>> good morning from new york, i'm chris hayes. the secret service has implemented new rules. and human rights group china aids says activist is under protection in beijing. chinese officials have yet to comment. i want to start with my story of the week, the strange turn in the presidential campaign. something remarkable happened. something rare, even beautiful and even a moment of commemoration. mitt romney agreed with president obama on a substantive matter. as you probably heard on jimmy fallon slow-jamming the news, the interest rate is set to double this july as a law temporarily lowering them expires. congressional democrats led by congressman gary peters and the

white house are pushing for an extension of the lower rate. the republicans had expressed their views on the matter they've imposed. here's uba fox giving her two cents on the matter. >> i have very little tolerance for people who tell me that they graduated with $200,000 in debt or even $80,000 in debt. there's no reason for that. the direct aid the government gives to students to offset tuition by 1$170 billion. and just a couple months ago when asked about student loans, romney said this. >> i wish i could tell you that we could pay for everyone's education. that's just not going to happen. >> oh, yes, free money. we can't have that.

never mind the trill coons of dollars of mere interest loans the feds have made. but we all know students aren't too big to fail. there are enough political constitue constituent this week. >> i sue ported extending the temporary relief on interest rates for students as a result of student loans, obviously. in part because of the extraordinarily poor conditions in the job market. >> i suppose this counts progress. the bill extends the lower interest rate, but their bill pays for it by taking money from the affordable care act. that didn't stop the club from asserting that any student loan is bad policy and should be ended. but even if we do have a brief moment on interest rates, it

masks a much larger and deeper set of conflicts. there is a profound difference between the idea of a social contract and the reality of a society in which a four-year college degree remains out of the grasp of the majority of population. and the percentage has risen slowly and still just about only 30%. in 1980, it was about 20%. the trend of each subsequent generation of americans attaining more schooling than their parents is grinding to a halt. as of 2010, college tuition had increased nearly 600%. much of the rising cost that

educate the majority of students. states that cut support for each full-time student by 26% since 1909. as tuitions rise, students must take out more debt to pay for those rises in tuition, now we have a total of $1 trillion of outstanding debt. and that debt is growing at a rate twice as fast as mortgage growing was growing during the housing bubble. higher education is a public good that everyone agrees is valuable and essential for both individual flourishing and social health. for everything in our political culture, we don't spend that much public money on it. what we do spend, like so many other areas of policy hidden largely in a tax code. it's a debt which further fuels tuition increases.

the various ways the tax code subsidizes higher education and the total cost was about $23 billion a year. this ch is in the middle range of estimates of what it would cost to make higher education free. part of the reason that bachelor degrees have made a relatively verified commodity is that we have failed to conceptualize part of it like a fully righted citizenship. student debt is a symptom as much as it is a cause. i want to bring in my guest, goldie taylor. michael hastings, author of the wild and terrifying inside sources, which i have to say is a phenomenal read on the show. it's really fantastic book. he's also a buzz feed corresponde

correspondent, a rolling stone picturing editor. it must be your new favorite web site. i guarantee it. and the pod cast, which is sahh fantastic pod cast that i listen to just about every day. >> also, this just in. he's also on see atle's cairo fm radio station. i feel like the student debt argument -- first of all, it was just one of the issues where it was nowhere and then we're all talking about student debt, which i think is a testament to a number of things. it's an issue that a lot of people have purchased. a lot of people watching have student loans semm also, the

power yvette president to be able to put something forward. pam, you've been organizing on this issue. when you look at those numbers, what do you see as the fundamental issue. why do we have this much debt? why is college as expensive as it is? what, to you, is the fundamental issue? >> i think it's important to realize that this interest rate conversation is incredibly small. we're talk ling about something that only afacts 7 million students, which sounds like a big number. but there are 37 million people right now with student debt. that's actually 58% of the population over 25 with a college degree. so when we're looking at this $1 trillion problem, which i think is critical in this, it's just

unpayable. you have 50% of students under 25 who are underemployed or unemployed right now. when you're hit with a $900 a month bill, you just simply can't pay it. >> let me touch on this a little bit. i think there's part of me that it had a resonance when you look at fox news or you read two party web sites. >> well, we have $16 trillion or whatever it is at the beginning moment. to me, it's not always a very helpful number. the question with debt isn't just how much it is. it's whether you're purchasing something that's valuable. if i take out debt to invest in se facebook, even if i have a lot of debt ration it's paying off in the end, right? so the question to me isn't the sheer number, what is on the balance sheet, it's what is the asset against that liability,

right? >> one of the problems with looking at that is then you say education is exclusively about how much money you're going to make after you gain that education, right? so, at that point, what happens is schools say, well, let's end, you know, all the humanities. let's cut out the social sciences and these things that have value to society but they may not be quantifiable in that way. yes, you do want to talk about it in the reality of what are you getting in this money. on the other hand, it's kind of a double-edged sword because you may be arguing at the same time that the humanities are no longer avail blowing. >> i'll say this as a philosophy major, but you don't want to reduce this into a strict. >> what does it look like? how do you get rid of -- what is

the debt relief plan? what are the demands of the students. >> there's no relief plan. you know, within our campaign, the occupy student debt campaign, we are looking at broad changes to higher education. one of the things that is included in our principle that is we sort of base this campaign on would be a wiping-out of this debt. but, also, we believe that public education should be federally funded, which wouldn't be hard to do. the number that i have is tille it would cost about $70 billion to do that. that's the amount of money that the pentagon literally loses. >> and you raise this question in what is college iv. and i want to take up that issue

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it wasn't until five years ago that we were in a position to pay down our loan debt. when was the last time you've seen the president of the united states who is just a few years outside of college debt. >> we only finish paying off our student loans about 8 years ago. think about that. i'm president of the united states. it was only about 8 years ago that we finished paying off our student loans. >> all right. so michelle obama and president obama talking about their personal experience of paying off student loan debt in 2008 and, again, this week, talking about this. but, to me, this raises a really interesting question. i've seen a number of critiques that say subsidy of student

loans is essentially an upper middle class issue. it benefits people. so let's think about the obamas for a second, right? yeah, president barack obama had student loans. why did he have student loan snuz he went to harvard law school. so the question is should the taxpayers be subsidizing the loan of a harvard law school grad? >> i was a kid who neither of my parentings went to college and i didn't know how much college cost. i applied to one place, the university of washington, which was in the town i lived in. somebody said we're going to loan you the money to do this. i was able to get a degree and i have a paying job. i've paid much more back into the system based on that $10,000 of debt. how quaint. $10,000. i was not an upper class kid. and this helped leverage me into

someone who's helping out. >> i'd like you to respond to that, pam. you sometimes think in the 99% formulation, is this a 95% issue or a 10% issue? >> yeah, in student loans, it's easy to look at it that way. to go to an ivy league school, it's 60,$60,000 a year. that's a pretty elite group of people. on the other hand, you're looking at problems in public institutions, right? you're looking at rising costs there, you're looking at students going into debt. right now, in this country, believe it or not, if you're born in the bottom 5th of socioeconomics, you only have a 5% chance of earning over $60,000 a year.

and your access is through public higher education system. >> and part of that is the college wage. there's a huge difference. and this data shows this. that's high school diploma a little north of 30,0000 and that's a bachelor's degree. >> number one, if you have a college degree, your likelihood of being unemployed goes down significantly. so that's the purchase for -- you know, neither of my parents went to college. i get to college on a collection of things including the g.i. bill. that broke the cycle of poverty for our entire family. now i have three children who are in college at the same time today. they, too, are benefitting from student loans, although not pell grants and other things they don't qualify for. i suspect that's going to app up more opportunities for them and their children just as it did for me. because student loan debt is

exploding and many, many parents and children cannot afford to get to an ivy league, the pressures on state students to educate more students. that means the state institution is no longer the creature of last resort. they're back into public colleges and university. those people who may not out right qualify for other places no longer find a place in a state institution. >> we're hard to get into. >> so there's a cascade effect? >> i went to the university of washington, and back then, it was, like, yeah, you could kind of always go to udub. and i have a daughter who's about to be a freshman at a different school in western washington. it was like for her to get into udub would be akin to her getting into harvard.

it's amazing. >> when you talk about both of those, you're i'ving a really good point. the social role economists play which is a kind of pump that moves people and allows people to achieve this social mobility. i think we tend to have the function doing that. a huge amount of people is the sum college part. so we fund a lot of people in college, but the shocking amount of people don't have the worst of both worlds. they're actually much closer to high school grads, but they have debt, also. so there's this huge portion of the population that the current system isn't serving. >> right now, we have some of the highest -- some of the worst job prospects for recent graduate that is we've ever seen.

and we know that that's not something that you kind of get over in a few years. that actually changes your earning power for your entire lifetime. so you've got students with the highest amount of debt. you've got, you know, the most limited amount of opportunity and, you know, what's going to happen. this is going to be pervasive throughout the entire society. there's also the fact that tuition is incredible. here's the rise in cost since 1990. it's up. median family income is up, in real terms, about double. the only other graph that looks like that in american life is health care cost. and we all agree that health care cost can bankrupt the whole society. and that, then, gets us back to

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i want to play two people talking about college and what you should learn. we just left off with this question is is this a place where we want the future work workers of america to be trained and as consumers, we can make a ru return on investment? or do we have a cultivation of a sense of inquiry specific responsibility. this is rick scott. he's going to be the first one to talk about this and then steve jobs.

>> how many more jobs you think there is for anthropology in the state? do you want to use your tax dollars to educate people that can't get jobs in anthropology? i don't. >> college at that time offered the best calligraphy instruction in the country. i learned about seriff and sans seriff, about what makes great typography grilled. it was beautiful. historical. artistically subtle in a way that science can't capture. and i found it fascinating. none of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. but ten years later, when we were designing the first macintosh computer, it all came back to me and we designed it all into the mac. it was the first computer with beautiful typography. >> i love that jobs' bit because

it's an explanation of the pragmatic things. >> yeah, but is everybody going to be steve jobs? i mean, i feel like it is a beautiful piece of tape and it's admirable, but he's exceptional, right? >> he's exceptional, but it is to me, it hones on the fact that you cannot predict what you're going to do, a, in terms of your job. and, b, you can't predict what kind of skills you might need. i mean, there's a cramped vision that says you're going to go and you're going to get a degree in business administration and then you're going to be doing business administration or health department technician. the fact of the matter is the economy is changing so much all of the time that it seems to me a better investment to get some kind of broad skilled technology. but is this just on us, too? having college has become this huge business and it's sort of -- i don't know if you'd call it conspiratorial, but everyone gets a four-year degree and they go into debt and then go into these corporate drone jobs. steve jobs also recommends doing

acid. you know, great. oy think we really get in trouble when we decide which degrees are valuable and which are not. oy said who's going to pay for this. now, i have a huge affair with the idea that she should learn how to think. and that that's going to be applicable, no matter where she takes these degree, i hope to a ph.d. and so we'll see how this all turns out. i think there's a huge, huge danger in that, just like i think there's a huge danger in saying someone with 80 or $200,000 in student loan debt is a pariah. i don't deserve any of those other thing that is may

contribute back to the public combat in this society because i'm not wealthy enough to write the check myself. >> so you're talking about the idea of tracking of essentially having a situation where there's an elite set of people that get a liberal arts degree and study calligraphy and then the working class is put in the educational system. >> like engineering and having a higher earning power when you get down to the school? >> there's a problem with that. the stem degrees, then you begin to lock out those very talented, you know, kits among the poor and working class in this country who work just as hard as their kid from a more foreign or highly educated home. >> to me, its's fate nating and part of the route of the problem here is higher education produces nonmarket intangibles.

we have an internal societal tension of what we want. and we're going more and more debt without confronting what exactly do we want higher education to produce. do we want everything that should be bought and sold, everything, you know, should be controlled by an invisible hand of a free market, an alleged free market? i would say that we want to take education and, you know, similarly to health care, out of that context. the vast majority of schools in this country have a vast profit. we say okay, this is a different form of business, per se. >> and we have an accelerating

profit. you could do a whole show about that sector of the economy. >> i look now that a degree is a stamp of approval that you are employable. if i went to three different schools, kicked out of the first one and then ended up at nyu, all four years -- >> what happened at the one you won't mention? >> we'll go back to the steve jobs clip and talk about pink floyd. but at the end of the day, 95% of the stuff i learned in college, probably was waste of my time. the key was the internship i got and my last semester at nyu and where i learned the trade. i learned the trade of journalism. >> that's a perfect example. it's an unpaid internship which is another one of the mobility mechanisms where the deck has already been stacked. >> totally stacked in my favor.

especially in jobs like prestige jobs. if you're in debt, how can you take on unpaid internship. how can you compete? >> i was trained as a broadcaster. i was unemployable without a degree as a basic staff writer at my local newspaper. myself, i was divorced with three young children. we literally fought our way to go to college and then, and only then, was i employable as a part time staff. that gets this idea that it's providing a signal to employers. it is just saying these are the kinds of people you want to employ and these are the kinds of people you don't want to employ. more about the role of college and a mitt romney and obama hitting the campaign trail. there's quite a bit of reaction after this.

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i believe in you. i believe in your future. i believe in the investment you're making. >> you know what, those businesses don't know how much they're spending on office supplies. go back and get their invoices. a store that would sell office supplies at a discount. he said that office supplies were sold at a huge mark-up and that he would have a big store that sold office supplies cheap. that that's barack obama speaking to college audiences and mitt romney speaking to college as. any time the president does something, they're going to talk about it or do it, it's this sort of i know you are but what am i situation. and so the president was hitting the campaign trail and talking to college audiences and so mitt romney was.

but it illustrated something which is, a, there's a huge age gape in terms of where young voters have their allegiance. in 2008, he won 60% of the use vote. and there's been very interestingly, there's been a big drop off in enthusiasm in recent polling. an 18% election in 2008 to 2012. and i wonder if you folks think of what that's said. is this as opposed to this challenger? is it possible to -- a, is it possible to recreate? is there a hope and change 2.0 campaign that is even possible?

b, is it necessary to inculcate matters? >> i think that people are starting to really take a look and see that our democracy has been challenged by corporate interest by wall street and they're discouraged. they're thinking what's the difference between a mitt romney and a barack obama in terms of what they're actually capable of produce i producing in terms of real change in society. >> there are real differences. if you're 24 years old and you're on your parents' health insurance or the difference between paying 3.4% interest and 6.8 interest which might be 70 bucks a month. >> there are very real and meaningful differences. i'm writing about this in my book today. the level of high partisan ship.

and make no mistake, george w. bush's administration was as polarizing. barack obama has got him beat by a couple of points, but that level of gridlock in washington is a lot of difference. what difference does it make? so you've got some people who, you know, maybe they have been in the process for one or two cycles and not truly invested, you know, sort of backing off and saying if i go out and i vote what real difference will it make? >> you know who i think is probably the candidate has people most excited is ron paul. my little brother, he's about to be a sophomore in college. we want to drive from seattle to

portland. by the end of the drive, i started by let me tell you something, little brother. by the end, i'm like you make a good point. he is energizing. >> when you're talks about appealing to the youth vote, what is that? there's a way to appeal like, well, there's a bunch of concrete policy steps. and then there's this more comprehensive vision of total change, right? ron paul, to his credit was one of the very first people, months ago, to hit student loans turks hit student debt turks hit the rising cost of higher education in this country and the disproportionate rise and fall. he was one of the very first people to talk about for-profit colleges and how they are setting their position and fee ins direct correlation to how much student aide somebody can get.

>> it isn't that the rise in debt is the result of the rise in tuition. it's that the result is the rise in division is the result in rise in debt. skbl ron paul is a rejection of the sort of two-party system. >> but i just don't think you could say none of the promises are delivered. >> as the president came in, we're going to change the way they do business in washington. do you think they changed the way they do business in washington? >> the other group of obama voter that is romney is aiming at right after this. i went to a small high school. the teacher that comes to mind for me

is my high school math teacher, dr. gilmore. i mean he could teach. he was there for us, even if we needed him in college. you could call him, you had his phone number. he was just focused on making sure we were gonna be successful. he would never give up on any of us. but last year my daughter was checking up on me. i wasn't eating well.

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>> all right, this week, mitt romney pivoted to a more latino friendly stance expressioning interest in a plan from mark orubio who is pitching his own v version of the dream act. here's romney with rubio at a campaign stop on monday. >> the dream act that's been proposed and the one that romney had earlier vowed to veto for undocumented immigrants who came to the country as children. it's been clear since mitt romney emerged, he would have to walk back from some of the

extre extreme positions like this one where he attacked texas governor rick perry. >> i don't see how it is that a state like texas, to go to the university of texas, if you're an illegal alien, you get an in-state tuition discount. that's $22,000 a year. four years of college, almost a hundred thousand dollars to go to the university of texas. that kind of magnet draws people to get that education, to get the break. it makes no sense. >> that was him attacking a version of the dream act that was passed in the state of texas. there were over 10 states who passed their own version.

>> you have been very active in a movement that is a really interesting one for a lot of reasons. you're part of the dreamer's act, right? or the dreamer's movement. tell me a little bit about yourself, where you're coming to this issue from? >> i came here at the age of ten and when i seeked medical treatment at shiner's hospital. they have a domestic and an international hospitals for youth. we came and we left for many years. we ended up staying here when i was 10 years old in connecticut. i found out i was undocumented when i was applying to colleges and, you know, you don't have a social security number. so, for many years, my parents said you're fine. we're here for a medical treatment.

and that narrative didn't suffice anymore when you needed a social to apply for ffafsa. i was really in the shadows for the first two years of my college experience. kind of had a lot of tension ins the shadows as we say in the movement because i was very politically active or curious and i was really awakened to join this growing movement in 2010. that's when i first came out publicly. >> that was because the law was moving towards a vote? >>. >> yeah, i was actually in washington, d.c. from the gallery watching what people were saying about dreamers and the dream act.

and it was very discouraging to hear how many people in washington refer to us. "illegal aliens." >> like mitt romney in that clip? >> like mitt romney in that clip. >> part of this community meaning what? part of the united states? >> part of the united states, yeah. so we've grown up here. my sister hasn't been here since she was five. we've gone through the public education system here. many of us have gone through college. somehow, you still don't belong. >> frankly, you seem terrifying to me. >> yes. like i seem dangerous or something. >> we've fulfilled every part of social citizenship. >> that's an interesting way of doing it. you were among a small group of people that met with the senator and with his chief of staff to discuss him trying to carve out a middle path between the

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great pleasure to have lorida here this morning who is a member of the dreamer's movement. just so we're clear, my sense is there's about 2 million folks who are in your situation that is to say children that are undocumented now and the dream act proposed by the senator would apply to? >> that's right. >> i want you to tell us about your meeting with the senator. you were saying something about the ret ricket around us. one of the things that's interesting is there's the substance on immigration. i've reported on immigration

before, and i've had interesting exchanges with people who take a position on that. and when you get into the weeds of that policy, it can be more complicated at first. but it's not the weeds of the policy that seems to drive and the rhetoric that's being used. what is your reaction when you see someone like mitt romney like what he uses routinely? >> i think it depends on who you're talking to. i think it's alienating. it's how can you relate? how can you support a party that talks about people who are very similar to you in that way. so people are documented and undocumented living under the same roof or children who are undocumented. so, you know, i think our

response is usually how could they be talking that way? and how could they not see what they're doing? i think the republican party is very focused on their short term whims. >> it seemed like this week, that dawned on all of us. he has, i think, nominated himself and been nominated by the party, essentially, to be the official liaison to the latino community, partly because of his background and his last name. how difficult or easy is it to erase the ringing in the ears of the terms like an illegal alien. how open minded are you that this party, the folks in the situation can come around and produce a compromise. >> i think that's the concern.

it's not enough for the senator to say i have an alternative proposal to the dream act. this is my limbtization. it's more can you get the republican leader to support. >> and that's where we're not feeling very positive. can he get it passed through by the senate and, you know, you have mitt romney who has said i will veto any dream act and saying maybe i'm open to considering, you know, this proposal. so i think things are really changing and very political in washington right now. i think that he're waking up to the fact that they need it. >> if you took out the immigration question, i think a lot of things really dove tail nicely with a lot of issues in this country. you're talking about pro-life stuff and i used to live in los angeles and i used to have a lot

of poorness with the community there. if you just take the immigration thing out, these are basically republican voters. >> but particularly, if you look at other sub demographic groups, the biggest is harsh you attend church. this is a group that is anomalous to that. and it's precisely because of that. and people like carl rove have made precisely this argument. but the roadblock is people aren't stupid. but the big question is can they overcome that? i want you to give us the details of what the meeting is like with him and his chief of staff. at aviva, we do things differently. we're bringing humanity back to life insurance. that's why only aviva rewards you with savings

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taylor and director of connecticut students for a dream. pam law brown and luke burrbank, host of the pod cast, too beautiful to live for short. we're talking about the dream act. we're talking about the beginnings of the possibility of the issue of mitt romney in considering a pro poe sal by a mark ru bshs io. you melt met with the chief of staff. i think that first of all, he is meeting with undocumented immigrants to talk about policy, which i think on the right must seem totally toxic. can you tell me a little bit about the circumstance of the meeting and how it went? >> sure. i'm actually the new england national coordinator -- or national coordinating committee represented for united we dream. and that's the organization that

has been in conversations open to dialogue with the senator and other republicans who want to come to the table. i think i want to start off by saying we are not sold on the democratic party or the republican party. we care about relief for our community and i think it's really important to emphasize that because we're really hoping to work with anyone who provides this as a reality. it's all of us committed to making a president in the senate house and sign the bill. you know, we had a meeting with senator rubio's office who has been talking to united we dream about what we would like to see in the bill. he's met with other dreamers. i know in miami-dade college, he's been reaching out to a bunch of folks to get a sense of how we feel about an alternative

that has no pathway to citizenship. >> how do you feel about that? it's half a loaf, but also, what can you do with it? what happened happen? you'd graduate and have a visa. >> based on what we know, and this is all speculation, it's a -- you're here lawfully and legally. you can go to school, you can travel, you can have a driver's license and a work permanent. and then you can become a legal rhes dante. so it doesn't bar someone from becoming a u.s. citizen. there's just no pathway. and with the bill that we saw in 2010, there was a pathway of about 13 years.

it would have taken me 13 years to become a u.s. citizen with the latest version of the dream act. >> and in the wrong direction, you're saying? >> i would say in a more conservative direction. >> you take one step forward and then the other side takes a step in retreat. i remember reporting on the dream act. i rote a big story in 2002 about the dream act which never got published. i spent a lot of time on that piece. it seemed to me imeminently reasonable. there's no moral case for holding a 9-year-old accountable when they had no control over that. if that has been the compromise, then what hope can you have that this isn't another lucy with the

football moment? >>. >> i think the move. ment is only getting started. so i think we're a very young movement. i see in many ways, the dreamers will carry forward. i think one of the concerns or things to consider as we talk about senator's proposal is would it lower the bar for a potential dream act. politically, would it lower the bar? next year, would we be starting out with a 2010 version or would we be starting out with this year's version. we don't talk about it as a republican dream act. we talk about it as senator rubio's legalization proposal because we don't want to associate it with the dream act. >> i see, interesting. will you tell me a little bit about what your situation is?

you've graduated. you're part of this movement. you're out of status. what next? how do you go about navigating this? >> i think i have a wonderful life. i do. i consider myself incredibly privileged and lucky person. i think that these struggles have made me stronger and i'm in the fight. i quantity to see things different. i went to school. i had a full ride. and i'm incredibly lucky for that. i do think, however, that the reality of being undocumented and having an education, the older you get, the harder it is to be with the status. we have dreamers who are going to school for engineering who can't do that.

>> could you be deported? could they just come pick you up after this tv show? legally? >> yes, of course. i would say, you know, we talk about how the country has gone in the opposite direction of what we wanted. but i think in many ways, we've had small wins. so we have campaigns. they're called education deportation campaigns. so if you have enough public attention around a certain particular case, it's enough to stop the deportation of a dream act eligible youth. >> in terms of thinking about where the organization is going broadly, it seems we don't seem to be making as much progress as i would have hoped. one of the things that's really interesting is the way that you guys have an analogy for the gay rights movement.

and a big part of the early lgbc movement was coming around. they wanted to destroy the stereotype that was abstract in people's mind of what a gay person was and that it was a courageous, political act that say i am gay and you know me and we work together. and you talked about coming out of the shadows. how important do you think that is for people that are dreamer's that are in your situation to make themselves known? >> i think it's perhaps the most important step that one can decide to do. as a dreamer, in the shadows hr or in the closet as some would say, you're incredibly ashamed of your identity. people refer to you in public and in different public spaces as an illegal alien.

you have, a lot of, in your interpersonal relationships way it would be to come out to your friend or your significant other. so once you come out publicly, there you're out. that's it. there's something really beautiful about that. i'm going to embrace my ootid. so what happened in this country over the past three years, i would say, is that you've gone from people being in the shadows and quite about this subject to it being in the media once a week. the press is covering this. people come out. i think a lot more people are less afraid to live their lives. >> what is web site? >> unitedwedream.org. >> rolita, it's really a pleasure. thank you so much for coming out. really appreciate it. >> already, president obama's newest weapon in the war on terror right after this. ♪

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michael hastings, author of the book "inside story of america's war on afghanistan is with us back at the table. >> i've been tweeting away pictures in the green room. a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff. >> uh-oh, the key to all of our secrets. i hope you didn't just show the liquor cabinet. just getting underway in washington this morning is a conference that's trying to bring the u.s. drone programs out of the shadows. decknology experts about the expanding use of drones worldwide. the operative word here being expanding.

on wednesday, president obama gave the go ahead to expand his drone strike policy in yemen to allow the c.i.a. against suspected operatives even when the u.s. doesn't know that names of those won't be killed if certain fit a pattern of life. this new policy can open up the door to wider strikes in yemen where drones have been heavily used already. according to a report, in 2009, there were 51 reported strikes compared with 45 during the entire administration of george w. bush. drone strikes have killed between 830 and 1210 people of whom around 550 to 850 were described as militants. there are quite a few things you

do not know. michael hastings, you wrote a big piece for rolling stone about the growth of the use of drones. >> right. >> what is driving -- drones are, in some ways, the symptom rather than the cause. what are -- what is driving the growth of this huge expansion. >> okay, big picture. there's two. you have the dark cia program. we do know some things about it. but then you have the military drone program where there's more checks and balances where you use it on an active war zone. what's driving it? it's essentially a politically -- there's no cost to using it. you don't put boots on the ground and it makes it seem like there's no human cost to war. there's places where we're waging this massive kind of bombardment campaign. it's very difficult to put a

faces to the victim. it's something that the obama administration has embraced. vice president biden was very much relying on drones. the pentagon program, as far as i can tell, has a budget. we know what the budget is. we know how many planes there are, where they're operated out of and largely they're used for our soldiers who are on the ground in places is my understanding. >> right. potentially regular artillery. but the cia program is they don't even -- the government will not acknowledge it exists. >> it's the biggest absurdity right now. he said the drone was the only game in tone. this is sort of fun. after i did this story, i got an e-mail from the administration who says why didn't you call for

comment about this. i said it's a secret program. i'm going to call to comment on a so-called secret program that you're doing. but this also leads it open to manipulation, political manipulation, right? the government releases and leaks things when they want to say something. when there's any kind of independent inquiry, they can shut it down. >> the google plus video chat that he acknowledged for the first time, the classified drones program, why did he do that? >> i'm sorry, can you be more specific? >> president obama said that drone strikes have not led to casualties. how can the administration be so certain? >> i'm not going to acknowledge or confirm any of that.

dennis blair said yesterday that drone attacks, actually did more harm to national security interests than good. does the white house have any opinion? >> we believe our relationship with pakistan is essential to fighting terrorism and terrorists. >> so that's generally the way to go. >> you know, i'm the only fumbleer military person at the tenially. table. the very first words that i learned in public affairs school in the military was i can neither confirm nor deny. >> you know, the very nature of the enemy today is different than 20 years ago, 40 years ago, certainly 60 years ago. the landscape on which we fight is so markedly different that it calls for a monumental change in

how we devise military strategy, the bumgts that we align behind it, the uses of technology out there. so i may be one of the few folks on this panel who favors the idea of targeting egnellmy combatants abroad, nameless or with name for strike. even if they're american citizens who have avowed themselves as an enemy of this country and who are working in concert with others to strike americans at home and abroad. >> i'll tell you, in seattle, where i'm from, the seattle police department is one of a number of police departments to get their own drones up and running. i think somebody living in a see tea leek seattle starts to think about the idea that this drone is with them, they may make the connection. >> those flood gates are opening as we speak.

>> i first started hearing about drones when i was in baghdad. i was in baghdad for a number of years. the question is who are we keeping it secret from? the pakistanis know about the program. >> sometimes they fall out of the sky. skbl right. >> and to go this point, i think the issue with the diagram program, i think politically, it's defensible. it might be tactically sound, but i think it's morally indefensible. i think once you start firing missiles onto groups of people you don't know who they are, when it's the c.i.a. doing it they've become this par military force. you have over a hundred people confirmed who were over 18 that are killed in these signature strikes.

>> one being the son who was killed -- >> which i don't even know if that's oppose today what this country says or its values at home. we don't have a lot of hesitance of trying a 16-year-old for murder or even sending them to punishment. so i don't know if there's a difference of value here. there's a garden of immorality. >> i want to turn to this moral issue. before we go to class smith, i just want to show this clip because the white house correspondence is there. i want to show obama making a joke about drone use in may 1st, 2010. here's president obama joking about drones. >> the jonas brothers are here.

they are out there somewhere. sasha and malea are huge fans. but boys don't get any ideas. i have two words for you. predator drones. you will never see it coming. >> i want to talk to someone who has been -- who has seen what happens on the other side of the predator drone. what it looks like when you don't see it coming right after we take a break.

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i think right now, it's about a $6 billion a year industry. but it's projected to grow up to $06 billion in drone trams. and the joke that president obama made two years ago at the white house correspondence center, it reminded me of the famous george w. bush joke where he was looking for weapons of mass destruction under the table and couldn't find them. to me, having covered these wars and seeing the impact on both americans and the iraqis, it's tough. there's this amazing crithidia in the new york times editor that we were marveling over in the editorial meeting. there is not a single new manned combat aircraft under research and development under any major aerospace company. they are no longer developing

planning on the future manned aircraft. why would you? this is now going to be the future. and you read about in your article, michael, that in the beginning, air force pilot, we've all seen top again, who are notorious ly known. >> that they, at first, did not want to be -- they were actually pulled out of manned aircraft and forced to fly this. >> there was a stigma attached to it. now it's a real career path. it's something that if you want to be a pilot, you have foe be up on this drone technology. >> we now have from washington, d.c. joining us is collide stafford smith.

>> my first question for you is, and people tweeting this while we're having this conversation and if you look at american public opinion, something like 80% for drone strikes and that extends democrats and republicans. the bush administration had a policy to destroy the operating theater and the state itself was an enemy of the united states and we would essentially declare war on you. the obama administration has moved towards this counter terrorism model where if there's counter terrorism in yemen, we will reign down missiles on the training camp. isn't that better? if you're choosing between boots on the ground and this sort of tact hcl approach isn't the latter progress? >> well, i don't know.

we have to talk about what the alternatives are. you accused them of being squirrely before. i just want people to have a debate. i think we're going into a prosays for a drone age without any meaningful discussion. if you think about 1945, we're setting into a nuclear age where there's all sortingses of secret weapons out there. what's going on today is coming up on this very fast and we're not watching it. it's one thing to talk about all of these theories. when i was in pakistan in october, i saw the human reality of it and there may be some people out there who trust to get it right all of the time. i'm afraid i don't. i was with this group of people and i was the token american. forgive me with the accent, i know it sounds british, but i'm american.

the american official line was that we did not kill any innocent people. they just snorted at me. and one of the people i met there was a kid who was 16 years old and was angry because one of his cousins had been killed with a drone missile. three days later, our government killed that child. i had shaken his hand that day and come to know him. i'm sorry. i don't think i can use the word on air for the way i described that. and we need a public debate. we've got to discuss what's going on out there. >> i want to play a sound on a strike that happened in yemen. i was talking yesterday about this topic. and he's obviously done a tremendous amount of pointing on this. the drone is one tool for implementing the broader policy, which sometimes in somalia has

been implemented with ships and cruise missiles and forces that go in. obviously, the raid of osama bin laden was actual boots on the ground that were doing it. here's a small bit of a missile strike authorized by an obama administration in yemen and it killed about 46 people. check this out.

i guess the question for you is if there are civilian casualties and it seems by all accounts that there are, is this just a mistake of the sort of tact hcl means by which we're doing the targeting? is it possible to have a drone program that was free of civil ran casualties? >> well, of course not. and you have to remember where they get their information from. it's the same that put all of those people in quan tan moe bay. we were paying $5,000 to any snitch who wanted to give us information. $5,000 in those parts oves hr of the world is the equivalent to a quarter of a million dollars for us. and i ask you to show me someone that wouldn't take that? i knew some of you would come way down. but this is the problem.

i mean, we're told we're getting this great intelligence. i'm here to tell you it's absolute nonsense. i've met the people who have been killed. the reason he got killed is because some informant said he was a bad dude and boom, he's dead. >> it's much easier to finger nobodies than bin laden. and we need it to be open, not secret. stick with us. we're going to talk more about this right after this break. bre a healthy way with listerine® whitening plus restoring rinse. it's the only rinse that makes your teeth two shades whiter and two times stronger. ♪ listerine® whitening... power to your mouth.

class smith live from d.c. let me get your take on this conversation because you said in the beginning you broadly support this strategy. and it is hard to -- first of all, in order to have the debate on the policy, which we're not

having at all, if you look at the videos and you shake the hands of the people that we are killing or innocent and then conclude that that's worth it, that's one thing. but we're not even in that step. do you think the cost is worth it? is it your feeling about the approach? >> i think the cost is exceedingly high. more than boots on the ground or drones in the air, the idea that we're going ah to have civilian collateral cost is a constant. war is an ugly, ugly thing. but, as i said in the break, i always go back to fight for it. so over the last several years, we have seen a near december maciol. i think that leaves this country a bit safer, even though there are still threats around the world. i think that, you know, there

were, and sometimes we forget, you know, thousands of people who went to work one morning to type or do a trade or do whatever it is they do for a living. and then two buildings came crashing down. >> i think that we get so far away from something that we forget the cost. that was a one-off in my opinion. that was so improbable that it worked out for the bad guys. the fact that they confiscate my pert plus in the airport because somebody knocked a building down 10 years ago. and i'm not trying to be glib. >> the horror and rage that one feels at the motion of death, that's exactly what you saw on that tape. that's exactly what we saw on that tape in which now we are the implementer. so if you feel watching those buildings come down, like we all felt, horror and rage, there's's

o a certain amounted of horror and rage that see five pregnant women have death reign down above them. >> i think that's probably the feeling among liberals. among democrats. i think that it's a horrible thing. but this is far, far superior to the host of bad alternatives. >> i accept that war is ugly. i think one thing that we must not lose sight of is war isn't war. we needed regulation and discussion. michael talks in his excellent article about some of the other uses. i've got a drone. i bought it on the internet. it cost me 300 bucks. and if you guys don't behave yourself, i'll show you.

if you come to london for the 2012 olympics, we're going to drone you. and the british police will watch everything you do. the cia admits it. so we need to have a much bigger debate. we must not be afraid. we must not allow people to be killed by alquiada. i think the essence is there really needs to be a debate before our lives change. we need to find out what you know right after a quick break. aspirin is just old school.

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program, specifically the cia's drone program we all think was responsible for the strike against, for instance. how that operated. what do you think that we do need to know? i mean, for example, we know they take videos of all of their drone strikes. why won't they let us see them? that would be one way to see what's going on. >> what you're doing today, having a discussion is the beginning of a very important debate. and we're doing that here in washington, d.c. and all americans need to be discussing how these drones need to affect their lives. and we need to set some rules to make sure we don't get in the model that we have of the nuclear path. >> what legal action can the human rights community take? you've done some of the most important work on gone tan moe?

what legal action can they take? and is the end game to shut the program down? >> oh, michael, we'll be here all week if you want to know what legal actions we're bringing. and i'd love to go into it. but what we'd love to do is not shut any program down. i'm interested in us having an open discussion with the facts. when the c.i.a. wheezeles the way they did in that clip, then you're not getting the true facts. that's what we want from government first, but from some of these cormss, as well. >> oh, lots of lawsuits. i'm having so much fun on that, but it is really entertaining. they're doing some wicked things. when they killed those kids in pakistan, that really annoyed me. we'll sue them in britain, pakistan, here in america.

oleate matly, what we want is a big debate. and the fact that 80% of americans want to change is going to start. >> class smith, you work with reprieve organization, you were at the first drone summit. thank you so much for joining us early this morning. i really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> so what do we know now that we didn't know last week? my answer after this. hey, dad, you think i could drive? i'll tell you what -- when we stop to fill it up. ♪ ♪ [ son ] you realize, it's gotta run out sometime. [ male announcer ] jetta tdi clean diesel. the turbo that gets 42 miles per gallon. that's the power of german engineering.

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>> so what do we know now that we didn't know last week. we now know that total student debt has passed the $1 trillion mark. it is growing at a rate during the housing bubble. we know that the student debt

crisis is a symptom, not its cause. and that creating the society is real and not an illusion will require a readd cal thinking of the role and purpose. the entire public sphere, more broadly. in the wake of tuesday's pennsylvania primary results, we know of two who will no longer be in congress. democratic incumbents with 13 terms were both unseated by democratic primary who both attacked them from the left. we know that few things concentrate the mind like primary challenges and the effects on the caucus ripple out far pr the individual races themselves. we now know it is not just corporations fleeing aa.l.e.c. in pushing through the florida's controversial stand your ground law. democratic state legislatures are as well. a group of progressives have

targeted the states who are members of alec and the senators from nebraska being the most recent to drop it. >> we know that you can use law s to prosecute al qaeda. right now the justices are charging a man who plotted to blow up the subway system. even though this is not taking place in guantanamo bay, but in brooklyn. we know that the mundane rules of evidence may be germanic, and produce the chest-thumping demagogues of those of the sheikh mohamed trial, but we know it is a victory for foez who contend that the justice system can handle the accused terrorists. and via the tweeter, we know that the university of florida will not be dumping computer science department so as to save $1.7 million from the budget after a preliminary announcement

justifiably caused a uproar on campus. we know they were part of a budget cut from all of florida's university,but never fear, gator fans, because the athletic department did not have their budget slashed. starting with goldie taylor, what do you know? >> well, i know that we are in constant conversation with children and food and one of my twitter followers. what i do know is that education is disruptive to poverty, and while we are having conversation tbt student loans and the pell grants and other things, we are missing an entire conversation on quality basic education for children who never ever get to see the light of day for a college campus, let alone get themselves out of high school, and so when we look at, you

know, where the conversation is not, it is not on breaking the cycle of poverty in intercity communities which by the way breaks the cycle of violence in other things including absentee parentism, and the other issues that surround this. this country is more invested in containing poverty and pacifying those who are interested and, you know, placating those who are trapped in demonizing it. >> a huge part of the sum college group that we talked about, people who enter college but don't complete depends on the education in k-12 and if you don't improve it and funnel the people into college what you will get is a lot of people out of it. >> and you get out of it what you bring, and if we don't educate the children, we will lose. >> and i did busby, the favorite new website the women of the obama campaign. i don't know if the viewers are familiar about the reputation of the obama campaign being a boy's club, but the three deputy

campaign managers in chicago are three powerful women, and veteran campaign operatives and stephanie cutter and julianna smoot, and i know when they find out that it is going to be about the boy's club, you will receive an angry phone call about a certain campaign official in chicago and you know who i am talking about and try to get you to not do that story, but it is interesting to see how those women also have been crucial in debbie wassermann schultz as well and she called it how crucial they have been in pushing the war on women and women's issue. >> pam brown? >> well, next week is going to be may day, may 1st which is a holiday celebrated around the world, but that we have not celebrated here in the united states. what i didn't know that i learned this week is that it actually in 1896 about eight activists were killed in chicago when protesting to get our right

to enact our work day, and that triggered this holiday, but here in the united states, we celebrated it in september. so this is going to be the first time that we are actually commemorating this here. >> and on may 1st we will do a whole bunch on the labor movement and occupy labor force. that is fascinatinfascinating. what do you now know, luke burrbank? >> well, if you go into mcdonald's and ask them for a cup of water and go up to the self-serve machine, do not go put up soda in that cup, because it happened to a guy in florida who is now facing five years and $5,000 fine for doing the thing that we have all considered in our mind which is are they going to notice if i don't put the water in here, but if i get -- and here is my point with this, chris, when they moved -- >> 30 seconds. >> when they moved the soda out into the population, they let

the inmates run the asylum. >> there is a word of mcdonald's that this is a little bit of a loss leader. don't -- >> don't put the cotton candy machine in the center of the day care and say, kids, don't eat this stuff. >> thank you, to the panel, today. thank you so much for getting up, and joining us for "up" and join us tomorrow morning sunday morning at 8:00 when we will have the american federation of teachers president randy wii wi gardner. what do you have coming up

melissa harris-perry? >> well, shgs , i admit that wet the toys. we have legos and barbies and it is going to be great. on a much more serious topic, after the arab spring, a year after the revolutions, what is the role of women in the post arab kind of arab spring middle east? we are going to talk about all of that this morning. >> and yes, mona had a controversial piece titled "why do they hate us?" >> she is going to join us. >> oh, that is a great booking. melissa harris-perry coming up next. see you tomorrow morning at 8:00, and thanks for getting up. >> yes! [ male announcer ] this is corporate caterers, miami, florida. in here, great food demands a great presentation. so at&t showed corporate caterers how to better collaborate by using a mobile solution, in a whole new way. using real-time photo sharing abilities,

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