and the associated press reports that miami heat forward lebron james, today, will be named the nba's mvp for the third time in four seasons. but i want to start with the history that was made this week. what the president said about gay marriage in his interview with robin roberts. it was a moment in the struggle for equality and freedom for lgbt people and for the country. >> when i think about members of my own staff who are incredibly committed, monogamous relationships, same-sex relationships, who are raising kids together. when i think about those soldiers or airmen or ha reyns or sailors who are out there fighting on my behalf and, yet, feel constrained, even now that don't "don't ask, don't tell" i because they're not able to commit themselves in a marriage. at a certain point, i've just

concluded that for me personally, it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that i think same-sex couples should be able to get married. >> the president came out in favor of gay marriage the day after the folks in north carolina voted to approve a constitutional amendment that makes marriage between a man and a woman the only recognized union in the state and three days after vice president joe biden said this when asked about gay marriage on nbc's "meet the press." >> i am absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying women and heterosexuals are entitled to the same exact rights, all the civil liberties and quite frankly, i don't see much of a distinction beyond that. >> if you take president obama at his word, there's reasonable belief that he's really just closed a long loop.

in 1996, as an illinois state candidate, he wrote i favor legalizing same sex marriages and would fight such efforts to prohibit such marriages. no separate but equal there. but in september, 2004, he had come to another conclusion during a radio interview with wbbm. he said i'm a christian. although i try not to have my religious believes determine my political views, i do believe they say it's something sanctified between a man and a woman. a month later, the president was asked about those religious believes. >> are absolutely critical. >> excuse me. but as far as why? what in your religious faith calls you to be against gay marriage? >> what i believe in my faith is that a man and a woman, when they get married, are performing something before god. and it's not simply the two persons who are meeting.

but that doesn't mean that that necessarily translates into a position on public policy or with respect to civil unions. what it does mean is that we have a set of traditions in place that i think need to be preserved. but i also think that we have to make sure that gays and lesbians have the same set of basic rights that are in place. >> it is a grand irony that this awkward, ultimately untenable, rhetorical middle space is now the one that mitt romney seems to be headed to occupy. >> the states are able to make decisions with regards to domestic partnership benefits, such as hospital visitation rights, benefits and so forth of various kinds could be determined state-by-state. by mu view is marriage itself is a relationship between a man and a woman. that's my own preference. i know other people have different views. this is a very tender and

sensitive topic, as are many social issues. but i have the same view that i've had since, well, since running for office. >> those official views include favoring a constitutional amendment that would bar gay men and women from marriage, positions that will sit well with the evangelical school founded by jerry fallwell where romney will be delivering a speech today. something tells me his language in front of that audience will be a bit less squishy. right now, i'm joined by linda hirsham. i'm sure her publishers are pretty psyched about the timing of all of this. syndicated column nighest david sirota. and host of his own show on kkzn radio in denver, my colleague and dear friend, richard kim, executive editor of the

nation.com. also director of the engaging tradition project at columbia law school center for gender and sexuality law. it's great to have you herement it's great to have this stuff to talk about this week which was pretty remark blowing. i thought wednesday was surprising in what we do in covering political news. so when something genuinely unexpected comes along, it's really interesting and exciting. to me, the most interesting part of this, and i'd like to get your thoughts, most interesting part of this to me is the reaction to it. particularly from the right. it's always seem today me in talking to gay rights activists and gay donors and lgbt folks in the president's circle, it was going to be hard to avoid ending up at this point. i think a lot of us had suspicions that he believed this

all along and his previous hete heterooxy was a tip of his cap. it was always clear to a lot of people that he was going to end up here. but what was not clear was the reaction and hue flat footed mitt romney has seem to be caught in that bite. i want to play shep smith. this is shepherd smith reacting to the news on fox news. >> president of the united states now in the 21st century. what i'm most curious about is in this time of rising debts and medical issues if republicans would go out on a limb and try to miake this a campaign issue while sitting very firmly without question on the wrong side of history on it? >> i mean, really. now, shep smith is a bit of an anomalous personality there. but you can imagine a time not very long ago when this would have been a softball right into

the fox news wheel house. this would have been war on christmas, new black panthers, jeremy wright all -- jeremiah wright all rolled up into one. and what have we gotten? nothing. what does that say? >> i think the polling has obviously shifted dramatically. independents favor gay rights. and young republicans, even, in some polls. there's obviously an electoral concern that they don't want to turn off the independent voters here. but i also think there's something else happening which is obama himself is the subject of the culture war. so you had these things, these cultural means in the '80s and '90s. sometimes gay rights and flag burning, school prayer, whatever. those issues impacted very few people materially. but they were useful to stand for the transformation of america into a more multicultural america.

now, obama himself does that. so it's sort of like how much more can you hate obama than this muslim, communist traitor. if you already believed these things because he supports gay marriage? there's just not more up there. >> it's already been priced into the obama stock on the right. >> it is his -- you know, for them, it is a defining thing that he can "other." >> i would agree with richard that there is an irresistible evolution in the country on this issue. but i'mless trusting of the long-term impact of this. i think the right will mobilize. it always does and it always has over the last 40 years used lgbt issues to win erectiolections a drive certain issues over outcomes. they may have been caught flat footed but i'm worried about the

long run. >> in 2004, there were all of these ballot initiatives. >> the map is done on that. there's only minnesota,which is the only state that will have a constitutional state ban on the ballot in november. >> but some kind of mobilization. >> abcellulitely. there's two ballot initiative that is are going to be on the ball loyalty in november. this issue is not going away. i think it is going to energize the president's space. i think it's going to be a really powerful motivator for young people and for independent women and all sorts of independent voter who is don't care about this issue and who actually do believe what shep smith said what is that the economy and the other issues are the most important issues facing the country. on the other side, the base of the right is mote vised by these kinds of issues. so that's where i am less trusting of their politics. >> it's exquisitely tricky for

them. they're forced to come out affirmatively against gay rights. that is -- when black people took themselves away from the water fountain, you didn't have to use hoses on them. it was much easier to enforce than once they started pushing back. now gay people are pushing back and you have to force them out. and the price of that is much higher. >> i saw a fascinating report on business week and he just got this very short memo to republicans saying here's how to talk about this. here's how to deal with it. it was very needle thread. it was not red meat, cultural stuff. it was, look, people are in favor, majorities of people are in favor of thimg things like e workplace. you're going to see them, i think, trying to thread the needle with this kind of civil

union, other rights and keep marriage cleaveed off. but i think what we've seen from the president's evolution, and generally from this fight, is it doesn't work. once you start in on this, we all know where it ends up. >> but the short term problem for mitt romney is that he's the guy who says that we should only be talking about the economy and jobs and in colorado, where i'm from, he actually interrupted and almost got angry at a reporter for even asking him a question about an initiative to legalize marijuana that's going to be on our ballot. he freaked out and said it's all about jobs. so he can't simultaneously go off and campaign on jobs. >> and we're going to see himle that out today. more on this topic right after this break. p courses. together, they raised ap test scores 138%. just imagine our potential... ...if the other states joined them. let's raise our scores. let's invest in our teachers and inspire our students.

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and, you know, he said his views were evolving on marriage. and call me sin hcynical, but i sure that his views on marriage could get any gayer. >> making a crack at the president. i was actually saying, before, when we were talking to the staff, if you were a gay man, that would be a funny joke, actually. but given that he's not and given the audience that he's talking to you, you don't see, as of yet, a lot of that kind of thing. the most manifestly bigoted reaction, the most manifestly anti-gay as opposed to anti-gay marriage or these couch terms, that's a sign of the progress. and the public opinion on this is shocking.

this is something that you wrote a book about this. but there's very few things i can think of that have moved this quickly in terms of public opinion. >> it depends on what you mean by quickly. activists have been working on this issue since 1950. so actually, i'm always very interested that these days that people are talking about how quickly. i mean, since the marriage thing in 1993. you have to give the movement a lot of credit for creating the environment for which this is possible. they won three crucial rights in the '90s and 2002 to be safe and so that your entitled to be citizen ins the colorado matter. so the movement had really teed this up by the time it surfaced again in 2003. and i think that's something that we forget. it's really important to give credit to the long, hard work that the activists did.

>> and we're going to talk quite a bit today about the history of the movement because your book, i learned all sorts of fascinating things about it. >> but you know, on your point -- i couldn't agree with you more. >> you were there. >> sheaves one of them. >> it's a really amazing moment. and it's his ttoric in every lel to those of us who worked on 30 plus years. but back to the whole question about bullying and the violence that exists, i guess i wanted to say that there still is a great deal of negative feeling towards lgbt people. there's still a lot of violence, there's still a lot of harassment. there's still huge parts of the country that have ababsolusolut civil rights protection. so i think the reaction of this week shouldn't allow us to forget that deeper reality. >> yeah, and we should -- you mentioned bullying. we should mention the big washington post article which

came out about a reported story about five schoolmates of mitt romney at a cranbrook school outside detroit which is a private prep school that romney attend that had there's an extremely strong bullying report of a young man that had bleach blond hair that was long and presented in a femme manner. he has since died. in he died in 2004 in which romney led a group of boys pinning him down, cutting off his hair. and i feel a little conflicted about 18 years old is 18 years old. it is 14 years ago. and it's hard to know what to make of it when you're evaluating a candidate. that said, the incident was clearly haunting and upsetting enough for the five people that were interviewed on the record that said this happened and i still remember 45 years later.

let me quickly play his reaction to it. >> i had no idea what that individual's sexual orientation might be. going back to the 1960s, that wasn't something that we all discussed or considered. i don't recall the incident myself, but i've seen the reports and i'm not going to argue with that. there's no question but i did some stupid things when i was in high school. and, obviously, if i hurt anyone by virtue of that, i would be very sorry for it and apologize for it. >> here's the danger for mitt romney in this. there's two dangers. one, it's relevant because i think it walks into the stereotype of who he already is. and so especially in the context of a week where he's all over the map on the issue of equality. where he's basically trying to say i'm not for equality. this story comes out which confirm that is he's long been against equality. so that's the first problem. the second problem is, and i said this in the break, i never wanted to be a voter who voted on a character issue. everybody does stupid thing ins

high school. the problem with this is even when you look at mitt romney in the best light you possibly can, you read this story and you recognize that person from high school, right? he suddenly goes from becoming no the guy who tried to please everybody in high school -- >> which was the former caricature. >> now it's he's the jerk, the bully, the guy you did not like. >> right. to me the disconcerting thing is the less of what happened when he's 18. it's his reaction now. if you read that and say i was horrified and i am not that person anymore and i'm proud to sahh i'm not that person anymore and we all change and i think everybody listening to this has done things they regret and i hope they can give me that forgiveness. boom. done. end of story. to say i did a lot of things and things like that, that, to me, was really, really the worst part of that. more on bullying and the struggle for gay rights right after a break. ♪ you are my sunshine, my only sunshine ♪

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talking, ofblg ivgof course rbis, about the president's personally supporting marriage equality. i should say that modifier is somewhat important in terms of what the legal landscape is going to look like. one aspect of this has gotten some attention, i think is interesting, is the money aspect. nick wrote a great piece in the "new york times" magazine about wall street falling out of love with barack obama and they are getting out fund raised by mitt romney in the financial sector. nick said they're now leaping on two big donor constituen stitch

con when psis. and now we have the dinner at george clooney's house that braulgt in $15 million. and i call around to a bunch of big bundlers for the president yesterday and gay donors and they basically said this will make a difference. people were with him and supporting him. this will make a difference. the campaign announced that they had gotten lots of money just in the immediate aftermath. i don't know how to think about this. every time i think about these calculations made about how you raise money, it derhess the hell out of me because, you know, it's not going to be the case that undocumented workers are going to be able to bring that money to bear. and it's not going to be the case that poor people are going to be able to bring that money to bear. now i wonder how much that complicates the picture of progrease in this. >> it's also true but it's not going to be people that could bring that much money to bear. i wish it were true.

but the gay community is not this giant atm for the democratic party. so, in fact, the republican party is always going to be able to out fund raise the community. even if every rich gay person in american gave the maximum, it's not going to top what wall street can do. i think it's extremely clever and commendable that the gay donors who can do it have used their economic power to try to get what they need from a society. so i actually admire that. it was very strategic and, particularly, for example, to mcgill and the people from the mcgill foundation have done a brilliant job. but at the end of the day, if you're in an arms race with the republican donors, you're going to lose. >> and i think it's important to remember that, look, in new york, you saw a situation where republican donors got together with a democratic donor to push through the progress that was passed here. and i think that ultimately, one of the defining parts that's not

talked about in this whole set of issues is the fact that gay marriage, equality, is not seen as something that threatens corporate power. so it's something where both parties can sort of move around and to your question about labor or undocumented immigrants, those are questions that corporate america sees it as potentially an affront to corporate power. >> well, corporations in washington state were absolutely crucial to getting gay marriage passed there. >> in support of. >> and there was bank of america who recorded a youtube video against amendment 1. and i actually think, to be honest, and this is just an instinct on my part. part of the squishiness that we're see sing that his homies are all in favor of this. the people he rolls with, the private equity folks, the finance people, they don't want people waging war. >> and the thing that i'm

concerned about moving forward on the other set of issues are the people like the head of goldman sach's, will say hey, listen, i'm a good guy. i'm the spokesperson for gay marriage, so i'm a great lib ram. rail. so there's this fear to be used in another way. >> and people say this about andrew kuomo. a whole variety of issues. but he can go out to liberals and with this kind of gay marriage badge. >> what's fascinating about what kuomo did is he kind of defined this issue as the core part of r progressivism. the old progressivism shied away from this. the new progressivism is embr e embracing it. i think the other bump is the mobilization of younger voters, the small-dollar-giver.

it really helped the obama campaign four years ago. >> there's a flip side to the highly organized gay donor model which is that the prominent gay and lesbian organizations toned to be top down. we look oud for homeless gay kids and gay people on welfare. we operate on a shoe string. so it's those sorts of issues that gay and lesbian people are going to be left behind. >> it becomes donor proven. >> that's why marriage grows in part. >> i wanted to take a step back because your book has really, rely -- i've learned so much from this book and i want to talk about the context of this week in the broad age of history. the story of the struggle for gay rights is instructed in and of itself and also instructed for how social change, how moral

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of our u.s. olympic team. ♪ ♪ >> that song will now be stuck in your head for the rest of the day and you are welcome. all right, one of the first major victories for the lgbt community happened more than ah 20 years ago. "one" published an issue called you can't print it. in that issue was an article called safo remembered. it was the story of a lesbian's influence on a young girl in a struggle to choose life with a lesbian or normal married life with her childhood sweetheart. that led the u.s. post office to declare the magazine obscene. it was declared that the story

in question was nothing more than cheap pornography. the case reached the united states supreme court in 1958 and the magazine won. the first-ever gay rights supreme court victory with the court overturning the lower court's decision that the bubbly caution could be banned for being obama scene. so the court -- the supreme court declaring antisodomy laws to gay marriage legalized in eight states. joining us now the tom doyne. good morning, tom, great to have you here. >> good morning, great to be here. >> you're someone who has witnessed part of this history. i don't want to overstate your age. >> that's okay. i think you already said i spoke in your high school or elementary school? >> no, i said high school. but i stipulated you were 7 years old at the time. >> yes. [ laughter ] >> so when you think about -- i guess the first question is your reaction to what happened this

week and how you see this set of victories in the broad sweep of history. does it feel like it's hanned very quick or does it feel like a long, hard slug. >> well, this week was amazing. i'm old enough and i remember stone wall happening. the progress from what happened at stone wall to the president of the united states anousing his support for same sex civil marriage. the progress can't be underestimated. i mean, it's incredibly powerful, what has happened. and his announcement is going to be i think one of the greatest boosts that we will ever see. it ea it's not going to epode and alle battles that we still have to fight. it's just monumental. we don't even know how huge the history of this is going to be.

and i feel as if i've lived through -- you know, through the best and the worst of times. so it certainly isn't in the blink of an eye, but it is very rapid progress and i think we'll see more of it. >> how should we understand this last 50 jeyears of gay rights movement. one is the inevitability of moral progress and evolution. that all bigotries fall by the wayside as people are exposed to folks. just to sort of put a stake in the ground. i want to play this public service announcement that calls boys beware from 18961. >> take the case of jimmy barns.

he played baseball all afternoon. he didn't feel like walking home so he decided to thumb a ride. what jimmy didn't know is that ralph was sick. not a visible sickness like smallpox, but no less dangerous and contagious. you', ralph was a homosexual. a person who demands an intimate relationship with miaembers of their own sex. so no matter where you meet a stranger, be careful if they are too friendly. if they try to wind your comforts too quickly and become overly affectionate. >> one never knows what a ho homosexual is about. it's interesting, the sickness part of that is key. that is the dominant paradigm that when gayness as something distinct, when the term homosexual that people talk about, its linkage to sickness is the structure.

>> it was a medical model from the beginning. from the 19th century when the concept of homosexuality was conceived in germany. it was a medical model. so gay people were called crazy. a burden that narrated women nor african americans had to bear. we were not by definition crazy because of who we are. and that made it a much different filght and harder fight. and when i saw that clip, people ask why i call my book "victory "victory "victory?" that was only 1961. >> at the very moment that new york was passing his its historic marriage legislation, the cardinal from new york chose to go to seattle to deal with the conference of bishops conference on the issue of clergy abuse.

so even with the catholic church, it seems the issue of abuse by persons in positions of authority than they are with marriage of same-sex couples. and, so -- >> and those with hr two other things i should say that were con flated from the beginning, the con flags of either pedophelia or predatory sexual behavior. >> which has nothing to do with homosexuality at all. it is a completely different type of which is something even the catholic church obviously knows is their biggest problem, certainly not the problem of our civil rights. it was nothing compared to that. >> i wanted you to weigh in in two second, we're going to take another quick break. porp push [ male announcer ] this... is the at&t network. a living, breathing intelligenc teaching data how to do more for business. [ beeping ] in here, data knows what to do. because the network finds it

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governor, where do you stand on equal rights for homosexuals?

>> well, as i said, i'm opposed to discrimination against anyone. now, i have to say that i think some of what we're seeing today is not a campaign against discrimination. it is a demand for recognition and acceptance of a certain way of life. >> gay rights groups? >> and i have to oppose that. >> how would you stand on a homosexual being a teacher in a grammar school? >> well, i'm sure there are some. and i believe in the privacy of an individual. what i am opposed to is someone using that forum and openly acknowledging the homosexual status and thus presenting young children this as an acceptable lifestyle. >> that's ronald reagan's

statement of a "don't ask, don't tell" life tile. . >> it's always hard having to see reagan living in washington and the silence and the inaction of the hiv-aids in thousands if not hundreds of thou sapsands o people losing their lives. i remember protesting that kind of thing 25 years ago. reagan was -- and what was so confusing and contradictory about it is that people in his closest aids were gay and he knew it and he accepted it. but again and again, you have this distancing between republican politicians who have family member who is know they are gay and then they take these public stance. and then there's lee januagions them. >> rachel did a long segment. you can't divide -- the person's

politicalness is very wise. >> let me go back before the break. there's basically four arguments that have been used against homosexuality against full acceptance. the first is you're sick, the second is you're criminal, the third is you're sinful, the fourth is you're immoral. as you point out, we organized around the sickness and the criminality through the sodomy laws although globally, there's still a movement to decriminalize. the sinfulness argument is being waged inside the nominations. and i think that ea's really important. >> that's exactly what's being talked about. and, in fact, frank ain the '50 and '60s fought the subversi subversiveness, as well. >> that that's the last argument left.

and because that's a doctrinal argument. that's a faith relationship as opposed to a secular. >> it's also hurting the church to be so antigay. that found that 91% of nonchristians said that the church was antihomosexual. that's the number one issue. >> but there's such a disagreement within christianity, within judaism and human variance and the very, very strong pro-lgbt views in most of the main line churches, includie ining catholicism. >> and if you look at the past two governors of new york, one african american, one italian american, both interestingly catholics, both supportive of

same sex civil marriage. i think the president's support for same sex civil marriage in terms of mainstream protestant life cannot be anunderestimated. there are so many people within each and every segment and part of judaism who also are supported, we see it within the islamic community is also moving towards not marginalizing discriminating against people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender for that matter. we are seeing enormous transformation there, as well. there are are terrible problems in many countries and we all to what we can to try to help there as well while we're working here in the united states. but the progress is rarely backwards.

and even then it's only one step back and two steps forwards. even the discussion is helpful to is. it helps people to come out. it forces family tos to discus the issue. even losses, oleate ply, are wi. could it have been the case that it wasn't have ended up with this way. is it a series of actions and pushes at the right place and the right time. >> really, people took and made this happen. and also events made it happen. who knows where we'd be if it weren't for the terrible aids epidemic. >> i want to talk about that because it's a key part of your book and a key part of this story about this moment of intense devastation and crisis that produced a set of institutions, social capital that would flow ne'er the years to come. let eegs talk about that right after we take this break. ent

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♪ what did you do what did you say ♪ ? >> the history that proceeded the moment that were laid this week. and right before the break, we played reagan and mentioned the aids crisis. how did the experience of aids, and i'd like to hear there fer you guys who were there, how did it create a foundation for what we've seen in the last decade or two? >> one thing that's obvious but needs to be said is that there was a thought experiment. if all gay people woke up one day and there were all purple or green, there would be no problem with discrimination because everybody would be out. so what happened terribly in the aids crisis is it force teed an enormous number of people to be out that would never have been out. so it really exponentially increased the visibility of gay people. >> i think coming out has become

something that people for my generation is less loaded and less frayeded for a lot of reasons and also doesn't pack quite the same political punch that it once did. but a huge part of the earliest part of the gay rights movement was simply the declarative act of being publicly out. i want to show harvey milk being sworn in taking that exact brave step. >> it is well known that i am a gay person. and in this state, there is a law that says gay people cannot be married. but there is no law that says two human beings cannot love one another. i have a loved one. unfortunately, he is too nervous to be here. he left. >> so that -- so that's one aspect of this that helped was if -- well, helped. i mean, it's a macabre way of describing a devastating, devastating experience. but people came out of the closet because they had to. >> and money flowed in.

second big change was that enormous amomeunts of money befe the aids epidemic and 1985 right before the new medicines came in, it was tenfold, a hundred fold greater. so people came out and money came in. the third thing that i really care about the most is that the gay community responded initially to the reagan administration by caring for one another so that they provided a moral model of extremely moral and amazingly admirable behavior that people of observed. when bill clinton made his speech at a fundraiser in hollywood, he mentioned that very thing. he said when you got sick, you took care of each other. walk the dogs. mop the vomit. tfts it was a moral example to all of us. i think it changed the way

people think about it. >> i think you're absolutely right. but i think that coming out made us visible and legible to a world that had seen us in very stigmatized and marginalized image throughout the '50s, '60s, ea '70s, '80s. and i think the other thing that happened was that we consciously had to get organized in the '80s. we had to build institutions. we had to create organizations not just for care giving, but for political advocacy. for the legal organizations that grew stronger. they had been founded in the '70s. lam da legal was founded in '73, but they grew stronger in the '80s. critically, i think one of the biggest shifts is we moved to the states. it hitted primarily from congress more to state legislatures and building political power in stats.

>> and in new york state, this really can be kpemplly fiaued by what happened happening. in new york, if a couple was together and they lived in an apartment and one perth ne'artn of aids and the other was not on the lease, they were thrown out. that was a battle which we had to fight because people were losing their homes. and that battle started the early '80s: and by 1989, the state's highest court ruled. >> and won that battle. sk >> mostly men, that led to judges making the decision that there could be co-parent adoption. so same-gender families could adopt children. this was a huge victory. the recognition of our families. >> and this is new york state senator tom dewayne. thank you very much for coming in today. we'll be right back.

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good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. with linda hirschman. author of the race revolution and syndicated columness author of back to our future. a great book about '80s pop culture. we're talking today about the gay rights revolution, the moral revolution, the legal revolution that we've experienced and very significant historical moment that happened this week with the president's coming out and saying he favors marriage equality. and we were talking about the arc of the battle for gay rights with state senator tom doyne there. and to me, the most striking thing is to cast one's memory back just eight years ago. that is what is -- as someone

whoa this is written in the span that i've been covering politics reported on elections. this is george w. bush getting on national television to endorse a constitutional amendment, which we should note is the policy of the current republican nominee. this is him giving a radio address endorsing a constitutional i manedment for gay marriage. >> the yoon of of a man and woman in marriage is the endu enduring and important constitution. and because families pass along values and shape character, traditional marriage is also critical to the health of society. our policies should aim to strengthen families, not undermine them and changing the definition of traditional marriage will undermine the family structure. >> yeah, richard? >> well, you know, we've been talking about reagan and bush and this progress and people kochling out. and i just want to throw a little bit of cold water on that.

the clip you played earlier, the public service announcement, you know, some version of that stilling airs in gay repairtive surgery. some 30% of homeless kids are gay because their parents kicked them out. this is where class and mobility matter. the ability to escape household relations that are homophobic and to create opportunity somewhere else is absolutely essential. that's why i've been so, you know, adamant that the lgbt movement needs to focus on economic issues as well. >> i'm skeptical that the progress so far tees off the economic justice movement. i think the earlier discussion threatened the money that's coming in is not threatening to corporate america, it's not threatening to heterosexual

familial america which is why the gay revolution is having an easier time than the feminist movement did. i think that's the most important thing i would like people to take away from my book. the lessons are not hard to see. one is pay attention to one issue. and don't make every issue your issue. >> so actually -- >> if richard wants to concentrate on economic justice, he should concentrate on that and leave the global warming to somebody else. >> this is the most unique thing that we can learn from the gay revolution. from the beginning, they said gay is good. they had no choice. and they've been able to fight the religious right because they that had the moral high ground.

and the third lesson is have some variation of weekly meetings. that was the lesson of that. >> that's very interesting. >> when i saw occupy wall street, i said where's the weekly meeting. i have not seen evidence of it. >> that's interesting. and the idea of genuine, actual membership organizations, organizations to get a room together. one of the things about reading perth of the waters, whi perth, there are 45 page rendering of a single meeting. those were 14 hours people in a church without air con dic-coni in the south in the summer. >> the air of spring after the friday mosque meetings, okay. troy perry's church, the metropolitan community church, the gay church. he said to me in an interview, it was a church. we were toothed every sunday. >> one of the movement points that i think is important that

you see in the polling about equality for lgbt folks is the more people know somebody who is lgbt, the more there is support among people who know though folks. and i think if you want an analogous -- use an analogous example, we have a situation in this country where we have poverty. one in seven or one in eight people are impoverished. it's harder and harder to say poverty is over here. it's the other. now it's everywhere. >> i think there's an analog for labor unions at this moment. it's the more that labor unions decline, the more labor unions become something that you just hear caricatures about. and that's -- it's easy to characterize something.

>> i think absolutely, the lgbt movement has advanced because it focused. it had a clear set of objectives. it went after them. it organized people. focus cuts a different way. if you look at the women's movement, the avoidance of race and economic issues hurt the women's movement in the long run. i believe it has. and i think that the other reality is that there's a difference between the lived experience of millions of lgbt people and the official agenda of the lgbt movement and those have to continuously be in conversation and converge, which explains why participation is pornt. studies say that there's about 8.5 lgbt people. within that, there are poor, middle class, upper middle class and rich people. and there's a range of issues that each of us face. so if you are a lesbian, you are affected by a reproductive freedom and all the restraints on reproductive freedom.

so those issues are not other issues. they're central issues. they're my issues. so when the gay movement endorses anti-choice candidates wrongest , it's a problem. >> that ease an easy example. the problem mat cal nature is obvious. i do disagree with you that the feminist movement was harmed by its single focus. i think the feminist movement succeeded when it was extremely narrowly focused. >> but you know what, another thing about the gay rights, we're a sort of small set of people and we need allies. that's the other thing about working in coalition with other groups. when people came out in the work force, the model is lcil, that talked about that together and that created a basis for an alliance between labor and gay rights organization.

things are absolutely going to finish this arc of justice. >> one of the things i've seen developing and gets to this question of the wedge, and cultural war politics, is this crazy inversion from what happened in 2004 in which there's the tom frank thesis in which republicans use social issues to hoodwink people in their economic interest. it's a distraction and the left is traditionally grounded in a call for economic justice in a class-based analysis and, you know, disassembling economic hire aerarchies. and we have this strange inversion right now which is that when mitt romney gets asked cultural war questions in colorado about medical marijuana, gay marriage, illegal immigrati immigration, which back in the day would have been red meat. they wanted to get asked that so he can knock it out of the park, he gets angry and says let's talk about economic issues.

and here carl rove accusing barack obama of politicizing gay marriage. >> remember, how political is this? he changed his mind but he was waiting until it was close to the convention in order to bring the maximum amount of benefit out of it. 30 states have defended traditional marriage. north carolina, critical value of one state voted the day before he made this announcem t announcement. 61-39 in nay fer. >> so you think it's a net negative? >> net negative, yes. >> david, i wanted to ask you, have we experienced a strange, social economic issue inversion right after we take a quick break. ts blossom. that's why programs like... ...the mickelson exxonmobil teachers academy... ...and astronaut sally ride's science academy are helping our

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you know, malea and sasha, they've got friends whose parents were same-sex couples. it wouldn't dawn on them that their friends' parents would be treated differently. and frankly, that's the kind of thing that prompts a change in perspective. you know, not wanting to somehow explain to your child why somebody should be treated differently when it comes to the eyes of the law. >> barack obama talking about part of his reasoning behind coming to the announcement that he made this week about marriage equality. but, david, we left this question about inversion. and who wants to talk about what? it's when you hear mitt romney say i don't want to talk about social issues, you're like wait a minute, the 2004 thing, the only thing we wanted to talk about was social issues. i could imagine bill clinton

saying something like that on a social issue. and i think that what we have to remember is that a lot of the timing of the most veirulently times was when the economy was doing a lot better and that the economy has become such a focus and with the republicans now in the challenger position for the white house, we have the republican party saying no, no, we don't want to talk about judicial sowbelly issues. it's as if the rolls have completely reversed because the economy has so muss cussed our tension. so they want to talk about it? >> they want to talk about it because i saw a republican on twitter the other day who said yet ode dad when we're not talking about obama in the economy. that is how we're going to lose the election.

i thought this is great. i'm all in favor of this, but i'm nervous with the polling in ohio on this. i mean, there are going to be -- we shouldn't overstate the political support for it. polls nationally, as a mar jarty pox. but not necessarily in every swing state. and this is in reaction to the president's actual announcement, 51% approve. >> except when you look at the polling if you did a poll for example in april and they asked voters to do a list and same-sex marriage finished 18 and last on that list, well behind issues like economy and jobs and eave things like iran and gun control and birth control. this was something that people do not determine their vote on. the economy is really going to be the best center piece. >> so the strategy will be in not taking a position or in down playing or taking a position but

down playing and i saying i'm against gay marriage, that's not important. but what they're betting on, and i don't think it's bad political bet, is not to necessarily rile up their social conservatives, but to reach people who may say the only thing icare about is the economy: so they're saying the democrats are trying to distract you. >> and this is what's so fascinating. the notional distraction has become a theme amongst republicans. and i'm so used to that being something that progressives and liberals say. that was the line. and howard dean even said that in 2004. they want to take your eye off the ball and have you argue on these social issues and not talk about the "real" issues, right? >> but it's a horrible reflection of the way the democrats have lowest ownership of economic justice. that -- talk about inversion. i mean, we -- they started it.

and after four years of democratic administration, we're somehow on the defensive about economic justice. how d did that happen? >> i don't think president obama is going to lead with gay marriage. the economy is going to be his issue, too. and there's a very smart or compelling framework that i wanted to do more and here's specific instances where i tried. >> but here's the strategy that i've seen that i think is interesting. we've seen the president is talking about the economy a lot. and every event, whenever you put on our channel during the day, he's out doing jobs training or clean energy or something like that. but his campaign and surrogates are very happy to wage these battles on birth control, right? on -- i think on gay -- on marriage equality. because they think that they have the polling in their favor, that they have the political capital in their favor. so i think that's two levels in which the campaign is happening. and a part of this is you can't control the economy.

that is the strategic box that the obama reelection campaign is in. lord knows what's going to happen in greece or europe. that's the weather. you netted change the weather. in terms of making choices about what you can lead with, they understand these are the kinds of things where you can control a new cycle. you can control a narrative. you can control issues. more on that right after this break. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 there are atm fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 account service fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 and the most dreaded fees of all, hidden fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, you won't pay fees on top of fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 no monthly account service fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 no hidden fees. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 and we rebate every atm fee. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck tdd# 1-800-345-2550 because when it comes to talking, there is no fee.

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♪ >> we touched on something before, linda, and you touched on it in your book. it's something i want to bring to the floor here, which is if you -- and i don't want to say this to pit different democratic constituencies against each

other because that seems counter productive. but if you look at the democratic coalition and the different institutional parts, ditched both activists and groups inside the beltway and outside the beltway, you look at lab labor unions, aflico, you look at green groups, you look as folks concerned with immigration rights. go down and this is the way they're built. i think it's hard -- i would make the argument that out of all of those groups, the lgbt groups have had the best three and a half years. i think that if you were to say standing there on inauguration day to now, these are the things we want to see happen in the first term yvette obama administration and you said that to the sierra club and the human rights campaign, only one of those can real lid say, you know what, we've combat it done. and you're not happy then.

, it's hard to imagine what would satisfy you where as if you're working for immigration, we're going to talk to someone who's working on immigration in cicaprost a bit. why duke -- first of all, do you think the pram nighs is right? this to me is the key question. >> because i say. if we could learn the lessons of the gay revolution, all progressive movements would be better off. and the answer is they were focused laser-like. >> yes, it says focused. >> the second thing is that they were extremely smart. a handful. i call it the gay war roam. a handful of extremely smart, relentless bloggers were on the administration every day and they used the new technology to get to their supporters. >> this is something that i think is important, which is that one of the big debates that we've had on progressives in

dealing with the obama administration is how much to pressure, how much to shut up and support and what is that outside/inside tension look like. it seems to me they've gotten this outside inside tension pretty right. they were really hard on the add h administration. don't ask, don't tell. >> one has to be really hard on the government and push and push and push. but i think there's a couple of other elements that i would asked to the mix. one is the presence of the pro -- of gay supportive lgbt supportive appointees. i mean, hill rio clary clinton different secretary of state. kathleen came to the table as a pro-lgbt rights governor and on and on down the chain of command. so when you have a bethe who

appoints all of these great people. you other going to see some changes in the administration. >> can i be sin hcl? i don't want to down play the you can success, but the thing that makes me nervous is the major thing -- if we take the premise at your word that if the best success among the progressive coalition is also the set of issues that at least challenges corporate power so that you're pushing up dipneusti -- you're not really pushing up against huge, corporate money. so the obama administration may have in its own political calculations, we don't want to go up against the oil and gas industry. we don't want to go up against employers who hate unions, et ceteras, et cetera. here but here's a set of issues that we're sitsympathetic to do and there isn't that bull work of corporate money. >> i should say i don't think that discussion in those

explicit terms has ever happened. >> of course. >> and they've supported one element here of wax martin being the trade bill in the house. and they sort of supported the free choice jubilate. . >> i would hate the lesson to be -- >> no, the key point is to find issues where we don't have to go up against huge money. >> it's a really good point. and the other piece of the picture is that the lgbt movement has not wanted all that it wanted. and there are huge, huge areas of frustration with the administration and certainly in the states. >> to talk about those? >> well, the nondiscrimination act. >> which they could have signed an executive order last month that would have required federal contractors to basically use a diverse of enda. they didn't sign that executive order. >> and that prompted, just to talk about the kind of movement in and out thing, that calls for a donor strike. there's a confers happening that

in response to not signing that executive order that would be signed that donors were going to get together. >> and even, you know, obama's statement on gay marriage the other day. he said he personally supports it. but, you know, wants to let the states decide. and, you know, i know he doesn't believe at the end of the day that it's purely a state's right issue. but that was a kind of, you know, way of not putting all his muscle and drawing this bright battle line saying i want to get rid of all of these 32 state constitutional amendments and make this a big, big federal case right now. >> although that would have been political. >> when i wrote that, i'm not saying that he should have done otherwise. i'm just saying that was the effect of his statement. >> linda hirschman, the author of the triumphant gay revolution. i'm sorry that we have to have you part us today. thank you so much. it will be in bookstores very soon. more on this after a break.

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joining us, antonio vargas, organization helping bring new voices into the immigration conversation and a author of a new piece called gay marriage an american majority. the peace references an amazing speech by james baldwin that i never read and i stayed up way pass teed my bedtime last night. it's really amazing. it's like somebody threw a brick on you. >> people should search it on google. >> and it's about, you know, him speaking as a black, gay man in the midst of tremendous bigotry directed at black people and at gay people about what the nature of the american majority is. the reason i want to bring you into this conversation, we're talking about the success that the lgbt movement has had and you're someone who has come out twice in your life. >> i'm done, by the way. >> any big announcements for us,

by the way? >> it's all on the table. >> if you gave me a chance. we can't vote, you know. >> you've come out twice. you've come out as a gay man and as someone who's an undocumented immigrant. and you have a foot in each of these worlds, i would say, and reported on politic ins washington. an i'm really curious, when you look at the immigration right tis movement and the did i have cultties it hass faced. poi particularlily in the white house. i think it's broad to say it's frust race. and confuses. why confusion? confusion that i really don't understand how president obama -- i think that when the history of this administration gets written, the fact that he's deported more people than president bush did in eight years under the banner of

something called "secure communities." i really don't think this is something that he'll be able to shake. and they thaugt -- look, i understand the politics behind this which is let's get tough on the immigrants so the republi n republicans play half ball. >> he satid that to the state o the union. look, we've done what you wanted. now, let's trike a teal. but you probablily give. the moment so what luck do i have when the own president of the united states is being questioned of his sit sen ship. >> right. being accused of being a crypto undocumented immigrant. >> richard made this great point that barack obama is the culture war. >> that's why he can't get angry, right?

because everybody on the left sometimes thinks oh, he should gettage rioer. >> but they already hate him so much, there's no more hate to go, you know. but i was just hoping that that's the context of the game, right? the conscience, the fact that he really should not be doing what he's been doing. and for us, in the immigrant community and somebody, again, who's openly gay, if he found the evolution in this issue, when is he going to get in this one? >> well, let me ask you this. when you put these two policies side by side and you look at the two movements side by side and you look at the results, what lessons do you draw? how do you understand the desperate results of these two elements of -- that have a lot in common, right? it is about coming outed. it's about recognition. it's about seeing people as

human beings and not as some caricature. >> you cannot separate race from it. i think if they were dealing with mostly latinos and mostly asian people. and, you know, frankly, and it's tough, you know. i was just in alabama last fall for a week. and i'm one of these people that i just never want to throw the r word around. racist. it just gets really counter productive. but seeing the people's reaction in alabama, which has out arizona. in alabama, it's a felony for an undocumented immigrant to get in any business transaction with a governmental entity. it means it's a felony to get water in you house. like this is happening right now. and so to kind of unpack that and realize why are they doing this? remind you, birmingham is 7% hispanic. you would think j-lo had a camp

downtown. >> here's one difference in immigration reform is that there's a division within the latino and asian community about this. when you poll them, they don't say immigration is their number one issue. they say economy, jobs, education. it's not really on the map of most asian american, you know, political -- >> there's a lot of shame. and a lot of fear. >> but that sounds very familiar, right? shame and fear is precisely the kind of emotions we're talking about vmt i want to talk about that a little bit more right after the break. i needed a coach. our doctor was great, but with so many tough decisions i felt lost. unitedhealthcare offered us a specially trained rn who helped us weigh and understand all our options. for me cancer was as scary as a fastball is to some of these kids.

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facebook and twitter and youtube. >> i remember watching youtube in chicago. their banner was undocumented, unafraid and unapologetic. and i'm sitting there thinking oh, shoot. i mean, that's when, for me, that was part of us saying you're such a coward. these kids, and the beauty of it is these are straight and gay, you know, a lot of the leaders in the youth movement and immigrant movements are openly gay. >> and so they have the experience. >> they've grown up with ellen degeneres on the cover of "time" magazine. the fact that thaw there are straight allies and completely unracist when the gay african americans got thrown under the buss. that's a really,really

interesting change. and i think the gay rights community, especially the people that have been fighting this for so long, you guys, deserve a lot of credit. >> and i think that your point earlier about race and cultural differences, it's a really important one in the difference between the immigrant rights work and the gay rights work in this way. on my radio show in colorado, immigration policy has been a big issue there. you talked to people about immigration, you would have callers on. and, essentially, they're like, well, i wanted to crack down on immigration because of jobs. >> you say is it really about jobs? and ultimately, kühne you peel it all the way back, it's a cultural, racial argument. and so that is one of the -- with the gay rights movement, there's a lot of the idea that oh, i dents know that person was gay. now that i know that person is

gay, maybe i'm more open to equality. >> it's great because both of these arguments are about the addition of a national identity. >> that's the key. >> when we decided to name it, let's get immigrant out of the name. what is at the heart of the arizona sb 710 law? that you can stop anybody who you deem to be illegal? what does that even mean? >> and that's what the beauty of politics is. the process of defining a national identity. who we are as americans continues. it's not static. >> that's the meaning of america. >> and that's what the power of young -- >> that's why the opposition is so powerful, as specialespecial issues like immigration. if you're in a majority that may be a minority soon and you're used to having the privilege of being a majority white mrcse and you see that the definition of america is fundamentally changing, to a lot of especially

older white americans, that's scary. suddenly, everybody is speaking spanish. for people who don't like that, for bad reasons, they're the ones who are most vocal, unfortunately. >> and it presents interesting challenges to the republican party as they navigate this new eh fifficiency. it's a phase two of the the new cultural war because there are costs on the other side. we're seeing it with mitt romney and the reaction this week being somewhat devyvanseive. he wasn't really leaning into it the way that he's trying to walk back all the very demagoguic anti. i think republicans recognize that there are deminnishing returns because of the ways the numbers work and what the future of america is going to look like.

they can't keep going to that well because the well is ultimately going going to run dry and they are going to die of thirst. >> what they're doing is placing voter restrictions on the ability of lots of people to access. >> and that's something that we need to look towards. we were just talking about it during the break. what do we know now that we didn't know when the week began? my answe right after ts. wake up!

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first, a quick update on what we learned last week about dodd-frank. we learned on thursday that jpmorgan chase lost $2 billion, that's billion with a "b," from the derivatives trading desk. jamie dimon has been the vocal rule of which is still being fought. in which properly implemented

would have saved jpmorgan $2 billion by preventing them from engaging in those trades in the first place. the securities trades commission says it is focused. so what do we know now? we know that the president's evolution has brought him to the point where he publically proclaimed his support for marriage equality. he filled out a candidate questionnaire stating his support for marriage equality, a position helated discarded. we know that this administration has been the most pro-game policy grounds. and what we don't know with any certainty what political benefits this may confer, we know the polling on this issue is moving with startling speed in the right direction. we now know that personal, social and political moral tr s transformation is possible. we now know that we've lost forever one of the most beautiful, poignant and

inspiring voices in all of children's literature. we also know that he lived his life in an era of complete con tectae for gay people and hid his true self in the closet. >> how do you think being gay affected you as an artist? >> in a very negative way. i didn't want to be gay. i did not want it. it was another sign of isolation. and don't forget, when i was gay, the world was extremely unwelcoming extremely unwe unwelcoming and very different and something that you hid. i think that when i was young, i think that if that knowledge were to come out, it would ruin my career, but that is when i was vest ed in a career. and what could bring down a career, but a scandal. okay. gay man doing books for children.

hello. >> i know that i was lucky enough to grow up and come into consciousness in a household where his work was cherish and revered and we know that the pathos and the pain he felt in the life produced an artist with uncompromised passion for his work to be revered and i know i will be reading his books to my daughter for years to come. and marriage equality and any state wanting to ban it where our friends lgbt continue to face discrimination small and large on daily life. we know that bigotry is being harder to flourish, and now we know that the eikner foundation will be able to present a $40,000 matthew shepherd gold scholarship to keaton fuller for fighting homophobia while being

openly gay in school. he was rejected to have the scholarship to be there in the school, and this is sadder that this is one of my last experiences to remember the high school years by. but after newspaper stories, there was a deal to be struck for them to be at the graduation ceremony. we know that the fear cannot be eradicated by the changing of laws and the work in minds and institution institutions continues. i want to know what my guests now know that they didn't know at the beginning of the year. sir richard kim? >> you should know the case of the uc davis dozen. home of the famous pepper spray case including a poet who is a contributor to the nation, and they constructed a series of sit-ins, and wednesday a california prosecutor decided to bring 20 counts of obstruction of movement and one count of

conspiracy against the davis dozen and if found guilty they could face 11 years in jail and $1 million fine. >> for sitting down on a campus? >> exactly. >> jose antonio vargas, what do you now know? >> well, i always get the question of what about illegal do i not understand? i didn't know in 1958 it was illegal for a black person to marry a white person and then barack obama, a son of a kenyan who got here to the united states through a student visa was born three years, and it is interesting if the you think of barack obama being a first-generation american and some call an anchor baby. >> exactly right. >> what do you now know that you did not know at the beginning of the week urvashi? >> well, one of the inkrcredibl stories, was the support of the president of the naacp statewide c

conference dr. william j. barber. >> melissa harris-perry covered it and had him on the show. >> incredible voice for marriage equality and nondiscrimination and for not persecuting different kinds of people. that uncovered story is true across the country. african-american political leaders and civic leaders have been strongly in support of all lgbt rights. >> it is interesting, because i feel that the press is focused on this and wanted to pick this fight of that the african-american versus the gay people, and if you look at the polling, and we talked about how much we wanted to talk about this today and it is overcovered and there is not a huge amount of difference of the black and the white voters an converging to the same point. and david sirota, what do you know now? >> real evidence that the american politics on these issues can change, and i know that from our own state legislature in colorado. we are having a civil unions fight, and the speaker shut down the entire legislature because he did not want to allow a vote

on legalizing civil unions. the reason it got to the floor is because congressman caroline musgrave to ban discrimination and leader of the anti-gay le leader cast a vote for civil unions to bring it to the floor. so if her staffer can vote for civil unions, then this is changing. >> and that is a great thing to know. for all of my panel, i appreciate your being here. thanks for getting up "up" and thanks for joining us for "up" and join us sunday morning at 8:00 how the mommy wars are playing out in the presidential race and our culture.

the creator of the vagina monologues eve ensler and katy roiphe will be joining us. you can sign up for the chat and also see me live for my new book, and check out "twilight of the elites" on the next appearance. coming up next is melissa harris-perry. what do you have for us today? >> hello, chris, and my nation editor david, and everybody else, too. and we will push back on the gop backlash and whether they are making themselves more and more irrelevant because of their behavior about this. we are also going to have arlen specter on to talk about the death of moderation in our current government both at the national level, the congressional level, but also the state level, and then you and i perhaps as parents are on the same wavelength, and we are going to talk about "where the wild things are" and the citizen

education we learned from this text. >> amazing, amazing book. and arlen specter, nice booking, mhp crew. and i'm so happy that you will be bringing that to you next right after us. we will see you tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m. thanks for getting "up." see you tomorrow. [ sneezes ]

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this morning moderation domination, and the action reaction. what happens when extremism goes too far? plus occupy this and analyze that. the 99% are back. but do they know what they want? and a tribute to the wild things of our childhoods and imaginations, but first the