tournament in the bahamas watching "way too early." "morning joe" starts right now. now we face a choice. for last new year's, the republicans who run this congress have insisted that we go right back to policies that created this mess. republicans in congress have found a nominee for president who's promised to rubber stamp this agenda if he gets the chance. boo! ! >> ohio, i tell you what, we cannot give him that chance. not now, not with so much at stake. good morning. it is monday, may 7. look at that pretty shot of the capital. welcome to "morning joe." we are here in washington. and with us onset, msnbc "time"

magazine senior political analyst mark halperin. editor of "the huffington post" sam stein. and contributor to "newsweek" and "the daily beast," mark mckinnon. >> we need a close-up shot. >> i don't think i want to see. oh, god. it's too early. >> look at that, willie. look at that. >> why you gotta? >> it's a good-looking scarf, my friend. >> stay thirsty, my friend. >> the red sox game turned into a company picnic softball game. they're bringing in the first baseman and the right fielder to pitch. what's going on here? >> i thought they were going to bring barnicle to pitch the 18th. he sits close enough to the action, they could have just called in the big right-hander. >> explain what happened. >> well, it was a 17-inning game. the red sox looking to avoid a sweep. they went through all their pitchers. both teams did. here you have the designated

hitter for the orioles coming in, striking out -- chris davis striking out two red sox. he was 0 for 8 in the game, but was the hero when he struck out two red sox in the bottom of the 17th. and at the top of the inning, red sox bring in one of their position players who serves up a three-run home run to adam jones, which cost them the game, but they just ran out of pitchers. >> and the red sox swept by the baltimore orioles this weekend. and the orioles right now the class of the american league east. >> best record in baseball as of this morning. the best record in baseball. >> goodness. that is crazy. absolutely crazy. do you know what else is crazy, willie? >> france. >> france. >> in the midst of austerity, you decide, well, you know how we get out of this mess, out of this hole? we elect a guy that promises to lower the retirement age to 60, and is fighting for what you and

i actually live every week, a 35-hour work week. spending more money than ever before. it is a stunning turn. not only in france, but also in greece. europe is just not facing up to the realities of this debt crisis. >> yeah. and hollande also has proposed a 75% top end tax rate on the highest earners inside france. this is obviously a huge response to what's been happening. it causes some problems now with germany. it's making things very complicated across europe for sure. >> it certainly will make things very complicated for france. and i knowledge you'think you'r a lot of money run away from the country. and also greece, very depressing they are the top two parties. the coalition that put together the austerity deal that was

allowing greece to stay above water. lost. >> let's lay it out for people. a political backlash against fiscal austerity is sweeping across europe this morning. in france, francois hollande defeated nicolas sarkozy in a runoff election yesterday, the latest in a string of leaders to fall. it signals a shift to the left as france deals with its struggling economy. it marks a clear rejection of president sarkozy's attempts to control the debt crisis through austerity measures. hollande insists there are other ways to trigger economic growth. the president elect's plan promises more government spending and more government jobs. he also plans to increase taxes on wealthy individuals and big corporations. sarkozy thanked his supporters on sunday, saying he tried his

best to win re-election despite widespread anger at his handling of the economy. the french president lost a second term by 4% of the vote. and moving on to greece now, voters are also fed up with austerity measures there. >> they have been so fiscally irresponsible for so long now, i can understand. it has been a rough 3 1/2 weeks. >> far from realistic. >> no. it's been a rough 3 1/2 weeks. come on. >> in yesterday's parliamentary elections, the majority of greeks came out against the country's two major parties, rejecting the international bailout. instead, voters are backing smaller fringe groups that oppose austerity. the future of the country's $171 billion rescue package is now in doubt. not only could greece go bankrupt, but it could also put the country's european allies on the hook for billions of dollars. >> ed's new book is titled,

"time to start thinking america in the age of dissent." we americans love to joke about french socialists and compare our latest democratic opponent to those socialists over in france. but the fact of the matter is, this is only the second time a socialist has been elected president since the founding of the fifth republic in 1958. this is a pretty extraordinary moment for this country, isn't it? >> it is. it's the first time for a quarter of a century. it's not just a big event for france, of course. this is a big event for europe. because you are now beginning to see more and more governments mo spekt moest spectacularly yesterday with france, but a very explicit anti-austerity camp which in effect is an opposition within europe rising

to angela merkel. and i think the most interesting thing about this is that merkel is going to have to -- she did endorse sarkozy. this was very upusual. she even offered to campaign for him, which would have broken all precedent to have a german leader campaigning for one side in a french election. sarkozy then clearly understood it wouldn't help his chances. >> if i can correct you, hitler did it for the vicci government. so maybe that was -- >> well, that's true. >> that was a concern for sarkozy. but let's talk, though, about how much of this was a repudiation of merkel's vision of europe, and how much of it was a repudiation of sarkozy's brusque style? >> i think the latter can't be discounted. and we shouldn't forget, you know, this wasn't an election just about fiscal plans or austerity. sarkozy had some pretty radical, some pretty right-wing proposals

to restrict immigration, to deintegrate, if you like, to disintegrate european free movement of peoples. and in an attempt to try and get some of the national front, the front nationale voters. he didn't get enough. but there is a clear repudiation of that as well. sarkozy was a very mercuryial president, and i think the french were tired of it. and i think the fact that hollande real sold his boringness and the french like his boringness right now, that shouldn't be discounted either. it's not just about the euro. >> all right. >> quick question. obviously, there's tremendous ripple effects to all of this. but one of them could be felt in england, which is obviously in a double dip recession right now. and i'm wondering has the cameron government looked at this and decided maybe it's time to change course with its own austerity plan, or are they staying the course in light of

the economic data that's coming from england right now? >> no. they are doubling down with a double dip recession. cameron is actually preparing to reinforce his support or underline his support for the spending cuts that have yet really -- the full impact has yet really to begin in britain. we are only at the early stages. of course, in a spectacular piece of diplomacy, cameron basically snubbed hollande when hollande came over to london the other day to campaign amongst french ex-patriots working there. cameron refused to see him. so he and merkel have very much taken one side in the french debate. and it will be interesting to see how hollande responds to them. >> all right. ed luce, stand by. we'll get to politics now and look at some battle ground states and how they are doing

a new "usa today" gallop poll is breaking down the race in the top 12 swing states. it's the first look at the states since mitt romney emerged as the republican nominee. right now, head-to-head matchup is a statistical tie. the president leads romney by two points, well within the margin of error. for the first time since last fall, democrats are more likely than republicans to say they are extremely or very enthusiastic about voting. the 11-point advantage is a dramatic swing from the end of last year, when republicans held a 14-point edge. 52% believe the president would do a good job on the economy over the next four years. 60% say that of mitt romney. a new politico-george washington university poll takes a look at the election and also finds six months away from election day that president obama and mitt romney are in a dead heat, with romney opening up a 10-point lead in independent voters.

but when if comes to likability, 70% approve of obama while only 56% approve of romney. approval of congress, only at 13%. >> and who are those 13%? >> do members of congress vote in that poll? >> obviously both camps are furiously fighting for independent voters who swung against mitt romney during the battle between rick santorum and romney. now they are swinging back, it seems, to the gop. but that's the battle, isn't it? >> it is the battle. because the consolidation on the base is almost total. romney now has much of the republican party, as the president has the democratic party. and these national polls are funny now. you don't just do battle ground states. the president's numbers in the red states is so low and the

romney's numbers are so low in blue states, they kind of cancel each other out. but they'll see a lot of ads between now and the conventions. david axelrod said over the weekend, this thing will basically be decided before labor day because of the opinion of those people are going to be set. that's not entirely true. there will be some undecided voters. >> he thinks it will be decided? >> he said opinions will be pretty set by labor day. >> i strongly disagree. >> what gets me is the lack of enthusiasm on the republican side. do you see that as just a malaise from the primaries or how do you explain that? >> as you know, there's still a lot of question marks about the candidate. governor romney in some ways is a shocking person to have emerged in today's republican party as a nominee. i think people still haven't warmed to him. >> the lack of enthusiasm is on the moderate side, not with the conservatives. >> but isn't that great news for romney? if he closes that gap in

likability, with the economic news from europe, he is sitting in a very enviable position. >> the fact that it's close and romney has nowhere to go but up really. it's pretty startling. >> and we know that's what these nominating processes are all about. you go to the conventions, and it's a three-day commercial. and that's when people start looking for the first time. i remember my dad in 1988 saying, the end of the democratic convention, i really like this dukakis guy, to which i responded, but who do you like more, your grandkids or dukakis? if you want to see your grandkids, i don't want to hear that again. >> if you're romney's people, do you do a bunch of positive ads or go after obama? >> well, i think right now you keep doing what you're doing. and i think this is going to happen naturally. the obama people are going to be pounding romney, and he's going to bounce back. >> the president started over the weekend. what they'll try to do is define romney on negative terms. the president started that. and i think you'll see a lot more ads. >> the guy with more potential

to grow is romney. >> but also less defined. >> young voters are abandoning obama but not running to romney. young millenials are les politically engaged and less enthusiastic. just 64% are registered to vote compared to 73% four years ago. president obama is in trouble. just 50% of college-age youth approve of his performance overall. that's five points less than their 25-29-year-old peers. while that general measure issiis trending upward from a low point in december 2007, just 43% think that obama will win re-election, with 29% thinking he will lose and 28% unsure. >> young voters are really up for grabs. >> great work from harvard. this issa the democrats' enthusiasm gap among young voters who were such a key constituency. the enthusiasm level there has

dropped from 64% in '08 to 47% now, with only 47% supporting president obama. there's not that much enthusiasm for romney. but if it's really going to be an enthusiasm race among the base, this is a problem for the president. >> you look at who this economy is hurting most, and just look at long-term trends. the bull's-eye is really on the backs of the young voters. we talked about social security, medicare an awful lot. that burden falls on the young. who know they're not going to get social security or medicare as long as the old guys in washington keep acting as irresponsibly as they are. we have a $16 trillion, soon to be $17 trillion debt. the young voters of america know that's all going to fall on them. sam, i hate to keep pounding this independent drum, but young voters, and i define now young

anybody younger than me, so that's a large swath. >> well, that would be almost everybody, joe. >> more and more young voters have become independent. >> yeah. >> definitely. >> i think 2008 was sort of the exception to the rule obviously, because there was such an unbelievable excitement around this candidacy that represented something that was totally different. it was the post partisan candidacy. enough of this bickering. let's move on. and i think what's happened over the past three years is you saw obama dragged into the mess he said he was going to rise above. that's disillusioned a lot of people. i get your points about the debt and the job market. i think the job market matters more to young voters than the debt. but i think a lot of the problem is they look at washington and basically see it as this totally out of touch, tote all unworkable entity that they want to give up on. and that's the problem. they're just not engaged. and for good reason too. >> what's surprising to me is that this group is more right of center than you might imagine.

four in 10 believe cutting taxes is the key to growth. only 19% say government spending. and on the top 10 issues, creating jobs is one. but then reducing the deficit, lowering the debt burden, energy independence, health care, and climate change is last. >> this is the political reality not just for the united states but even more dramatically for europe. there's a ticking debt bomb that the next generation of voters have to be concerned about. >> yeah. i mean, i think we're focused quite rightly on the differences between america and europe. the american dollar is not under threat of breaking up the american union. it's not under the specter of disintegration. but what the -- the trends of the two great developed regions of the world have in common, the more enduring and more interesting ones, and things are looking bleak on both sides of the atlantic. it's a horrible thing to say.

but to be young nowadays in europe or america is to have a deep sense of foreboding from the word go. >> good lord. thank you for that bright sunny outlook on this monday morning. >> i know. so cheerful in the morning. >> that's why "the new york times" said that his book instead of being called time to start thinking should have been called "time to start drinking." >> absolutely. >> thank you so much. >> it is time. >> and in britain's case, time to start sniffing glue in you're looking at the british outlook. [ laughter ] ed, thank you very much. >> thank you, ed. great to see you. senator ron wyden will join us coming up. arnie duncan. and david ig-nate yus. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill?

>> good morning, mika. hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. thunderstorms once again this weekend the top weather headline. this time, we're in ohio, illinois, and areas of indiana. on the radar, over 5,000 lightning strikes in the last hour in this region from champaign, illinois, from fort wayne to toledo. strafling interstate 80 right now, that's a rough drive. through the afternoon hours, we'll also see storms expanding into kentucky, tennessee. watch out lexington, louisville, nashville, and down to memphis. east coast, you're ok today. but all of these thunderstorms and heavy rain will head your way tomorrow. so the forecast, late day afternoon showers and storms for buffalo to pittsburgh. once again, you're dry during the day from philly to new york and d.c., but later this evening after dark, the rain will move in. the southeast pop-up storms today, the west coast is absolutely gorgeous. here is a look at tomorrow. just look at the eastern half of the country. just about everyone has a chance of wet weather.

looks like a soaker tuesday and wednesday for much of the eastern seaboard. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. hi, i just switched jobs, and i want to roll over my old 401(k) into a fidelity ira. man: okay, no problem. it's easy to get started; i can help you with the paperwork. um...this green line just appeared on my floor. yeah, that's fidelity helping you reach your financial goals. could you hold on a second? it's your money. roll over your old 401(k) into a fidelity ira and take control of your personal economy. this is going to be helpful. call or come in today. fidelity investments. turn here.

how math and science kind of makes the world work. in high school, i had a physics teacher by the name of mr. davies. he made physics more than theoretical, he made it real for me. we built a guitar, we did things with electronics and mother boards. that's where the interest in engineering came from. so now, as an engineer, i have a career that speaks to that passion. thank you, mr. davies.

23 past the hour. a live look at the white house. time to look at the morning papers. we'll start with "the washington post." on the front page of "the post," the u.s. for several years has been releasing high level detainees from a military prison in afghanistan as a way to negotiate with sergeant groups. >> it's been working. >> the strategic release program has quietly allowed american officials to use prisoners as bargaining chips in areas where military power has reached its limits. u.s. officials acknowledge that the releases are a gamble. >> oh, really? >> stop it. >> another high-level killing over the weekend, this time in

yemen. putin will be swarn inorn i office today for a historic third president. >> love t. >> i thought stalin held on for more than three times. >> when will we see him with the shirt off? >> it won't happen soon enough. >> in moscow, 27,000 people were protesting. this photo shows retired general stanley mcchrystal teaching a leadership course at yale. some 200 students applied for the 20 spots. mcchrystal used the experience as a teachable moment. >> he is a great guy. we had him on, brilliant guy. >> dan senor could learn a thing or two from him. that would be a teachable moment, dan seenor.

a record number of democratic women are running for senate seats this year. the 11 include six incumbents and at least five challengers. among the most watched races, elizabeth warren's challenge to republican senator scott brown in massachusetts. boy, that's going to be a big one, willie. big one. willie, did you see yesterday barack obama finally came out and barack obama is in support of gay marriage, right? >> do you want to start there with mr. vandy high? >> well, he is for gay marriage. oh, wait. no, he's not. >> he's implicitly in support of that. >> you want to start with that? >> this president has not flip flopped. he has always been against gay marriage. and he still is against gay marriage. unlike dick cheney. he is actually as we were saying here he is actually not as progressive as dick cheney on the issue of gay marriage.

>> let's play the clip you're talking about. i think i know where you're headed. we'll bring in jim from down in washington. good morning. >> good morning. >> this is joe biden yesterday with david gregory. >> i am vice president of the united states of america. the president sets the policy. i am absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying women, and heterosexual partners, are entitled to the same rights, all the civil rights and all the civil liberties. and i don't see much of a distinction beyond that. >> the white house said that the vice president was saying what the president had said previously, that committed and loving same-sex couples deserve the same rights and protections enjoyed by all americans. we oppose any efforts to roll back those rights, et cetera, et cetera. was this calculated, jim? did vice president biden know

what he was saying or was this joe biden being joe biden? >> it certainly seems like it was joe biden being joe biden, given how much scrambling there was after he made those remarks. and we talked to a lot of folks yesterday in the gay rights community. and they are frustrated because they want the president to come out and unequivocally state he is for gay marriage. and he has not. and that's why there is frustration from gay rights activists since the beginning the administration. it continues to linger given that they feel he is making this evolution. he says privately he is making the evolution but he hasn't. >> jim, hold on. he is kind of almost for gay marriage, right? that's what the white house tells us. >> that's what the critique would tell us, yeah. >> well, he's kind of going to be for gay marriage one of these days, kind of, maybe, perhaps. >> which would be why you have so much frustration among activists on this issue and other issues. if you're for it, say you're for it. and joe biden actually speaks

with so much more clarity. that's why his comments were crystal clear until they weren't crystal clear, which is right after the interview and the white house walked him back. >> i'm shocked, willie, that joe biden would go off on his own. >> tell the truth? >> well, tell the truth, exactly. >> jim, what is stopping president obama from saying just outright what many people feel that he believes, which that there ought to be gay marriage in america? why won't he say it? >> i don't know. you would have said earlier that maybe the politics are tricky or personally he hasn't come full circle. >> are they really? >> that's the thing. i don't think the politics are that tricky for him anymore. i don't think there's any mystery among gay activists or critics of the administration where they think he actually is. you would assume he would just come out and give a full-throated defense of his position on it. but again, he's been nuanced, which causes that frustration. and he often does this on issues important to the base. he isn't as crystal clear as the base would like him to be, even though conservatives think he is. >> joe, why do you think he

won't say it? >> two reasons. virginia, north carolina. they are the two swing states. the legislature in north carolina is playing around with it. i guarantee it, put it up for a statewide vote, you want to engage conservative democrats, conservative independents, conservative republicans, then put this out there. it's those two states. this is just like 2000 when al gore wouldn't speak out on gun control or on environmental issues, mark, because he needed to win west virginia. >> well, i would add ohio to that list and wisconsin and maybe iowa. the president's campaign team thinks -- they can read the data. the country is moving towards a more expansive view of gay rights. but in some of these states, the country is not all the way there on marriage. i think it's a political risk. the president's team likes the hand they hold right now. and i think it's possible before what the vice president did that the president was headed towards

coming out for gay marriage before the election. i think it's less likely now on the margins now probably. but either way, it's a political risk. it just is. >> i've got to say, i think it's shameful that the media is allowing barack obama to get away with this. >> sure. >> and they are allowing barack obama -- i think it is shameful. if a republican were trying to have it both ways on an issue like this and doing a nod and a wink. you have newspapers apologizing for barack obama. >> yeah. >> saying, well, you know, he's there, even though he's saying he is against it. he's evolving. the guy is 50 years old. he is evolving on gay marriage? he said he was for gay marriage five, six, seven years ago on a questionnaire. now he is against it? we all know he'll be for it after the polls close in north carolina and virginia. >> it's a joke, right? >> it's a joke. >> we're all supposed to believe that he somehow didn't fill out that questionnaire, that he allowed an aide to put in the positions he held on these issues. that's crazy.

and like i've said a couple of times, this evolution would confound darwin, it's taken so long. the point i want to make, though, we are seeing the politics play out in north carolina right now. there's an amendment that would basically say only marriages between a man and woman count. it would grant civil rights to gay couples, and it's going to pass overwhelmingly. so you're right, this is about those semiconservative southern states and how does the president not screw that up. >> by the way, this doesn't just happen, willie, in north carolina. this happens in california. this happens in washington state. this happens in the most liberal states in america. and that is why the president of the united states is still trying to have it both ways, and why the press allows him to have it both ways on gay marriage. >> yeah. and he's come out and said -- the administration has said we've done more familiar gay rights than any previous administration, et cetera, et cetera, but won't go all the way on gay marriage.

jim, before we go, your big take away from the politico battle ground polls. >> if romney really has a 10-point lead among independents, and now, coming off the worst stretch of his campaign at the end of that republican race, he is not in terrible shape. this remains a 50/50 race. the numbers with women are fascinating. he is definitely losing women overall by seven points. but romney is doing pretty well with white women and older women. so there are blocks of women he can pull off if it comes down to a gender war, which it could if you look at the numbers among women in polls over the last couple of months. >> romney down 18 points women under 45, but up five points women over 45. check out those polls. >> real quick, mark -- >> most important thing about that poll, it will help romney raise money. more people will show up at fundraisers because of jim's poll. >> all right. >> and check him out at politico.com. >> he can thank us. coming up in sports, the phillies cole hamels sends a

message to bryce harper putting one in the kid's back on sunday night baseball. harper got his revenge, though. highlights when we come back. plus, the new jersey tan mom immortalized by kristin wiig on "snl." "news you can't use" coming up. keep it on "morning joe." [ jennifer garner ] why can't strong sunscreen feel great?

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all right. let's do some sports. knicks and heat yesterday at the garden. knicks kind of delaying the inevitable perhaps, but they did break a 13-game playoff losing streak. so there is that. amare stoudemire back in the lineup with that left hand heavily bandaged. remember he punched the glass case of the fire extinguisher a few days ago. knicks were down by as many as 11, but that dunk puts the knicks up a point. he had a pretty good effort even with one hand. the heat would not go away. lebron ties it at 84-84. under a minute remaining. carmelo, hits a 26 footer. that puts the knicks up. at that point, they hang on to win the game. 89-87.

carmelo 41 points. one of three knicks to ever score more than 40 in a playoff game. the heat still lead the series 3-1. a little baseball now. last night we found out a little something about phillies' pitcher cole hamels' sense of hospitality. facing 19-year-old phenom bryce harper. you knew you this was coming. cole hamels decided to be the guy to drill bryce harper in the first inning. puts one right in his lower back. 90 mile an hour fastball. hamels after the game admitted he hit the teenager on purpose saying, quote, i was trying to hit him. i'm not going to deny it. welcome to the big leagues. payback. same inning. hamels tries the pickoff at first. hamels is all the way at third base and steals home. gets a great jump. he had made up his mind he was going. sprints in. steals home for the run for the nats. harper's night was great. but the phillies got the better of them. hunter pence, second home run of the game. two-run shot. nats lose 9-3.

also lost jayson werth to a broken wrist in the game. talked about it briefly at the top of the show. fenway, orioles and red sox, the longest game of the young season. tied at 6-6 in the 17th. both bullpens exhausted. so outfielder darnell mcdonald comes pitch. jones' home run breaks the tie. and then baltimore brings in their designated hitter, chris davis. that's the dh pitching the bottom of the 17th. he was 0 for 8 at the plate in the game, but makes himself the hero. two scoreless innings there. gets a few laughs from the baltimore dugout. orioles win 9-6 in 17, and davis gets the win. it was the first game since 1925 where both team has to bring in position players as pitchers. orioles sweep the three-game series with the sox and the o's have the best record in baseball. you're watching "morning joe"

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welcome back to "morning joe." live look at the white house. 43 past the hour. time now for the must-read opinion pages. we're going to start with something out of the "wall street journal" over the weekend. >> ok. >> obviously, friday's labor department report that the economy added 115,000 jobs in the month of april wasn't great news. >> right. >> and here is the article. it's called the severity of the recession slows down recovery more than anything else. and i wonder, mark, if this is what the election will come down to for obama. "the journal" looks at our

recovery since february of 2010, noting 3.7 million jobs have been created. averaging about 134,000 a month. despite friday's numbers, growth has actually been on the rise. over the past six months, job growth has been nearly 200,000 per month. in fact, the recovery looks much like that of the, quote, jobless recovery following the 2001 recession under president bush. the journal says, quote, nearly three years into the recovery, the u.s. still employs five million fewer workers than before the recession. the recent pace of the job growth simply isn't enough to climb quickly out of a hole that big. even if the u.s. adds 200,000 jobs a month going forward, a pace that hasn't maintained for more than three months at a stretch during the recovery, it would take two more years for employment to get back to its peak. by comparison, the recovery after the 2001 recession, until now the slowest on record, took a bit over three years to make

up the ground that had been lost. and this dip that we had, the economic meltdown that we had, was like four recessions in one. so we can't expect such a huge pace back. are you laughing at a "wall street journal" report? >> yeah, i am laughing. >> i think it's interesting that the -- >> the spin here. >> well, you ought to read this newspaper. >> i actually -- if i can say i read the "wall street journal" every day. >> don't you think it will come down to this, people understanding or grasping or believing -- >> you're right, that's the key question, mika. >> thank you, mark. >> but what is it voters are going to believe, is the question. >> i agree with you. because i think people are depress said. >> you're asking the youngest people on the panel? >> obviously, you don't know anything. >> the thing with the recession is that usually when you have a recession you jump back quickly with great job growth. and we didn't seen that in part because -- >> it's so big. >> we have lost hundreds of thousands of public sector jobs.

600,000 public sector jobs since obama took office. if you added those into this economy, that would do a lot of wonders. i know we talk about government employment as -- >> what are we, in france now? >> we're all socialists. but be honest about it. that is really hurting obama with the job numbers. >> let's be honest about it. if we have to depend on federal employees -- >> these are state employees. >> or state employees or any government employees. if anybody thinks that's our way out of this mess, we're in trouble. >> why, though? >> why? >> yeah. >> because we need to grow jobs. >> but don't those people with paychecks spend money? >> yeah. but those people's jobs are supported by people who work in the private sector, who pay taxes to the state government. i can't believe i'm having to explain this. >> no. oh, mr. -- >> no. >> so you're saying let's just give people government jobs to prop up the economy. >> no, no, no.

>> what's wrong with that? >> no, no, no, no. >> we need to create jobs in the free market. >> if the federal government had done more stimulus -- this is not a radical argument. if they had done more stimulus, teachers would still have jobs and have money -- >> no, no, no. >> this isn't even socialism. >> this is just -- >> i'm not accusing you of being a socialist. but this misses the huge point, and the huge point is this, mark. as i've been saying and we've been saying on this show, this is a 40 h-year problem. since the early 1970s, we have been bleeding jobs. i'm not blaming president obama. >> but mitt romney is. >> we need to elect a president who understands how to grow that economy. this is a 40-year slide. and barack obama has an argument to make. and that is, i can stop the slide. i can get america working again. i can get this economy kick started again.

and he's losing independents because independents don't believe at the end of the day that you do that by having the federal government create those jobs. >> no, i think people are just going to be impatient. >> you can pay close attention to mitt romney and president obama and not have any clue what either of them plan to do about jobs. >> but it does boil down to a stimulus versus private sector argument. >> yeah. >> it's the philosophy. >> but the president believes in the private sector and mitt romney believes in the government. >> mitt romney, you say he wants with some regulations to lower tax rates and encourage growth and economic activity with that. with obama, it's trickier, you're right, because he wants to also do all of this deficit reduction combined with stimulus, and it's a bit more complicated with him. >> look what the president has done over the past three years. passed one huge government program after another. he is running on his record, not what he's promising to do. >> so is mitt romney as governor

of massachusetts. >> that's fine. mika, i'm not wearing a mitt romney button. >> i know you're not. >> you're trying to put a mitt romney button on me. >> i didn't put it on you. i have my elizabeth warren button. why don't i get that? where did i get that? >> i think if you actually listened to anything i said on this program three hours a day, you would know that i think both parties are ill equipped to handle the challenges -- >> i'll try not to do that. >> we've got real challenges, and both parties have let us down over the past decade. >> all right. let's just look ahead to "news you can't use." still ahead, my dad will be on. >> nice. >> ok. and david ignatius will join the table. we'll be right back, though, with willie's "news you can't use."

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oh, yes. please, tell me it's time. >> it is indeed. time for "news you can't use." eli manning hosting "snl" on saturday night. did a good job upstairs here. his brother, peyton, was pretty good a couple of years ago. eli had some good moments, but the highlight of the show, the tanning mom. patricia krentcil from new jersey accused of taking her 5-year-old into a tanning bed. she denies it, said it never happened. but we still got kristin wiig as the tanning mom. [ applause ] >> i would never bring a

5-year-old into a tanning bed. tanning beds should only be used by a responsible adult, because you may not know this, septh, bt some people overtan. >> you need water? here you go. here you go. here you go. >> sorry. i got a little dried out for a second. >> ok. yeah. >> now you've said that those who criticize you are fat, ugly, and jealous. >> yes. though i can't blame them for being jealous. i am alluring in a way they'll never be. i want to show you this trick. are you ready? >> yeah. i'd love to see a trick. >> piece of bread. put it between my thighs. toast. [ laughter ] >> she also said she has the look that every woman dreams of, wile e. coyote right after something exploded in her face. the story gets so much better this morning because "the new york post," god bless "the new york post," sought out the tanning mom for a reaction.

she said to kristin wiig, she said, quote, it was well done. the whole thing was hysterical. but it gets better from here. this is a quote in "the new york post" from miss krentcil. quote, if you think about it for a second, iraq and cuba we'red involved in now, but they care that i tan. geo political is the tanning mom. >> i don't understand. maybe david ignatius can explain it. >> she's going back to 1959. cuba? >> my dad and the tanning mom. >> we'll bring in david ignatius to talk about the tanning mom. also, moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. keep it on "morning joe." for three hours a week, i'm a coach.

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who is going to run for president in 2016, you or secretary clinton? >> i think we may run as a team. i'm joking, obviously. i don't know if i'll run. hillary doesn't know if she'll run. >> there's a lot of truth in humor, mr. vice president. [ laughter ] >> it's the top of the hour. that was interesting. welcome back to "morning joe." mark halperin and mark mckinnon still with us. joining onset, columnist for "the washington post" david ignatius. >> good to be here. >> you have an interesting column.

it's prescient really. >> it is. david, we had on this morning ed luce, who has a book out talking about america's decline. i've been saying for the past three or four years that no country on the planet is better positioned to explode over the next 10, 20, 30 years than the united states of america. you're writing about it this morning in your column. and the long-term trends actually favor us. but nobody wants to talk that way today. >> i'm with you, joe. i think if we can get past the political mess that is the united states today, the fundamentals look pretty good. and i write about two of them in this column. first, we are in the midst of a natural gas boom. we figured out a new way to get natural gas out of shale. and it's going to make us the low-cost producer of this stuff in the world. and because it's the kind of segmented market, our prices will be much lower than anybody else's.

electricity here will be 1/3 to 1/2 of what it is. so that's one thing. and that's coming at us in 2020. we'll be as big an energy superpower as saudi arabia. >> can you believe that? >> good news. >> it is. >> and more to the point, this feeling we've all had as americans since 1973 and the oil embargo that we are just caught in this oil mess, our foreign policy is caught, we're caught economically, it's possible that weight will go off our shoulders by 2020. the second thing i write about is even more amazing, manufacturing is beginning to come back to the u.s. there's a big study that's been done by the boston consulting group, very prominent, that says that in key industries, you can already see executives saying when you load up all of the costs of making something in china, and add in productivity, much better in the u.s., it makes more sense to build a new plant here than there.

and they've got some numbers that make that plausible. >> is productivity better here? >> much better here. >> the productivity is great. >> when you add in what chinese wages and are the kind of advanced parts of china plus the productivity difference, the costs are about 60% of the u.s. they are less than here. but when you add in the uncertainty and risk of doing business in china, a lot of people are saying it doesn't make sense. >> and as far as productivity goes, you can say the same for bmw in greenville, carolina, and the mercedes plant in alabama. they started with suvs. and then germany looked and two or three years later, mercedes realized that alabama plant in tuscaloosa county was the most productive plant on the globe. and their most profitable. and so what did they do? they said, you know, we'll let alabama build our c class. it's happening in south carolina. it's happening in tennessee.

you've got airlines -- you've got airbus allowing their planes to be built in the southeast as well. and we've got actually an extraordinary opportunity. so you've got manufacturing. you've got natural gas. and the third prong, well, we're in a technological age. we've got eight out of the top 10 universities on the planet here. and you've got a century that is going to be dominated by whoever is the most technically advanced, most scientifically advanced, and we are still lightyears ahead of everybody. we are primed. i hate to say it because people think i'm overly optimistic for the next american century. we just can't see it right now. >> if we can solve our political problems. >> get out of our own way, right? >> what's interesting about what we're talking about is that washington had nothing to do with them in terms of making them happen. >> amen. >> these are not the product of public policy. and public policy can get in the way. bad decisions can make much more

difficult the things we are talking about. but look at the fundamentals. and i have to say, we're as well or better placed than any economic competitor that i see. and so, you know, let's take off the gloom mask. >> i left out that one line. and therefore, i declare my candidacy for president of the united states. >> well, if somebody is going to figure out, mark, a way to talk about an american future based not on, you know, kind of speeches, but on real facts, and say this is -- i want to be the candidate of this new changing basis for american prosperity. >> it is -- mika, there are so many reasons to be positive. again, the only drag on america's future right now is washington. >> it's a huge drag. i also think that it's very hard to see what you're saying through the lens of someone who's been unemployed for months and months and months, and long-term unemployment is up

higher than it's been in decades. and i think that is a persistent problem, politically as we look ahead as well. >> well, the great challenge is we are more productive. we are more technologically advanced. but what that means is you need fewer people doing those jobs. you know, you look at the arc of the american economy from 1945 forward, postwar. you had a lot of people doing a lot of jobs and a lot of big factories. i always bring up this statistic. but i think it's the most telling. if our factories were only as productive as they were in 1993, 20 million people would be employed that are not employed right now. that's the real challenge, isn't it? >> yeah. it's true that we're in an age where machines build other machines. but they do need some people to run them. they are going to have to be skilled people. in this bcg study i was citing, they talk about if this reshoring of manufacturing happen, it's 1 million manufacturing jobs, they figure.

but then there's a spinoff, because other people provide services for new people who work in the town or the factory. so the total impact is 2 million to 3 million jobs. but that isn't as mika said comfort to the guy sitting there today who's unemployed. and the message to those people is, for goodness sakes, do everything you can to get the skills you're going to need. because whatever happens in this economy, we know it's going to be more skill, with the drivers for future growth will be in these areas of higher technology. >> now the parts of the positive outlook that you lay out, you say don't necessarily have a basis in washington. here's president obama on the campaign trail in ohio over the weekend talking about the role of government. take a listen. >> look, we don't expect government to solve all our problems. it shouldn't try. not every regulation is smart. not every tax dollar is spent wisely. not every person can be helped

who refuses to help themselves. but that's not an excuse to tell the vast majority of responsible hard working americans you're on your own. >> hmm. romney by the way responded. his campaign saying, quote, while president obama all but ignored his record over 3 1/2 years in office, the american people won't. so it comes down to potshots at each other in the race. >> well, mark, i just -- i don't know that that argument is going to sell. barack obama trying to take on the bill clinton, the era of big government is over mantel. because he's got to run on a record, and of course he inherited a lot of this from bush. but the bank bailouts, the detroit bailouts. the stimulus bill, the largest spending bill in the history of the country. he supported cap and trade. then he moved on. and he started fighting for a year and a half for his health care plan. nationalized health care plan.

he is the candidate, not of big government, of massive government by american standards. and doesn't it come down to, as mark said before, whether we believe the government is going to get us out of this mess or whether we believe that --. we >> well, a lot of that is with the government's decision on health care. the health care decision i think will frame that debate. and governor romney is going to have to try to be a better spokesman for the other point of view than i think he's been so far to win that. >> but, i mean, regardless of what the supreme court does, the die is cast. the american people, it's not like they have been on vacation for the past three years. i think he has defined himself as a big government democrat, hasn't he? >> for a lot of independents. but if it's a referendum on a big government democrat, i don't think he can win the election. but that's not what he's going to argue. >> did he save the economy? was he able to stop the dike? >> and is mitt romney an acceptable choice. >> and aside from health care,

which i just can't find an argument for, all the other things you could argue worked. especially the auto bailout. >> well, i would disagree on a lot of those things. >> ok. >> david, there is a real paradigm shift going on in the energy sector. which can be profound and half energy costs in this country and really have the intended effect you're talking about. what about regulations in policies relative to that kind of development? >> you could argue that's one thing that could really slow up the exploitation of the newly available energy resources. there's lots of new regulations. i'd be surprised if that happened, to be honest. i find as i talk to people in business, whether liberal or conservative, they understand that this is a game changer for our economy. we're going to have much lower energy costs relative to our competitors. we'll add on some of that are regulation that's probably appropriate. you don't want to have no regulation. but i think people understand now that you could really slow the forward momentum by doing that.

>> one of the other great challenges for this country as we move forward over the next decade and over the past decade is that we've been an occupying power in two different countries. we also have the threat of iran coming up. but what's your reaction to the president's plan in afghanistan, keeps us engaged until 2024, but claims the combat troops are coming out. >> strategic partnership. >> in 2014 which i don't believe for a second. >> well, it's an unlikely partnership. afghanistan is still very, very backward. i disagree with you, joe. i think that we cannot get out of there in a hurry. that it's important to leave behind a residual force that can protect -- >> through 2024? >> the idea is a relatively small counterterrorism force based there in that strategic little part of the world next to a very dangerous pakistan. if it has support from afghanistan, and the neighbors, i think it's a good thing in terms of our security. >> do you think it's going to be

small in 2015, 2016? >> the generals i hear are talking about are something, you know, 15,000 to 20,000, probably shrinking over time. and we'll have to see if that force can be effective without a broader support network. effective in terms of getting intelligence. but i think the president has finally got a policy that he feels comfortable with. i think that's why he finally looked on this trip like a real commander in chief. when you saw him in shirtsleeves talking with the trips in bagram, he looked like a commander. why? because this is finally the policy that he wanted. it's fairly small in size. it's focused on the counterterrorism al qaeda threat, which he has really got the focus on that. so i think that this is something he can sell to the country. and sell to the military. and that's the basic formula he needs. >> so what is -- how great of a threat is a nuclear iran? to this country to our interests across the globe?

>> president obama has said that a nuclear iran -- iran with nuclear weapons is not acceptable to the united states. >> is that our policy now? >> our policy, he has said specifically, we will prevent iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon by military force if all other means of stopping it fails. so he has really drawn that line firmly. and i think the reason that he said that is in part because the israelis are so concerned about the effects on them, but also this idea of a middle east that's just spinning into a new nuclear future, where iran has a bomb and saudi arabia has a bomb, and turkey's got to get a bomb, and then egypt's got to get a bomb. i mean, that's a really unstable recipe. and so he has said, we're going to stop that before we enter into that period. there are indications that the iranians get the message and are prepared to negotiate. the next session is in baghdad, of all places, may 23.

and the signals i get both from the iranians and from the white house is that it looks like there's some progress. >> two years ago, i would guess, one to two years ago, it seemed like most foreign policy thinkers that came on this set suggested that a nuclear iran was going to happen, because the iranians pushed bush around for four years. i've got a "wall street journal" editorial that i've kept and it's yellowing right now talking about all the lines in the sand that george w. bush drew, and all the times that iran stepped over it. they have done it with barack obama. what makes this time different? >> obama did one really smart thing in terms of his strategy. when he came in, he knew that iran was the biggest issue, the toughest issue. and that he would need help. he went to the russians and he said, let's talk. let's have a reset in our relations. let's make some changes in our missile defense plans and the things that bother you the most. and the russians became supporters in the u.n. so he pass a series of u.n.

sanctions, resolutions, against israe iran. with that foundation, the u.s. kept adding with its european countries, japan, other friendly countries more and more sanctions on top of that to the point it's really squeezing now in tehran. the most telling thing for me was the day after the first negotiating meeting in istanbul where there were signs of progress. the stock market in tehran shot up. why? because iranians think there may be a deal that's going to take these sanctions, which are really beginning to squeeze iran, off. and so people were buying stocks. it's that simple. >> fascinating. our guest last week, mika, from "the new yorker qu" that was talking about iran, said she was picked up off the street not because she was talking about the military or nuclear issues, but they were upset she might be writing a story on the economy. >> yes, very sensitive.

>> which means it's starting to draw blood. >> well, they are really nervous about where it will be after july 1 if they don't make a deal. >> mark? >> and, you know, foreign policy is an issue in this election. this is one area where if there is progress in the next round of negotiations, the president can go to the country and say i took one of the toughest problems i inherited that the previous administration hadn't dealt with, and i got this done, and the israelis would welcome that. >> the president has evolved so much on iran. mark, a lot of us listened to his comments in 2008 and rolled our eyes at just how naive this president was towards iran. he wasn't attacking george w. bush. he was attacking hillary clinton, saying, you know, we're going to have an open door policy, and we're going to talk one-on-one. and then in 2009, he still seemed slow to act when the iranians were shooting people in the street. but i think he's -- i think he has -- he comes to the table now

understanding that this is a brutish regime, and they have to be dealt with in the toughest way possible. >> i think he has really matured and evolved. and i think the last place that the republicans want to be based now is on foreign policy. >> could you tell the republicans that? could you tell them to stop? >> they are just diving in. >> obviously, i disagree with their positions on -- the president's positions on afghanistan. and a couple of others. but you don't win an argument suggesting that barack obama is a peacenik. >> fascinating. >> well, it's idiotic and shortsighted. >> well, that too. >> because they are launching drone attacks in every country this side of canada. i mean, the -- >> montreal is next. >> montreal is next. i heard they speak french, and there's a socialist revolution going on. but, david, this weekend, more success against a top al qaeda member in yemen. a man responsible for the uss cole attack. >> president obama said this as

he was running for election. and, you know, i'm going to take u.s. power after these people, wherever they are, and he's done it. he has been -- whatever you think of him as commander in chief, as a covert commander in chief, he's been very tough. and what mark said, that republicans just are not going to run against him on these foreign policy issues, is amazing. who would have thought that a democrat would have the high ground on these issues? >> well, and there's a politico poll just in, obama leads romney 51-38 on foreign policy. >> amazing. >> yeah. >> and romney doesn't help himself by picking a new topic every day. >> going after jimmy carter. >> well, to chase the president on russia one day. chase the president on china the next day. >> tehran. >> chase him on iran the next day. he needs to look more presidential. somebody in that campaign needs to say to him, it's all right to agree with the president on foreign policy because that actually makes you look more presidential. >> just take a powder.

>> secretary of state clinton on china on this question of chen, it would have been easy for him to say, you know -- >> by the way, in a middle of a diplomatic crisis, by the way. >> just say traditionally foreign policy stops at the water's edge, and i'm just not going to second guess the secretary of state while she is in the middle of negotiations. he would have looked better. >> yes. and by the way, politically, that would have helped him pick up some votes among the independents that he is searching for. independents want to see cooperation in washington. >> almost every republican i talk to now who has concerns about romney's chances say it's because they don't think he stands for anything. they don't think he projects that he stands for anything. doing this cherry-picking on foreign policy only exacerbates the problem. a lot of people see him flitting from issue to issue. >> do you know who is good at this? bill clinton. there were times in the campaign where bill clinton would say in

'92, i agree with the president. i think he's doing the right thing. you know, i think the politics remain at the water's edge. and everybody stops and goes, wow, that's a pretty radical message. >> it just added to his stature. >> and then you kill him on the economy. >> but there are issues on foreign policy where he did disagree, like bosnia and haiti, and he went after him. >> david, thank you so much. >> david, important column to read. pick up "the washington post." up next, we'll bring in the moderator of "meet the press" david gregory. plus, the democratic senator ron wyden on his bipartisan approach to saving medicare. also, chuck todd will join the conversation. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. good so tee you. high schools in six states enrolled in the national math and science initiative...

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>> i am vice president of the united states of america. the president sets the policy. i am absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying women, and heterosexual -- men and women marrying each other are entitled to all the civil rights, all the civil liberties, and quite frankly, i don't see much of a distinction beyond that. >> welcome back to "morning joe" at 23 past the hour. joining us from atlanta, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. and here with us onset in washington, we have the democratic senator from oregon, senator dan widen. and host of "the daily rundown" chuck todd. >> what do you call that? >> pinhuelo. >> he is just making up stuff now. nobody's heard of that. david gregory, it's very

exciting. joe biden makes news. the administration, the president, now supports gay marriage. how exciting, right? >> yeah. they spent a lot of time afterward trying to walk that back. first saying that the vice president was speaking for himself, and then saying that he was totally consistent with president obama. this was newsworthy. why? because this administration appears poised to change its position on same-sex marriage. the president has said before that his views were evolving. the vice president and the president both opposed to same-sex marriage when they campaigned in 2008. i don't know how you interpret what the vice president said yesterday other than the fact that he has evolved. that his position has changed. there is this expectation as you know, joe, that if the president gets a second term, he's going to change his position on gay marriage. and whether they think that's something that can be done before hand, whether they just want to leave it to the states, is not entirely clear. but this is further than vice

president biden has ever gone on this issue. >> chuck todd, a guy at 50 years old, he is still, quote evolving. mitt romney and barack obama evolving at a late stage in their life. >> there's a story very recently, apparently joe biden went to a fundraiser at the home of a gay couple, with little kids. and i'm told it moved him in a way that it was sort of more real world. >> is that the first time he's ever been around a gay couple? >> no. but seeing the whole family -- >> oh, my gosh. they did not eat the child's head! maybe this is ok. >> but in a family setting. >> look, i'm just telling you my understanding of part of the evolution. >> this is the story they've cooked up to explain the evolution? >> you know, with joe biden, there's something about it that rings more true to me than -- >> you think joe is lying? >> i just hear the story and i wonder if joe biden and the white house thought that like gay couples ate babies. >> no. >> what's so shocking about, oh, i saw a gay couple and they were

respectful to their child. well, who hasn't seen that? >> you tend to -- >> come on. they are cooking up a story to try to figure out -- >> no, i don't think -- i think this is -- >> how to get them to evolve. >> this is biden being biden. what he is. >> this is insanity. why is the press letting them get away with this? why is the press getting barack obama get away with this? i'm not for gay marriage but i'm kind of for it but i'm not. >> they are so sensitive to biden doing this because, number one, gay money in this election has replaced wall street money. it has been the gay community that has put in money in a way to this president that is a very, very important part of the fundraising campaign. the second part of this, they are sense itive to the fact tha here they have done everything to marriage saying they don't want to take away anybody's rights that already have them, but they don't like the idea that it brings attention to what you were just saying.

what biden has done has brought attention to the fact that the president is not, quote, there yet. >> when will the president be as great as dick cheney? it's the cheney test. dick cheney. >> it's a good question. why, i don't understand. >> dick cheney actually said in a vice presidential debate five years, six, seven years ago -- >> he's been asked at multiple press conferences. what i'm told is that he's not going to ever announce his change in his position at a press conference. that he'll do it in a more appropriate venue. >> and david gregory is not going to do this because of virginia and north carolina. >> look, there's a lot of supporters of the president who think this is too cute by half. who see this evolution -- and i'm a little closer to you on this, joe, i agree with chuck. i do not think that the vice president was prepared to change administration policy on this. even though he may speak his mind more than the campaign would like. i don't think that that's what this was. but i think when you have them so close and frankly wanting to

change their position. you know, you have the hud secretary shean donovan who is on record supporting same-sex marriage. i think they are moving this closer to the edge, and things like this are going to happen. they'll find opportunities where they are much more forward leaning and it's very difficult to walk back. i don't know how they choreograph this. but the expectation is if they get into a second term, that's when it will be done. and then a lot of supporters are looking at that is much more soon. >> i think they do it now. i think this forces the conversation. i think before the convention. >> as forward leaning as dick cheney? >> oh, good gracious. >> causing problems once again on sunday's "meet the press." great show. ron wyden, let's change topics. >> young people ask me about gay marriage, i just don't. i want to talk about jobs.

>> you have had the courage to do something on medicare that no one else has had the ducourage do, is put it out front and center and admit the truth, which is medicare as a matter of math is going to go bankrupt unless washington gets serious. and unless democrats and republicans put aside petty differences and start working together. >> joe, there are a lot of members of congress that are trying to be bipartisan. frankly, doesn't get a lot of press. i want to say i just appreciate the fact that you all want to once in a while talk about cooperation rather than conflict. my background is working with seniors. that's what i did. i run a legal aid program. i was a public member of the nursing home board. and this is not about ideology. this is about what's really happening out there. you talk to seniors, they can't get a doctor to see them. they make half a dozen calls if they have high blood pressure, a heart condition. nobody will see them. so what the congress has got to do now is sort of put aside the

fighting and say, this isn't about ideology. we've got to fix a problem. and i'm going to work with anybody who will be part of that. >> and you've caught a lot of grief in your own democratic caucus for working with the republicans, haven't you? >> there's been some sniping, particularly among staff people. but you talk to somebody like chuck schumer. chuck schumer said ron wyden is an important part of our caucus and making important points. this just can't afford to wait. there's never an ideal time to bring up an issue like this. people say that the compromise is a bad thing. i've heard chuck talk about polling. and that kind of thing. the fact is, what the country is really unhappy about is when politics comes before doing what is right. and that's what we've got to do. >> it's so right and it so reflects the no labels community and why we've seen such a push behind -- americans want this action, and god bless you for doing what everybody else -- what most americans think is so obvious. we know what the problems are. we know what we have to do.

we know we haven't changed these entitlements in 15 years, and yet life expectancy is 15 years greater. it's obvious. we can means test. we can adjust the age requirements. so i appreciate what you're doing. >> senator, can you reform medicare without death panels? and i say this i'm being sarcastic but panels that basically say, guess what, at 85 years old, there are certain tests you can't get anymore. medicare might not cover certain things, which of course got turned into death panels and turned politically toxic. can you reform medicare without it? >> of course you can. people are already looking at end of life alternatives, particularly hospice. we have a new program. 75% of medicare goes for chronic disease. heart, stroke, and diabetes. if you take care of those people at home, according to the v.a., we'll save about 30% on their care. so the fact is, there are ways in which to contain these costs. and i voted against an early ryan proposal. i thought it was a voucher

program. i'm a progressive democrat. but if somebody is going to say we're going to make sure that traditional medicare keeps its purchasing power, we're not going to have a voucher, which is really coupon care, but we're going to try approaches that give private alternatives and traditional medicare that keeps up with health care costs i think we can turn this around. >> chuck, i remember the president in 2010, end of 2010, was doing obviously very poorly in the polls. and then he struck that deal that extended the bush tax cuts and also extended unemployment. his numbers went up not because of the specifics of that deal, but just because he was cooperating. with the republicans and republicans were cooperating with him. we were talking last segment about how it would help mitt romney if just one time he said, i think the president is right on that foreign policy issue. >> but you just put your finger on the reason why you're not seeing any more of it. >> why? >> the president. and the republicans, it doesn't help them, and that's the political calculation. >> doesn't it help mitt romney if once in a while he says, you

know, the president is right on this china issue. and i'm going to just sit back and let the commander in chief be the commander in chief. >> why do they always have to be at odds? >> aren't you finding that independents are hungering for the two parties to work together? >> absolutely. >> you see the negatives for the two parties going down. republicans are in worse shape than the democrats but it's not like the democrats are going gang busters. >> you mean the negatives are going up? >> the favoritable ratings are going up. >> both parties. they recognize they want action. can you tell us the status of this and what the outlook is? >> i'm encouraged. more and more people are coming up to me. senior citizens know we have to do this. medicare is the ballgame in terms of the federal budget. i think one of the big challenges and something you can help with is that all of these members of congress come to washington, and they sign these pledges. they have signed a pledge about the budget, about health care about, taxes. i don't sign these pledges, number one. >> good for you.

>> but if there was a pledge that i was going to sign, i'd sign a pledge to put problem solving ing and the country's interests before any of these special interests and caucus drills. and ask people when they come on your show if they'd do that. >> oregon has always been seen as an independent state. do you think a third party candidate could win out in oregon? >> well, first of all, i think people who have independent ideas can win under any kind of circumstance. but i went through a campaign in 2010, and i told the people of oregon that i was going to approach problem solving and putting the country's interests first. i came up with a democratic chair and a republican chair in each of oregon's 36 counties. and i said, if you send me back to washington, that's what i'm going to focus on. and frankly, it works. one of the first fights we won at the beginning of this congress, senator jerry moran, a republican from kansas and i, teamed up and we won this fight to make sure that the internet

stayed free and open. you wouldn't turn websites into web cops. not only does it work sub constant tiffly -- sub tan stan tiffly, it works. >> we have luger about to go down. they say by double digits. i'll be surprised if it's single digits. >> wow. >> and i think europe, there's a lot of interesting things to learn from europe. lesson one, it's always the economy. stupid, right? even whatever language you speak. >> how do you say stupid in french? >> stupide. >> and second is this issue of austerity, right? it's sort of -- i think both parties ought to look at what happened over there, and they are probably a little bit nervous for different reasons. >> all right. chuck todd, thank you as well. >> thank you, senator, and thank you for your work. greatly appreciated. >> pledge against pledges.

great idea. still ahead, arne duncan will join us. ahead of a sthaet plan to consider the issue of student loans. "morning joe" is back in a moment. [ wind howling ]

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coming up, live from msnbc's washington bureau, we'll bring in dr. zbigniew brzezinski. hi, dad. and fred kempe. >> you have to say hi first. >> keep it right here on "morning joe." >> hi, fred. how are you?

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joining us now, dr. zbigniew brzezinski, author of "strategic vision: america and the crisis of global power." bestseller. dad, welcome back. also with us, the president of

the atlanta council and columnist for reuters fred kempe. great to be here with you. and we are honored to be a part of your event tonight. >> as always. dr. bryzgalov, headline in the "wall street journal," "the financial times" also talking about a socialist winning in france. and the ruling coalition being blown apart in greece. what's your reaction? >> i think that's kind of predictable, isn't it? if you have in a democracy an economic policy based on the principle of austerity, the first question arises, whose life is going to be much more austere? and unless it can be answered firmly and clearly and credibly everybody's, then those whose lives become much more tangibly austere are going to be angry. and you can have austerity in an authoritarian system. you can have austerity in a

traditional maybe royal system, like in great britain. but if you have a democracy that is set by social prominence, where you have visible but also hidden wealth at the top, you have to have publicly credible evidence that austerity is a burden shared in common by all. >> so what does this mean moving forward for france? for greece, with the debt explosion continuing? >> well, two different things. greece and france are not in the same position economically. i think the case of greece, the problems are so severe that there has to be really a dramatic sense of urgency in coping with it. what we are now going to see i think is political mess, because the two parties that have traditionally dominated greek politics have suffered badly, and it's not clear to me how the successors will operate. and can they really resolve the problem within the framework of

the eu or will there be social pressures. maybe suicidal in character to leave the eu. >> right. >> in the case of france, france is a wealthy society basically. it is a wealthy society that has become increasingly disenchanted with sarkozy personally, and that's a major factor. >> that's a major factor. it's not just against the austerity, fred. it's also sarkozy seen as being a bit too brusque. >> precisely. >> and it's also a change of tone in leadership for france. >> it is. i just want to say one thing. dr. bryzgalov has been my inspiration. he made me a cold warrior at an early age, professor at colombia where i studied -- >> i hope mika is listening. >> where i wrote the textbook that turned me into someone interested in eastern europe. i'm hoping to disagree with him on something fundamentally on the show. here is something important. >> i can give you an opening. >> no, no, that's good.

>> a european leader said to me a couple of weeks ago, we know what to do. we just don't know how to do it and get re-elected. and every incumbent since the eurozone crisis has been defeated at the polls, and it's because of what dr. bryzgalov is say being austerity. i actually think this is a good outcome, because it will force all of europe more to austerity plus growth. the real trick will be what kind of growth will germany and angela merkel accept. merkel is already moving more towards a growth posture. she sees she needs to get re-elected as well next year. she doesn't want to go down with everyone else. >> let's talk about greece and france. >> greece was a more important election. >> greece doesn't have as much room to have growth policies than, say, france. >> the surprise over the weekend, the surprise yesterday, was the greek election. where you have the left and their coalition partner in the center right getting to a position where they have such a narrow majority that they will not be able to withstand the

public pressure for this new bailout package and get it through. if they can't get it through, have you two options. either you have to leave the euro, and nobody knows how that would work and what sort of knock on effects it will have, or you have to default within the euro which you now can do under something called the now european stability mechanism. this is all new terrain. when we had our financial crisis, we had a financial crisis within a financial system. they are having a crisis without a system existing and they are trying to build the system while they are having the crisis. and i think that's really the bigger problem. >> so, dad, what you were saying before, though, isn't it when you were describing how austerity could work and why it potentially may not be politically, aren't you just talking about fairness? and doesn't that translate to the debate we're having here at home? >> well, look, democracy is based on the notion of fairness, not mechanical equality but fairness, that everyone has a fair chance. i agree with everything that

fred said except one point. i think the french elections are actually more important than the greek elections because the greek elections will determine the fate of greece. they will not determine the fate of europe. the french elections will affect the fate of europe. and i think that the effect of the french elections is going to be some adjustment along the lines that you described, between france and germany. to find a formula -- and i don't have one, and so obviously it's very easy for me to say it. but nonetheless, it will be found because it has to be found. a formula in which some degree of austerity is at the same time wedded to a public policy designed to growth, so that the burden of austerity, the suffering that it projects and creates, is not going to be shared by the most people in the country. >> we're talking about austerity and suffering here. but at the same time, fred, the french results look suicidal. i understand, again, a lot of this is personality. >> how are they suicidal? >> they look suicidal when you

have a guy running for the president of france who says he wants to lower the retirement age from 65 to 60, and move from a 40-hour to a four-day workweek and spend money every analyst across europe knows he can't afford to spend. if we're talking at the end of the day, after the rough edges are smoothed out, austerity plus growth measures, then that's interesting. but i don't know that the french people, because i guess they have parliamentary elections in four or five months, i don't think they follow this message. because this message is not a realistic message. >> it's absolutely not a realistic message. and i think most people who get elected in democratic countries do send unrealistic messages and then they get elected. >> precisely. >> the markets will be the disciplining mechanism. if he actually delivers on what he's promised, the markets will drive up his debt costs so high

that he won't actually be able to carry out what he wants to carry out. he in the next four weeks will make a trip probably next may 15th to berlin, where he has to sort things out with merkel. >> who supported sarkozy. >> she support eed sarkozy, but she doesn't really like sarkozy. >> well she's a pastor's daughter, he's this kbechous person. but there's a chance with holon. merkel needs to get re-elected. she's going to compromise. then he comes to the white house. the white house very badly wants an early meeting with him, because they don't know him that well and they're nervous. they've got a problem with the nato summit, because he says he will pull out troops -- >> well, sarkozy has announced that, actually, he's endorsing it. >> but it really could blow up

what president obama wants to achieve at the nato summit. >> they're likely to have a meeting, the two of them, first, before chicago. try to establish common share. >> how quickly can he try to affect change in france? >> first of all, he's going to be negotiating with merkel. i think there's going to be some formula. secondly, my sense is that they will all agree, i mean, in the top echelons of the eu, that they have to move forward towards greater political unity. applause political unity is essential. part of the problem we have today is that they've created a monetary and fiscal structure which has no coordinating center, no political cohesion. and they have now painfully discovered the cost of that. i think under the present circumstances, europe can either go back to more disunity or really take the steps towards greater political coordination, which would have greater economic influence from the top down. and i think that's a solution for europe, eventually. >> dr. brzezinski, let's let

poland take a victory lap right now. isn't it something, go back to 1989, yeah, 1990, 1991 and fast forward 20 years. is it not remarkable how poland's economy has grown and how they, in many ways, are more stable than some of their neighbors to the west, economically? >> that's right. and it's recognized increasingly on the international scale. look at the visit of prime minister wen in china a week ago. >> it's no longer north/west, it's east/south. and poland is in the north and these are the country that are globalizing and doing the right things fiscally. the south is one with all the problems. the problem is france is going to the south, germany's more to the north. there's a split. >> dad, the book is "strategic vision: american and the crisis of global poverty." >> you know, i've read it four

times. i'm going to read it again this week. >> you've read it four times? have you memorized it. >> it's stupendous. >> fred kemp, thank you as well. we'll see you tonight on stage. who else is going to be there? >> paul pollman, unilever, your father will be there with your mother sitting -- >> oh, my lord, my mom's coming? >> with three former heads of state. >> is my mom really coming? >> the great violinist will be introduced by her husband. >> you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. i get my cancer medications through the mail. now washington, they're looking at shutting down post offices coast to coast. closing plants is not the answer. they want to cut 100,000 jobs. it's gonna cost us more, and the service is gonna be less. we could lose clientele because of increased mailing times. the ripple effect is going to be devastating. congress created the problem.

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. welcome back to "morning joe." it's 5:00 a.m. on the west coast as you take a live look at washington, d.c. back with us on set, we have mark halperin, sam stein, mark mckinnon, disturbing, and willie geist in new york. >> you know what's great, willie? >> france. >> and you and i -- >> france? >> that in the midst of austerity, you decide, you know how we get out of this mess, out of this hole? we elect a guy that promises to lower the retirement age to 60 and is fighting for what you and i actually live every week, a 35-hour workweek. spending more money than ever before. it's a stunning turn. not only in france, but also in

greece. europe is just not facing up to the realities of this debt crisis. >> yeah, and hollande also as proposed a 75% top end tax rate on the highest earners inside france. so this is obviously a huge response to what's been happening. it causes a little strife now with germany. what happens between hollande and germany. i don't think he's going as far as he campaigned, but it's making things difficult across germany, for sure. >> it's certainly going to make things very complicated for france. and i think you're going to see a lot of money run away from the country and also, greece, very depressing they're the top two parties. the coalition that put together the austerity deal that was allowing greece to stay above water lost. >> let's lay it all out for people. a political backlash against fiscal austerity is sweeping across europe this morning. in france, francois hollande

defeated president nicolas sarkozy yesterday. hollande's victory for the socialist movement, the first in almost 20 years, signals a shift to the left as france deals with its struggling economy. it marks a clear rejection of president sarkozy's attempts to control the the debt crisis through austerity measures. hollande insists there are other ways to trigger economic growth. the president-elect's plan promises more government spending, as willie mentioned, and more government jobs. he also promised to increase taxes on wealthy individuals and big corporations. sarkozy thanked his supporters on sunday, saying he tried his best to win re-election, despite widespread anger at his handling of the economy. the french president lost a second term by 4% of the vote. and moving on to greece now,

voters are also fed up with austerity measures there -- >> because the greek have been so fiscally responsible for so long now, i can understand. it has been a rough 3 1/2 weeks. >> they've been far from realistic. >> it's been a rough 3 1/2 weeks. come on! >> in yesterday's parliamentary elections, the majority of greeks came out against the country's two major parties, rejecting support of the international bailout. instead, voters are backing smaller fringe groups that oppose austerity. the future of the country's $171 billion rescue package is now in doubt. not only could greece go bankrupt, but it could also put the country's european allies on the hook for billions of dollars. >> with us now, we've got chief u.s. columnist for the "financial times," ed luce. ed's new book is entitled "time to start thinking: america in the edge of dissent." ed, we americans love to joke about french socialists and compare our latest democratic

opponent to those socialists other in france. but the fact of the matter is, this is the only the second time that a socialist has been elected president since the founding of the republic in 1698. this is a pretty extraordinary moment for that country, isn't it? >> it is. it is the first time for a quarter of a century. it's not just a big event for france, of course, but this is a big event for europe. because you are now beginning to see more and more governments, most spectacularly yesterday with france, moving to not a declared anti-german camp, but a very explicit anti-austerity camp, which in effect is a position within europe rising to angela merkel. and i think the most interesting thing about this is that her klkcan kell's going to have to.

she did endorse sarkozy. this is very unusual. she even offered to campaign for him. which would have broken all precedent, to have a german leader campaigning for one side in a french election. sarkozy then clearly understood it wouldn't help his chances. >> if i could correct you, hitler did it for the vicci government. maybe that was a concern for sarkozy. but let's talk, though, about how much of this was a repudiation of merkel's vision of europe? and how much of it was a repudiation of sarkozy's brusque style? >> i think the latter can't be discounted. and we have to forget, this wasn't an election just about fiscal plans, just about austerity. sarkozy had some pretty radical, some pretty right-wing proposals to restrict immigration, to de-integrate, if you would like, to disintegrate, european free movement of peoples, the shannon agreement, in an attempt to try

to get some of the france national voters. he didn't get enough. but there's a clear repudiation of that as well. sarkozy was a very mercurial president and i think the french got tired of this. and the fact that hollande described himself as monsieur normal and really sold his boringness and that the french like this boringness right now, that shouldn't be discounted either. it's not just about the euro. >> all right. >> sam, quick question. obviously, there's tremendous ripple effects to all of this, but one of them could be felt in england, which is in a double-dip recession right now. and i was wondering, has the cameron government looked at this and decided it's time to stay the course in light of its economic plan? >> they are doubling down with a double-dip recession. cameron is actually preparing to reinforce his support or

underline his support for the spending can cuts that have yet really t-- the full impact is really yet to begin in britain. we're still in the early stages. yet in a spectacular piece of maladroit diplomacy, cameron basically snubbed hollande when hollande came over to london the other day to campaign amongst french expatriates working there. cameron refused to see him. so he and merkel, he and merkel have very much taken one side in the french debate. and it will be interesting to see how hollande responds to them. >> ed luce, stand by. we'll get to politics now and look at some of the battleground states here and how they're doing. a new "usa today" gallop poll is breaking down the race in the nation's top ten swing states. it's the first look at those battlegrounds since mitt romney emerged as the republican's presumptive nominee. right now the head-to-head

matchup is a statistical tie. the president leads romney by two points, well within the margin of error. for the first time since last fall, democrats are more likely than republicans to say they are extremely or very enthusiastic about voting. the 11-point advantage is a dramatic swing from the end of last year, when republicans held a 14-point edge. 52% believe the president would do a good job on the economy over the next few years. 60% say that of mitt romney. a new politico/george washington university poll takes a look at the 2012 election and also finds six months away from election day, mitt romney and president obama are in a dead heat, with romney opening up a ten-point lead among independent voters. but when it comes to favorability, 70% say they approve of president obama opposed only 56% who approve of mitt romney. the poll also found support for congress at just 13%. >> and who are those 13%? >> who are they?

>> mark halperin -- >> do members of congress vote in that poll? >> this is split down the middle, but, obviously, both camps are furiously fighting for those independent voters who swung against mitt romney during the battle between rick santorum and romney. now they're swinging back, it seems, to the gop. but that's the battle, isn't it? >> it is the battle, because the consolidation on the base is almost total. romney now has as much of the republican party as the president has of the democratic party. and these national polls are funny now, if you don't just do battleground states. the president's numbers in southern states are so low and governor romney's numbers in the blue states are so low, it kind of does cancel things out, but it does delawaistort things. but there are a lot of battleground states that are going to decide this. they're already seeing lots of ads. david axelrod said yesterday, this thing will basically be

decided before labor day because the opinion of those people will be set. >> he thinks it's going to be decided? >> he said opinions are going to be pretty firmly set by labor day. >> i strongly disagree. >> the thing that surprises me here, the lack of enthusiasm on the republican side. normally you thinking this sort of dynamic would be a lot of republican enthusiasm. do you see that as a malaise from the primaries? how do you see that? >> there are still a lot of question marks about the candidate. governor romney is a shocking person to have emerged in today's republican party as a nominee. >> but the lack of enthusiasm is on the moderate side of the independents, not on the conservatives. >> but isn't that great news for governor romney? here he is. that same poll yesterday had president obama on plus 27% on likability. romney is only 2%. >> that really is a surprise. >> if he closes that gap, combine that with the news that might emerge from europe, he's sitting in a very enviable -- >> but the fact that it's close and romney has just come out of the primary, means it has

nowhere to go but up. >> that's what these nominating process is really about, you go to the convention and it's a three-day commercial. i remember my dad saying at then end of the democratic convention, i really like this dukakis guy. and i said, yeah, but who do you like more, your grandkids? if you want to see your grandkids, i don't want to hear that from you again. >> so if you're romney's people, do you do a bunch of positive ads to make his name go up or go after obama? >> i think right now you keep doing what you're doing. i think the obama people are pounding romney. >> what they're going to the try to do now is keep romney from growing by defining him on negative terms. the president started that and i think you're going to see a lot more ads. >> with a lot more upside potential to grow than the romney. >> mark mckinnon, you write this. young voters are abandoning obama, but not running to romney. and in part you say, young millennials today are less politically engaged and less

enthusiastic. just 46% are registered to vote compared to 73% four years ago. president obama is in trouble. just 50% of college-age youth approve of his performance overall. that's five point less than their 25 to 29-year-old peers. while that general measure is trending upward from a low point in december 2011, just 39% of the younger millennials approve of his handling of the economy. and only 43% think obama will will win re-election, with 29% thinking he will lose and 28% unsure. >> boy, young voters are up for grabs. >> this is interesting. really great work done by the institute of politics up at harvard. it's among young voters who were such a key constituency. t the enthusiasm level has dropped with only 41% supporting president obama. now, there's not much enthusiasm for romney, but if the goal is to excite your base and consolidate your base and it's

really going to be an enthusiasm election among the base, this is a problem area for the president. >> you know, it's -- you look at this economy and who this economy is hurting the most, and just look at long-term trends. the bull's-eye is really on the backs of the young voters. we talk about social security and medicare an awful lot. that burden falls on the young, who know they're not going to get social security or medicare as long as the old guys in washington keep acting as irresponsibly as they are. we've got a $16 trillion, soon to be $17 trillion debt. the young voters of america know that's all going to fall on them. no one's being responsible about that. sam, i hate to keep pounding this irresponsible drum, but young voters, and i define young ass ianyone younger than me, so that's a wide swath. >> that's almost everybody, joe.

>> but the young voters are becoming more independent. >> 2008 was the exception to the rule, obviously, because there was such unbelievable excitement around this candidacy that represented something that was totally different. it was post partisan candidate, enough of this bickering, let's move on. but what's happened over the the past three years, obama was really dragged into that mess he said he was going to rise above and i think that's disillusioned a lot of people. i get your points about the debt and the job market. ting the job market matters more for young voters than the debt. but i think a lot of the problem is, they look at washington and they basically see it as this totally out of touch, totally unworkable entity that they want to give up on. and that's the problem, is they're just not engaged. there's a good reason too. >> what's surprising to me is that this group is more right of center than you might imagine. four in ten believe cutting taxes is the key to growth. only 19% say government spending. and on the top ten issues, you're right, creating jobs is one, but then it's reducing the deficit, lowering the debt burden, energy independence,

health care, on down, and climate change is last. >> and ed luce, this is really -- this is the political reality not just for the united states, but even more dramatically for europe. there's a ticking debt bomb that the next generation of voters have to be concerned about. >> yeah. i mean, i think we focus quite rightly on the difference between america and europe. the american dollar is not under threat of breaking up. the american union is not under the specter of disintegration. but the trends that the two great developed regions of the world have in economy are the more enduring and the more interesting ones. and things are looking bleak on both sides of the atlantic. it's a horrible thing to say, but to be young nowadays in europe or america is to have a deep sense of foreboding from the word go. >> up next, andrea mitchell and education secretary arne duncan. we'll ask him about the politics

surrounding student loan debt and what's planned for teacher appreciation week. also, the new "fortune" 500 list is out this morning. we'll get farrishand look at the rankings of the largest corporations in the west. plus, headlines from the west coast papers this morning. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> no weather to talk about on the west coast today, mika. beautiful conditions continue from the weekend. all the trouble will be heading to the east coast as we go throughout this week. this morning, we're watching a lot of thunderstorms. toledo's got nailed all morning long. watch out lafayette, indiana. a lot of lightning with those storms. later on today, severe weather, all the way from the deep south, memphis to little rock, jacksonville, mississippi, back up to louisville. from columbus to cleveland back to pittsburgh, watch out for a chance of strong storms this afternoon. not too many tornadoes. mostly damaging wind and large hail. as far as the forecast goes today, the west coast, you are beautiful. grab the sunglasses as you head out the door today.

not bad up in new england through the mid-atlantic. all the trouble weather from chicago southward into the southeast, just isolated tomorrow. and as i mentioned, all the stormy weather that's in the middle of the country is headed to the east coast. if you have airport plans, tuesday and wednesday on the eastern seaboard, do expect significant delays. middle of the country and back towards the west coast, no delays for you, unless the sun is going to cause you problems. take a look at l.a.x. getting ready for a busy morning. you're watching "morning joe," brood by starbucks.

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this is a very proud accomplishment for myself, for my family. you know, i could remember a couple of months ago, with going to my kids school and, you know, shaq, and now i get to go as, you know, dr. o'nealle. this had to be my number one accomplishment. this had to be done right and done correctly. and google. google. thank god for google. >> that was great.

that was former nba superstar, now dr. shaquille o'neal, who earned a ph.d in education from barry university in florida this past weekend. thank god for google. here with us now, another basketball player with a focus on education, talk about a transition. arne duncan, here to kick off teacher appreciation week. also joining us on set, host of "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell. mr. secretary, you can take on shaq one on one, can't you? >> absolutely. >> i could take him on. i don't think i'll win that one, though. >> that would be a tough one. >> it's dr. shaq. >> mark halperin has an idea for all administration officials that he talks to in the future. and we're going to start this, try it out on you first. >> just a little ice breaker, mr. secretary, we'll go through the whole cabinet, do you believe that same-sex men and women should be able to get legally married in the united states? >> oh, come on? you're going to start there? >> yes, i do.

>> okay -- >> have you ever said that publicly before? >> i don't know if i've ever been asked publicly. >> we made news. >> there you go. mark halperin -- >> thank you! that was easy. i love an answer that's just, yes. >> it only took minutes for the white house to try to fix joe biden's comments. let's see how long it takes -- >> we'll see how this goes. >> he's allowed to have an opinion. >> so secretary duncan, student loans have been kicked around on capitol hill and across washington over the past couple of weeks. who would have believed this would be a political football just a few months back. >> yeah, well, people are saying the right things. obviously, we need congress to get this done. and we cannot afford to allow interest rates to double on young people. that would impact about 7.4 million families, and the middle class is increasingly worried that they can't afford college. so we have to do the right thing. congress has to act. they have to act before july 1st, do it in a bipartisan way,

and keep these interest rates down. we have to make sure the chance of going to college remains a critical part of the american dream. >> well, i have a question for you secretary duncan, one of the problem with colleges is tuition costs are going up tremendously. obviously, the administration is trying to do things to control those costs. one is to incentivize universities to keep costs low. how do you make it that the incentive to actually keep costs low outweighs the incentive of, you know, just charging these extraordinary tuition rates. because that's part of the criticism of this plan, that you can keep giving cheap loans, but as long as tuition costs go up, it's not going to make that much a difference. >> this is really about shared responsibility. we have to do our part. record increases in pell grants, $40,000, the biggest increase since the gi bill. obviously, now, trying to keep interest rates down on those loans. states have to continue to invest in tough economic times. states can't walk away from higher education, and universities have to do the right thing. one way in which we're trying to

incentivize this is a race to the top for higher education. to incentivize states and universities to continue to invest. but also, through greater transparency. we have 6,000 institutions of higher education in this country. best set in this world. and the more young people and their families have access to good information, not just what the one-year costs are, but the four-year costs are. people will vote with their feet and they want to get a great education. >> how is that true, though? if it's cheaper to go to a in-state university or how would they vote with their feet? it's a lot more difficult to actually travel far for a college than it is to stay at home. but it doesn't seem like you can do that. >> there are multiple opportunities in any state. there are community colleges that are these unrecognized, unpolished gem that we continue to highlight in a very strong way. within any state, there are literally hundreds of choices. >> the more young people and their families know what the financial aid packages are, know what the graduation rates are, know what the four-year costs

are, i think they'll make smart, savvy choices and good actors will get rewarded and bad actors will see less students coming to them and both of those things are already. >> so secretary, let me read from the baltimore sun over the weekend. graduates struggling with student loan debt have themselves to blame, by cal thomas. he writes, "i feel about those with crushing tuition debt the way i feel about people who choose to live along the frequently flooded banks of the mississippi river. if students and their parents choose expensive schools, they should accept the responsibility and cost accompanying that decision. the federal government has no constitutional authority to require people to receive an education. education should be the primary responsibility of state and local entities and parents. taxpayers should not be expected to pay for college tuition when graduates default on loans they agreed to repay. what kind of a life lesson is it when this early test of a young person's character is said not to matter?" what's your response to that?

>> i fundamentally reject much of what's said there. we have to educate our way to a better economy. the best investment we can make as a country is in more young people getting some form of higher education. four-year universities, two-year community colleges, trade, technical, vocational trailing, whatever they want to do. right now in this economy, we have 2 million high-wage, high-skilled jobs that are going unfilled in this country because we're not producing the employees with the skills that employers are looking for. the more we educate young people, the more they have those kinds of opportunities, the stronger our economy's going to be long haul. we have to work on this together. >> andrea? >> well, the senate is going to begin debating this week the student loan measure, and the real issue, isn't it, is how to pay for this? because both sides are arguing for keeping the rates low, if you can pay for it. what is your objection to the way the republicans plan to pay for this? >> we need to work in a bipartisan way. i think the general public is tired of the dysfunctionalty of congress. if there's anything that

congress can unite and do in a bipartisan way, it has to be around education. this is a chance for congress to take a step forward, do the right thing for young people, for education, for the country. let's do it together. let's do it with a sense of urgency. this has to get done before july 1st. >> but what's wrong with taking the money away from the affordable care act to pay for student loans? >> i think taking money away from preventative care doesn't make sense, but there are multiple ways to pay for this. again, folks can work together in a common sense way, in a bipartisan way. let's take the politics and ideology out of it. let's just do the right thing for our nation's young people. >> mr. secretary, a lot of focus these days for young people graduating from college and not being able to find jobs. what are the things you see at the state or federal level that are trying to matchup graduates with places they can find jobs. >> there's this huge skill gap between what employers are looking for and what employees have coming in. i think the more we graduate folks in the stem areas, the more we look at i.t., health

care, green energy, health care manufacturing. there are many areas where there are unfilled jobs today. and the more we can broker those issues, working with community college, so that real training, real education is leading to real jobs in those local communities, the more we can incentivize that, the more young people are going to enter the job market, ready to work with the skills employers are looking for. >> all right. so tell us about respect. what you all are doing for teacher appreciation week. >> this is teacher appreciation week around the nation. whatever we can to to shine a spotlight on the extraordinary work that great teachers do and the amazing difference they make in young people's lives. we're having a national conversation. we've launched this respect initiative to elevate and strengthen the entire teacher profession. we want to attract great talent, better retain that great talent. i've been very public in saying great teachers should make a heck of a lot more money than they make today. and we look at those countries today that are out educating us, singapore, south korea, and those countries, doctors, lawyers, engineers, and

teachers, all at the same status level. we have to do the same thing here. our teachers are nation builders and we have to respect them and treat them as such. >> really quickly, i just need an answer from you guys, nothing more. mark halperin, k through 12 teacher that had the greatest impact on your life. >> i'll need to get back to you. >> andrea mitchell? >> kristi. >> what grade? >> tenth grade. >> i have no idea. >> in high school. >> sister margaret, journalism, tenth grade. >> secretary duncan, who's your teacher? >> miss campbell, sophomore english teacher. amazing, amazing teacher. >> thank you, sister margaret and thank you to all the teachers. i don't know where you guys were. >> you were raised by wolves. >> physics teacher, loved him/hated him. >> social studies teacher, sixth grade. lee gallagher, the new issue

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welcome back to "morning joe." up in new york, here with us now, the assistanti inmanaging editor for "fortune" magazine, lee gallagher. so the big headline here, america's biggest companies had a huge year. >> a huge year. the big headline is these companies are making a ton of money. it's really a profit story. and we know kind of the past couple of years, companies have been cutting costs. it's why we're all working harder, because they're not hiring. but they're making money hand over fist. i mean profits for the whole list this year were up 16.4%. and that's -- that eclipses, the next record was during 2007, which was a roaring company. times are still tight, but these companies are making tons and tons of money. >> how do we square that with the times? we see the stock market's doing well, record profits from our

biggest companies, and yet so many people can't find jobs. we see these weaknesses in the economy. how do you square those? >> you square it, because these companies aren't hiring because they don't have to. they've gotten so much more efficient. with technology, it's made big companies so much more productive. a lot of them are making a lot of money overseas in developing markets. the actual total number of employees is up less than 1% during that time. so they will hire, eventually, as the recovery gets stronger. and so these profits may, you know, wane a little bit as hiring does come back, but, you know, it's when they're making this much money, i mean, and they don't need to hire, it's hard to see when it's going to happen. >> how do we bridge that, though. if they have found a way to succeed, as clearly they have without as many workers, specifically, without as many as american workers, why would they go back and hire again? >> that's the $1 billion question. it's like they've found free money. why would they then spend that money they wouldn't have to.

that's why we haven't seen hiring come back. because they don't need to. >> we'll get to the list in a second. but joe's down in washington with a question. >> actually, i'm going to jump ahead to the list. >> go for it. >> all right, willie. this a embargoed. >> it's a very good year to be an energy company. chevron, conocophillips have oil, will profit. >> that's absolutely true. the oil companies, don't forget, their costs are basically fixed. when oil prices rise, which obviously they did in the past year, their profits just go through the roof. in fact, of our newcomers to the list, a good deal of them were in oil, energy, or mining and minerals, which also saw a boom. you do see these general trends reflected in the list, which is really interesting. another interesting thing is there are no home builders on the list this year, and there were 11 back in 2007. it's really a snapshot of what's going on. >> what about number five right there, general motors having a

good year. >> general motors is one of the interesting stories on the list. the auto companies now are more interesting now than they were ten years ago before anything happened to them. this company mounted a massive turnaround and had its most profitable year ever last year, profits were up 49%. and it's in the top five for the first time since 2008. so gm had a huge year. obviously, thanks to the bailout, it wouldn't be where it is without it. but it's made a massive turnaround. >> we've ruined our dramatic countdown, starting at number one. but we'll go backward with. let's look at six through ten. general electric, of course, part owner of our company, berkshire hathaway, fannie mae, ford motor, and hewlett-packard. which one really jumps out? >> ford is really interesting. profit up 13%. fannie mae is interesting, has one of the largest losses this year, lost $17 billion, one of the largest losses on the 500

ever. we know what that company's been through. berkshire hathaway, still going strong. stays at number seven. and hp. you know, hp's had a tough year, but it's still in the top ten, in fact, moved up from number 11. >> looking a little bit outside the top ten, a pane that's always in the news is apple. >> apple jumped a lot. it's number 17, up from 35, and huge profit story there. huge revenue story there. i mean, apple sold -- the revenue it brought in from ipads and iphones was double what it was in 2010. i mean, you know, the story there just continues to be amazing and it's not news anymore, but when you just look at the numbers, it's pretty shocking. >> they had that outrageous last quarter. andrea mitchell has a question for you. >> lee, hi. one question i have is about the second, the number two company, walmart. where they had great profits, obviously, last year, but do you think that they are now vulnerable because of this big

investigation that "the new york times" broke into alleged bribery, violation of the foreign corrupt practices law in overseas payments in mexico, and a big cover-up. >> yeah, i think we'll see that impact the company. we've already seen it affect the stock. walmart's profits were actually down a little bit last year. this company has suffered from the economic environment. walmart was number one on last year's list. we've had a flip-flop between walmart and exxon. it's a little too soon to know what's going to happen with mexico, but it's a huge story and something the company will have to deal with and it's going to affect every aspect. >> mark halperin? >> i know there's no uniform answer, but what are these companies doing with their profits? investing, dividends, what's the general overview? >> it's all across the board. some of them reinvest, some of them do share buybacks, some of them are buying companies, some of them are keeping it. there's a lot of stockpiling going on, because of the uncertainty it.

it really is across the board. but definitely a lot of acquisiti acquisitions, i would say. >> just looking at this list, it really kind of frames and points out so clearly, crystallizes, really, why the oil companies need those tax subsidies approved by congress. >> between the oil companies, and just flat-out tax subsidies, between general motor and also fannie. >> it's good we're helping out the little guy. >> unbelievable. and of course, fannie mae, my gosh, they continue to get bailed out. but, business is pretty good. >> it sure is. >> one thing you see here is that they're not hiring, that payroll increases is only about 1%. so they are using productivity in other ways. the jobs are not being created by these companies. >> the companies are also benefiting from a low interest rate environment. wells fargo alone saved $1.4 billion in interest costs. so between that -- these companies costs for employees, that makes up actually 70% on

average of these company's costs. so when you are saving so much there, you know, can you can see why they're making so much money. >> lee, one project i've worked very personally on is bringing vegas back. and you say it's working. >> i was in vegas this weekend and i saw it firsthand. >> of course you were. >> what happens there will stay there, but wynn resorts is a newcomer to the list for the first time ever. and steve wynn has been making huge inroads there, and las vegas sands, which is sheldon adelson's company, obviously the money behind newt gingrich, had a huge rise on the list. a lot of this is coming from singapore and macau -- >> i was going to say, is that really vegas coming back, or just those two companies? >> well, those are two of the most highest profile, but i don't know. i was there and you couldn't walk on the sidewalks. it was just packed. >> that's good news for all of us. lee gallagher, thanks so much for looking at "fortune" magazine's new -- >> good news for all of us. you know, as willie geist always

says, what's good for vegas, is good for all of us. >> i'm a one-man stimulus program. >> as goes the strip, so goes main street. >> thanks, lee. >> thank you, willie. up next, what the elections in france and greece mean for the u.s. economy. business before the bell is next. what happens when classroom teachers get the training... ...and support they need? schools flourish and students blossom. that's why programs like... ...the mickelson exxonmobil teachers academy... ...and astronaut sally ride's science academy are helping our educators improve student success in math and science.

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could you hold on a second? it's your money. roll over your old 401(k) into a fidelity ira and take control of your personal economy. this is going to be helpful. call or come in today. fidelity investments. turn here. let's get a check now on business before the bell and cnbc's brian sullivan. he's live at cnbc global headquarters. how are the markets in europe handling, basically, greece going up in flames and france not far behind on the austerity front? >> well, when the news first

came out, the futures tanked. it looked like it was going to be just an absolute roller-coaster, all the way down. a total free fall. we have come back a little bit, guys. it is still looking like a negative open for u.s. stocks, although far less negative than it was when the futures began trading. we've started to see some things move back a little more in line. in fact, some of the european markets have stabilized a little bit. i think the initial panic, the initial fear, the initial sort of, oh, my gosh, and i don't know how to say that in greek, but that initial fear has subsided. still could be a wild day on the street, as people really digest what has happened. because what has happened, as you guys all know and have been talking about all morning is basically the entire european continent has said no thank you, null, nix to austerity. and i think we need to look at that from our angle too. the people don't want to have things taken away from them. i don't care what country you're in. >> brian sullivan, thanks very much. a look at the headlines --

[ speaking french ] >> we are all socialists now. >> i'm disturbed. >> how do you say "we're all socialists now," brian? >> we are all -- you know, i don't know -- [ speaks french ] >> mika? >> we'll look at some of the headlines making news on the west coast when we come back. ♪ [ male announcer ] american innovation. 29 years ago, it helped us invent the minivan. ♪ today dodge grand caravan is the most awarded minivan ever. ♪ who knows where innovation can take us next? ♪ directions to the moon. ♪

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now, that's progressive. a look at a couple of headlines from the west coast papers. we'll start with the salt lake tribune. a new national survey suggests the class of 2012 will find jobs. employers are expected to hire 9% more college graduates than last year. however, the study by the associated press finds that half of young adults with bachelor's degrees remain jobless, underemployed, or working positions that don't use the skills they acquired in college. and from salt lake city to los angeles, the "l.a. times," hundreds of surfers packed the southern california water in memory of nfl linebacker and avid surfer,unior seau, who, of course, was tragically found

the dead last week. saints quarterback drew brees was among those hitting the waves in memory of seau. up next, what, if anything, did we learn today? i'm meteorologist bill karins with your business travel forecast. storm system rolling through the great lakes and ohio valley. a lot of rain today, areas of ohio, indiana, and eventual down into kentucky and tennessee. atlanta, slight chance of storms this afternoon. same for you down in orlando. as far as the west coast goes, beautiful weather continues today. seattle looks great along with phoenix and l.a. have a great monday.

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welcome back to "morning joe." time to talk about what you learned today. mika? >> yesterday, it was so good. it was brilliant. i've never laughed so hard in my life. only problem. i've taken my children now to "book and mormon" and now "clive earnpark". they are ruined. >> andrea? >> dr. shaq. >> say no more. what did you learn? >> you've got to start every conversation by asking a person if they endorse same-sex marriage, because you'll get news. >> mark halperin? >> an entire show based on cats, not the show, but cats. >> willie? >> vegas shall lead us out of this. vegas shall lead us out of this. >> if it's way too early, willie, what time is it? >> it's "morning joe." stick around now for chuck. >> turn on the lights for you. i feel bad for that.