of our military leadership at this point hard pressed to define precisely the mission or the metrics for the soldiers that remain in country. our first guest today, from pennsylvania, admiral joe sestak, and brandon webb, the author of "the red circle, how i trained the world's deadliest marksman." brandon, i'll begin with you on the set. an apparatus is only as good as the metrics and the mission. fair? >> yes. >> how clear are the metrics in our current occupation? >> when you look at what's happening over there, i think it's a step in the right direction, but like we were talking previously, you have a situation where there still is no clear -- clearly defined ultimate objection in afghanistan. what are the milestones? how does it shape up? when you're in a situation where

you have this ambiguity out there, the american people don't understand what the objective is, what's our return on investment, what's our very clearcut plan. you get a different answer of everyone you ask, whether they're in the service or a politician or walking on the street, they'll tell a different answer. that's an issue. >> ultimately, mission clarity and metrics congressmen are to be defined by the policymakers themselves that we train, people like brandon and so many others to execute these missions quite candidly above and beyond, i think, all of our expectations when you see what they are capable of. what is the barrier that we can make our way through this summer? forget the past. so that we can define mission clarity for those that are currently in country, define metrics and help achieve them? >> i think the reason we went

into afghanistan, dylan, has been achieved at greater sacrifice than it should have if we hadn't gone through that tragic venture in iraq, which was to destroy the haven. it went to pakistan and we have decimated that to a large extent. now what the president is trying to do, and i agree with you that he's accepting reality that was obvious a few years ago, is to try to hand over not peace but a decent counter-insurgency effort by training the afghanistan military and police. so that when we do depart and they continue with our support with nato $4 billion, they are hopefully going to be able to not have a vacuum there that iran comes in, that al qaeda with a taliban come back. i think that's possible, but i'm not sure it's probable. so exiting as we can safely is the best strategy, leaving some

modicum of stability behind. >> brandon, when you look at translating the debate on american soil, whatever that debate consists of, into the reality of waking up and going to bed as a warrior in afghanistan, what would be the one thing that an active duty soldier in afghanistan that would make their lives more clear and more easy today? regardless of what we talk about. >> i think it just comes down to why are we over there and what are we trying to accomplish? it's just -- you look at -- you talk about the situation where we're propping up this counter-insurgency, but at what point when we turn off the faucet of funding, what's left? what's going to incentivize the people of afghanistan to stay there and reinvest in their own country, and that's something that i think is a big problem,

too. yeah, sure, you pay these guys money, they'll join the army, they'll be a policeman. what really, truly are they fighting for and what's going to be left when the funding turns off in a decade or longer? >> and to that end, congressman, really, what brandon is referring to obviously is hearts and minds at the end of the day and why it is that a given man or woman in any part of the world gets out of bed and goes to work that day and what that means to them. obviously, everybody in this world would like to have some sense of food security. everybody in this world would like to have some sense of energy security. whether you're chinese, brazilian, american, whatever your origin is or afghani, security gets higher when food, energy and adaptive health are available. do you get the sense that we are even in a position as a foreign power to affect a culture like that that is not ours. are we arrogant to suggest that our dreams of this sort of

utopian world of food and energy, it's not for us to project that. or is that something that we should be doing? >> no, it's not. when we went into afghanistan initially with the prime purpose of eradicating the al qaeda that struck us on 9/11, and i was on the ground for a very short mission, nothing like what brandon has done, who is a true hero, we were doing it right. we had our special forces, our civil affairs forces, and we're bringing in the other element of our power of education, the rule of law, to leave behind a society that had some economic development and was able to be viable without letting a haven be reestablished in the future for al qaeda. when we took those forces and went to iraq, our chairman or the joint chiefs of staff said a few years ago, in iraq, we do what we must. in afghanistan, we do what we can. that ended it right there. because we no longer had the

ability and the attention of the resources when we're just doing what we can instead of what we must to gain the hearts and the minds. that's why this exit is the right thing to do. the national treasure it would take to have that society the way you describe it is too much. as you brought up in the beginning of this discussion, trying to get out through pakistan is the safest and surest method we can go. but we've already let contracts in february of this year to get out through those five northern countries there, the central asian states like uzbakistan. this is a hard thing to exit, and we have to do it safely, and hopefully leave behind an army that can give some stability and security to those that remain there.

>> unless you spot on 5, 10, 20 people, of all the countries you could do business with to enhance your supplies, to enhance your security, to facilitate a mission, whatever it might be, on a military activity, is there a community or one group of communities in that part of the world that you personally or those that you worked with found historically more reliable than others? and is there a guidance for us as we try to navigate the exit, is there any variance of those that can be relied upon? >> there are good people in afghanistan that love the country and want to see meaningful change. but you just have to understand that that takes a lot of time. it doesn't take -- you can't affect that kind of cultural change in ten years and give them, you know, a democracy overnight. it takes time to establish those

roots, and we'll kneeled the cooperation of pakistan for sure, or it's going to plummet into civil war and the taliban will take over again. the bigger issue i see is there's all this talk about al qaeda this, al qaeda that. what we're really up against is this radical islamic movement globally, and you have this situation where we're running around putting out fires, which are the symptoms of radical islam, which we should be looking at affecting, how do we affect the root causes? what are the social and political environments that are producing the bin ladens of tomorrow, because there are a whole lot of other scary terrorist groups moving around. >> how would define the roots? >> the roots is these radical mulans that are getting these five-year-old kids in yemen and pakistan, all over, and they're teaching them to hate.

>> i guess my question is what is the social, governmental, environmental prerequisite to have an appetite for that? >> it's a hearts and minds game. you start investing in education, stability, and you start winning over those hearts and minds. >> it's a totally different mission. >> absolutely. >> if i could, dylan, that's what we were out doing at the very beginning of this conflict. the illiteracy rate of women is about 95% in afghanistan. the ability to fix that might have done more for fixing the source of terrorism than anything the military could do. we in the military can stop a problem, we can't fix it. just like brandon webb said, the economic development, the literacy system where they have hope and don't get attached to a radical idea is what we were about before we took our focus off this war. one last thing that is very important. as we exit, we have to remember we're leaving there some very

good afghan military. many of them are inept, i got it, but when they got shot, a chinook would fly in, pick them up and take them to a first class surgical place. how that evaporates on them will also determine how well they stand by themselves, because we have to make sure this transition isn't looked upon them like it was after the soviet union, and we were given supplies against them, and the soviet union exited, that they feel completely helped and that the president has given them all the support he can give. >> the military is incredibly well skilled at putting out the fire or extinguishing the burn. the mission of healing or caring for the root of the fire before

it lights is a broader mission that will involve our military but will involve everybody else as well. and, really, that would suggest to me should be the post-war mandate for global culture, which i think we're seeing in many, whether people who are on tv or have power, if people of any kind are discussing it, it's rather inspiring when you see it. brandon, it's great having you in studio. colonel, it admiral, it's great to have you. i'll give you the real story behind what i think was driving mayor booker's comments, and it has nothing to do with presidential politics. then the good and the bad news behind the coming apocalypse. there's good news in it. we'll discuss. as any good marine will tell you, chaos equals opportunity, after all.

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this kind of stuff is nauseating to me on both sides. it's nauseating to the american public. enough is enough. not only was i talking about obama in certain issues, and my outrage and frustration was about the cynical, negative campaigning, the manipulating of the truth. >> humuna, humuna, humuna.

mayor cory booker of newark, new jersey, is backpedalling of the comments that were critical of obama's campaign message. karen, susan and jimmy, we'll get into the merits and lack thereof of private equity and capital and capitalism a little later when peter shiff is heard, but in the meantime, politics is as clean as politics can be, and you have to have your guys saying the right stuff, don't you, jimmy? >> well -- >> it's not fun if they don't say the right stuff. >> if you can't say anything nice, keep your mouth shut, right? that's what my mama used to say. look, when you're a surrogate for the campaign of the presidency, you tend to stick to the talking points. mr. booker did not stick to the talking points, however, the great irony is a lot of people agree with mr. booker. apparently just not the obama campaign. there's a problem with that. if you're going to talk about him, you need to stick to the

campaign talking points. i don't have a problem with what cory booker said. what he said was the same thing obama said in 2007-'08. >> we'll come back to the money. it was bad politics. >> two things, number one, the part of bad politics, in general, not part of the campaign. i think we make too much of disagreements within a party because our country was founded -- >> it's good theatre. >> right, it's good theatre, but disagreeing is not a bad thing, necessarily. however, to jimmy's point, having worked with surrogate and been a surrogate, generally the conversation goes something like this. here's the talking points, here are the likely questions, and you say, you know what, i don't think you're going to like my answer on this, then probably you're not the person who should be on "meet the press," so we're going to switch you out. i mean, seriously. that at the end of the day -- that's how that meeting goes. somewhere in there, cory probably should have said, you know what, i probably have a different take -- by waithe way

some of these folks give to my campaign and i'm hoping they'll invest in newark, so i'm not going to be the guy that is naus yat -- nauseated. or simply ask for the points they would like him to make, and that's part of the conflict, is that you now have the obama team on defense, and they have to now distance themselves from a very popular surrogate. so politically, that doesn't necessarily work. what's a bigger problem for the campaign is, once you're explaining these differences politically, you've lost. you know, we're going to talk about the nuance here, but guess what, it just makes you madder. >> when the good lord closes one door, he opens another one. i think there is a door open here for the obama campaign, which now they can actually have a conversation about romney's record as opposed to this. >> i agree with that. we'll come back for that.

here's the ultimate obama campaign meeting closer. it's a good thing we're running against romney. the panel stays. we'll come back and talk a little bit more about this later. let us go -- you know that's what they're saying! good thing it's romney. a little political tidbit for you as a system we all know and love continues to struggle to actually revive itself in a sense. between 2002 and 2008, an incumbent politician was more likely to die in office than be defeated in a primary election. that is how uncompetitive our competitive democracy has become when it comes to candidate selection. that is one of the reasons behind the launch of the campaign for primary accountability, which is being led in part by mark mekler, who

is back with an update on that effort. the statistics can who fi you. mark, you dug so deep you decided to make your efforts exclusively to be connecting the voters with the people. what can we do to keep it from being more competitive still? >> it continues to get competitive. we had more turnover in this cycle than any other cycle. we are making progress. we have a couple hot primaries coming up here in the next couple weeks. we have one outside el paso. sylvester reyes, a young, new progress progressive, it looks like they're dead even. dead even with a young challanger. that's exciting. we have the wrangle race coming up in new york. it looks like we have a pretty

even race there with a young challanger as well. >> how have the optics been with those who view this is either a conservative liberal or general that. a political persuasion that, you know, it's a different thing. >> so in pennsylvania we had the holding cart race. he had been redistricted into a very left district, and he's the young new guy that will probably end up in congress. so people are accusing us of being right wing, they've accused us of being left wing. >> if people want to help you more, what is the thing that you would like to have more of that

you think would be most aligned with our collective goal which is more competition, more debate and just more engagement between the voters and those who we vote for? >> the thing is to engage in the primaries, to get out there and understand that's where your vote really counts. 85% of sclikdistricts are fixed. you need to get out there and engage in the primary elections. that's what every citizen has to do. they can help us out at campaigcampaig campaignforprimaryaccountability .org. >> if you look at the disengagement, which is clearly the bigger risk. 40% said their votes didn't matter because of super pac money. you have those statistics. 196 people providing 80% of all the money for the super pacs for 311 million of us. the greatest hurdle it would

seem for you and any of you to have is to make people feel it was their effort, that the appe apathy or the disengagement from the system and how you engage actually matters. >> that apathy is not entirely irrational with 85% of districts being fixed. right now in the democratic primary, only 8.5% of general voters participate. for republicans, it's $11.5. that means your vote really counts. get engaged in an election, you could literally influence a primary election. that's how it's supposed to be, dylan. >> if you were to look at the best tactic that is being used to keep you and others like you from having power, what is it? if i'm an incumbent and you're coming for me, what's my best way to get rid of you? >> there are two things

incumbents do which is behind the scenes. one is they discourage the traditional donors by telling them they'll be excluded in the system. >> so don't give them any money. >> that's it, and they tell the folks who they engage in advice not to participate or they'll never work on that side of the island again. so there is a pressure that none of the voters see to keep people in office. >> and they say never to work for a crazy person like you, or they'll -- >> they also promised them plumb positions if they stopped working with us. the incumbents is really entrenched. >> we don't mean to indict your character, susan. i'm thrilled for your efforts. i'm honored to be able to support and raise awareness for those efforts and i do encourage everybody to check out the

campaign for the primary accountability.org. and more importantly, learn about your own primary at bal t ballotpedia. up next, probably the biggest rhetoric there is, and it's something both parties have in common. after this. ♪ what started as a whisper every day, millions of people choose to do the right thing. there's an insurance company that does that, too. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy?

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how do we create an economy where everybody from top to bottom, folks on wall street and folks on main street, have a shot at success? >> i have to say from a very personal level, i'm not about to sit here and indict private equity. >> it doesn't mean you weren't good at private equity. but that's not what my job is as president. my job is to take into account everybody, not just some.

>> well, there is a danger that we all suffer from and have for years now in our current political class. our politicians are incapable of distinguishing between capitalism where risk is retained and invested by the principal individuals and extractionism where, effectively, other people's money is used under the language and auspices of capitalism but for very different purposes. private equity borrows other people's money. are their incentives the same for somebody who invests their own money? history in mathematics would tell us they are very different things, yet the distinction of retaining your own capital, your own partnership at your own bank or firm and using other people's money, let alone the ability to use the money of the state, creates a total distortion from an opportunity-seeking culture that invents and creates things

for society to a risk transfer culture whose only incentive is to manufacture and transfer risk to somebody other than themselves. peter schiff joins the table now. he's author of "the totreal cra how to save your country." i think they mean it and they want everybody to have an opportunity, to have a fair shake, and i believe everybody of both political persuasions, i believe they actually feel that. but we seem to have lost a sense of retained risk, and the difference between an investor who has the responsibility for the risk of screwing it up and the incentive that comes with that and this new paradigm which basically allows me to get rid of all that risk, call cit

capital. >> that's not capitalism, that's government. >> fair enough, but i'm saying politically, and that's your opinion, and i don't disagree with you, and i agree with what you're saying, but what i'm saying is we have watched since 2008 these words mixed up all over the place, and i think it's time that we have to have a bit more compassion. >> capitalism is getting a bad name because we're not practicing it. when obama says we need to create a society where everybody has a chance to succeed -- >> he means that. >> but we don't have to create that. it's already here. the government just has to get out of the way and let the free market function and stop interfering with all their regulations and central planning. >> i understand, but i don't want to get away from the fixes because everybody has a different fix and a different thing. i want to stick to the singular thing, karen, which is the concept of retained risk and whether you're responsible for your decisions and your resources and to collaborate with us or whoever is around you. and that's not a political posture, that is a cultural view that we all, as americans, hold

in our identity. we just seem to have lost the ability to understand how to practice it. >> but it feels like this is part of the fairness argument the president was talking about. i think it's been part of the lesson that a lot of people in that 90% felt like when the market crashed that there is a lot of people in this country that get to play by a different set of rules so they don't retain the risk. >> and those people come with access to politicians. >> right, the access to politicians, but taxes, whether it's tax loopholes or -- i think a lot of people and what obama is talking about, there are a lot of people that paid their mortgage, still do. >> why is it fair so is --

forget low interest loans, why are my tax dollars being used to pay back unpaid iag bonuses from 2005? >> then why are my tax dollars going to fix the road on your street so you can get in the car and drive down the road? come on. >> let's stop it. if you want to argue about rhodes and cylindra, do it on another tv show. seriously. i have so much to talk about and so little time, i don't care about those things. i'm talking about a culture, susan, that has lost its ability between ascertained risk. we have a small group of people who are using the banking system to hide behind a culture of retained risk that's been taken from us, and nearly the political leadership, neither

republicans or democrats -- >> we fwet it. . we have to limit the government. we have to take away the ability of t it's not like switching political parties right now is going to solve that problem. >> so if you take away the

chance to sell politics. . what is actually happening now and not that it's. we have sle deep structural problems underlying our economy. for years the federal reserve has kept interest rates artificially low to stimulate it. so we don't save enough, we don't produce enough, we don't bite fuf. al -- when this thing collapses. >> you don't have to convince us of that. can we get in there and do party bypass surgery before this krurks urie.

>> there's some bitter tasting medicine that will cure this economy, but we don't want to do that, we want to keep shooting it up with the stimulus novocain so we don't feel the pain, but the -- >> is there a third option which goes to a debt restructuring not at the expense of the poorest but a debt reconstruction at the expense of the banks? >> everybody who gets a check from government will have to get smaller checks. >> jimmy, what are you thinking? >> well, i think that it's a lovely ideal and it's lofting. i just think at the end of the day, one believes the government has a role. you told me you think the government doesn't have a role in factions. i believe they have to put more

money up. the free market put us in 2008 -- >> no, they didn't. that wasn't the free market, that was the government that did that. >> i helped write it, i have to tell you, you're wrong. >> no, i'm right, and i pre dikd it. you're right of the. i've known peter for a long time, i've known jimmy for a long time p. i knowed invoice -- i know whether it was governor who retained it all, and the use of capital, you say the free market does it, he thinks government does it. >> no, i'm saying government can play a role. >> fair enough. >> we had the federal reserve that set interest rates too low, we had the government

guaranteeing it. the government created this monster. >> yes, but knowing that -- we agree. banks, everybody who bought this madness. >> it might be a paradigm shift rather than just who did what to wh whom. before we restore cabinets and reset all prices, i would love that. the impact of human life in doing that, and the strait of distortion refined ourselves in is so violent that we will need to find a tran sakz. >> and go to the poorest people's interest rates, which have to go up, but nobody wants them to sail which our banks will go up.

z skpl you get these ripples of diskorgs. i think we harm ourselves when we get lost on whether it's the government offer the free market or the government's call. and that we serve ourselves and what we all need to acknowledge which is that the integrity rit can i of pricing, period has put a huge facilitator with a huge incentive to do that. . peter, jimmy, thank you. susan, karen. thank you. coming up, no nasa, no problem. the sput of american space travel happening right now. can i get a ride on that bird, after this. ♪

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there you go, lift off. a new day for space exploration has indeed dawned. falcon 9 lifted off from cape canavaral this morning, the first ever headed for the space station. on board today, 1,000 pounds of food, some more supplies, high school science projects all bound for the international space station, and along with all that cargo, also on board were the ashes of some 300 self-pro claimed space junkies who had their ashes launch sbed into space. those included actor scottie duhan who played on "star trek," so scotty finally got beamed up. we are, after all, richard, only a phone call away.

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ziz really need you to get off that bus. it's highly likely you've met with an infectious disease and you're highly contagious. >> an infectious disease kills an entire population in just a matter of days. this is already occurring for many species on this planet. the good news is we are survivors as a species and historically always have been. we're breaking it down with scientific editor, fred guttel, "the fate of the species." before we get into the perils of our time, of which there are

abundance and we'll talk of some of the more terrifying ones that exist, what is it after having completed an audit of the perils of our time that you walk out of it feeling optimistic? >> well, i think optimism is a quality of a person's personality, so i think you either have it or you don't. but i think basically, you know, when you fear something, when you put something out of your mind, you try not to think about it, it grows, the fear grows, and i think having done this inventory, so to speak, of the threats that we face of our own making, really, you know, i feel optimistic that we're going to do the right things and make the right choices and that the worst is going to happen. >> so the first step is actually taking this inventory because if you don't take the inventory, you can't do anything about it. >> i think a lot of people don't understand, really, how many risks we are taking right now, and i think the first thing to do is to understand what the

problem is. >> so lay it out. what are the worst risks we're taking and we don't even know? >> it comes down to three things, really. it comes down to the climate, it comes down to disease, and it comes down to machines. and all these things are a product -- all the risks that we're facing are a product of our own successes of species. we've had tremendous population growth and my dad was born -- there were fewer than 2 billion people on the planet. there are now seven and we're headed toward 10 billion. if you're an ecologist and you were looking at these population dynamics, say, an anthill or a bunch of bugs in a petrie dish, you would say, hmm, that population is headed for a crash. that's what i find scary, because populations don't rise that quickly forever and then just level off, generally. they crash. so what i wanted to do was look at, you know, what that could be

and how we could stop it. >> so? >> well, i think the three big parts of the problem, climate is the first one. you know, we are, as you know, we're pumping a lot of carbon into the atmosphere. this is a very big and very rapid geochemical change in the earth. >> the carbon loading. >> the carbon loading, right. if you look back into our distant past, and i mean in the history of life on earth before humans, about 250 million years ago, there was an event that involved a huge release of carbon into the atmosphere. it involved vulcanism. a bunch of lava came out of the volcano andie v evaporated in a. if you go back even farther, you

find that when the earth was dominated a anaerobic activity, the algae produced a chemical change in the atmosphere which caused a die-off. so that's a risk. >> it's interesting, and we'll spend more time on this over the months to come, the book, "the fate of the species, why the human race may cause its own extinction and how we can stop it," the three big points from fred, climate, disease and machines, and as we've talked a lot about the solutions to those problems lie in our own ability to connect with each other and seize collective collaboration to resolve them. collective collaboration is a solution to the problems of our times, and the strongest networks, those with the highest integrity, are the ones that will find the best answers to those problems through the act

of self-organization. that is the topic this thursday night at the 92y. russell simmons will talk about adding collective collaboration to culture. you can go to dylanratigan.com before so10:00 eastern tonight find out what's going on with that and maybe we'll give away some tickets. collective collaboration, so we can navigate the conversations around the unspeakable issues we like to talk about, because once we talk about them, we can solve them. we're right back here with the daily rant, right after this. no. he's, he's on my back about providing for his little girl. hey don't worry. e-trade's got a totally new investing dashboard. everything is on one page, your investments, quotes, research... it's like the buffet last night. whatever helps you understand man. i'm watching you. oh yeah? well i'm watching you, watching him. [ male announcer ] try the new 360 investing dashboard at e-trade.

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all right, here's david goodfriend with a rant. >> hi, dylan.

last year i took my family to israel for my oldest son's bar mitzvah. i've been thinking about that trip a lot this week as a nuclear iran rips across the headlines. for those of us in the jewish community who love israel and want peace, today's middle east debates lack a critical topic. iran has pushed off the radar screen any discussion of a two-state solution between israel and the palestinians, and that's wrong. we need a two-state solution now more than ever. some members of my community say i'm not helping israel by bringing up peace by the palestinians. they tell me the only way to really support israel is to support prime minister netanyahu and his government no matter what. this is where i start to get a little ticked off. since when did we jews have just one opinion on anything, let alone how to achieve peace between israel and its neighbors? so i decided to become active in a new pro-israel, pro-peace

organization called j street. for a lot of us jew organizations who are progressive and pro-peace, it's important. if israel is to remain a democracy in a jewish state, demographics alone should propel a jewish nation. then you'll have what former prime ministers have warned will be an apartheid state, a majority governed by a minority. the current situation becomes unsustainable and truly a threat to the dream. we take away the primary argument of those who want to see israel destroyed. look, the palestinian leadership has missed plenty of opportunities. they offered land, including the entire west bank, to jerusalem, put billions of dollars on the table, and the palestinians won't respond. i'm not saying we have to hug and say kum-bah-yah, i just want an applicable divorce so we don't have to live in the same

house anymore. when i was in israel, i saw a bustling town with an amazing economy, amazing music and art, food like you can't believe. this is a country going through a bona fide renaissce. leaving the country at a time like this would be like taking off in an airplane without enough fuel. it's only a matter of time before gravity drags you down. we americans, and in particular we american jews, should be doing everything we can to make sure a two-state resolution becomes a reality. it demands no less. >> well said, david. "hardball" is up now. >> the bain mutiny. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews up in boston.