grow. people tend to do better the next time. you know, i still think he could have been a more gracious person, someone who showed more of a sense of humor. he has both. i don't think he showed them much yesterday. i don't think he showed them much on the campaign trail, and he failed to have the kind of discipline you need. you're more optimistic, joe, if he runs again, will be able to learn from this experience. i didn't see him grow all that much as a candidate despite how well he did. he was about this good when he was at 1% as he was on the day he left. and so i think he's going to have to think about it. if he does want to be a player in national life, can he learn

from this and grow which, again, i didn't see much of as well as he did as much as i don't want to take a thing away from how he did. i think he could have posed a real challenge to mitt romney. >> howard dean, how important -- first, before i ask about the impact of it, you sit there and look at this guy who had no money, he ended up winning 11, 12 contests. gosh, you've done this before. this is tough business. >> yeah, it was very -- it was extraordinary. he did it on the strength of his ideological place in the ideological spectrum. i mean, without trying to do the democratic talking points here, this was a niche for santorum. they were about to nominate a centrist. that's not where the republican party is. somebody had to give voice to all those activists who were feeling like the party wasn't their party anymore, and it was rick santorum. but i'm with mark. he did this with no organization whatsoever. so what he didn't learn was how to put together an organization. i don't think it's possible to win the nomination without a really good organization. and he and gingrich were just

amazing to me. they did very well, and they had no organization. i couldn't believe it. >> and joe, he did something that you always talk about, the effectiveness of just simply knocking on doors. >> oh, yeah. >> he knocked on more doors in iowa than any candidate. >> we kept talking about this in the fall and throughout the fall when newt gingrich was spotted in washington, d.c., instead of iowa and herman cain was giving speeches in georgia on book tours. >> 9-9-9. >> and hard work always wins. hard work and money wins. and rick santorum was knocking on doors every day. and he ended up winning. hard work helped him win, which i think like jimmy carter's win in 1976 in iowa, it is inspiring to see that hard work and knocking on people's doors and planting yard signs can still have an impact. >> this is why i wonder if some of our analysis is slightly ahead of the game because he was a conviction candidate.

>> right. >> and if he had not sold -- if he had undersold that to some extent, he might not have gotten as far as he did. so it's like an aesop's fable a little bit. >> howard, you were just saying, this is like an aesop's fable. >> i was just saying. >> but you agree with john, though, about the passion. the passion he showed that may have turned off some people in manhattan and georgetown is what connected him to -- >> at the end of the day, it's true. and you do get rewarded for hard work in problem. but the problem that doesn't translate to votes in florida which is sort of the waterloo for republican candidates. the amazing thing to me about this campaign, and we've talked about this before, is that one guy, shelly addleson, can change the course of history. when he propped up gingrich and then gingrich eventually failed and then santorum took his place, he added two months to the republican campaign -- to the republican primaries.

and that has been, i think, going to prove to be fatal to mitt romney because of all this controversy about the immigration and birth control, which he can't recover from in the latino and among women. so i do think santorum is a niche player. i don't think he learned how to organize. i do think he was a good candidate. i knew he was going to be a good candidate because i've debated him. despite his very right-wing views, he's a pleasant person. and that goes a long way in american politics. >> jon meacham. >> governor, i just wanted to ask you, you're the one person here here who's really been in this position. what does santorum feel like today? >> santorum -- well, everybody's different. you know, he got out to save his legacy because he was going to lose the pennsylvania primary. romney just had millions of dollars, 3-1, he was going to outspend him and just hammer him. so he got out and preserved his political viability, and that's smart. you know, when i got out after the wisconsin primary where i came in third, i basically went home and did all the things i hadn't done for a year and a

half. spent some time with my family, cleaned out my garage. you're so exhausted when you get out, you don't feel that horrible sense of oh, my gosh, i should have won. i should have done this. you're kind of ready to get off the campaign trail. >> exhausting process. howard dean, thank you very much. >> thanks, howard. >> stick around. we'll get to you next. still ahead, we'll talk to virginia governor bob mcdonnell, also masters champion bubba watson and comedian jim gaffigan. >> all right. >> up next, democratic senator from delaware, senator chris coons joins us here on set. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. americans believe they should be in charge of their own future.

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my grandfather came back in 1925. he worked in the mine at a company town, got paid with coupons he used to call them. he ended up continuing to work in those mines until he was 72 years old. digging coal. i'll never forget the first time

i saw someone who had died. it was my grandfather. and i net next to his coffin, and all i could do was eye level, was look at his hands. they were enormous hands. and all i could think was those hands dug freedom for me. >> that was rick santorum after his win in iowa and the best speech of the republican campaign in a message that he said here he should have stuck with. he may in the future. with us now, democratic senator from delaware, senator chris coons. thank you so much for being with us. carl, we missed you last block. but rick santorum, what's your take? >> one is you could see there he had an ability to connect with people, with people who are hurting. >> no teleprompter. >> and he did it especially in contrast to mitt romney. but he also proved that the republican party is a radical party in this election, beholden

to radical interests and has enabled the democrats to become the centrist party with a centrist incumbent president running against someone who has been captured by the right wing, and it's going to be hell for republicans to overcome the legacy of gingrich and santorum in this primary season. they have dragged romney to a place where he's had to totally obviate his real past, be disingenuous about it. and who the hell knows who he is anymore as a result of this? >> i'm curious, have you been out of manhattan? >> i've been all over the country. >> all over the country. >> all over the country. all over the country. look -- >> well, i mean, if the country is the acela line. >> just back from tulsa, oklahoma, just back from arkansas. i think that this is going to be a close election. people are concerned about the economy, obviously.

>> yeah. >> part of the republican message resonates. >> now, you don't think mitt romney's radical, do you? i don't think he's radical enough. >> i think he's been captured by the radicalism. >> he hasn't been captured to me. >> i think he's really pinned down and captured in an almost li lilliputian way. >> obama is an extremist socialist, and romney is an extremist -- >> radical. >> you mentioned the super pacs which i think that -- >> i love super pacs. you just wanted to bring them up. >> our job as -- i'm talking about the left and the right. >> you're going to bring up citizens united. >> citizens united can determine this election unless we in the press hold these candidates accountable to their real records. is what they say true?

is what obama says true? and the same with romney. otherwise we are going to have our democratic system stolen from under us by the supreme court. >> okay. so then let me ask our next guest. >> men and women in black robes. >> oh, lord. all right. senator. i'm going to ask you to defend the buffett rule. are you prepared? >> i am. >> you are? >> i think we're going to take up a vote this week on the buffett rule. at the end of the day, it's about fairness. it's about fairness in our tax system, and it's about saying to the average american -- >> i get what it's about, though. let me ask you this. here's what "the wall street journal" asks. this is the question. they say the buffett rule is really nothing more than a sneaky way for mr. obama to justify doubling the capital gains and dividend tax rate from 30% from 15%. that's the real spread the wealth target. the problem is that this is a tax on capital that is needed for firms to grow and hire more workers. mr. obama says he wants an investment-led recovery, not one led by consumption, but how will investment be spurred by doubling the tax on it? >> well, as -- you had a debate the other day with congressman

ryan with the chairman of the house budget committee. and i would agree that one of the issues that was raised in that discussion by joe was how do we make sure that small businesses that are a significant number of the filers under the corporate section that would pay a 30% rate have some carve-out where if they're investing, creating jobs, they don't face a doubling of their tax rates? i do think that's a reasonable criticism of the buffett rule if just applied across the board. the core issue here is about individual income tax rates and how it's possible for the standard bearer of the republican party apparently now governor romney to pay who knows what because we don't have his tax returns for the past couple years. through offshore like the caymans, taxicab drivers, cops, postal workers are paying 30%. there's an issue about fairness. it isn't going to balance the budget, but it's important for values and for showing fairness. >> let me ask you about my

conversation with paul ryan yesterday. i tried to nail paul down on what rich was defined as. i'm really concerned when we raise taxes on filers $250,000 and above because as you know from your state, a lot of small businesses get caught there. >> that's right. >> so do you have a number? is it 500,000? is it a million? >> to me on individual income rates above 1 million is something that the average american would agree. these are folks who, as we are digging our way out of the hole of two wars in a dramatic deficit and debt could contribute more. it is an issue of fairness. at the end of the day, there's 45 senators, republican and democrat, who have signed on to an approach that's sort of all of the above. we have to raise revenue. we have to significantly consult spendi cut spending and deal with entitlements. i respect the deal ryan has put out. i'm hopeful to mark up and show what the budget should be on the senate side. but the reality is in the budget control act, we've got caps.

we've made progress in making some significant cuts in spending. we have to make more. i disagree with the values decisions ryan's budget makes, how it gets there, but we have to have a debate, we have to have a conversation. my hope is that this presidential campaign, after this long extreme season of, you know, cain and perry and bachmann and so forth will turn to being a real debate about where do we go in the budget. >> nor, lsenator, let me ask yo. the fact that democrats haven't put a budget out in over 1,000 days. the president hasn't had a single vote for his two budgets over the past two years. and there are a lot of things that i don't agree with on paul ryan's budget, but i understand where paul is coming from. it's a starting point on the right. when do we get that solid starting point on the left so we can move towards the center and have agreement? >> the reality is we're not going to get a budget resolution out of the senate. we've got a budget, a binding

budget control act that was enacted overwhelmingly in the senate last august. and it's got the caps for the next two years. i do think we ought to be having a debate. the budget committee has been holding a whole series of hearings. in fact, our committee chairman, senator conrad, last sunday, was saying we need to, we ought to go to markup, have a public discussion. the reality is we're not going to get a vote on the floor. >> right. >> and we all know that the senate at this point is having great difficulty passing things in a bipartisan way. so my hope, given the financial tsunami that's coming at us in january of 2013 in terms of changes and tax rates and changes in fiscal policy, my hope is that this presidential campaign will be a chance for the average american to pitch in and say, are you willing to give, as ryan would, massive tax cuts to the wealthiest americans and turn medicaid into a block grant program and cut the social safety net, or would you rather see a balanced approach that raises some revenue, lowers rates, broadens the base, and cuts spending more broadly and more sustainably? >> very well done. >> you agree medicare, not

medicaid, but medicare is one of the major -- actually, both of them. >> it's huge. we have to find ways to manage costs without violating the trust that we've built up over generations that this is a universal source of security and comfort in health care. it's extremely difficult. >> but there have to be entitlement cuts somewhere down the line with medicare and medicaid that democrats are going to have to embrace, aren't there? >> most democrats have said that as long as it is a balance that includes revenue -- >> right. >> -- and includes defense and other spending reforms that they're willing to look at, putting everything on the table, i think that's sort of the balanced approach that the average american will embrace. to your point, carl, i do think romney is now saddled with the fact that in the campaign, he said things that were extreme, not just on social issues but on economic issues. >> come on. do you guys not have etch-a-sketchs in delaware? >> senator chris coons. >> that takes care of it. go, flyers. >> 7:30 on nbc sports.

>> look at him. still ahead, pipeline politics. boone pickens on energy policy and how gas prices are shaping the race. also, comedian jim gaffigan will be joining us. >> i'd like to be in the middle of that conversation right now. >> what are they actually saying? keep it right here on "morning joe." so who ordered the cereal that can help lower cholesterol and who ordered the yummy cereal? yummy. [ woman ] lower cholesterol. [ man 2 ] yummy. i got that wrong didn't i? [ male announcer ] want great taste and whole grain oats that can help lower cholesterol? honey nut cheerios. it's this... the etrade pro platform. finds top performing stocks -- in three clicks. quickly scans the market for new trading ideas. got it? get it. good. introducing new etrade pro elite.

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welcome back to "morning joe." we are watching indonesia carefully this morning. three hours ago an 8.6 magnitude earthquake struck the region, the same area that dealt with the devastating earthquake and tsunami back in 2004. thankfully this one did not produce a devastating earthquake and tsunami. it was only about two feet high. just last hour, they had an aftershock of 8.2. if you follow earthquakes like anyone in the west coast does, an 8.2 aftershock is ridiculously strong. we're not sure if that one's going to produce a tsunami or not. there are new watches and warnings out for much of the indian ocean because of the aftershock that is affecting the region. but so far i guess the big news is that we just saw our planet's snooingt strongest ever recorded earthquake, but no reports of any deaths or major devastation thankfully throughout areas of indonesia. still, they're still very scared with these aftershocks and the potential for them to produce

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and that little bay laurel, it provides bay leaves for every one of my restaurants. the customers, tools, and insights to help grow your business. that's the membership effect of american express. domestic oil production's at an eight-year high. >> oh, really? his own administration insists production is down. >> a lot of these go back to bush-era decisions and most of them are around private land. so you're taking credit for this boost in exploration which is not really fair. >> taking credit for others' hard work. typical washington. no matter how obama spends it, gas costs too much. tell obama stop blaming others. work to pass better energy policies. >> that's an ad by the republican super pac american

crossroads that will be airing in swing states including florida, iowa and ohio. joining us now, founder and ceo of pb capital management, t. boone pickens. nice to have you. >> thank you. >> good to have you back. >> look how healthy he is. >> i ran over here from the hotel. >> did you? >> t. boone, how old are you now? >> 83. 84 next month. >> 84 next month. whatever you and dr. brzezinski are drinking, i want it. >> lithuanian vodka. >> i asked him -- >> i don't drink vodka. >> do you walk every day? walk, hell no. you take after it on the treadmill. >> yep, i do. >> eight degrees. >> i have a trainer that's been with me 19 years. >> my goodness. >> you know what he says when people ask him what he does? >> what's that? >> he said, "keep him alive." >> he's doing a good job. he's doing a good job of it. >> incentive pay program. >> so we're seeing -- we're seeing right now, of course, gas wars on tv.

who's to blame for high gas prices? who's really for energy exploration? what's the story out there? >> you want it in 30 seconds? >> yeah. >> i want it however you want it. >> 28. >> the gas price is controlled by opec. if you look at the world today, oil coming from opec is $125 a barrel. wti, which is our local crew in the united states, west texas intermediate, it's $100, $105. it's $20 cheaper. we have the cheapest energy in the world, did you know that? >> i did not know that. >> okay. the global price for oil is $125. the united states, $105. so we're 20% under the global price. and we're crying about it. second, we have the cheapest gasoline in the world. we're at $4. and europe's $9. and natural gas is the real bargain. it's $2. you've got beijing at $16.

mideast, $15, and europe, $13. >> you've talked about natural gas for a very, very long time. >> i have. >> it looks like the rest of america has caught up with you. >> they finally are getting the picture. >> finally have. do you think the environmentalists, though, are going to get in the way of the type of exploration that makes a big difference? >> if you look at the california model, the reason they went to natural gas 20 years ago in california was because of air quality. it's 30% cleaner than diesel. and so, you know, that's what you use. 2800 buses, l.a. mta, is all on natural gas. >> so if you were in charge of energy policy in america, what one or two things could you do to reduce the cost of gas? i realize we're so self-absorbed here, we think $4 a gallon gasoline is ridiculous. but what could you do to, you know, lower the price of gas or lower the cost of home heating oil and to have an environmentally sound energy program, self-sustaining? >> okay.

i'd rather be president than secretary of energy. >> well, okay. i'll elect you president. what would you do? >> all right, you're president. >> i'd get an energy policy for america. you're the only country in the world without an energy policy, and we use 25% of all the oil. we're insane. and we have resources in america that we could have an energy policy. could we be energy independent? i wouldn't want to be because i want to work with the canadians. but we workcanadians like they're the enemy sometimes. >> how's that? >> we can't bring in the keystone pipeline in the united states. this is over the life of the properties up at ft. mcmurray, but that's 250 billion barrels of oil that the united states would capture for our use. very close, contiguous, safe oil available to the united states. i'm for anything american. and when you say clean, natural gas is cleaner. but i'm for anything american. but you know that wind and solar

are not going to move an 18-wheeler. >> are there jobs -- i mean, we've heard about, you know, green jobs. >> i know. >> are there jobs in this? is this a whole new -- >> sure, if you go out and subsidize some of these things to develop them, yeah, you get jobs out of it, of course. the jobs are in the oil and gas industry in the united states. i mean, that's where it is. you have an industry that is superb in comparison of oil companies around the world. they are the best. they found the oil the cheapest. they found the gas the cheapest for you. and you have somebody saying, hey, they're not paying their fair share. and they make too much money. they should be taxed more. hey, they've gone out and done exactly what you wanted. they got jobs for you. they got the oil and gas cheaper for you. the problem is nobody understands energy in america. >> yeah. >> if they understood energy, they would know that, hey, something good is happening here.

>> so, boone, domestic oil production is up. not enough, i guess you could argue. >> oh, it's up. it's good. >> it's up more than in a long time. and obviously, this issue is complicated, and there's different opinions as to how to solve it which often leads to slow growth. but what do you think this administration has done that is good on its energy policy? >> well, they don't have an energy policy. >> you don't think that the oil production being up domestically is due to the work of this administration? you don't think -- >> it has nothing to do with the administration. >> -- different issues that they have put into place -- >> no. it doesn't have anything to do with the republicans either. >> so we've gotten nowhere, in your estimate. >> sure, we have. we're producing more oil today than we did five years ago. we've gotten someplace, but it's because of technology advanced by the industry. what's getting ready to happen to you, the horizontal drilling in the multiple frac zones in it, that's all going -- it's going to be exported away from america. is that bad?

no, it's not bad. it's an industry developed here to share with other people, develop reserve -- let me tell you, you are looking at a fundamental change in energy globally is what you have. the opec nations are going to have the power taken away from them that they've enjoyed for the last 20 years. >> and we can do it. jon meacham. >> has there been a moment in the last 40 years where you thought the government was actually helping? >> helping where? >> on energy? or is it just getting them out of there? is this a laissez-faire argument, just get them out of there, let the industry do it? >> i'm trying to think. have they helped? i don't know of any place. >> so in your view, does the election matter? the presidential election this year? >> does the election matter? now are we on energy or off energy? >> energy. >> i think that -- i think that romney -- obama, his hands are tied. he's got the greenies on the

left, but nobody accuses me of not being green. i'm in the wind business. >> you're mr. wind. >> damn right. >> what's cleaner than that, man? >> i've lost my ass in the business, too. >> you've invested more in a alternative energy than anybody else. >> exactly. nobody can jump on me. i'm in marin county making a speech, and they said, here's a longtime, lifelong conserve ty a conservative and they say, how do they see you tonight? as a patriotic old man with an idea. >> that's pretty good. >> listen, i don't have -- my issue is not political. i mean, this is an opportunity for america to advance, get on the back of cheap energy, and recover your economy. >> i love it. >> i mean, it can be done. but we have no plan. >> right. >> but obama needs to go in, study it, look at it, and decide what an energy plan is and then go forward with it. he needs to explain to his

people, hey, we can't get on everything green. we can get on everything renewable. then the cost of power will go up ten times. so be careful when you start fooling around with it. know what you're working with. but hell, i'm for green. i'm a conservationist. that's one thing. and demand is off for gasoline. demand on api figures last night are down, and that's good. >> all right. >> the white house would take some credit for that. boone pickens, thank you very much. it's good to see you. >> he's grainy. very grainy. up next, actor and comedian jim gaffigan standing by. we'll be right back. >> that's got to hurt his knee right there. i've discovered gold. [ female announcer ] the gold standard in anti-aging. roc® retinol. found in roc® retinol correxion deep wrinkle night cream. it's clinically proven to give 10 years back to the look of skin.

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my facebook friend forgot my birthday. why am i so bad at hide and seek? >> that was a clip from jim and mr. universe. with us now comedian jim gathe gshg gathegen. >> jim gathgen and he'll just stare at me. what's he doing? >> you, of course, you are mr. universe. >> i'm mr. universe. >> this is big, you don't look like mr. universe to me, and we say this on the day we find out there is a transgender in the miss universe contest. >> i think i turned perfectly. i contacted donald trump and i said do me a solid and he hooked me up. i'm always entering the miss universe contest. i think i will probably win it.

>> so talk about mr. universe. >> mr. universe is my new comedy special that my wife jeannie and i have written over the past two years and instead of releasing it through a traditional method on a cable channel or through the dvd distribution i'm selling it on my website jim gaffigan.com for $5 just to get away from any ickiness that might occur from selling to people that like my comedy. i'm giving $1 of it away to the bob woodruff foundation. >> great foundation. >> yes. obviously, we love him. are you upset about being bumped off the letterman. was it letterman? >> well, letterman, i'm have indiana and he's a big influence on me, and i told dave that i wanted to announce the on sale on letterman, and it was all set up and then bubba. >> right. >> bumps me just because he wins, like, a golf game.

>> what is that? i don't get it. >> i don't know. the guy wins a jacket and suddenly he's more important than a comedian that five out of 100 people have heard of. >> i don't get it. >> i don't get it at all. it seem it is like anti-pale behavior. it really is. i take it as an affront, and if i see his general lee car i'm going to tp it. >> explain what the problem was. >> the problem is he doesn't like america. he's against america for bumping me. i'm an entrepreneur. >> right. >> i was talking to boone. he told me he goes, you're my favorite comedian. i'm going to give you $1 billion. he actually said that and i was, like, hey can you -- and he said that he wants bubba -- you know that bubba's real name is hyman

fleischmann? >> no, i didn't. >> no idea! >> i've had this rivalry with bubba -- >> you hate him, don't you? >> it's not that i hate him. i hate the fact that he hates america and this he's constan y constantly -- like, he wants to get in the way of america. >> you're -- >> against taxes and corporations. he's got some freaky idea, but i'm not here, you know -- the fact that bubba watson is against women is none of my business. i'm just here to promote mr. universe because i'm trying to do some good. >> by the way, while jim's talking, this is where he would have been last night. >> look at the wig he's wearing. >> and the chair that he was sitting in. >> you know, the whole tastes great, less filling controversy, we come down on both sides because we've got the great jim gaffigan here and we have hyman later on. >> hyman fleischmann will be on

later. >> he's coming up in the next hour. >> i bumped him. >> okay. >> the idea, the whole idea of jim gaffigan.com, you download mr. universe on it that seems to be a way of short stopping a lot of things that used to impede the customer from getting stuff. is it working? >> you know what? he'll see. i literally went on sale last night. it was definitely inspired by a friend of mine luis decay who was a great comedian and he started it all. his idea was keep it at a very low price and make it really easy to buy and it's literally three click. i'm not a computer savvy person, but -- i'm no bubba watson. >> jim, thank you. >> very quickly, talk about the bob woodruff foundation. >> certainly. >> why did you decide to give some money? >> i knew i wanted to do a charity element and i wanted to

do something different than louie had done and i knew he would charge more. >> but i don't know, i don't think it was a career move especially for south florida contributing to castro. >> yeah. he did that. he contributed to bubba watson. >> come on! >> louie actually gave away some money, too, but i was looking for a charity. obviously there's tons of charities. i had done a benefit with bob and lee, and i'd seen that there was just virtually no bureaucracy in their foundation and it was based kind of on an individual experience i had on a subway ride where a guy started talking to me and explained to me that prior to going to iraq he was an a student and after returning to iraq he wasn't confident that he would finish college and it kind of stayed with me over the course of going from prince street to -- or spring street to 42nd street and that resonated with me, and that

kind of -- you know, i feel like it all lined up. >> that's another contrast to bubba watson who will just tell you if you ask him and we'll ask him, he doesn't give a damn about that. >> he's actually against the american troops. >> good luck with the pageants. >> thank you. >> mr. universe, buy it on jim gaffigan.com. it will change your life and add a couple of change to your life. >> the winner of the masters. bubba watson, straight ahead.

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people say how did this happen? how were we able to come from nowhere? it's because i was smart enough to figure out that if i understood and felt at a very deep level what you were experiencing across america and tried to be a witness to that, tried to be, in a sense, an interpreter to that that your voice could be heard and miracles can happen, and so it did. good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set we have mike barnacle, john meechum and richard hoes and in orlando, mike halpern. >> rick santorum's bowed out of the race or at least suspended it, but mike burden ak arnacle,

people think we cut every clip, but the one clip that was missing was, i think, the best speech in the entire republican primary. >> yeah. >> the speech where rick santorum talked about his grandfather who worked in the steel mill and the strong hands and it was a powerful moment for santorum, probably, i think, a moment that catapulted him into prominence. >> and of course, the frustration was john meechum, among a lot of republicans who didn't want mitt romney to win that he didn't stay laser focused on that message and he didn't channel this story about his grandfather and how his grandfather had won the american dream for his grandson and entire family. >> he swung at every pitch. whenever there was a chance to

comment on a social issue that would get the assignment editors more interested in the populist message he would play along. >> and of course, mike halpern, everybody is talking about what he did wrong, but he won iowa. he was sitting at 2% a week or two before that. he won iowa, georgia, mississippi, louisiana -- >> 11 states and four counties than any other candidate. >> kansas, he won in minnesota, north dakota and out in colorado and tennessee. he won more counties than anybody, and he did it with no money and no organization. >> i hate to disagree with john meechum, but i think sometimes senator santorum swung even before the ball was pitched. >> perhaps. >> you can argue it either way. i clearly defied expectations and it's a great story for anyone who wants to run for president. you don't need that much money.

you don't need that much name i.d. if you work hard and have a message that's great because we want an open process. on the other hand, i do think had he continued the economic message and had he been more disciplined and stayed away from the issues that even in the republican nomination contest, i think he could have posed a much bigger challenge to mitt romney in michigan and elsewhere. he'll need to be more disciplined and more focussed if he's going to consolidate what he's achieved and be a factor this year and beyond. >> you know, richard, there's a reason why it takes presidential candidates a couple of times to get this right. you learn what your failings are, and i remember the first time we were in iowa and a pack of reporters were following rick santorum and he was starting to pickup, and he's undisciplined and he'll talk for two hours. even then -- of course, he went on to win iowa, but even then,

they were talking about the lack of discipline and messaging. the next time he runs he will understand. i mean, did he run around saying contraception, contraception, no, he did not, but he didn't know and his organization didn't know how to shape the message better. that's a mistake he won't make twice. >> absolutely. the fact that governor romney tells him this time, and also the staffs get better. you learn how to do this. this is as much of a skill, as it is as an art. you're not naturally a great candidate. you learn along the way and the other thing is you have to come back to the real issue of the day which is economics, and just as an aside i thought yesterday was an interesting day with the market swooning around the world. it's a reminder that the context is not fundamentally changed and that is going to be the issue in anything else and it was a pretty good day for romney and the economic contest, and

markets are doing very, very badly and the possibility of iran and north korea and these issues are coming together. it just brings home the economic context is fragile and that's going to be still the defining issue. >> first-time candidates always like to talk about how the press isn't fair and the process isn't fair and of course, it doesn't seem fair because you will have the press on something you say and blow it up and hammer it, but rick santorum knows now again, these are the rules that you play in if you're run for example president. why are you shocked? he was alive in 1988. he saw when michael dukakis put the helmet on and rode in that tank. he understands -- that was fair to michael dukakis? no, it wasn't fair to michael dukakis and sometimes images set in and they're in cement and that's the way the game is

played every four years and he'll be a better player. >> it's a ruinous process also on families, as well. it's very difficult. in the end, the delegate -- and after his daughter bella was hospitalized he said the decision to leave the race was best for his family. his announcement came two weeks after the pennsylvania primary where tightening poll numbers suggested his home state was in jeopardy. >> ladies and gentlemen, we -- we made the decision to get into this race at the kitchen table against all the odds and we made a decision over the weekend that while this presidential race for us is over for me and we will suspend our campaign effective today we are not done fighting. we will continue to fight for those voices. we will continue to fight for the americans who stood up and gave us that air under our wings

that allowed us to accomplish things that no political expert would have ever expected. >> if you go down the list of sort of the life, marriage, social, conservative issues and we were all pretty much in line. yet i was considered the extremist which i found very interesting. the reason i'm considered the extremist is number one, the people who evaluate these candidates and label extremism understood that i actually believed what i said i believed in. >> right. >> no endorsement of mitt romney. >> no endorsement of mitt romney. >> you know, he was labeled an extremist for a lot of other reasons and it was something that he found also is there are youtube clips out there that stay out there whether it's, you

know, a small interview he gave in iowa back when nobody was watching or whether it was things he said -- >> "the new york times" highlights on the editorial page with five key quotes that's vintage santorum. >> i certainly do understand him saying that and being upset, but the rick santorum that learned from his mistakes, the one that said oh, gosh, i wish i hadn't said that about jfk in the sweater or my wife got after me after i said that stupid thing about college, that's the rick santorum that has to emerge from this. he has to joke about the mistakes he made and mainstream himself a little bit more. we have to tell one other part of this story mike halperin and when he was being outspent five to one, sometimes he was still

beating romney. this was a guy that was such -- i mean, more or less than anybody else in modern american political history and he's so surprised that team romney, the death star had prepared to kill every candidate from pawlenty through palin, through trump, through cain, through perry, through newt, through everybody. they didn't even have opposition research for rick santorum because there was no way the guy at 1% was ever going to hurt him. >> well, and they all felt they had the kind of vulnerabilities that when they did have to go after him they exploited the more moderate voting record as senator from pennsylvania. look, if you just took the names off it and took the money away, santorum was a much better fit for the mood of the party today than mitt romney is and not just on social issues, but on

economics. but he was badly outspent. that sticks in his craw a bit. where rick santorum gives the kind of speech that's supportive of romney that takes the edge off all of the negative things he said and felt about romney. the question is will rick santorum actually deliver it? >> he doesn't deliver prepared speeches and that's a real challenge. the romney wants him front and center, raising money and going to constituencies and be a role in tampa and if they can get him onboard, the press will make a big deal, but it will be helpful and he is a better communicator in a lot of ways and not just in his family buyout, but in a lot of issues that move the party today. >> the voters that win 11 states and not necessarily voters that were thinking of mitt romney at all. it was helpful. >> it's a great question about their enthusiasm in the fall because as you say, these are

not people who have been rushing to embrace romney, but i think one of the things historically is very strong runners up, whether it was george bush in 1980 or john mccain in 2000 or bill bradley and howard dean in 2000 and 2004 represent about where roughly a quarter of the country is, right? and i think santorum,a as mark just said represents that tea party, strong, cultural social conservative element and to some extent he has his vices and virtues. he's immensely popular with an element and part of the electorate that has a natural ceiling right now so he didn't -- he didn't go from his base plus this time. >> see, the trick is to -- everybody knew where he stood on

traditional marriage and everyone knew where he stood on social issues and the disciplined candidate would sort of nod and wink. he would say when i'm there -- we'll just keep it low. i'm talking about my granddad and i'll talk about economic populism and mike barnacle, we all knew where he stood on social issues. the discipline candidate never talks about social issues. you know what? i'm pro life. you know what? right now let's talk about what's affecting all americans and that is that the economy -- and then he talks about economic populism. if he had done that he could have broke through that ceiling and expanded that base, and again, i'm sure he'll do that next time. >> i agree with you in terms of his positions on social issues and how he articulated him. >> i don't think any average

person gets angry over social issues and rick santorum, maybe because of where he was in the polls and maybe because of the lack of attention that was paid to him and maybe because he was up against a huge money machine that was interest attack mode and everyone who popped up below the fault line running against romney. he brought to each day, in addition to his views and strong beliefs and they were his beliefs on social issues and other issues, a level of anger to his remarks that was not helpful. it was not helpful. when he spoke about his grandfather there was no anger there. there was feeling. there was genuine feeling that people could clearly identify with, but when he would speak about his opponents and his views on issues and how they were covered by the mainstream media, was there a level of anger within him that caused a lot of people to say ooh, ooh, ooh. >> if he had done the winking

would he have gotten the attention? would it have worked if he hadn't turned on that base. he was the most successful on romney with his popular role of the year. >> coming up, the chairman of the governor association, governor bob mcdonnell. he joins us on the set and also the winner of last week's masters tournament. >> bubba's coming! we love it! >> what's going on with you? you just don't get that. >> right. >> it's a big country. you know what? some of us like sporting events other than polo. bill, what's going on? >> oh, boy, a little excited about the green jacket like we all are, joe. good morning, everyone. we have some serious news out of indonesia this morning a couple of hours ago, a powerful earthquake struck the region and we're very concerned about a devastating tsunami. this is one of the stronger

earthquakes that struck in the region. an hour and a half ago 8.2 magnitude. we haven't heard that anything was devastating there. we'll continue to watch it and to get an 8.2 magnitude or higher. usually you get one a year and we've had two in indonesia. the big story is the rain in southern california. we have a rainy, wet commute down i-5 from los angeles, to long beach and oceanside. that drive is never fun. otherwise we'll look at showers in new england and it's cool, if not cold in the ohio valley, but the sun will be out this afternoon and we'll have thunderstorms in the area. overall, a pretty quiet weather pattern and the stormy weather is headed for the middle of the country with a couple of severe weather outbreaks as we head to the weekend. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] if you believe the mayan calendar,

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never seen a less optimistic time in my life time in this country and people wonder why. i think it's really simple. it's because government is now telling them stop dreaming, stop strivi striving, we'll take care of you. we are turning into a paternalistic, entitlement society. that will not just bankrupt us financially, it will bankrupt us

morally because the american people no longer believe that this is a place where only their willingness to work hard and to act with honor, integrity and ingenuity determines their success in life, then we'll have a bunch of people sitting on a couch waiting for their next government check. >> well now! >> strong talk! >> that is strong words from governor chris christie. would you agree with his assessment of our society? >> bob mcdonnell is here. joining us from virginia, governor mcdonnell. >> you'll be hanging out in sweden. >> i am. >> with mark brzezinski. >> ambassador brzezinski. >> i spent time in china with him and he invite mead to come over so we'll be doing germany

and england and sweden and we'll tell the virginia story and bring jobs from germany, england a swooe and sweden back. >> 5.7% lowest in the southeast, so we're very excited. we've been focused on bringing jobs and opportunities and it's working. >> what's happening? you're obviously working with the legislature and the entire government working. how -- why are you guys sitting at 5.7%? >> you know, there's a tradition in virginia to keep the fundamental strong taxes, and litigation, keep them low and we have great universities and we focused on economic development and a couple of things and we have $130 million for various incentives and tax credits. we focused on small business incentives and that's great, 71% or so with new jobs and i've been running around the country and around the world in asia and germany, telling our story ask asking businesses to relocate.

we've had a number of companies, northrop grumman, and becktel. >> you gars sitting at 5.7%. north nacarolina is over 10%. south carolina is over 10%. florida is over 10%%. there's a difference between virginia and everyone else in the south. >> there's something positive and optimistic about business -- >> look at him. he looks positive and optimistic. we do just the opposite. we realize that those dreamers and entrepreneurs can make a huge difference and make it easier on us if they do their job. obviously the proximity to washington, d.c., and the defense contract and the technology does make a difference. >> mika, what do you think of that? >> i think he's trying to get fairness into the system and some transparency and at the same time, i think he calls them out on some of the practices that have been a little difficult for this country.

fair enough? >> reforms were needed after the 2008 meltdown. some of those were needed, but i think a little bit more than that, mika, more of a sustained blame on wall street and business and others for the unemployment rate. i say if you're the commander in chief you have to take some responsibility. we're over 2.8 for 32 consecutive months. i don't think that's business's fault, i think it's the policies on business, deficits, debt that the president has put in place that's not helpful. i think we're doing a few things a little different and had a billion dollars in surpluses the last couple of years. i think there is a contrast and i think an executive can make a difference. >> not taking away from what virginia's done, governor, but -- comma, but would you argue the role of federal employment, particularly in virginia, the private sector plays a role in a formidable way? >> we're lower than maryland's, at 6.5 and d.c. much higher.

the surrounding states and lower in the southeast. most of the job growth in virginia has been private sector. it's not the public sector. some of it is defense contracting and i wouldn't argue with that, and some of the downturn in the defense spending and we've still seen growth not just in northern virginia and all over the state and a lot of it is finance sector, tourism, space and wine, and film. >> would you agree it's two wings of a plane? it's not just one private sector. the success in virginia should be a model for a more nuance conversation about what makes the economy work as opposed to kind of where things end up. >> i think that's right, but if you look at the combination, a lower tax rate would keep things low. a right to work state. great universities. we focused on research, positive about the incentives for business. it really is not one thing, and it's bipartisan. we've had republicans and

democrats working together on these initiatives and we just have collective success in it. >> governor, a recent gallup swing state poll shows that president obama has done extremely well and your state was polled here. in the last few weeks it's done very well amongst independent women. last year mitt romney was beating him amongst independent women and he's taken the lead by that and some polls as much as 14 points. how much do you feel that the invasive ultrasound abortion bill that was in virginia had to do with this phenomenon? >> the poll came out yesterday. the roanoke college poll showed mitt romney up by six points in virginia. i'd say the governor is doing pretty well and i predict he'll win the state. i think virginia overall reflects america which is generally split on the issue. i'm pro life. we embrace a culture of life. >> you did pull the legislators off and they were pushing. >> right, and you wrote about that, joe. >> it was a good move.

i just don't think that will help the women. >> my wife and my conservative pro-life wife who has never voted for a democratic president in her life goes what the hell's going in the republican party? you know we're in trouble. >> how did that one spin out of control? >> mika, we had 860 bells this session and one of them reached my desk on abortion and to say there was some broader trend is not the case. i think there is a majority pro-life legislator saying this bill is supported by republicans and democrats and at some point in the committee process i realized it was more than we should have. so i asked the legislature to make some amend ams and it was amended and i signed it. but nine states have a mandatory ultrasound. 23 states have some form of ultrasound. here's what i think, what women and men are mostly concerned in this election cycle are job, spending, energy, taxes, deficit, this is the issue to control. the majority of the people that

have been displaced over the last couple of years has been women from jobs. that's what they're concerned about the debt of their kids when they get out of college. i think while there has been some discussion of social issues in the republican primary on everything from abortion to contraception. these are issues that will come up. the fiscal issues are going to dominate and how people vote. >> let's talk about the top issue and that is how does a guy from my neighborhood, the redneck riviera, i'm seeing a green jacket behind you. a guy like bubba who has never taken lessons. do you golf? >> for 45 years, and not as well -- >> how many lessons have you taken in your life? >> not many. it's all been trial and error, and i've hit shots off of pine needles in the wood. >> you can't hook them 30, 40 yards. >> what a class act. i was rooting for him. i don't watch much golf on tv, but that shot out of the woods and the courage and fortitude down the road and keeping those

emotions in check until that tap-in and his mom coming up. what a marvelous moment in golf. >> you know what he'll do next is -- >> we know that was you. >> that was last night. >> how's donald? >> well, the donald, as you know, is one of the newest wine owners in virginia. >> he makes a good vodka. >> i didn't get any of that, but -- i tell you what he does make is some great wine. shameless martin o'malley from virginia gave you a jacket that was kind of tacky, so i brought you a wine and owner of the largest vineyard in virginia. so we're the fifth largest wine-producing state sadly behind new york and the west coast states, but we're coming up. we had a great wine reception at trump tower last night, so i've got you some of trump's wine to taste. >> i love it, governor. thank you so much. >> you see wine, i see jobs.

>> thank you very much. >> thanks, mika. >> he's wearing it. >> he's here with the jacket, baby. >> he is, bubba watson is next on "morning joe." all right. >> thanks!

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no,

i told dave that i wanted to announce the on sale on letterman and it was all set up and then bubba -- >> right. >> bumps me just because he win, like, a golf game. >> i don't get it. >> i take it as an affront, and if i see his general lee car. >> yeah. >> i'm going to tp it. >> did they explain to you what the problem was? >> well, the problem was that bubba doesn't like america. >> right. >> he's against america. >> right. >> you know that bubba's real name is hyman fleischmann? >> no, i didn't. >> here he is joining us now. >> hyman fleischmann. >> aka, bubba watson. they're explaining this whole thing. it's fascinating. >> it kind of brings me back to june 27, 2010, the first pga win you had over corey pavin.

s that amazing. >> just stop it. she knows nothing about golf. did that just happen? that happened. >> you know the thing, bubba, i was rooting for you because i'm like you, from the redneck riviera and i thought i was the only one jumping up and down and screaming. you had so many people across america that aren't from a place called baghdad without the h, right? >> exactly. >> they were cheering for you, and i started -- tiger and so many other people just can't believe your game and no lessons. >> no lessons. the people can't comprehend no lessons. they can't comprehend nobody helping you. they can't comprehend knowing all of that much, it's hard to move the ball left and right, right and left, and i kept defying the odds, you know. if my career ended today it would be a pretty good career and it would have been pretty fun. >> you know what? >> i would like to announce i'm going to run for president or

vice president with the governor if he -- >> exactly, you get all of the wine you need. >> so, obviously, you broke down on 18 after you won and a lot of people said obviously, and i remember davis love iii when he won and he was talking about his dad. your dad was there on the 18th, wasn't he? >> yes. for sure. for sure. that's a -- it was just -- it was crazy. my dad got to go to augusta once before he passed away. it was just -- it was just an amazing experience to see him there that one time. the first time i ever got to augusta there for the masters and we didn't say anything, we just hugged and cried and cried and kept crying. seeing some of the fellow golfers there watching me finish up it was just an amazing experience. >> that was one of the more impressive things, the fact that you had other guys who you played with and who you earned

it there on the tenth green to share your victory, but there was something else, in that game, your game, golf, which is for three or four years had been tiger's, is he up or down? where is he? you put a smile on the face of golf in the united states and part of the reason you put a smile on the face of so many people is you're a left-handed golfer, you're off in the rough and every 16 or 18 handicappers, i might as well take the shot, what could happen? and you take the shot and it's, like -- >> but he makes it. >> an incredible shot. how many times can you make that shot? >> i would say a few times. a lot, because i'm used to the rough. i'm used to hitting a tree, but growing up in bagdad, pensacola, florida, i'm used to all of that, but the shot wasn't as tough as it seemed for me. >> by the way, there's our local paper, "the news journal,"

bubba, the master. >> it was a shot i'd done it many times and it was never for tv and never for the masters. i was so focused on that moment and what i had to do, and i saw where he put his second shot and i knew it would be tough up and down, and i knew that i could maybe win the masters and it turned out to be 15 feet from the hole which was incredible, which surprised me, but hitting it on the green was easy. getting it that close was the hard part. >> what was so funny is i asked him, the course he grew up in was tangowood, right? >> tangowood. not a lot of people say courses in the redneck riviera are too fancy for me. speaking of golfers, he's got a lot of friends and they don't sit ideally by. >> no, they have a boy band. here's a little bubba. ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> those are nice overalls. ♪ ♪ >> that's great. you were having fun out there and, by the way, i had to buy this. you got yours for free. we talked about this. joe and i did it, so yours is a little bit nicer. >> but you have a relaxed personality in that video. i heard a few urban legends about you. we heard the last four places that you want to have your masters meal was chipotle, in and out burger, lexington barbecue and the waffle house? >> for sure. >> you won the masters and that's what you want for your augusta meal. >> well, yeah. it's what i want, it's not what everybody else wants. i like my grilled cheese from waffle house, and chipotle, love

the burritos there and any of those things would be great, so -- >> and i also heard that you've never bought a suit. >> i haven't. i've never bought a suit. >> do you own a suit today? >> yes. i own two suits from the ryder cup and the president's cup. >> so you've never gone to a polo or men's wearhouse and gotten two suits from the most prestigious tournaments? that's how you won your suits? >> yes. >> you went to milton. >> that's where my dad graduated milton high, the panthers did you play the same golf course? >> boo is five and a half years older and heath slocum is five years older. they were just out when i got in there. >> speak of the ryder cup, boo made us all part when he had the great drive and drove his driver down like a horse. >> you mentioned that you're doing a charity event in pensacola on july 2nd for

service members and that your dad was a green beret. tell us about your dad. he put a golf club in your hand for the first time? >> for sure. mom made him. my mom said the only way he could play golf is if he takes his son. for me, seeing my dad go to the masters, cheering on his son, and the way he raised me. the way he raised me as a son, as a man, he probably could care less now about me with the golf. i know he's probably watching from heaven, but -- probably the man is more important to him than the masters championship. >> he did a good job.

>> and you're a father yourself now for the first time. >> yeah, for sure. six weeks old, little caleb back home. hopefully when he gets old enough to realize what tv is he'll see that -- he'll see that his dad really cared for him as a new dad cared for him, with all of these articles and all these things and these tv shows he sees that i talk about him and love him dearly. >> will you put a club in his hands? >> as soon as he starts gripping and walking and starts banging stuff around the house. >> so your mom -- you should give your mom half of the purse because you're only good at golf because you're not leaving the house without taking little bubba with with you. what does it mean to your mom? or is it the same as your dad, does she care about the man. >> when we cried in her arms, we

just cried. it meant so much for our family and meant so much for our friends and the fellow golfers that were there. you know, the win was about everybody that's influenced me and you're from pensacola, i've known about you for eight years. >> i'm sorry about that, but you worked through that. >> it's made me be a better person and not be like you. >> right. exactly. >> i'm going to hear about that at home for a long time. thanks, bubba. >> no, it's just all of the people like i said earlier. boo weekly, watching to be like them and another golfer from that area, all my teachers from high school, all my teachers from college. just all of the people that influenced me in the right direction. >> isn't it amazing? you look in the pensacola area, you're from there, emmett's from there, jones is from there, of course, alabama had a pretty darn good runningback with richardson and then derek brooks. derek brooks, such a great,

decent man and jerry pate. >> jerry pate. >> a pretty darn good golfer himself. it's amazing what comes out of that area. >> it's craze. it's a wild thing to think about all these golfers. you have five golfers, six golfers in that area that played on tour. >> bubba, thank you so much. >> did you actually buy the two sets you have or were they given to you? >> they were given to me. on the same lines i've wondered if anyone's offered to cut your hair. >> what are you talking about? >> come on, delilah. keep it to yourself. >> you say no, i like my hair. >> i do like it. my wife wants me to get it trimmed all of the time. >> see? i told you. >> delilah -- >> i used to have hair like that. live free. >> you could use a trim. >> thank you for being you. >> and congratulations, congratulations especially on your new child. we're all proud of you, and i

guess we'll see you back in l.a., lower alabama on july 2 understand. >> we'll be watching. bubba watson, thank you. we'll be right back. t there. t there. - one serving of cheese is the size of four dice. one serving of cereal, a baseball. and one serving of fruit, a tennis ball. - you know, both parties agree. our kids can be healthier... the more you know. [ male announcer ] 1 in 6. that's how many struggle with hunger in america. ♪ but what if there was a simple way to feed those in need? now there is. just buy select brands at walmart's low prices during april

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getting back on track was easier than i thought. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. i guess you're a fan now of bubba. >> i think he's very sweet. >> what a winner. what a refreshing change from so many of our athletes. what a refreshing change. >> talking about his dad. and you could tell he was, like, my dad wouldn't care about the masters. he'd care about the man. >> he's grounded and he's not going anywhere from that. >> you know who is not grounded. >> he's crazy. >> ryan schachtman.

>> he gets a job on tv and he lets it go to his head. >> oh, my gosh. >> he is upset. brian, what will we do about the red sox? we need a hostile takeover. >> oh, i don't even want to start. i'm going friday for opening day. all my friends are telling me just write off this season. what i wanted to say about bubba, authentic, i covered pro sports for years, and to see authentic and sincere emotion is refreshing because i'm pretty cynical about sports. so that's a cool thing. pretty cynical on the markets and looking for decent segways here. yesterday, we're bouncing back by almost triple digits today, though i will say guy, the futures were weakened a little bit since import and export prices came out just a few minutes ago showing a pretty big spike and it shows the pressure that oil and gas prices are having on pricing, and right now we're bouncing back, but not enough to make up for yesterday's losses. >> all right, man.

you will have a rough week. you'll be at fenway on friday, and it can't get better than that. thanks a lot. >> thanks. >> we may win a game one of these days. >> maybe. we'll be right back.

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some major election news, you guys. today in gettysburg, pennsylvania, rick santorum officially dropped out of the republican race.

[ cheering ] >> gettysburg was a great choice because he should have dropped out four score and seven years ago. ♪ ♪ time for your business travel forecast. i'm meteorologist bill karins. only a few travel trouble spots. we'll have a shower in the northeast and that will be the exception more than the rule. detroit and chicago after a cold start, a nice afternoon. all of the wet weather and troublesome weather is in the west coast, rain in seattle and even in l.a. omnipotent of opportunity. you know how to mix business... with business.

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joe." and it's time to talk about what we learned today. >> i learned a great deal about virginia -- the virginia economy and that donald trump is now a winery owner. >> yeah. >> in the commonwealth of virginia and james madison is spinning in his grave. >> i probably said donald trump. what did you learn? >> i learned that i am today, several days after the conclusion of the masters even happier that bubba watson won the masters because i met bubba watson and he's as genuine and nice an athlete that you'll ever meet. >> very nice. >> what a great guy, and i learned that i'm rude. hey, honey, not picking on you and you were talking over mika again and it came arc cross pretty bad. >> and in trouble. >> what time is it? >> it's time for "morning joe