good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington leading off tont. the economy added 115,000 jobs last month while the unemployment rate did drop to 8.1%. republicans couldn't wait to cheer the bad news. but the "new york times" columnist and nobel-prize winning economist paul krugman argues that things would be better if the republicans get out of the way. he joins us at the top of the show. also dirty angry money. montana's governor doesn't like much this pac money and politics that is, he's helping to start a prairie fire out west to ban corporate money from politics. the governor joins us here. plus, why do gay republicans want to be in a political party that won't defend them? isn't that a fundamental question? if people don't like you, why are you there? we're going to ask former congressman mark foley. and the secret service agent that protected jacqueline

kennedy, clint hill joins us to tell us what he saw back in november 1963. and let me finish tonight with overdue praise for the secret service. we begin with today's jobs report. paul krugman is the economist for the "new york times." out with a new book "end this depression now." and john heilemann is an editor for new york magazine. thanks for joining us. today's jobs report was a mixed bag, 115,000 jobs were added to payrolls in april. the unemployment rate did drop to 8.1%, the lowest rate since president obama took office. but, however, economic forecasters were predicting bigger growth this month and they saw the smallest jobs gain in six months. that said, in the bigger picture, there have been fairly consistent jobs growth for some time now. take a look at this chart. recession started under the previous president, w., shown in red has been seeing job gains

for the last two years. the obama years are in blue. we can see the uptick there month by month. paul krugman, for a lot of people, you're the ideal, you speak what a lot of people would like to see as policy in this country. i'm going to give you a minute or so and then john to respond about the political possibility of that. if you were in charge, there was no right-wing opposition, no middle-of-the-road opposition, you an economist saying what ought to be fiscal policy, what kind of policy would you run since coming to office for president obama? what would you have done if he could've done anything? >> we should've had a lot more, the stimulus, they hate the word now, the stimulus should have been bigger and more sustained. and above all, there should have been a continuing program of aid to state and local governments so they wouldn't be forced back -- forced to cut their spending, forced to cut employment. we actually passed a landmark. as of the latest jobs report, private sector employment is now back to what it was when barack obama was sworn in as president. but public sector employment has been falling all the way through.

layoffs largely with school teachers which is the big drag on our economy right now and totally wrong-headed. we're not talking about stimulus, we're talking about why are we doing this austerity that is preventing us from a full-fledged recovery. if i could have waved a wand or been dictator for a day, i would have said let's have an adequate, sustained program to keep government spending up, keep people employed until the private sector is ready to spend again. there's other stuff to talk about. we should've had more housing mortgage relief, more aggressive policy from the federal reserve. but that -- this is the time for the government to spend. this is not the time to be cutting back. and if i could have -- if we could've done that. i think you can look at the numbers and say if we had done that, unemployment would be below 7% right now. we would be in just a better situation, we would be well on our way to being out of this whole thing. >> that's if we had one-party rule, john heilemann, but we don't, we have two parties vying for power, preventing each other from doing what they believe.

why would that -- why was that not politically possible? what mr. krugman said, ideal policy, a much more expansionary fiscal policy to states and localities? >> well, i think first, chris, it's not just a two-party system. there are a fair number of conservatives democrats in the senate and house, as well, that would've quailed had barack obama pushed for a much bigger stimulus than he did. i think it's still an open question. given the approval rating he had when he came into office at almost 70%, maybe a little bit above 70% whether he could've done something bigger. the political advisers thought you couldn't get near that $1 trillion number even though some of the economists that work for him that were advocating that and thought that was the right number. political calculation was made. it was very hard to pass that bill even at $800 billion. just barely passed as you remember. and certainly it's the case that after that, there's been no appetite for that kind of expansionary fiscal policy

again. not just -- republicans are certainly steadfast against it, but a lot of democrats not seeing an immediate payoff in terms of the jobs number and economic picture are afraid to go that way. i think one of the biggest mistakes that barack obama made was not to set expectations really low at the very beginning of his administration. not talk about how long it was going to take to get out of the trough by raising expectations that the first stimulus would solve the problem, he created a problem for himself down the line when it didn't work more quickly. >> well, here's this morning -- here's mitt romney -- i want you to respond to romney doing his political. he relished the good night's sleep. here he is enjoying the bad numbers. let's watch. >> we should be seeing numbers in the 500,000 jobs created per month. this is way, way, way off from what should happen in a normal recovery. it's a terrible and very disappointing report this morning. clearly the american people are wondering why this recovery isn't happening faster, why it's taken years and years for the

recovery to occur. >> oh, there you go. mr. krugman, respond to that. romney? >> yeah, the last time we had a president who presided over 500,000 a month job numbers, it was president by the name of bill clinton. this recovery is actually better than the recovery that george w. bush presided over. and since romney is proposing to recapitulate bush policies, why is he saying he would do better? it's terrible. these completely right that this is not what we want to be seeing. but the question is, is romney proposing anything that wouldn't actually make it worse? i think it's important to actually take a look, just not at the united states but overseas. the republican prescription is for big government spending cuts and they've been claiming that will somehow create lots of jobs. we're getting those in europe. take a look at ireland. take a look at spain where they're getting exactly what the republicans say we should do. and those are catastrophes, right? >> you didn't mention the netherlands, the whole problem

in europe rebelling against this slow growth or no-growth policy. the republicans sort of layer it up, though. they say, well, we're going to cut spending, but somehow we're going to stimulate economics. so they go both ways. they say we're going to cut all the programs affecting poor people. the british labor party guy said to me a couple weeks over there said how come right-wingers, guys like romney believe the best way to get poor people to work is to cut them. and the best way to get rich people to work harder give them more. why is it if you screw the poor people they'll somehow be whipped into action somehow? >> yeah, if you're trying to look for a logical explanation, you're not going to find it. but you're going to ask, who are the masters, whose interest are the parties serving? and it's pretty clear. the republican party given a choice between what makes sense economically and what redistributes income from the poor to the rich, reverse robin hood, you know which one they're going to choose. so, yeah, this is -- it's very frustrating for somebody in my

position, of course much more frustrating for the 3.9 million people out of work for more than a year. but to see that we've actually had kind of an acid test of economic doctrines look at what's happened in europe, look at those countries, mostly not in the west. look at countries like south korea that have had effective stimulus programs. we've had an acid test of different economic theorys. keynesian economic doctrine saying now is time for the government to spend more not less has been confirmed by experience. we could end this depression now, end it fast, 18 months probably. >> but would that sell? what about john heilemann's question? how do you sell a deficit of over $2 trillion. you get to 1.6, get to 1.9, american people are going to see 2-1 spending. they're going to say this is world war ii without the bond sales. can you sustain that politically? >> i think that the political people tend to think way too much about the next news cycle. and not enough about how things

play out. that the best political strategy is actually the one that delivers the best results. and let me say even in terms of the short run news cycle. last fall obama made a bid for more economics support which wasn't enacted and didn't expect it to be enacted but he went bigger than people expected. it was bolder. i was happy, i was surprised it was good. apparently his political team were all saying, don't do that, the numbers will scare people. turns out it wasn't that way at all. that the public actually welcomed the prospect that obama was trying to do something. he needs to stand up for what he thinks is right. he needs to say this is the right thing to do and then he has to do a truman and say, look, this is a do-nothing congress standing in the way of getting people jobs. >> it seems to me if he had said i want more than $800 billion plus stimulus package and didn't get it we would've had nothing. so this is the problem of dealing with congress, right? >> it's a problem. and i would never put myself in

a position of arguing economics with paul krugman, but the politics of this. the white house worries about the next news cycle for sure, as does everybody in politics. there's never been a white house, chris, in hour lifetimes that's done more research that polls more intensely, that focus groups more intensely than this white house does. and they would argue that when they've had -- they have had pressure, they've heard from voters who have gotten scared by the size of these deficits. now, i don't disagree at all with paul, obviously job growth, lower unemployment would be the best political remedy for the white house in the long run. but you can't blame them when they go to the country and they talk to people, poll test them over and over again like at the beginning of last year when they tried to do that largely because they were hearing from the public that the public was concerned about debt and deficits and wanted a solution, wanted to see the president do something big and bold on that as much as they wanted to see

some big expansionary fiscal measure. >> i can weigh in on that a little bit. i think you really have to be careful because voters by and large are not actually tracking these things. you say that the public wants lower deficits. would the public even know what's happening to the deficit? there's some polls from the mid-clinton years where they ask do you think the deficit has gone up or down under clinton? and the plurality of voters thought it went up. as we know that was incredible progress in reducing the deficit. when you poll on what voters say they want. you have to step back. i think this is a failing. it's not my business, but i will criticize the political team. i think they tell elaborate stories of what are supposed to be going on in the minds of voters, which is not going on. people look and ask, is this guy trying to make my life better? and that's what they care about, not whether he's -- if he's responding too much to the focus groups, then it loses some ground. >> let's talk about the populism that this administration has engaged in now. how do you connect the fact that the 1% as you say, the 1% of the

1%, the very, very rich, the people spending in all of this super pac money, like 46 individuals and corporations doing most of the spending for these campaigns. how does that -- what's their motivation in fighting your fiscal policy? i'm not sure how that connects. >> yeah, the hard right has always been really against the notion that the government can create jobs. and they've been against it for two reasons. one is if you say the government can do good stuff, then maybe the government actually needs more money which means it has to levee higher taxes on rich people. they want to say that government can never do anything good minimal government i don't want to pay taxes. so they hate the notion it might actually work. and also, there's a big thing in the business world, the right in general which says you need confidence. which we have is confidence and that translates into you can't say anything remotely critical about big business, you can't say anything remotely critical about wall street because that would hurt confidence.

if you say, actually, you know, but we can create jobs through federal programs, by providing aid to states so those school districts can rehire those school districts, then we don't need the confidence so much. this is a club they're holding over the head of the president and they hate the idea there's some alternative that would make that club not so valuable. >> well, the name of your book, of course, "end this depression now." paul krugman, everybody reads you as the ideal. the question is how close can we get to the idea? john heilemann, i wish we had more time for you tonight. we do miss you. one of our two or three favorite guests here. i'm not saying who the other ones are. paul krugman, thank you again. coming up, dirty, angry money, citizens unite open the flood gates. there's dirty, angry money out there and it's all that. he's determined to get corporate money banned from politics. the governor of montana comes here next. this is "hardball." and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard."

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well, they're battleground states and now, of course, battleground cities. the swing cities that will decide this election. and this map the only media markets in the country where obama won in 2008 and bush won in 2004. how about that? these are the markets that will be flooded with ads during the presidential campaign because they go with the winner. and take a look at the commonwealth in virginia, it has three sets of swing markets of the 17 markets, three in virginia, richmond, norfolk, and charlottesville. and speaking of virginia, new numbers on the race there. for that check the "hardball" score board. according to the new "washington post" poll, president obama's leading mitt romney in virginia by seven points down 51-44. without virginia, romney has a very slim path to victory even if he carries ohio and florida. big state for the president. we'll be right back. ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." as part of our "hardball" series, dirty angry money, we're

looking at the influence of those super pacs and the money they have in our electoral system. it stems from that supreme court decision citizens united that decided independent spending by corporations and labor unions in elections could not be banned. well the center of option of that case. essentially a direct defiance of the supreme court citizens united decision. the montana law bars corporate spending in elections. well, yesterday governor brian schweitzer of montana and his republican lieutenant governor john bollinger threw their support behind an initiative that would make it state policy to bar corporate money in politics. governor schweitzer said the business of allowing corporations to bribe their way into government has got to stop. governor schweitzer, thank you so much for joining us. tell us how you as a governor and along with your republican lieutenant governor have the power to challenge this i would

say awful new supreme court ruling that has dirtied up politics? >> well, we have the power because we're citizens of the united states of america. we have the power because in montana we have initiative 166, stand with montanans. and we're simply saying that corporations are not people. corporations will not be allowed to bribe their way into our state capital or even in washington, d.c. there's something perverse about this. in 1977, congress said the corrupt foreign practices act made it against the law for american corporations to bribe politicians in other countries. now they're saying they can bribe them in the united states. so we have a monopoly on bribery in this country? what is this saying to the rest of the world? look, corporations spend money in elections so that they can get something. they get something which means lower taxes or less regulation. you can't describe it any other way. me as a shareholder, i don't dislike corporations, but if i were to ask my corporate ceo why were we giving money in that

last election? well, he'd have to say to you because we want to get something for every buck we spent, we got $5 back. that's bribery. >> you would think if that were -- by the way, if this is really to make more money for people -- in other words get the right politicians in who will do your number, march to your tune and all, you might as well get a tax deduction for it. let's go all the way with this absurdity. really if it's in your business interest to buy a politician, well, that's just another cost of doing business. perhaps that's carrying it to absurdity. let me ask you about this system. right now we were looking at numbers just to help you make your case, perhaps. something like 46 people and corporations are provided a lion share of all the corporate money, all this money of running a campaign is down to less than 50 people right now. it's a few people like the koch brothers and sheldon adelson. it's getting back to that, in

our republic. >> well, it's even worse than that. again, i'm not anti-corporation, i'm a shareholder like a lot of america is. but if you own a little corporation and family corporation you might say, well, we might want to get involved in politics too. we have an extra $5,000 or $10,000, we may want to get this invested. you are a piker. if you compare yourself to big pharma, to insurance, to the military defense contractors, you can never catch up. there isn't any possibility that you're going to have a place at the table. it's a couple of dozen multi-national corporations that will decide our election. and by the way, these multi-national corporations, they are also owned by foreign nationals. are we also saying that if you are a resident of germany or japan or even china or iran and you are a shareholder in a corporation that now you get to have a role in american elections? come on. nobody's accepting that. >> let me ask you about how you're going to do this. it seems to me we're looking down the road to probably the worst amount of spending in american history on both sides

because the obama people have to match it. but here you have this negative advertisement that has no signature on it in many cases, it's totally a negative in almost every case. they trashed some opponents, all the republicans will trash obama. the democrats trash romney. all the terrible things they say. nobody wants to vote. my question is you have a 1912 law. what do you do now? you go to the supreme court -- is roberts thinking he may have made a mistake? is judge roberts -- i've heard this rumor that they're kind of embarrassed by this series of decisions that has added up to this mayhem. is there any chance they'll reverse? >> well, they damang sure oughto be embarrassed by this. we will have a ballot that says we reaffirm that corporations aren't people, that corporations can't bribe people in these elections. it will be on our ballot, and we're hoping that other states now this ballot will also direct our congressional delegation to support a constitutional amendment that simply says that

corporations are not people and that they cannot bribe politicians. now, montana maybe has to go first again. we went first in 1912 when we banned corporations in our elections. and we don't mind going first this time. we understand what corporations can do when they own an entire state. the copper kings, they owned all of montana, lock, stock, and barrel, and it was montanans that stood up and said, not in montana. if we can get this prairie fire started in montana, when people hear about this in other states, they will demand from their congressional members to pass the constitutional amendment to make hour elections clean again. otherwise, foreigners by investing in american corporations will be involved in our elections, corporations will be able to bribe other members to get whatever tax and regulatory treatment they want. this is not the american way. this is not what made this country great. and we want -- we want americans to stand up. and we'll start right here in montana, thank you very much. >> and i think it's amazing the

point you make just to finish up for you, sir. you've done a great job making the point. but the fact you can go to jail for bribing mexican officials, but you can do it here under the law. anyway, thank you, governor brian schweitzer for coming in with your campaign. good luck with that. now that newt gingrich is out of the race, does he still think mitt romney's a liar? that was the word he used again and again. wait until you see newt dance around that question now that he wants to be part of the katilian coming to washington. tter results in ap courses. together, they raised ap test scores 138%. just imagine our potential... ...if the other states joined them. let's raise our scores. let's invest in our teachers and inspire our students. let's solve this.

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t there. [ male announcer ] sustainable solutions. - one serving of cheese is tone serving of cereal,ere. a baseball. and one serving of fruit, a tennis ball. - you know, both parties agree. our kids can be healthier... the more you know. back to "hardball." now for the "side show." now that newt gingrich is preparing himself for the torture of endorsing mitt rom y romney, people are waiting to see if he'll take back some of his romney bashing from the primary season. let's take a look at one of those zingers from a few months back and how newt danced around

it in an interview last night. >> i have to ask you, are you calling mitt romney a liar? >> yes. >> you believe mitt romney's a liar? >> i believe the romney campaign said things that weren't true. >> is mitt romney -- is mitt romney a liar? >> the governor said things at times that weren't true. >> wow, so for newt gingrich, lying is now a matter of degree. he said something else. if you want to think about all that but forgot the michele bachmann campaign, here's a reminder. >> what people recognize is there's a fear that the united states is in an unstoppable decline. they see the rise of china, the rise of india, the rise of the soviet union. and our loss militarily going forward. >> again, that old bugaboo about forgetting the cold war and the soviet union have ceased to exist over 20 years ago. here she is, by the way, reminiscing with cbn's david brodie earlier this week.

>> you actually ran close to an impeccable campaign in terms of a mistake-free campaign. >> thank you, it really was. it really was. we were extremely careful and we were almost mistake-free. but for those two points. elvis presley's birthday and john wayne's birthplace. i apologized and we'll move on. >> she and john wayne both coming from waterloo, iowa, not realizing that john wayne from waterloo was serial killer john wayne gasey, not the duke. you may recall this 1984 reagan campaign ad about bears in the woods. >> there's a bear in the woods for some people, the bear is easy to see. others don't see it at all. some people say the bear is tame, others say it's vicious. and dangerous. since no one can really be sure who's right, isn't it smart to be as strong as the bear?

if there is a bear? >> powerful ad. well, last month, vermont's governor discovered bears in the woods, as well, four of them to be exact. he says he woke up in the middle of the night to the sound of four bears in his backyard at which point he burst on to the scene to retrieve his bird feeders and wound up getting chased by one of the bears. brock, the republican challenger apparent lly couldn't resist a reagan throwback. >> there is a bear in the woods. for most people in vermont, the bear is easy to see. why can't governor shumlin see any of the bears? job-killing cloud taxes, health care choices and freedom being taken. why can't governor shumlin see any of them? isn't it smart to look out for bears since there are bears? >> i think the reagan one was better, sorry. anyway, up next, here's a big question after that romney

staffer was pressured to quit. why do gay republicans want to belong to a party that won't stand up for them? we're going to ask mark foley. you're watching "hardball." an accident doesn't have to slow you down. with better car replacement, if your car is totaled, we give you the money for a car one model year newer. liberty mutual auto insurance. mom! look what i found in the shed! no! no! no! ♪ were you guys just making out in here? what? no! really, cold cuts from a package? yes. [ male announcer ] it's nice to finally say "yes." new oscar mayer selects. it's yes food. i'm michael bazinet, president of creative digital imaging of bangor, maine. we have customers all over the united states. we rely on the postal service for everything that we do. the eastern maine processing facility is vital to our operation and our success. if we lose this processing facility we could lose clientele because of increased mailing times. we would have to consider layoffs

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i'm tyler mathison with your cnbc market wrap. the dow sliding 168 points, s&p off 22, nasdaq down by 68 as chris mentioned, the big news of the day was that april jobs report. the economy adding much fewer than expected, 115,000 fresh payroll jobs. the unemployment rate did slide, however, to 8.1%. lowest in three years. also sliding today, oil prices. not all bad news. they settled under $100 a barrel. one big gainer, linkedin serged more than 7% on a better than expected earnings report.

that's first from cnbc. now back to "hardball." we wanted him to stay with our team. and he's a very accomplished spokesperson. and we select people not based upon their ethnicity or their sexual preference or their gender but upon their capability. he was a capable individual, we're sorry to have him go. and actually, a whole series of the senior people in my team and my supporters called him and encouraged him to stay. but he expressed a desire to move on, and i wish him the very best. >> i think that's why people don't trust politicians. welcome back to "hardball." that was presidential candidate mitt romney's public remark regarding the resignation of richard grenell, an openly gay man who had been hired a couple of days ago, actually, as his foreign policy spokesperson for

the campaign. the question romney was asked was what was your response to his resignation? but that neglects the larger question if he says he was such an asset, why won't the candidate himself, mitt romney, simply say on that show he was just on, i want you back on the campaign. he won't do it. and a larger question, why would an openly gay person like richard grenell want to be part of a party that won't stand up for him again and again and again? mark foley joins us now. let's talk about it. gay man -- >> yes, sir. >> we also have with us fred carger. he's on six ballots, making a point. we'll get to you. i know this guy, i don't know you. mark, look, i am -- i study politics. but common sense tells you that mitt romney is b.s.'ing us there. he could've simply said two days ago, don't quit, i need you, buddy. i need you. don't listen to these guys around you.

i need you. don't listen to the right-wing guy on the radio, i need you. instead, he lets his staffers call up the guy right before a big briefing which richard grenell, the guy who left this campaign actually set up and said the campaign has requested you not speak on this call. it's best to lay low now. so go on the down low, we don't really want you to be known to be our spokesman because you're gay. why do people put up with this? >> well, they shouldn't, but i honestly believe -- >> why doesn't he tell him to stay? >> too much distraction -- when your spokesperson becomes a distraction in the news cycle. >> distraction to whom? >> to the campaign -- >> wouldn't it be a good distraction if mitt romney were known as a guy who stands up to people? wouldn't that be the kind of signal to show his character? wouldn't that be good for him? >> he's an incredible person. he deserves the job and myth should've stood up for him. >> this is the problem. let me ask it this way, mark. i'm going to ask you it this way. if that guy, mitt romney, this

afternoon after we close tonight, 2:00 in the morning wakes up and says, damn it, i made a mistake and says rehire that guy. wouldn't you be thrilled? >> i would be. >> there's my point. it would show guts. >> and i think that's what's lacking. i think that's what's lacking. look at what the white house did to hillary on the comments she made about mrs. romney. they almost acted like they never met her. >> that's because they said mrs. romney never worked a day in her life. >> when you make a mistake, a tactical mistake, you get punished, sent to the wood chair. >> what's more of a tactical mistake? being gay? >> no, i'd like to know. >> you are such a team player. let me go to fred who is not a team player. here we're getting to a fundamental point. i've worked in politics since 1971, longer than this guy's been involved in it. i've got to tell you, i've always known there were gay people working at high levels in the republican party. from the top, it's a known fact in both parties, it's part of

the world we live in in politics and journalism and everywhere else. now my question is, why do they continue to serve a party that will not even give lip service to the rights of the people who work so hard for them. fred? >> well, i actually have met good fortune with the republican party both at the national level, state, county level, i've been speaking, treated very, very well. my problem, chris, has been with these third-party groups like the brian fishers of the world, the american family association, the association -- >> you mean the allies? you mean the allies? not exactly independent. these are the right wing evangelical coalition which has built the republican majority. how can you say they're outside? they're part of the team. >> i think they are. they're driving people away. they're driving a lot of people away. and don't forget, brian fisher was attacking romney and his faith a few weeks earlier before romney caved in and got rid of rick grenell. >> message to gay men and women,

mitt romney would rather have the crazy religious nuts on his side than you guys. >> exactly. exactly. >> the party will be marginalized. the party will continue to be marginalized. they exclude hispanics, women, and gays. >> you've worked in congress, you know a lot of people have always accepted you. i never thought much about it, but fine. here's my question. republicans and democrats basically from your experience socially and politically have about the same percentage of gays in the party, right? >> absolutely. >> there's no gays and democrats. they say they're for same-sex, make noise -- >> not all of them. they do to some degree. >> but they're actively participating in the leadership decisions of the party on issues affecting them. why don't gay men and women get involved in the leadership decisions and platform decisions? your party's probably going to come out against -- it should probably stay neutral since they can't say anything positively on

same sex. it probably will have a platform plank that says we're against it. >> which is regrettable. they are working hard, they are trying their best. >> did they get on the floor of the convention? let me go back to fred. this is you guys laugh it off. you guys have good spirit about -- you're great party members. isn't it odd that a major percentage say 1 out of 20, 1 out of 10, i don't know the percentage is these days of a party can't speak for its own interest? isn't that weird? >> well, we're trying, i think mark and i are trying to change things from within. it would be very easy to leave the republican party and then the crazies would truly take over. but, you know, don't forget the president of the united states is still evolving on gay marriage. we have people like laura bush and dick cheney who support it. >> he's not evolving against you, he's evolving for you. >> he did evolve against it. he supported it. he supported it in '96. >> i know. i know. i know. >> now he evolved against it.

>> i know. >> remember when clinton signed the non-discrimination pledge. >> well, we know which way he's evolving. >> i had to go to gingrich and said if you're serious about letting people who are gay get fired from their jobs because of orientation, you better give a pink slip to half of the building over at the nrcc. >> what did newt say to that? >> he looked at me like stunned but he shouldn't have been stunned. >> he was surprised. >> he was to some degree surprised because i don't think people look at each other and say, gay, credible, gay, not credible. i think there is an evolution. it's sad that there are those who use that as a litmus test. >> let me ask you this, there's a new phrase i've learned in this discussion which i find fascinating. the glass closet. you don't put up a sign, it's not official. it's funny to you. but it's when everybody around you knows but nobody's putting up a sign saying we hire gays, just everybody knows it, right?

so if that's the norm for -- >> i live it. >> you live it? >> no, i lived -- i lived that life for 30 years. now i look at the rainbow glass ceiling as a way of breaking out. i know a lot of people who have come out, there's a lot of dialogue because of rick grenell and his courage here that have come out as a result of him. so romney, i was on the same program with romney at the lincoln day breakfast in michigan right before the primary there. he had mentioned lincoln once, none of the other speakers except me mentioned lincoln. it's not just as mark says ducking away from the gay issues, also away from immigration, from women. they're driving so many people from the republican party they have a death wish. >> yeah, they're in war with the guy on the other side of that civil war. >> remember the problem the senior bush had when buchanan gave that ugly speech at the convention. >> the cross-dressing speech. >> he was rebuked. >> you're laughing at all my comments.

i like you already. thank you, mark foley, buddy. thank you, fred karger, good luck in your campaign in the six states you served well on the ballot. up next, the secret service agent assigned to jackie kennedy. he was body guard for jfk that day in dallas. and it became one of her closest friends. the great clint hill next on "hardball." we do everything here. this is "hardball." drink? ♪ power surge, let it blow your mind. [ male announcer ] for fruits, veggies and natural green tea energy... new v8 v-fusion plus energy. could've had a v8. new v8 v-fusion plus energy. i've been crisscrossing the gulf i can tell you, down here,. people measure commitment by what's getting done. i'm mike utsler, and it's my job to make sure we keep making progress in the gulf. the twenty billion dollars bp committed has helped fund economic and environmental recovery. another fourteen billion dollars has been spent on response and cleanup.

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well, there's trouble brewing for six-term senator richard lugar of indiana. let's check the "hardball" score board. he trails his challenger richard mourdock by ten points. he is in trouble. mourdock 48%. this is an ongoing story. the moderates like lugar are getting squeezed out to the far right. and a win may put the senate seat in play for the fall. lugar easily beating a democratic candidate. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] this is genco services --

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we're back. november 22nd, 1963 is the day that haunts the american memory, perhaps no one more so than clint hill, the secret service agent who raced up to the motorcade as lee harvey oswald fired the shots. hill climbed on to the back of the president's car just moments, seconds really after the third fatal shot and positioned himself over the first lady to protect her and the president. clint hill was assigned to jackie kennedy's security detail for four years back then. he recounts the whole experience finally now in his new book "mrs. kennedy and me." i guess the question, clint, is why you waited to write this incredible guess the question you wait? >> i vowed i would never write or contribute to a book of any kind. i met lisa, and i began to trust her. and she convinced me my story

should be documented, and i finally agreed and that is what we decided to do. >> you heard the shots. and you raced to the car, what happened then. >> i raced to the car, but just before i got there, the third shot was fired. i didn't hear the second shot because i was running. the third hit the president in the head, and it was a tremendous wound, calling blood and brain matter to come out in the car. about that time mrs. kennedy came up towards the trunk of the car. i pushed her back into the seat, and the president's body fell into her lap. >> the car was continuously moving. it starting to accelerate. i slipped and i had to run a

couple extra stepped. i want today form a shield because we had no idea how many shots would be fired and what was going on. >> when you went back, 1990, and it's so strange for me to see those photos. it didn't look like a hard shot. >> you look at it, the impact point on the street, it wasn't that hard at all. >> and he has a telescopic lens and he was trained. >> yes, and we didn't have a chance to get to him. >> today, you know, anywhere near the white house or near the president now we saw with the vice president coming to the studio today, there is so much secret service now and surveillance, you could not stick a riffle barrel out a window. >> i don't think he even had it

out of the window, the barrel was on the sill. >> could you do that today? >> yes, but the president would be in a fully open car. >> the other thing i think a lot of people wondered about is the bubble top, it was still not bullet proof, right? >> no, it was just plastic. >> i think this guy was trying to get nixon one day, harvey oswald had that set. i think it's simple, he loved castro, the story all makes sense to me. did you ever form any conclusions yourself? >> he was a long shooter. one shot, three shots. >> let me ask you about jackie kennedy. what was she like? >> she was a wonderful woman, a

great hands on more. dedicat dedicated, athletic, loved to ride horses, water ski. she loved you guys, i got ahold of the first typed text, and she talked about you and how much you loved the family and looked out for them. it was very personal. . >> we were very close, and we were very close with john and caroline. i was gone from my family 80- to 90% of the time. my kids grew up without me because i was always working. always with her. took her to dinner. >> looked out for her. >> i love the idea of john john practicing, i saw a picture of him where she was rehearsing. >> yeah, she -- prior to 1963.

>> "mrs. kennedy and me" it's a great book if you care about our country and a real sentiment we all have about this guy here, clint hill. when we return, let me finish with my praise for the secret service. elp? uh, nope. just, uh, checking out my ad. nice. but, y'know, with every door direct mail from the postal service, you'll find the customers that matter most: the ones in your neighborhood. print it yourself or find a local partner. and postage is under 15 cents. i wish i would have known that cause i really don't think i chose the best location. it's not so bad... i mean you got a deal... right? [ bird cries ] go online to reach every home, every address, every time with every door direct mail. not in this economy. we also have zero free time, and my dad moving in. so we went to fidelity. we looked at our family's goals and some ways

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this. we just had client hill on to talk about his work with the secret service. there are thousands of others, peek like jerry parr who saved a president's life. if he had not done what he did from the scene of the assassination attempt, there is a real question if reagan would have made it. i don't doubt there are many stories like this, stories of courage and self-sacrifice, and because of a few knuckle heads, their reputations that been harmed for a little while. we have a couple stories for made bad stories to leak out. if they were bunt we would will sharing them now. the tabs would be feasting on them.

clint hill's story, what he did to try to protect president kennedy and his wife, are among the real stories, along with jerry parr. people want to grow up, even now, to some day take their place. every time i walk through the white house gait i'm impressesed by the professionalism of the secret service. i'm glad a few knuckleheads with alcohol making dad decisions is done. it is not the story of these men's careers, and certainly not of the justifiably proud secret service. that's "hardball" for now, thank you for being with us, "politicsnation" is al sharpton starts right now. >> welcome