committee, possibly our first ceo at the table and my colleague at the nation magazine and the associate editor of the wisconsin newspaper capital times and author of "uprising are, how wisconsin renewed the power of protest from madison to wall street" from john nichols. mitt romney and the gop announced this week they had raised more money, a lot more, than president obama and the democrat t romney campaigned along with the romney victory fund, a joint account with the republican national committee, said combined they had raised $77 million in the month of may alone. the obamas and the democrats were beaten by nearly $17 million. taken from the results this week from wisconsin where republican governor scott walker survived a recall election partly by outspending his opponent seven to one. the fund-raising numbers offer democrats a glimpse of their nightmare scenario for the fall campaign. conservative billionaires and groups poured money into the recall in wisconsin and there were 24 statewide victory centers, making more than 4

million phone calls according to the wisconsin republican party. along with romney's fund raising, wisconsin has democrats re-examining obama's electoral strategy. should they try to compete with republican notice costly ad wars or focus on mobilizing likely democratic voters on the ground in key swing states? obama campaign senior adviser david axelrod talked about the daunting fund-raising gap on thursday after walker's victory in wisconsin. >> be the first president to be outspent, not because of what romney's raising but because of the super panks. you have people like the koch brothers so active in wisconsin saying they are going to spend $400 million to impact on this race, that's more than john mccain and the republican party spent in total last time that is a source of concern. >> all right, money is one of the headlines coming out of the week politically, both in wisconsin and nationally. and there a he is a lot of debate, more debate than you would think about the role money plays in determining leak toral

outcomes, in the political science literature and the people that observe. i'm curious, john, having covered wisconsin as closely as anyone, how determinative that was seven to one margin? >> it was determinative but wasn't determinative in the way that i thank you lot of people will analyze it. one of the senses is you look at the money at the end, how money is spend spent in the final stages of a campaign. scott walker's money up front is what mattered. emily's list used to say early money is like yeast that meant that you can raise more money. scott walker always knew he would have plenty of money. the critical thing was knowing allowed him to spend huge amounts in november and december. and there's this sort of mean that's developed now where people of wisconsin didn't like recalls. they didn't like the recall because scott walker spent millions of dollars in november and december and january telling them the recall is a really bad idea. >> that was his messaging right in the message was about the recall as procedural tactics. >> i may have made some mistakes

but don't do this to me. by the time a countermessage came up in may, i want to emphasize that so you have got from november to may, we got to elect a democrat, they never came up with -- >> no money on the air the other side? >> most amazing thing. scott, who i have known for 20 years, would go on fox all the time and he would say, oh, i'm being battered, i'm being brutalized. it is the roughest thing i have ever seen. send your money to scott walker.com. you think, wow? a really rough situation for this poor guy. be there in wisconsin and turn on the television and all i saw was scott. never so you a countermessage. >> you look at ohio last year the policy issues, supporting unions, collective bargaining were on the ballot, we won. so i think that shows when

people are able to debate policy in policy arenas, not via a procedural maneuver, that we are in good shape. >> i wonder if that ends up being -- i guess, mike, to press you on this seven to one margin, ends up being exculpatory or an excuse in wisconsin or allows people to not look -- well, directly -- here is paul begala, this is his tweet about the lessons of wisconsin, which is one wisconsin lesson, dems must not allow the right to outspend seven to one if we want to re-elect boat us potuss that th take away? >> there is never just one take away. the republicans in wisconsin did a great job framing this in terms of the whole debt problem and impulse among a lot of people toward austerity u people in this country are concerned whether we can live up to our financial commitments, very concern about the deficits and the debt and a lot of debate in wisconsin was very smartly channelled in that direction.

here is scott walker, i'm taking a stand against runaway spending, against money we can't afford to spend and i think that context is important as well. >> always -- the degree to which they are turning the shift, we should be clear that a lot of the outside money group -- outside group money spent in wisconsin wasn't because of citizens united a lot had to do with a loophole in the campaign finance law of the state of wisconsin, which was he could raise unlimited amounts for this window during a recall election. >> the best way to look at wisconsin is to say that every loophole, every new development, all came into play. >> right. >> reince priebus you can the chairman of the republican national committee is from kenosha from wisconsin, a failed state senate candidate -- >> john nichols talking trafrnlt. >> no he is a failed senate candidate running the national party. but he knows -- this was a desperately important fight for him. much more important i think for the dnc, for a variety of reasons. so he brought everything to bear there. and i think what's important to

understand is that a huge amount of money came in on both sides. it was just so much more on the republican side and the republican money didn't come in wait that people assumed it assumed, they bought a lot of tv. they did have a lot of tv. amazing advantage on tv. they also bought a lot of ground. it is vitally important to understand that, you know, in the city of racine, one example, working class town brutalized by the industrialization, in 2008, there was a 72% turnout for obama. in 2012, for the recall, it was 78%. they actually -- the democratic ground game brought it up but in the suburbs around racine, it was 80%. >> there was countermobilization. one of the things that i think why -- wisconsin obviously is a very specific set of circumstances. i mean, generally as a rule, if you run an election and then run the same election with the same candidate 16 months later, in the absence of some massive world historical catastrophe, is not surprise to get the same

result. leak tore rats don't change that much. politics don't change that much. it is not surprise and we should be clear what is contingent, what it portends for what november is what the ground game, the combination of billionaire money in postcitizens united era, grassroots mob hallization and activation from the tea party groups are still very organized even if you don't hear that much about them and then the coordination of all the media and institutions of the right, talk radio in suburbs of milwaukee, some of the most conservative suburbs of the north, that is what the game plan looks like for november. here is just to get a sense of how much the outside groups are playing in the presidential arena, not just the regular election. these are the number of ads aired by groups in 2012 versus 2008. may of 2008, outside groups aired 10,062 presidential campaign ads. may of 2012, they had aired 123,062 ads, an increase of

1,123%. had percentage of ads that are negative, 200825% of ads aired were negative. interestingly, mostly were positive. in 2012, it is 86% that is the vision of what this campaign is going to look like. >> said many times already and i think it is 100% accurate this is going to be the nastiest presidential campaign we have ever seen. talking about the less son was wisconsin, what we saw here we should look at moving forward it is how nasty it was. we all read the stories about people not talking to each other in the same household and neighborhoods. i mean it may not be quite that bad nationally but i think that is a preview of the kind of very bitter partisanship that is going to define the 2012 presidential. >> the gender gap as well. women, wisconsin women, went for the opponent. they went for the recall. they are looking toward november to say we matter and our issues matter. and when you talk about the families not talking and those of us who are friends with

couples who are duking it out on facebook, awkward. facebook does reveal the crazy politics of everyone you know if ways that can sometimes be a little -- >> one of the thing you can't quantify or hasn't been done yet is the fact women are saying, okay, you just wait. oh, no you didn't. you just wait. so, what role that means as far as women mobilizing and taking to social media, taking to the polls, that is a wildcard. >> as an organized group. i want to talk about that, because the great accomplishment in 2008, the obama campaign did, and natalie, you worked on these sorts of things, was changing the composition of the elector rat. i want to hear from the folks running the campaigns. going to bring in dnc executive director patrick gaspar, right after this. emands a great presentation. so at&t showed corporate caterers how to better collaborate by using a mobile solution,

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i want to bring in patrick gaspar, executive director of the democratic national committee and former office of political affairs in the obama white house. thanks for joining us. >> good morning, chris, great to be here. >> my first question is how worried are you about the money? we have been talking about the money here, played a clip of david axelrod, one of the closest advisers to the president, talking about the money, how worried are you about the money and what are you gonna do about it? >> well, when you're running a national campaign, you always have to be concerned about the resources that you have in order to get your message out and to animate your activist. and clearly, as axelrod noted, we are going to be the first sitting president in the history of this republic to be outspent by our challengers and that is mostly a function of the supreme court decision. so of course, one has to be concerned but also very

encouraged by where we stand now. chris, we have over 2.2 million americans who contributed to this campaign and the last month alone inmakers raised $60 million. and we received money from 150,000 americans who never contributed to our campaign before. while we are concerned by the outside spending from the super pacs who are throwing 90% negative ads to try to misrepresent this president's record, conversely, encouraged by all the amazing support we are seeing from our activists across the country. >> i have read some conflicting things about small dollar donors and you can view the small dollar donor numbers in two ways. small dollar donors, a lot of people who gave in 2008 who have not give than time around, which you can view as a negative or you can say there is a lot of low-hanging fruit, a lot of untapped resources there. what's your feeling about where small dollar donors are this time around? >> clearly, all americans have gone through a very, very tough

period, we have all been focused on the bottom line, the economy, jobs, making sure that we can pay for tuition for our children and take care of our seniors. so it is only natural that folks have not been as focused on the campaign this time as they were during the historic primary in 2008. but we are seeing slowly but surely, folks turning on shows like yours and understanding exactly what the stakes are in this election them understand our president is trying to continue to grow the economy and move us forward while mitt romney tries drag us back to the policies that got us into this crisis in the first place and as they come to that realization, they are giving more, they are going out and knocking on doors, registering voters, so quite confident and convinced that the small dollar donors, who were the lifeblood of our campaign in 2008, are beginning to tune back in and providing the infrastructure that we need to be successful. >> i have a question. i'm sorry to step over you. in the same vein of the small

dollar donor, looking at the fact that democrats have been outspent, looking at the fact that there are so many people who look at wisconsin as just such a demoralizing statement on, well, i have but this might to give. i will always be outspent. my money will always be outmatched. and then what is my role to play if i can't be a big player? is that going to hurt president obama, just with the morale of otherwise who would seek to donate. >> that is jamila bey, by the way. >> everyone knows who jamilas great to see her and have her talking about the oh, no you didn't constituency a little while ago. that's great question. i will say, jamila, that i believe that the million folks in the badger states who signed petitions a few months ago and then went out and tried to pull out a vote for mayor tom

barrett, just an amazing elected official, i don't believe those folks are -- at all. clearly, folks are stepping back and taking pause when they realize their candidate was just outspent by the tune of seven to one in wisconsin but more important lakers spending ratio to look at who actually was spending. win appreciate that the koch brothers alone put more than twice the resources into that contest than mayor barrett was a able to raise and spend, tough ask a broader question, whether you are a democrat, republican reason, independent, a broader question what this means for our body politic. so i think that one has to be concerned about that kind of influence, but at the same time, the energy that we saw out in wisconsin and the message that was sent will continue to kind of perm nate in the politics in the state. >> that was definitely answer bud i want to just reiterate

this point, because i think it is an important one there, is a dilemma here, on the one hand, the campaign itself and myself as a journalist, because this is one of the most important developments in this race, want to talk about the amount of big money being poured in because you want to activate people to being aware of what's happening. at the same time, there is the threat of demoralization, the idea it only further embeds people's sense of powerlessness over the direction of the country. so, i think that is a really interesting point to sort of look at as we go on. natalie foster? >> one of the silver linings coming out of this, no american household heard about wisconsin without hearing about money and politics and we are very clear now how a post-citizens united world is going to look. what is the long-term plan for the democrats to get money out of politics? >> well, first, natalie, let me just say it is great to see you. >> you, too. >> natalie played a terribly important role, as one of my

former colleagues hoping to develop the struck strung and platforms we are using now to communicate to millions of americans. so thank you for all that you did. and natalie, as you know, this president has been clear from day one going back to his time in the state senate in illinois, to the u.s. senate term, to the u.s. presidency that we have got to do all that we can to rebalance in politics and elevate the voices of average folks into the day-to-day workings in capitol hill, which is why he lifted up a number of reforms and have such a strong reaction to the citizens united ruling. on our side, we are quite confident just as in 2008, we had 123 million average americans contribute to our campaign, we know those millions of voices are going to be there, providing resources for us again but more important than just the checks that they wrirk as you know, natalie, 98% of all of our

donors participate at the rated of 250 or less, which means that in addition to writing checks, they also are on the front lines of our grassroots mobilizations. people aren't just writing checks, they are going out, knocking on doors, rebel gistering voters and persuading others. while chris notes perhaps a little demoralizing to some to hear about the large numb tsunamis of money spent in wisconsin, what we have found when we talk to our activists, after the the -- be even more engaged and forceful in laying out the contracts between the kind of small d democrat say that our president, our party is trying to build. >> pat tricks you make a point that i think is worth repeating just briefly, which is in 2008 it, it looked like the small donor revolution was possibly an alternative, a grassroots way of dealing with the influence of big money in politics without

regulation, the fact that the internet and the democratization of fund ranging were change. now citizens united showed there has to be legal statutory steps. john nichols has a question for you. i want to talk about what this electorate will look like after 2008 and 2010 right after we take a break. for three hours a week, i'm a coach. but when i was diagnosed with prostate cancer... i needed a coach. our doctor was great, but with so many tough decisions i felt lost. unitedhealthcare offered us a specially trained rn who helped us weigh and understand all our options. for me cancer was as scary as a fastball is

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in the areas beyond ground war, rural areas in the western part and northern part of the state, they got a lot of tv, not a lot of physical contact, counties that voted for mike dukakis, clinton, clinton, gore, kerry and obama voted republican. and it strikes me that there's something going into the presidential race that democrats have to start thinking about as regards how they communicate with small cities and rural areas and i'm wondering where you're thinking on that and how you approach that. >> that's great question, john. democrats have for some time been challenged in how they communicate directly with rural america. obviously, we did exceedingly well in a rural turf and in urban turf in 2008 campaign. fortunately for us, we have never left those precincts. between election cycles, we were out knocking on doors and pushing message and

communicating with voters on all the important reforms over the course of the last years in in rural pennsylvania, rural ohio, rural wisconsin and other states there is an infrastructure that still exists there that we will lean on the next eight months. if i could, i want to push back a bit on the notion that somehow, their operation outclassed democratic operation on the ground. i think it was you, yourself, in the prelude to the interview with me who suggested that one of the reasons why voters in wisconsin had soured on the recall is because republicans had such an early start in their communications, before there was a democratic nominee, before there was even a democratic primary, scott walker had been able to invest tense of millions of dollars communicating to those very same rural voters in a conflict-free zone. accident have a competitor at that point where he was able to

make his case about the he have cass so i have using the recall method and to go to frank's point earlier, recast the conversation in which which he was standing up and defending average americans from the debt load. mitt romney and those in the republican primary against him spent millions of dollars burning each other down, running a scorched earth policy in states and having the kind of conversation that turns people off from politics, saw fresh turnout in their primaries and their caucuses. they weren't the grassroots infrastructure and mobilization that natalie helped us build in 2008 and beyond. they are not going to have that kind of an advantage in wisconsin or anywhere else in

this country heading into the fall. >> patrick, i have got too much respect for you to let you go without addressing the rural component of that though. i think you spoke about being on the ground in the precincts, but i'm very interested in a core message. what do you say to-to-these folks? it has been very clear to me as i have covered the fights in ohio, wisconsin, other states, that there is a necessary submessage or component of message that has to reach out to rural areas and small cities and i did not -- i saw this in ohio during the referendum fight last fall, very, very effective. i didn't see it as much in wisconsin, i'm wound about this fall, what do you do? you look at your swing states, ohio, pennsylvania, michigan now they are talking about wisconsin, iowa, a lot of rural there. and i don't necessarily see it being spoken to as effectively as needs be. >> well, john, i appreciate that you pressed the question and gave me an opportunity to be a little bit more expansive here. look, the president actually has

a great record when it comes to the aspirations of voters. we all know that the foreign committee is actually expanding and job growth inz those areas has been outpacing growth in other parts of the economy and we also know that in those communities, the manufacturing base has been a big part of helping to build and establish the middle class. you know, john, over the course of the last few months, from the mild of 2010 to now, we have grown manufacturing jobs by 500,000 new jobs in this economy. a burst above 12%, which we have not seen since the mid-1990s. in addition to that even in the rural economy, folks are dependent on the success of the automobile industry, it has an impact up and down the supply chain. last month, chrysler posted a growth of 31%, gm, 1 11%.

>> welcome to the auto report. >> john challenged me. >> i want to give you a provocation about strategy here there is often attention in directing resources toward getting those swing voters and independents who are true independents not leaning independents and how you mobi mobilize your base and change the leak tore rat. i want to make an argument for why the president should just forbet about independent voters right after the we come back from this break. instead i got heartburn. [ horse neighs ] hold up partner. prilosec isn't for fast relief. try alka-seltzer. it kills heartburn fast. yeehaw! [ male announcer ] how could a luminous protein in jellyfish, impact life expectancy in the u.s.,

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when you scratch the surface of independents, most lean one way and call themselves independents and behave like partisans. the actual percentage of people actually independent is he is much smaller than the percentage of people that all call themselves independents. when you get to the small group that are true, not leaners, those are most moved by macroeconomic factors, who are most likely to basically see an election as a thumbs up, thumbs down, i'm doing well, a ima he doing poorly, the one most insulated from messaging. so my point here is given the economic situation of the country which is, at this point, largely outside of the president's control in terms of what the monthly johns numbers will be from here to election day, that's with a congress that won't pass anything and with ben bernanke sitting on his hands, that the real place that the campaign must folk discuss in reworking the magic economy in 2008 to change the nature of the electorate, register voters to get out the base because it is

going to be very hard to control the main factors that are going to persuade the true independent he is. that is my argument. >> you said so many things there, chris. first thing this president has not given up on the notion that working with congress, despite all the obstruction, the tea party folks, we can pass a jobs bill and put 1 million teachers, police officers, firefighters, construction workers back to work. not giving up on that. that obviously can have an impact on the jobs numbers this year and beyond. let's face it chris, true independents that don't lean one way or the other. see this in the data mind coming out of the wisconsin election, scott walker won fairly handily, but voters gave barack obama a nine-point advantage coming out of election day in that state there are true ticket splitters that exist out there furthermore, i would say for those independents, it is not just a thumbs up, thumbs down

verdict that they are rendering on the economy. fortunately for all of us in a democracy this is still a comparative exercise. rig >> right. >> i should have said this when answering john's question, not just a question of barack obama's record, which i think is robust and really moved us from a period of crisis, but it is also a question of looking at what the other side is offering, what mitt romney is offering to lure voters to intd pen dents. i think when you step back and you look at his embrace of the ryan budget, when you look at his poor job performance in massachusetts and poor record of outsourcing jobs in the private sector, step back, democrats, independents alike, look where we have come from, where the president is taking us, where he is pointing us toward and compare that to the kind of race to the bottom that mitt romney

and the republican party is embrace right now. and i think that independents, democrats and republicans alike, are going to decide to stick. >> a referendum. natalie foster. >> that's right. >> another important part of the leak tore rat this year is the underwater voter. i mean, there are, you know, one out of every three homes in america sunder water. you drive down the street and one out of every three are people who are living in homes they can't afford and that is 40 million people, if you expand that out, like 18% of the electorate. we just launched a hope for homeowners campaign to -- as congress has the option now take on refinancing package that would allow homeowners who are current to renegotiate with banks. many of paying upwards of 7% when that is not the going rate. i think there is a lot that can be done to focus on these voters, i would love to hear, patrick, what do you think the chances are of this moving and what's -- how do we electoralize

the fact that americans are feeling this pain? >> as chris pointed out, we are severely challenged right now by republican leadership in congress that would rather go out of session and try to run out the clock on this election instead of helping homeowners who are underwater and students who need their interest rates to stay at a lower percentage and americas need to go back to work. so that is the conversation, natalie, we need to drive hard on the doors and on the ground in this election. the president has put forth a number of common sense, bipartisan, used to be such a thing as bipartisanship in d.c., common sense solutions that would get at the he foreclosure prices that we are seeing it continue in places like nevada and in florida and i think that voters, when they are made aware of the solutions that the president is offering versus the obstruction from the other side, that it's going to occur to them

they have got to do something to break -- break the fever of washington, d.c., re-elect this president. >> elect a democratic congress if they want fever broken. patrick, finally -- final question here, are the republicans intentionally tanking the economy for electoral gain? >> look, chris, that a's i woul say this. if you look at the pronouncements made by mitt romney and john boehner and others in the wake of the job numbers last month, showed we grew 69,000 jobs in the private sector it did seem there was inordinate cheering taking place and does seem as if folks are attempting to sit on their hands right now instead of moving forward to put americans back to work. so, i think that your vires and all americans need to impress upon mitt romney that this is a

leadership moment answered ought to be calling on republicans in congress to pass the president's measures. >> patrick gaspard, executive director of the democratic national committee, thanks for joining us. fire from the right and left over white house leaks. that's up next. from wlap [ male announcer ] this... is the at&t network. a living, breathing intelligence teaching data how to do more for business. [ beeping ] in here, data knows what to do. because the network finds it and tailors it across all the right points, automating all the right actions, to bring all the right results. [ whirring and beeping ] it's the at&t network -- doing more with data to help business do more for customers. ♪ ♪ pop goes the world ♪ it goes something like this ♪ everybody here is a friend of mine ♪

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president obama unon friday was asked to respond to criticism about apparent white house leaks behind highly detailed reports in the "new york times" and "newsweek" on his secret kill list and a cyberattack on iran's nuclear enrichment program. here's some of what he said. >> my attitude has been zero tolerance for niece kinds of los angeles and speculation. now, we have mechanisms in place where if we can root out folks who have leaked, they will

suffer consequences. in some cases, it's criminal. these are criminal acts when they release information like this. and we will conduct thorough investigations, as we have in the past. >> with a growing drumbeat of complaints about the leaks from both the right and the left, just a few hours after the president spoke, attorney general eric holder appointed two u.s. attorneys to investigate possible unauthorized disclosures of classified material on the white house and congress. holder did not specify which leaks but said in a statement that leaking can, quote, compromise the security of the this country and all americans and it will not be tolerated. and president obama's three-plus years in office, he has prosecuted more government officials under the 1917 spawn act than all previous administrations combined. joining us now is michael hastings, the author of the operators, wild and terrifying story of america's war in afghanistan and reporter for buzz feed.com, chief

correspondent, tom -- >> and rolling stone. >> rolling stone. yeah. yeah. i think this story is fascinating. i think the -- what's happened essentially is we have gotten a whole -- on one hand, i think what's happened in the last few weeks in terms of the rev leagues about these programs have been good for democracy in the sense we should know what's going on. >> there you go. there you go. >> essentially, what's being happen, a war is being conducted in secret and we have gotten some blockbuster details about the nature of that war who is running it and how it is being freighted and i think those accounts have largely been favorable to the president because, one suspects, most of that information disclosure is coming from people close to the president, right? >> at least a significant amount seems to be, whether they are confirming it -- we don't know exactly who provided what details. >> obviously. >> i just want to take a step back and do a little thought experiment with your viewers.

>> we love thought experiments on this show. imagine the world the last eight years without leaks. we would not know about the drone program, we would not know about enhanced interrogation, we would not know about the covert war in iran, we would not know about the things critical to decisions we have to make as informed citizens. what's happening right now and right here, off perfect storm, the right, where mccain has been -- senator mccain the most vocal criticizing the white house and also on the left, folks like myself, glen greenewall, criticized the white house for its selective leak and coalesced around and prompted this investigation. >> is this the white house wanting to have it both ways, frank? one level, they have been conducting essentially a secret war. the problem from the political perspective of conducting a secret war, you cannot get any political points from a secret war, so the way it seems to square that circle is to let everyone know you are conducting a secret war. >> yes think there is so much

suspicion about why this leak is happening. as he said there is criticism from the left and right, there is only one way to analyze the los angeles and one thank it is coming from people supporting the president and think the leak he is makes them look good. i think what john mccain said about this has resonance. >> here is lindsey gramm. >> you have had three leaks of intelligence that paint the president as a strong leader. >> one of the things i think is also interesting about this at the same time that you're getting -- that some of these program programs the white house wouldn't admit they were happening, the con tell, you can't -- a drone striking people, right in the pakistani press reports on t any time that happens, here is jay carney being asked about the drone

program. has basically been the line from the white house for years. >> [ inaudible ] >> i'm sorry, can you be more specific? >> president obama said that drone strikes have not inflicted huge civilian casualties. how can the administration be so certain -- [ inaudible ] >> not going to acknowledge or confirm any of that. >> the former director of national intelligence, dennis blair, said i believe yesterday that drone attacks [ inaudible ] u.s. national security interests than good. does the white house -- any opinion about these drones? >> we believe our relationship with pakistan is essential to fighting terrorism and

terrorists. >> jamila, a response to this that i want to get, right after the break. wake up! that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm. for half the calories plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8.

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jameel bayh, want youed to respond. we played long montage of jay carney being very done jie about the existence of a drone program. >> right. for me, my question is, first of all, as a journalist, well, let's get to the heart of the matter, let's talk truth here and when he is not willing to be forthcoming, it makes me step back and go, wait a minute, are we actually dealing in issues of national security? is this you not wanting to look bad? you wanting to put out the narrative that president barack obama is the strong, fearsome leader who can level terrorism with the stroke of his pen or whatever he so declares? we don't know that anything that will make my job as a journalist, get to the heart of these matters, share that with the american people, anything that makes that harder is a bad thing. so, my hackles are raised about this way and the to get in and

really see us pushing back. >> one of the things that i think is important to highlight lite as we talk about this, daniel patrick moynihan where a book about secrecy, secrecy a form of regulation, it is a kind of conservative libertarian argument against secrecy. the history of government secrecy around national security is even if it begins with genuinely legitimate reason, for instance, wouldn't want the president to go, say, the cia is currently doing this bit of espionage, right? it clearly places where secrecy is appropriate. because it is such a powerful tool it is almost always overused and keep things embarrassing secret. that is the point you made about the power of los angeles. >> in a democrat snircydemocrac concerned about things done in our name without our consent.

what we talked about coming out is not some huge national security revelation. we are learning that president obama watches videos, that he engages in sitting around a table and has discussions about how to do things. >> how individuals will be killed? >> is blunt stuff but not troop movements in pakistan. a great new book out about drugs and the extent to which they are used, a lot of research in u.s. international labor day the u.s. and things we should be talking about as citizens and if that's where it's got us where it has come, this is a healthy thing, i worry that unfortunately what we will end up in is a political debate when we actually have gotten a little bit of information important. >> the dean backet from the "new

york times" made this point, right that essentially now we are having a discussion not about the substance of the stories which have some very important and interesting revelations but about the -- >> friday talking about this on air with alex's show. >> now with alex wagner, every day monday through friday. i got a phone call with someone in the administration, very, very sensitive to what we were saying on air and a surreal conversation, we went back and forth. at the end, he is like, look, we might prosecute, there might be a case against sanger, david saern sanger. i don't want you to investigate more reporters, i want to you lay off. the war on wehistle-blowers is totally crazy. >> is a term the administration or justice department used in prosecuting those accused of leaking documents. i want you to explain what that term means and defend the use of it right after the we take a break. [ male announcer ] if paula ebert had her way,

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from new york, i'm chris hayes, with me, "new york times" columnist frank bruni, jamila bey, michael hastings, author of "the operators" and john nichols from the nation magazine. we are talking about leaks, attorney general eric holder announcing he has assigned two u.s. attorneys to look into leaks after a week of recriminations on capitol hill about a series of stories, some of which appeared in the "new york times," about secret programs in the white house and the obama administration and you talked about this term of war on whistleblowers, which has been invoke ready. we mentioned at the top of this topic six people have been prosecuted under the 1917 spawn act for leaking classified

material, more than all previous administrations. >> nine cases in u.s. history since 1917, six have come in the first term of the obama administration. >> whistleblower has a very specific meaning, right? in some cases -- i guess the point is what is the intent of the leak. >> right. >> is there any place for prosecution of leaks ever? >> i'm going to say -- i guess if someone is revealing specific troop movements and direct correlation, someone died because of it and it was top secret, shouldn't have done it say okay, maybe you want to look into it. i'm very, very pro-leak. we all should be. >> keeps us all in business, right? >> exactly. i think one of the issues we have here is that you have these lower ranking, midlevel to, you know, sort of upper midlevel officials who are being prosecuted and then you have these guys who are talking to woodward, allegedly or probably, or other big-name reporters and they are getting away from it. the problem suspect that the

cases are going to be successful, the problem is it creates this chilling effect across the board. if you uncover some nefarious program, reading our e-mail, open, wait, that was uncovered and they were reading our e-mail, then you are not going to be willing to go public with t. >> creates costs for journalists who are engaged in national security. >> going through your e-mails, phone records. >> is journalism stenograph, if i a power? go down and take down what they say to us officially or dig into things? look for stories that are controversial and risky? much of what you have done controversial it is risky, it pushes envelopes. we are in the midst of a presidential campaign, i know there's politics on both sides of this white house and mccain politics, some fundamental, citizens should know what is

being done in their name in a presidential election especially, how we bring the national security debate back under the control of the voters. >> do you think the "new york times" was manipulated in this? one of the krcritiques happenin at your paper is this issue michael raised, when it looks -- you have accounts that appear to be quite -- make the president look very strong and resolved while sigh mum tainiously awful, the assumption is it is coming from people closer to the president and there for example the paper is essentially being used as a channel to transmit an election year campaign. >> these stories can't come from anywhere, some of the sister ries, but someone close of and supportive to the president. the only way the stories will come to you you can the question how do you play it? let's talk about the kill list, which we agree was riveting, a story when you are reading it interpret it two different ways. i think the people providing this information think it did make the president look strong, decisive.

important to remember the context here. this is a president who really vigorously sold the anniversary of bin laden's assassination, who has got an economy that he can't control, so he is trying to put more of his chips on what he has been like as a foreign policy leader as he goes into the election. if you read that story the way it was written by the people at the times, superior journalists and aware of these dangers, you can come away from that story thinking he was strong or the guy so critical of secrecy in the bush administration is engaged in something that makes that look like child's play. >> yeah. >> we haven't talked about this, political sort of reasoning behind this too much, but look, when senator john mccain is out there hammering obama on this, clearly, a, he still hasn't gotten over what happened in 2008. but also, like where was senator mccain went 60-page classified report about the war in afghanistan was leaked a couple years ago that supported his policy position? he wasn't calling for an investigation. >> this is always the case in washington with los angeles, which is leaking is something

terrible when your opponents do it or information you don't want out. and it is -- >> until it serves you. >> and this gets to a much deeper question, which is we have seen amazing reporting turned into a book, one thing pernicious happening in post-9/11 america, there is never an incentive in government to do anything but create a larger catchment area of secrecy. there is own downside risk. if you say we are going to stop calling these things classified, everyone who works in the classified system, this is from reporting, will tell you there's too much classification, things are overclassified, that is what moynihan's book was about. >> always the impulse in washington. >> and i think accelerated after 9/11. i don't see any way, this is a really deep question but what is the way, what incentives are

there on the other side? >> let's look at what candidate barack obama was saying. he wanted to bring an era of transparency to the white house, let the american leak tore rat know what was happening, what was being done in their name. and he sort of followed in the footprints of the administration before. >> say one thing when you are on the outside -- >> but people bring this up, my response is to point to that, what to me was a key pivot moment, the declassification, release of the oil sea memos. followed up on the promise they came out and the amount of right-wing backlash, dick cheney was on every network talking about how this would put people's lives in danger. it doesn't mean they were wrong to retreat from that, but there was a very -- early kind of punch to the face that happened, like in the prison yard, that -- on this issues of secrecy i think had an effect on how they conducted t. they are did retreat, photos about abu ghraib that were supposed to come out, they decided not to come out.

i sat down with the king of los angeles, julian assange, wednesday hon house arrest because assange has a phrase for what he calls it information aparthe apartheid, you have the government bureaucrats have access to this information probably shouldn't be classified and they know more than the rest of the public. so assange's response to this growing secrecy was wikileaks, was these document dumps. that was one of the first huge scandals where we started -- leakers were terrorists. this is a huge story. >> here is another response, why don't we get a congress with checks and balances presidents? >> this is really important. congress has completely abandoned the playing field on this issue except for when it's politically advantageous. i want to talk about the question question of how can you change the dynamics of the incentives for secrecy, after we take a break. wake up!

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how do we change this dynamic? used a very pro-to be voktive term from julian assange, informational apart tichld the broadest possible context, we have less and less privacy as individuals. one level, there's less and less privacy for citizens and more and more secrecy for the state. right. >> and those two trends create, to me, a kind of distaupic

vision of the future, wit only entity that can keep secrets, can protect information and hold close information are the most powerful players. that can keep protect information and hold close information are the most powerful players. average citizens have their entire life open to corporation and individuals. how do we reset the incentives toward secrecy that drive the whole system in total. it is not just the obama administration, congress left the playing field. the courts tend to endorse a lot of secrecy. >> there is a barn consensus behind this the pentagon, the military community you the -- any of the communities that are class fig information are very powerful. and there is no -- i don't know if you can. i don't think there is much of an incentive for any of these bureaucracies to say we want to keep this secret because of fear

of embarrassment. 99% is classified to prevent embarrassment. there an actual study with a real figure. but studies throughout the year that looked at this stuff, especially looked at cases where government officials would resist freedom of information act requests and wasn't because -- mainly because of embarrassment, not because it jeopardizes national security. >> demand for less secrecy has to come from voters, we are all sitting around saying we wlik to see less secrecy, voters trust the press almost less than they trust the government. >> let me bring in the enemy they trust less, congress. why do we so distrust congress? why do we as an american people distrust congress? because it is so definition a.m.ly useless. it's there. they are present.

at a moment like this, you think black to the 1970s, when the pentagon papers were bouncing around from newspaper to newspaper. members of congress, democrats and republicans, called committees into session in the middle of the night and started reading them into the congressional record. we had a congress that felt it had a responsibility to check and balance the government. as our representatives it is just not there. >> totally true, i want to say before i leave it, we have squandered some of our own authority, we are the ones demanding that this information be shared and we are saying we can be trusted to talk about this information, analyze it in a responsible way. me so many ways, chase trivial stories, i think we squandered

our authority. >> you mean the press? >> we have to earn voters trust the way people -- >> can we agree that we live in a moment where the initial check and balance on the executive has stood down congress. now the 50th state, where does the challenge come? >> civil libertarians, aclu. the only way. they have been pushing these. >> ron widen, for instance, senator from oregon, good on these issues as well. he has been pushing for things, jan schakowsky good. >> our friend ron paul some credit. very concerned about this. >> this bring mess to the final points, the lindsey graham, john mccain taking to the microphone is blatantly political. does seem like there should be incentives for conservatives, libertarian-minded conner is vat thoifs are fearful of the state,

fearful of the state authority, fearful that the government going to muck everything up, to be at the forefront of this, particularly when they take a shot at a democratic president. i wonder if we are seeing this at all. >> that also clashes with the general republican idea, america has to have this robust foreign policy, do no wrong and can't even question that. when sore tore john mccain is the only one of the national debate bringing up bradley manning's treatment, we are at this weird, bizarre -- but no i think what you are saying is exactly right. >> we will switch topics from secrecy to the world of food. michael hastings, rolling stone contributing editor, thanks for joining us. appreciate it the government's involvement on what you put on your plate and in your glass and whether that's good or bad, when we come back. ld... ...with the best math scores. ...the united states would be on that list.

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michelle obama joined the chairman of the walt disney company, bob iger, for disney's announcement it is banning from the children's tv channels, radio stations and websites any advertisements for foods that don't meet disney's nutritional standards. >> with this new initiative, disney is doing what no major media company has ever done before in the united states and what i hope every company will do going forward. when it comes to the ads they show and the foods they sell, they are asking themselves one simple question. is this good for our kids? >> not just private companies addressing nutritional issues. new york city officials are still playing defense against critics dekrigz the rise of the nanny state following mayor bloomberg's announcement on the ban on sugary drinks larger than 16 ounces in restaurants and movie theaters. thursday, new york city health commissioner thomas farley responded.

>> this has been presented as being very heavy handed. this is providing default maximum value for a portion it is not saying no to people it is saying are you sure? do you really want that? >> i want to bring in dennis derek, the founder and president of corbin hill farm, a farm he brought to grow fresh fruits and vegetables from the south bronx and back with us at the table, natalie foster, co-founder of rebuild the dream, fresh produce here, a shot of that brought us to by dennis from the farm. it gets at a loaded and interesting issue. >> very much so. >> is there a width in it of this sort of -- of the settlement house, of late 19th century do-gooder white progressives telling the people

in the inner city slums that you are living your life terribly, you shouldn't be doing this and shouldn't be doing that and a reaction people have to that, looking at me skeptically, but a whiff of this. >> i was listening to dr. farley, this is such a tiny, tiny thing in the context of the scope of the obesity problem and the childhood obesity problem and i have been watching the reaction to this since it was proposed by bloomberg and dr. farley and i just cannot figure out what the hysteria is b the people being hysterical are not the ones whoever buy 32 ounces. >> that's trchlg you think this is being ginned up? >> i think a lot of it has to do with reactions to the mayor himself, in the third term, a third term that he sort of rewrote the rules to get, he has been a very activist mayor, done a lot of good things for the city, i think, i think a lot of people are just responding to his power and willingness to wield it. >> i would like to say when you think about it, it is just one piece of the puzzle. say the mayor has been very much

served in terms of what happened to the transfat and getting that out of the restaurants, the calorie count. very few people realized he changed the nutritional value of all the foods served in the government -- by the city government it has had a major impact not only on the elderly but even prisoners, believe it or no. >> the school vending machines. >> et cetera. et cetera. you think about this topic, you have to think about it -- i think about it in a different way, i think about it in the fact we like to talk about obesity and $1400 per person but i put it in the context we have some choices to make. are we going to spend $4100 a year in terms of what we use for health costs and lost wages per person who's obese? who is gonna pay for it? >> that's right. absolutely right r >> i think this is a conversation we need to have. >> government steps in when an individu

individual. >> this is mayor bloomberg making more or less that point the "today" show. i thought a good line. urge not banning you from getting the stuff, if you want 32 ounce, the restaurant has to put it in two glasses, not taking away your freedoms, not something the founding fathers fought for. >> a provision the bill of rights people don't remember, an ad in the "new york times" brought by the center of consumer freedom next saturday, showed mayor bloomberg is an old woman, saying new yorkers need a mayor, not a nanny. you live in harlem, say for full disclosure, my father works for the new york city department of health and works on these issues in east harlem. i'm curious, i think there can be -- what is the reaction in the community you live in? >> my reaction, i take a look at something like east harlem bilingual head start program, the sign outside the school this

is a had -- -- a message to head start parents and sugar free, not drug-free zone but sugar-free zone and understand what that is about, the impact on our children. >> particularly our children of color because when you look at -- between 20 and 25% of children entering kindergarten in new york state are obese or overweight. there is an epidemic, something needs to be done, all mayor bloomberg is doing is putting city policy in line with what good public health policy is look at the rights of obesity, the rates of what used to be called adult onset diabetes, 'cause 12-year-olds are coming down, the rates of asthma, the rates of sleep apnea.

drinking water when they enter can't get to the soda fountain soon enough. we need to start changing the way things are acceptable to do a trough of sugar water is not good for anyone. >> david from, i love it when i agree with him, doesn't think the campaign like when they took on tobacco. the generation long campaign highway fatalities, we had to make personal behavior choices. >> seatbelts and speed limits. there was a bunch of different regulations, a bunch of different levels, looking at the public health date data. i should say again, i disclosed the fact my father works for it take it with a grain of salt,

the new york city health department has done remarkable work affecting a bunch of metrics about the public health of new york and the health thinkness of new yorkers, they have been very data driven and impeer cam and rigorous, intervenning we low birth weight babies, diabetes, calorie counts, smoking, et cetera. there has been real progress there and i want to talk about who is on the other side of this fight, who is paying for the ad that makes mayor bloomberg look like a nanny? who is attacking michelle obama when she is talking about healthier food? what this political battle over food looks like right after this. do you see it ?

there it is ! there it is ! where ? where ? it's getting away ! where is it ? it's gone. we'll find it. any day can be an adventure. that's why we got a subaru. love wherever the road takes you. wow, there it is. one of the -- one of the reasons that the politics of food and the way that our food system works and the health affects it causes, advice sa advice obesity and othw -- vis-

the solution requires so many different parts. >> quite a bit. >> as natalie was just mentioning. tell us about the work you do off farm and that farm -- use that farm to distribute food in the south bronx, if i'm not mistaken? >> we do we grow limited amounts of produce at that farm, i will talk about that later, we actually right now, in the first year, started with four farmers, second year nine this year, working with as many as 15 farmers who have never, ever brought any of their produce into new york city. a quick fact, less than 5% of all the produce grown upstate ever ends up in this market aiding the people. >> less than 5%. >> of what's grown upstate. so, what we have been able to do is bring together these farmers who have absolutely no access to the market here, for one reason or the other, which we have aggregated the produce, they are now growing for the low-income community and we were able to aggregate that the first year,

served 200 people in the south bronx and harlem, last year, 450. our first distribution this year will be next tuesday and we have 801 people who have signed up. >> the distribution is -- is there a farmer's market? >> not a farmer's market. we in a sense represent the farm everies as the farmer's market but take it directly to 23 -- 26 different distribution sites, wherever it is convenient for a community august group of people within a particular neighborhood, we set up a distribution site there >> and what is the food landscape like in the neighborhood you are working in? >> terrible. we do surveys every week and it is interesting, because of the nine items that we on average will give to our farm share members, usually we can only find six of those items in the supermarkets or the grocery stores and in most cases, we find that the prices are at least, for those six items, equal to if not greater than what we charge for a share. >> those items are? >> we talk about green he is and lettuce and starches and the

staples. so for instance, coming up, we will have something like potato potatoes, make sure we have carrots, we also include fruit in every single share. >> one of the things i think when you look at this sort of initiative, at the macrolevel, the thing that has to change is a lot of regulations, right? have to be ways that the government changes the way that it interacts with the food system, the farm bill, which is currently making its way through congress. i think there's a really interesting story that reuters told a little bit about, about the y in which michelle obama's initiatives on this -- on this score have been pushed back at -- by big food, basically, right? because if you try to take on big food, more often than not, you lose. that's been the rule so far. even small things, changes to voluntary guidelines for school health nutrition, for instance. how -- how uneven is the playing field in this policy area? >> about as uneven as it can get. i forget what the figure s if

you just look at the advertising and marketing dollars that big food, whatever you you want to call it spends every year it is phenomenal, phenomenal amounts of money and there's no wait government can really, financially at least, push back against that especially in these times when we are worried about what we are spending. it is not a fair fight. >> in the legislative battle over the voluntary grade lines for school, health newt trirkts public interest group spent $70,000 lobbying, which is what big food spent in 13 hours during its -- >> and i think this is a big disconnect between d.c. and the people. the farm bill is being debated and we are talking about how many people will be kicked off food stamps, not the millions of dollars going to big corporations or big food, that make plenty of food, just not the nutritious food. the corn syrup r >> all federally subsidized. >> exactly that is not being discussed as the farm bill moves through congress, instead, how many millions of dollars can we take out of the food stamp

program, which is the only way that so many people have it. >> the particular loss of all the food stamps is really significant, for instance, in new york city we are talking you about the food pan tris, 27% of the people who go to food pantries are employed. 57% of that group, full time. and they need that kind of subsidy. new york city and i think lots of other communities, suffer from what i call food catastrophe that nobody talk bus. >> what does that mean? >> we charge $15 a share per week, which is very reasonable, equivalent tough pay about $23 for that in the grocery store. many people can't afford the 15. i can tell you a little anecdote. we have one particular person on snap, every week, because we -- with us, you only have to pay one week in advance. the third week of the month, she always puts her share on hold, because she has run out of money. and the next week, she comes back. and this just tells you the kind of things and how people -- not only that it also tells you something very responsible about many people that we don't think

about in terms of low-income people in terms of what they want to spend their money on when they have availability to do it. >> i think one of the arguments, i mean, one of the ways in which big food has pushed back against -- some of the stuff going on in attempts to change the landscape, the policy landscape, the economic landscape for healthier food is this idea of consumer preference, right, that essentially this is telling people what they should and shouldn't eat, it's getting -- here is the anti-soda tax commercial that was run by americans against food taxes during the super bowl. >> feeding a family is difficult enough in today's economy. now, some politicians want the government telling me how i should do it. they want to put new taxes on a lot of groceries i buy like soft drinks, juice drink, sports drinks, even flavored waters, trying to control what we eat and drink with taxes. give me a break. i can decide what to buy without government help. the government is just getting too involved in our personal lives. >> government needs to trim its

budget fat and leave our grocery budgets alone. >> wait. wait. wait. a lot of reaction to that i would like to get to all of t we have got to take a very quick break. [ male announcer ] from our nation's networks... ♪ ...to our city streets... ♪ ...to skies around the world... ♪ ...northrop grumman's security solutions are invisibly at work, protecting people's lives... [ soldier ] move out! [ male announcer ] ...without their even knowing it. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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[ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪ just played an anti-soda tax ad that got people at the table riled up. in the 24 state these tried soda tax, they were beaten back in every state. the one state passed in washington state you managed to get a referendum on the ballot, next year, defeat it had. it is very hard. part of the reason, when you say to people on something like this you will have to pay more money for this item it is a difficult sell. >> i love the steelers, i will always watch football and that ad made me so angry when i saw it, because, here's the thing, i'm a mom. i want the government telling corporation what is they can and cannot put into stuff that's going to get into my body, going

to get into my kids' body. don't have a problem with the government helping to make sure we are safe terror and eating better and being healthier. the issue with that, the government is trying to make it hard for know feed my family with taxing, did you hear what the lady named? soda, sports drink, flavored water. water tastes like water. >> even flavored water. >> when you're trying to feed your family, let's talk about food policy. when you're talking about sugar and carbonated drinks, that's not a food. if the government wants to tax it a little bit more so that they are not dealing with amputee ought 20 years old and what we see on the horizon with public health, that's not even the issue. >> just interject, linking soda consumption directly to obesity and diabetes.

>> there is data about the large amounts of consumption. >> you immediately get to this irrefutable that sugary soda are a piece of the puzzle. >> and people drinking more calories. >> what i find offensive, forget about taxes, not sure i'm fan of soda tax, per say she says i don't need the government telling me what to put in my body or my kids' bodies. what does she think the soft drink industry is doing with billions and billions and billions of ads? >> right. >> she is being conditioned, she is being brainwashed, essentially, to want those products, somebody is telling her what to put in her body and it is the soda industry. >> i look at that ad. i look at the entire supermarket and i think of my community and i say to myself, my god, she has choices, she can make bad choices. we don't have a choice. in our community we don't have the opportunity to make good choices because the access isn't there. most items are just not there >> when you can suck down in

liquid a day's worth of calories for 2 or 3 bucks before you start cluing, there's a problem. there's a problem. we need to start thinking differentably it. >> i was at a friend's house last night and, you know, in brooklyn and he had the original coke bottles, which they sell in some brooklyn super markets and they are 4 1/2 ounces or something i want to say, 6 1/2 ounces. >> 6 1/2. >> so small, that was, of course, was a portion. that's part of what we have seen over the -- >> i'm really glad you use the word portion, because there's been ban a lot of interesting stuff what is different for us today than 20 years ago when people weren't as fat? it is not so much exercise or a lot of the other things we focus on it is how much we eat and the expected portion size. what i love about what bloomberg and dr. farley did is they went right at portion size them said 32 ounces is ridiculous.

i think it is not a specific measure is but a metaphor for what's important. >> is interesting when you know the the exercise and calorie because there's -- the traditional way of understanding, there's input and outputs and two sides of the lemoner in terms of obesity. one of the things we have seen is a shift in emphasis in michelle obama's campaign from food, from calories to exercise. and there is no stroint other side telling people to exercise. one of the things about big food -- >> yeah. >> one ways the couch industry comes up with ads -- >> barcalounger. >> i think it is critical. that is she looked at food as preventive medicine but include exercise. not very often do you hear the whole concept, that it is not -- stood necessary but not sufficient we need the other side of the coin, which has to

do with the deficit. >> thank you for bringing are throw produce. >> the tray itself is the shape of the county. >> thank you, we will enjoy strawberries. what we should know for the week ahead, right after this. i'm used to having irregularity. i feel like that's normal. if you are not feeling like trying this on, that's not normal. activia helps with occasional irregularity when eaten 3 times a day. feeling regular to me was a new feeling... i came to find my 'new normal' and i love it! ♪ activia and try new silky, fruity activia harvest picks. another way to enjoy activia. a, the appearance. amber. [ jim ] b, balance. sam adams has malt sweetness, hoppy bitterness. [ jim ] c, complexity. pine notes, grapefruit notes. only believe your own pallet. go taste them. starts with arthritis pain and a choice. take tylenol or take aleve,

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just a moment, what you should know for the week ahead a quick person a.m. update. may have heard me say before, i have a book coming out on tuesday, called "twilight of the elites, america after meritocracy" the cries sive cyst of authority in american life and national mood of distrust of our institutions. something we talked about today, available for preorder. i will be doing book events in new york city this week tuesday, a reading at the upper west side barnes and noble in new york city and, we event at the new school and appearances around the country. find them at facebook.com/twilight of the elites, up on the website, like to see you there not able to make it in person, i will do a

video chat on wednesday, i will be taking questions, go to up msnbc.com. attorney general eric holder assigned two u.s. attorneys to investigate leak he is of classified information after the "new york times" reported details of the obama administration's program of targeting killing in its attempts to disrupt iranian nuclear programs using cyberattacks. the article raised a great hue and cry from republican bus the gop didn't seem to care when it was the bush administration pushing out leaks to further its case for war with iraq. you should know while official secrecy is surely necessary in some instances, the history of secrecy in and the national security state these secrecy tends to metastasize, grow and spread until it covers much of the knowledge about what it is our government is doing. you should know that oversight and democratic accountability are impossible unless we know what exactly our government is doing in our name. you should also know that one of the lessons we learned from the bush administration is that if we only get information about the government's activities

through leaks from the government itself, they are likely to be unreliable. you should note the has charged six government officials with leaking classified material, more than all other previous administrations combined and headed toward a very strange world, which individuals are without privacy, but the state can maintain secrecy at all costs. the senate voted on thursday to begin debating a farm bill, expected to cost almost a trillion dollars over the next ten years. you should know since 1995 -- this is really important -- just 10% of subsidized farms, the industrial scale wealthiest ones have received 74% of all subsidcy payments. the current bill cuts 4$4.5 billion over ten years from the food stamp program, and democratic new york senator kristen gillibrand has proposed cutting subsidies to crop insurance companies. it's probably a good idea to pay

attention to details this is a one of handful of bills that will actually pass congress this year. finally, you should know this brilliant tribute to mr. rogers exists. ♪ do you ever imagine the scary things ♪ ♪ do you ever imagine thing, the things you would like to have ♪ ♪ did you ever see a cat's eyes in the dark and wonder what they were, what they were ♪ ♪ did you ever pretend about things like that ♪ ♪ did you ever grow anything in the garden of your mind in the garden of your mind ♪ ♪ you can grow ideas in the garden of your mind ♪ ♪ you stood to be curious about many things. you can think about things and make believe, all you have to do is think and they'll grow ♪ >> created by symphony of

science's at pbs digital studios. makes me nostalgic. we try to grow things from our garden of our minds every week. i want to find out my guests think we should know. let's begin with you. >> i'm still reeling from the purple cardigan. it will take me a while. you should know that the greek elections are coming up, again. i believe they are a week from today. and i mention it today because we talked about the upcoming presidential election, the importance of big money and all that. to a large extent, and both the democrats and republicans, obama people, romney people know this, the way the election plays out, has to do with the way the economy plays out, beyond anyone's control. a rot has to do with europe. pay a lot of attention to europe in the coming weeks, spanish banks get their bailouts. this is a lot of what will happen in november 2012 is going to be dictated by what happened. >> thousands have agreed.

we have been talking about it a bit on the show. really true. the fate of barack obama, particularly his political fortunes lie largely with the bureaucrats and banks and voters of -- >> judgmemr. rogers, go pittsbu. that's where i'm from and tribe of tigers coming up in the fall. month mr. rogers fans. coming up, the national association of blank journalists coming up, a little more than a week away. looking at getting news no more people, particularly in wake of the "times-picayune" announcement that they are only going to a three-time-a-week publishing cycle, looking at the way the news changes and the convention happening in new orleans, a lot of news about the business of news, and about the way people receive news and, you know, those of us who are

journalists what we can be doing in the future that will come up. >> i've heard that's a really great conference. i think in philadelphia last year if i'm not mistaken, and folks should check it out in the industry. >> oh, absolutely. >> what should people know? >> that in 19 days, the congress will doesn't act, student loan rates will double. this at a time when the job market is the worst students have seen. this is the next big bubble, when this bursts, we are in trouble. they are angry and they vote. when they set up in 2008, you saw what happened. when they sat down in 2010, you saw what happened. this will be a very important issue this week as congress figures it out. >> 19 days, don't double my rate hashtag, and a lot of mobilization. rebuild american dream. and people should definitely

stay tuned for that. john nichols, what should people know? >> chris hayes has a darn fine book coming out. i've read it and very excited about it. but you should know that just the other day, the national trust for historic preservation put out a list of most endangered buildings in america, and on that list for the first time ever, all of america's post offices, because the federal government continues to nickel and dime and undermine our postal service, for reasons that have nothing to do with the dysfunctional post service, everything to do with dysfunctional politics and we're talking now about preserving buildings central to civic life. we ought to be talking about preserving the institution that is essential to public life. >> we've talked about the post office on this show. it's a topic i do want to revisit. it is -- it's something -- u.s. a shared public universal civic institution that is at the center of a lot of people's

lives and also something that is increasingly rare in this outsourced privatized world we live in. i want to thank frank brunei, jamilah bey, natalie foster, and john nichols. thank you for joining us. we'll be back next weekend saturday and sunday at 8:00 eastern time. we'll have enron whistle blower, sharon williams, and larry lesing. up next, "melissa harris-perry." new york stop and frisk policy under increased criticism. a big march planned. we have reverend al sharpton and a panel of teenage boys to discuss it. and the politics of black hair. melissa in the background awaving her hair. people are curious about her hair. a whole lot to talk about. "melissa harris-perry" next. we'll see you next weekend here on "up." thank you for getting up.

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this morning, the politics of $7.25 minimum wage in america long overdue for a makeover. the complicated case of c.c. mcdonald, and what happens when a woman serves time in a men's prison. if i were to ask you, where is the kitchen, would you know i was talking about a black woman's hair? but, first, the debate over stop and frisk. effective police tool or civil rights violation? good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. i want to bring you up to date on a couple of stories we brought to you yesterday. in syria, at least 35 people killed in the last 24 hours by the