heroes? why do i feel so uncomfortable about the word hero? it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. and i don't want to, obviously, desecrate or disrespect the memory of anyone that's fallen and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism, hail of gunfire and things like that. but it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that's problematic. >> though two words, uncomfortable next to hee owes went viral. and i can understand why someone reading those headlines would think at a very minimum, what a jerk. and i heard from a lot of people saying that and worse. many of the responses that i received were profane, some including from veterans and active service members were supportive. and some came from people who are genuinely anguished.

one basically said my brother died in iraq. who the hell are you to say he wasn't a hero. and uncomfortable, really? well, too bad. and reading those messages, i had to agree. who was i to say who was and wasn't a hero. it hardly seems a designation to confer which is in a very clumsy way what is trying to say, or at least what i wanted to discuss. not who makes a hero, but rather this. we have a society that on the one hand has become confidentble with war and on the other hand, wants to out source it to contractors, robots and the 2.3 million men and women who have asked to serve for longer durations than in any time in history.

what we're trying to do here on this show, and obviously we don't always succeed, is to talk about sometimes quite sensitive topics in good faith to explore ideas and perspectives that don't always get a hearing and to think through the news with understanding and empathy. to wrestle with our shared public life grounded in real experiences. we tried to do that last week. but i fell short in a crucial moment. so i want to try it again. and joining us in that effort, executive director and cofounder of the servicewomen's network. texas policy foundation josh travino. army vet who went onto serve as speech writer for george w. bush. if not now, when? and kayla williams, author of a great book love my rifle more

than you. and a project associate at the military think tank that i should note she is mot speaking on rand's behalf today. jack, you wrote something last week that i thought was really interesting. e you talked about the change of americans who have served in their household and it's been shrinking as the share of the population, even during the period where we've had the longest sustained period of war in the nation's history. you have this line, it's easy to love the troops when you don't have to be the troops. >> i was thinking ant when i came wac from iran. it was a long and unupon popular war and there were riots in the streets. today, we've had a number of long and unpopular wars. one of the independent variables is there's no draft.

and you can pause at the notion that says if we had a draft now if which people were arbitrarily selected to go into the uniform, which is what selective service really means, you would have riots the streets here, too. and i'm very much concerned between the wide gulf and the people who are being served. it's easy to be complacekplcompt service when you don't have to do it. >> the draft question is one policy solution to this divide. in fact, charli rangle, at one point, was proposing. i think it entered legislation. >> he was looking for a way to get out of -- not him getting out, he was looking for a way to get people to confront the notion that he's going off to war. and he didn't want to go off to war and that was his way of dog it. >> i mean, my instincts on that

is that all voluntary services were a good policy change from the days of the draft. i actually don't have well thought of forms, either. we're talking about the military divide. if we're talking about exactly this issue which is we've been waging war for a decade and a very small share of people actually fight it. >> you know, it's far better than its most avid components. back in 1963 when i got the visa, the solution or the problem that the renewed draft strikes me as a big pause si. i'm not convinced that it's a particularly good one. i have think the colonel is

entirely correct because we have a long and popular war specifically because we doen't have a draft. >> i'm suggesting the universal services disslus. a larger portion of people in iraq votes where you get shot if you vote, than vote in the united states of america. i'm not a fan of selective service. i think that's a rotten idea, too. people can choose dicht forms of service. this service is something that is not uncommon in a lot of countries around the world. >> in america, we don't consider service a state as much to being a hallmark. it's state validation. in any form. >> and how do we measure that,

right? i'm a fan of selective service to women. >> i think everybody should -- >> for women's service in the military right now where they're perceived, in many cases, as second class citizens. they're not allowed to do the things that 34 men are able to do. >> the one thing that you said, i e e'll give you the averse of notion that, service to the states should not designate you as a citizen. and, yet, the german side is we have people who are aliens in this country. we've decided that they're going to wear the uniform while everybody else watches television. >> i had a theoretical understanding of the good reasons for possibly going back to that. bud when i was on the ground, i had no desooifr. it was tough enough to be there with people who chose to inlist

and didn't want to go off to war. that was widely shared by the people i was serving at that time. >> and, yet, those who have actually fought in combat will tell you what i'm telling you. the other guys are trying desperately to kwon tact you. but most of all, we fight for each other, whether the guy was a draft or left-handed or anything else. >> i think my understanding of reading that conversion concerns precisely about that. there were concerns about the readiness of the force and the nature of the force. there was a whole wave of literature in the armed services about the fact that they felt that the draft force was not producing the best possible soldiers, right? there wasn't concern about -- or

maybe it was political pressure that didn't want to keep imp lif kating the varieties. >> there was this lovely debate. i guess it was in if late '60s. they argued will it was going to be him. he was just as good as a volunteer. >> well, he served in the second world war. but we had plenty of draftees and we won the war. in korea, we didn't win, but we weren't fighting nil. . >> things are different today. we have systems that are much more difficult to use. literacy was required in a way that wasn't necessary for world war ii for your basic infantry soldier. i think to be able to maintain if high standards that are required to produce the level of troops that we see today, i think it would be much more

difficult to do that if we opened i it up. >> the whole point about service, it's very easy to get down the road and say we need "n" people in order to man the military we have today and they have to have "y" capability. they have to have these levels of reader ship and all of the rest of that stuff. this is jacob's talking. my notion of service has nothing at all to do with feeling the force -- feeling the competent force in order to fight the enemy. we can do that. >> there's a lack of civic engagement right now and we see it in the sense of only less than 1 p% of other countries ar in the program. a two-year mandatory service, you know, after high school and a number of different fields and sectors.

we lack that sense right nown this country. >> josh, your disagreement with that proposition i think is very cles to what my distribution is. so i want you to say it right after we take this break. wake up! that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm. for half the calories plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8. [ children laughing ]

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compare hundreds of cards from every major bank, and find the one that's right for you. creditcards.com. it's simple. search, compare, and apply. all right, we're talking about the civilian military gap, as people refer to it certainly during this decade of war. the longest period of war with a volunteer force. josh, you come from several generations of people that served. you, yourself, have served. and the colonel was just saying he envisioned some sort of corrective service as a way of

bringing the nation together and not letting people off the hook. and you seemed uncomfortable with that idea. i'd like to know why? >> i see there's a decline that's been going on for at least two generations now. so whether it's the military, whatever you have, there is this kind of bowling phenomenon that's been going on and it's a real problem. but i don't think you can compel by government fiat any kind of solution to this. it's not something that the state can deal about. it is our participation in family, churches, private institutions. that's what has to abide by american citizenship. >> as a soldier after 9/11 i was surprised by the nation's response and the response of our leadership that the solution to go shopping, as opposed to finding a way to serve. my aunts told me when i was younger about using eye liner to

draw lines up the backs of their legs during world war ii because it was rationed. there was no sense that we, as a nation, had to come together. it was those people get sent off to war. we soldiers got sent off to war without the nation coming together to support us in that. and in one of the things, it's a brutal fact. is that the most trusted assumption in american life by far, in the general social survey. is the united states armed forces. by far. 60, 65% of the people have -- >> where's the congress? >> congress is at 12%. >> it's lowering osama bin laiden. . >> you have a situation in i think would make the founders incredibly uncomfortable.

the least trusted institution is the rep zen taegs of government in congress. what do you make of that? when you look at the 99% of the trade who aren't serving, it hasn't added up to that. apparently, veterans are more likely to come abroad as ceos than nonveterans. either those were joining the military and were trustworthy, some of their skel tonl values in the military. but there's a great deal that we have to learn in a society. >> if the problem is that we don't have have any faith of our institutions. the solution to that problem is

not to, at this -- you're talking about effectively aggression's law -- is not to make the military worse, but to make the economiers better. and we focus a great deal on the presidential election. and at the end of the day, it's the congress who really makes a difference. this president of the united states decided before he get elected, it was a close one to him. the fact of the matter says the president was closed at one time. determining required more than $80 million to close. that's the reason. focused attention is probably misguided. >> but doesn't it also create a subtle -- this gap, then, in reputational capital, right? the degree to which people look at and stay a senator. they largely say i trust what

you have to say and they largely say to political leaders, i do not trust kwha you have to say. it creates all sorts of imbans balances, i think. one of the things we've seen from the reporting is -- about this administration and the decision to escalate in afghanistan, so they felt boxed in and the president did not. now, maybe it's a good thing that they did that. but that seems to me there is a result of this differencing in reputation. the military is very good at one thing. i say you start at the end and work backwards. before you allocate resources, what is it you're trying to accomplish? and when that decision is made, that question was asked and answered that what we wanted to do was withdraw.

and the only way we can withdraw, it seems like an ir y irony. but it's to make sure that we are able to withdraw by increasing the force levels at the time. we knew we were going to get out. >> i think the other interesting factor about your point to military personnel is the false assumption that military personnel can speak with a unified voice. there were differences in opinion about the national teleview. one person can represent what all military personnel think is equally dangerous. >> i think it was ever thus. you know, back to the mexican war, lincoln with his generals, very famously.

>> and mcarthur got fired. i think one thing to keep in mind is when you look at the military and the success in which it's held. it' very rare to have an organization that's not providing a bunch of receiving. >> but i want to challenge this idea of the american society. i really expect veterans. >> they say they do. they fell apollsters they do. we're seeing a good number of people trying again. even in terms of businesses, you know, hiring, work saving. there's no talk about savings. there's just a few this and there. it eegs major banks.

>> i wonder if some of the effect is a little bit patronizing. thank you for your service. i hear that a lot about it makes me profoundly uncomfortable. that's another thing there's disagreept. but it makes me uncomfortable. i chose do exist pre-9/11 and ir got deployed to arack. i went to combat as a professional. it was my job. and when people think me, do you go around and thank police officers? do you go around and thank firefighters? nobody thinks tsa agents than me. >> all right. there's one other study on this issue and how it weighs out in elite circles right after we take this break. it's very important to understand

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america doesn't know its military and the united states military doesn't know america. we cannot afford to be out of touch with them. and to the degree we are out of touch, i think it's a very dangerous course. and that it will generate an outcome some day. we'll wake up one morning that will be an event to experience this. and in that, we'll find out we're less than 1% and we don't know the american people and the american people done know us. >> that's former joint chiefs of stad. and what i think was interesting about that, you made this point that there's a difference between what people tell apollster's abthe respect they feel towards and think theory is

that there's a connection between those two things, that part of the -- there's a lot of guilty in this country about the fact that so few of us are certain. and that manifests itself in all kinds of ways. it doesn't do it in the most effective ways in temples of policy. whechb i speak to americans across the country, i've been shocked about how little they know if they were allowed to carry a give up. . >> i should say do you pose? >> right. a and i had others ah rised in the industry. i got get lots of questions i think there is a desire to help our troops. and that hapt been effectively tapped. so far. there are efforts like the joining forces initiative. but what i struggle with as an

advocate push for the property ports to be in place to help those who are having a tough time transitioning home and out of military service wliel not perpetuating the ser you type that i think is really starting to deeply take route. that that's our broken, homeless, unemployed, homicidal, suicidal, generally broken. and how do i support not preparing them. over the long haul, vets are more highly educated. and post-traumatic stress, with early evidence-based treatment is certainly something that people can recover from and continue to have rich, strong lives. the defense department is responsible for part of this. it takes three-four mobtss to

transition sb. i think the defense department has a lot to can r ask for chblt they have a responsibility to make sure that troops get the proper transition and support that they need. and it's great that we have civilians who want to do that. i think dod has a lot to answer for. >> i have would like to add to what kayla just said. not just in the military, but along the employers. there's a sense that veterans are unstable. very few have actually seen that once they're on the force. so this tendency of victimized

beer, veteran's absolutely are money and coming home from war and leaving the stfs was enormous challenges. but they're not insurmountable, right? we, as a nation, need to understand there are high-functioning in the sector. >> and i mean, it points to exactly this sort of caricature and kond sags that you've known before. that is part of what the kind of divide that they're talking about. >> yeah, speak up, america, please. >> oh, yeah, i love the american pb lick. >> well, fist of all, we hope they're e-mailing us. kwhen i was boarding the plane to come here yesterday from austin, texas. the dolphins had arrived and wasn't unloaded. it was very moving, actually.

. i shed a manly tear, unfortunately. but in this respect of what you'yo you're making with the ease -- think ere oo gr think're grateful to you. i think this is much of a virtue than we give them the credit for. i joined the army so i could get a college education. we all joined the service for whatever reasons, unless we're drafted in which case we have no choice. whatever our individual motivations, you, you did what you did for them. you went to war for them as an expression of this democratic society. it actually speaks to their benefit. >> but i'm not sure that that awareness exists deeply enough. i think admiral mullen's point is very valid.

and when i came back from iraq every mattress store. i went to visit my family in other states, nonkpis tent. you wouldn't know it. that sense of the extent of what you have to do as american to recognize the student that could marn ewe fakture on your the back of your car. that's something that i find problematic. >> in terms of what the numbers looks like, and we'll talk to the professor who has written and studied this in just a second. this is a huge change that's happened in the las 10, 15 yearings.

i mean just literally in a r are there people serving or are there recruiters of 10 square miles to me. the annals, it is two americas fwh that sense. >> that clip of admiral mullen was taken at the national defense territory. he was talking to very high-rnking people in sfgs. so his message was to them, not to the american public. and i thifl he was then and still is absolutely right. >> we're going to talk to someone who studies the way in which this gap plays out right affidavit we take this quick break. m, an ingredient that works more naturally with your colon than stimulant laxatives, for effective relief of constipation without cramps. thanks. good morning, students. today we're gonna continue...

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nonmilitary students. professor, thank you so much for coming. josh said something a moment ago about parts of the aspects of this relationship between civilians in the military. it never was thus. i want you to say how much is that the case and how much has changed about the way in kwh particularly elite circumles, the military and civilians are or are not elite of each other. but since it's pointed out by the panel already today, already the gap has widened in a sense. the gree graphic redistributions of resources, rotc becoming somewhat more regionally related. so there has been a kind of exacerbation.

and as wu pointed out in the area, less than 1% of the american public is really bathering the full warfare. there's always been a bit of a gap. in some ways, a gap is constitutionally good because we don't want to have a militarized society. once it becomes more exens theive, you create all the problems that you can change that? we kicked off the discussion and we ended up about the confers about the draft which is the most extreme policy recommendation one would give. universal services are even more extreme than selective service. are there ways to change that in terms of policy that are quite at that level.

>> well, someone made the opinion about cultural awaren s awareness. i've seen that in yuchbts for the last five years. more discussion about the need for more military inpult into the tra teemic studies programs. a lot of division in the rotc. and there's been so much more published abthis in the last 10 years, since 9/11 especially. i think that's important. the first big step in the right direction. in terms of policy, i think it's a question of, you know, the government programs that fund programs that talk about the issue. make sure we have scholarships for rotc students because rotc is really important. i think it's really more of a cultural issue. it's a two-way street that's been pointed out.

civil society is sort of retreating. it's also up to the military. the military is focusing more on certain areas of the country. and so it has to be 30 more programs to bring the two sites together. ip think that the post non-lefb will do the purpose of wrijing college camp because the education benefits are finally up at a level that really makes that possible. to have military veterans hairing their speempbss and starting that dialogue can be really engaging with the silver fins. at least this is the impression

i go t. so disconnected. and i really think it could be ben fishlt who have not severed severe hardship on colleges alongside of combat veterans. you can say here's what the third world really looks like. >> we saw the two different as pekts. alsz the veterans. this has happened with the yellow river campaign. we knew the deed of general studies program which brings in more adult-type students. he just raved about the impact of the veterans of broadening the diversity of experience and diversity of knowledge. he said it dit have a huge impalt on knob-military students. he interviewed penal in madison.

and we fouchbd a large majority of th of the students talk about the relationship with members of rotc and with veterans. they do two things. one, it humanized the military so it wasn't scene as the alien other. and the second things it did was provided more tangible noej, you know, sort of correcting misinformation and things like that. >> madison wisconsin's reputation for liberalness notwithstanding, dick cheney did study there for a while. more on this when we come back after a break. [ male announcer ] this is the at&t network... a living breathing intelligence bringing people together to bring new ideas to life. look. it's so simple. [ male announcer ] in here, the right minds from inside and outside the company come together to work on an idea. adding to it from the road, improving it in the cloud

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>> yeah, we segwayed into an almost volunteer force, almost by default. the country was sick of it. the period, 1973 to 1976, those were the years when the current leadership of the military establishment came into the service. marty dempsey and rio denoce, and all of the other services all came in about that time. i had some of them in class when i was teaching at west point. everybody said this business about vietnam, we're never doing that again. we're never going to get ourselves into an environment in which we're going to fight an unpopular war and do it on the backs of a relatively small amount of people. and here we are 40 years later doing exactly the same thing. >> so how do we learn? what are the lessons of this period, then? that, to me, strikes me as the

most important thing. what are the lessons of the fact that we are now in our 11th year, right? of what has become an unpopular war in afghanistan. and that unpopularities of relatively recent vintage if you look at long durations of the war itself. what are the lessons of the war this time around. ? professor? >> yeah, that's really hard to say. mark twain said history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. i consider the war on terrorism to be a whole different set of issues from vietnam. and it's not clear to me what lessons we can learn from the past in relationship to the war on terror.

>> a broader segment of our population can serve than we previously had. women conserve in combat, particularly in counter insurgence varieties in a way that is particularly important. >> yeah, let me tell you the similarity here between the two periods. that is revolved solely around the use of the military instrumental power. of the three issues of power, economic and the one we used to the extent wu the military instrument of pow r. and today it's the military instrument of power. the reason is that we're lousy at integrating all three instruments into coherent use of america power and invariably, our knee jerk reaction u the default instrument of power hour

is the mull tear. why is that? well, i'll give you one reason. the one is that we're lousy at the other stwo. >> when -- we talked -- getting back to that institutional trust is because when griffin a mission, it's not acquitted himself over the last 10 years. and so hose two things, i think, feed on each other. donald downs, political science professor, thanks so much for joining us today. i'm sorry, we got to go, i really appreciate it. crazy, right ? well, with this droid razr by motorola on verizon 4g lte, you guys can stay in touch. ( grunts ) cool. you can video call on skype... send photos. yeah, okay. yeah, let's do it. get $100 off any motorola 4g lte smartphone,

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i would not say i'm into it, but let's see where this goes. [ buzzer ] do you like to travel? i'm all about "free travel," babe. that's what i do. [ buzzer ] balance transfers -- you up for that? well... too soon? [ female announcer ] fortunately, there's an easier way with creditcards.com. compare hundreds of cards from every major bank, and find the one that's right for you. creditcards.com. it's simple. search, compare, and apply.

do you have thoughts about where you think this conversation or this relationship, socially, goes? if afghanistan does draw down, which it's beginning to look like it does, what next? >> well, my fear is that the american public has a very short term memory. so they're very focused on one, are troops going to come home

from afghanistan. that's sort of the end of the discussion. but what we're concerned with really is not only the reintegration of troops, but the care that they receive when they come home. one of the things i'm skeptical is that we have so much work to do to make sure that the veterans are cared for. by the institutions such as media, such as government, such as business. that there's no actual proof that i'm seeing that the american society is really lempbing about how to effectively integrate veterans over the long term. there's still a lot of condescending attitudes in these very privileged institutions about veterans who choose to serve. about young americans across the society. and we have to examine those patronizing attitudes. we hear it pretty regularly, you

know, the sort of implications who serve. they're so naive, you know? but they're incredibly intelligent americans serving in our armed forces today. and i think understanding means that you actually e leblgt veterans to office and you hire them in your businesses. >> you made the point which i think is always important, and we talk about different parts of society on the show in different respects. that's a lot of people. there's terms of what label can we apply to 2.1 million people. there's diversity. that's something that gets lost in these kind of conversations. >> you know, whatever the critiques are of the american public's attitudes, which is veterans, i will take what we have now. i think that's actually to the american public's credit. the one thing i would dispute is whether a veteran's status

entitles you to a privilege place. so i don't think there should be a particular privilege place but by law and by policy, veterans are entitled to veter rans and health care. >> i completely agree on the health care and the benefits and the course of sfgs. . >> the number of veterans are still walting for those benefits. if you're lucky, you'll get a claim pass within six months. >> and i think -- >> it's the difference between whether or not they survive. >> if you're an alien in this country and you decide that you're going to wear the cloth of this nation wliel everybody else is sitting at home. i think you deserve to be a silt zen of this country. >> thanks so much for joining me this morning.

>> the so called kill list in president obama's drone war next. like to thank eating righ, whole grain, multigrain cheerios! mom, are those my jeans? [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. multigrain cheerios constipated? phillips' caplets use magnesium, an ingredient that works more naturally with your colon than stimulant laxatives, for effective relief of constipation without cramps. thanks. good morning, students. today we're gonna continue...

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good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes here with msnbc military generalist from the natural security project, jeremy scahill. all right. this week, the new york times published an explosive article about president obama's kill list. a top secret nominations process that designates for kill or capture in which the capture part has become largely theoretical. the president's role in the white house situation room where he pours over suspected terrorist bios and decided who's death to order next. mr. obama embraced a disputed

method fr counting casualties that did little to box him in. unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously approving them in a sense. white house spokesperson jay carney got into an exchange about this on tuesday. >> i don't have the assessments of civilian casualties. i'm certainly not saying we live in a world where the effort in a fight against al-qaida, against people who would, without compunction, murder tens of thousands if not millions ofs. if you a with a terrorist when the terrorist gets killed, the presumption is you are a terrorist as well. right? isn't that mart of the reason to to make the decision?

>> i am not going to get into the specifics of the process by this, you know, these decisions are made. >> this issue has been bubbling a bit. jeremy, you have been doing a tremendous amount of reporting for a long time. >> want to bracket the question of civilian casualties. i want to talk about the idea that's embedded in the article and never quite explicitly stated. >> the part of this is we have a completely tangled web sift. so there's been a shift from trying to capture people than from just killing them.

if you don't have the deal with the title that is our legal morass. >> i think that's an issue that has been talked about so publicly, whether in fact as a result of the administratiod mi policy. there is, now, an emphasis on killing instead of detention. and administration officials themselves say that is not the kwas, recognizing, i think, that it would be and is a severe violation of human rights law as well as the laws of war for the administration to kill people that it might bewise able to defeign. tan. it's the greater likelihood that that might be the case according tothd way that story was framed. ill think what we have to do is step back and plook at the targeting killing process.

we have had a program that was begun over the obama administration. this is a program in which the executive branch, president claims the authority to unilaterally declare people enemies oft state including u.s. citizens and order their killing based on secret little kriel tier ya. secret process and set evidence. there is no narnl security policy that poses a gra graver threat than this policy today. two other things that came. >> reporter: -- that were very significant about the article. one is that we really have a sin kl game become played right now. current officials gave interviews to the new york times.

but in court, in response to lawsuits again out to seek transparency. the govlt still takes the position that it is a krets that cannot be acknowledged. >> i think it's important to not leave the audience with the impression that the shift of suspects is driven by a desooifr to not capture them and not have to deal with them. that's the illegalities of jumping into this. there are places like the pakistan tribal areas where there are no effective military boots on the ground. but, none the less, we are in this decision. >> i want to make it clear that the implication of this is because of the legal morass comes down from me. it comes from your times. the administration's very

success at killing suspects has been shadowed by an admission. i was in somalia examining the landscape that the obama administration has wedged more on the world. the foal lowing is that ob would have been toe tamly unacceptable. i think you would have seen a much greater scandal erupt much sooner. president obama authorized his first known drone strike three days after taking office. as he was announcing this radical shift from the bush doctrine. he then doubles down and starts escalating: >> what does that mean? >> president obama is running an

asags nation program. he killed three u.s. citizens. one of them, in the kausz of samir kahn, his father and mother lif had been told by the fbi that he had not violated any laws and that aum of hi speech was protected first awe mendment speech. he was believed to be the editor of the al-qaida and the arabian peninsula, "spire." was murdered in a u.s. strike and there has been no explanation as to why a 16-year-old u.s. mth was killed. there's no indication that any known figures were killed. the american people deserve an explanation. what's president's obama's

policy. this would have spun along out rage and her definite li style. >> here is dick cheney praising if president's could wanter terrorism policy. >> i think he's in terms of a lot of terrorism policies, the early talk, for example, about plos cuting people in the cia who have been carrying out their poli policies. id think what we did was far more appropriate. >> that's dick cheney gloating a little bit. colonel? >> i think that josh is absol e absolutely right. the reason that we don't -- we're not capturing anybody anymore is because we done have the political will to have a sufficient amount of items on

the ground. we don't want to go through with i. it's really kind of astonishing. now, this is the way we are fighting the enemy, is the way that donald rumsfield would have wants to see the ground. if fact of the matter is the only way you can actually win wars of any kind, of any duration, is to help. part of the reason that he butted heads was he had the vision of a sweeping organizational campaign. >> and he was completely wrong. rick, who's now running veteran aes affairs who at the time was the chief of staff united states army testified among congress and said how many people is it going to take? it always takes more resources to hold on.

rumsfeld who wanted to do it using all kinds of electronic means because there was too much political trouble. >> one of the things we're assuming is very important to bring out is actually i had to get a. one of the reasons it's so controversial is it's being used not in afghanistan where we are not at wall. it has been used in places where the law of war simply don't suly. targeting itself can be taking up arms against the united states. but outside of that context, it's obl lawful if it is used

against a specific, concrete and imminent threat under the human rights law. >> and there are two kinds of strikes. program one are called personality strikes which is a specific individual about what he is doing and the em fants of a threat where something mite be broke. which i understand and stopped by the begin. signature strikes are a group of area in a period that we have a high position. >> we believe we jumped into minority report. and what i -- where you have -- you develop a pattern of life. and as points out in the new york times ar article, guys doing jumping jacks could be perceived as being part of an al-qaida traping camp. there was this sur recollection of a hodgepodge of the ie rab peninsula.

what i saw, when i was there, there are unexploded cluster mu sooechls. people we are saying to me he's perfectly safe. but you just balmed a bed win individual. america can't seem to hit the people you claim to be fighting. so if you're going to bomb us because there's the fie fighting against you. the most dangerous is giving people in yemen or somalia or pakistan a nonie dee logical reason to fielgt for it. personal venn delta is much more powerful. that's real to me. >> that's provocative of morning murder.

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nchtsd i can say that the types that the u.s. has been involved in, there hasn't been a single collateral death because of the exceptional proficiency, presipgs of the capableties, as well. >> that's one of the chief terrorism advisors. here's pbs at a front-rien documentation. jere jeremy, you just got back from tr and here is a reporter pointing to where the american citizen's son and a shall have-year-old boy was from denver was killed, take a look.

>> his son and eight of his friends were sitting here having dinner. they were targeted by one rocket here and another rocket here if you see this big circle. another rocket would have been on this they say an moern sitz zebs, of course. blank bank. >> jeremy, you talked about murder in the third degreer before when you talked about it. and obviously, that's a loaded verb because it carries certain moral and legal ramifications. why do you go pursuit on one of those enemies and guns people down in a mall, they've murdered those people. when the obama administration sets a policy and patterns of life are enough to drop missile on feem or to use ac-130s to

spray them down. >> if you go to yemen where i was and you have the list and photographic evidence as i do of women and children that represent the vast majority of debts, those people were murdered by president obama on his orders because there was believed to be someone from al-qaida in that area. 21 women and 14 children were killed in that strike. we know from the cables that david petreus conspired with the president of yemen. it's mass murder when you sail we are going to bomb that area because we believe that women and children are there?

basically, if you were on the road or you ran a railway for about 60 cays, you were attacked. they killed thousands. thousands of french si vail yans. wsh they murdered. >> no reasonable thern thinks that db. >> no, i believe we've been to those paces. let me move from that for a seconds. here's a historical question and move to the legal question when we're dealing with american citizens. american citizens who are on if

list are covered by the constitutional provi constitutional provision chlts within clib deliberations that do you think of that? >> well, let me just first say that targeting civilians is wrong with rmt to silt zens. citizens have a right in the court of law to reduce your review. that's one of the important things that's going on on here. even with respect thost citizens, it does not have a to have a court review, its decision to kill or the standards that killing is based on either before the fact or after the fact. the in fact, due process. this is our attorney general that said this, the due process, 5th amendments of the guarantee of the right to life which

cannot not be taken away. an to read the fifrt amendment that way is to stripe it from its essential meaning. i do want to talk about legally where we are. in the 1960s, at a time of great national turmoil, congress passed the freedom of information act. and the goal was to provide boet transparency and depoit republican debate. >> when the government told half truths. distortions. at that time, the congressman who came up earlier said that the freedom of information act was intended to against the government and promoting its successes. we have a debate taking place right now because the

administration is choosings to max effective disclosures. >> jack and josh, i want you to get a response out right after a break. follow the wings. hey, it's me -- water. i was trying to figure out how i could get rid of 99% of the lead i can pick up traveling through your pipes, and then... [ click ] it just clicked. get it? it clicked...

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i'm watching you. oh yeah? well i'm watching you, watching him. [ male announcer ] try the new 360 investing dashboard at e-trade. we're talking about the article in the new york times this week that had some new details about the drone program and in a variety of countries around the world. josh, you wantsed to say something? >> yeah, e did. there's a lock long history. you have the entire confederacy, it's difficult to imagine abraham lincoln prosecuting the war that he did. i think that barack obama exists

not because of the kpon continuum. >> i agree with you a hundred percent. part of what i was saying is this is cheney's pipe dream. congress is largely boxed out and also asleep at the wheelg. >> well, that's right. >> i just met with the senator who has a legally bound operation. and he said that the add mirn strags will not provide them with an explanation as to how americans -- >> congress can force them to do it. >> well, i agree with it. that's what i said. they're asleep at the wheel. you have congress that wants its duties forever. >> i mean, this is a key poin, right? the question is a, how much do we know about this, such that we can have a public debate.

how much is being capped secret, how much, you know, needs to be kept secret in success of that ie mount. and then how much are elective rep zerntives and are charked with oversiegtsd in very specific ways particularly that came out of a longs period of national soul searching at the -- in the 1970s. the treasurer cannot write a check to fund anything unless so appropriated by the add min tlags. part of reason that there is a back cry, the american people aren't getting what they want. >> when you say controversial, you mean narrow?

>> if you look at polling approval. now, i think obama has normalized assassination for a lot of individuals would have been out raged. we've developed a incredible blood force. >> no, wait a second. in terms of -- wait a second. i think that -- let me just say that the counter argument here in terms of blood thirst, look, there's people out there plolting on the u.s. and there are two ways to deal with that. one is go in big. the other way, and this is essentially what the administration seems to be highlighting when they talk to these reporters is specific, targeted, limited strikes. and look, if you have to choose

between one or the other -- >> it's not just those two choices. what i would argue for a number of these areas is our policy is actually giving a greater insent ichl to people or to become rebels against the united states. i think that we are lay k the ground work for the next year. once you've made the objectedive decision that you want to get rid of these guys, we've only got two ways to do it. in the alternative. le me me that these guys is the contested thing. right? one of the big questions is we don't know who we are striking in lots of cases. that seems to be be part of the issue. that's exactly right. and one ovt things that came out

in the new york times article was this very important thing that you started the programoff with, chris, was the presumption that military-age males in targeting zone are come bat tants unless they are proved innocent when they are dead. that's the thick that changes for many of times. one, we're establishing a very dang ougs precedent. >> we're going to keep returning to this issue. meet romney is calling for the u.s. to arm opposition forces in syria. we're going to turn to that next. yoo-hoo. hello. it's water from the drinking fountain at the mall. [ male announcer ] great tasting tap water can come from any faucet anywhere. the brita bottle with the filter inside.

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children and there have been some very gruesome pictures of the aftermath. russia and china stone walling the international community remains unable to reach consensus about what to do. secretary of state hillary clinton accused russia of propping up the syrian regime. >> we know that there has been a very consistent arms trade even during this last year of violence in syria. coming from russia to syria. >> their position of claiming not to take a position is certainly viewed in the security council in damascus and elsewhere. >> the united states has dispatched to pursuit the peace plan. so far, there have been few signs of progress. some republicans have called on the u.s. to take a more active role on the conflict.

at a campaign stop on thursday, mitt romney said the u.s. and its allies should begin arming the syrian rebels. >> i hope the president takes an idea of leadership. the idea of following the peace plan, that has not gotten us to a point where the people in syria are safe. nor is it advancing a leadership posture that worked with our allies there to make sure -- and our friends there to make sure that the insurgents have the capacity that they need to protect themselves. >> joining us now, you've been here before, thank you so much for coming back. >> good morning, and thank you for having me. >> you're very plugged in. i want to start telling us what is the situation right now? >> i think one of the ways in which we can describe a very complex situation is to talk about the asymmetry of power

between the regime which relies on terror. and a popular uprising which for all of the talk of it turning into an armed resistance or an armed revolution is still, by e enlarge, defenseless. the regime continues to rely on force. and, at the same time, it continues to gain grown and momentum. not only in the hot areas which, is deemed the capital, but even in places that haven't been seen with the regime. for damascus, they've started a civil strike. shopkeepers have been closing their shops. the country is also demonstrating the biggest demonstrations.

the ally community which is behind the regime -- >> of course. because that is -- >> exactly. it's a result of the hulu masker. and finally, and this is just important for me, personally, among the christian community, one of the last heroes of the syrian revolution actually passed away three days ago. he went back and died as a result of regime bombardment. he's a catholic from damascus. >> the reporting that has been coming out and the reporters that are there, which has become the capital revolution, there does seem a desire. there's a cease fire.

>> there is a desire. it only turned rebels only armed after there have been 10,000 estimated deaths. the question is what is next. and i think that's the terrifying thing for people that are watching the region. anti-aging cream undeniably. it creamed unbelievably a $500 cream and now women have made regenerist microsculpting cream also unscented. women love it. in original and also fragrance-free. support team usa and show our olympic spirit right in our own backyard. so we combined our citi thankyou points to make it happen. tom chipped in 10,000 points. karen kicked in 20,000. and by pooling more thankyou points from folks all over town,

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♪ power surge, let it blow your mind. [ male announcer ] for fruits, veggies and natural green tea energy... new v8 v-fusion plus energy. could've had a v8. what is next? it looks like the current status quo is unsustainable and people are pillaring for creating the status quo. but it also looks like there is no will to have some coalition or intervepgs. it's very hard to see asahd backing down.

what happens next and how is there a way out of this that isn't going to be massively destructive and involved a lot of bloodshed? >> i don't think there are a lot of options. i think we are heading, and i think we already started to see the beginnings of a civil war. i'm wary of the term only because sometimes it started to talk about two parties as if they're equally empowered. and that deaf in thely doesn't reply. there is some kind of administration to talk to president putin to make sure what we have is a solution and what happened. >> yeah, explain that. >> so when the president basically steps down, there is not complete and total regime

change, we'll only get rid of the family in power. >> it's a dictatorship cross ban. >> yeah, basically. and i think most people in syria would like to see a political solution because that he don't want to see any further destruction in the country. however, this has to -- it has to be out of the picture. >> what should the u.s. be doing, jack? >> it should not be arming rebels. if you're concerned about having a civil war and you're not yet convinced that there is, the way to ensure it is arms. and the worst of all, is to encourage a small-unit operations on the ground in s, y ria. >> i think it will not solve the problem. definitely. and i think provided we know

that -- i mean, i'm just wary of the variant, the political solution, would any plan be with a form of intervention, of some sort. >> we don't know, actually, if the russians actually say please step down. so we need to have a plan b. and this plan b to my mind shold not just be arming the free syrian army. there has to be some kind of an international coalition. that's what i think would actually work. in case we reach a dead end, then we have to be able to work through an international coalition from the nato. and let me just talk about one thing because we have all of this with a military divide.

everything that that was asked for did that the american leagues are here. america is the most powerful country in the world. >> career korea, as a precedent was terrifying. >> you can actually embark on an intervention. the russians seem completely uninterested and without that, there's going to be civil war. i take your point. it's very, very difficult to see an american getting involved. whether it's an actual cop vengs or the e vebts of the past 12 kbreer often cured us of this idea. it's something that it's not doing -- >> i don't think it's a regime phase, if i could say. if i can interject, immediately thank you.

american troops on the ground most people who have talked about intervention said this is going to be something much more circumscribed and much more specific to kwhang the rules to -- to change their realities on the ground. the reason why he has been so defiant is because he has the upper hand militarily. so just to neutralize his military capableties vmt and then afterwads, you say well, now, tough leave. you need to step down. >> and then the big question is does it stop there? it is opening a door. >> people are worried about civil war morally. an also in terms of the strategstra teej interests. and the neighboring countries of syria. it spilled over to lebanon.

>> i think the other point with this, and it was the case in libya, too, is the u.s. is out sourcing part of its clandestine opportunities and you have mercenaries achbd you have these four foreign forces that are very dabbling in it. we've been down this road before and it seechseems like we're he down it. >>. >> thank you. >> so what do we know now that we didn't know last week? my answers after this. [ sighs ] forget it. [ male announcer ] there's more barbeque time in every bag of kingsford charcoal. kingsford. slow down and grill.

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so what do we know now that we didn't know last week? we know that the obstacle to another path to marriage equality has fallen. on thursday, a federal appeals court said that legal benefits can not be denied. and we know that the three-judge panel declared that the federal law that defines marriage as

between one man and one woman is unkons toouconstitutionalit andw that is headed to the supreme kour. and we know that the median age of people to elect mitt romney is 56 and their median income as well. and we know that iceman owns one of the largest producers of titanium and he wants to store the waste in underground dumps in texas and he has been sued by the state of texas by failing to clean up contaminated superfund sites. we know that one of the most important things we can do is to shine light on the power brokers and bring some accountability back to the election process. and we know that mayor bloomberg is going to start a

ban against large drinks, and this after he banned smoking. and we know that his banning sugary drinks over 16 ounces will slim down new yorkers and we know that milkshakes and alcoholic beverages are not going to be included in the ban. and we know that rather than putting a tax on the drinks would be more effective and less ease is i to ridicule, but we know that any politician does not want to raise taxes for any reason, ever, and also we know that i have a book coming out called "the twilights of the elites" and it is about the crisis of the authority of american life and the national distrust of the pillars of our institution and some of which we talked about to i d.a.ly be doing book events in june 13th and 14th and i'd love to see you there or any of the upcoming up

appearances around the country. and you can see that on facebook.com or on my website at msnbc. and i will begin with you colonel jack jacobs what you know now that you didn't know at the beginning of the week. >> well, one of them has to do with the money to politicians, and one asked me why i don't give money to politicians and i said it encourages them. we should be weary of that. came back from the united kingdom, and they are absolutely running around with their hair on fire at the moment, because think are so terribly concerned with and economically hooked with europe, and we are extremely complacent here because we are so far away and trust me, if europe goes down the tube, we are not far behind and we have already seen some problems here in the states. >> we have been covering the situation in the eurozone and greece and elections slated

there, and i could not agree more that the biggest determinant of the outcome in the fall for the election for particularly crass political reasons is whether the eurozone survives. what do you now know now? >> two critically important things that we have been talking about. president obama's role in targeting killings, and why the administration is claiming few to no civilian casualties as a result of the civil yian killin and maybe it is because of the way they are counting them. and anybody who trusts president obama as judge, executioner should feel the same about mitt romney and hillary clinton and everybody else who would have the authority to do the same thing. >> well, that is the double-edged sword of that article is on the one hand of

somebody saying i will take full responsibility of this and signing off and looking at my pen and looking at the intelligence and if the buck stops with me and i am the one held accountable and the other side is that maybe you trust president obama to do that but it is creating a precedent some day that there is somebody that you don't trust, and is that the precedent that you want to trust and that is the gist of the article. jeremy. >> i know now the disagreement of disagreeing with josh trevino this person over syria. >> don't do it again. >> well, we have had a long twitter fight with each other, and occasionally agree with each other, and an off of the beaten story with a company known as blackwater, and the head of the company eric prince moved to the united arab emirates like a good american christian goes to the middle east to escape justice and there is a trial of the five people underneath him in virginia, and they are accused

of 30 felony accounts for weapons charges and trying to bribe federal oishl ifofficials watch that, because they are all going to say it is part of the cia official operation. >> and i will say that now i know what is interesting about going on south of the border. the mexican elections taking place in mere weeks july 1st and the recent polls of one of the major newspapers there is that the leftist candidate is within single digits of the likely winner. so that is very interesting to see. >> my thank s s to the msnbc military analyst colonel jack jacobs, and karam nachar and jeremy skahill as well. and coming up is melissa harris-perry, and she will talk

about rich white men and why they pour money into the campaigns, and uber preview of what happens if the one man, one vote is going to meet the court ruling is struck down. that is melissa harris-perry coming up next. thanks for getting "up." ght to y this hot dog cart and set it up someplace." so my parents went to bank of america. they met with the branch manager and they said, "look, we've got this little hot dog cart, and it's on a really good corner. let's see if we can buy the property." and the branch manager said, "all right, i will take a chance with the two of you." and we've been loyal to bank of america for the last 71 years. i've been fortunate to win on golf's biggest stages. but when joint pain and stiffness from psoriatic arthritis hit, even the smallest things became difficult. i finally understood what serious joint pain is like. i talked to my rheumatologist and he prescribed enbrel. enbrel can help relieve pain, stiffness,

and stop joint damage. because enbrel, etanercept, suppresses your immune system, it may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, and nervous system and blood disorders have occurred. before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. tell your doctor if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if, while on enbrel, you experience persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. [ phil ] get back to the things that matter most. ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biolog medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biolog medicine if you made a list of countries from around the world... ...with the best math scores. ...the united states would be on that list. in 25th place. let's raise academic standards across the nation.

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any day can be an adventure. that's why we got a subaru. love wherever the road takes you. wow, there it is. this morning my question -- is anyone actually doing anything about the embarrassing state of child poverty in america? plus the supreme court will soon announce the most anticipated decision since "bush v. gore." and speaking of voting will politics undermine one man, one vote, and the backroom billionaires and the rich white guys buying the election. good saturday morn, i'm melissa harris-perry. before we begin, i