good evening. i'm chris matthews. in washington leading off tonight, sweet carolina. you like season operas, then you love the details in the john edwards court case today. the prosecution's star witness andrew young told how he concealed his affair with retail hunter. what edwards did to keep his presidential dreams alive. that's if you believe a word with it. we have the latest. also a first of its kind look at who mitt romney might pick at his running mate. each candidate addresses a particular problem romney may have. but here's the bigger problem. doesn't all this suggest that romney has a lot of problems? plus one reason barack obama won information years ago is that voters aged 18 to 19 came out in big numbers and he won two-thirds of them. but enthusiasm among young voters is obviously down and that's why the president is now

making his big pitch to college students today. and if you've been listening to the republican candidakand dant president, you'd think the country is wide open to illegal immigration. the fact is he hasn't. the total number of mexicans living illegally in the united states right now is actually down a million. and that report comes just as the supreme court is about to take up arizona's anti-illegal immigration law. finally, let me finish tonight with the utter failure of our country to deal with either debt or long term immigration problems. we begin with the trial of john edward, however. melinda as been covering the trial. will this is in many ways aed sad story. a sad story of a marriage coming apart, of deception, of infideli infidelity, of cheating, also of money laundering. what happened today in the testimony, what did you hear in the testimony of andrew young, the star witness for the

prosecution? >> well, when you say it's in many ways a sad story, that's so true. just to see john edwards' elderly parents sitting behind him, supporting him even now as they always have throughout his life, you can't not feel it for the family. andrew young as a witness today just seemed to me like a nightmare witness. i mean, so many inconsistencies, internal inconsistencies even in what he was saying. for example, saying john edwards did not want to know a thing about the scheme to keep the money flowing to his pregnant mistress. and yet because he wanted to preserve his viability, because he allegedly thought he was sure to become a vice presidential choice or maybe attorney general, and then on the other hand, he says he was involved in every single aspect of, you know, this plot to keep his

candidacy alive by funneling this money to ray he wiielle hu. the one thing that came across as ringing true was when he said because john edwards has always said that it was andrew young's idea to claim paternity and when andrew young describes the scene in great detail of john edwards coming to him will, he says he took the cell phone call when he was at the petsmart buying a turtle aquarium for his kids an starts grifing the stump speech, this is bigger than all of us, this is about america. and andrew was also i thought very believable on the point of his own motivations in this. he said, you know, of course i wanted my friend to become president of the united states. that would mean a lot of good benefits for me. and that really did come across as quite believable. >> let me go to hampton on the point by point here. what did you think of prosecution established today in

terms of the claim by then and of course by the star witness that john edwards, will that won back in 2004, coming in second in the iowa caucuses for president, how he was able toth back in 2004, coming in second in the iowa caucuses for president, how he was able to spend money he got from people, using that money according to prosecution to cover up the favor, cover p tup the child ouf wedlock, and how he's doing all this as part of a campaign except chur? how successful were they today? >> well, they didn't lose ground today. but you this was i think in many ways a win shsh w/win. andrew young backed up not just by his word which has a lot of credibility issue, but by documents, checks, bank account statements, was able to put john edwards in the middle of the plot to keep the affair private. and in many ways today was an audio version of the politician.

but andrew young helped john edwards in three key ways. one, he made clear that bunny mellon wanted nothing in return. two, he made sure mellon was told that these expenses were for personal matters, not political. and, three, andrew young said john edwards told him time and time again this was perfectly lawful. so andrew young may have made out the government's case, but he also helped john edwards. >> that's what i'm wondering about. it sounds like he made the case against the prosecution by saying this isn't a political expenditure. and this wasn't intended to be such by the one who gave the money, bunny mellon, the wealthy heiress. more was it described as such. it was simply a way to pay a family expenditure to keep a family problem secret. >> yes, i think it's all going to turn on how much you believe the part of andrew young's all over the map statements that says, you know, this was in john's mind a way to keep his

campaign viable. that this was very crucial to his campaign because he had even after he suspended his campaign some kind of idea that he was bound to be as i said vice president or attorney general. i do think there was something for both sides today. but it was, you know, he was not -- as i said before, i mean, the judge was annoyed with andrew young. she kept saying can you slow down. he looked like a guy -- he was revising his earlier statements. in his book, he said that the money only started going to rielle after she became pregnant. today he said the money came before that. so the judge was annoyed. the prosecution was annoyed with him. the process prosecution kept saying that's not what i asked you, sir. so it was not a great day for the prosecution. >> lelizabeth edwards was a

beloved figure. she was in fact a very supportive wife, a very likeable person, very intelligent, certainlies as intelligent as her husband and yet she was the one who who was cheated spoken and died of cancer. in the mid ths st of all of thiw did her personality lay in that courtroom? i notice they decided to have only seven women out of the 16 jurors. what was that about in terms of her, late elizabeth edwards? hampton. >> to my mind, elizabeth edwards has come off worse this game change or the politician, other chronicles about this 2008 campaign than she has in court today. there's plenty of trial left. i think this is still a trial about john edwards and andrew young. one issue for the government is andrew young says he had concerns about the legality of

this scheme. but an crew young is no lawyer. he never took the bar, he never passed the war. and edwards has former federal election commissioners ready to testify that what did he was not a crime. >> i thought it was interesting that on the jury, yes, there are seven women who were in the pool, but they were on the panel or will be alternates, but none of help are anywhere near to the age elizabeth would be today and i thought that was very interesting that they let left that dem grachk ophic out of thy pool. but elizabeth did not come across that well here. she always claimed she only knew there was a one night stand, she was really in the dark. and what we're hearing in this, it's clear from the voice mails that we heard today from john edwards, that she heard about a

lot of this at a lot of different steps along the way. that not only was it there's knowing and there's knowing, but she discovered many things about his relationship with rielle hunter as time went on. and that she seems to have been, you know, at one point the lawyers were even saying, you know, one of the main reasons he was out there is because elizabeth wanted to campaign so much. and it really did paint a picture of elizabeth being more involved than we thought. >> hampton, i he wouldn't get a key point about this guy. the reason john edwards had a chance of being president, the reason he was a senator from north carolina,e eshe wasabl he win over jurors.

and he was the good looking guy who was attractive to the jurors in many ways because of his style, his charm. it seems like all that has been thrown into reverse. he's now seen as the cad, the guy who messed around on his wife, who cheated on her, key seefed her, then tried to run for office while paying off the living cost of a child he had out of wedlock. paying off the girlfriend, if you will. is that in fact the context, the box this trial came in in north carolina for those jurors? the personality of john edwards. >> you're absolutely right, chris. i saw it firsthand as john edwards really sold himself convincingly as the son of a mill worker for the first time when he said it back in '97 and '98 as he won that senate seat. the question is can john edwards, the man with the mistress, the man of private jets and posh hotel, can he connect with this juror. and that's still an open question.

but one thing you'd appreciate is today was about unreported campaign flights, pot fnot for candidate which really is a problem, but for people who had no relationship towards getting votes. they could have cost edwards votes, but it seemed like is surreal scene when we're talking about flights for people other than the candidate. >> it was very interesting, too, as you were saying about his ability to charm this jury, it's interesting to me that he's making no attempt now to even try and charm the jury. he doesn't really -- he's very involved with his defense attorneys. but he is not even trying to work on contact with the jury and i think that's probably a wise decision on his part. >> melinda, keep an eye on it. i've always been curious about his appeal any way. thank you melinda and hampton. coming up, who is mitt romney going to pick as his running mate? back to real politics.

he's got lots of holes. i'm not saying it's a titanic, but takes ship wiit is a hip wi it. a latino, a woman, a roman catholic or perhaps swron from the hard right? he has a lot of choice here because he has a lot of problems. this is "hardball." not in this economy. we also have zero free time, and my dad moving in. so we went to fidelity. we looked at our family's goals and some ways to help us get there. they helped me fix my economy,

the one in my house. now they're managing my investments for me. and with fidelity, getting back on track was easier than i thought. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. brand new poll numbers and what the dnls hope will be a battleground state. let's check the scoreboard. first in new hampshire, president obama is up, believe it or not, 51% 41% in what we thought would be a very tight state. a nine point lead, the same lead he had in 2008. how arizona state, democrats have long hoped they can sflip and the president is close there. a new arizona state university poll has romney up 42%-40%, but so tempting for the dance. we'll be right back. ree-credit-s gonna direct you ♪ ♪ to check your credit score before it gets too late ♪

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there are 231 delegates at stake tonight with primaries in connecticut, delaware, new york new york, pennsylvania and rhode island. but mitt romney's already looking beyond primary season of course. case in point, the search for a running mate which officially began last week when the campaign named long time romney aide beth myers to head the process. last night "the daily show" had fun with the many perspective candidates who seem to be saying they aren't interested. >> do you pass on the job, at least recommend someone else to fill. >> we have a lot of really talented people out there that mitt romney will get to pick from. senator rob portman would be phenomenal choice for vice president. >> see? that's all right. har company rubio says rob portman's your guy. i don't know who that is. let's see what he has to say about it. >> romney/portman, does it have a ring to it? >> i think rubio has a better

ring. >> why does being romney's vice president now seem like a dare nobody wants to take? >> like in high school. dares go first. of course denying your interest is pretty much pro forma these days. so what is mitt romney looking for? a running mate? many of the names tossed around seem to help him with some of his biggest problems. be it latinos or young voters or his own conservative base. let's take a look at some of the possible veeps with chuck todd and major garrett. gentlemen, let's start with you, sir, chuck. let's start with the one here. >> the only true gentleman on the show. >> i keep hearing this from the right. i don't hear it from mainstream journalists like yourself. they say rubio. i keep hearing it from the right wing guys, they say rubio. where do you stand? how does it look? >> i tell you i think he excites the base. the intellectual conservative

base in a way that i think none of the other candidates being talked about do. numb twer two, clearly the idea he trying to help on the latino front makes rubio a prime player. and i think his youth is helpful. there need it is to be the republican party needs to show a generation al shift. that's why the idea of either a paul ryan or a marco rubio does that.al shift. that's why the idea of either a paul ryan or a marco rubio does that. the down side, has really been through the scrutiny that you go through and you want to do that with somebody that went through a relatively easy race once charlie crist got chased out. >> for hugging obama. talk about a freudian slip. last week, major, you were interviewing marco rubio as we saw about the possibility he would be vice president. and he said something rather revealing programerhaps. let's listen.

>> three, four, five years from now, if do i a good job as vice president -- i'm sorry. if i do a good job at a senator instead of the vice president, i'll have a chance to do all sorts evof things. >> you do you what do i, try to get them all screwed up. he said if i spend the next three, four, five years as doing a vice president. >> i was accused of doing jedi mind tricks. >> the secret racing stripes? >> i don't think so. and i don't think romney will pick rubio. as far as anyone can possibly be on the wlim, i said he'll pick rob port than. >> rob portman is the senator from ohio. state republican. historically must win to win the presidency. here's how one republican state cha chairman described the appeal of rob portman. he was born to be the guy

standing next to the guy. he's the type of guy who ran for vice president of his high school student council. go ahead, you first. >> whatever you think about rob portman, i make the case on a couple of levels. one, twice senate confirmed. what does that mean? ustr, u.s. trade representative and budget director. that means his fbi file is known to all who care. which means he will be noncontroversial and will not slow the romney campaign down if they pick rob portman. what is crucial for romney is to pick a vice president that checks several boxes and then he moves on as the alternative to obama. he cannot afford two or three weeks about who his running mate is. which i think he would invite with rubio, christy orr any of the more charismatic possible choices. >> wouldn't they be more like two puddles of water rather than a spark? >> i said in my column it would be squares sca s squared. true. but that's the essence of romney. and trying to xwragraft on to t tree charisma only highlights

the fact that he's honest ca charismat charismatic. >> when you go for ice cream, he asks for a double vanilla? chuck. >> i thought major was just about to bring up a ticket that i was going bring up, that did just this. al gore was have a mill la. and bill clinton needed a little vanilla. but he also wanted the generational change and he was doubling down on what they thought was his most appealing element, the idea of generational change. let me tell you another thing that helps on portman. the other part of this process. whether it's fair or not, it's a fact. the running mate will get judged against sarah palin. the question, is it for a day, a week or a month, this whole cloud that she leaves over the process. >> absolutely. >> if you put sarah palin, and i said this earlier today, if you put her in a program computer

and said give me the exact opposite of sarah palipalin, yo would get rob portman. >> let's take a other options. jeb bush might be popular with conservatives. but george will spend this weekend, the issue with the bush brothers. let's take a watch. >> if jeb bush is to be romney's running mate, it would mean that in seven of nine presidential elections, there would be a bush on the republican ticket. and it gets hard to argue that we're not a tribal society at that point. >> what do you think of that? chuck, just too many -- another problem for jeb who i like is he would have to defend his brother's administration. and he'd be like a voodoo doll. anytime you said anything against w, he would have to depend him. >> i think it's a little bit of a negative for portman by the way is his service in the bush administration as budget director on the item they want to do. but on jeb, if you want to look at hispanic voters, i would make

the argument that jeb bush could help romney more with hispanics than marco rubio. >> i just think bush is the george will problem, it's too much bush. if you're going to go florida and h and hispanic, go rubio. >> let's talk about more interesting candidates. chris christie and condoleezza rice who has a little bit of buzz on this. you first, chuck. these are very interesting picks. they would dazzle the country. >> they would. and you would have an issue of overshadowing the candidate in a chris christie. let me focus on condi and this is that issue of i think romney would really like to pick a woman running mate. i think it's not fair to the other women running mates that they'll get held to a sarah palin -- >> condi wouldn't be. >> that's right. she's a political persona before

anybody had heard of sarah palin. she's completely politically formed, if you will. now, what's the down side? it is the fact that you might be relitigating some thing wills in the bush years. and do you want to do that. but i think if you really believe he needs to fix his problem with women, and i tell you, condi rice would be safe and could help on that front. i just think she's a long shot. no doubt. i don't think -- she's never been in elect difference politics and that is a draw back for anybody getting into this business with just three months notice. but i think she is an in-retriig way that romney could really use. >> i think so, too. ed rollins said she would be a better pick for senate. >> mitt romney will have serious governing issues and they're all economic. condoleezza rice offers nothing particular will in either communicating to the house or the senate or getting votes or working the system to help him on economic or trade issues.

that's why i think he'll go for someone like rob portman because economy is crucial. chris christie offers no reassurance whatsoever to social conservatives. he's bad on guns, he's bad on abortion, he's bad on the whole front -- >> how is he bad on abortion? >> because's pro-choice. >> he's pro-life. >> he has a complicated history and i don't think he offers any reassurance to social conservatives and romney already has problems there. >> i agree with you on portman. portman is doubling down in the fashion by the way of bill clinton and it worked. >> paul ryan would be the same. you could argue the same thing. >> carry as lot of weight, carry as lot of baggage. you have to defend every element in that ryan plan. >> he has to do that anyway. might as well have the guy who is better than defending it frankly. >> do you have a pick, chuck? >> i think it's a short list of portman, i think you'll see a

woman that gets seriously vet. my gut is kelly and i on the take out of new hampshire and tim pawlenty. i think he would love to put a mid western governor on the ticket.pawlenty. i think he would love to put a mid western governor on the ticket. there is no sitting governor that makes a lot of sense, but becau pawlenty may make sense as a former. >> thanks. it's only april. by the way, only thing interesting about romney right the way. by the way, polls close in four of tonight's primary states. nbc will have full complete results here on msnbc and we'll be giving them to you throughout the evening. up next, as mitt romney decides on a running mate, wait until you see rudy giuliani's diagnosis what have went wrong with sarah palin. i don't believe a word. that's next. recently, students from 31 countries took part in a science test.

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back to "hardball" for the side show. first up, it's the one mitt romney story that stood the test of time, the dog on the car roof story. so romney's people have come up with a counter attack. here's stephen colbert. >> the romney campaign has found an obama dog story even more damaging. listen to obama's own voice describe food his stepfather fed him as a small child in in-dough feez i can't. >> away from the dinner table, he was some duintroduced to dog meat, tough, snake meat, tougher, and roasted grass hop er, crunchy. >> from his best telling book, dreams from my father or dog flaet my stepfather. i believe anything that president obama did at a ten-year-old is the same as romney did as an adult. and i have found a explosive photographic evidence that he supports pirates.

someone has to help that woman. call s.e.a.l. team 6! >> they dug up the history of the president's dogs. here's lbj with his dog jamged him picking him will up by the ears. that sparked outrage. as the presidential candidate, richard nixon gave his highly successful checkers speech. nixon had won big by saying his dog checkers was a gift and his family wasn't going to give him back is for no matter what those big shot critics said. the best dog story of all was when republicans attacked fdr for giving his dog falla a free ride on a maef ship. his speech one of the best in history, helped win him a fourth term. finally, rudy giuliani has come out with his endorsement of mitt romney yesterday. despite the fact that he's had harsh words about romney over the years. and this morning, rudy weighed in on the veepstakes of the last election. what does he say would are have

help willed sarah palin? >> that person should be selected early.are have help willed sarah palin? >> that person should be selected early. by the same sarah palin got to the debate, she was a heck of a good candidate. if she had had three months to prepare, you you would have seen sarah palin of today. do you two months of preparation, a difference. >> what an idiotic conversation that was. do you believe either side of that conversation? rudy giuliani really believes that three months would have changed everything. i don't believe a word he said. up next, back to school. i don't believe he believed it. back to school. president obama goes back to college, hitting flthree in two days. young voters came out in record numbers four years ago, but are they as enthusiastic this time? apparently not. ow the average ps more than 50 times a day? so brighten your smile a healthy way with listerine® whitening plus restoring rinse. it's the only rinse that makes your teeth two shades whiter and two times stronger. ♪ listerine® whitening...

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this is your cnbc market wrap. with the dow gaining 74 bearely hanging on to the 13,00 mark, nasdaq down by 9. positive earnings reports from at at&t, 3 m hoping to boost stocks. new home sales slid by 7.1%, but that was not as bad as economists were expecting. and then of course after the bell, apple reported second quarter earnings that far exceeded expectations sending shares up in after hours trade. and that is it from cnbc first in business worldwide. now back over to "hardball." back to "hardball." president obama hit the road this week as he visits colleges in key swing states to press for

congress to act on student loans and avoid a jump in interest rates for over 7 million students. those rates will go up this summer by double. the youth vote is essential to the president's path to victory and there's both good and bad news on that front. the good news, obama leads mitt romney among voters 18 to 34. that's pretty hefty. by convincing 60%. the bad news, voters in that age group i mentioned don't have as much zeal about voting this this time as they it four years ago when 63% considered themselves highly interested four years ago gee, today that's down to 45%. with me two top political reporters. easily d easily distinguishable. a great factoid from you today. what was the key issue helping the president among young voters, was it the number of them that turned out or was it

the sweep with which he carried them? >> right. what i think a lot of people say, oh, well, the youth vote carried obama. and that's true. but it's a misnomer. >> you like it build it up. >> i do. >> you can't just answer my question. >> i'm trying to send my time to talk. in 2008, 18% of the electorate was 18 to 29. in 2004, it was 17%. so -- >> he didn't increase the balloon of voters. >> no but he won those 18 to 29 by 32 points. bill clinton i think came the closest, by 19. so he won them by such a big margin, it mattered more. >> in time around, he has to main maintatain 17% ors or 18%. >> and that's the message that they're carrying on the economy.

this is a message we see them carrying trying to get all the demographic, whether young people, whether in latinos. it's always about the economy. we saw him -- >> business solutions to the economy. >> that's right. it's all about -- >> business manager's perspective rather than politician's perspective. >> and you see obama doing very different things trying to reach these students where they live with the student loans. and also -- >> who is the only president this history to have a b-school degree? >> i don't know. >> w. the guy take took us to the worst economic class. by the other guy was the great engineer, hoover. he was really good. anyway, the president took a populous tone today at unc. we call it the southern part of heaven. he spoke with student loans reminding the audience of young people it wasn't so long ago that he was still carrying debt himself, student loans in fact. availed reference to mitt romney who never had a loan to go to college. i'm sure it was another shot. let's watch. >> this is something will michelle and i know about

firsthand. i didn't just read about this. i didn't read some talking points about this. i didn't just get a policicy briefing on this. michelle and i, we've been in your shoes. like i said, we didn't come from wealthy families. so when we graduated from college and law school, we had a mountain of debt. when we married, we got poor together. but we only finished paying off our student loans, check this out, i'm president of the united states, we only finished paying off our student loans about eight years ago. that wasn't that long ago. >> i don't think mr. romney robot could do that. >> no, this is vintage obama. he's got a little bit of the baptist preacher in this.

>> where did he learn that rhythm? he didn't go to baptist church. >> he went to baptist churches when he was in chicago and he'll probably highlight, too, polls show these young folks really value community service. you imagine that will be a big contrast between romney. he'll talk about his community service like he was -- >> by the way, did you see the numbers today? 15% of this country counting everybody in this country, everybody watching, have student loans outstanding. like one in six people watching still owe money to college. >> and i would point out, romney did a press conference yesterday with marco rubio and he came back at the end of the press conference and said, hey, just fyi, i assume the extension of these low interest rates. that is not -- >> take its down just for parents watching and students watching, it could balloon up to 6%, it's keeping down at 3%.

at unc, we wanted to get a college tour with the president. here he is with jimmy fallon of late night. pretty good stuff. >> ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the 44th president of the united states of america, barack obama. ♪ i'm so in love with you >> do you know mitt rom if i. >> >> i've met him. but we're not friends.if i. >> >> i've met him. but we're not friends. >> remember, that's the -- it went my ral hviral him singing . >> he can actually do the rainbow room. >> it this is important.

he is cool. mitt romney is not cool. >> let's not lean against romney. here is romney up in pennsylvania just yesterday. here's mitt romney, the candidate running against him. >> i fully support the effort to extend the low interest rate on student loans. there was some concern that that would expire halfway through the year. and i support extending the temporary relief on interest rates for students in part because of the extraordinarily poor conditions in the job market. >> you can dig it? i knew that you could. was that the least cool guy? >> very different from president obama. >> that's not putting on a show. >> and very different from president obama's testimony about his own experiences. >> i don't mean to say

pejoratively that mitt romney isn't cool. barack obama is, but -- >> i have to pick up on time. >> i think this cool factor, i think the kids would call it having swagger, is important to these young folks. they're not at the point where they're wearing t-shirts for barack obama anymore, but i do think they can identify. because he's a guy who fills out his brackets. >> we'll see. anyway, thank you. great to have you on. i read you all the time. up next, republicans want you to believe that illegal immigration is out of control under president obama. the trouble is it's actually not out of control. there are fewer legal i will grants from new mexico. which is really kind of counter intuitive given all the headlines. that's all hehead. this is "hardball." fondue tex-mex fro-yo tapas puck chinese takeout taco truck free range chicken pancake stack baked alaska 5% cash back.

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we're back for all the tlk from the right wing of course about all our poor border problems, the obama administration according to them has failed to tackle an every growing immigration problem. here's a surprising new report from the pew hispanic center. it shows that the number of mexicans living illegally in the united states is in serious decline. the number dropped from 7 million in 2007 to about 6.1 million last year. it's the first time in four decades that number has receded. immigration will remain a hot a issue this year. especially this week. the senate held a hearing on arizona's immigration law today. the tough new immigration law out there. the supreme court will hearing a umts on it tomorrow, and that's going to be hot. democrat from illinois sits on

the senate judiciary committee which is responsible for immigration and border control problems. senator, i will give you some time here. this, of course, one is of the most difficult questions we face in the country. anywhere near a solution, it was never given any teeth or had any enforcement power, what do we do here in terms of arizona, the alternative to arizona, and the long-term dealing with the issue. how's it look? >> first, let me tell you, i can understand the sentiment across the united states. frustration that we don't have an immigration reform law, and we need it. with millions in america undock emted. many have families that established themselves in communities and we need to come up with a and ittard that is the responsibility of congress and the president. some states are moving on their own. that the arizona story. i think what arizona's done is a violation of the constitution. the constitution is a supreme law of the land. the constitution specifies that the federal government has the

responsibility when it comes to immigration. and when it comes to the question of whether a state can supercede it or go around it, i don't think there's even any doubt. we'll find out what the supreme court thinks. the point i tried to make at the hearing today for russell pierce who was there, the author of the arizona law, is i asked him to take a look at six of his fellow arizona residents, all of whom are eligible for the dream act. all of whom are in college or have advanced college degrees. and i told each and every one of them could be arrested under his law. is that what his goal is? >> well, the question, just to be fair, the law, i went back and read it again this afternoon. the law said in the act of stopping someone from a criminal misdemeanor, a highway patrolman for example, they are deemed responsible to find out if someone is in the country legally or not.

should they check your -- should they look at your id card, driver's license and give it a special look if they think the personal is not here legally? should the police officer act like you are here legally or what? how would you like them to behave under the law. >> chris, i have the greatest respect for the police department. when they put the badge on their breast, they are literally ri risking their lives. for you, me and everyone else. that's where the arizona law is so troublesome. we the had chief of police from palo alto, california, ron davis, and he says the way the law is written in arizona, it is written to profile latinos. that something we shouldn't do in the united states. we shouldn't be calling people out and calling them over to the side of the road simply because they appear to be driving hispanic. the bottom line here -- >> that's not what the law says. the law said if they are badly driving, driving rk recklessly,

you can stop them and then ask. number three under provisions, you are not allowed to act according to a person's race, background be, ethnicity. that's what it says under the law. >> what we are also seeing under the law is is a requirement. subject to civil penalties. if a law enforcingment agency, police department doesn't enforce this law as written so there is pressure under the law enforcement agents to look for those who may be in violation of the law. what it says is reasonable suspicion that they are in this country illegally, undocumented. the arizona post, a law enforce amount that spells out detail, he says, this is what you ought to look for. look the a the way they dress. look at language, how they speak and determine with a wl that is part of the calculation. that is perilously close to profiling, if it isn't profiling. >> well said. dirk durbin, thank you for coming in. i see the problem you have with

the bill. when we return, let me finish with the failure of both parties to deal with two big issues. immigration and national debt. you're watching "hardball." hi, i just switched jobs, and i want to roll over my old 401(k) into a fidelity ira. man: okay, no problem. it's easy to get started; i can help you with the paperwork. um...this green line just appeared on my floor. yeah, that's fidelity helping you reach your financial goals. could you hold on a second? it's your money. roll over your old 401(k) into a fidelity ira and take control of your personal economy.

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let me finish tonight with this. i generally have faith in democracy to meet the purposes, what i fear it let me down is that it lacks the long-term challenges. big term debt and the night we

talked it, immigration. how can you call yourselves government if you can't keep your books. after all, these are fundamental. the gov everyonance and nation wood, aren't they? i look at the debt problem and i don't see the two parties getting together, o do you? i don't see them getting together after the election. to get control of the rising debt you have to reconcile spending and revenue at some point. otherwise you keep on adding debt, right? you have to decide how much you are willing to tax people and spend that amount, i think, don't you? or you have to decide how much you should spend and then raise revenues up to that amount, don't you? the arithmetic is easy. politics seems hopeless. the republicans, if they ran the entire government, would find it impossible because they would end up cutting programs like medicare with such brutality that they would cease to control government in the next election. i wonder if the public would put up with the tax level they might impose, don't you? so you've got a problem and it's

similar in immigration. put republicans in complete control of immigration, they might be draconian and start deporting people or putting so much economic pressure on them that they would, in governor romney's great phrase, self deport. would this society stand for people having lived here generations thrown out of country? would they? would democrats ever deal with immigration, would they ever put in effect real enforcement that stops the flow each night over the border? i wonder, would they ever do it without the political pressure of republicans pounding them if they didn't? i doubt it. so here eat problem. if either party can be trusted to solve these looming questions by themselveses, and if the two parties can't get together to solve them, when will the problems be solved? i've just given you the reasons for my fears. anyway, that's "hardball" for now. not nice to think about, but true pb up next, "politics nation" with al sharpton starts now. welcome to "politicsnation,"