the show to london during the olympicsful we'll be there late july. no, no, you guys aren't coming. no, no, everybody is going to come, i swear. we will be there. you can come see the show. it will be great. there's your shoutout for london and a visit to london myself. >> we didn't want to go to london anyways. >> no, no, you can come. >> up making sure i get the last piece of chocolate birthday cake before my 14-year-old son. he's not the only one with a birthday today. you have a birthday today, willie. >> i do. >> happy birthday, willie. >> thank you, thank you. me and the late great james brown, the godfather of soul, may 3. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ you're so vain ♪ you probably think this song is about you ♪ . >> this afternoon, an announcement from the one-time front-runner for the presidential nomination. >> today i'm suspending my campaign. >> well, there you have it. he is suspending it, like what

we all had to do to our disbelief when he thought he was going to be president. >> but suspending the campaign does not mean suspending citizenship. calista and i are committed to be active citizens. >> wouldn't it be awesome, though, if it did mean suspending citizenship? like if you lose a presidential primary, you're deported. wouldn't that be awesome? i don't think anybody thought they were, you know, going to leave the country, but it's good to know you'll be active citizens and be around to haunt people on jury duty. all right. ♪ >> well, you know, welcoming you, mika, and joe, and harold ford, and willie soon to join us. >> well, that's fantastic. >> times square. . welcome to "morning joe" as we take a live look at times square in new york city. i think it's going to be another rainy day. we'll see. mike, are you -- are we sober today? >> yes. >> are we good? >> yes. >> ok, good.

with us on set we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. he looks handsome. >> he's going to be in all linen white by the summer. also msnbc analyst and former democratic congressman harold ford jr. good morning. >> good to see you. >> good morning. good to see you. >> how are you? >> good, brother. >> what's going on? >> just working. >> you're a man about town. have you been to any knicks or rangers games? >> i've been on the road a lot. i'm going to the rangers game monday with my dear friend who owns the caps. so i'm looking forward to that. >> didn't you figure? >> triple overtime last night. >> but you know he's going to the hockey game. hottest ticket in town with the owner. >> he is an old dear personal friend who has done well. >> well, you have old friends like mitt romney who owns hockey

teams. >> it's the birthday boy! how old are? >> 37. >> what? >> 37 years old. >> that's so young. >> is there a more meaningless number than 37? what is 37? it's nothing. >> blah. >> yeah. maybe you shouldn't even celebrate. >> i'm not really. truly, i'm not. >> ok. i understand. >> you celebrate every birthday. >> ok. >> celebrate every birthday with your family, always. >> but you're so cute. >> thank you. >> i've got socks older than you. >> perhaps the ones you're wearing today. let's get to the news. that's nice, willie. >> thank you. >> harold is going to the rangers game. of course, he's going with the owner. >> this is not someone i met on the campaign trail. this is an old dear friend. >> sure. like mitt romney, have you old dear friends that own nascars and hockey teams. >> you have friends who are big hedge fund managers. >> and your horse naturally won.

straight out of the carly simon song. >> it's actually the perfect transition. >> i wish my hedge fund friends owned hockey teams. >> they own the league. just ask them. former house speaker newt gingrich officially suspended his presidential campaign yesterday. >> harold ford, willie, that's a wicked windsor knot. >> what? >> what's a windsor knot? >> it's a single. >> what was the letterman joke? >> that's a sick windsor. >> that's a sick windsor knot. i still laugh about that. >> what is a windsor knot? >> alex, do you have a picture of scream? can i have it? thank you. >> that's like a triple or something. >> that is a triple windsor. love it. >> all right. so this is me. yeah. that sold for $119.9 million, just by the way. and i really relate to this picture, especially about right now. all right. thank you. let's go to the news now. newt gingrich officially suspended his presidential

campaign yet, calling it a truly wild ride. >> truly. >> yeah. absolutely. and despite his promise to rally behind the former massachusetts governor, gingrich's support came more in the form of an attack on the president than a full throated endorsement of romney. >> as to the presidency, i am asked sometimes is mitt romney conservative enough. and my answer is simple. compared to barack obama? you know, this is not a choice between mitt romney and ronald reagan. this is a choice between mitt romney and the most radical leftist president in american history. >> another good one. another good endorsement. >> you get a big kick out of that, don't you? >> i don't get a kick out of it at all. i don't understand why people can't get behind mitt romney. i could endorse mitt romney right now.

i know enough good things about him to make a good solid endorsement. i don't get it. >> harold, it is interesting that this republican field, they lose -- listen, i -- you know, i'm not in politics. i'm supposed to analyze. that's what i do. so i can say mitt romney is not a conservative guy. but if you're in there, if you're in the game, if you're going to endorse, endorse the guy on your team full -- you know, the full throated endorsement or just stay home. and it's not just newt here at all. we're not picking on them. it's santorum. it was marco rubio. it's all of these people who feel the need to cover their backs. and say, well, you know, he's good but he's not that good. >> four years ago, democrats, we were still in a battle, senator clinton, senator obama were still going at one another, as you remember. it was not until june. as a matter of fact, i think around this time four years ago we had the great terry mcauliffe on the show talking about how this race was still a competitive one in a lot of ways.

two, rick santorum and newt gingrich will be afterthoughts in the next few days. voters aren't worried about that. conservative or not, you're not going to be swayed by what the two of them do. this race is now going to get joined. it's going to get more interesting. and i think largely it will depend on what we talked about on "meet the press" a few weeks ago. whichever candidate is able to get to first talking about the future, how america competes for new investments, new jobs, whoever is able to do that best is going to be advantaged. >> so, yeah, i remember back, mike, four years ago, hillary clinton and bill clinton, they basically were called racist by obama supporters. >> correct. >> they used the race card against two people that fought their whole life for civil rights. it couldn't have been any more personal than that. and yet hillary and bill both lined up behind barack obama. but these republicans don't seem to be able to do that. >> well, in the case of gingrich and santorum, you get the

distinct sense that there is a residual bitterness in both of them toward the campaign that was waged against them. both of them had difficulty raising money to conduct their campaign. and they were vilified by the romney campaign in terms of commercial, aimed at them. all the money in the world. there was a residual in both of them towards romney as evidenced by what you see there. >> get over it, though. again, i talk about hillary clinton. >> there's a big difference. santorum and gingrich are nowhere near where clinton was in her standing in the party. so if you add the two of them together, they still don't come close to her stature in the party. >> i know. but i think that's even more of a reason for both of them to know the smart thing to do is go ahead and endorse him and be excited about it. >> but their lack of endorsement won't impact him as much. >> i know that. but, mika, this whole conversation really started with

mika wondering why these people can't endorse romney. if you're going to endorse him, endorse him. and if i were excited about mitt romney, i'd say so. >> how would you do it? >> i'd say so. i'd say this guy is as exciting as a sweaty game of sports ball. >> at times we have walked away thinking that they are good people. >> yes. i could make an ens dorsment that were strong if you were still in politics. but i'm not. so i can just say i'm not really excited. >> the argument you hear is this is a leverage play, they want to meet with mitt romney privately and tell them what they want before they -- >> that's just not smart. not going to happen. >> but they don't have the leverage. as harold points out, that's not hillary clinton going to barack obama and saying i want to speak here, i want this job. mitt romney can say, bye-bye. i don't need it. >> no, he doesn't. and, you know, the thing is, and i actually -- i wrote something fairly positive i think for newt last night. when i say this this morning, i

don't mean to be personal against newt at all. but mitt romney doesn't want newt to speak at the convention. >> right. >> no, he doesn't. he just doesn't. >> right. >> so right there, newt is not holding a lot of cards. santorum is not holding a lot of cards. i think they have to figure out a way to be more excited and give him what he needs. >> well, spokesperson for both gingrich and santorum say likely endorsements will follow face-to-face meetings with romney. michele bachmann, however, is putting her support behind the presumptive nominee. romney, meanwhile, is looking to turn the conversation back to the economy after sparring with the obama campaign advisers who suggested that romney wouldn't have ordered the raid that killed osama bin laden. >> still talking about that? >> for the second time in a week -- no, we're moving on.

oh. all right. mitt romney aevoked former president jimmy carter. >> leave him alone. he's 87. >> what the president has done, and i think unknowingly, never having spent any time in the private sector himself, is what the president did was one item after another make it harder and harder for small business to thrive and to grow. and to start up. it was the most anti-small business administration i've seen probably since carter. who would have guessed we'd look back at the carter years as the good old days? >> why? why does he keep going after an 87-year-old former president? i just -- i mean -- >> i don't know. >> democrats went after hoover. i guess democrats are still going after hoover. but, you know, you can knock jimmy carter for a lot of things, and i have for the years, but not hostile to small

business. he was a conservative democrat. >> yeah. he would be a blue dog democrat. >> he was challenged by the liberal wing of the party. >> democrats today, nancy pelosi's house caucus would trying to kick jimmy carter out. come on. >> he also made the order -- it was a failed order, but he showed the courage. >> he did. >> he served in the military. jimmy carter served in the military. >> only president to serve on a submarine. >> but fair or not, he is making a connection to a broad caricature. in a lot of people's mind, the carter years were a bad time for this country. there was economic malaise. we were weak in the world. he is hoping to connect barack obama with that malaise because our economy is weak now too. >> mike barnicle, you remember this, because by my calculation you were 63 in 1979. it's a joke. it's a joke. i'm not getting that. but the whole time, by the way,

just for people at home, we have a lot of people that are younger that watch this show, you know, jimmy carter happened to be president at the time of reckoning. the time of reckoning for a welfare state that had run out of control. the time of reckoning for an america that was no longer in the throes of postwar growth. what we are going through today began during the carter administration, not because of jimmy carter, but because of global forces. china in 1978. it actually started at the brzezinski's home when the chinese leader came over and mika spilled caviar on his lap and then tried to wipe it off and created an international incident. true story. >> well, it was a mistake. >> but china was opening. a lot of our factories were already moving overseas. japan was on the rise. we had all of these things happening. and, again, i only bring this up not to fiercely defend jimmy carter, but just to talk about how stupid we americans are when

it comes to trying to figure out why we are where we are today. i will say it again. this is a 30 to 40-year trend that we're going to have to reverse. the middle class has been shrinking because of increasing productivity and because our jobs have been shipped overseas for 30, 40 years. >> and that shrinkage had started before the carter presidency. >> early '70s. >> and events consumed and overwhelmed the carter presidency, events that still threaten us each and every day that we put gasoline in our cars. to jimmy carter's credit, he is the only president of the united states since the 1970s who has had a detailed outline of an energy plan. >> this is true. >> that had we adopted his plan, in 1977 and 1978, we would be far better off internationally today. >> right. >> far better off. >> domestically we'd be far

better off. >> absolutely. we'd have weaned ourselves off of foreign oil. elizabeth warren and incumbent republican senator scott brown are using the president in their campaign messages. warren, who was instrumental in the creation of the new consumer financial protection bureau touts her work with the president -- >> this is before or after he fired her? >> you stop it. >> kicked her out of the white house. >> that's not what happened at all. the republicans would not have her. >> hold on one second. yes, yes, yes, ok. hey, this isn't going to work out, elizabeth. thank you for coming by. >> stop it right now. you know she created probably one of the most important -- >> industry leaders drove her off. >> they did. >> she should have run it. but she wasn't allowed to. the president fired her because industry leaders -- there's no hard feelings, though, apparently. >> actually, i think you might want to figure in the context of the republicans role in this, because they stomped her out.

>> well, but i -- >> because they want to protect their interests. >> the president fired her because the republicans didn't want her. >> she wanted to put a moral compass on the way companies in this country were run. here's the new campaign ad. >> elizabeth warren. she a janitor's daughter who has become one of the country's fiercest advocates for the middle class. she came up with an idea for a new independent agency that would have one simple overriding mission. standing up for consumers and middle class families. >> big banks tried to stop us, but that new agency is already working to cut the fine print and hold those banks accountable. we can take on the big guys and win. i'm elizabeth warren, and i approve this message. >> stop it. stop it. >> i'm elizabeth warren, and this guy fired me. it's hilarious. you say it off the air. and i hate to call you out on it. >> no, i don't. >> oh, come on. the banks got her fired. >> joe, joe -- >> they did. >> totally different.

thrown under the bus is completely different than firing. >> ok. so she was thrown under the bus? i love it. i love it. barack obama. elizabeth warren has created one of the most important consumer agencies ever, and now i'm going to fire her. >> you had your fun. you get to act like an idiot on the set. now let me ask you -- >> is that your defense mechanism to the truth? >> do you think the republicans had nothing to do with stomping her out? >> of course they did. >> i just want to make sure there's some balance in the conversation. >> of course they did. >> because she's fantastic, and they were scared [ bleep ]less of her. >> i know you don't want to let me talk, because you were wrong, but let me just say the republicans were after her from the beginning. but you don't see her next to mitch mcconnell saying, mitch mcconnell loved me. no. she is next to the guy that could have made her the head of that administration. and what did he do to her, willie? >> i believe he fired her.

>> and she's like, when is the bus coming? when is the bus coming? >> hold it one second, elizabeth. hold it. when is the bus coming? hold on. oh, elizabeth, look. is that harold ford jr.? where? right under the bus. right under the bus. and now he is in her ads. boom. >> you know what? i love this little laugh you're all having. i hope you have the same one when she wins as senator. >> no, we like her. she should be there. >> yes, she should. and i'm so sorry for scott brown, who i think is adorable. but it's just not going to happen. all right. [ laughter ] >> are you done? >> when is the bus coming? sir? >> all right. [ laughter ] >> jewela childs. >> she grew up in massachusetts too. by harvard. [ laughter ] >> go ahead. [ laughter ]

>> oh, mika. >> do you really think that i don't know what the view from under the bus looks like? you idiot. ok. but it's not just the president. and you know the republicans stomped her out. and i'm hoping she gets them back by winning for the senate seat. >> you're holding a losing hand, ok? >> actually, i'm not. who doesn't think that elizabeth warren is a fantastic candidate? >> we all love her. >> fantastic. >> we're with you. >> you better be. >> we're not knocking her. we'ring knowing the president. >> you kind of are. >> no, we're not. >> i think it's very insulting. >> i don't think you're paying attention. >> and i don't think the white house would agree with that either. >> of course they wouldn't agree, because he's the one that chunked the body under the bus. all right. but senator brown is also promoting his work with president obama, highlighting his efforts to pass bipartisan legislation in washington. >> a few people told me it wouldn't probably be a good idea, scott, to go down to the white house and be seen with the president signing those bills.

and i'm like, you know, why? when the invitation came, of course i said yes, because i wanted to be there to help see a common sense idea be signed by our president. it was a shared accomplishment that we all did, that we all had a part in, to actually make a difference and move our country forward. and in my book, that sure beats sharing the blame. sharing the blame for doing nothing at all. >> we still think -- we love elizabeth. we love scott. they're both -- this is just going to be an incredible race. >> it's a great race. >> and they have different strengths. elizabeth obviously while we were interviewing her up at fenway -- >> the best that ever was. >> and i turned and said she may be one of the best just natural political candidates i have ever seen in my life. >> yes. >> scott comes on five minutes later. >> and he's good >> and i say this guy is massachusetts. this guy -- i mean, this guy is the guy that you describe all the time. >> yeah.

no. they are both very attractive candidates. and she is astounding in the sense that she has never run for office before. >> i can't believe it. >> she is a natural. scott brown has enormous personal appeal, though, in that state. and part of that appeal is rooted in what he was just talking about. never mind his record, which not nearly as moderate as he is trying to portray it right now. in that state, that is 90% democratic in the legislature, people like the option of, you know, voting for a republican. >> one of the reasons why she might be such a natural is because, and it's similar to when you were running and you were going after bill clinton, but she stands for something. she absolutely stands for something that she truly in her gut and in her instinct believes in. and that just oozes. >> she does. but then again, also, and i'm just talking pure politics, i'm sure steve rattner would hate me being so -- >> oh, rattner will survive. >> but going back, willie geist, to that pat buchanan political athlete, she runs the 40 in like

4.1. really, as a politician, i cannot believe she's never done this before. >> she loves it. >> you could see it before she ran. you could watch her on this show when she was talking about the banks or the economy. you could see her on bill maher or any of the shows. it was clear if she wanted to run for office, she could, and now she's hanging in there with an incumbent. >> no doubt. >> running the 40 in 4.1 even after getting hit by that bus. >> hit by that bus. and by the way, for people at home that are just waking up and may also have a hard time connecting dots together, we weren't making fun of elizabeth warren. we were making fun of the white house. >> yeah. >> we were saying she actually did her job too well and got punished for it. coming up, the definitive biography on lbj. robert caro will be here to talk about his highly anticipated fourth volume. and mike allen has the top stories in the politico playbook. but first, bill karins with

a check on the forecast. >> late-night thunderstorms woke a lot of people in the northeast, including new york city. that is now over with. just a little bit of leftover rain around delaware and north of washington, d.c. but just some showers and sprinkles out there rhode island and coastal areas of massachusetts. forecast today, at the early morning showers, we get a break during the daylight hours. i wouldn't count on sunshine around boston. but d.c., up near 87 today. we'll see thunderstorms later this afternoon rolling back through the region from buffalo to pittsburgh, philly, and new york. keep that in mind for your late-day plans. we're also watching a lot of heavy rain this morning from green bay through northern michigan. you're just getting nailed. about 4,000 lightning strikes there in the last hour. also, thunderstorms this morning, trying to sneak their way towards st. joseph, missouri. watch out north of kansas city as we go throughout your morning commute. the forecast today, severe storms are likely once again chicago, detroit, buffalo, st. louis, to kansas city. not too many tornadoes. but we're just going to continue with these downpours and large

hail. the southeast, you look ok for the most part. texas looks nice. if you're traveling to the west coast or live there, a lot of rain from san diego northward to san francisco. you're watching "morning joe." we're brewed by starbucks. what happens when classroom teachers get the training... ...and support they need?

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oh! check it -- [ loud r&b on car radio ] i'm going on break! the more you bundle, the more you save. now, that's progressive. welcome back to "morning joe." let's go to politico. the chief white house correspondent there is the great mike allen with a look at his world famous playbook. mike, good morning. >> good morning, willie geist. >> let's talk a little business here. american cross roads -- >> wait, wait, hold on.

>> what have you got? >> what's in your playbook today? the one month, one-day anniversary of mika brzezins brzezinskia's book or somebody else's birthday? >> by the way, that book makes a great mother's day gift. but here at playbook we get a lot of email. and i got an email from loyal "morning joe" viewer and fan tip drill down in south beach. >> you did not. >> no way. >> who reminded me that today we should wish happy birthday not only to pete seeger but also to -- who is 93 -- but also the pride of vanderbilt, willie geist. >> oh, thank you, mike allen. [ applause ] >> she wants to rub it all over your face. >> almost as big as the cake for mika. >> it's a personal cake. >> that's wonderful. thank you, kate. thank you, mike allen. >> wait. >> i'm sorry to go back a little bit. did tip drill really email you? >> why, yes.

and not just on birthdays. >> oh, my goodness. i hope her health is better. she had a little scare down there. but let's blow past that. thank you, mike. i appreciate it. let's talka -- >> godspeed, tip drill. godspeed. >> she had a pretty serious accident down there. let's talk american cross roads. karl rove's group did that celebrity ad last week everybody was talking about. now up with a new ad about the president's campaign slogan "forward." let's take a look. >> under president obama, is america moving forward or backward? under obama, 45% more people are on food stamps. 3/4 of a million fewer americans have jobs. and homeownership is the lowest in 15 years. it's getting more expensive for health care. more expensive for gas. more expensive overall. the only thing moving forward under barack obama is our national debt. up $5 trillion. four years of obama moving

america backward. >> what do you think, mike? >> well, so the obama campaign stole msnbc's slogan lean forward, trimmed it down to simply forward. and american cross road sis is trying to make that a kick me sign. they are going to use that as a frame both in written documents and in their videos. you know, american cross roads is the one group, perhaps even more than the romney campaign itself, that the obama campaign fears. at least $340 million in spending, and we're just starting to see a new chapter in the ad wars. the pro romney superpac up with a $400,000 buy. >> that's a good ad. >> mike, good ad? >> yeah. it's effective. >> that ad is better than the celebrity thing they did. the celebrity thing, i didn't think that was that impressive.

this ad here touches -- if you can understand or you know someone or you are living or experiencing what one of those statistics they put up. >> it's just a tougher sell for this white house to say look at what would have happened if we hadn't done what we did. >> you can't do that. >> yeah. that's really tough to do. and it's instead, willie, you just show all of these statistics because it's been a rough three, four years. it's been a rough five, six years. so, yeah, that shows you in 30 seconds why that's an easier argument to make. whether you agree with it or not. >> that's the argument. just look at the numbers. >> the president's team has to get high on pennsylvania and michigan and show how saving the car industry saved suppliers, it saved jobs, how it saved communities. they've got to counter that with music that is certainly not as depressing that and lay out what they have done. >> by the way, though, you look at a 30-second ad like that, and you have to strip these things

down. i always tell people that run for office, strip it down, give me a bumper sticker why you are running. republicans do it very easily in 30 seconds. just based on numbers, that's why that argument is harder to make that you're talking about. and i'm just talking strategy. they've got to destroy mitt romney. they have got to say things are bad, but they'd be a lot worse. >> backward. that's a pretty good bumper sticker. >> yeah, that's a good one. >> mike allen, appreciate it so much. >> appreciate the birthday wishes and one month and one day anniversary of the paperback. >> of "knowing your value," yes. still ahead, the moderator of "meet the press" david gregory will join us onset. and a look at the new issue of "time" magazine with rick stengel. plus, a late-night no hitter in baseball. sports is next on "morning joe." i'm walt gale,

i worked at the colorado springs mail processing plant for 22 years. we processed on a given day about a million pieces of mail. checks, newspapers, bills.

a lot of people get their medications only through the mail. small businesses depend on this processing plant. they want to shut down 3000 post offices, cut 100,000 jobs. they're gonna be putting people out of work everywhere. the american people depend on the postal service. oú

welcome back to "morning joe." we begin with sports, and unfortunately a sad story to tell you about. football legend junior seau, occurred one of the best, most

relentless players not just of his generation but during all time, died yesterday from an apparently self inflicted gunshot wound at his home in southern california. officers did not find a suicide note at the scene, but seau's ex-wife said that seau texted her and each of their three children separate messages reading, i love you. , the day before his death. the 12-time pro bowlers life after retirement from football in 2009 marked by some difficulty. in october of 2010, he was arrested on a domestic violence charge. just a few hours after posting bail, he drove his suv off a cliff. he told authorities then he had fallen asleep at the wheel. saints quarterback drew brees from played with seau called seau the greatest teammate a young guy could ask for. in an awful coincidence, seau is the eighth member of the 1994 chargers super bowl team to pass away before his time.

seau was only 43 years old. a lot of times in death, the impact or the greatestness of players is overstated, but you can't do it in the case of junior seau. truly one of the greatest linebackers of all time. >> no doubt about it. and he's been having trouble for a couple of years. do you know, have you heard, did he have depression issues or was it a family issue? or is it again a lot of people concerned about all of the hits to the head causing depression and a lot of suicides. >> that's the talk around it. we can't draw a straight line yet. but he played in at least parts of 20 nfl seasons. he was a linebacker, one of the hardest hitting guys in the league. certainly they'll be looking into what it had anything to do with concussions. >> there's a belief that trauma to the brain causes depression. >> as you all know, as football fans, you have all been to a live nfl game. if you watch the collisions at an nfl game, the size and speed of these guys, these are small car accidents every time they hit each other, over and over and over. so there's talk that the

cumulative effect of that has an impact on the brain that causes depression. we have seen incidents of guys taking their own lives. a former chicago bears player that killed himself said in a note he wanted his brain donated to science to study the impact of concussions. he said that in the suicide note. certainly, they'll be taking a closer look. for this guy to get to the point where he thought he couldn't go on anymore, this will certainly broaden out to more players around the league. >> mike, back when you were growing up, when i was growing up, the game just didn't move at the speed it does now. jim miklaszewski tells a story back when he was a texas reporter for a radio station going out, watching the cowboys practiceprtice with tom landry, landry just shaking his head going, they're getting too big, moving too fast. this isn't the game that i started coaching. >> several years ago, i was on the sidelines for a new england patriot game. and as willie pointed out, the

size, the speed, and the sound of the collisions on the field when you're down there are shocking. >> it's scary actually. >> oh, yeah. >> it is. >> and the national football league now in conjunction with boston university have a center there for the study of the impact on brains from these national football league players. >> and they'll be going back and looking at deaths of other players and wondering if any of this led to that. and that's what a lot of this saints bounty stuff is about, so a my focus for the nfl and a really sad story about a great, great player, junior seau. a bit happier news in baseball. there was a no hitter late last night in anaheim. jared weaver was on the hill for the angels. he had been struggling a little bit. pujols isn't hitting. but weaver was great last night. in fact, almost perfect. he had a perfect game going until he gave up one walk, just one walk in the seventh inning.

still had the no hitter going. two outs in the ninth. this one a little -- uh-oh, uh-oh. no! >> boy, he got that good. >> torii hunter tracking it down at the warning track, and that was the last out of the game. >> unbelievable. >> his parents were at the game. his parents in the stands to watch. 121 pitches. sat down 27 of 28 batters he faced. just one walk. the 10th no hitter in the history of the franchise. and the 250th ever in the regular season of major league baseball. good night for the angels. and an incredible night in the nhl. caps and rangers. game three, series tied at 1-1. washington, new york. 4 1/2 hours this thing went. 7:30 it started. ended after midnight. third overtime, finally brad richards to gaborik for the rangers. he scores the game-winner. final score, 2-1. rangers win on the road. caps will try to rebound in game four on saturday. man, there have been some great

games in the nhl playoffs. >> do you know how heavy your legs must feel after that many hours on the ice? >> up next, mika's must read opinion pages. she's working on them now. i bathed it in miracles. director: [ sighs ] cut! sorry to interrupt. when's the show?

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how math and science kind of makes the world work. in high school, i had a physics teacher by the name of mr. davies. he made physics more than theoretical, he made it real for me. we built a guitar, we did things with electronics and mother boards. that's where the interest in engineering came from. so now, as an engineer, i have a career that speaks to that passion. thank you, mr. davies. monarch of marketing analysis. with the ability to improve roi through seo all by cob. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above,

and still pay the mid-size price. i'm going b-i-g. [ male announcer ] good choice business pro. good choice. go national. go like a pro. splenda® essentials™ no calorie sweetener with b vitamins, the first and only one to help support a healthy metabolism. three smart ways to sweeten. same great taste. splenda® essentials™. five past the hour. time now for the must read opinion pages. what's wrong with you today? >> nothing wrong with me. >> are you sure? >> positive. >> you don't want to get punished again, do you? >> somebody wanted you to punch me. >> i did. do you want it again? >> you haven't punched me yet because that happens at the top of eight.

>> yes, i have. >> off air, yes. >> valerie jarrett. admit it. wish willie happy birthday. >> thank you, valerie. you're kind. >> and i think the exact quote was beat the hell out of joe. >> i don't think that's the only person emailing me that and saying that, but if you'd like to believe it's just valerie, that's fine. >> happy birthday, valerie. >> all right. "new york times," death of a salesman's dream. >> this is a good one. >> in our time of banger hustlers, real estate hustlers, and internet hustlers, of suckers and muppets, it is unlikely that anyone associates happiness and dignity with working hard for a comfortable existence purchased with a modest income. even what's left of the middle class disdains a middle class life. everyone, rich, poor, and in between, wants infinite pleasure and fabulous riches. perhaps there say simple, unlovely reason "death of a

salesman" has become such a beloved institution. instead of humbling its audience through the shock of recognition, the play now confers upon the people who can afford to see it a feeling of superiority. itself a fragile illusion. what's that saying about us? >> well, i don't know. i think -- i mean, if i read this -- >> you need a big degree to understand that one. >> no, if i read this correctly, he is suggesting that americans are becoming more contemptuous of a middle class life. i don't think that's the case. i think, mike, there is a fear that willie loman had that the dream is fading away. and by the way, this is a fear that did not begin, again, five years ago. or even four years ago. i remember in the early '70s, as i've said before, driving around upstate new york and my parents looking at the factories that had closed, going, you know what? things are slipping away. early '70s. so how many years? 40 years ago. we have been saying this for 40

years. and that's followed up by what? the opec oil embargo. we don't have control of our own energy supplies. we've been going around in circles for 40 years. >> yeah. at some point, someone a lot smarter than any of us here, is going to sit down and track thede mysethe demise, the continuing slide of the middle class, probably to about 1967 or 1978, and i think it begins with the war in vietnam, when there was an awakening of people in the middle class saying, what are we doing over there? why are our sons being killed over there and rich people's sons are not being killed? what's going on here? and factories disappearing, and gas prices going up. all of it. >> there was a study that remarked about the quality and the state of our nation's education system. it was a snapshot in '83. if you were born that year, you know, you'd be 39 years old

today. you think about it. if you were 11 years -- or 29 years old. >> did you go to university? >> forgive me. but my point is, i think it points back to the decline in our education system and how we are not keeping pace with the kind of changes in a global economy and even changes in our domestic economy affected by it. on a lighter note, today is also the birthday of james brown. the reverend al sharpton in harlem celebrating your birthday and the godfather of soul's. >> i said that on "way too early." he's number one. i'm number two. >> explain the reason why harold ford couldn't do his math before, he says can only count to three. he has three points. >> that was just a snap shot then. in the '70s and '60s --

>> yeah. talking about our collective math skills. >> it was a great point. >> you're not going to let this one go, are you? are you done? hold on. >> this was successful. >> we should point out that the must reads, everyone should try and get to the piece today in "the washington post" about john's 40th birthday. john has down's syndrome. a fanatical baseball fan, and it's a terrific piece. >> yeah. some of george's most moving columns through the years have been about his son. we'll be right back with "news you can't use." bobby. it's me marty. no way. marty doesn't have a big hole in his head. i got mixed up with some bargain brand cooking spray. look the only way to go is pam.

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>> she is accused of taking her 6-year-old daughter with her inside a tanning booth. she appeared in court yesterday on charges of child endangerment. according to new jersey state law, no one under the age of 14 is allowed to use a tanning booth. she denies she exposed her daughter to the tanning bed. here she is. >> i tan. she doesn't tan. it's called a tanning booth. and a tanning room. i'm in the booth. she's in the room. she's my little girl. i'm not going to bring my little daughter into a 90 degree bed. i mean, that's not normal. >> so much to sort through here. >> i'm confused. >> wow. >> she is 6 now. she was 5 at the time. came to school with the sun burn, so the teacher called the state and said i was in a tanning booth with my mom. the mom denies it there. even snooki, she of tanning fame, has come out and said that blank is crazy. you're not supposed to take kids

in there. the person who runs the tanning salon where this woman goes wants to point out that bronze you see there, says, quote, i don't know what color that is. she must be self coloring on her own time. because we don't tan like that. >> ok. here is the thing. at some point somebody needs to turn her away since those things aren't really good for you. >> no, i don't think they are. >> they're bad for you. but they're legal, so i can guess you can go once in a while. but if someone looks like that -- >> it's too much. >> you don't let them tan. >> too much. >> before you even -- >> can we take these pictures down, please? >> i feel sick. >> who was around her in her life who says, hey, you've got a good look going there. >> you look hot. >> she's married. apparent he her husband likes it. one more piece of video. remember in january we showed you this? this happened again -- >> what parent would do that? >> the oregon zoo in portland setting up a 1-year-old for a photograph. let's take that full so we can see it, dave, please.

>> look at this baby. did you see that mouth open? >> based on the kid's jacket, the lioness thought it was a baby zebra and wanted a piece of the action. and you've got to love the parent who just keeps filming. >> a lot of faith. what parent would be stupid enough to do that? >> oh! >> what parent would be stupid enough to do that. >> that's a hungry mama right there. i love how the kid just hangs in there. >> well, they don't see much. they just think it's a cute puppy. >> amazing. thank god for plexiglas. >> mika, you're crazy, but would you do that? >> no. i would pick up my baby and squeeze it tight. >> you should see what david gregory does at the washington zoo. holy cow. an accident doesn't have to slow you down.

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my vision for america is very different than this president's vision. what he's done over the last 3 1/2 years is install a series of policies that have made it back breaking for many small businesses. and made it harder for our economy to reboot and put people back to work. people ask me, what would you do to get the economy going? i say, well, look at what the president's done and do the opposite. what the president has done, and i think unknowingly, never having spent any time in the private sector himself, is what the president did was one item after another, make it harder and harder for small business to

thrive and to grow. and to start up. it was the most anti-small business administration i've seen probably since carter. who would have guessed we'd look back at the carter years as the good old days? [ applause ] >> welcome back to "morning joe." mike barnicle and harold ford jr. still with us. joining us now, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. this was in chantilly, virginia. >> was that in mississippi or alabama? chantilly, virginia? it looked like "steel magnolias" back there. david gregory. i always say the washington senators because i'm old, but the washington nationals still in first place. >> yeah, we won last night. >> they had a rough week or so. but won last night. >> the problem is we were talking about it, the pitching is the real deal. it's very solid. the offense is above average, but without ryan zimmerman and michael morris in the lineup

right now, it's a little anemic. >> yeah. >> so we've got to work on that. >> work on putting people in the seats. . . >> yeah. i don't quite understand. there's so much excitement in washington. but it's not really translating to people coming out in the stands yet. but i really do believe that will come. it's a great fan experience. so it's fantastic. and between bryce harper and strasbourg, it's a completely changed atmosphere from having going since 2005 when they came. and so it's totally different. >> let's hope they start filling up the seats. mika, we have some new polls out. >> a new poll shows president obama and mitt romney in a dead heat in several key states likely to decide who the next president will be. in florida, it's a statistical tie. romney 44%, president obama 43%. at the end of march, the president had a seven-point advantage there. in ohio, obama 44%, romney 42%. in march, there was a six-point lead for obama there.

and in pennsylvania, president obama has the edge. he leads romney in pennsylvania by eight points, 47% to 39%. that's an improvement from his three-point lead over romney a month ago. now these new numbers come as the superpac supporting mitt romney has announced they'll be watching a $ 4.3 million ad campaign in nine swing states. the first ad airing is called saved, which of the only positive ad the super pac aired during the republican primary. >> my 14-year-old daughter disappeared in new york city for three days. no one could find her. my business partner stepped forward to take charge. he closed the company and brought almost all of our employees to new york. he said, i don't care how long it takes. we're going to find her. he set up a command center and searched through the night. the man who helped save my daughter was mitt romney. mitt's done a lot of things people say are nearly impossible, but for me the most

important thing he's ever done is help save my daughter. >> i was sitting at a lunch recently with a bunch of republicans, and i was told that story. >> you do that? >> and the gentleman that i was sitting next to sent me that entire story on email, which i have today. >> it's a fascinating story. so you look at these polls, david gregory, and we're returning to form. you know, a month ago, republicans were behind by like 87 points. it's tight in florida now. it's tight in ohio. it's going to stay that way. >> yeah. and i think that the negativity you've been talking about this morning with the super pacs, i think it's striking. a lot of democrats i that you can to are worried, and people in the obama campaign are worried, they'll just be outgunned on this stuff. however much president obama will raise that the super pacs, one of which karl rove is behind, others putting super pacs out there, are going to blanket swing states with negative ads against the president. and whether his -- those super pacs align with him, supporting him, are going to be able to keep pace.

and i have a theory there will be so much negativity through the general election that it's going to hurt both sides. but the question of -- if you think about how they ran in 2004, which i think is really applicable model to how this team wants to run, do they have the ability to take down romney in a way that bush took down kerry? >> let's explain that, because usually general election candidates run to the middle, try to pick up independent voters. but we started seeing a year ago the obama team realized they weren't going to get a lot of independents that swung elections. so explain the karl rove model of 2004. >> it was to own -- >> and what obama is going to do. >> i think it's about owning the quality of leadership, so that george bush in 2004 was seen as the strong leader. john kerry seen as the weaker leader. so it's not about results. it's about qualities. and in the process, you tear down your opponent as an alternative.

>> it's about destroying your opponent. >> absolutely. >> karl rove and george w. bush knew he would never be a popular guy. he would never get 52% of the vote. they had to destroy john kerry. that's what the obama team has to do now. >> no question about it. but i think there's areas about leadership, we have just seen it with bin laden, that president obama wants to own and have an advantage against romney. the rest of it is scare people about what he'd represent. >> mika, you remember the linda mcmahon campaign two years ago. >> mm-hmm. >> anybody you talked to that lived in connecticut hated her by the end of the campaign, even if they voted for her, because there were so many 30-second ads, just constantly coming at you. and they were negative. they were sickened by it. this is going to happen in ohio. it's going to happen in florida. it's going to happen in pennsylvania. it's going to happen in all the swing states. there's going to be sort of the law of diminishing returns. by the end of the process, in these swing states, these voters are going to be sick of both candidates. >> actually tune out to the point when it gets that negative

and that relentless. it's just -- you don't even know what to believe anymore. >> i think there's such a big sentiment in the country that washington doesn't work well. and i don't think that is going to help. i think what voters want to hear is how are you going to break through. >> let me ask these guys really quickly. harold ford, you colonian only slaughter your opponent so much. and democratic super pac ads, the president, romney, rnc, dnc, people will be sick of it by the end. >> no doubt. ultimately, people are going to want to hear what david was saying, a clear arcticulation of where we go from here. everyone has had to experience the last four years, and no doubt we are doing better. but there's a yearning to do even better. and again, i repeat myself, whichever candidate is able to begin to lay out clearly and cogently where they are going to take us and how to make the country stronger and more competitive will be the advantage. six months ago, democrats thought we would have more money

than republicans. six months later, it looks as if the republicans are going to have more money than democrats. that could change. but at this point, it looks as if they'll outgun us in money. >> mike? >> it's going to be nauseating. >> that's a good way of putting it. yeah. >> and you know what's going to be interesting to see if david's reference to 2004, when they took a guy with two silver stars and purple hearts and made him out to be a weak guy, it's going to be interesting to see if romney is going to have the discipline basically with regard to osama bin laden and the raid and everything. to turn to the president of the united states and say, you know, that was one of the greatest things that has ever happened to this country. congratulations. i was so proud as every american was proud and thrilled. but you know what wasn't one of the greatest things that ever happened? when he lost his house. and switch it. and go to the economy. but give the president his props. >> and i think he has a better ability to do that this year than kerry would have had in

2004. because that was the dominant issue, is how strong are you in the face of the threat of terror. but i think it's not just about perceived weakness on an issue like terrorism. it is about do you have a core. when the obama team comes out and says that romney has no core, that's effectively what the bushes were doing to kerry, by saying, you know, where is this guy? it's about leadership. who owns leadership? >> yeah. what do you stand for. former house speaker newt gingrich officially suspended his presidential campaign yesterday, calling it a truly wild ride. >> i'm shocked. >> it's just suspended. >> good. he could come back. >> yeah. he promised to rally behind the former massachusetts governor. gingrich's support came more in the form, though, of an attack on president obama rather than an actual full throated endorsement of romney. >> as to the presidency, i am

asked sometimes, is mitt romney conservative enough? and my answer is simple. compared to barack obama? you know, this is not a choice between mitt romney and ronald reagan. this is a choice between mitt romney and the most radical leftist president in american history. >> by the way, david, a spokesman for both gingrich and santorum say formal endorsements, look forward to that, will likely follow face-to-face meetings with romney. >> summits. >> why can't anyone just endorse him? i mean, i was telling joe earlier that i could endorse him. i mean, i know great things about mitt romney. that i could get very excited about. why, why, why is it so hard? >> well, michele bachmann is getting onboard. she's getting on the train. >> what's the deal there? it's ego? >> there is a little bit of ego involved. >> just a tad.

>> but i think they want to extract something. they want to know in both cases of santorum and gingrich, they have supporters. certainly more so in the case of santorum. they want to be able to deliver something. they want some role obviously in the convention or in the course of campaigning. >> don't you get that by giving a full-throated endorsement? >> you do. but also i think they want to try to extract something, which is even more of a role or something for their efforts. i mean, i heard you all earlier, and i agree. they don't have the sort of leverage that hillary clinton had. >> it's not that hard. >> well, they are also nervous, mika. they are nervous because they know that mitt romney is not a conservative. they are afraid they could endorse this guy. he loses. that endorsement blows up in their face down the road. >> if you think about all of that, don't endorse him. >> but this is reality. >> rick santorum endorsed mitt romney last time around. and he said that was just because i didn't like mccain.

>> and they go back to their endorsement of arkanslen specter a senate race. >> his views are outside of the mainstream of the republicans and of the country. so i agree with you. but at the end of the day, i don't think this hurts romney as much as we're not suggesting it does but i don't think it hurts him as he tries to campaign in the suburbs of pennsylvania, colorado, north carolina, without the endorsements of newt gingrich or rick santorum. >> let's cut through the clutter. they don't like romney. they just don't like him. >> and they show it, every time they endorse it. >> no, they don't. they don't like him. and newt gingrich doesn't like him. >> no. >> and in fact, the obama campaign has actually released a video, sort of a montage, sort of a k-tel's greatest hits of newt gingrich's putdowns of mitt romney. take a look. >> as a man who wants to run for president of the united states who can't be honest with the american people. why should we expect him to be

level about anything if he's president? you certainly would have to say that bain at times engaged in behavior where they looted a company leaving behind 1,700 unemployed people. there was a pattern at some companies of leaving them with enormous debt, and then within a year or two or three, having them go broke. that is something he ought to answer. i don't know of any american president who has had a swiss bank account. i'd be glad for you to explain that sort of thing. >> are you calling mitt romney a liar? >> yes. >> i like the font they use. extra big font. >> somebody went up and said, should we do times new roman? 18 points. >> no, it was straight out of the 1970s, one of those. wow. >> at least the elizabeth warren ad is more positive than

negative, i think. >> i don't think we want to go there. >> the thing is, you can do the same thing, though, with rick santorum. you could find a rick santorum's greatest hits. >> absolutely. >> and they did trash mitt romney. and in part because they don't like mitt romney for the same reason that candidates that ran against mitt romney four years ago don't like him. now, you can always say, politics is a very clubby business. it's a clubby sport. and the fact that mitt romney is not in the club, maybe that's something that you prefer. but they don't like him. >> i think it took a long time for the clintons to cotton to president obama. >> oh, yeah. >> after that contest. and i'm sure there's some fingering -- >> some lingering resentment there? >> i don't know. but the point is, this is what goes on, and the party will patch this up and people aren't going to remember, you know, the fact that gingrich and santorum are not huge fans of romney.

but it does reveal some real gaps in enthusiasm for the party that he has got. >> no doubt. >> david gregory, stay with us. up next, twe'll talk to robert caro about the latest installment in his biography of president lyndon b. johnson. we are watching the worst weather in the country this morning in missouri. thunderstorms rolling through st. joseph this morning. gusty winds and a lot of cloud on the ground. lightning. that's not fun if you're trying to get out the door with your kids or to work. later today, widespread damaging winds and large hail from kansas city, st. louis, peoria, chicago, detroit, and eventually buffalo. thunderstorms very prevalent throughout the afternoon. some of those could even make their way towards new york city, philadelphia, and d.c. late in the day, more or less this evening. the southern half of the country

looks good. also off to a wet start this morning from seattle all the way down to portland. rained overnight in new york city. a break during the day today. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

this is a sad time for all people. we have suffered a loss that cannot be weighed. for me, it is a deep, personal tragedy. i know that the world shares the sorrow that mrs. kennedy and her family bear. i will do my best. that is all i can do. i ask for your help.

and god's. those were lyndon johnson's first televised words at andrews air force base as president in 1963. earlier that night, president johnson was sworn into office onboard air force one after the assassination of president john f. kennedy. pulitzer prize-winning biing onning on -- biographer bill caro captures this in his new book, "the years of lyndon johnson." >> another extraordinary new book. you have been living with this man for 30 years. and tell me, you've been living with him. is he any more likeable today personally than he was when you first began? >> likeable, maybe not. but awesome, yes. that speech you just saw, he's had -- you know, they say today a president has 11 weeks for the transition and that's too short.

he had two hours and six minutes. he was sworn in. gets off and has to be president of the united states. >> the reason i brought up the likeable part is he may not be the most likeable president, but you read through this book, you read through any history of lbj, and you realize what an extraordinary politician he was. and in fact, the book is summed up really in this paragraph in the introduction. the story of lyndon johnson during the opening transition weeks of his presidency is a triumphant story, one in which is possible to glimpse the full possibilities of presidential power. and every time i hear people going, oh, the presidency has become too big for one man, i laugh and think, no, actually, not if that one man is lyndon johnson. >> but just on that point, it's amazing. at the moment he takes over, president kennedy's legislative program is completely stalled in congress, the civil rights bill, the tax cut bill. johnson picks these two pieces of legislation up. by the time that the weekend is

over, by the time kennedy is buried, he has these two pieces of legislation started. >> and i didn't realize that until i read the book. you used the word "log jam." kennedy couldn't get anything through congress. we forget that. >> yes, we do. >> and yet johnson goes in, and he decides he's going to, quote, murder a bill, to prove to the congress that they are at heal. explain that. >> well, the conservatives are challenging him on a weak deal to russia. he comes in and he says, you've scheduled a vote for tuesday, you know. how many votes do we have? johnson was the great vote counter. they said oh, we win. he calls senators and finds out they don't have enough votes to pass it. he calls them, gets enough votes to pass it, but that's not what he wants. he wants to just like you said murder the bill. you hear him on the telephone saying i want to murder the bill. and he keeps calling all night until he does. and congress realizes they are facing something else now. >> and you say at that moment, the power began to flow from

congress back to the presidency. >> yes, sir. >> and it did. it's remarkable. >> i'm curious about you look at him as vice president actually doing the math and having staff members look up how many presidents died in office. admitting in many conversations that such a route was his best hope of becoming president himself. can you put that in context for us? >> yes, but it's not as evil as it sounds. he was a great calculator. he felt that no one from the south would be nominated for president by the democrats in his lifetime. at the convention, it's the big northern states that control the votes. he felt that a southerner's best chance, and he said this, was to take the vice presidency. as part of this, he did have a staff look up and he found that six vice presidents had succeeded because the presidency died. and when someone asked him, why did you take the vice presidency, he said, well, you

know, six of them didn't have to get elected. >> wow. >> ok, then. >> let's explain also just very quickly about the southerners not being able to be elected. obviously, the northeast controlled it. but johnson himself had a very bad record on civil rights up until 1957. >> exactly. >> and you talk about how he jammed through a civil rights bill because he wanted to become president. but you don't see that as cynical. you actually see that as johnson becoming who he truly was. >> yes, exactly. and how do we know this is what he truly wanted to do, that he truly wanted to help poor people and particularly poor people of color? when he's this college, he has to drop out for a year. he's very poor. to teach in what was called the mexican school, mexican children of mexican migrant workers in a little town called petulla in south texas. i wrote in the first volume because the kids said it. no teacher had ever cared if these kids learned or not.

this teacher cared. but you might say that's just lyndon johnson trying to do the best job at whatever job he's in because that was a characteristic of him. but how do you know he really cared? he didn't just teach the kids. he taught the janitor. the janitor's name was tomas coronado. johnson felt it was important for him to learn english. he buys him a textbook. and every day before and after school, he sits with the janitor on the steps of the school, and the janitor says johnson would pronounce, i would repeat. johnson would spell, i would repeat. gets to be president, and someone says to him, don't fight for the civil rights bill. you can't win. it's a lost cause. you know what he says to them? then what the hell is the presidency for then? >> wow. >> on the afternoon of november 22, 1963, president kennedy is dead. he's at the parkman hospital. >> yes, sir. >> president johnson is in the

anteroom down the hall. from that moment on, on the plane with jacqueline kennedy, getting her involved in the photo session when he is sworn in as president of the united states on the plane, there were elements of johnson's personality as you describe it manipulative, all knowing, sometimes overbearing, that had great positive results in his presidency, and yet to the reader, to someone who doesn't know him, are quite repellent. >> that's the problem of writing lyndon johnson. just what you say, he would do anything. if he were dealing with a man, if a threat would work, he would use the threat. if flattery would work, he'd use flattery. he would bully. but the thing is for these seven weeks in this book after kennedy's assassination, pea puts all of these things aside. you know, he yelled and bullied subordinates. someone said it's like he had an

alarm clock inside of him that told him to yell at someone every two hours. for seven weeks, the alarm never goes off. he never loses his temper. it's in a way his finest hour. >> bob, i'm curious, what is the leadership lesson of lind yndon johnson? >> well, the reason i ended this book after the first seven weeks is that in this seven weeks, you see the full power of what a president can do. he can pick up the legislation. he studi steadies the country i foreign policy. he does all of these things. you know, on that plane ride, he makes a list. we have the list on a little note pad, of what he has to do when he gets off the plane. he knows what he has to do because he has been in washington for 30 years doing it. >> and speaking of being on that plane, it's fascinating. how before kennedy goes to dallas, you talk about how it had gotten to the point where kennedy would roll his eyes and go, oh, god, johnson doesn't

want to fly with me on air force one again. these guys did not like each other a whole lot. talk about -- and this is again a part of johnson that i had not read about yet. how he was motivated by fear of failure. actually, he was paralyzed. and you explain moving up to 1960 how he just refused to jump off the cliff. and then you explain why. it goes back to his father. >> well, you know, he was very close to his father, who was a populist legislator. the father failed. he lost the johnson ranch. the johnson family was condemned to a life not only of poverty, but of humiliation. his father was the laughing stock of town. you know, when johnson used to go into the drug store and the other kids used to take the candy out of the penny candy, he could never afford the candy, and they didn't have any credit. he never forgot that.

his brother, sam houston johnson, once said to me, you've got to understand the most important thing about lyndon was that he not be like daddy. he was afraid to fail. and he's afraid he's going to fail when he runs for the presidency, and for the first time in his life, he doesn't try until it's too late. >> and, mike, the more important part of this to understand johnson in the late 1950s is the fact that his father was a successful legislator, a successful businessman, that they were the successful people in the town. and then it disappeared. and he thought it could happen to him. >> in all of that involved in johnson's ever fascinating character, off of exactly what you pointed out, and off of your answer, it's still striking when we think we know so much about johnson, and we know so little about johnson, the lack of self-esteem that is there prior to 12:30, november 22, in dallas. but that instantly disappears, the lack of self-esteem

instantly disappears. the story about the hat in that picture we were talking about. tell that story. >> well, the morning of november 22, their first event is in ft. worth. kennedy is, you know, handsome and elegant in his suit, bareheaded. johnson has a rain coat on because it's drizzling and a hat. he comes down to the lobby. he sees that kennedy is bareheaded. and he snatches off the hat and carries it by his side. he was so insecure in relation to the kennedys, you know, it's a sad thing. because he felt he was a poor boy. the kennedys -- jack kennedy went to harvard. lyndon johnson went to what he always called the poor boy's school. you went to southwest texas state teachers college because you didn't have enough money to go to the university of texas. he felt he was cheated out of an education, and he knew it all his life. so whenever he encountered the kennedys, and the kennedys of course looked down on him. whenever robert kennedy -- he had these great parties out at

hickory hill, his estate in virginia. his wife, ethel, always put lyndon johnson at what she called the losers table. and he knew he was at the losers' table. >> my gosh. >> but the thing is, and bob talks about, david, how the kennedys treated him badly, called him corn pone, and one very famous historian after reading this book called me on the phone and said, you know, i never really just knew how badly the kennedys treated johnson. that they treated him like he was trash. >> terrible. >> and yet he comes into power as bob was explaining and he has this list of things to do. think of the difference. this was the ultimate washington insider. and that's what he was leveraging. he wasn't leveraging, you know, great love in the country toward him. he went in there and knew what he had to do and was murdering bills and was, you know, had that experience when he dealt with eisenhower.

he had this good relationship with eisenhower as well. and eisenhower counted on him to do certain things. he was there to legislate. >> kennedy was loved. johnson was feared. >> johnson says the important thing about civil rights is to write it in the books of law. think of what that means. a president's job is to get law -- he said the blacks have waited 100 years for the voting rights. he said, they have waited long enough. it's time to write it in the books of law. he had the most idealistic aims. he wants to end poverty, and he wants to -- you know, you have an african-american president in the white house. that wouldn't have been possible if lyndon johnson hadn't passed the voting rights act of1965. when he sets out to pass this act, you say this is impossible. you know, you could see the long senate tally sheets with the votes.

and you put a number by each name. and the numbers are smudged. and you know why they are smudged? because they are from his thumb. he never let his finger move on to the next line until he knew he had the senator. but he gets it passed in 1965. 43 years later, in 2008, there's an african-american in the white house. that's a blink of history's eye. and that's what johnson did. >> and hillary was right. lbj was responsible for so much. remember four years ago, hillary said that. and people claimed that she was saying terrible things about martin luther king. she wasn't. she was just telling the truth. let's project forward. do you think at some point lyndon johnson will get his due among historians as a -- if you're just talking about effectiveness as a near great president, medicare, medicaid, the voting rights act, other civil rights bills. as you said, even more than fdr,

this man pushed through legislation that progressives had been trying to push through for decades. >> since 1938. think of it. he declares war -- goes back to this ranch where he's been such a poor boy over christmas after the assassination. december 1963. and he creates the war on poverty. and what does he say? he says we want to end poverty. he says, too many americans live on the outskirts of hope. think of the ambition. of course, you know, when we talked about johnson's legacy, i have to say, but in the end, all of these things are going to be swallowed up by vietnam. so it's such a tragic story. but his hopes and the things he accomplished can't -- and shouldn't be forgotten. >> robert caro, thank you so much. the book is "lyndon johnson: the passage of power."

and david gregory, thank you as well. >> david, you're doing something pretty exciting today. >> i'm talking to robert de niro today about the new freedom tower, what it means to new york and the country. and that will be on "meet the press" and also "press pass" this week. >> our bobby, as you like to call him. >> by this afternoon, i'll be calling him bob. still ahead, new details in the bizarre death of a top british spy. "morning joe" will be right back. oú

welcome back. now to a mystery that's making front page news all across britain this morning. it involves the death of a top british spy found locked in a duffle bag. as nbc's stephanie gosk reports, london investigators are not confident the case will ever be solved. >> reporter: for nearly two years, investigators have been trying to determine what happened to the brilliant code breaking spy, whose body was found stuffed in a duffle bag zipped, and padlocked inside his bathtub. the heat turned high in the

middle of summer. his iphone wiped clean. hanging from a chair a candy-colored wig. the coroner announced this was probably a criminal act, but there are no signs of who was behind it. >> i urge anyone who knows garreth who had contact with him to search their conscious and come forward. >> reporter: failed attempts by experts to lock themselves up in a similar bag seemed to prove that williams couldn't have acted alone. >> the door was closed to mask the decomposition smell and the heating was turned on full. so there was no visible marks or evidence that he could have done this. >> reporter: a day after this cc tv video was shot of williams, he stopped showing up for work. it took over a week for his mi6 co-workers to report his disappe disappearance. because of the delay, the body severely decomposed, making cause of death impossible to determine. the coroner now says it was either asphyxiation or some unidentified poison.

the coroner knocks down the wildest theories. no clear connection to williams' visits to bondage websites or to $30,000 worth of high end women's clothes found in his bachelor pad. >> this is a gift to the conspiracy theorists to have an unexplained death under any circumstances. of course, it gives rise to huge speculation. >> the head of mi6 apologized to the family for the delay in reporting williams' disappearance, but it doesn't seem to have helped. >> it's exacerbated by his employers at mi6. >> now mi6 is under suspicion itself. >> that was nbc's stephanie goss reporting. up next, rick sting engel i here to reveal the latest issue of "time" magazine. "morning joe" will be back after these messages.

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and take control of your personal economy. this is going to be helpful. call or come in today. fidelity investments. turn here. welcome back to "morning joe." with us now, "time" magazine editor rick stengel, here to reveal the latest issue of "time" magazine. this is a good one because, you know, you look at the news and what's going on, in khun in chi it's crazy. >> the people's republic of scandal. >> talk about that scandal. >> well, bogili was a local

leader of chung ching. it is the largest city in the world. it has 30 million people in western china, and americans don't even know about it. and he was an anomaly. this charismatic politician who talked to the masses, who was on television, and the chinese leadership style is to be reclusive and behind the scenes and not to put your head up above the line. >> obviously, caused a lot of jealousy among the leadership. >> a lot of jealousy. and he was campaigning to get into the politburo. and then his police commissioner sought refuge at the u.s. embassy and told extraordinary tales of corruption on the part of bo, his family, his wife, the murder of the british businessman in the hotel for which bo's wife is now being held. apparently he has sucked out millions and even billions of dollars, all under the name of actually returning china to the kind of seriousness and socialist message that they had gotten away from.

>> do we have any evidence that actually happened, or do you think the guy was probably set up and taken down for doing what other corrupt communist leaders do? >> i don't know the answer to that, and i won't even speculate. but in a way, it doesn't even matter. what it does is it's created a power struggle in china between the forces represented by bo, who are sort of backward looking, moving away from the capitalist model, who are the princelings, the sons and daughters of some of the founders of china, versus the engineers who want to move china forward. >> is it true that bo was bugging phones, was tapping in other communist leaders? >> well, you know, at this point, it is hard to know, joe. and now pretty much any charge that could be leveled against him has been leveled against him. he has become a kind of black star for everything that's wrong with china and the corruption and nepotism that exists. but what it points to is that

for the first time after years and years of growing, you know, 300, 400 million people into the middle class, there's this image of great income inequality between the leadership, which is quite large in a country of 1.5 billion, and the middle class. and they are looking and say, those guys get every advantage. their kids go to college abroad. they are driving fancy cars. yet they are members of the communist party of china. >> and this underlines also a couple of points. you talked about income inequality. americans always talk about how china is going to be the next great power. china is 1/3 our size economically. they would have to be our size economically. they would have to be ten times our size just to have the same per capita income. they are light years behind the united states of america and it would take two years to catch up. >> they are catching up at an

extraordinary rate. last year i was in western china where the fox con factory is that makes ipads. we tweent the factually. they had 25,000 workers. they said next year we will have 250,000 workers here which, in fact, they do now. the scale that they are moving forward and the speed, they are way, way behind us but accelerating. >> isn't that our ultimate hold card diplomatically dealing with the chinese in that you have 30 million people and this wide chasm between the way ordinary people live in china and the way the ruling class lives in china. they want to dominate and rule lives through ridged ideology because they get the gifts of life and the working people get practically nothing. isn't that something we can

count on? keeping china at bay? >> it's a good question. if the ball goes fast enough i don't think they really care about this elite class that has every advantage that they don't have. if that starts to stall out and look upward that could create a situation where there is animosity among the public that they want more democracy and more freedom. i wouldn't bet on it because the chinese have managed this properly and because the engine of growth continues to still be amazing. 10%. >> does this still point to the corruption that poses real risk for china's growth over the decade. >> there is this class of young men who are the heirs of the founders of china.

it goes against all of the principles of socialist that there is this blood line that they had. one thing that ping did in terms of changing china back was try to get politics out of china. so they became engineers with the right connections. we'll see if that continues. part of the cover saying what we are seeing is the return of politics to china after a couple of decades without politics. >> and this article about emerging markets. >> it's about the idea that the brick nations are hitting a wall. we thought these emerging nations would become the engine of growth and they are slowing down. >> and we share the same birthday. >> no way. happy birthday. >> i told you not to tell

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welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at new york city. let's go to the news now. newt gingrich officially suspended his presidential campaign yesterday calling it a truly wild ride. gingrich's support came more in the form of an attack on the president than a full throated endorsement of romney. >> as to the presidency i'm asked sometimes is mitt romney conservative enough. and my answer is simple. compared to barack obama? this is not a choice between mitt romney and ronald reagan. this is a choice between mitt romney and the most radical leftist president in american

history. >> another good one. another good endorsement. >> you get a big kick out of that, don't you? >> i don't understand why people can't get behind mitt romney. i can endorse mitt romney right now. i don't get that. >> harold, it is interesting that this republican field, they lose -- i mean, listen. i'm not in politics. i'm supposed to analyze. that's what i do. so i can say mitt romney is not a conservative guy. if you are in there and you are in the gang and if you are going to endorse endorse the guy on the team the full throated endorsement or just stay home. it's not just newt here at all. we are not picking on him. it is santorum and marco rubio and the people who feel the need to cover their backs and say he is good but not that good. >> four years ago democrats were

we in a battle with senator clinton and senator obama. june around this time four years ago you had tara mccullf on the show talking about how this race was still competitive. rick santorum and newt gingrich will be after thoughts in the next few days. conservative or not you are not going to be swayed by what it two of them do. this is not going to get joined. it will get more interesting. i think largely the panel whichever of these candidates is going to get to first talking about the future on how america competes, whoever is able to do that best will be advantaged. >> i remember back four years ago hillary clinton and bill clinton, they were basically called racists by obama supporters. they used the race card against two people that fought their

whole life for civil rights. it couldn't have been more personal than that. and yet hillary and bill both lined up behind barack obama. these republicans don't seem to be able to do that. >> you get the dissinktt sense. they were vilified by the romney campaign in terms of commercial aimed at them. all of the munnee at the world. there is a residual bitterness in both of them towards romney. >> get over it, though. again, i talk about hillary clinton but hillary clinton -- santorum and gingrich are nowhere near where clinton was in the standing of her party. if you add them together they don't come close to her stature.

>> i think that is more of a reason for both of them to know the smart thing to do is endorse him. >> the lack of endorsement won't impact. >> mika this whole conversation started with mika wondering why people can't come down and endorse. if i were excited about mitt romney i would say so. i would say this guy is exciting. >> we have spent time with him and walked away thinking-- >> i like him. he is good people. i can make an endorsement if i were still in politics but i'm not. so i can say i'm not really excited. >> the argument you hear is this is a leverage play that they want to meet with mitt romney privately and tell them what they want whether retiring campaign debt but they don't have the leverage.

that's not hillary clinton going to barack obama saying i want this job. mitt romney can say good bye. >> i actually wrote something i think fairly positive for newt last night so when i say this this morning i don't mean to be personal against newt at all. but mitt romney doesn't want newt to speak at the convention. he doesn't. he just doesn't. so right there newt is not holding a lot of cards. santorum is not holding a lot of cards. so i think they are going to figure out a way to sound more excited. >> spokes people for gingrich and rick santorum say formal endorsements will likely follow face to face meetings with romney. michele bachmann is putting her support. the minnesota congress woman is expected to endorse romney

today. romney meanwhile is looking to turn the conversation back to the economy after sparring with the obama campaign advisors who suggested that romney wouldn't have ordered the raid that killed osama bin laden. >> we still talking about that. >> for the second time in a week -- no, we are moving on. mitt romney invoked former presidt, jimmy carter. >> leave him alone. he's 87. >> what the president has done and i think unknowingly never having spent any time in the private sector himself is the president did one item after another make it harder and harder for small business to thrive and to grow and to start up. it was the most antismall business administration i have seen probably since carter. who would have guessed we look back at the carter years as the good old days? >> why does he keep going after

an 87-year-old former president? >> i don't know. democrats went after hoover. >> democrats are still going after hoover. you can knock jimmy carter for things. not hostile to small business. he was a conservative democrat. he would be a blue dog democrat. >> he was challenged by the liberal wing of the party. >> democrats today in nancy pelosi's house caucus would be trying to kick jimmy carter out. >> made the order. he made the courage. jimmy carter served in the military. >> only president to serve on a submarine. >> the carter years were a bad time for this country. there was economic malaise. we were weak in the world. he is hoping to connect barack

obama with that time. >> you remember this because you were by my calculations 63 in 1979. it's a joke. that whole time, by the way, just for people at home jimmy carter happened to be the president at the time of reckoning for a welfare state that had run out of control, the time of reckoning for america that was no longer in the throws of post war growth. what we are going through today began during the carter administration not because of jimmy carter but because of global forces. china in 1978. it started at the home when the chinese leader came over and mika spilled cavier on his lap and tried to wipe it off and

created an international incident. true story. china was opening. a lot of factories were opening overseas. i only bring this up not to fiercely defend jimmy carter but just to talk about how stupid we americans are when it comes to trying to figure out why we are where we are today. i will say it again. this is a 30 to 40 year trend that we are going to have to reverse. the middle class has been shrinking because of increasing productivity and because our jobs have been shipped overseas for 30 to 40 years. >> and that shrinkage started before the carter presidency and those events consumed the presidency, events that still overwhelm us every day. he is the only president of the united states since 1970s who has had a detailed outline of an

energy plan that had we adauptded his plan we would be far better off internationally today. absolutely. we would have weaned ourself off of foreign oil. one more story to get to before we go to break. president obama is beginning to play prominently in the massachusetts senate race with democratic candidate and incumbent republican senator scott brown using their president in their campaign messages. warren who was instrumental in the new consumer protection bureau touts her work -- >> before or after he fired her. >> you stop it. >> yes, yes, yes. this isn't going to work out, elizabe elizabeth. thank you for coming by.

she should have run it but she wasn't aallowed to. the president fired her because industry leaders. >> i think you might want to figure in the context of the republican's role in this because they stomped her out because they want to protect their interests. >> the president fired her -- >> they don't want somebody bringing moral comp s into the way this country runs. here is the new campaign ad. >> elizabeth warren. she is a janitor's daughter who has become one of the country's fiercest advocates for the middle class. she came up with an idea for a new independent agency with one simple mission, standing up for consumers. >> the big banks tried to stop us but that agency is working to cut the fine print and hold the banks accountable. we can take on the big guys and

win. i'm elizabeth warren and i approve this message. >> i'm elizabeth warren and this guy fired me. you say it off the air and i hate to call you out on it. the banks got her fired. >> totally different. thrown under the bus is different from firing. >> so she was thrown under the bus. barack obama elizabeth warren -- >> you get toot act like an idiot on the set. good for you. >> is that your defense mechani mechanism? >> do you think the republicans have nothing to do with assumptioning hstomping her out. >> i know you don't want to let me talk. let me say the republicans were after her from the beginning but

you don't see elizabeth warren going mitch mcconnell loves me. she has the guy that had the power to make her the head of that agency that she started. what did he do to her? >> i believe he fired her. >> it was more like this. she is like when is the bus coming? hold on a second. when is the bus coming. look, is that harold ford jr. coming? right under the bus. >> i love this laugh you are having. i hope you have the same one when she wins as senator. >> we like her. she should be there. she should and i'm so sorry for scott brown who i think is adorable fwut is not going to happen. are you done? >> when is the bus coming?

julia childs. [ laughter ] go ahead. oh, mika. >> do you think i don't know what the view from under the bus looks like? you idiot. not just the president. and you know the republicans stumped her out. >> you are holding a losing hand. >> i'm not. who doesn't think elizabeth warren is a fantastic candidate? >> we are not knocking her. >> you kind of are. i think it's very insulting. >> i just don't think you're paying attention. >> i don't think the white housewit agree especially president obama. >> he is the one that chunked the body under the bus.

senator brown is al promoting his work with president obama highlighting his efforts to pass bipartisan legislation in washington. >> a few people told me it probably wouldn't be a good idea to go to the white house and be seen with the president signing those bills. i'm like why when the invitation came of course i said yes because i wanted to be there to help see a common sense idea be signed by our president. it was a shared accomplishment that we all did, that we all had a part in to make a difference and move our country forward. in my book that beats sharing the blame for doing nothing at all. >> we still think -- we love elizabeth and scott. it is going to be an incredible race. they have different strengths. elizabeth i turned and said she

may be one of the best natural political candidates i have seen in my life. our next guest was in charged of the cia's enhanced techniques after 9/11. he rose from queens to operating a restaurant empire in new york city joe bastianich has choice words for his competition. let's go to bill karens with a check on the forecast. i guess you didn't have the giggle juice that joe had. the worth of the weather north of kansas city. pretty strong thunderstorms headed through northern missouri. 1,200 lightning strikes over the last hour. we are watching a lot of heavy rain. your severe weather threat today. if you live in areas colored in

yellow a chance of wide spread damaging wind and hail with thunderstorms this afternoon into this evening. travel trouble waking up early i-5. locked in and storm system moving on shore there. definitely an umbrella day. texas looks pretty good. as we take a peek at tomorrow some strong thunderstorms in the great lakes today will make their way to the east coast. watch out washington, d.c. and new york. it will be warm and humid and we could see strong storms in areas that don't typically see a lot. thunderstorms possible later today. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. what happens when classroom teachers get the training... ...and support they need? schools flourish and students blossom.

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people don't understand that this was not about hurting anybody. this program was about instilling a sense of hopelessness and despair on the terrorists, on the detainee so he would conclude on his own that he was better off cooperating with us. >> here is something that was told to me. sent the cia around the globe. not a single plot was foiled. we spent millions chasing phantoms. >> gave us a road map that allowed us to capture a bunch of

al qaeda senior leaders. >> that was the former director of the cia national clandestine service and former head of the national counter agency jose rodriguez jr. jose is out with a new book, "hard measures." he joins us now. welcome to the show. >> i have been saying for several years you can hate enhanced interigation techniques and hate water boarding and hate the agency but please don't lie and say these techniques did not lead us across the globe and help us to destroy al qaeda. >> it was a ten year effort. and the effort actually gained

momentum once we established the enhanced interigation program and started capturing the high command. eventually it destroyed the organization that attacked us on 9/11 and allowed us to get bin laden. >> you mentioned something that i have heard from other people that worked in the agency which it is not to hurt them. you don't want to hurt them. you want to figure out how to get information from them to save american lives, to save the lives of our allies. can you talk about that and how actually everybody that i've talked to that was part of the program said we actually saw them as the most valuable thing on the face of the earth because they had the information we needed to save american lives. >> you will recall our first detainee was severely wounded by

pakistanis. he was almost going to die. we flew in to the black side, one of the best surgeons we could find because we wanted to save his life because we knew how valuable the intelligence would be coming out of him. the program is not about using brute force. we recognize that using brute force does not work. >> torture doesn't work and brute force doesn't work because you get people to stop telling lies. it is more of a mental game than a physical game. i guess the idea is to isolate them because they say the same thing. we are going to get out and when we get out we are going to kill you and your family and destroy america. you have to figure out a way to isolate them so they realize their only hope is giving information. >> that was an important first step. we needed a place where we could

take them where they would be isolated, where they didn't know where they were at, where we could intergate them securely. interigation is a psychology manipulation type of thing. >> it is not abu. talk about waterboarding and answer the question. is it torture? >> the problem that we have received with waterboarding is that critics equate it to the type that was done by the japanese or the nazis. this is not that. our program is based on the u.s. military training program. many people watching the program

understand exactly what i'm talking about because tens of thousands of u.s. service men were waterboarded pursuant to this program to prepare them for the possibility of being captured someday so they would know what it felt like. >> we talk about this off air, a guy that you met who was former chief of staff of mine, a lot of military guys. every time i heard something that was happening they told me this 15 years ago that they went through it before. the idea was to find the weakness of that person so they could start talking. >> having said that you have been fairly public over the past year or so with your position on this. here is an example of some of the response you have gotten from other politicians. we are deeply troubled by the claims of the cia's former

deputy director of operations regarding the effectiveness of the cia's interigation techniques -- >> well, they're wrong. they say they have read 6 million pages. i don't know if they are talking to anybody. they certainly have never talked to me. i read every piece of intelligence and i can tell you that the value of this program was incredible, provided thousands and thousands of reports about al qaeda and the structure, the organization, the chain of command, targets. >> i don't understand that all of these people whether nancy pelosi or feinstein these people

who get briefed about the program and never raised questions with the program and went along with the program, don't they realize this is going to become unclassified someday and these words and statements are going to make them look like fools and hip krts? i'm not calling them that myself. this record becomes public one day and it is all there for all the world to see. >> exactly. >> it's like forensics of the operation. you will be able to trace it back and they were in the room and they got briefed and they never raised an objection until a "washington post" article was written in 2005. >> you are absolutely correct. one thing we did in addition to getting the justice department to tell us it was legal and the president to direct us to do it. once the congress got back from recess 2002 i personally led the

team that went to brief nancy pelosi about the interigation and the use of all of the techniques including waterboarding on him. eventually it is going to come out. >> and you know what they said inside that room? you know what they said after they were briefed on the enhanced techniques? >> keep it up. >> better than that, is that all you guys can do? you got anything else? watching at home i know if you are idea logical you don't like to hear the truth. these people are going to be called out and they are going to look very stupid ten years from now. >> is that all you can do? >> that's what they were saying in 2002. >> if waterboarding is not torture, what is torture? >> brute force. it's breaking of bones.

people passing out from pain. it's blood on the walls. this is the way that some of our hero whose have been tortured tell us what torture is. >> you retired in january of 2008. >> yes. >> why don't you tell people at home what you did for the next three years as a result of your service? >> what happened was that when i retired i was basically about the same day that i retired i was told that i was the subject of a criminal investigation. and they assigned a special prosecutor. and it was a three-year investigation. at the beginning it was very tuf gain employment because i was in the press every day. at the beginning i thought this is so clear, the record is so clear that perhaps it will take twoggoing to take two months.

i can't complain about the prosecutor because he was thorough but fair. it took him three years to conclude that everything we did and this is in relation to the tape was legal. >> i sigh because you know how many friends that not only i have but others have in the community went through this. after 2001 people say please stop this from happening again. democrats in the house and senate, republicans in the house and senate, the white house, they were saying we can do this, this, this. what do you think? please do that. four years later they all have to lawyer up. guess up. they can't afford the lawyers. they come from middle class homes. they live in ranch homes all across america. they haven't seen their families for years.

they prevent a tax and how are they awarded? with investigations where they have to get lawyers because they did what the government asked them to do and they did it well. >> i want to be clear because you would know better than anybody else about the number of detainees who were actually waterboarded over the course of the so-called war on terror. how often was this practice used? >> it was only used three times. >> total? >> total. these are people who are pretty bad actors. mohomed killed 3,000 of our people and cut the throat of wall street reporter. you have one responsible for blowing up uss kohl. and then you have the first detainee that gave us a picture of what was going on with al

qaeda. so three. and the last one was 2003. it was not used that much. >> is waterboarding the most harsh form of interrogation you were able to use? >> sleep deprivation is tough, too. if you look at the other ones. one time i went to the congress and i was briefing a senator who was a marine and when i briefed him he went what? is this it? >> this isn't just in the cia. i was talking about my buddy and other people would stand them up in coffins when they were trying to say this is what you go through if you are -- they would stand them up in boxes and open the door quickly. if they were asleep they would beat them up. these training techniques. when you tell a marine that

sleep deprivation is torture, on what planet? i want to explain something else about waterboarding, too. we have gotten into fights about this on the air. i guarantee people at home will react to this. when these stories started coming out we heard that he was water boarded 172 times and there were actually people that claimed to be experts saying he was brain dead. every time you splashed water on the face. i know it was tough. the way it was counted it is not like his head was dunked under water 172 times. >> there is a big confusion about this because, in fact, 183 pourings of water begame 183 times. he told the red cross that he was subjected to five sessions

of the waterboard. i know that there were a few more times than that but just a handful of times more. part of the problem and the confusion comes from the 2004 i.g. report that used 183 to measure the amount of water. the amount of water was precisely spelled out in the opinion we got from justice department. >> to explain and i know i'm doing myself no favors by doing this. nobody talks about this. you talked about b.s. there has been b.s. and misinformation. i know people are drawing horns on me at home. i'm sorry if you don't like the truth that's your problem. in explaining how your goal is not to torture people that have killed 3,000 americans, will you explain now why waterboarding wouldn't work? because it's not about the torture. it's about the element of surprise.

so waterboarding would not work today, would it? >> none of those techniques would work today? >> because they know it is coming. >> as a matter of fact, you know the president released this information in 2009 against the advice of a couple of directors of central intelligence because we would be giving the enemy exactly the latitude of how far we could go legally to do some of those things. >> we are not interrogating anymore. we are killing. >> even if we tried to bring back some of this i don't think we could. >> thank you very much. the book is "hard measures." . up next the man behind an empire of new york city's restaurants, joe bastianich joins us next on "morning joe." for three hours a week, i'm a coach.

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i think you have to get back to the basics of italian cooking. start with something easier. understanding essence and simplicity. come by my restaurant and i'll

cook pasta with you. i'm going to taste this now but i think you know where we are going with this. >> take the advice and get back to basics. i think we understand each other. >> that was a clip of one of america's premier restaurants, joe bastianich. he joins us now to discuss the new book, "restaurant man." . explain the context of eatilie. the produce department has a vegetarian restaurant. the fish department fish

restaurant, expresso. different experiences so you are not eating at one place. maybe you have a glass of wine and cheese and you move around and shop and eat and shopping makes you hungry to eat and eating in a restaurant makes you want to shop. it all works. >> you just whip people into a frenzy. i have friends who go on on saturday and you don't hear from them until monday. >> told me best steak in new york. took my wife there. guess what? best steak in new york. >> the best steak in new york is a secret that it is not always at a steak house. italian restaurants have great steaks. >> that is amazing. >> how is the restaurant business? >> it is strong. i think the customers demand so much more from us. 40 years ago when i first

started in the business it was immigrants feeding people. now customers demand for us to create experiences. they want to come in and be wowed by the environment, by the dec decor. >> it has become a sport. it's a sport on tv. it's amazing. it's unbelievable. >> can you tell we have a business report on here? can you tell the state of the economy from looking at your restaurants on a weekly or monthly basis? >> the froth of that is a little bit off the top right now because the business in new york is so broad like our restaurants are filled with people from south america, brazilians, russians, more and more chinese. it's not quite as new york centric and manhattan becomes a platform where the world does business. you can't tell the dow on a

day-to-day basis but can tell the global economy is booming as you see people coming in spending money and dining and enjoying new york. we are the beneficiaries of that. >> what is your philosophy moving forward on trying to sort of handle the fact that portions are too big? >> i'm in total agreement. >> come on, man. debbie downer. >> you obviously don't want to -- >> so many different restaurants and so many different expectations and experiences. i think with a certain kind of diner you can trend down the size of the protein. sophisticated diners don't have to have 20 or 30 ounces of protein on their plate. they understand eating in a european kind of way where you have six ounces of lean protein

that starts a balanced kind of plate. more variety on the plate that lowers the food cost. >> how is the portion size? it seemed in the 90s we are going to pile as much on as possible. >> the cost of food in the last five years is doubled if not tripled. commodities tripled in price in the last two years because it follows the price of fuel. you can't do that anymore. you can't sell a 25 or 30 ounce steak for $30 on the plate because it costs that to buy it. >> you started in this business with your mom. >> my parents were restauranteurs. i realized one restaurant wasn't big enough for the two of us and i had to go on my own. >> thank you so much for coming

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>> we have to read into the numbers. we'll do that live tomorrow. we'll be right back. (spoken in mandarin)

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position. >> it was good will for a couple of hours. >> don't dress your kid up in a jacket that looks like a zebra. lions are hungry. let's see the byte. >> take your kid away. >> never go tanning inside your home microwave. >> take it down. >> mike, what didyou learn? >> brian wilams is spectacular. >> great job. >> tonight at 8:00 what did you learn? -- what time is it, willy? the china