the trayvon martin case has nothing to do with george zimmerman. and plus a billion here and there, and how the banks can lose $5 billion and still act like it is not real money. and political agitators like fred davis need to back up off of my church and get it through your heads, the after can american church is not your political wedge. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. with the negative ity of the republican primary over, you may feel like something is missing from the daily political diet, but never fear, because the season of dirty attacks is upon us, so get the swift voting selves ready for the defeat of barack obama hussein obama, and the ricketts' plan to end him.

this was a strategy by joe ricketts the owner of the chicago cubs. what is the big idea? to align barack obama with the potentially damaging comments of reverend jeremiah wright. that is new. full disclosure, i attended the trinity church of christ while it was pastored by reverend wright when i lived in chicago. and i also once was paid by td bank which is the bank that funded the church of jeremiah wright. and the world is about to understand jeremiah wright, and understand his influence on barack obama, and he is truly the elephant in the room. why do they think this will work? go to page 8, the abe lincoln

has appeared as a hyperpartisan and hyperpolitician with a little bit of the trimmer in him. and this is properly explained should have an impact on the elusive independent who does not pay close attention but knows things are bad and could get worse seriously, and no worries of being charged here with racial bias, because on page 41, they covered that. they will include an extremely literate conservative african-american in the spokesman group, and our recommendations is larry elder a prominent talk radio show host in talk radio in california and he immediately understood and got it. and so did elder and ricketts l along with the leaked plan. the super pac worked quickly to distance from the plan. joe ricketts say he is not the

arthur or the so-called rickett' plan. not only was it one of several submitted by third party vendor, but reflects an approach to politics that mr. joe ricketts does not accept, and it is only meant for a suggestion of a direction to take. mitt romney was not far behind him in disavowing the proposal. >> on the aircraft this morning i was asked about someone here whether i had seen "the new york times" article with regard to a pac that was presumably being fo formed to attack president obama and if i had a reaction it to, i had not seen the article at that point. i read the article on the aircraft. as i read the article, i want to make it very clear i repudiate that effort. i think it is the wrong course for a pac or a campaign. i hope that our campaigns can

respecttively be about the future and about issues and about a vision for america. >> so, romney has made his position clear. but i'm not convinced and here is why. it seems thatm some of president obama's opponents are showing a lot of interest in using the black church as a weapon in the upcoming election. last week it was the constant speculation that president obama's public support of marriage equality would send the black voters shopping for a new candidate because of the religious beliefs. so far polls show no exodus of black voters from the president, and heck, he has rappers and boxers standing up for same-sex marriage. and the defeat obama memo makes it clear that one group was contending to use one specific black church, trinity, as a political weapon, but the strategists seem so out of touch with reality. it has been four years since reverend wright became a household name, but they have no idea about the historiesk belief belie beliefs, practices or contributions of the black liberation theology tradition

that he preaches. so i figured if we are going to be talking about the black church in 2012, then let's start by actually knowing what we are talking about. with me to delve into the politics of pulpits and pews is reverend otis moss the current senior pastor of trinity united church of christ in chicago, and also dwight haw kins who is the professor of the divinity school and also a member of the trinity church of christ. >> thank you, melissa. >> reverend moss, i want to start with you, because you are reverend wright's successor, and you are now the senior pastor at trinity united churp of christ, and you have made news twice this week both for your stance on same-sex marriage in the days following president obama's stance, and also of course because trinity has now found its way back into the news. start just by telling me a little bit about trinity and trinity's position on issues of human and civil equality. >> well, first i want to thank

you for allowing me to be on the show, and how tragic it is that we are back in the news as a result of a super pac that focuses on fear and not inspiring people to talk about the issues such taas the e koco and the i.d. laws and the prison laws, and restoring the brilliant legacy of a man who served for 36 years on the south side of chicago, dr. jeremiah wright. we are a church that believes in the liberation of the community and a church that believes in jesus christ as our saver and also a church built housing for the seniors and head start for the children and hiv programs, and along with serving 2,000 students in the chicago neighborhood who are the first time to go to college to prepare them to not only be gate scholars, but to understand what it takes to go to college. we have revitalized the south side of chicago and because of the work of dr. wright, and the founder kenneth smith, and because of the brilliance of william sheers an william

jamerson, and all previous ministers, they have laid a foundation for a model church of what it means to be a liberating church that recognizes the savior jesus christ. >> reverend moss, i so appreciate, and dwight, i want to come to you, because you are a long time member of the church, but also a scholar and theologian specifically of the liberation theology and we heard reverend moss describe the work of the church in the interests of the liberation of the community, but help folks who are listening to understand, and it has been four years since we first heard from reverend wright, but help folks to understand the long sort of political and historical context in just a few minutes of how sort of trinity fits into a longer story of black liberation theology. >> yeah, again, and thanks for the invitation, because it is great to be here. a long follower of your program. >> thank you. >> and black follower theology simply put focus on the tradition of christianity, and

that is the theology part, and the liberation part speaks to the central part of jesus to help those who are locked out and those who suffer and to help liberate them, and the black part is how does theology and liberation reveal itself in african-american culture, and that is what is basically the threatening point there, and very much rooted in the christian tradition. the black american emphasis on liberation and justice has a long connection to the presence of black people in slavery and how the church was central to that struggle, but specifically the phrase black liberation theology emerges in the 1960s and the central question there was, is it possible to be a follower of jesus christ and at the same time embrace african-american culture and that is to say can i be black and christian? a lot of churches in that period particular particularly in the north inner cities were trying to grapple with the issues and not just negro and christian, but black

and christian. so trinity is one of the churches that responded to the question by saying that we are not going to go to the suburb, and we will root ourselves in christ, and root ourselves in the community and root ourselves in culture. >> and reverend moss, i want to come back to you for a moment, because it feels to me like that aspect of it that professor hopkins was clarifying for us, this notion of the connection of blackness and theology is part of what gave a lot of folks anxiety, and it soo ems to be -- it seems to be the thing that folks think they can use as a political wedge here. what are they missing of how that is understood within trinity, itself, and how are you feeling in the south side of chicago about being back in the news? >> well, of course, we don't want to be back in the news at that level, but at the same time it serves as an opportunity to speak of what we truly believe in. there is no difference of the africanity,and as someone who is reformed german, and as someone who is irish catholic can be unashame and unapologetic about

being irish catholic and the same as a korean presbyterian. we at the trinity church of christ believes that god has developed us, and that we love who we are, and we serve the savior to be unashame and unapologetic where we come from and also the god we serve. that is how we root that. >> i want to hold you right there, because we are going to bring in some more voice s ts oe conversation and i want to go back to look after we come back at after the break of some of the sermons of reverend wright that have been frankenbited in the news, and try to delve into it more, but as we go to the break, i want to note that we lost a great voice in donna summer, the first lady of disco. we will fill the show with as much of donna's legacy as we can. so don't go away, and much more on this. ♪ le so let's dance the last

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so using reverend jeremiah wright as a tool against president obama might have seemed like a good idea in the beginnings, but then reality set in and the republicans could not distance fast enough. could this move be the worst thing for the gop? as word focussed on the former pastor, does that leave open the door to ask questions about what happens inside of mitt romney's church? and this is where jeremiah wright, and senior pastor dwight hopkins and joining them at the table is katrina and also

wearing a hat is the figure to be embracing the metro sexual bram husse abraham lincoln, barack hussein obama. let's listen to what came out in 2008. >> they give them prisons and gives them the three-strike law and wants us to sing "god bless america" no, no, no. not "god bless america" but "god damn america" because it is in the bible for damning people, and treating people who are less than human, and god damn america

to act like she is supreme. >> dwight, that feels to me very clearly out of the black liberation theology that says that inequality is sin and the sin is not personal things, but the sin is the structural questions and it isn't sort of americans who need to be rooting out the individual sin, but it is the nation, itself, who needs to confront the sin of racism, and that what i heard when i hear that, but somehow it turns politically into just "god damn america." >> yes. people are confusing two things. when there is a political debate about the facticity or the relevance of the examples of what he believes that the u.s. government has done, but there is a point where he literally points to the bible, and there as a theologian, it is clear that the bible is a prophetic bible, and it says that in there that yahweh god will damn israel

to bring back resources to serve as a model for the world as he points to the world. when he points to the bible, it is theological and indisputable as a person of faith that it is prophetic in the yahweh of god, and it is to liberate the poor and those oppressed and that is is the public pronounce oment of jesus christ, and then finally when jesus talks about one way to get to heaven and there is only one passage where jesus gives the pathway to heaven and it is not to build a prosperity church, but it says for the christians to serve the poor, and help those in prisons and give water to those who thirst and visit the widow. and those who are not feel that way are not interpreting the bible the correct way. >> and i want to engage in the theological question here since it came back out, and whoa, wait

a minute, we cannot assume that always talking about jeremiah wright is politically bad, because there is a narrative there and what we have heard from dwight hopkin, the theologi theologian, and the responsibility is to help those are on the bottom. >> and those in prison and in the industrial complex, but melissa, we are sitting on a show that is en lilightened and engaging intelligent people in an intelligent conversation and you know what the media e kos fear is like. this video when it appeared the loop, the loop, and it was ugly how it was useded, manipulate and abused. so i think that needs to be factored in, because it is very hard in this media system that we live in to get through the core points that you have just made, and that reverend wright is making in that talk, and we live with cesspool politics which is getting worse with the

deluge of the money, this polluted money that is using this kind of now going to bring back this loop in the ugliest way and the hope is that we, organized people, can speak with some organized spell jeintellig about what really matters for the country in the trouble that reverend wright spoke of and needs some liberation from the problems afflicting us. >> reverend moss, back to you and obviously since you were occupying the pulpit where there is so much scrutiny and as you are preaching from the pulpit, does it impact for you how you actual actually approach a sunday morn org a sunday evening? >> no, not at all. every sunday that i preach specifically focusing on the love and the justice that comes through not only bib lickly and what jesus christ calls to us do to speak prophetically of the ministry to speak love and justice and love without justice

is sentimentality, and love without justice is naked brutality and when you marry love and justice together, you produce twins, liberation and transformation, and that is what the church is called to do. >> i have to ask one more question before break, elon, anyone cooler to hang out on the planet than the metrosexual abe linco lincoln? under what terms is this a slur? >> well, it is a slur when it is specifically trying to get somebody to paint what the metrosexual and obviously a swipe at gay, and black, we know that is always problematic, and abe lincoln with the civil rights thing, and cop on, we put them together, and that should scare people in general, and why they are bringing out the whole reverend wright thing here, and it is hilarious that we are discussing reverend wright four years later and ridiculous to have this conversation and you are being very, very smart about it, and that is not the point. the point was to put on a scary

black dude on television and say, remember the scary black dude, well, he is still scary, and you want him? scary black dude? we have to get him out of the office. that is is the major point of this. and all of this lovely talk is beautiful, but it is about the scary black dude. >> and all abe lincoln did was to save the union, and i want to talk about what i make of the trayvon martin case, and more metrosexual abe lincoln talk. (female announcer) most life insurance companies look at you and just see a policy.

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i'm back with reverend otis moss of the trinity united church of crist, and katrina van heubel and dwight hophopkin.

is the leak the document? i want to believe it was not a strategy, but is the leak the story? >> well, it is the reveal that we knew the money that would pour into the election fused with the cesspool politics and amplifying an ugliness that is part of the politics and that is to me the meaning and the revelation of the leak. but it is tricky and insidious, because reverend wright is now injected back through the leak even though we won't see the ad campaign, he is back in there and not just mitt romney on hannity a few months ago saying well shgs, i don't know about reverend wright, but i know that president obama may not be as christian as this country needs and then says a few hours later, i don't know what i said, but i stand by what i said. >> and so that is the story. >> and str story of the leak becomes the story. >> and reverend moss, i want to

give you the last word here. and tell us what we should know about what trinity will be doing in 2012. >> well, trinity will be focusing specifically getting out the vote. that is why i wrote an open letter to other clergy who had some issues in reference the president's stand and in reference to marriage equality saying that the marriage is not under attack by the president's words, but as men aviewed women and children as chattel and also as the high economy has begun to frame gay and lesbian people as the problem. the constitution says that we are to support and give liberty to all. trinity will be focused on getting out the vote, and prison industrial complex, and voter i.d. laws and to ensure that we have a future for our children. >> thank you, reverend moss. thank you for joining us from

chicago, and give my love to the south side. >> i will. >> and the rest offous, thank you store staying with us, and the war waged in the halls of congress. today, we recognize malcolm x as it is the civil right's birthday. my friend died three days before the most anticipated work of his career. "malcolm x" which won a pulitzer prize winning book, and raises questions about his assassination. and coming up, how congress left women in the dust, again. don't go away. [ male announcer ] what's in your energy drink? ♪ power surge, let it blow your mind. [ male announcer ] for fruits, veggies and natural green tea energy... new v8 v-fusion plus energy. could've had a v8.

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and the laws like the violence against women act signed into law by president clinton in 1994 were pass with the blessings of both side os of aisle, and women of everywhere rejoiced for the good. and now the violence against women's act has been the latest polarized act, and the law could hurt those it originally intended to protect. the republican-controlled house stripped the act, and passed a weakerer bill that would leave some of the most vulnerable women even more exposed. still here around the table, katrina, elon james white, and joining them is francesca desoto, and nick gillespie chief and editor of milwaukee.com, and also a survivor of rape and

assault, and dena smith who is the president of vawa, and it has been part of the law for two decades and why it is not passing? >> it is pathetic, melissa. i wish i was theret at the table with you. it is tipped towards the accusers. what happened on the floor of the house is i talked about when i was raped and before the rape shield laws or before the prosecutors really looked at the whole pattern of institution i will say of victimization. i went to court and instead of prosecuting my rapist, you know, they talked and what i had on, and how i was dressed and the fact that i had vol untarily gotten into his car, and, you know, that i had had a baby out

of wedlock, and it seemed with this bill that we were passing that we were sort of retreating, backsliding back into that. and the case of immigrant women, the preponderance of support went towards their abusers, and the victims actually were put into the position to where they had to prove they were being victims before they were going to be provided any services. lgbt women, they just put gender-neutral language in the bill. yeah, it is as this is asexual people who are being vick ttimi and of course, native american women had to go to federal court so they would be hundreds of miles away from support, and basically not helping them at all. >> thank you, because you have laid out a lot of that, and we did extend an invitation to the republican congresswoman sandy

adams who is the coauthor of the republican bill, and she is also a survivor of domestic violence herself, and she was unable to join us due to a scheduling conflict, but congresswoman moore laid out the fundamental questions of the versions of the bill r and yes, the language of neutrality, but does neutrality actually end up leaving out or lelting the folks fall through the cracks? h. >> absolutely. the one provision about the immigrants, and we have to separate it out into a couple of sections so that it hurts authorized immigrants is that the women who have married a u.s. citizen, and waiting for the permanent residency, and during the case their immigration paperwork is halted and there used to be a provision for self-petitioning, meaning if i'm abused i can have recourse and go back to start the process, and now they bring the abuser back into it, and get the unauthorized recourse, and that

started in 2008 with the u-visa. if i'm a farm worker and my foreman is sexually a abusing me, i can go to get the visa, but now it is a lot more difficult to get, and if you get that u-visa, you are not eligible for permanent rez de e residence, and we are talking about months and months of waiting. and is that possible. >> to me, there is a cruelty here underlying this. it is cruelty and a census statement coming out that we are a minority, and yet the house puts out this bill to exclude the provisions for the native americans, and lgbt individuals, and the cruelty of living in times of economic crisis which have already hurt women and abused women, and not that the economic crisis leads directly to the domestic violence, but there is no question in times of economic stress and family

unemployment, you will see more incidents. >> because them fa is will lose their housing, and they move into a smaller apartment, and all kinds of stressors that create that. >> well, these women are pressured that if i tell on my foreman and i tell on my fore n foreman, i will be fired and deport and so you are less likely to report the abuse. >> give the republicans credit that it is no longer just a war on women, but it is just the poor and victimized women. so it is like a game of republican policy or souper villain policy, because it sounds about the same. we are like, well, we are not going to protect the immigrant women or the lgbt or whatever, and we don't like the wording on that, and we will do this now. >> i don't have a, and certainly

no interest in defending republicans, but i think that it is also worth looking at this as a political, you know a political wrangle in an election season, and what not, and most of the provisions have been extended while the new authorization is being worked out. i'm all for open borders, and i'm all for equal treatment of anybody in the u.s. whether they are a citizen or resident, but it is, you know, not going to help anything by deto label peos demons or moving to super cruelty, and the larger message of the war on women is misguided, because oftentimes, it ends up taking legitimate differences of opinion, and who should pay for what into a rea of where you are saying that if you ever deny any woman anywhere cheap contraception or contraception, you are against women and against reproductive freedom. t the broader we make this conversation, the more kind of unreal it becomes. >> and i hear you on that, like for example, and congresswoman

moore, i, too, am a survivor of sexual assault and none of us believe that the government law in the moment of the assault would have protected us from the assault occurring, and it is not a belief in the magical government, but there is a sense that, nick, in what you were saying and congresswoman what you were saying that the fact is that what the government can help us to do is to find some pathways to justice on the other side of a n assault and on the other side which government can't necessarily protect us from. >> you are exactly right, melissa. i did the right thing. i went to the hospital. they did the rape kit. i went to court. you know, it took some bravery and courage to go to court to tell the story in public and only to be demonized in court, and there was a motion to acquit, which i submitted because we feared that the bill in the current form that we could petition for women of

color, but all women. we tried to strengthen the privacy, and women are more at risk right after they decide to leave their abusers and confidentiality immediately is extremely important. we feel that this bill weakened it so much so that the abusers are contacted or brought into the equation at a point in time at which the women need services before their abusers are notified. and with respect to the other comment, that, you know, it is too much to call this a war on women, i would submit that it is not on the topic, melissa, but when you look at medicare, medicaid, pell grant, food stamps, women, 2/3 of the adults who use the services are women. it is not just contraception, but it is all of the things that have been under attack, and the p programs that by far benefit adult women. more than men. >> and this is what i am talking about, so you are bringing up

medicare suddenly as the case of war against women and both the republicans and the democrats -- >> and you brought it up, sir. you did. >> well, what i am saying is that there are massive amounts of money spent on medicare, and even if you take paul ryan's fever dream of making money by killing old people in the year 2050 when the vouchers kick in, we spend so much money on the medicare irrespective of the demonstrated need on the part of seener yors a seniors and people under 50 are screwed royalty to pay for medicare which is not going to be there for them and it should not be there for people who are wealthy now. >> and i don't know -- >> i don't want to go into the demonization with you, but let me use two other ds, decency and dignity. we are listening to representative moore who has had a real life experience, and we sit back to policy and real lives in the balance at stake, and overarching much of this is

that you are witnessing a glorious era, and it was not. on the other hand, there is ale roing back of the civilizational advances of this country, and some of that has to do with the protection and the social civil protection of women. >> yep. >> we are witnessing some of it. >> and exactly on, that i want to talk about how we are seeing that rollback and particularly in the case of washington, d.c. and my friend, it is time to free d.c., because one member of congress was barred from even speaking on the issue of women's repro d reproductive rights in front of her own constituents. i want to give a nod to chuck brown, the go-go of music. our fedoras are off to you, chuck brown. >> give me the bridge now. ♪ i feel like busting loose ntud to being a different kind of communications company.

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republican-led state legislatures make decision about women's rights, they can say that they represent the interests of the women who vote for them, but this week, some members of congress have dropped the pretense that any women should have involvement in the reproductive choice, because ki say with 100% certainty that not one single washington female representative voted for representative trent franks who voted for no reproductive rights after 20 weeks of conception. and eleanor holmes norton is not allowed to vote, but she can speak on one of the house subcommittees that is considering the votes of constitutional rights and reproductive rights all in one swoop.

and when she asked to speak on behalf of her constituency, the answer was no. still with me is elon james white, and victoria defrancisco soto, and james white, and so people believe in governs close to home, and so this representative from arizona is saying i will tell you people of d.c. how to govern this issue. >> of course, they won't let delegate norton speak, because she is so fabulous and fiesty. they talk the talk, but won't walk the walk. the bigger picture is a continual assault, and in the big scheme of things, this is to democrats' favor, because as we are closer to november, we have all of the pieces of the puzzle that reinforce and mobilize women to come out to the polls. >> and to the shame of the nation is that d.c. is not a state yet. i mean, that is the larger framework in which you see a voice disenfranchised and people

disenfranchised and a city which should have been many years ago, but there is a lot of horse trading around that, and both parties have played games, but they should have a voice. eleanor holmes norton should have a voice. >> well, it is sometimes worthy of reminding people that people who live in the district of columbia do not have a voice in the federal government, but they do however pay taxes to the government. >> and to complicate it, students trapped in the d.c. public school system get more money spent per student than any other school district in the country, and they have the worst schools, sop perhaps if we are going to be talking about abortion and choice, it is worth talking about how do you proliferate choice throughout the decisions that matter most the people. i'm an absolute supporter of abortion rights and that the government should not pay for it, because it is a divisive issue, but how do we bring choice to people across the board? that is extremely important in

d.c. and also throughout the country. >> and where are the women? we were talking before to a break that 2010 was the year of the republican woman, and nine new republicans went to the house, and democratic women lost seats, and -- >> women overall lost seats for the first time since 1970s. >> and maybe not a single woman governor after this round. >> and democratic governor. >> democratic governor. >> don't equate democrats and women -- >> well with, to be fair, those have stood tall in the fundamental protections. >> well, the -- >> economic and civil hope. >> and we were talking about abortion, and does everybody believe that late term abortion should be legal and at what point does that end? those are the types of issues that are going to start coming up. >> what we know about the late term abortion after 20 weeks is that it is quite rare and 9 of 10 abortions occur before the

first trimester and the fact is that most people who make that choice in late term is making the choice because of the viability of the pregnancy and or the health and the life of the mother. the idea that we would intervene, and that we would think of women in that way -- >> i would also say, that is the issue here, because there is a broad consensus around the country that most abortions and the time frame of which most abortions take place that should be legal and majority of the americans believe that and that is not rolled back. >> oh, but it is. it is. in terms of the access and in terms of the access it absolute -- and the fact that you can't if you live in mississippi, there is not a place where one can go to actually get them, so not even the power to restrict. >> it may not be illegal, but it is a real reality. >> and this is also where we can agree that abortion and again i say that i'm an absolute supporter of the absolute abortion rights and it is a divisive issue especially closer to tend of the pregnancy period, it is time for the groups to

step up to make sure that the groups are available and services are available, and you won't get that through. >> i am sorry that we did not get back to you congresswoman gwen moore, but thank you for the work in the u.s. congress. >> thank you. >> and coming up president obama is meeting with leaders of the world's richest countries in camp david right now for a g-8 summit, and top of the agenda is an economic crisis in europe that could engulf us here in the united states, and what they are saying about the possibility of a apocalypse, and the latest on trayvon martin as soon as we get back. ♪[music plays] ♪[music plays] purina one beyond. food for your cat or dog.

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two days ago special prosecutor angela cory renewed national attention to the trial of george zimmerman when she made important evidence of the case public. surveillance of trayvon martin in the hoodie buying tea and skittles at the convenient store, and photos of george

zimmerman's swollen nose shortly after he shot and killed trayvon, and the evidence of the knicks and the cuts and blood on the back of the head. we learned that the skin on trayvon's knuckles was also broken. and we learned that trayvon had traces of thc, marijuana's psycho part of marijuana in his blood. and so this seems that the assail lent can kill you if you feel threatening, so you can demonize him, and make him violent through the caricature of a drug user. and the wounds on the back of trayvon's head seem to be evidence of struggle, and for some, this struggle is enough to justify zimmerman's deadly actions, but remember, we don't know how the physical altercation began, but what we do know is that trayvon was an

unarm unarmed teenager facing an armed stranger on a dark street. trayvon had every right to feel that he was threatened and that he needed to stand his ground. but this is not the time to ajude kate a legal case, because we have a system for that and the first part of the movement that arose after trayvon's death was to make sure that system went into action. the second part is to make sure that we do not lose sight of the bigger picture, regardless of the facts of this one case, there is a problem of racial profiling in this cub tountry, regardless of the facts of this one case, criminal justice is applied differently in the country depending on the race of the assailant and the victim. we are guard to the facts of this case, too many americans die as a result of gun violence, and too many that could be avoided by gun legislation that does not violate constitutional norms. this week shows us the inherent risks of using a single case to

debate the innocence or the guilt of the individual players is a poor substitute for meaningful, investigation of how too many of to public policies deepen and enhance long-standing inequalities. this week, i cringed about how this new evidence might be used to implicate trayvon in his own murder. i was reminded of the lyrics to ella's song written for a civil rights leader ella baker. we who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes, until the killing of black men, black mother's sons is as important as the killing of white men, white mother's sons. coming up, if you have been watching the news on the euro this week, you might want to run for the hills. is our own economy really going to heck in a hand basket? maybe. ezra klein, thank goodness is here to help me answer that question. everything can cost upwards of...[ whistles ] i did not want to think about that. relax, relax, relax. look at me, look at me.

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welcome back. this morning the world's most

influential leaders are meeting at camp david for the annual g-8 summit. just moments ago president obama concluded his opening remarks to the table that included the newly elected french president francois hollande and japan's prime minister, and also realizing that some of the economy has up ended many of his colleague's careers. >> we will spend a lot of time on the economic issues and the eurozone is obviously going to be one topic, and all of us are absolu absolutely committed to making sure that both growth and stability and fiscal consolidation are part of an overall package that all of us have to pursue. >> with rhetoric on fire these days the back-to-back summits

from the g-8 to the nato meeting tomorrow in chicago will be clearly dominated by the eurozone crisis. this weekle a loan we have seen upheaval in greece result in slow motion run on the banks and the downgrading of dozens of banks in italy and spain putting those nations on notice all while tens of thousands of europeans have been taking to the streets to protest record unemployment and severe austerity measures so have the apock lists come to europe, and it is a more extreme version of our financial picture? these are the moments when i say, please, god, get me ezra. to help me answer these questions is the wonk, himself, ezra klein, a msnbc contributor, and also joining us is edward gillespie, and christina defrancisco soto. and paul says it is the

apocalypse, but it is true? >> well, it is not untrue, but it is not true yet. the wavy been trying to think about this is that europe is in the middle of a bank run and that investors and ordinary greeks are trying to decide if greek banks can pay them back and if it can't, and if greece goes down, the question is then, does it spread to portugal and spain and italy and the problem is that in order to stop a bank run, you have to do big things. in thun ki trshgs is country wee fdic which insures every deposit we put into the bank. >> up to $200,000. >> well, not all of it, but what we would put in the bank. yes, i'm with you. >> that has worked because ordinary people know that even if the bank has the problem, they will get the money back, but the problem is that is europe ever going to be able to come to a comprehensive solution? we talk too much about the growth as, and we think of nit

this country as stimulus, and over there if they do some sort of stimulus, but what you need to be willing to have is the european central bank to come in to put in a backstop and krugman is eloquent on this point to create an amount of inflation that the german core is not happy with having. that is the key. >> and for good reason. >> and well, we can argue if it is for good reason. >> and inflation is not a good thing. >> well, inflation is sometimes a good thing. >> and the dream of central bankers everywhere to get a little inflation and money is cheaper and the debt goes down and never works that way. inflation gets out of control. >> what do you mean, it never works out that way, but of course it works out that way sometimes. >> germany has still strong associations with the '20s and the post-war era and inflation was not able to be controlled until the central bank go up to interest rates of 20%, and the government spending came under control. >> the longer the crisis in europe persists, the greater the

ethnic bigotry and the rise of nationalism, but step back for a moment, because there is a larger point to be made here if i could. austerity has failed. it has failed in europe. we are witnessing britain which controls its own currency, and faring worse than the great depression. debt is a greater ratio of gdp than it was before the austerity programs. >> and based on austerity. >> and slashing spending. >> and of course, has e england -- >> and to give bond -- >> has england cut spending? no sh no, no, it has not. >> we are talking about nominal inflation? >> no, it is not nominal inflation, and what we are saying is that -- >> austerity does have to do with increases, but it is macro flows and one thing that europe has not done is to create euro bonds and every single country is on their own. in america the way we finance this is that all of the states have the backing of the treasure which is how we deal with thing is to equalize the risk across

and that is short of inflation to be the end game and as of yet germany is not willing to go. >> and wait a sec. here is what i want to make sure we are doing, because for a lot of folks watching and as we were trying to wrap our heads around this, and we started to say inflationary margins and folks just tune, so i want to be sure that we are clear about how human lives are impacted and how sort of how what we are talking about matters on the ground, so when we look for example at moody's downgrading the bank s in spain, and in italy, right, i want to know specifically what does the downgrade of those banks in spain and italy mean for those nations? what should those nations now be thinking about and what does it mean for us who, ourself, experienced a downgrade recently. >> what will happen in the states is somebody in utah who is a state that exports the most to europe. folks in europe are downgraded and, and they cannot buy as much, so when we talk about in 2012 how it affects us, states

are going to go down, and certain states and not across the board. certain states more than others, but we will see a tangible effect across the pond. >> and there is another lesson to step back. why should we, and i felt that the nation we did instead of a dow jones index we did a doug jones index, and look at it through the prism of people. spain has youth unemployment of 50%, and inflation is -- and my point is that let me draw a lesson i think for 2012 for president obama if i could. i think that the lesson is that he wisely resisted too much austerity, maybe because of the tea party and others could not agree on the debt deal, but at a record low interest rate time, and record low interest times to promote job creation, and housing relief and use the money to invest in this country, and i think that is a plan for this country that all sides should get on at a moment as i said record low interest rates and no threat of inflation. >> but we are talking and we have politicians in the country,

and right now we are talking about a 2012 election where the republicans are saying we want to go from spending $3.8 trillion this year to spending $4.9 trillion in ten years, every year. the democrats under obama say, well, we want to spend $5.8 trillion in ten years, and there is no austerity. england did not cut spending, and england has increased spending in the last budget cycle and increased taxes. when we talk about austerity most people believe we slash spending and cut taxes or raise the taxes, but that is not what is happening in most of europe and not all of the countries, but there have been massive tax increases across the countries, and either slight or serious increases in spending like in fran france, and hollandz going to raise taxes and spending, and that is why europe is in the toilet, because they have an unreal and unsustainable economic model where they are going to keep spending and keep taxing and then the gap between revenue and outlays is gone. >> this is not quite right on a

couple of levels. one, the most troubled countries in europe have clearly cut spending and raised taxes. portugal and ireland. >> and that has not worked. >> wait a second, nick. before the crisis, spain and italy had the structural defi t deficits going down, and one thing that misses is that we have had an helenization of the crisis, and greece was in really, really bad shape and very irresponsible and others weren't and the economy collapsed under them, and the point of the austerity and one thing that gets missed is that it is about tax increases, and people should not miss it at all, but it is operating against the baseline and what you normally do and what orthodox economy would tell you to do is that when the economy is collapsing, you need to spend more and not keep the debt down. >> that is not the -- >> yes, it is orthodox economics and so that is what they have not done, and they have not been able to do that. >> and then, wait, you do agree that england did not cut spending? because england is typically

used as the poster child. >> well, i want to go back to the tax question for a moment, because my understanding is two piec pieces, one is what tax law says that the tax rate is and the other piece is actual compliance. and the other piece of the understanding is of what is going on in the eurozone question is that greece and italy have low tax compliance rates. in other words, people are not paying the taxes. this is actually part of the anxiety that places like germany that have high tax compliance rates have about the entire notion of how this eurozone will work, and that as the eurozone was created, it had a lot of clarity about the democratic rules on the political side, but much less clarity about how the economic norms, the norms for example of paying one's taxes should be part of this broader european zone. >> and austerity is a medicine. you have to dole it out. we saw what happened in latin america years ago when they went in with strict reforms and people rebelled. we are seeing it in europe now. austerity is needed, but to a

certain extent. certain extent. >> and at the moment it is like the countries are -- >> shared sacrifices. >> and i would argue, melissa, with that, but a it is a mantra shared sacrifices, but a lot of people did not share in the boondoggles that we have seen. but we are looking at the patience, and like you start leaching them in the process of slow recovery. even, you know, nick has the strong point of view, and ezra has strong points of information and point of view -- >> and so i don't have information? >> well, i'm trying to be diplomatic, but even the imf, not known as a bastion of keynesianism is deeply worried about what will happen to strangling a recovery slowly beginning, and germany is going to play a critical role and france to a certain extent, but you are right in the lack of clarity about the eurozone. >> we are not done, and stay right there, because we will stay on the economy, but up next, we will talk about how this caught on moment camera actually tells us something

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yes, the debt ceiling debates are back. speaker john boehner drew a new line in the sand this week saying he would not allow an increase in the debt ceiling without substantial spending cut, and this is my idea of what is in store. but what you are watching now is a scientist with the north carolina wildlife resource commission trying to relocate a wayward alligator. the scientist is fine now by the way, but it is also an allegory for the speaker who should be forewarned that bringing up the

debt ceiling before the debate could end up biting him in the rear. joining me to talk about the debt debate is ezra klein, and katrina, and nick gillespie of reason.com, and victoria defrancesco soto. we start here talking about europe, and the position that europe finds itself in, and victor victoria, you were talking about the interconnectiveness, but then the debt ceiling showed back up here and i began to wonder if there is a european crisis happening at this level, and are we the next greece? are we the next group that will be facing it? >> we are not greece. we should always say that we control our own currency, and we are a tested economy, and the strongest economy in the world, and we have the cheapest treasury debt in the world, and the safest investment in the world, and with renot greece or europe. in conversations of the europe, we are too deep into the economic, because they are facing a deep crisis. the eurozone began in 1999 and

greece joined in 2001, and what investors are terrified is that they cannot survive and that the political system does not work. we have no analog here, but the closest thing we do have is that if congress begins and the polarization of congress gets to the point where they are inducing financial crises like deciding to default on the debt which we have not decided to do for the history of the united states, that would be terrifying to the the markets because on small levels of the eurozone it saying that something that you never thought was true about the american political system is true, that it does not work the way you thought it did, and you need to change how much risk you think there is in it. >> and so to the extent that we behave as a broken nation, we can influence the breaking of the nation? >> it is also true that investment companies and what not and people who rate bonds when the government is incapable of following its own plans and the spending plans and reducing the spending or the reducing the debt, they start to say, you know what, i will charge you

more to lend or borrow money from you and that happens, and then if inflation comes in and kicks in interest rates go up. this is part of the problem. katrina, you are saying it is a great time to buy the debt, because it is cheap, but what happens in five years or ten years if the interest rates triple or go back to the historic average as opposed to being low right now? you will be stuck with massive interest payments. >> and we are with amnesia of how we got into this with two unfunded wars. >> and the bush -- >> and i want to show you a actual pie chart about what were the drives of -- and we are big fans of the pie charts so there are debt drivers here that are not about the president obama spending. >> absolutely right. >> these are spending that happened certainly under bush, but part of it is driven. >> and you know, i can identify the source of the chart, it is a pew chart. >> and the key here, nick, is

that no one, if we can invest in the country at record low interest rates, the recovery will come. and when the recovery comes, we can return to a different set of priorities, but it seems to me that the talk, and the best deficit reduction in my view is job creation. >> and can we not walk while chewing gum in the country, because very few economists on both sides of the aisle who don't think it is perfect sense to put in place a ten-year deficit reduction plan that is paired with some short term infrastructure investment and possibly mixing in other narratives, but this is not difficult to frontload growth, and backload the debt. >> well, it is proving historically impossible. >> what do you mean? >> well, it is impossible to frontload the spending and backload, and cut the spending, and it is like junkie logic, and give me the drugs now, and i will pay you on tuesday. >> and it is -- >> it is not. >> and deficit reduction and the bills in the '90s were mul

multi-year deficit reductions. >> yes, but they had to do with actual decreasing of the spending and not slowing the races of spending. we are talking and the deficit. >> but i want the ask a question, because it seems to me that part of what is going on is that there are values and goods within the economy and swun deficit reduction and one is managing inflation and one is job creation, and right, different sorts of goods. part of what happens, at least part of what i hear for example in this debate is well, when you say words like deficit or say words like inflation, that they become scary words for listeners for voters who think, well, we can't have inflation or a deficit without actually thinking, why can't we have a deficit and carry a deficit while we create job, and what would be wrong with actually a marginal tax increase for social security not a tax increase at the vast majority of the people would feel, but a tax inkrecrea

that simply said in order to keep social security solvent everybody will pay on all of it? >> there is no silver bullet, and you can't say, if we stick to the austerity we will solve our own problems. we need tax increases, and we need to cut some programs. >> and name a program, because people say that, we need tax increases and cut some programs. >> how about defense. >> defense spending should be cut in half, and we would be safe safer? >> and the house republicans are fighting tooth and nail -- >> and as is obama. >> and john boehner is trying to put forth with the eric cantor a new debt debacle, and there was with the previous the debt -- >> we will stay right in the conversation, because as you say, there is a lot to say. thank you, victoria, for being here today. and i have a $15 million solution to this. and i seriously found it. we can add it to the pile. ♪ i've got the power [ creaking ]

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okay. so we have been talking about ways that america might cut its spending, and i think that i have a small but important way to help out. i know one hurricane katrina survivor who does not deserve the fema funding and should give the money back. what, you didn't think i would say that? hear me out. it is true that hurricane katrina was one of the strongest and the deadliest hurricanes to hit the united states and made landfall three times and killed more than 1,800 people and wiped out entire communities. so, yes, the survivors deserve aid from the government to get back on their feet. but maybe not everyone does. hat's off to harper's magazine for bringi ing beautiful view t my attention, and that is biloxi mississippi housing several buildings including the jefferson davis library. you remember him, right? a man of many accomplishments, jefferson davis is spent mostly for the time he spent as the only president of the confederate states of america,

and you know, during the american civil war and the war that killed over half a million people, and threatened to separate the united states and instigated by the fight to end slavery. yeah, that guy. apparently being president of a short lived non-existent america warrants one getting a library, and when it and the surrounding buildings are destroyed albeit by a devastating natural disaster, it is fema to the rescue. fema, you know the federal emergency management agency, as in federal government, the federal government davis sought to destroy, here is the proposed rendition of the new and tim prov -- the improved library. isn't it beautiful? this is a public assistance award of $17.2 million from the mississippi emergency management agent which obtained $17.2 million for reconstruction

money. of that money, only $62.million ha -- $6.2 million have been used. and actually i'm in construction for the reconstruction of the confederate south, if you know what i mean, but the federal government should not repair and replace a monument to a traitor to the federal government, and i would think that all of the small government mississippi leaders would agree, right? right? right? what does it mean when a giant bank loses a few billion dollars and a group of entrepreneurs in sweatshirts become billionaires off of a social club, maybe it means it is time for more rules and regulations, and we will have more on that when we come back. get back in the game. but don't take his word for it. put bayer advanced aspirin to the test for yourself at fastreliefchallenge.com. got the mirrors all adjusted?

you can see everything ok? just stay off the freeways, all right? i don't want you going out on those yet. mmm-hmm. and just leave your phone in your purse. i don't want you texting, all right? daddy...ok! ok, here you go. be careful. thanks dad. call me -- but not while you're driving. ♪ [ dad ] we knew this day was coming. that's why we bought a subaru. ♪ ♪ [music plays] ♪ [music plays] i would not say i'm into it, but let's see where this goes. [ buzzer ] do you like to travel? i'm all about "free travel," babe. that's what i do. [ buzzer ] balance transfers -- you up for that? well... too soon? [ female announcer ] fortunately,

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get you, but we are back and speaking of the pictures i know that the family vacation photos and the favorite videos of the cats and the personal likes are the likes of stockbrokers now. facebook's favorite offering was raised some $15 billion dollars and that is after the market was reeling from the losses of jpmorgan chase. >> last week jamie dimon said the losses were under $5 billion, but the "wall street journal" said they would exceed $5 billion, and the "wall street journal" will launch an investigation next week. and hey, what about facebook, because it is going to be a place that lets you see if your high school ex got fat. and the jpmorgan is under that

asset, so no reason to overly regulate the markets as dimon and others claim or is it time for more regulation. and if so, how should it be done? with me to answer these questions is the expert panel. ezra, and katrina, and nick and elon james white, founder of this week in blackness.com. ookay. it seems like a lot of money to many, and i guess that maybe perhaps it is not $2 billion a lot of money, but it starts if i'm worrying and thinking of the emotions of the market, this loss does feel like a lot to me. >> look, it is a lot of money. it is not a threatening amount of money. j.p. moredangan does not need a bailout or systemic threat, and they made $19 billion in pure profit in 2011 so people are needing to ask what we trying to learn from this, and the main thing is that jpmorgan were the folks who knew how to manage risks and they came through the financial crisis better than any other bank. and jamie dimon's internal

argument is that, look, there were dumb banks, but don't your their dumb failings that led to the failing of the market. so we do have to have sufficient regulations because even if the smart banks become dumb they don't destroy the economy as happened in a couple of years ago. >> i want to see it in the system of checks and balances. the united states went without serious financial crisis after the new deal shackled that back a little bit. and only after reagan and clinton's deregulation have we seen financial crises conflict the country. and i also think of the head of the dallas federal reserve bank who says, wait a minute, we need to reorganize the banks who control way too much, and the hyperfinancialization con glomer rationconglomeration, and if th

is the smart banker and the smart bank, how many more evidence to restore like to get a volcker rule or glass/stegall which was a good separate the commercial from the investment banking? >> i have to say, and obviously, we disagree. >> yes. >> and look, we can get the people who are the smartest people in the room, and smarter than us even if such olympian geniuses exist, but the only regulation that will work is that the investors are liable for the gains and the losses, and we can have the volcker rule which is 1,000 pages long and the people don't fully understand how it would be or how the regulations would be spelled out. do dodd/frank is a classic to be announced regulation and tells a bunch of people to come back in a while with thousands of pages of regulation, and -- wait, wait, and that -- no, no, it does. it does, because -- >> the lobbyists made it more

complex than it needed to be. >> but it always happens that way, and what i am saying is that this is not a story. jpmorgan losing a bunch of its own money is not a story. the only reason it is a story is because of t.a.r.p. and bank bailouts and now we are worried to bail out every business that does something bad and what we think is bad and we will regulate it and control it because it might bother me. there is a basic regulation in play. >> we can't talk about the separation, right? >> what separation? >> the separation between those who want to take risks with their own assets, and those who take risks under the umbrella. >> they will take your money to make money for themselves if the you use a bank. >> i am talking about a bank and what sort of bank you are and if you are under the protection of the federal government as we talked about the fdic before. >> it is good to say that the only regulation that works is good investors making good regulations. >> now did not say that. i said that they are responsible for the gains, and they keep the gains and they keep their

losses. >> well, we didn't do it, and we did almost crash the entire global financial economy. >> that is because of government interventions. >> that is cray zzy i think. >> no, it is not. >> but strong and the jen shta i tangentionns are bad. and what was good about the glass-steagall and that is not good or the this era of complexity, but it was simple. >> elizabeth warren is valuable to talk about, because her mission at the consumer protection financial board was simplicity, and also that you needed a cop on the financial beat who stood there for families for ordinary citizen, because the banks have so much power in this country. richard durbin once said in a

moment of honesty that the banks own this place, and the volcker rule would not be complex if you didn't have a financial industry spending millions and millions fighting the regulations to make them more complex and we do need checks and balances so that ordinary people don't feel that the system is rigged against them. >> i agree and the thing is that we don't regulate people making good investments, but you have to be liable for the behavior at the individual and the corporate level and that is all. don't invest in banks that do things that you don't like. >> and talk about the individual gain, because for me, i was, and that this sort of story of the american who can come up, and you know be innovative and create something that is that you hold in your hand or click on and become a millionaire. and here facebook gets billions of dollars, and then the next thing we find out is that the new facebook billionaire is prepared to renounce his american citizenship, because he is uninterested in paying taxes on this new wealth.

so, it feels like to me that if there is a sense of everyone liable, there is also, i mean, this is a fundamentally american narrative and about harvard giving a cache to facebook and then it goes on to be what it is, and no sense of collective responsibility or paying back into the system? >> two things. one there is a wonderful group called patriotic millionaires and who want to pay more taxes and contribute to a country, because they know that the interstate and other things contributed to their innovation, and other fac to, btofactors, b feel that is what exposed here is larger than the defriending of america by these two, and by salverin. it is about a tax system that is in desperate need and though we may disagree around the table how, but it in desperate need of reform, and it sounds cliche, but it is so true, because what they are doing is legal, and it should not be legal. >> and one point.

>> you should not be able to do that sorry. >> you are on facebook as we are speaking. >> i might be. >> a lot of what you are saying is theoretical. like it should be, and this is the way should be and this is the way it should come down and this is the way et is supposed to happen, and i feel that the lodge sick not bagic is not hapt people are doing, and what people are completely deciding to decide, oh, i won't be american anyway and i will keep the money which should be wrong. regulation has to happen, because people are not that good of people, all right. regulation has to come in and kind of hold things together a little bit in order for society to continue to move forward, and it is not a bad thing. just for regulation to happen, and yes, you can of regulate obviously, but that is not what -- apparently almost everything that everybody is upset, and oh, too much regulation and too much everywhere. no, there is some needed regulation. >> and this is the fundamental, and maybe this is the kind of

libertarian impulse, because it is the notion of the leviathan that we create the rules to create incentives to keep life from being brutish. >> and you are a political scientist, and hobbs argument is that we find the full eest enforcement of the leviathan, and the full leader and that is anti-liberal whether it is conporary or classic, and let's not go down that route. >> i have made an argument that part of what human beings want is not sort of fair innocence the distribution, but fair innocence the experience of the public space that as we enter the public space, we want to be who we are, and not misrecognized so things like racism, and homophobia and even if there were not structural inequalities that there are and i can do a reading of hobbs that is not about absorption into the state of being the cog and the wheel, and but rather into the

public sphere. >> shouldn't you be happy that facebook is the brilliant case of the third space and not government space or private space, but space that is voluntary, and people go to form new communities, and the idea that savrin. >> i am not mad at facebook. i am totally not mad at facebook. >> but salverin created a great space that we all hang out in. >> and you do not create it on your own, and -- >> that is right, did not contribute to it. >> and the moving the products along an interstate transportation system or along the rail roads built by all of us the fact is that we don't just exist out of nothing and we go to the publicle schools and part of a collective, and the notion that we are on an island is -- >> and the idea of this salverin is something that castro would do. >> i have to lean back on that. you are -- don't do castro, do george will or fred hayek, or

fred rand, but not castro. >> we are going to ask more of what this election will hinge on. stay here, because i want to talk more about what happens with castro right now. i'd love say gar right now. can someone get me one? ♪ looking for some hot stuff this evening ♪ don't go over 20. 1200 calories a day. carbs are bad. carbs are good. the story keeps changing. so i'm not listening... to anyone but myself. i know better nutrition when i see it: great grains. great grains cereal starts whole and stays whole. see the seam? more processed flakes look nothing like natural grains. you can't argue with nutrition you can see. great grains. search great grains and see for yourself. for multi grain flakes that are an excellent source of fiber try great grains banana nut crunch and cranberry almond crunch. [ music plays, record skips ] hi, i'm new ensure clear. clear, huh? my nutritional standards are high. i'm not juice or fancy water, i'm different.

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♪ [ male announcer ] everyone likes a bit of order in their life. virtual wallet helps you get it. keep track of spending, move money with a slide, and use the calendar. all to see your money how you want. ♪ don't look now, but there is something funny going on over there at the bank, george. i have never really seep one, but it has all of the earmarks of being a run. >> yeah, that is how we think about what a run on banks is, but ezra was just saying in the break that the problem now is that the banks are the ones running or potentially the banks are the ones running rather than us doing a run on the bank. >> and we talked about eduardo salverin running to avoid taxes,

but the banks in singapore could be the best place to do business, but that is fine, but they became huge to trade with the financial institutions and make bad trades and they blow up and everything else blows up down the line, so banks that we are not capable of regulating will destroy our financial system, and the regulatory world is very difficult and confusing. >> sarbanes-oxley actually contributed to the fleeing, because they said the regulations arend i will do someplace else. >> so this is the place that is, and we live in the global economic world, and we are deeply intertwined and why we talked about vote europe and facebook at the same time, because we are intertwined. >> and the g-8 leaders are meeting at a time of economic collapse and unprecedented global protest. there is a new politics that is

not going to say, this is, this is. and this idea that regulations so complex, and you can find ways without all of the inputs that want to make it more complex to make it more simple and transparency and disclosure and you won't get rid of a multinational globe. >> well, there is a group called basil, and they do the global financial regulation as and the key regulation is leverage. how much can you borrow on top of the assets, and the one thing that is important about jpmorgan is that they will come out with that which will toughen them, and that is the single most important financial rule in the world, and what they decide on the leverage. >> and it seems that the politics around this is in part a narrative about values, right? so there is a policy question, and really a set of policy questions about what can you actually do, how can you thwart these things out, but another is a far more basic values'

question and you said earlier in the show not to go too far on the war of women, and then i called out castro. >> i was about to tell you that the problem with social security is that it shouldn't exist. so. >> it should be provided for poor americans and not well healed people simply because they are over 65. that is a value statement. >> that is a fundamental question about what we -- >> and different values at this table. i think that is -- >> that is why i'm in the corner. >> and that is why we should expand -- >> what the middle-class and the we wealthy people. >> and what -- >> and you should take -- >> and the distribution of the wealthy. >> and you should take it from the young to give it to the old rich people. >> and melissa is right, whether it is our budget or what happens with the eurozone, budgets are more than raw numbers and they are that, but they are a set of priorities and show the values of a country, and of people. >> and nick, let me make the quick argument for why social

security should not be means tested and it is this, when we have had public policies that are mean tested public policies particularly around poverty, those policies become highly politicized and the group of people who are beneficiaries of them are the most vulnerable, and the least likely to have political access, part of why social security is untouchable in the way that it is, because of the aarp, and the old folks are not a group that is stigmatized in the way that poor people are. so you look at how easy it was to end welfare as we know it, and literally creating food insecurity for american chish w children who are poor and because they are poor have less access and maneuverability. >> and please, social security is not help for poor people. >> noit is for old people. >> i, and never the table is at a place where you will get less out of it and in the dollar for dollar basis from social security that you put in. >> and my mother did not have social security right now and the cost of my household in my

household to support my mother would be extraordinary their. >> and wait, stop. if she is poor, let the government provide a social safety net, and that is fine, and medicaid spending goes up, and if we didn't like the poor, it would not be going up, but do down. >> it is because we created more poor people. >> please. >> we have been talking billions all hour, and in a moment, i want to talk to you about a little girl who raised hundreds of thousands of dollars in a pennies. and we will have a preview first with alex witt. >> i can't wait to meet what's with "weekends with alex witt." >> unemployment has gone down in some critical regions in the past year. the budget crisis in california, how did it get so bad? i will talk with former california governor gray davis and get his perspective. it was supposed to be an historic rocket launch. why did it end in failure? i'll talk with a noted astronaut on why it's so important.

and you remember that movie "the social network"? in light of the facebook stock offering, we'll talk with the man who wrote the book. he has fascinating insights. >> that little girl could probably solve the whole federal deficit. we're going to talk about penny pinching and why it's the most inspiring thing i witnessed this week. my foot soldier is 13 years old. her story is up next. [ male announcer ] what's in your energy drink? ♪

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abraham lincoln may with be one of america's favorite presidents but the currency that bears his face is not one of our favorites. it all depends on your perspective because one group of young philanthropists seized the pennies weighing the rest of us down as a valuable way to lift up their community. since 1991, the penny harvest

program has enlisted compassionate kids between the ages of 4 and 14 to collect pennies and donate the money as grants to community organizations. and they've converted all that pocket change into social change. over the last two decades, penny by penny, children have raised and given away a whopping $8.1 million in grants. but penny harvest encouraging children to be more than just coin collectors. after raising the money, kids research problems in their communities, determine the needs of organizations working to tackle those problems and vote to decide what's most important to them and how to best allocate the grant. i got to see firsthand how they cultivate a new generation of social activists when i met quinn smart, a remarkable and aptly named young woman. at only 13 years old, this seventh-grader is already a four-year penny harvest veteran and has helped to raise more than $200,000 for her community. now, i had the pleasure of being

introduced by quinn last week for the organization that administers penny harvest. i was so moved by quinn's message that young people are uniquely able to make a difference. >> sitting in a room of 8 to 12-year-olds who are brainstorming issues to community issues, you would be amazed the ideas tossed around. they may involve superheroes sometimes, but they are also ambitious and raw. having not yet faced obstacles in life that give them doubts about their own ideas, kids are able to think bigger and broader. >> bigger and broader, the kind of outrageous thinking is the stuff that revolutions are made of. that gave the colonists the gal to break free of the british empire in the 18th century.

it gave a smart young girl the confidence to use small change to make a big difference. as quinn says, we should never doubt ourselves of being able to make an impact. so quinn smart, you are our foot soldier of the week. and that is our show for today. thank you to our panel for sticking around. and thanks to you at home for watching. see you tomorrow morning. bill bradley will join us. coming up, "weekends with alex witt." ♪ [ male announcer ] they were born to climb... born to leap, born to stalk, and born to pounce. to understand why, we journeyed to africa, where their wild ancestor was born. there we discovered that cats, no matter where they are... are born to be cats. and shouldn't your cat be who he was born to be?

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