vote on the current rate of the subsidized stafford loans. they want to find out if they should charge people more interest while they play election year politics. this is merely one of a myriad of side effects of our system, but it does highlight how the american dream of college education is becoming less and less accessible. >> so far i have taken out $13,500 in stafford loans. if the stafford loan rate doubles this year, it will make college more senseless next year and add to my overall debt level. that money could be used instead toward a dream of under a graduate degree and making sure education is a right and not a privilege in america. >> the lending program is up to debate of how much we will charge interest to our poorest students. college tuition may be rising faster than salaries that the students actually earn after

graduation, and that is if they can even find a job, and if congress doesn't intervene, one of 300 grads will see the loan rate double next semester. add in tuition costs rising at 8%, and the 7.5 million student loans could be a 27% hike in the student loan rates. i, of course, would blame a two-party system that doesn't even want to talk about the problem. what about our guests? we start today with the director of youth advocacy principles. he himself carries 80 grand in loans knows of which he speaks. he put himself through college on "debt free u." and the newest book, "how to be richer, smarter, and better than your parents." i get in the metaphor, i become

your slightly older, better-looking brother in this metaphor. what's going on? >> this is a total side issue. the democrats look like they care about higher education and accessibility, the republicans get to look like they care about budget deficits, and this is not about either of those things. the rile issue is this is not like the pell grant program where it's an actual grant. this is an interest rate that students pay on subsidized loans that the poorer students pay. the real questions they're asking people to decide is how much interest should low-income students pay on their loans in order to fund tax breaks for other people? it is insane this is even a topic. >> aaron, how would modify or correct my or zac's assessment of this debate? >> i think a lot of what you said is right. this is a no-brainer.

this is a popular issue for young people, students, their parents. we obviously can't let student loans, the interest rates, double. that would just add cost to college education which is already out of control. we're excited to see there is some progress on this issue, and we're very hopeful that eventually congress will work out the differences. >> the thing that sprtrikes me about your generation, and i know that's such a blanket statement, but i feel that your generation is the first generation that has realized you can get a lot more for a lot less. my generation and older always believes you can spend more to get more or you have to cut and you get less. if you look at all the types of developments, you're like, we could all have apartments everywhere in the world, and it will cost us so we'll just wreck each other's apartments. we can have cars all over the world, we'll just rent them as we go. they don't understand this at

the government level. >> higher education is the worst example of this. the problem with student loans, the change in the monthly payment from this will be for one year. this is a very small amount of money. you could take the interest rate on federal subsidized student loans down to zero, and it would do almost nothing to improve accessibility. this is a story of declining state aid for public colleges, and the pell grant doesn't cover nearly the percentage of college costs it used to cover, but nobody is talking about that. this is a fake debate about an amount of money that doesn't matter and everyone is distracted by it. >> at the same time, aaron, the cost of learning continues to collapse, the accessibility of information continues to explode. it defies rational logic to see a resource learning, become more accessible and cheaper simultaneous to the cost of getting to it rising. >> i mean, i think that you're

right that there are innovative ways that are coming up to hopefully make education more affordable, but the reality is there is about 40 million americans who have student loans. we did this national use bust, went to 21 states and talked to young people who were working two full-time jobs and paying their way through community college and still had student debt. so saying to add $1,000 a year to your cost of college is insignificant is just wrong. this is a priority, and congress needs to address it. now, that being said, the cost of college -- >> what's needed in education goes well beyond the $1,000 relief. i don't think you meant to diminish the size of this money. >> as you look at it over the price of the loan, this is very small. >> and the scope of the consumer experience, adding debt to people who can't afford to pay it, san a surd political problem.

but go ahead, add your voice. >> i think zac is right that there are some underlying drivers, the cost of education. i think conservative education plays a huge role in making sure young people are making smart decisions when they're taking out these loans. i think places like pell grants is essential. education is juts essential for success in today's economy. >> the flaw, as i see it, is in the culture. the problem is big. we're in a huge transition. we have an increasing group of older people that need medical attention, we have young people that need work. we have a lot of transition to make. we're going to change all this. there are jobs for everybody, but instead of actually engaging in a real conversation to acknowledge, okay, we've got all these things. we'll have to work through this the next five or ten years culturally, we pretend they don't exist. >> right, and we get hung up on

stupid things like this. i think we should bring the newest interest rate on subsidized loans down to zero. it wouldn't do much. >> how much rate do you think there is for both political parties in the debate last summer -- tla out and really just being transparent and manufacturing political theatre seems risky for both parties. >> i think basically this is a no-brainr. you are seeing strong support from young people from both. they're supporting measures to improve college eligibility. we're basically agreeing we need to fix the issue. what it comes down to is how we're going to pay for it.

it comes down to $6 million. we paid for the senate which closed a loophole as opposed to the hospital which really puts a burden on young people's health, by cutting off an important fund. this is a middle class, pocketbook issue. >> the sprang part of this is, did you solve the problem? did you do this or that? this is basically how the political process works. how do we extend this beyond the base of pro wrestling to get parties to wake up. >> i think what people need to do. splin to them, this is not something that should even be at the table. this is not a source of revenue

to fund over. >> it makes no sense. it's insane. >> it's insane. i'm going to leave it on this. i agree with that obsession. >> aaron smith, young invincibles, check it out t. your parent coming up tonight on the dvr show. what's going on? in the primaries where none of us participate, if we did, imagine how many people would change the standards. viewers of the show know what i'm talking about. plus, gay marriage to be the wedge du jour in 2013. china voting today?

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a suggested new young republican has given his victory statement in his downtown indianapolis headquarters. >> enormous humility before the task of trying to do the very best job that anyone has ever done in this job. >> ah, the '70s. that was 36 years ago when richard luger was elected to the u.s. senate in indiana. he's never looked back, but all of that could change tonight as luger is suddenly the underdog, and his tea party opponent, richard murdoch, is there where none of us show up. murdoch has painted luger as someone who doesn't even show up in his state. it is that career mentality that he believes has paralyzed our

conference. >> the real disease is career politicians from both sides of the aisle whose number one goal is to get reelected and their goal is to be in a position to do something after the next election. but the problem with that is, as soon as they win the next one, then they don't want to make that tough vote to the next election. >> which brings us to our mega panel, karen, susan and jimmy williams. you're talking about the need to create more primaries like jeffries who is pushing for public financing, trying to make it more competitive. is there anything to be encouraged about in the sense that at least we're seeing action in primaries, or is this just one outfit that's meaningless in the scope of competitive primaries? >> i think this is a little outlier in terms of stagnant

promulgation. part of the problem when you talk to people on the ground is he didn't go do the work. you have to show up and ask people for their votes. >> prit marries -- 62% of the primaries were uncontested. >> yes, a lot of money was spent, but if you didn't even have a house in the state? >> so figuring out the ones who are most off the reservation. first of all, dick luger does have a house in the state, second of all, dick luger does have a farm in that state. >> so give us his address. >> i'm fricking 45 and i'll give my address. there is no one in the senate or state who is responsible more for less nuclear warheads facing and aiming, and the idiots in indiana don't like that? >> that's not fair. >> so a career politician who

assumes imperial control over a gerrym gerrymandering district. >> you do want a transition, but the point about being a career politician, yet some of the people we put in office just wanted it for a good gig. senator luger, like senator kennedy was, actually believed in governing. compromise wasn't a horrible word. these are the type of people that can get some things done. you see this particular primary, a lot of the wounds were still self-inflicted. so it's not the tea party -- >> this is not some competitor, interloper. >> all of that is true, but you still have to go and make your argument to the people. you have to show up and do the work. you can't just say, i am the reason there aren't so many things pointed at him, vote for

me. you have to see what you mean to their lives and how they're representing your best interests. i believe, he is a great statesman, it will be a great loss. but you still have to go and argue. >> i don't feel it's heathen enough. you could be a little more controversial because i feel like you don't have anybody's attention yet to cash in on the floor, so let's try to raise the temperature, shall we? it's primary day in north carolina, but in this case it's not even about the primary. this one -- oh, yes, your good friend and neighbor -- marriage equality on the ballot. this one called amendment one, marriage between one man and one woman is the only domestic union that shall thus devalid or recognized in this state. as of now, eight states in the district of columbia allow same-sex marriage in the nation

as a whole, is almost evenly split on the issue with exactly 50% supporting it in a new gallup poll. the king of saying, whatever is going on, but we're not supposed to say it, energy secretary arnie duncan counted themselves among that 50%. the president, however, maintained his position. did i get something wrong here? >> education. >> what did i say here? >> energy. >> education secretary. i can hear karen saying, that's not right, that's not right. >> i knew you wouldn't want to have it out there like that. >> so you're on this today. you rode through this on senate rules. from a marital standpoint, how do you look at this one set of rules? >> to me one set of rules means

marriage is marriage. when my parents were married, it was illegal in the state of north carolina because the constitution says one man and one woman. we know things can change, so to me, it's one set of rules, why do we care? how does it hurt me? if jimmy marries another man, it doesn't hurt my life. >> it might hurt mine. >> it might. >> it's still an institution of marriage, and if two people are willing to make that commitment, isn't that a good thing? >> anybody who looks at this, susan, particularly when it comes from conservative corners, which i don't even know the origin of this legislation, so i'm not saying this north carolina thing is that. when the traditional rovian george w. bush conservative quarters, you would get people offering one rhetoric, which is,

leave me alone. and the exact people who want you to leave them alone want to decide who, what, where, when on the list, and that's the part that confuses me the most. >> i think one of the most conservative points of view you can have is to keep government out of my bedroom, keep it as far away from me as possible. >> from the whole household. >> and the idea of having marriage, which is more of a religious overtone, frankly, everyone should be under the law of civil union, in my opinion. it should be whether it's a man and a man, man/woman, whatever it is, everyone should have a civil union and all of their rights should be distributed equally. >> being the only gay in the whole fricking panel, i've got a remarkably staunch opinion on this. take the words man and woman out of that opinion and insert the word black. when we get the graphic, take the word man and woman out and just put in black.

so marriage between one black man and one black woman is the only domestic legal union -- >> all right, take that out and put in baptist. >> marriage between one baptist man and one baptist woman is the only domestic legal union that shall be valid. >> when you start picking and choosing between people that all obey the same family, you violated. government soef reached. it's not republican, it's not conservative, it's overreached. this is crazy, it's discrimination, it's homelessness. >> but can we also call it what it is. we're trying to drive a wedge

between the black community and the latino community. get them fighting each other so they won't notice we're over there. >> and the president won't take a stance because -- well, he won't take a public stance -- he won't take a public stance on this because it's based on politics. so he's leading the biggest political fight of them all. >> straight ahead, even in the face of -- prove that we can grant the -- i agree with him of the american decline. the renaissance, still to come. like how a little oil from here can be such a big thing in an old friend's life. purina one discovered that by blending enhanced botanical oils into our food,

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

i think it's my job to continue service outside of

uniform, and part that far service is to take care of our fellow veterans by creating and guiding them towards meaningful jobs. >> there's something i'm supporting. it's called campaign for primary accountability, and the goal is to remove 50 incumbents and 50 democratic incumbents. this will shake up the power structure. >> you get the absolute elimination of street drug markets, you get 40, 50, 60% reduction in homicides. >> that's a light bulb, ladies and gentlemen. talk about weird. 19% more efficient, lasts about 30 years. a snippet of our travels over the last few months. the point, of course, we have the privilege of meeting folks every single day not only fighting to become the solution this country needs, providing things that are vastly more affordable simultaneously, vastly more official.

all cost less, get more. it's crazy. we have learned it's not exactly the institutions who do this, however. it's actual humans. shocking. and our next guest says it's true for the entire economy. he argues that our entire recovery from the crisis of '28 which has been able to gain itself back has happened in policy on any side of the aisle, not because of policy. our guest, author of "better, stronger and faster" in the rise of the lowering economy, it's the people that fit. >> even talking about the dysfunction in our political and public sphere, i've been out and about, and the private sector -- institutions, companies, individual entrepreneurs -- many of them have actually been doing quite well over the last few years. >> doing quite well in the sense they've been prosperous,

expanding, growing. >> tapping into internal resources, making stuff out of what we already have. >> getting more from less, whatever that is. >> so the answer is to engage with the world. and the u.s. -- we focus on so much of what we do badly: fiscal policy, monetary policy, housing policy. the u.s. is actually quite good at a lot of things and we have to do more of it. for example, exports. we don't make a lot in manufacturing in this economy. when we hit bottom, exports drew us out. we make food that feed the world, we make gas turbines, we make planes. i found a small wallpaper company. it's a matter of finding the things we do well, and either getting the government to help us do more or putting away the government with things i can do

well. >> because of a lot of rigging and the bank policy -- everything you're describing i agree with, but it's being done be spite a screwy tax policy, despite a screwy trade policy, despite a screwy bank policy, so i fantasize if you had at least those policies that were not a hindrance. >> people keep saying, we're going down, china is going to surpass it. i encourage paying on education, and that means if he do decline, it's a choice, and not something that's inevitable. >> i actually looked through your book. i'm going to buy it and read it, but one of the things you said in your book in the back says, at least 1% of america's 30 million companies export. huh? i mean, 1%.

less than 1%. >> your dry cleaner, right? it's a lot of companies. you could get rich having a furniture store. forget all about pennsylvania. if you were just in a couple suburbs of philadelphia, you could do really well, how do we get more companies to export overseas. >> not for much longer. >> it collects fees. it provides advances for money for him. they help guarantee you get your money. they're debating over. >> we talked about two sets of rules and mostly for big corporations, we basically protected them.

how has small furniture companies, how have they, so far at all. your ibm, you have 60-year-old people whose standard of living are rising. we get tourism, people coming from overseas. we had a record 65. >> which is really an argument to. . if you own a restaurant in tampa, maybe you put your menu in other languages. you have to be more engaged. >> what if it's other doctors?

>> then you have a problem, but there's 75 million people coming here for education. >> they're coming and buying our condos. >>. >> with their sort of set of commonalities between those businesses that have been successful in the last couple of years, whether that is a business approach that they took or a mindset that they have? >> why are --. a lot of the things we have are things that become very valuable like in stagramt.

. when you go to a global, people are telling you, i want to tell you about my plans for india and asia. when i go to these conferences, you got the indian exec. >> it's a plastics group based out of columbia that makes the yogurt. sort of. a place where there really is no jobs except for walgreen's. people around we see they're covered, okay? >> preparing make it. and as a result. >> only 30% of americans have passpords.

. . . >> they're also going to sofele for a different problem. >> yes. they have a big gent. of course, we all have. >> you can check out the book, "better, stronger, faster" the myth yal -- if you'd like to catch up on the table, look us up. we thought we were all addicted to our cell phones. ♪ ♪

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distinguished university professor who did both of those things. after 12 years of globe-trotting, he can now officially proclaim himself the first person in the history of the world to climb the highest mountain that exists on every continent on this earth, to surf in every ocean on this earth, something he calls the first ever global surf and turf. i like it, although the mountains scare me, especially everest. breaking it down with us, sisks professor francis slad. he writes about his journey in "the last breath." congratulations. >> thank you. >> why did you do this? >> i started climb ng my teens, started surf ng my 20s and realized if i combined those, i could actually turn it into something. >> what do you know now that you didn't know when you started this? >> i had three rules when i

started this. three things that will never happen to me. i will never get married, i will never have kids, i will never buy a house. i wanted no attachments whatsoever. where am i now? i got kids, i got married, i have a house. it was a complete transformation. >> what is it about the decision to overcome -- i'm sure this must have come with a tremendous amount of fear before engaging or doing this, or some amount of fear as you resolved whatever your hesitancies were. i guess what i'm trying to get at is, what do you know about yourself and about life that you didn't know before you did this? >> let me take the risk thing first. you don't need a parachute to skydive. you need a parachute to skydive twice, right? that was my attitude in climbing. i am very careful with my risks, and so it was a fearful -- there were some moments that were pretty dicey on the way and that's in the book, and people

can read that and maybe their palms sweat a little bit. at the time i was in it, i felt like i was managing my risks well. i didn't feel like i was running into any serious problems. >> why tell people about this? >> here's the biggest change. i would look at a map of the world for places to conquer. i would see mountains to climb, i would see oceans to surf. as a result of this whole journey, i have changed that view and made global challenges every place i've been. every glacier i have ever punched my crampon through is melting. 600 feet of the glaciers have melted away since i climbed it, and every ocean i surfed is rising. >> the only thing you can even remotely debate is why that is, and it is effectively irrelevant. because a higher ocean and a higher air temperature is the problem. >> that's what i can bring to the classroom now.

i can tell students what i've seen and how to bring it on. this is identifying a social problem and getting out there and doing something about it. >> finally, culturally, this is unusual. it's unusual in our culture, in the 21st century, for a professional to abandon some form of a career to go behave like a fool around the world climbing mountains and surfing. at the same time, there are an increasingly large number of leaders in this world and this country who are doing effectively just that in a way that is -- for some reason, and i presume it's for a very human reason and a very different thing than what our current culture add voluntavocatesadvoc. >> here's something different. one thing i tell the students is do not give up on government. don't give up. i know it's unpopular to support government right now, but i'm

saying don't give up on it, get engaged and make it better. the government is a powerful tool for improving the world, right? it's open, it's answerable to us. we can have them do things and improve the world and that's what i try to inspire students to do. and in fact, they've been successful. so over the last few years of my teachings this way, two bills have passed congress and been signed by the president of the united states. >> and how many of these students have a view -- 50% of our primaries are uncontested, 196 people provide agencies money for all the political candidates, and yet we see remarkable groups, oases, public sector and private sector oases. what do you think they should better understand? >> if you were in my class, i

would say, don't complain, do something about the problem. the students come in and say, those people are prepared. they're doing something about the problem. they're approaching government with a different point of view. >> and let me remind you of that fact. >> and let me give you the problem that i want to you work on. and would you recommend going back to the travel just to connect these things? would you recommend other people consider -- maybe not climbing every mountain or surfing every ocean, but conceive, whatever that may be for them as an individual? >> sure. i don't think it's hard for people to figure out what they think is wrong with the world. i don't think anybody out there thinks we have a perfect world. it's not hard to say what the problems are. >> meaning, you could improve the schools. >> sure. it doesn't have to be at the national level. bring it home to your school, your hospital, your level of sustainability. >> all that's required is getting engaged and not sitting back on your couch and

complaining about it. >> two questions. your favorite experience. if there's one of each trip that you recommend others do, the one thing you put on the list, in ret pro specht, you were like, man, that was stupid. >> so that's the experience of climbing mount everest. not necessarily because i climbed to the summit, but because i met my wife there. i had to say that. the experience i'd like to erase is at one point when i decided i wanted to do something about the global challenges, i actually auditioned as host for a tv show. biggest disaster of my life. i am no dylan ratigan. >> no one is, professor, please. it's one thing to climb mt. everest, it's another to host a tv show. >> and i'll never come near tv again. >> the title of the book is "to

the last breath, a memoir of total extremes." it's the people, not the institutions. the institutions are just a response to the people. >> get engaged. coming up on "hardball," will the president ban same-sex marriage? and will smith with the daily rant. ♪ got it all. here. have a good day, honey. i love you, ok. bye, mom. [ female announcer ] sam's mom is muddling through her allergies. what can she do? she can get answers at walgreens. with guidance and information to help her make informed choices for her allergy needs. like zyrtec -- with the strength of 24-hour rtec, you get relief from your worst allergy symptoms, indoors and out. right now, buy one and get one 50% off. ♪ find answers at walgreens.

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theatre star will smith, big name with big money. our friend says that won't solve the problem. take it away, david. >> thank you, dylan. without a doubt, we need to reform our awful tax code, and the best way to solve this problem is to start by being honest about what's going on. i am sick of conservative politicians groveling. the top 1% of income earners pay 38% of income taxes, while the bottom 50% pay a mere 3% of income taxes. so trying to make the top 1% pay more income taxes is just wrong, they said. i don't dispute the heritage foundation's figures, and believe me, some of my best friends are conservatives. i just wish those guys would give you the whole truth. you see, income taxes with only a part of federal revenues. about 42%, to be precise.

and yes, because we have a progressive income tax system in which the more you earn, the higher rate you pay, people who make the most income pay the most income taxes. but don't stop there. income taxes are just part of what funds the government. what about the rest of federal revenues? it just so happens that payroll taxes generate about the same revenue for uncle sam as income taxes. 40% of federal revenues are payroll taxes taken right out of your paycheck to pay for social security and medicare, two of the most popular programs in american history. so who pays payroll taxes? well, people who earn a salary. so we're not talking about hedge fund managers who take a percentage of their investment gains, or small investors who make capital gains on good trades. no, we're talking about wage earners like cops, teachers, doctors, pilots, all of them earn cages and all of them pay payroll taxes. there's more.

the federal take roll tax applies up to $110,000 per year. so any dollars you earn over that amount get a payroll tax rate of zero. so here's the whole truth about taxes. a teacher or cop making $80,000 a year pays a much higher proportion of their income in payroll taxes than does a lawyer making a million bucks a year. the cop contributes payroll taxes on 100% of her income while the lawyer pays out about 10% of his income. going back to the conservatives' argument about the tax burden on the wealthy, if you count income and payroll taxes, the wealthiest 1% pay about 20% of total revenues, which is about their first share of total income. so the system is unfair, yes, but not because working people pay too little. it's because our system is actually quite regress sieve in the way of taxes. if you earn a middle income salary, you get taxed at a much

higher percentage than if he had a higher income. with the bush tax cut schedules ending in december, there will be calls to lower the tax code end of this year, and we should. but please, let's at least start with the whole truth about taxes. dylan? >> well presented, david. i would only add that the whole truth about taxes would suggest that taxes in general should be used to get rid of things you don't and get things you do want. i don't see why taxing money seems like an insane act, but it's for a different conversation. nice to see you, david. that does it for us today. thank you for joining us. i'm dylan ratigan and "hardball" is up now. wedding bells. let's play "hardball."