blitz against the president. and not everyone is impressed. >> i thought it was a terrible ad. it made obama bigger than life. it made him to be the super celebrity which i don't happen to think he is. i think that it was a terrible ad by the republicans. i think actually if anything, when i first saw it, i thought the democrats put it out. >> well know karl rove, i guess you're fired.ç ♪ >> we'll get to the presidential race in a moment. we begin with a real fist thumping fight this week. the battle over student loan rates. and john boehner's 11th hour reversal to premotor a temporary extension of lower rates. wait for it, paid for by cuts to a preventive health care fund. and democrats had a few choice words for the sudden choice of

heart. >> using the student loan issue to drive their agenda. i fight that very cynical. i find that in part quite repulsive. >> their bill is a wolf in sheep's clothing. this is such a sad and sinister ploy. >> this bill is shameless. >> resorting to the trick bags. >> shifty indeed. >> shifty indeed. that is the bill that gained passage in the republican house this afternoon with the threat of a white house veto looming over it. the speaker, john boehner, accused democrats of rank h hypocrisy and blasted them for what he said is a fake fight. >> several months ago, you all voted the cut $4 billion out of this slush fund. when we passed the pay roll tax credibility. so to accuse us of wanting to gut women's health is not true.

and to pick this big political fight where there is no fight is just silly. give me a break. +tr&e both sides expressed frustration with much partisan hand wringing, it was the women of the house who slammed the switch with particular fervor and warped, >> i would say they have worked very hard to earn that gender gap. bit by bit, vote by vote, bill by bill, defund by defund and insult by insult. >> it's like they have rubbed two stones together and they're playing with fire. they ought not to do it. this prevention saves lives. saves money. unfortunately they came back with what seemed natural to them. let's take the money out of women's health rather than subsidies to big on it.

>> joining us now from capitol hill, congresswoman don i can't edwards, and the congressman from kentucky. if i can begin with you, speaker john boehner says that democrats are fabric it aing a so-called war on women. but how else do you understand an approach to this student loans issue whereby republicans want to fund it from health care resources? >> well, it's much more like a pump fake by the speaker. they've said to women on the one hand, we'll sacrifice preventive care or you can go to school and get a student loan. so i think the speaker protest as little too much. republicans took to this floor. they continue to do everything that they can to gut women's health care. and at the same time, they're saying the 7 million st]ddnts all across this country that your student loan rates, your interest rates will double by july 1st. it is really disgusting. >> congressman, given the major oil companies, bp, chevron, cone

oako, mobil and shell, made a trillion $1 trillion over the last decade, does it make sense to allow them to keep their subsidies and take away health care from women so that students can get loans at a reasonable rate? >> well, of course not. what this just shows, martin, is that the republicans are deficit when hawks and chickens when it comes to the elth withiest friends. they passed a tax cut for small businesses. $46 billion that they didn't pay for. the lion's share went to the top 3% of business owners in the country. so when it come to program that help humans, they're very stingy. when it come to benefits for their friends ask the very wealthiest americans, they're just wonderful. the crazy thing, when the speaker boehner talks about

hypocrisy, every republican voted for the bubble which raised the interest rate to back to 6.8%. they're already on record as being opposed to keeping this interest rate at 3.4%. so this is just a last gasp measure. they didn't want to go home and speak at commencements next week when there were people out there protesting. >> i guess, i don't want to tar you both with this brush butç congress can't agree on this, then what on earth will happen when it come to the debt ceiling debates in the future? this both terribly, doesn't it? >> well, i think it does. really what it points to is that republicans will go to no lengths to protect their wealthy friends to continue to give tax breaks to oil and gas companies and sacrifice the middle class. we are talking about middle class families. students who receive student loans, manageable and affordable stoonlt loans. here they are in april getting ready for graduation in june and

our high school seniors are not able to figure out with their parents what their package is going to be to put together a college education. >> congressman, i imagine you have constituents in that very position just as she was saying. >> absolutely. we have, i think the numbers are spg like 125,000 citizens of kentucky who have student lobes. this interest rate hike that if we don't act, will be about $1,000 a year on average to them. that's a lot of money coming out of the economy if they can afford to pay the higher rate. so this dramatically affects so many middle class families in my state and my district as it does across the country. >> why then do they all deny that there is a war on women when they would rather deny women access to important health care provisions, but keep subsidies for their friends in the oil industry.

if they're not, if there isn't a war on women, most of us must be ignorant. it seem that way.ç >> here they are, they basically guts this for women. many are young women getting ready to go to college that we're going to sacrifice your future. your ability to be competitive in a very competitive economy. and sacrifice women's health care. so it's not an accident. they mean these things. they mental when it they passed the republican romney-ryan budget. they mental it today when they decided to trade-off student loans and high interest rates for women's preventive health. >> congressmen, i have to wonder what republicans are thinking to play what seemed to be perilous politics with the health of women and the finances of young voters. aren't these two groups that mitt romney has trouble attracting, this is not sensible politics as we approach the

presidential election, is it? >> no. it's crazy. it is obvious that they recognize that they're hanging out on a political limb right now on this issue. or they wouldn't have acted in such a crazy way. to pick this kind of pay for, which dramatically impairs the health of women, of young children, keeps many seniors from getting the preventive care they need themselves could have chosen a lot of things. even forgetting the oil subsidies themselves could have gone after ag subsidies which wouldn't have provided the stark contrast to whose side they're really on. they're not on women's side and they're definitely on billionaires' side. >> thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. >> thank you. next,ç donald trump thinks karl rove failed in his attempt to stitch up the president. ♪ with or without bail ♪ get out his gun because he's shooting quail ♪ he'll never stop look at him ready to hop

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mitt romney is just staying the stage outside of columbus, ohio. this come hours after his party turns student loans and an affordable college education into a cynical house vote on himming health care and on a day the president spoke to troops in georgia addressing what he called the 9/11 generation. >> those of you who want to pursue a higher education and earn new skills, you deserve that opportunity as well. because higher education is the

clearest path to the middle class. >> it is the president's popularity with younger voters that still vexes republicans to this day. even an old hand like karl rove. his super pac's new ad, hitting the president for being a celebrity, is getting considerable blow-back. not because it is evil or mean but because it's so bad. take a look. >> oh, yeah! >> joining us now, richard ç wolffe. >> the blowback is such that donald trump in february of mitt romney was a delight. he called it one of the worst he's ever seen. what was your response? >> donald trump does know a thing about celebrity and he is overstepping the mark and i

think it is quite clear frg you're going after someone, then why go after that popularity? if i understand that karl rove might be envious and feeling inadequate when he looks at the president but it didn't work for the campaign in 2008 when they tried to do this. all they're saying is that he is popular. people like him outside of politics? is that a bad thing? >> trump is calling it among the worst he's ever seen. he make the point that the president brings out the worst in republicans. this ad just seems to make them seem petty, jealous, and that frankly, they don't have a candidate of their own that is similarly attractive. >> underscoring this is the general attitude that they think he is an amateur, incompetent and cannot do the job. so he is an imposter for them. that may be their true feelings. it shows the contempt they hold

the president is. it is not really a substantive attack on a presidential record. he is president of the united states. and he won it quite clearly, unlike maybe karl rove's boss did in 2000. he has every right to be there. why not go after him for his record. it misses the mark. it betrays theirç level of contempt and it underskoshs how this president is popular all around. >> there are ads in midwest swing states and hitting the president. take a listen. >> $2.3 billion went overseas while millions of americans can't find a job. $1.2 billion to a solar company that's building a plant in mexico. half a billion to an electric car company that created hundreds of jobs in finland. >> finland?

of all the indignities in life. to lose to finland? >> everyone loves the finns. i think it is great that conservatives feel that subsidies for corporation that's do business overboard are a bad thing. and so it would be great if they also closed the loophole. maybe even tried to stop protecting those businesses who want to now bring the profits back tax free that they got from overseas. there is obviously a lot of hypocrisy here. i think curious they think anything foreign is bad when it involves a corporation getting help from the obama administration when republicans are helping international companies overseas. that's okay. that's helping free enterprise. >> of course, we're watching mitt romney speaking in ohio right now. the president on this day of clashes has a new ad. it uses a mitt romney quote to all but come out and say, osama bin laden would still be alive if romney was president. here's the quote. it is not worth moving heaven and earth spending billions of

dollars just trying to catch one person. i mean,ç to your point earlier if they cannot attack him on policy and on could not ten, they have to attack on celebrity. that feels very weak to me. >> i'm sure mitt romney if he was in the situation room in those circumstances, i would like to think that he would have ordered the mission to go ahead. but the problem for mitt romney is that he has said everything about every subject on all sides. and he has a record out there. and yes, this was from his last run for president. this time is no different. this was a candidate, a likely nominee who said that libya was a mistake and now he's silent on it. his advisers think we should be helping the rebels in syria. there's no consistency on his foreign policy. the only consistent thing is that he hates everything that the president stabs for. and on some cases, he should just say, you know what?

it's not such a bad thing what this president has done on foreign policy. >> good luck on that. jonathan capehart joins us now. do you think the republicans are going to attack the president for using air force one and his time campaigning even though he went out to visit those strong tremendous men and women who have served this country? >> certainly. they're going to use any and everything as a criticism against the president. a little dicey when you start bringing the troops in in all this. and especially when the president is there talking to troops and talking about defending themç against folks from these for profit colleges who are preying on troops. preying on veterans. and one of the instances he talked about in his speech, preying on troop who have come back who have severe brain injuries and don't even remember

the courses they signed up for. so the public can attack the president for his use of air force one, pooh pooh getting osama bin laden but it is a very dicey situation when you start criticizing the president for saying something and doing things with the troops. >> again, to richard's point earlier. they seem to want to attack his celebrity. and yet when it comes to a constructive proposal, have we heard mitt romney come out with one in relation to the troops? for example, what the president has signed today to protect their interests? to protect their finances? particularly individuals who may have suffered traumatic brain injury. where is the positive constructive policy that mitt romney is offering? >> if there was one, we would be about it. that's part of the problem with romney rox. and especially with the republicans in general through this whole primary process. it has been about what the president has done wrong. what the president has, quote, failed at. and not a whole lot about where

they want to take the country. where does mitt romney want to take the economy vis-a-vis relations. the administration is already doing with regard to say north korea or what was going on in libya. and until mitt romney and republicans on capitol hill in general can start, until they startç talking about a positiv agenda under a republican administration, both here at the white house or their in capitol hill. until they can start talking about that. the american people won't have a lot to go on and the president is talking about real things. real accomplishments. there are some failures there but at least he has the record to run on. >> just remember, that mitt romney does have a swiss bank account. he does that offshore funds on the grand cayman islands. those are his two forays in

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and waded mopping his favorite friends, perhaps wondering what if. what if his success as an animal whisperer had carried over to the electorate? what if americans embraced his big ideas, a moon colony, child labor, the same way beasts what if primary voters saw the same strength that primates apparently do? but alas, this longest of long kisses good night is finally coming to an end. what's next for citizen newt? back to k-street? to tampa? perhaps breakfast as tiffany's. this much we know. the self-proclaimed tortoise did not win this race. the man who described himself as a bear, not an antelope, has finally fallen. may landing be soft, his third marriage long, and we'll look forward to seeing him in 2016 when he will no doubt pro claim -- >> you're going to be the nominee. >> i'm going to be the nominee.

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running in 2008 he spoke at the denver convention. you may recall he spoke in front of those greek columns. i don't think he'll be speaking in front of greek columns this time because he won't want to remind us of greece. butç he said at that point, he said we measure success differently, i guess he was suggesting, differently than republicans. he said we measure progress on the following basis. he said we measure progress by whether people are able to get good jobs that can pay for mortgages. that's one measure. over the last three and a half years, we've seen this economy shed jobs. not ad them. unemployment has been over 8% for 38 straight months. the president said if we let him borrow $787 billion, they would hole unemployment below 8%. has not been.

we're about five and a half jobs short. so on his own measure, he has been unable to get the job done. so he said you can tell if we're making progress by whether incomes are going up or down. over the last four years, the median income in america has dropped by 10%. $3,000 per family just to have during president obama's term. that's tough. particularly at a time when gasoline prices have doubled. when health care costs have gone through the roof. when food costs have gone up. this is a tough time for the american people. the combination of people out of work or under employed, median incomes dropping has meant a lot of families facing very difficult times. a lot of families that can be send kidsç to college. a lot of folks that wanted to start a home that cannot create a home right now.

you got retirees wondering if they can make ends meet. >> a scintillating friday afternoon on the campus there with the republican nominee. what a way to start the weekend. here are today's top lines. the week in review. >> citizens of earth -- >> is he conservative? >> he is about as conservative as you are, market. >> why does being romney's vice president seem like a dare? >> among the many good candidates, i think marco seems the best. >> i love you. >> there is a one in three chances we could lose. >> you're telling me there's a chance. >> when it comes to the national security of our president, i don't want equality. i want the best peel for the job. >> if mitt romney was in the room, what would you say? hi, mitt. >> mom and dad who never thought they would be on food stamps.

>> i'm not concerned that the very poor. >> i love that there are women out there who must go to work and they still have to raise the kids, thank goodness that we value those people. >> will you ever run for president? >> absolutely not. i've been first lady. >> osama bin laden is dead and general motors is alive. >> bla bla bla. >> does anyone have my last page? >> college is one of the best investments americans can make. >> i fully support the effort to sentence the low interest rate on student loans. >> i needç some talking points about this. >> going to be going to college next year and it's not cheap. >> i have a lot of memories of friends. >> i promise you the president has a big stick. >> we can always down on joe biden. >> you should listen to the president. >> that's what we do know. i think it is nuts-o. >> compare the two. >> yeah.

>> what's up, gangstas? >> let's get right to our panel. marcia dyson is a social activist and writer on spiritual matters. michelle is a news writer with the daily beast and we have strategist julian epstein. i want to start with you. i'm not sure if you were able to hear mitt romney speaking but i've been watching the tweets coming into the show. someone suggested that it could be a cure for insomnia. >> i don't know. we've talked about it on the show before. there is a personality deficit and i think there is a program deficit. if you look at what groups like american cross roads are doing by going after obama's celebrity. there is something very significant about what you hear from republicans and all their acolytes. they're not trying to draw a contrast between what the republicans want to do on the economy and what obama wants to do. they're not trying to draw a contrast between obama's record on foreign policy and bush's record. obama has turned around the

economy. rescued the auto industry. rescued the financial industry. he's gotten osama bin laden. all things the previous administration did not do very well at. and all things which romney has yetç to articulate a very, ver clear vision about. they're not trying to draw contrasts and they're going after these celebrity issues which really shows a lack of confidence. >> karl rove who made the ad seems to have given up on mitt romney. he has drawn up an electoral map. the blue states are romney. the red states are the president. by rove's assessment, romney, sorry, the other way around. and romney has little hope of winning. please don't take this the wrong way but is this an historic moment where you may find yourself agreeing with karl rove? >> i think that we have a long way to go to the election. but i think there's no question that the republican party is very nervous about the nominee that it is wining up with.

they know he has a charisma deficit. they know he doesn't fuel the pop list movement. if you want to complain about obama not connecting with peel, you need your own candidate who can. so they're left with romney and they're not exactly sure what to do with him at this point. >> we're watching him in ohio. it's not like the president is running away with this election. most of the polls have him ahead by only a few points. we've seen how wildly the polls can swing during this election cycle. do you think karl rove is actually maybe being a bit strategic here, warning republicans about being a little pessimistic? >> i think he is. when you look at the margin between them, i know you have to excite or incite theç popular base. i think what rove is trying to do is actually do that. when you look at the ads, which donald trump seemed to protest this time. you can see some fracturing

already within the republican party. this could be very good for president obama. at the same time we need to motivate our youth in which both candidates seem to be courting today to get a better turnout for the election in november. >> indeed. please stay with us. we want more than just one answer. a look at this weekend's white house correspondents dinner. stay with us. >> i stand by this man. i stand by this man because he stands for things. not only for things, he stands on things. things like aircraft carrier, recently flooded city squares. that sends a strong message that no matter what happens to america, she will always rebound with the most powerfully staged photo oms in the world. [ monica ] i'm away on a movie shoot and it hasn't been going exactly as planned. [ director ] cut. cut!

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and launch your dreams. for a hot dog cart. my mother said, "well, maybe we ought to buy this hot dog cart and set it up someplace." so my parents went to bank of america. they met with the branch manager and they said, "look, we've got this little hot dog cart, and it's on a really good corner. let's see if we can buy the property." and the branch manager said, "all right, i will take a chance with the two of you." and we've been loyal to bank of america for the last 71 years.

i tried to square that with the fact the number of leases on federal land for oil drilling had been cut in half under this administration. and the number of permits given to drillers has been cut by two-thirds. we're not drilling in anwar. there was a moratorium drilling in the gulf. not drilling in the outer continental shelf as we could. regulators have been trying to push themselves into the regulation of fractioning for natural gasps the charismatic mitt romney delivering another spell binding performance in front of a group of persevering students in ohio. we're back with our panel. marcia, the houseúaas just narrowly passed the student loan bill. but the white house is threatening a veto because republicans want to pay for the bill by cutting women's health care provisions. today, house speaker john boehner got rather animated over what he said was a manufactured controversy. let's have a listen.

>> now we're going to have a fight over women's health. give me a break. this is the latest plank in the so-called war on women. entirely created, entirely created by my colleagues across the aisle for political gain. >> if there is no war on women, why does romney want to defund planned parenthood? why is this attempt from taking funding from women's health care in order to cover the costs of keeping interest rates low on student loans? >> there is definitely a war on women and being being hit from the land, the sea and the air. we're big hit by the dirt of the old-fashioned notions of what is conception rights for women. reproductive rights them try to drown out our disenor complaints.

mostly they are dropping bombs from the right wing constituency base that women don't want to be educated well or how women are overtalking one another or this is not in existence, which is not true. last night i was at the woodrow wilson foundation and hillary clinton had to echo something 17 years later that she did in beijing, china. that humanç rights are women's rights and women's rights are human rights. if she has to say that again 17 years later, then we know that the battle is not yet ended. and also, for them to try to the herring of women, the student bill knowing the president would veto it. i think is really disingenuous of hill. he won't shed a tear for the women or the youth with you tear into the fabrics of their life by trying to put in the women's health along with student loans is disingenuous. >> marcia makes the point that the president may veto the student loan bill because republicans insist on paying for it with cutting women's health

care. exactly which voters do you think the gop is appealing to with that? >> well, that's a good rhetorical question. i think there are two points. i don't know. i don't know what the operative political theory is here. there are two points. when you start complaining about the terms of the debate as being unfair. i.e., the war on women. you have effectively lost the debate at that point. and i think that is true in this case with the republicans. secondly, when you have a 17 to 20-point deficit with women voters, the last thing you want to do. whether you think this issue is being portrayed fairly or unfairly. the last thing you want to do is give them red meat. the fact that they gave this provision where they'll pay for student lobes by going after things like screening of breast cancer, screening of cervical cancer, tells you it is the key stone cops in charge of the house which is great news for democrats. this is political ineptitude. >> final çthoughts?

>> i don't think there is an intentional war against women. i don't think there is any animosity here but there does seem to be a bizarre prioritizing going on for a party that does face a big gender gap. i'm not sure how they expect to combat that line with moves like this. >> thank you so much. have a great weekend, all of you. >> thank you. we have much more ahead. the best part of any great meal? delicious gourmet gravy. and she agrees. with fancy feast gravy lovers, your cat can enjoy the delicious, satisfying taste of gourmet gravy every day. fancy feast. the best ingredient is love.

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but that label can lead to prejudice and discrimination, and we don't want to go there. so let's try to see people for who they really are. you can help create a more united states. the more you know. the president spoke to u.s. troops in georgia and invoked his own grandfather in the g.i. bill to make the case for helping the men and women who so valiantly fight for this country. that sounds noble. but it may not be so easy when you consider the pitched battle going on in washington over something as seemingly bipartisan as student loans. >> there is absolutely no fight. people want to politicize this

because it is an election year. my god, do we have to fight about everything? >> enough to make you wonder if anything will ever get done other than saturday night's white house correspondents dinner, of course. let's bring in two men who never stop working. the silver fox, mike viqueira at the white house, and loud mouth luke russert on capitol hill. we looked it up and a gig in congress is nice work if you can get it. since january, the senate has worked for just 55 days. over in the house, it is even more relaxed with members there punching in at a mere 41 times in 2012. and next week, of course, they all leave town for another recess. with the notice here on capitol hill because they continue to feed us, but you touch on an interesting point, martin, which is they came off a two-week break for easter and çpassover were in action for two weeks and now they're off for another week

recess. they'll say, look, we're going for constituent work weeks, we're relating to real america getting outside the beltway, getting outside washington. a lot of democrats, specifically nancy pelosi, has said there's not enough work actually being done on the house representative side in the united states capitol. they want to do more. the republicans say, look, we do our job. the senate won't pass anything. >> right. mike, the student loan bill passed today, as you know, besides the president saying boehner and the republicans just don't get it. would it have passed if the president had not gone out to fight it so publicly, do you think? >> eventually it would have. perhaps not as quickly in the house of representatives, but it only passed the house of representatives today. the funding mechanism, as you have well documented on your program does not suit to taste the republicans or white house. this is one of those eternal crews of washington.

they'll push it right up to the deadline, but if they all agree, eventually they will hammer out some sort of deal. the question is when? i believe that student loan bill is expected to start in june. >> june 1st. the president went around the country and brought it up, and obviously mitt romney supported it. mitt romney hooking up with john boehner. they immediately got a bill to the floor in a span of three days after this became a national news story. look atç the coordination betwn the gop leadership and mitt romney. >> speaker boehner barely speaks to mitt romney, remember that? >> thanks so much, guys. if you'd like to see those two gentlemen in tuxedos, tune in tomorrow night for special coverage the white house correspondents dinner. that begins here at 10:00 eastern. we'll be right back to clear the air. [ male announcer ] if you have yet to master the quiet sneeze...

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can get a 2012 equinox ls for around $229 a month. it's time now to clear the air. and, unfortunately, on this occasion, i need to focus your attention on something that i said on this broadcast that has been willfully and maliciously misrepresented. something that is not only untruthful but also the complete opposite of what i had intended. it concerns a segment on the subject of the wives in this campaign, and here's how we began. >> part of mitt's selection strategy seems to be that he goes off and secures the billionaires and wins everyone else. is that right? >> we started from the premise that mitt romney's greatest asset, his finest advocate, is actually his wife. that the robotic awkward candidate is humanized by his

wife ann, and don't just take my word for it. listen to what romney himself has said. >> i wish ann were here, my wife were here, but i wish she were here to answer that question in particular. she says she's going across the country and talking with women and what they're talking about is the debt. this is a special treat for me to have ann with me. she isn't always with me on the trail. i hesitate to have her speak, because after you hear her speak, you won't want to hear mç anymore. >> now, during our segment, as a statement of fact about her personal history, i wanted to acknowledge that ann romney has known some very real suffering in the form of breast cancer and multiple sclerosis. we had already made it clear that mrs. romney was her husband's greatest asset. and i wanted to ask our studio audience if she could help close the gender gap since the president was so far ahead of

the female vote. this is what i said. we know that ann romney has had some suffering in the form of multiple sclerosis. she's also had some breast cancer. do you think he's intentionally using her to close the gender gap that krystal makes the point about, that the president is so far ahead with women. >> that comment sk taken out of context and being used to say that i said mitt romney is selling his wife's breast cancer and ms for votes. now, while i will accept it was not the most eloquent phrasing of a question, to suggest such a thing is such a complete bastardization of both my words and my intentions. i didn't say it and i don't believe it. what i did say was that mitt romney's wife has known ill health and that she is, according to the candidate himself, his greatest asset. both are true, neither is

controversial. and just one other thing. what those who chose to deliberately distort and misrepresent myç words may not know is that i grew up alongside a brother who was born with muscular dystrophy. tragically, the disease is fatal and it killed him. in the u.k. and a close friend of one here in the u.s., both working to beat muscular dystrophy. whatever you may have heard, i do not regard physical and mental illness as a political football for the cheap scoring of points, because i know personally the pain that such conditions bring to individuals and their families. so thank you for watching. and please do hang on every word that we say and not what others may say about us. dylan ratigan is here to take us forward. dylan, good afternoon. >> well stated, martin. have a good weekend, and the program begins right now. >> thank you, sir.

>> well, an exciting afternoon for you. a second report teaming up for the second half of the show. we begin with some election year politicking, this time the house pushing through a bill this afternoon. it's legislation looking to extend lower interest rates on student loans that were randomly teed up to get jacked during the middle of an election year. >> the yeas are 215 and the nays are 195. the bill is passed. >> seems a no-brainer, not to jack the tuitions on an ç overburdened debt-ridden youth population, but remember, we're dealing with a congress that just last year threatened to shut down the entire government rather than collaborate to solve anything. so if these guys are anything, they're consistent. the democrats want to pay for the rate