>> i agree with the romney campaign that using the osama bin laden assassination, the killing, the great news we had a year ago, in order to say obama did it and romney might not have done it. it's one of the most despicable things you can do. it's like what hillary clinton did with the 3:00 a.m. call. >> good morning. it's monday, may 1. oh, it's tuesday. oops. welcome to "morning joe." >> it's a weekday. >> i walked in and said it's only tuesday to our guy. >> it's not monday anywhere. >> no, i'm dead wrong. >> you know, there's a -- i'm glad we have jon meacham here because he may be the only one to get it. i don't think mike barnicle

watches, do you? >> what are you talking about? >> i have seen it. >> have you really? >> it's a pub down on second avenue. >> red sox pub. there's a great moment in the first season when maggie smith is, the young lawyer says that he can't do it until the weekend. weekend? what's that? it's like mika. you don't ever work and you live in the south of france. >> yeah, i don't work. let's work on that narrative. i'm so lazy. >> not lazy. >> oh, no. no, it's not. all right. mike barnicle is here. >> it's aristocratic. >> it is. >> the executive editor jon meacham is here. >> like mary crawford.

i'm in love with mary crawford. >> are you really? what about you, willie? >> i wish we could rerack the tape. >> let's get on with news. >> this is a day that i do remember. i may not know the day of the week. >> but it's the day. >> the one-year anniversary of osama bin laden's death. >> it was a year ago that osama bin laden was killed. >> it was kind of a big deal. >> nobody is talking about it, right? nobody is bringing this up. wouldn't you expect in the middle of the campaign that somebody did this. >> i don't get why it's become such an issue, politically. i really don't. i share with arianna huffington, i don't get why anyone would think the president is wrong or using it to say a year ago today, we made the decision, we made the decision to go after

osama bin laden. >> it's fine to wallow around in it? >> look at the history of politics. look what the republican party has done to the democrats. they hung that around every democrat running for office in the land. look what they have done with national security. look what they did to john kerry in '04. do you think they would not be accusing barack obama of being soft on everything had this decision not been carried out successfully? >> i think you put it all in proper context. what say you, jon meacham? >> it's totally politicizing it. it's calling something a cult, a religion with what you don't agree. if you are politicizing something, it means the other guy is beating your brains in. you can't respond. i thought the ad was fascinating on 100 different levels. one is bill clinton as witness to the prosecution is historically fascinating.

yeah. it's political. guess what? it's going to be a close re-election and as mike says, democrats spent every year since 1968 on the defensive about american power and so the guy who the president who learned how to box from his stepfather by just punching back and punching back and taking punches until he learned how to do it is punching. >> the only thing i will say is republicans politicized it in the past. but, there are some noble examples of men who rise above mere politics in the midst of, i think, sacrifice by men and women in the military. the country as a whole. you are going to write a biography one day of one of those men, the last gentlemen. who refused? what refused to make political

hay over the wall coming down, the end of the soviet union? refused. >> right. >> in fact, germans will still tell you today, their country would not be unified if george h.w. bush had not acted as he did in 1989 and refused to politicize it. >> that's true. i will just say that to my mind, i probably would have, if i had been making this, i would have been more implicit and heavy handed about romney. you can talk about the courage to make this call, which i think was a courageous call. >> it was courageous. >> had it not worked, the people saying it was outrageous would call him weak, try to impeach him for violating the

sovereignty of pakistan. >> no doubt, if the shoe were on the other foot, if the operation failed, republicans would be blasting away with both barrels. >> it's a good debate. i'm going to show you what romney said. then a conversation i had with alex. >> she gets tipsy. >> everything is good. i'm going to punch each and every one of you. he would not have gone after the terror leader the same way the president did. take a listen to mitt romney. >> would you have given the order? >> even jimmy carter would not have given that order. >> that's good stuff. >> that's a cheep shot. >> president obama reacted to romney's comment referring to

romney's 2007 statement that wouldn't move heaven and earth spending billions of dollars to get one person. his administration is putting too much emphasis on the anniversary of the al qaeda leader's death. >> i hardly think you see excessive celebration taking place here. i recommend everybody take a look at people's previous statements in terms of whether they thought it was appropriate to go into pakistan and take out bin laden. i assume that people meant what they said when they said it. that's been at least my practice. i said that i'd go after bin laden if we had a clear shot at him and i did. if there are others who have said one thing and now suggest they'd do something else, i will let them explain. >> many op-eds have come out

against president obama about this. obama is making me queezy because his campaign is looking sleazy. mitt romney would not have killed osama bin laden is the beginning of it. obama still managed to take things to a new level. in the wall street journal, the paper's editorial says a year later mr. obama is entitled to a victory lap. it never seems to be enough for mr. obama and his crack chicago campaign team. they haven't make the case for their boss. they have to assert if romney heard the same intelligence and heard the same briefings he would have cowarded from staying in the s.e.a.l.s. okay.

>> the first half. >> no. >> i don't think it's -- i wouldn't -- you could have done this ad could have been done that was about the difficulties of being commander in chief, bill clinton testifying for you. three years ago we never would have thought about that. by implication, i made the call, what would the other guy do? it's turned into a tactical conversation. it's one of the most important things you hire the president to do. >> wouldn't you argue this is the most symbolic form of events that they couldn't have gotten done by the last one when they had a chance, not to get ugly. i called alex before the show after reading dana millbank and say didn't bush run on fear? didn't a lot of people vote on

fear? didn't they politicize a lot of what they were doing on sending thousands of soldiers to war perhaps without precondition? it was all part of the campaign, wasn't it? >> ask john kerry. >> yeah. >> silver star, purple heart, they made him out to be a weakling in 2004. if there is an error in this, you would submit president obama maybe should have spent more time on the phone with president george h.w. bush about how to frame these up. here is a man who put together a coalition for gulf war one. you never heard from him about the due diligence that went into that. the degree of difficulty in that. i mean there was a modesty to him. there was a modesty to him, still, that is very attractive. i wish we had a little bit more

of that in this. >> you don't mind george h.w. -- >> you know what alex said to me? >> what? >> you sound like the youtube late di-? >> what youtube lady? >> i don't know. >> the impersonator. >> yeah, she's funny. >> if you take a step back out of this, get out of the weeds, this is why people are depressed. what could be a more unifying event, the guy who perpetrated the worst american day in history. it comes from both sides. it was a tough decision. president obama did a courageous thing. leon panetta said it was a 40/60 call. it was that tough of a decision. for the president to gloat a little bit and go the next step further and question whether or not mitt romney would have the guts to do the same thing, he's

calling out jimmy carter. it gets ugly from here. >> you know what the thing is. now you have john mccain who rightly is with his code. >> right. >> heroes don't talk about what they have done. it's coming out on the other side. he's attacking the president. the president is attacking -- people are attacking romney. in the middle of this are the s.e.a.l.s who did this. if they aren't rolling their eyes at president obama going come on, you're a hero? you're a hero? did you take the shot? a lot of them are speaking out. they are looking at republicans saying the same thing, you are politicizing this when some s.e.a.l.s who are democrats would say both sides are going to -- i want to talk quickly about jimmy carter. jon meacham, you are a histor n

historian, so they say. you are working on jefferson? >> i am. >> have you buried him yet? >> i'm embalming him. >> when does the jefferson biography come out? >> a week after the election. >> good, i can't wait to read it. jefferson, he really is the american speak. there's not a definitive biography in the past 30, 40 years? >> my argument is all the contradictions begin to fall into place when you see him as he was, an american politician. for most of his working life, he was seeking or holding office. >> was he like fdr like he was all things to all people? he would tell anybody anything to get them in the office? that sort of complex -- >> he hated personal

confrontation. >> like me. >> a lot like you. people, just like fdr would leave the room thinking he agreed with them. he didn't want to start a face-to-face fight. he told his kids, never quarrel with anyone. they never change their minds after you argue with them. he was a politician like the best we have had and a couple we mentioned this morning with a vision but knew when to depart from dogma to govern. we can talk in political science terms, idealistic terms. thomas jefferson had to win elections. barack obama has to win elections. franklin roosevelt won four. the one problem with the george h.w. bush analogy, he's a great man. >> he lost. he lost. of course republicans wanted him to exploit the end of the cold war. any political thinking would and

he refused to do it. good point. he lost. >> john mccain said they want me to be like i was but i lost. >> i'm looking at it now. >> i talked about cater. >> hoover, carter and cheap shots. as a conservative criticizing former president carter for almost four decades now, i say enough is enough. all one has to do is read a few pages of his white house diary or recent bible guide to get a better understanding of the challenges that faced the man when he lived at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. his we are the same kind of crises that barack obama, george w. bush and bill clinton stare down daily. the people and the press have every right to challenge a sitting president, i suggest after a president has been out of the ovl office for 0 years

politicians should look elsewhere for cheep shots. >> i don't mean to laser in on mitt romney. people think i pick on him too much. it was jarring him yesterday saying that of jimmy carter, especially after dessert one. especially after jimmy carter tries to do that. dr. brzezinski said that wasn't the low point of his service as national security adviser. that was the worst day of his life. it was probably the worst day of jimmy carter's life. again, i don't want to make too much of an offhanded remark in new hampshire but seriously, after four decades, can we not leave jimmy carter alone and honor him for what he did for this country? i made the jokes. like herbert hoover was the butt of all democratic jokes.

even truman said hoover didn't start the great depression any more than i did. can't we let it go? didn't it strike you as a cheap shot? >> it was. carter made a difficult decision on the rescue decision. it turned out tragically, but he made a decision. he paid a price for it in realtime. he's certainly paid a price for it historically. one of the great things about history is the central duty we owe to history is rewrite it, always rethink it. it will be interesting to see, as the revision happens how president carter stands given he confronted all the issues you said in your post, all the issues we have confronted for 30 years whether it's energy or terrorism in the middle east or economic growth. >> putting together a middle east peace plan along with dr.

brzezinski that excluded the possibility of a ground war in the middle east for the past 40 years. >> there's also a thread of history you can pull through from 1979-1980 through george h.w. bush's presidency to this stage. the reasons they lost, the reasons carter lost, the reasons president bush lost in 1992 were not just it wasn't just one reason. the economy was the principle reason as the economy well might be, obviously, the principle reason that we win or lose this fall. >> president obama was about this close to suffering the same fate as desert one. the great navy s.e.a.l.s were able to rescue their brothers. >> he is always easy. >> yeah. >> these are tough decisions. sometimes they end well and sometimes they don't. coming up, we'll talk to tom

coburn. he's out with a scathing new book calling out who is to blame for the country's debt problems. we'll bring in the forper drek ter of the counterterrorism michael leiter watching the bin laden raid unfold and the chief pentagon correspondent jim miklaszewski. first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? >> a gloomy start to may. a lot of big cities up the east coast. grab the umbrella up to new england. the green on the map is the rain. we have a heavy thunderstorm. downpours near dale city. washington, d.c., showers moving in. d.c. by 10:00 a.m., the rain threat will be over with. up the coast, heavy rain in new york city. showers and thunderstorms down interstate 95. philadelphia, showers for you until 11:00 a.m. new york city by noon is when the rain threat is ending.

further to the north, it's not raining yet. it will later this afternoon and in the morning, too. you are stuck in a cold, dreary day. filly to d.c., you get the sunshine later this afternoon. other concerns out there, thunderstorms we have big ones rolling through missouri this morning. late this afternoon from minneapolis to kansas city and chicago, strong thunderstorms including the potential of tornadoes in minnesota. once again, i-95 slow morning commute from new york city to d.c. this is how it looks on the top of our building here, top of the rock. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. losing weight clicked for me

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mitt romney beginning conversations with teens to put them at ease. how's puberty going. number nine, where do you summer. eight do you play sport ball. seven, nice shirt, you know my friend owns the gab. six, you teens are just the right height. five, check out my sick windsor not. four, would you like to see my dancing horse? roll it. there's his dancing horse. okay. that's enough. three, raise the roof if your bonds have reached maturity. two, just like this. >> who let the dogs out. >> who let the dogs out, that's right, mitt. go crazy. and the number one way he begins conversations with teens, didn't i fire your father? >> that's good stuff. 25 past the hour.

pull yourself together. that was good. that was good. >> yeah, that was one of the best in a long time. >> the windsor knot. >> that is hilarious. that's what i say. >> time to look at the morning papers. washington post, the office of congressional ethics found no evidence that republican congressman spencer bachus. he was the chairman of the committee came under an investigation after it was suggested he was using insider knowledge to his advantage in the stock market. >> the wall street journal says not even bank of america's moneymakers are safe from cuts. they are going to cut employees from investment banking in global wealth management units. online governor chris christie is, oh, chris christie

is responding to jokes jimmy kimmel made. >> you know, they say inside every american governor is a president struggling to get out. in chris christie's case, it's the only one you can still hear them screaming. >> he might be misunderstanding new jersey slogan, it's not the olive garden state. >> luckily, for me, i had sofia next to me to console me. when she's next to you, you don't care what jimmy kimmel is saying. the minute he started joking about the president being too thin, i figured i was in the zone of danger at that point. >> i think he's a good sport. i don't like those jokes. >> "the new york times" and what's being called the derby of all derbies. man, manchester city defeated manchester united yesterday, 1-0

in a match that could determine who wins the eagles premier league. this means nothing to 99% of you, but this was, perhaps the biggest soccer match in england probably in 20 years. >> i actually watched it yesterday. it was fantastic. >> by the way, willie, we are playing oasis. they were up in the stands. manchester. it was a civil war. >> our buddy who comes on the show all the time turned my son into a man city fan. >> really? >> he has the gear. >> gary? >> gary brings in the soccer bag. he's spreading the gospel. >> he may be on the side of champions. >> i'm fighting to bring him back to american sports. >> it's like a fungus spreading across -- >> i think i'm help lsz. a look at the politico playbook.

jim vand hide. >> oh, wow. >> speaking of fungus. >> there he is. >> it's a shocker. jim's date to the correspondent's dinner, what to reveal who it was? >> charles woodson. i turned myself into a photographer. i got charles and the famous willie geist. we'll have to bring that on on thursday. >> that's big for jim. for you, i saw a picture, i want to get it up on the air. >> oh, no. >> you and kate upton. >> she's a dear friend. mostly policy. >> you said she's nice. >> extremely nice. all jokes aside, very friendly. she was talking to everybody. she was great. >> let's move on. jim you have a big story in politico about congressional dysfunction. you say it's worse from here. tell us about it. >> yes, i think it is. people think it can't get worse.

it is going to. there's an assumption that congress will start to work together. it's getting more polarized, not less. there are no more moderate republicans left. you are going to have fewer moderates in the senate and a lot of republican who is are up in 2014 who look at what's happening to dick lugar in indiana and orrin hatch in utah. they are going to move to the right. there's no incentive in politics to be sane, to be compromise minded or moderate. every incentive is to go to the other extreme whether going on cable or a profile on the web, getting money or avoiding a tax from super pacs. every single one favors the id logical true believers. it speaks to what congress is going to look like for two to four years when there's public backlash against it. a bargain, can we get a debt

deal, post election. fat chance. these two parties come from different worlds. >> the problem is, willie, remember the republican that -- wilson? he apologized. >> yeah. >> then he got millions and millions of dollars across america. you have grayson from florida. he would come on tv an say the most outrageous thing about republicans. millions and millions. i can't believe we have that already. how did -- wait a second, i forget. t.j. is on vacation. anyway, you know, michele bachmann when we were critical of michele bachmann, she was at the top, money was flowing in. we started talking about how we thought she was more nuanced and we started saying really nice things about her. maybe it's that we were saying nice things about her but she

went down in the polls. >> jim, you write, want to become a hero to activists better sound like allen grayson or allen west than olympia snowe. there's no reward. you said something earlier, there's no incentive to be sane. what does that mean? you touched on it a little bit for policy. what about politics? >> it has profound implications for govern innocence. what happens is independents reject what they get. it gives you more and more volatility in the system. more and more turn over than we used to. more swings than we used to. you go from all republican control to all democratic control to divided government. after the next election, you could end up with all democrat or all republican control. it creates uncertainty for the

health care bill, the dodd/frank bill, e.p.a. regulations. you can't assume the law of the land is the law of the land for more than 24 months. >> here is the tension. six, seven months ago, when i was writing politico columns, i wrote something. i'm on a deadline. i wrote crazy never wins. >> that was a good one. >> if you are crazy, you are not going to win the republican nomination for president which is the case. that's the reality on the presidential level but on the congressional level, it's just the opposite. so, you actually not only have the political difference but an institutional difference where moderations are rewarded on the top level but below, chaos. crazy comments. >> which is why congressional

approval rating is even with foot fungus. nobody likes congress. the white house might be held in low esteem, but not as low esteem as congress. that's going to be the governing reality for some time until congress can work together. if you talk to members you say how can it change? it's cyclical. voters are going to reject partisanship and demand action on the tax reform, deficit and debt. sanity will prevail. it's hard to see how it happens. >> he seems sensitive. >> yeah. >> touched a nerve here. >> not something he wanted to talk about. >> he's lived with it so long. >> there's no filter on this show. >> gotcha. >> jim van da hide, a look at the play book. >> he wears sandals with socks. >> terrible. >> coming up -- >> wisconsin fashion.

>> the new york knicks season was on the brink. now, it's taken a turn for the bizarre. amar'e stoudemire punches the glass case of a fire extinguisher. i went to a small high school.

the teacher that comes to mind for me is my high school math teacher, dr. gilmore. i mean he could teach. he was there for us, even if we needed him in college. you could call him, you had his phone number. he was just focused on making sure we were gonna be successful. he would never give up on any of us.

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all right. time for sports. we begin by showing the back pages of tabloids. here is the back page of the new york post. blood and putz. it's a photograph of amar'e stoudemire with his arm wrapped in a sling. there you have it. what does that mean? we'll explain in a second why he's called those things. game two, miami and new york, knicks down four. closer than game one. a minute later ended. lebron james comes in. miami up six at the break. five minutes left. as i said, the knicks hung around. the heat pulled away.

bosh for a four pointer. up two games to none in the series. after the game, the nicks star center seen leaving the arena with his arm in a sling and his forearm heavily bandaged. the result of smashing a fire extinguisher with his hand out of frustration. it left a big laceration requiring stitches. he will miss game three and the rest of the knicks playoff series which may not lost much longer. he apologized quickly after his actions writing, i'm so mad at myself right now. i want to apologize to my fans and my team. i am not proud of my actions. we are headed home for a new start. the top of the fourth, reigning national league mvp ryan brawn, what a game.

historic. solo home run ties the game at one. later, a two-run home run this time. upper deck shot. comes up again in the seventh. looking for a hat trick and gets it. he becomes the first player to hit three home runs in a game at petco park. he added a triple. >> fred lynn 1975, june, tigers stadium. >> that was not in the teleprompter, he just knew that. the dodgers matt kemp finishing up an incredible season. he goes the other way. major league leading 12 home run of the year. later he strikes out with the bases loaded. but, enough damage had been done. dodgers lead, 6-2. 12 home runs riting .417, 25

rbis. they tell us he's the third player since 1920 to hit four home runs in the month of april joining -- >> first of all -- >> not that good. >> larry walker, 1997. >> oh, my gosh. that's good. >> today is the first day of the magic johnson -- >> really? >> it begins with the best record of the national league. coming up next, mika's must read opinion pages. ♪ ♪ [ lauer ] this is our team. and unlike other countries, it's built by your donations, not government funding.

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welcome back to morning show. time for the must read opinion pages. we take a live look at washington. rainy morning here in new york. all right. let's start with this first one from "the washington post." why paul ryan's reform conservative deserves a chance. for all its flaws ryan's reform conservatism takes america's largest problem seriously while obama does not. it's the creation of a health entitlement that according to charles blahous worsens it over time. medicare is supposed to emerge from a panel of 15 experts and drastic cuts unlikely to materialize. if they did, many health providers would leave the medicare health system. obama has a ploy and vilifies those with a plan.

it's a stunning act of irresponsibility and the reason conform conservative deserves a chance to govern. >> you have seen the budget and you think it's too far, correct? >> well, no. on long term debt, the president is being reckless and irresponsible. the republicans were under george w. bush for eight years with the help of george w. bush. the ryan budget, on long term debt, i don't think it does as much as the last budget did because he doesn't touch social security and allows medicare to grow at the rate the president does. my point is, when you don't aggressively go after entitlement spending growth over the next generation, if you want to balance the budget, you go after 11% or 12% of the budget. that takes care of what the

government actually does. it cuts far too much in that 11%, 12% because we don't have the courage to cut over what we have to do over the next 30, 40 years. >> what is reform conservatism? >> i don't -- i don't -- that's another thing. i'm confused about the article. what he eas talking about isn't a grand, sweeping vision. it's math. it's math. i'm still distressed and and distressed more republicans aren't getting behind it. they are acting as shamelessly as anyone. they should be so embarrassed to call themselves public servants when you can't put a budget together in over 1,000 days. you look at a president four years ago, i follow this because i'm a nerd when it comes to

numbers. he said we can't kick the can on medicare and social security. he's kicked the can down the road. as this op-ed points out, the white house rags about cutting medicare, but they cut medicare to create a new entitlement which we find out from the cbo is costing more than the obama administration told us a year ago it would cost us. nobody is serious in washington. both parties should be ashamed of themselves. >> make the argument, are there two parties or one big one? >> it's one big one. you have huge entitlements created under president bush. you have unfunded entitlements under president obama. it's always easier to create a broad benefit than to pay for it. which is more fun? >> yeah. >> obama's plan a stunning act

of irresponsibility? >> it's a stunning act of irresponsibility. i have been saying it for years, george w. bush was irresponsibility when he created a program for medicare when it was going bankrupt. barack obama irresponsible when he created it in 2009 and 2010 when he created health care reform. when a politician says i'm going to give 30 million people, 40 million people more health insurance and it's going to save you money. not for free, it's going to save you money. at that point, close the door in his face and lock it. republicans and democrats are preaching free lunch for middle class and upper middle class entitlement holders for decades. it's going to bankrupt this generation, the next generation and the -- our children, memo to

our children, you are screwed. politicians today in both parties are being so reckless with entitlement. >> we have tom coburn coming up. >> he's a big difference. exactly. exactly. >> coburn and by the way, coburn and a few senators are actually talking responsibly. >> we'll talk to tom coburn about this coming up. >> by the way, can i say quickly, one of those you can talk about coburn. he's certainly been that way. hat tip to dick durbin who, it was a democrat, it was not easy for him to endorse simpson/bowles. look at other republicans saying we are going to have to take care of things from both sides. of course, ron wyden getting absolutely hammered by his own party because they are reckless

demagogues, the leaders have been reckless demagogues. ron wyden had the courage to step forward and say we have to work with the other side to save this country. every meeting he goes into, he is shunned and attacked. he hasn't told me this. other people have. the democrats are killing him because he's had the courage to try to save all of us from this debt explosion that is coming. >> he's going to be on on monday. >> oh, good. >> for the record. up next, willie's news you can't use. keep it here on "morning joe." we love gardening... yeah, but the feeling wasn't always mutual. i should be arrested for crimes against potted plant-kind. we're armed, and inexperienced. people call me an over-waterer. [ female announcer ] with miracle-gro, you don't have to be a great gardener to have a green thumb. every miracle-gro product helps your garden grow bigger,

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it's time for a little news you can't use. if you have been paying attention you know about the chinese human rights activist who escaped house arrest. he's blind. we are told he's been offered safety and comfort by the united states. we are not sure where. somewhere within china. hillary clinton is now over there dealing with it on a previously scheduled trip. steven colbert talked about the difficult dance the u.s. has to do. we got chen guangcheng or as i

will call him, eric. eric is a total bad ass. this was guarded by 90 to 100 police. he feigned illness lulling guards into complacency and slipped out of the house and managed to cross the river and rendezvoused with friend who is drove him to the capital, beijing and he is blind. this comes at something of a tense time in our relationship with china and by tense, i mean we owe them money. but you know what, eric? international debt be damned. we have to show the world we stand-up for our principles. we don't stand for this. we stand for nothing. let's find the courage to say to this brave young man, hey, eric,

you made it. awesome man. i guess you heard us declare our commitment to human rights. we must have declared loudly. ordinarily, we would be stoked about you crashing with us, but this isn't the best time. you know who else is into human rights? canada. it's a fantastic country. vancouver is full of chinese people. >> pretty good analysis of the problem, actually. he nails it. when we come back on "morning joe," senator tom coburn will be with us next on "morning joe." this at&t 4g network is fast. hey, heard any updates on the game? i think it's final seconds, ohh, shoots a three, game over. so two seconds ago... hey mr. and mrs. harris, where's kevin?

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i'm barack obama and i approve this message. >> over the top, erroneous, president obama's clean energy initiatives helped create jobs more america across america, not overseas. what about romney? he shipped american jobs to mexico and china. as governor, he outsourced jobs to a call center in india. it's what you would expect from a guy with a swiss bank account. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it's an ad that will be heard in

virginia, ohio and iowa. hitting romney on his swiss bank accounts. republican senator from oklahoma, tom coburn. "the debt bomb" very good to have you on the show, senator. >> great to be with you. >> let's get straight to the news or talk about the ad, joe? >> we can talk about the ad. i would rather talk about tom's book and what he's been doing since 1994, "the debt bomb." i say it so much it makes me tired. usually when i say it, i get killed on twitter, in e-mails and online when ever i say this problem is not a republican problem, the debt bomb coming rk it's not a democrat problem, it's a washington problem. you and i together figured out in a couple weeks that wasn't

the case. >> didn't take that long. >> could you explain to those who have ears to hear, what the real problem is in washington, d.c. and why neither party will face down the debt bomb that is going to destroy this economy? >> sure. the problem is not gridlock. the members of both parties agree too much. if you think about it, how did we get to where we are $16 trillion in debt, running a $1.3 trillion deficit this year? because people are going to make the short term decision for their career rather than what is best for our country. when you make the best right thing for our country, there's a political price to pay. we are at the standpoint where harry reid doesn't want anybody to defend their position, so we don't do anything. we don't pass a budget. >> harry reid is the president's pocket veto. nothing that passes the house

gets to the president because harry sits on it, right? >> you know -- the decision is not to get to the president. the decision is to not have your members take a stand and take a vote and go explain it. you know, this is the most predictable crisis this country has ever faced. yet, we spent two and a half years doing nothing about it. the impact on the average family, the impact on the retired senior, the impact on a student going to college. one in two students can't get a full time job now. it's three out of four or four out of five, if we allow this to continue. what's in front of us is solvable. it's not with the career politician group in washington today. >> when we ran in '94, i campaigned against america's $4 trillion debt. by the time i left, seven years later, it was a $5 trillion

debt. by the time george w. bush left office, eight years later, it was an $11.5 trillion debt. now, it's a $16 trillion debt. four years from now, it will be over $20 trillion. the numbers don't add up. >> we won't get to $20 trillion. the reason is the world isn't going to loan us the money. we have to make choices and reform and secure medicare. we are going to have to fix social security. why are the politicians not doing it now? they lack the courage. they desire to get reelected more than they desire to fix the country. that's the answer. >> i want to read an excerpt from "debt bomb" then i have a question to how it might relate to a story from yesterday. i'm a fan from the jack welch principle in reverse tr congress. he's the former ceo of general electric used the 10% rule to

maintain productivity. the bottom 10% of the company was replaced with new employees. a better approach for congress would be fire 90% of members every election and keep the productive 10%. we have a problem in washington with what you were just saying because everybody is there to get reelected. they are also falling victim or prey or being weak to special interests and big corporations, are they not? >> i don't think the problem -- first of all, i say that tongue in cheek. i have a lot of admiration for the way he ran g.e. i don't think their special interest or big corporations are the problem. i think desire to be in power is the problem. short term thinking is the problem. you think short term because you have an election coming up.

i think the pair dox in america, what america is looking for is leadership. people are willing to speak to them like they are adults. talk about the real problems. then say here are the solutions. let's work on it. >> you have a section in your book, practical steps for the citizen. one step they can take is the position of term limits. now we have, theoretically, term limits available to us called the election process. how do you impose term limits an when did you come to believe it was a critical component? >> i believed it from the first time i ran for congress. i said i would serve three terms and go home. i did. if you look at history, look at the early first 100 years of this country. we didn't have long term politicians. people serve for a period of time and went home. people that came to washington

came with a real world of experience that was outside of public service. >> they had real jobs. >> they had real jobs, knowledge and brought the knowledge to critical decisions of today. what we have today is a large number of people with no experience. they are wonderful people, their hearts are great but lack real world experience. >> let's talk about people doing things right, really quickly. we brought up ron white. a guy that took a stand on medicare. he's now being shunned and democratic caucus meetings. basically ostracized because he talked about medicare. >> why is that? the politician carries a wedge issue to get reelected. ron wyden says we are all lying to people on medicare. in five years, there's no way it's going to be what it is today. we can't borrow enough money.

he's made the assessment we have to fix it. what are the ways to fix it? micromanage it from a board in washington or you can say let's use the premium support system and do it over a period of time and give people some choice and let market factors work in that. ron is one of the persons i would think a senior would say gosh, he's really looking out for me. the context isn't that you can leave medicare alone. we can't. nobody will stand-up and say that. >> that's what's so preverse about the whole thing. jon meacham, those who claim they are trying to protect medicare are like a doctor that opens a cancer patient, looks at cancer, closes him up and says you are healthy. instead of closing him up and saying we are going to have to make really tough decisions to keep you alive. >> what i'm curious about is the

dynamic and proportion of responsibility both the leaders and the led. that is, we live in a country where to quote, paraphrase governor romney, corporations or people, special interests, too. you can term limit congress. you can talk about the political class. at the end of the day, the federal government is by and large a cash transfer mechanism with money going to the broad american middle class. if the people don't decide that they want to get serious about the long term debt, the leaders obviously aren't going to react. >> the purpose for the book is educate america on what's coming, how it's going to impact them and is it not time to change. the fact is, it is the vast majority of people. when we have private conversations, everybody knows we have to do these things.

in 2022, the only thing that will be running from the federal government is medicare, social security and interest on the debt. no other government. people say it's not true. >> it's math! >> it's math. what's going to happen in a short period of time, two to three years, the international financial community, all the money out of europe and japan runs here because we are the least wilted rose in the vase. it's then going to start running back out. people are going to say, we are not loaning you the money at the interest rate. here is the other point i would make. politicians aren't going to make these choices until the pain is evident. the pain is rising interest rates. if we go back to historic rates on our debt, in other words, aaa plus debt, with a historic rate, it's almost 6%. it adds $700 billion a year to our budget. >> so, i have a question about we were talking leadership and

math. i would like to bring fairness into it and taxes and ask you about the sunday new york times piece about apple. >> absolutely. i'm livid about that. >> do you think these companies should get a holiday to bring their money back from overseas? >> i think there are two different things, mika. first of all, we have a tax code. why should apple pay at 10% and some other company that can't export their technology -- >> a small business in oklahoma -- >> why are they paying 35%. let's get rid of the loopholes. here is what it is. if you pay taxes there, there's no penalty to bring it home. what's happening now on our system is everybody that's successful worldwide is keeping their capital out of here and it's invested somewhere other than america. let's reform the tax code. that's my criticism of the president. put a plan on the table.

build confidee in what the tax code is going to be. lower the rates. broaden the base. eliminate the deductions. what you will see is economic growth of 4.5% to 5%. >> that's great. would you vote for or against a repatriation holiday for companies lobbying for one to bring their money back in at a lower tax rate. >> i would do anything i could to send a signal to business we want capital brought into this country. >> so that's a yes? >> it's a yes, but i sent a note when the story came out. i said we have to look at this. he's been working. these tax havens where you can pay no taxes. it's not just the caribbean. it's ireland. that's how they did it. >> i don't understand the yes. if you do support that, then they can bring the money back in

and in 2004, they had one. a holiday. the money was not used for job creation, all the things they promised to use it for. >> i agree. if you do that, you have to have hard controls on where the money goes. you can't just do that. you have to reform the tax code. if we don't reform our corporate tax code, we are in a global economy. we are not competitive now. we have the highest tax in the world. those with intellectual property can move it offshore to get down. why g.e.? there's a lot of consternation on why they are paying no taxes. i would say that's a stupid tax code and we need to reform it, get rid of the loopholes, the good old boy, i have made something for me. clean it out. make it transparent and fair. >> you and president obama were friends in the senate. >> mm-hmm. >> we like him.

we have spent time with him. we like him personally, respect him as a man, a father, a husband. great intellect. why is it that this president, i mean he's president of the united states, he's been sitting in the oval office for three years. why hasn't he pushed for tax reform on a grand scale to make apple and other corporations pay their fair share? why hasn't he pushed for medicare and social security reform? he says all the right things but doesn't step up when push comes to shove. what do you think it is about this president? a guy you worked with, know and respect. >> he knows it has to be done. i can't answer that question for him. we have had conversations where i have actually believe if we could create a grand bargain, he would go for that. >> you think he would? >> i believe him when he tells me that.

>> the grand bargain, you change entitlements. >> more tax revenues. >> reform the tax code, the whole works, i think he would go for that. how do you create a political dynamic where it's safe? that's why nothing is happening in washington. >> you and i hate taxes. >> i actually -- i don't hate taxes. i hate taxes where we treat people differently because they are well connected. >> same here but, you do understand or other republicans understand there will never be a deal with democrats unless we, republicans are willing to give on new revenue and democrats are willing to give on big entitlement cuts. do you agree with that? >> i agree. >> when you talk about no common ground or no sanity, which we heard earlier today, there is one piece of intellectual common ground here, which is you have

been speaking in jacksonian terms you don't want people with connections or special privileges to benefit. it is a fundamental tenant of liberalism. fdr liberalism. even things out. truman said a president is supposed to look after the little guy with no pull. republicans want to let the little guy become the big guy. with that common sense of purpose does it get overwhelmed by, as you say, the day-to-day pressures of the cycle. >> it's the election cycle. everybody is waiting to do the right thing on the barrage of the next election. instead of fixing things, there's the next election. that's why i tell you, you want people to come for a short period of time and say i don't care about getting reelected.

senator ron johnson, one of the freshest ideas to come to the senate in a long time. he doesn't care. he cares about our country, he's going to work to fix it. if he doesn't get reelected that's fine. he had a better job back in wisconsin. people who have benefited in this country from our country won't enter the political arena because of the nastiness of it. they won't make the sacrifice to come. >> because of us. >> well -- >> not because of us, because of you, specifically. yeah. yeah. >> it's -- >> the book is "the death bomb." thank you very much. up next, insight into the raid that killed osama bin laden. jim miklaszewski joins us. michael leiter was inside the room as they carried out their mission. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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in the aftermath of the raid on the compound pouring through the stash becomes priority number one. more than 200 analysts search for plots against america. their work, wrapped in secret si. access to the highly classified hall is given to a select few outside the intel community. for this program, our team in concert with nbc news is given an exclusive briefing. >> for years intelligence officials said his role with al qaeda was reduced to an inspirational leader. they found not only was he in charge, but he was just as dangerous as ever. >> that was a clip from discovery channel "secrets of bin laden's lair." joining us is jim miklaszewski

and the director of the counterterrorism where he served under bush and president obama, michael leichter. thank you for being on the show this morning. jim, good to see you. >> you bet, mika. >> it's an incredible story, without politicizing it, looking back one year, your reflections on that day, is it describable what it was like to be in that room? >> no. it's hard to believe it's been a year. the focus in that room, i think the pride everyone took in all the steps that led up to that day, the work that got started under president bush with president obama, the s.e.a.l.s. it's a day government worked the way it was supposed to. it was amazing. >> was there a moment it was clear it was done?

>> there was. we had the initial call from the s.e.a.l.s when they called geronimo, the code word for they think it's bin laden. i don't think people celebrated yet. it was still the middle of the night in pakistan. later, when we saw the photo, we knew it was bin laden, the teams were out of harm's way. it was an exhilaration. it was a combination of relief and satisfaction. a lot of hugs in the room with people you spent ten years with trying to hunt down this man. >> jim miklaszewski, military campaigns have always been inner twined with political campaigns. unfortunately, it's happened today and over the past week. what are you hearing inside the pentagon about this very successful military operation being turned in and fathered by both sides?

>> as michael pointed out, much of this began during the bush administration. it was accelerated by president obama. not a lot of people pay attention or give enough credit to those relentless air strikes carried out by the unmanned drones. it was six months before bin laden was killed, i was sitting in the pentagon talking to a senior official. during that meeting he was giddy. finally, i said what's going on here. he said we are kicking the crap out of al qaeda. his words, exactly. those strikes helped to eliminate those mid and upper level leaders that were so critical to carrying out the kind of sophisticated coordinated attacks that al qaeda was no longer capable of when osama bin laden was killed. >> mike barnicle, i have had friends inside the cia since i was on the armed services committee. there are quite a few that were

not fans of barack obama when he came into office and was discouraged by the fact we are killing suspects instead of grabbing them and getting intelligence. that said, most of them have told me over the past year we are just absolutely terrorizing the terrorists. we are killing the drones we have completely got them out of their game. >> clearly, the evidences of the drone attacks are amped up considerably under president obama. each and every day, the president of the united states gets a threat assessment early in the morning. while it's a year since osama bin laden was taken off by the navy s.e.a.l.s that day, it begs the question, what else is there in pakistan? who else is in pakistan and what is the threat assessment existing today within pakistan? >> there's a threat from pakistan. al qaeda is not totally dead there. you have the pakistani taliban

that's been the cause of lots of deaths in pakistan and was behind the plot to bomb times square. you have a network that is still a serious threat to u.s. troops in afghanistan. there's still a threat there. what he's hearing about is out of yemen and nigeria and north africa and somalia and home grown terrorists. the bin laden strike was big. there are other places he's hearing about every day. not the same threat add 9/11 but a threat. >> to what extent do you connect the size of troop presence in afghanistan. >> the size is critical to, i think, trying to limit the ability for al qaeda to

reconstitute. the larger force is important for securing the ground in a way that large areas of afghanistan are more immune to the threat. the stability of the government in afghanistan is a different issue. as a threat to the united states, the forces are still necessary. >> jim, tonight actually is it tonight? i think. rock center -- >> tomorrow. >> tomorrow night, rock center is going inside the situation room. what -- what from all you have heard, what, what was, you think, the most dramatic moment that day when the decision was made to go after bin laden. >> when the helicopter got up draft that took out the lift and the pilot so expertly managed to nose the aircraft into the ground to prevent it from

gyrating if it were to crash and land everybody safely. the helicopter was not recoverable, obviously. in fact, everybody was able to pile out uninjured and carry out that mission. quickly, to follow up on what michael said about yemen, u.s. counterterrorism consider al qaeda and yemen to be the most serious threat to the united states. it's the one element that has the potential to carry out strikes against u.s. targets. they have the master bomb maker who put together the underwear bomb, ink cartridge bomb and implanted a bomb surgically inside his brother to kill a saudi official. they consider that so important both the cia and the u.s. military have ramped up their

predator strikes inside al qaeda targets in yemen today. there's a warning of sorts. there's no specific threat but a reminder was put out to airlines and security officials to be especially individual lent on this day even though al qaeda has no history of staging attacks on any anniversaries. nevertheless, everybody is on their toes. >> jim, he planted a bomb inside his brother? >> he did. he sacrificed his brother. the saudi officials survived. it was originally called a butt bomb and later called it a body bomb. >> it's too early for that. >> it's a little too early. it is an unlucky draw as a brother. >> any brother-in-law bombs? >> okay. jim, thank you.

>> all right, jim, thank you for a term that will stay with me and the 13-year-old boys watching this show with their parents as they get ready for this show. >> watching the show, how about on the show. thank you very much. you don't need to write it down. trust me. >> you can catch secrets of bin laden's lair. we just discovered one of them on the discovery channel tonight. >> michael, please come back. thank you. >> we are so sorry. it happens when ever we bring him on the show. >> i have to change my contract. >> it's okay. it's easy. still ahead, money, power and wall street. the financial meltdown. keep it here on "morning joe." with the spark cash card from capital one, sven's home security gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! how does this thing work? oh, i like it!

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♪ >> we are still talking about abbey with meacham and mary crawford. >> thank you, mary. >> do you know veep is great. >> i can't wait to see him. >> dr. brzezinski didn't let them watch tv growing up.

>> i don't have a lot of time on my hands. >> turn on the film projector at night. >> let's look at what i have said together. >> they would chew on beet roots and watch the day's performances. >> finger paint organically? >> exactly. >> i would like to do news if i could. >> don't do too much. >> occupy wall street protesters are looking to start again after a quiet winter. they plan to join other organizations to mark international workers day. they are calling people in 135 cities to avoid banking and shopping. >> i wish i heard this at 4:00 a.m. this morning. >> all of a sudden, you would be part of the 99%. the protests are going to kick off in a half hour from now. in an attempt to prepare for the events, federal and local authorities have begun the

crackdown on occupy protesters in new york. at least three people were questioned by the nypd about their intentions for today's protests. >> why is that? >> what do you mean why is that? >> is this a minority report with tom cruise where you arrest people before they do something? >> they were asked about their intentions. >> if somebody asked me about my intention to protest it would be to tell you to shut the hell up. >> there you go. >> seriously. >> why are you interviewing people the day before? do you think they're going to tell you the truth? >> who is doing the interviewing? >> fbi. hey, fbi, you have better things to do. >> up next, obama unplugged. the editor of rolling stone joins us, januarien wehner. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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i roasted the president, republican candidates, members of the press that were there, i made fun of the governor of new jersey, chris christie. he was a good sport. kim kardashian laughed at the terrible things i said. one person who did not laugh is barbara walters. there was no facebook or google. a tweet is something barbara walters gave her dog. >> say the word tweet three times. >> tweet, tweet, tweet. >> good. yeah. >> perfect. i didn't mean to upset you,

barbara. it was a little joke. if it offended you, i'm very sorry. >> 42 past the hour. here with us now, jann wenner who is here to talk about his issue of rolling stone magazine. good to have you on the show. >> good to be here. >> this is the langest interview the president has done. >> their limit is usually 15 minutes if you get one. they are careful about not giving them out anymore. they changed policy. he has a lot to do. getting an hour and ten minutes is rare. reflective of our good relationship with him an what we have been doing. his appreciation with the forum where he can speak fully and completely and explain himself. you don't get that. when you read the interview, you have an elaborate way of seeing

what he's thinking and who he is. >> you know, it would be easy for a conservative to say of course a democratic president would be interviewed by rolling stones except for the fact over the past two years, rolling stone went after the administration on some issues with a vengeance. was there any strain between you and the president? >> no. i think they have a bigger picture. the crystal thing. various other things, energy policy, environmental policy, drug policy. we make our position clear. there are many areas we would like to see more done and we are disappointed in the record of the administration. maybe it makes him more sensitive to our needs. the constituency is -- he feels to need to explain himself and

explains himself well. what about this. what's up with that. he says what's up with that is this. anybody has to say, it's rational and thoughtful. look, maybe i can't give you the whole loaf on this issue or that issue, but you have a lie. >> do you believe that, i mean is there a way you could have believed back in '67 or '68 -- was it '68 when "rolling stone started? >> '67. >> did you know you would it down with the president of the united states every year? did it start with bill clinton? >> yeah. that was actually our second interview with clinton. they were interviewing carter during that time. i spent time on the road. no. but, to your larger point is, i still can't believe that we get to "rolling stone" my rock and

roll magazine gets to go to the oval office to talk to the president of the united states. we have been doing it for a long time. i'm impressed. >> crazy. >> how have your readers, your demographic changed over the years. i ask because of the president getting to that hour long interview. the average age increaseed from 21 to 28, 29 reflecting influence and causes. i think the broader point is that in addition to the teenage audience when we put justin bieber on the cover. it's a highly educated intelligence. if you look at the magazine, tough be able to read and read at length. there's tough stuff in there. >> what are you going to do? >> yeah. >> we send you that briefing -- the digest. >> it's an audio briefing.

pictures. >> very intelligent. it's a liberal audience, educated. it's high in terms of the number of people registered to vote and actually vote, the professions and all that. he is going to the democratic leftish leaning audience. >> have you found the now boomer audience has stayed with you since they discovered you in the late '60s? >> yeah. we have an audience that ranges from the early '60s to college age. it's broad and wide. it has to do with the broad appeal of music. it's not been a generation gap following me and my age group like between me and my parents. it has to do with the commonality. >> how have you found that obama has changed in the four years you have been talking to him? >> i think he's wiser, smarter,

quicker on his feet. his reaction and intuition about things. he's no longer trapped in that somewhat of a conceit that somehow he's going to be able to work with the other side. reconcile people. bring people together. it's a by gone fantasy. >> that's interesting. >> yeah. >> let me ask you, let's go back -- >> i think he would still like to. >> yeah. >> this week with history. since your first "rolling stone" cover in '67 with john lennon, to the most iconic and tragic cover in december, 1980 where john and yoko. i guess that's probably the one that sold the most and probably the most famous rolling stone cover. are there -- is there an issue or two over the past 30, 35 years that stand out to you?

>> well, there's a bunch of them. a lot have to do with reporting on the crystal piece. >> let's talk about that. that was, just this past year talking about how vibrant rolling stone is. it's one of the most important pieces of journalism in the magazine's history. >> right. and of our time. there was firing by the president of the a theater commander in an ongoing war. we have done a lot of really standard reporting. it goes back to the patty kidnapping. we broke that case open. lots of things. obscure things. we covered the helen lane cells before it became a best selling book. numerous stuff. we are entwined with john lennon. let's trade places. nobody ever talked to the beatles. >> let me ask you that, how do

you get into the white house? how do you get a 1970 john lennon to sit down. that is, that will be, 100 years from now, that will be the interview after we are all gone that people will read. >> yeah. >> because lennon lays it bare. how did you get that interview? >> i had been writing him and going back and forth. the magazine became friends with him. we published a favorite picture of him and oko naked. i would go to london and try to see him. i think in these cases, all these cases, they saw what the magazine was and what it was doing. they liked it and approved of it. they wanted to be and wanted to be a part of it. they really meant to support the magazine and help us along. they saw it as part of their peace crusade. we get these stories because

people respect what we do. they have seen our record. it's done with dignity and style and class. if you are photographed you are interviewed by top flight people. it is serious things. our record in terms of public affairs, national affairs through many, many years is so strong that we command the respect of politicians. >> were you shocked when john lennon started spilling everything? there was one point where you were talking about how well paul mccartney could play guitar on mother nature's son and he said and so could john denver. there were these shots at oth others. >> i had seen him in the months

before. i was prepared for him to say this stuff. he was in the middle of therapy. whatever is on my mind, say it. he would not spare anybody but it shocked the world when it came out. the beatles had been really protected and kept in their capsule and their bubble. so for the lead of the beatles it was like the dream is over. at that point he said that every concert they got to they would never see teenage kids by the end. they would go back stage or front rows and meet kids in wheelchairs. john lennon said people looked

at us like we were jesus. >> it is fascinating to hear me talk about john lennon on the cover in 1970 in the same conversation that you are justin beiber on the cover. >> my view is that music is music. we cover popular culture as well as music and politics. popular culture i think you learn a lot about this country. there has been a morones conversation about this country and the way we live and popular culture than there has been in general in religion and politics. i think it's very valuable. i'm not to say that justin beiber in and of itself -- >> you don't have bieber fever? >> i don't have bieber fever. >> i confess. >> i bet that issue sold.

>> that's a consideration. >> thank you very much. the interview with the president is in the latest issue of "the rolling stones." at bank of america, we're lending an

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i agree with the romney campaign that using the osama

bin laden killing in order to say that obama did it and romney may not have done it as a campaign ad is one of the most despicable things you can do. >> welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set we have mike and john. so this is a day that i do remember. i may not know the day of the week but it's the one-year anniversary. >> people don't talk about this. >> you would think this would be such a big deal. it was a year ago that osama bin laden was killed. nobody is talking about it. nobody's bringing this up. wouldn't you expect in the middle of the campaign something like this? >> i don't get it. i don't get why this has become such an issue politicly.

i just heard huffington. i don't get why anyone would think that the president is wrong or is using it to say a year ago today we made the decision to go after osama bin laden. >> it's fine to wallow around in it. >> look at the history of politics in the country. start with the late '60s. they hung that around every democratic. look what they did to national security and john kerry. do you think that they would not be accusing barack obama of being soft on everything had this decision not been carried out successfully? >> i think you just put it all in proper context. what say you john meacham? >> i think it is totally politicizing it. it is a religion with which you do not agree. it means the other guy is

beating your brains in and you don't have anything to do about it. i thought the ad was fascinating on 100 different levels. one is bill clinton as witness for the prosecution is historically fascinating. and it's political. guess what? it's going to be a close reelection and as mike says democrats have spent every year since 1968 on the defensive about american power. and so the guy -- the president who learned to box from his step father by taking punches is punching. >> the only thing i will say here and mike is right. republicans have politicized this and democrats have in the past. there are some noble examples of men who rise above mere politics

in the midst of sacrifice by men and women of the military and the country as a whole. you are going to be writing a biography one day on one of those men, the last gentleman. who refused to make political hay over the wall coming down, the end of the soviet union? refused. in fact, germans will still tell you today that their country would not be unified if george w.h. bush did not act as he did in 1989 and refused to politicize it. >> that's true. i will just say that to my mind i probably would have if i had been making this i probably would have been more implicit and less heavy-handed about romney. you can talk about the courage to make this call which i think was a courageous call.

>> it was very courageous. >> if it had not worked the people who are saying this is all outrageous would be beginning the year calling him weak and trying to impeach him. >> if the shoe were on the other foot if the operation had failed republicans would be blasting away with both barrels. >> it's a good debate. i'm going to show you what mitt romney said and then i'm going to tell you about a conversation i had with alex before the show. >> romney gets a little tipsy and begins to turn off her martini. >> everything is good. mitt romney is pushing that and gets a message from the obama campaign. that he would not have gone after the terper leader the same way the president did. take a listen to mitt romney.

at a news conference president obama reacted to the comment referring that he wouldn't move heaven and earth spending billions of dollars trying to catch one person. the president addressed critics saying his administration is putting too much emphasis on the al qaeda leaders death. >> i hardly think you have seen excessive celebration taking place here. i recommend that people take a look at people's previous statements in terms of whether they thought it was appropriate to take out bin laden. i assume that people meant what they said when they said it. that's been at least my practice. i said that i would go after bin laden if we had a clear shot at

him and i did. if there are others who have said one thing and not suggest they do something else then i would go ahead and let them explain it. >> many have come out strongly against the president using the death of osama bin laden for political gain. this written obama making me feel queasy because his nonstop campaigning is looking, well, sleazy -- his ad suggesting that mitt romney wouldn't have killed osama bin laden. in the wall street journal a year later bin laden is entitled to a victory lap and to tout his record as commander in chief, even if the self-praise is a

little over the top. but that's not enough-it never is enough. stay classy, chicago. >> you got to love a ron burgundy reference. >> that's good. >> i agree with half oft that. the first half. you could have done this ad -- this ad could have done in a way that was entirely about the difficulties of beeing commande in chief. just by implication i made the call. what would the other guy do? instead it has turned into a tactical conversation when it really isn't. one of the two most important things you hire a president to do. >> wouldn't you argue this is one of the most symbolic events. >> couldn't have gotten done by the last one. and then i called alex before

the show after reading dana and i said didn't george w. bush campaign on fear. didn't a lot of people vote on fear? didn't they politicize a lot of what they were doing in terms of sending thousands of soldiers to war, perhaps some wars without precondition? it was all part of the campaign, wasn't it? >> ask john kerry. silver star purple heart and made him out to be a weakling in 2004. if there is an error i would submit that president obama maybe should have spent more time on the phone with president george h.w. bush and talked to him about how to frame these things up. here is a man who put together a coalition for gulf war 1. you never heard from him about

the due diligence and the degree of difficulty in that. >> now you have john mccain who rightly is with his code that heroes don't talk about what they have done coming out on the other side. he is attacking the president. people are attacking romney. in the middle of this are the seals who risked their lives. if you don't think they aren't rolling their eyes at president obama going you're a hero. >> he is not saying that, though. >> did you take the shot? because a lot of seals are speaking out against it. and then they are looking at the republicans saying you guys are politicizing this when some seals who are democrats would say both sides are going there. i want to talk quickly about jimmy carter. you are a historian so they say.

you are working on jefferson. have you buried thomas jefferson yet? he liked that stuff. >> when does your jefferson biography come out? >> the week after the election. >> good. i can't wait to read it because jefferson really is -- there hasn't been a definitive biography that in the past 30 or 40 years that have -- >> my argument is that the contradictions and the sphinx-like things begin to fall in place when you see him for what he was, an american politician. most of his working life he was seeking or holding office. >> was he like fdr in that he was all things to all people? is it that complex? >> he hated personal

confrontation. >> a lot like me. >> people just like fdr would leave the room thinking he agreed with them because he didn't want to start a face to face fight. he said never kwaural with anyone. he was a politician who had an overarching vision but who knew when to depart from dogma and govern. we can-can talk in political science terms. thomas jefferson had to win elections. president obama has to win elections. the one problem with the george h.w. bush analogy, he was a great man and he lost. >> which, of course, republicans wanted him to exploit the end of the cold war. any political thinker would and

he refused to do it. very good point. he lost. >> like in '08 all the press wants me to be like i was. >> because of the ambeen i wasn't able to read your blog. hoover carter and cheap shots. as a conservative who has been criticizing i say enough is enough. all one has to do is read a few pages of jimmy carter's white house diary or his bible guide to get a better understanding of the challenges that constant ly faced the man from plains when he lived at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. his were the same kind of monumental crisis that barack obama, george w. bush and bill

clinton. people should have to look elsewhere for cheap shots. >> i don't mean to laser focus in on mitt romney. it was just jarring yesterday him saying that of jimmy carter especially after desert 1, especially after jimmy carter tried to do that. said that wasn't the lope point of his service as national security advisor. it was the worst day of his life. it was probably one of the worst days of jimmy carter's life. again, i don't want to make too much of an offhanded remark in new hampshire. after four decades can we not leave jimmy carter alone and honor him for what he did for this country and move on? i have made the jokes just like hoover was the butt of all democrats jokes and even harry

truman said hoover didn't start the great depression more than i did. can't we just let it go? didn't it strike you as a cheap shot? >> it did especially because president carter made a very difficult decision. he paid a price for it in real time and has certainly paid a price for it historically. one of the great things about history is the central duty we owe to history is to rewrite it and always rethink it. it will be interesting to see as the revision happens how president carter stands given that he confronted all the issues that we have confronted for 30 years whether it is energy or terrorism in the middle east or economic growth. >> putting together a middle east peace plan that excluded

the possibility of a ground war in the middle east. >> there is also a threat of history that you can pull through george h.w. bush's president to the obama presidency. the reasons that they lost were not just -- it wasn't just one reason. the economy was the principle reason as the economy might be the princepable reason you win or lose this fall. >> president obama was about this close to facing the fate. who knows where we would be sitting right now. coming up next money power and wall street. a new documentary tells the inside story of the financial crisis and how we are returning to the same practices that

caused the melt down in the first place. first the forecast. this may 1st been a gloomy start from d.c. to new york. we are always watching rain exiting d.c. new york city only has a couple of minutes left. not going to be the case. you are in for a good deal of rain in southern new england from boston to hartford. the light rain is moving in now but should be steady by the early afternoon. the forecast today we are watching rain showers also areas of missouri. springfield, illinois could get thunderstorms. strong thunderstorms in the northern plains. isolated tornado chance in minnesota, minneapolis northward. you are watching "morning joe." it's been a gloomy start.

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i worked at the colorado springs mail processing plant for 22 years. we processed on a given day about a million pieces of mail. checks, newspapers, bills. a lot of people get their medications only through the mail. small businesses depend on this processing plant. they want to shut down 3000 post offices, cut 100,000 jobs. they're gonna be putting people out of work everywhere. the american people depend on the postal service.

you're holding banks responsible for leading less sophisticated officials down the wrong path. >> i would be responsible for that. >> that was the abusive derivatives. >> in every market there are abusives.

because of the opaqueness of the derivatives it was easier to abuse. >> what does that say about the profession? >> well, it obviously doesn't cover the profession in glory. when you go through a period like we did where really large amounts of money were available to individuals we are talking bonuses the incentive to cheat is very high. it's very high. >> 22 past the hour. that was a clip from front line's new documentary mini series airing on pbs. joining us now marty smith. good to have you back. how are you? >> good. good morning. >> we have been talking about this for several years now and things haven't changed, that there haven't been enough some would say regulations to put in place. too big to fail still exists. >> what we do in the fourth hour

of the series is look inside the culture of banking and try to understand that they can write a lot of rules in washington but until the incentive structures on wall street and the culture of high finance changes it is very hard to see why there would be fundamental change. bankers are very good at getting around regulations. they have done that for many, many decades. there is no reason to believe that they won't be able to continue to get around. what is happening in washington is like a bunch of generals getting together and going over the last war and trying to understand how they can prevent that same war from happening again. well, of course, what's going to happen next will come from another direction mptd it will be another kind of set of problems. >> you are talking about the culture on wall street not so long ago it was the bankers who were in charge. they look down on the traders as sort of these money grubbing types with dirty fingernails.

that has changed since the 1980s. it's the traders who are defining the culture. >> in the '90s you have an explosion of technology that empowers. now with the major investment banks you can have trading contributing 70, 80, 90% of the revenue of the bank. out of that pot of money it's about 2/3 of it coming from derivative trading. that's when you get into casino banking where you are basically selling bets and matching kounlter parties and taking fees in a very opaque market where you can take large spreads. >> looking deeper into the issue of culture, are you making a conclusion in this series that bonuses lead to a certain type of behavior or did i just pull that out incorrectly? >> no. i think any banker that i have

spoken with would agree with that. if i give you a $10 million incentive to as a journalist tell a story that -- your incentive is to cheat if you are looking at a $10 million rainbow. >> you say cheat. >> is that fair? this is really a pretty heavy assertion. >> this is made in the program by bankers. many of the people who are in the old traditional banking business, mergers and acquisitions, wealth management, the other side of the investment banking business look at the trading side of it and even some traders we talked to many people who were traders and they will make the same as you say allegation or assertion. >> in the clip we just showed, the gentleman says the

opaqueness of derivatives. when did the word "derivatives" become such a powerful instrument within the american banking industry? was it there 20 or 30 years ago? >> there has been futures trading, options trading, derivative trading for many, many years but with the explosion of technology and the development of more sophisticated financial derivatives in the mid to late '90s you had a real explosion in the business. it really expands from those years. >> this documentary is four hours. do you get into the role -- two things, the lack of a role with regulators playing in all of this that nobody saw anything

and the relationship between fanny and freddy and the united states congress? >> we look at this at the role of washington and reacting to the crisis and also the regulators inability to see the disaster coming. and we look at -- we talk to regulators who say they did not understand what was coming down. they didn't understand some of the fancier more sophisticated trading going on. we look at the explosion in housing and certainly fanny and freddie play a role in that. >> you talked about one hope for reform is changing the culture by changing incentives. what is the practical road ahead for that? is there one? >> i don't know the answer to that. we are asking hard questions of the bankers and regulators. at this point we had the financial reform act pass a couple of years ago but i think

most people don't understand that the rule writing process is an on going process and is very slow. 70% of the deadlines set by the legislation had been missed and so they're wrestling with trying to as i would put it, roll back time and separate proprietary trading and separate it from the commercial banking, the traditional loaning so that we don't put public money at risk again. that hasn't been put in place. that is the so-called vocal rules. the bank lobby has been very active. at this point it's a stalemate. >> you can catch part three tonight on pbs at 9:00. marty smith thank you very, very much. how would a parent handle

raising a teenage son in a country torn apart by religious conflict? that's the unique inspiration from the new film. she joins us next on "morning joe."

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that is funny. that is a scene from a new film about "where do we go now" about women who prevent men from going

to war. very nice to see you have and you on the show. this is funny. >> what a great concept. so you distract the idiot men. >> were those the troopers? >> yes. >> so you distract the men in the village from starting a religious war by hiring strippers and faking a miracle, doing all of these things. men are very easily distracted. >> they're idiots. >> even for more. >> talking about the concept. >> about a village you don't know really where it happens. you don't know that it is lebanon. you don't know when it is happening. it is a village where women are going to do everything they can to stop their men from fighting. this village is divided between christians and muslims. the story sounds tragic because

a lot of tragic things will happen in the film. you will laugh a lot because they come up with funny, ridiculous schemes out of despair. >> despair for so long. you grew up -- >> in a war torn country. >> in the early '80s. i know by 2005 a lot of us were hoping that beirut had seen the last of civil wars. where did you come up with this particular idea? >> this was a few years ago in 2008. i don't know if you know what happened but some unfortunate events between two opposing political parties led people to take weapons again in lebanon after having lived two decades of peace and believing peace was possible after the civil war. luckily it only lasted a few

weeks but then you think of the servitude and the situation and i had just learned i was going to be a mother for the first time. it does change your perspective on things and you think of this child and what kind of world it is. >> and how profoundly absurd. >> absolutely. because you see people who have succeeded in living together for such a long time. these people live in the same neighborhood, same building. they are friends. they share the same things. kids go to the same school and anything becomes an excuse for people to take weapons again. so this is a cry for help from a mother that is saying we have had enough. i have seen so many women -- not only women so many people in this country that have lost so much during the war and i'm

fascinated with all of these women in my family or women that i know that are still wearing black until now and that i don't know if they did forget what happened to their children. and i don't want to see this happen anymore. and it is completely absurd that we take weapons for any reason. >> for many americans just the name beirut conjures bad memories from the 1980s. from everything i have heard and read today it is a jewel of a city. can you describe what it is like? >> of course it is not the way it was 30 years ago. we are able to live together in peace. we are trying to control what's happening and we did control it. i'm talking about a conflict that has only lasted a few weeks and we were able to control it after a few weeks which was great. the problem is there is still a

lot of tension underneath and we are doing whatever we can to control this tension. and if we do succeed i think it's a huge example for the whole world. lebanon is a sort of laboratory for the whole world. if it works over all it will work everywhere else. we are 18 concessions living together. this thing is not only about a conflict between christians and muslims. it's a film about conflict everywhere. this conflict i feel is here. people don't take weapons but i feel the conflict between human beings. that's what i'm talking about. >> how much of the conflicts that you are talking about are about religion? and how much come cloaked in that language? >> for me it's not about religion. we could have created two new

religions in this film. we could have created -- it could have happened between two parties or two families or two friends or two races. i'm talking about the conflict between parties that are different but that do not tolerate this difference. this is something that we feel every day, everywhere. i feel it completely absurd when you take the bus or take the metro and you sit next to your neighbor and your shoulder is nearly touching his or her shoulder but you don't really look at this person. you don't say hi because you are scared. this is a tension i feel everywhere. it's not about religion. everybody has a right to exercise their own believes or their own ritual in the way they want. we need to respect that.

and to respect other people's difference. >> i feel that way about willy. >> i'm taking away sort of a universal message here about strife between human beings in the world and about men being idiots. where do we go now? opens in theaters in new york city and los angeles on friday, may 11th. >> can i ask quick one thing, a lot of us were very excited about what we saw in 2005 when the lebanese people went into the streets and protested. heart broke when civil war broke back out. in 2012 how do you feel? are you optimistic? >> you know if i had an answer to that question i wouldn't be asking this question where do we go now at the end of the film. i don't have an answer. it ends --

>> proving once again. >> i'm an idiot. >> it's not as simple as that. i don't believe men are stupid. it has always been the men that take the weapons and always the women that stay behind with the consequences whether we like it or not. we have to stop hiding behind our lady fingers and say this is the way it is. sometimes you need to exaggerate things to prove a point. you shouldn't forget that this is a film coming from lebanon, from a mother that has had enough and that wants to prove a point and wants to say out loud we have had enough. we want to live normally. sometimes you do need to exaggerate. >> thank you so much. we appreciate it. best of luck. i look forward to seeing that. more "morning joe" in just a moment. ♪

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want to do a little sports real quick? >> yeah. you want me to do it for you. >> those are the back pages of the paper. that's the daily news. new york post. >> this really kind of nails down the point of the last segment. >> they are very upset. they are talking about amare. we'll tell you why in a moment. miami heat and new york knicks. the heat blew the knicks out of

the building. last night a little bit closer. that is carmelo anthony. miami heat won by ten points. they are up two games in the series. the story is what happened after the game. amare seen leaving with a sling, bandaged arm, bandaged left hand. how did it happen? the result of him smashing the glass case. he got a bunch of stitches. the reports say he could be out the rest of the playoff series against the heat which since they are down 2-0 who knows how long it will be. he apologized saying i am so mad at myself right now. not proud of my actions. headed home for a new start. that is bad, bad news if he can't play. let's do some baseball.

b brewers, padres. ryan braun under suspicion of taking steroids. solo home run to start. this now a two-run home run in the next inning. can he make it three home runs in san diego? seventh inning becomes the first player to hit three home runs. by the way, added a triple. three home runs and a triple. 1975. >> anybody ever done that before? >> in detroit against the tigers. >> he's a rookie back in '75. >> that guy never takes steroids. why would he take steroids? >> he has been cleared and he's fine. there are ointments that you can go in and set something up for a rash or whatever it is. >> for other problems.

>> poison ivy. >> personal issues. >> stuff like that. eczema. there are all kinds of pointments he can get. >> i have horrible images in my head. >> the point is he is clean and he's a good ball player. so matt kemp who if you are voting right now is the mvp of the world. he is having an incredible season. he goes the other way. struck out there but big night for him. dodgers lost the game 6-2. here is what kemp did this year. 12 home runs. .417 batting average and 17 rbis in the month of april. he is only the third player since 1920 to put up those numbers. >> and today is the first day

of? >> may. that's vanderbilt. >> owning the dodgers. >> the best record in the national league. caps and rangers madison square gardens. caps need this one and they turn to that man, alexander ovechkin wins the face-off. caps win 3-2. series tied at one game to three on wednesday mptd . on the wezern conference. >> that was smooth and silky sports cast. >> takes care of whatever ails you. >> people don't want to hear about you and ointments. they really don't. >> the best of late night. sorry. sore knee. blast of cold feels nice. why don't you use bengay zero degrees? it's the one you store in the freezer. same medicated pain reliever used by physical therapists.

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i roasted the president and made fun of the governor of new jersey. most everyone was good sports. kim kardashian laughed at the terrible things i said about her. one person who did not laugh was barbara walters. >> 16 years ago a tweet was something barbara walters gave

her dog. >> say the word treat three times. >> treat, treat, treat. >> good barbara. >> perfect. >> and i didn't mean to upset you, barbara. it was a joke. and if it offended you i'm very sorry. >> here is a mitt romney conversation with teens to put them at ease.

>> go crazy, mitt. the number one way mitt romney begins conversations with teens, "didn't i fire your father?" . most of the major airports should be okay today. late in the day today strong storms near minneapolis. have a great day. yeah! if you're looking for a place to get together, you came to the right place. because here at hotels.com, we're only about hotels.

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and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers. this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way. devry university, proud to support the education of our u.s. olympic team. we learned today. >> i learned from david

letterman about the new sport of sport ball. >> i learned from michael and jim that on the first anniversary of the killing of osama bin laden the world remains a truly dangerous place. >> i learned from tom coburn if we don't decide to do something about the debt congress will never do it. >> one of those days where you feel like you shouldn't have gotten out of bed. that's me toy. >> i learned powers of persuasion to bring about a historic middle east plan in 1979. way too early. we'll see you tomorrow. one year after the killing of osama bin