accountable for his crimes. >> his lawyer says sandusky plans to appeal. >> he was disapoimgted by the verdict, but obviously he has to live with it. >> also last night monsignor william lynn, a former cardinals aide in philadelphia was convicted of endangering children, becoming the first roman carolina coastline church official convicted of covering up sexual abuse by priests under his supervision. right now i want to bring in new york times column nift. l.j. williams, and co-host of the great syndicated radio show "this week in blackness." pulitzer prize jose. and comedian yacht michael ian black coauthor with meghan mccain of the soon-to-be pulitzer prize-winning "america, you sexy pitch:in love with

freedom." i didn't read the standards. i just read what's on the prom ter. we'll find out soon in my ear or an e-mail whether that was pronounceable. let's talk about the news, sandusky's conviction. my thoughts -- it was really interesting. in this morning's articles there were two. the convex of sandusky and monsignor lynn. and my feeling reading these two and spending some time and reporting on the catholic church and the sex abuse scandal in the church is that the kind of person we thing about as a society are the sanduskies, are the predators, are the monsters, and the people we don't think about are the monsignor lynns, the people who are facilitating or allowing the predators do what they're doing. and it seems to me that we have -- we're all going to feel that sandusky's getting what he deserved. that he -- this is just dessert

and i feel that way. certainly what he did was horrific. but it also seems like it's very easy for us to engage in a lot of cheap moralism at these moments and not ask hard questions about how was it that he's able to exist in penn state for as long as he was. >> that's the real tragedy. like you said, you have sandusky, you have these individuals that come might these heinous crimes. there are still other adults who are aware, who got notice, you know, or some kind of inclination that something may be going on and did not take initiative to protect the virtue and the physical body of children, you know, and i think this is a case where we can use this as a teachable moment and as an opportunity to say that as a society we are not only going to prosecute and hold accountable but how they react. >> i think in the case of the

catholic church, i think we have over the last ten years, i think people have become very aware of what you describe, right, the fact that it was a case where often it was not just a cover-up but this sort of allowing preeftds to move them from parish to parish. i think people under that they weren't just the pedophiles but priests and bishops and so on. there was an article a few weeks a ago about horace mann and an elite private school. people have become accustomed with it in the catholic church but continue to be surprised by it in other contexts. they're like, we can accept that but how could joe paterno be corrupt? >> that's interesting. it's true. it poses a little bit of a

theoretical challenge to people who thought about the church abuse scandal as growing from the nature of the church. you and i have engaged in these debates about the source of it whether the fact that it's priestly celibacy or all-male hierarchy or whatever it is. when you look at penn state or horace mann, it spreads out. >> it's more of an institutional problem in general than a catholic problem. >> is it financial-based? is it that these organizations are so concerned about being sued and being taken for everything they have that there's kind of an institutional blindness as a way of protecting themselves? is that the main thing? >> i think it's that, but this is a point you bring up in the book too. i think that's sort of the overarching institutional issue but on the perj level, people have close relationships with the abusers usually. >> yes, exactly. >> and if you're a catholic bishop, right, you're supposed to see yourself not as just a

shepherd of your flock but as a brother to your priests. it's the same with the football coaching staff. how hard must it have been for joe paterno to acknowledge himself as somebody as a co--hero was actually a horror show. >> i feel like -- you know, the word we don't talk about that clouds all of this is homophobia. the fact that we have a church -- and i'm catholic. i was raised catholic and, you know, confirmand baptized and all that. i think that's such a authentic that we're talking about it. i remember when i first heard about mcqueary. is it mike mcqueary? >> mm-hmm. >> the first thing i thought was

it's horrible that it happened. it's just tragic. you ask yourself if he had seen an older man with a girl, would it have been different? >> i question it. i mean i think you're right. i think there is a bit of homophobia but i think it has to do with the larger issue of sexuality. >> absolutely, absolutely. >> in that we know these things are crimes, we know these things should be reported. my kids are smart enough to know, if there's a fire, they call the fire department. why aren't we that smart when it comes to sexual crimes? >> i do thing that part of it is the taboo and the horrific nature of how deep the taboo is. taboo for a reason because it's horrible, but the way that that -- you know, when you read the account of mcqueary, it was clear that there was some shame and panic that surged through him and made it difficult. shame obviously is when you talk to survivors of sex abusers. shame is obviously something that hangs over everyone like a lady cloak. that is the thing that makes it

difficult. >> i think it's also true that american culture has changed on this issue over the past 30 or 40 years. >> yes. for the better. >> yes, for your the better, absolutely. but if grow back and look at sort of the cultural attitude surrounding these things, there was a sense that, you know, this was less, i think, a big deal than people today assumed rightly that it is. this is -- in a male/female case like the roman polanski case in the 1970s. obviously this still holds true in europe where polanski is seen as not sort of a fugitive from justice but an unjustly accused figure. there is and there was perhaps more strongly in the past a sense that, well, kids should be okay, they should. make a big deal. uncoal so-and-so with his bad habits. >> exactly. and there's this weird discourse. stay away from so-and-so as opposed to a more explicit

conversation. i just want to make this point. the other thing that i think is really messed up with the way that we deal with this issue now is what we see, the easiest thing in the world is to be a state senator and stand on the floor of the florida house, for instance. if you watch legislator, half of what they do is come up with penalties for child predators. you have to register, you can't be near a school, can't be near this or that. it's the easiest vote in the world to take. it's totally cheap to do it, even if it's the right thing. i think in some ways the policy has been counterproductive. the hard thing do, the really morally difficult thing to do is blow the whistle inside an institution and we've put all our emphasis and rhetoric is on this very -- this sanctimonious fervor that we have in this criminal conversation of the people who have done it as opposed to having the conversation about the much,

much, much more difficult thing is to find the moral courage and report it inside the institution at the time it's happening and to blow the whistle when it's happening. >> do you think it also has to do with who the victims are and believing the story of a child? you know, watching last night and listening to them talk about people believing the victims' stories, right? so you then have children who are the victims of this, sort of having to tell a story to an adult and people believing or not giving children the benefit of the doubt. >> in the sandusky case, these were teenagers. they were functioning adults. >> this ties together with one of the most notorious predators in the church. the victims were selected because they were in some ways marginal. they were in broken homes or they had a difficult social circumstance. where's the investigation go from here? we'll talk with nbc national correspondent michael isikoff right after this. y powerful coln

is backed by an equally powerful and secure cloud. that cloud is in the network, so it can deliver all the power of the network itself. bringing people together to develop the best ideas -- and providing the apps and computing power to make new ideas real. it's the cloud from at&t. with new ways to work together, business works better. ♪ thin coffee shops. people who i thave been out of work. you can with new ways to work together, business works better. tell it wears on them. narrator: he's fought to pull us out of economic crisis for three years. and he still is. president obama's plan keeps taxes down for the middle class, invests in education and asks the wealthy to pay their fair share.

mitt romney and his billionaire allies can spend milions to distort the president's words. but they're not interested in rebuilding the middle class. he is. i'm barack obama and i yoo-hoo. hello. it's water from the drinking fountain at the mall. [ male announcer ] great tasting tap water can come from any faucet anywhere. the brita bottle with the filter inside. thor's couture gets the most rewards of any small business credit card. your boa! [ garth ] thor's small business earns double miles on every purchase, every day! ahh, the new fabrics, put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? the spiked heels are working. wait! [ garth ] great businesses deserve the most rewards! [ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! what's in your wallet? [ cheers and applause ] i would not say i'm into it, but let's see where this goes.

[ buzzer ] do you like to travel? i'm all about "free travel," babe. that's what i do. [ buzzer ] balance transfers -- you up for that? well... too soon? [ female announcer ] fortunately, there's an easier way with creditcards.com. compare hundreds of cards from every major bank, and find the one that's right for you. creditcards.com. it's simple. search, compare, and apply. lookin' good, flo! feelin' good! feelin' real good! [ engine revs ] boat protection people love. now, that's progressive. call or click today.

national investigative correspondent michael isikoff who's been covering this story since the beginning. michael, how are you doing? >> reporter: very good, chris. how are you. >> good. i don't think the verdicts are surprising given the facts that you had been reporting from the very beginning and given the testimony there was. i think the question is where does this go from here? i mean sandusky, we know what kind of man sandusky was and what kind of things he did. and the question now, it seems to me is, how did -- how was sandusky allowed go as long as he was. >> reporter: absolutely. and that's why what's to come is

more significant. attorney general linda kelly made clear last night that there is an ongoing investigation. at a minimum into other victims of jerry sandusky. but there's also into the investigation into his enablers. remember, we already have pending perjury trial charges against two top former penn state officials, the athletic director, tim curley, the former vice president, gary schultz, both of whom were informed about that night that mcqueary -- shower incident and failed to take any action about it. what they testified to the grand jury is what is at issue in that case. but as we reported over a week ago now, louis free, the former fbi firm which has been hired to conduct an internal investigation for penn state found e-mails, a cache of

e-mails that took place after that mcqueary incident that is the focus of intensive investigation. and one of those i'm trae-mail as we reports, schultz and penn state former president agreed that it would, quote, be inhumane to sandusky to not report the shower incident to local authorities. remember, this is after the 1998 penn state police investigation into sandusky. so how did that happen? how were senior officials, and why -- why did senior officials at penn state not crack down and try to stop jerry sandusky when they had all thesegations? >> michael, that's exactly my question. the first time i read that humane quote. it put me in mind. i want to read this. it put me in mind thinking about

the church and how the church allowed this to happen. the big thing you ask yourself is not why were there pedophiles because there are pedophiles in the world but why the ibs substitution was trying to cover up and protect themselves. it was why they didn't take the step of removing the priest from interactions with children and a lot of it had to do with as raz -- you said these personal relationships. so say it would be humane it would mean that your passion is toward the predator as opposed to the prey. this is a window into the psychology. this is a letter that cardinal law to boston roast to father john gagen and this is upon his retirement he knew that he had, like jerry sandusky, had a record of serial abuse. he said yours has been an effective life of ministry, sadly impaired by illness.

on behalf of those you have served well and in my own name, i would like to thank you. i understand yours is a painful situation. the passion we share can indeed seem unbearable and unrelenting. we are our best severals when we respond in honesty and trust. god bless you, jack. this is written from cardinal law to father geoghan after he knew what he was doing. it calls to mind another quote, this is a bishop in belgium trying to convince a victim of abuse not to press charges against his abuser priest. and the victim says why do you feel sorry for him and not me? and that to me seems -- that seems to me, michael, the question that has to animate the investigation, particularly given that very damning e-mail that uses humane in that context. >> reporter: exactly. there are certainly parallels in there. i want to inject another element -- >> sure, please? -- or reaction. remember, this was about penn

state football. this was about something that was central to this university and its national reputation and also was a huge revenue source for the school. $50 million a year, the college football program brought in. this was about joe paterno's football team and football program. and that -- you have to wonder to what degree did that influence the decision-making process, the fear of being tainted, having joe paterno's football program being tainted by the scandal. it's something that almost inevitably, as you can imagine, may have been a factor here. when you add that on top of the humane quote, that's another important dimension. another part of the ongoing investigation, that charity that srs se jerry sandusky set up, the second mile for at risk kids, the charity we know became -- was used by sandusky to pick out

his victims, every one of them came from second mile programs. and he then groomed them and then subjected them to sexual abuse. who at the charity knew about what he was doing? how did they allow it to happen? there's certainly information that they may have been informed about the '98 police investigation and the mcqueary shower incident in 2001, and yet they allowed jerry sandusky to continue to work with that charity. and there were a lot of powerful business people on the board of the charity. all of these are part of the ongoing inquiries, and we're going to be hearing more about it. >> thanks so much for joining us this morning. house republicans go after obama's attorney general right after this. i want healthy skin for life.

[ female announcer ] improve the health of your skin with aveeno daily moisturizing lotion. the natural oatmeal formula improves skin's health in one day, with significant improvement in 2 weeks. i found a moisturizer for life. [ female announcer ] only from aveeno. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] we believe you're at your best when you can relax and be yourself.

and at thousands of newly refreshed holiday inn hotels, you always can. holiday inn. stay you. and now stay rewarded with vacation pay. stay two weekend nights and get a $75 prepaid card. let'"that looks hard"oject from with vacation pay. to "that didn't take long". let's break out behr ultra... ...the number one selling paint and primer in one, now with stain blocker. each coat works three times harder, priming, covering, and blocking stains. let's go where no paint has gone before, and end up some place beautiful. more saving. more doing. after this. righ the home depot, buy four gallons of paint and get the fourth one free.

high schools in six states enrolled in the national math and science initiative... ...which helped students and teachers get better results in ap courses. together, they raised ap test scores 138%. just imagine our potential... ...if the other states joined them. let's raise our scores. let's invest in our teachers and inspire our students. let's solve this. i want to turn to my story of the week, post truth politics.

it shouldn't really count as news when a house committee finds the democratic attorney general in contempt of congress. after all, the last time we had a gop house and a democratic attorney general during the clinton administration, the house oversight committee vote add party line vote to find janet reno in contempt for failing to turn over two memos regarding whether an independent prosecutor was needed to investigate regarding campaign financing. this same committee voted again on a party line note to hold eric holder in contempt for refusal to turn over a trove of documents should. really count as news. but alas they're good at churning up outrage. the fast and fur yaus program was begun under bush to track illegal guns as they made their way through the hands of the mexican drug trafficker. it was not fully executed and one was used to shoot and kill border patrol agent brian terry. this horrible tragedy was one of about 30,000 people killed every

year by guns. somehow we don't see much outrage and grief from republicans about those. most importantly, you have to know that the nra scored the vote for contempt meaning it will consider it when it gives the nra. this is what the fracas is really about. it brings about a phrase i first heard. the oop rahhive told me we have to confront the fact we're living in an rare called post-truth politics and he had a very specific definition what it meant. in a medial environmental where conservatives have a monopoly on the information the audience receives you can no longer vee yat viable opportunities by making staunive concessions. what does ma anthony meathat me? the white house looked like it pretty clearly was going to sacrifice the public option in those negotiations. at least part of thinks w sing

you'll gain political ground because people could no longer attack the affordable care act. except as it turned out after passage, well, wrong. >> we want to get rid of this tremendously expensive government takeover of the health care in american. >> the president's attention, it was elsewhere, like a government takeover of health care. >> it didn't matter, my sources tell me, that the actually policy details of the bill were. of course they were going to get attacked for a government takeover of health care. the white house had yet to understand this dynamic. it still believed it could gain political traction by compromising policy substance. after the president took offer, the department of homeland security ramped up enforcement, deporting more people than george w. bush ever had. this was quite explicitly part of a political strategy on the

part of the white house to prove it was serious about enforcement so it could have the credibility to make progress on the come pres hencive immigration reform. the president said as much in the state of the union. >> i believe as strongly as ever that we should take on illegal immigration. that's why my administration has put more boots on the border than ever before. that's why there are fewer illegal crossings than when i took office. the opponents of action are out of excuses. we should be working on comprehensive immigration reform right now. >> but, of course, none of it mattered to republicans, conservative, and immigration restrictists who still pummeled the president as being soft and weak and bent on drowning americans in an ocean of immigrants. >> he went and usurped this document here, the constitution and provided a backdoor amnesty. >> which brings us to gun

control. this president has done basically nothing to restrict the use or sale of guns. he has push nod major legislation, issued no major legislative orders and if anything he's been good for business. heck, the brady campaign, they had given him a grade of "f," but that hasn't earned him any credit with the right and the nra. they are still talking like this. >> it's all part of a massive obama conspiracy to deceive voters and hide his true intentions to destroy the second amendment in our country. >> it's time to elect a president who will defend the rights president obama ignores or minimizes and i will protect the second amendment rights of the american people that and so that's why promoting this implausible conspiracy theory to make gun openers look bad to give guns to mexican traffickers is so important to the right and the nra. it's why they've been flogging the nra.

they have to make one. because this is post truth politics, because you cannot make political gains with substantive concessions. they're still going to call you a gun-hating kenyan socialist. i think as evidenced by the white house's announcement last week of protections for d.r.e.a.m. act eligible youth, that the white house is starting to wake up to that fact. i want to find out what my panelists have to say about that right after this. you can't argue with nutrition you can see. great grains. great grains cereal starts whole and stays whole. see the seam? more processed flakes look nothing like natural grains. i'm eating what i know is better nutrition. mmmm. great grains. search great grains and see for yourself. his morning starts with arthritis pain. and two pills. afternoon's overhaul starts with more pain. more pills. triple checking hydraulics. the evening brings more pain. so, back to more pills. almost done, when... hang on. stan's doctor recommended aleve. it can keep pain away all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is rudy.

who switched to aleve. and two pills for a day free of pain. ♪ and get the all day pain relief of aleve in liquid gels.

ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about how some companies like to get between

ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 you and your money. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, we believe your money should be available ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 to you whenever and wherever you want. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 which is why we rebate every atm fee worldwide. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 and why our mobile app lets you transfer funds, ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 execute trades, even deposit checks just by ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 taking a picture, right from your phone. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck and put those barriers behind you. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 all right. so i just -- i just laid out a theory about the way in which we live in an environment in which you can't make substantive compromises on policy where you say, okay, we're going to get rid of the public option because that, you know, we understand you have ideological objections to that and when we get rid of the government option it's no longer a government takeover. of course, it's still going to be called a government takeover of health care. one of the places it's played out is in imgraig. i think the quote that i just

played of the president of the state of the union saying very explicitly, we did more border enforcement and deportations explicitly as a way to prove to our opponents that we care about illegal immigration and enforcing our borders an enforcing the law and then he said the opponents are out of excuses. but the opponents didn't change in their opposition to the president, and i want you, jose, as someone who's worked on thissish, to tell me how accurate you thing my thee theory of how the white house was on? >> i think you're dead on. i think the way they underestimated is no one was willing to extend whatever kind of branch. i was on lou dobbs last night talking it's fascinating to me in the past week. i talked with bill o'reilly, mike huckabee, and lou dobbs who talked to me and said there should be a path for citizenship like me and for blaming obama

for not tackling immigration. wait a second. it was 36 republicans who voted against the d.r.e.a.m. act in the senate. >> right. >> right? so what are we -- what are we -- and this was in 2010. let's not get political. so to me -- and it's fascinating how marco rubio is speaking the way that he's speaking right now, talking about the -- you know, humanization of this issue, and i actually think marco rubio within his party is creating a space to talk about this. space. >> so marco rubio, though, would seem to be a rebuttal to my theory, right? because the ideal behind marco rubio is there is now conversation about substantive policy negotiation saying we're not going to give them citizenship, we're going to give them work permits. but ross as someone who represents -- >> represents? i object represent myself and my family and every conservative. where do you want me to start?

>> first of all -- the basic framework. >> let's start with the basic framework, yes, it's certainly true that there -- because there are sort of deep passionate disagreements about issues in american life that there is a limit to what you can achieve by making substantive concessions to the opposition, but let's take the case of health care for instance, right? it was true that just by getting rid of the public option that was not going to change the fact that the large majority of republicans were still going to call it a government takeover of health care, which given that it's affectively turned the public -- turfed private insurers into public utilities, it sort of was. >> i disagree, but continue that. >> bracket that. so -- but so what was the point of getting rid of the public option? well, in part it was to bring a few wavering democratic senators on board. >> sure. >> why did they need to bring a few wavering democratic senators on board? part of it was the democrats had succeeded so well in the secedes election or two that they had

defeated precisely the kind of republican who would be inclined to compromise, so they were effectively in a position to kproem miez with themselves, right, with joe lieberman or ben nelson. so look what happens. scott brown wins in massachusetts. suddenly in the senate you have the kind of republican who feels the need to make compromises and when financial regulation rolls around they make concessions and scott brown goes along with it. so i just think -- i think the deep dynamic is true, but i don't know if it's -- it's just a dynamic that reflects deep -- and on immigration, right? yes, it's always going to be the case that, you know, there are lots of republicans and conservatives who aren't going to be satisfied by obama saying, well, we've done border enforcement for four years and let's do some kind of am necessi necessity. we can use a different term if you want. there are lots of conservatives who just ao'pose that period and that's nod going to go away. >> let's talk about that. we're talking, for instance,

about deportation. the discussion that we're having about deportation isn't grounded in what exactly. i don't think the typical republican knows that the president deported more people, that he ramped up that enforcement. that's my point. it's breaking down in this basic level of people knowing that that's the case. he's doing that and i still don't trust the guy. he's doing that and i don't want comprehensive regulation reform. he's doing that. >> where's the electrified fence? >> but that exactly ends up being the question, which is that -- if they don't know that's the case, right, which i think is largely -- it's true that they don't, then how do you -- >> but do you think -- there was a poll yesterday, right, recently on how many americans had heard -- and this is not a substantive issue, i confess, had heard about the president's -- the private sector is doing fine comment, right, which was, you know, however you want to defend it.

a pretty big gaffe. and half of the americans had. heard of this statement. i just wonder -- yes, there's clearly more polarization in media consumption perhaps among viewers of the show and fox news -- >> never. >> never. you're right. i'm here. i represent. i guess just on immigration, right? i mean so recent -- president obama has done something on immigration that he explicitly denied hae had the authority to do last year, right? and why did he do this? well, one of the republicans potentially is he was a little bit worried that marco rubio was working on his own version of the d.r.e.a.m. act and so on, which, again, it's a slightly more complicated picture. >> i agree it's slightly more complicated. one quick response. i just want to say in reporting this -- two things. i think the political pressure worked but i think they were persuaded they did have the authority. i think there was a case made internally by people that did think they had the authority and

ended up winning the legal argument. >> it's amazing. >> l. joy, i want you to respond to this right after we take a quick break. laces? really? slip-on's the way to go. more people do that, security would be like -- there's no charge for the bag. thanks. i know a quiet little place where we can get some work done. there's a three-prong plug. i have club passes. [ male announcer ] get the mileage card with special perks on united, like a free checked bag, united club passes, and priority boarding. thanks. ♪ okay. what's your secret? [ male announcer ] the united mileageplus explorer card. get it and you're in. yoo-hoo. hello. it's water from the drinking fountain at the mall.

[ male announcer ] great tasting tap water can come from any faucet anywhere. the brita bottle with the filter inside.  [ male announcer ] great tasting tap water can come from any faucet anywhere. so i test... a lot. do you test with this? freestyle lite test strips? i don't see... beep! wow! that didn't take much blood. yeah, and the unique zipwik tab targets the blood and pulls it in. so easy. yep. freestyle lite needs just a third the blood of onetouch ultra. really? so testing is one less thing i have to worry about today. great. call or click today and get strips and a meter free. test easy. thin coffee shops. people who i thave been out of work. you can tell it wears on them. narrator: he's fought to pull us out of economic crisis for three years. and he still is. president obama's plan keeps taxes down for the middle class, invests in education and asks the wealthy to pay their fair share. mitt romney and his billionaire allies can spend milions to

distort the president's words. but they're not interested in rebuilding the middle class. he is. i'm barack obama and i let's compare. germ party! eww! now the colgate total mouth. nice! [ female announcer ] colgate total fights 90% more plaque germs. i'm in. [ female announcer ] colgate total. less germs. healthier mouth. the calcium they take because they don't take it with food. switch to citracal maximum plus d. it's the only calcium supplement that can be taken with or without food. that's why my doctor recommends citracal maximum. it's all about absorption. that's why my doctor recommends citracal maximum. we charge everything else... maybe it's time to recharge the human battery. only the beautyrest recharge sleep system combines the comfort of aircool memory foam layered on top of beautyrest pocketed coils to promote proper sleeping posture all night long. the revolutionary recharge sleep system from beautyrest...

it's you, fully charged. get a free set of sheets when you buy a select beautyrest mattress. hurry, offer ends soon. all right. joy, i want you to respond about this discussion we're having about post-truth politics and whether you can make concessions on policy. >> i think we need to be clear on where we are in terms of the atmosphere. we can't have substantive real conversations about policy about i can't understand your side, i can't really sit down and talk across the table and discuss that when the other side just doesn't want him there, right? and so everything is framed around we don't want him as president, we want him out, so we can't even sit down and have the dialogue on what are the real issues and can we come to some sort of compromise? we can't get that where the

polarization right now when the focus is just getting him out of office as opposed to -- >> it seems to me there's competing sets of facts, and as somebody who's on the outside like myselfing i look at -- i like at people with competing sets of facts and i go, i don't know who to believe. i'm inclined to believe democrats because that's what i am but i can't help but wonder when republicans hold up a contrasting set of facts. >> the desire to see him gone -- >> -- outweighs the desir to do something substantial about health care, immigration reform. that outweighs that. >> if you think -- i will say, ross, if you genuinely thing that the guy is destroying the country, that he's inaugurating a new era in the american project that is fundamentally -- no, seriously. >> yes, he is. >> -- discarding our most cherished heritages of freedom.

>> right. which is how a lot of democrats felt about george w. bush. shredding the constitution. >> which i think on the substance was much more true of president bush. >> of course. >> but i also think -- >> that's why we're actually currently living -- >> that's why, though, aet the time i think it was rational to pursue essentially getting rid of bush above all else and i thirpg that was. necessarily -- no, you're sh shaking your head. >> you cannot separate demograph demographics. all the polls are saying obama -- the split -- us people of col color. all of us. all of us. >> throw me in there. >> should i just lean back? >> you have color. everybody has color. >> i have terrible rosacea, does that count? >> it all counts. you look right now at the polling in terms of, look, of

course obama did this kind of your point about, you know, he said did the authority do it, what, september of last year and now he does this. i mean it's like saying that politicians are playing with to politics. of course, they're going to play politics. if he had the chance, he would have done the same thing. but he can't, right? here's the greater point i want to make about this. i'm trying as hard as i possibly can to actually have honest uncomfortable conversations about this issue. to me as i travel around the country, who's illegal, undocumented, the question i asked most, the question was why don't you just make yourself legal. >> right. >> and, of course, sometimes you get a little -- i'm a masochist, this is so much more fun. >> right. >> people don't even understand that there is no process for people like me to just come forward and get in the back of some line. that doesn't even exist. and the fact that i'm guy also

brings up the fact that i can't say my way into it. >> there's technically the process that you could return to the philippines. >> and septembaccept the ten-ye baus barb. i've been here since i was 12, i pay taxes. >> i'm not going to get into that. the question is how should the immigration system actually work, right, because the general drift of democratic policy making on this issue is that we should have, you know, some form of work permits and maybe guest worker programs and so on. basically it seems like a kind of rolling amnesty, right? every ten years or so, we -- >> the last one was reagan. >> the last one was reagan but obviously people have been agitating for the other one for a while. so you have sort of a system where lots of people come here

illegally and them you have either a sort of perpetual sort of program for legalization that people can enter into or you have sort of, well, every 15 years we say, okay, well, time to -- you know, time to just acknowledge this and so on. that seems like a -- not an optimal -- >> i agree. i totally agree with you. >> the current system is completely sub optimal and i want you to sketch out what the alternative is right after we take a break. small business credit card! pizza!!!!! [ garth ] olaf's small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! put it on my spark card! [ high-pitched ] nice doin' business with you! [ garth ] why settle for less? great businesses deserve the most rewards! awesome!!! [ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day! what's in your wallet?

and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers. this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way. devry university, proud to support the education of our u.s. olympic team.

ross, you sketched out a story about how broken and ad hoc, i would say, our current immigration policy is, which is essentially -- >> this. >> i think we all agree with that. i think that's the one thing you ever hear if you report on immigration from both sides, current system is broken. a lot of people come across through nonlegal mean. a lot of people here are not document and we have to deal with it. so in 1986 there was amnesty.

now there's a discussion how do we bring them out from the shadows, et cetera. the question is what is actually a working system look like going forward and that's something you thought a lot about. >> let me give this context. so the president's directive last friday was the most significant step on immigrant rights and reforms since reagan signed the amnesty program. i'm 31, i missed it by four months. if you think the tax code is complicated. try making sense of the immigration code, right? for example, the percentage of people who are here undocumented came here with visas but overstayed. 40% are what they call overstayers. for example, if you graduate right now in this country, there are people who are graduating with engineers degrees who we need who are being forced to leave instead of starting their businesses here. so reforming the visa system which a lot of people don't

understand, and coming up with some sort of employment -- there's two ways to get a green card. family communication and employment base. both those two things need it. romney actually in his speech talked about it but didn't give any kind of specifics. >> i want to bite the bullet here as the liberal and make the honest case. we need to expand the number we give out. with should really increase the legal route of immigration. i mean that -- >> this is what has made this country always so great. what makes america exceptional because everybody is in america. we create a process that welcomes everybody to come here legally. so instead of having smugglers, we should have more visas, right. >> how do we create that without having overpopulation? >> that does sound a lot like mitt romney's sketch of immigration reform. it's just that the romney vision doesn't include the -- you know, it doesn't --

>> a pass. >> only if they lived in northern mexico. >> or people with mexican names. i keep explaining to people. for me, it's really hard, man. you try to get partisanship and politics out of this and it keeps going back. >> but that contradicts what you just said, of course, it's political. >> what i'm saying is when you talk about the facts and policy is what i'm talking about, that's what i'm talking about. it's hard to get people to look at the set of facts without going to what you're saying, but i have these sets of facts. >> right. so in the -- if in the example of the romney blueprint, right, which again a not detailed and so on but includes things -- basically includes a large expansion of illegal immigration and hopefully reforms and str streamlining -- >> how can he plauzably do that? >> i think -- there are a lot of

different elements at work in conservative opposition to imgraig, but part of the opposition is a focus on issues of law and order, right? there is a strong conservative sensibility that i thirpg is not totally unreasonable. yes, we should welcome them and maybe we should welcome more of them, but that doesn't mean that we should grant citizenship to people who broke our laws. >> and then there's a disconnect between -- okay, we recognize that people are here illegally. and what should bedo. from where i'm sitting, the republicans seem to be saying -- it seems to halt the conversation right there. everybody's going they're doing massive deportations. >> that's exactly where the conversation goes. you can't do mass deportations. you don't do anything. >> you don't do anything about -- about people like you and

that's true. the republican answer is we fix the overall structure of the system and maybe we do some variant on the d.r.e.a.m. act for people in this particular position. but then for people in your position, yeah, there's a kind of benign neglect where you assume -- i mean -- >> because the point of that is these are millions of people. i think the intuition, the moral intuition i have -- again, i'm a liberal so this is not going to persuade anyone. this is basically inhumane. these are actual human beings who are function algly -- bound up in our lives together who are actually functioning in the way they live their lives, functioning as part of a social contract without the provisions of the social contract. they don't have its protections. >> and more than that, they were asked to come here, at least in the case of mexicans and south americans. they were basically wink, wink, nudge, nudge, asked.

we turn our backs on them and say, oh, we didn't mean it. >> i think that's exactly the problem the conservatives see. there is this sort of wink, wink, nudge, flunk attitude but if every -- if that attitude ends every cycle with another blanket amnesty -- >> which is again visa reform, visa reform. put something in play that says, all right, this is what we're going do in terms of whatever the economy needs. >> i want to talk about another part of the underground economy that some democratic lawmakers are trying to bring out from the shadows. two big names took a standard. a very controversial issue this week. and that's up next. what happens wn classroom teachers get the training... ...and support they need? schools flourish and students blossom. that's why programs like... ...the mickelson exxonmobil teachers academy... ...and astronaut sally ride's science academy are helping our

educators improve student success in math and science. let's shoot for the stars. let's invest in our teachers and inspire our students. let's solve this. mcallen, texas. in here, heavy rental equipment in the middle of nowhere, is always headed somewhere. to give it a sense of direction, at&t created a mobile asset solution to protect and track everything. so every piece of equipment knows where it is, how it's doing or where it goes next. ♪ this is the bell on the cat. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪

good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes along with lchlt joy williams, ross dow that, hakim jeffries who's running for congress in a democratic primary and michael ian black, a co-author "america, you sexy bitch:a love letter to freedom." >> that was. the only issue that saw big democratic movement this week. two big named democratic politicians with it came back with bills that would produce bills. in chicago mayor rahm emanuel announced a bill to change the penalty from potential jail time to a fiechbl here's emmanuel explaining his position. >> i got comfortable with this

because i think it's right for a number of reasons. i think it more focuses us on the hard core elements. >> after new york republicans said they would oppose a measure to decriminalize possession of less than 25 in open view, governor andrew cuomo said not only would he continue to push for it but republicans would pay a price in polls for november. new poll this week in washington in colorado for example show both states support it on the ballot. hak hakim, we've wanted to speak with you. you're someone who's been arguing the case on the merits for a while. i'm curious as a politician, as someone who's running for congress. you know, when i saw rahm emanuel and andrew cuomo are not gentlemen who like to get too far out on a limb on a political issue, i think it's safe to say.

these are people that have very big national ambitions that don't want to take a stand that's going to come back and bite them later on. it said to me something really interesting about where the politics on this issue are moving, that we've seen both of them come out last week. i wonder how you feel about that. >> the government's leadership has been tremendous an it's clear to me and the governor gets this. you want a rational criminal justice policy that both promotes public safety but also is fair and treats people the same regardless of race or a variety of other issues. there were things in play. first we saw the legislator in 1977 in a bipartisan way, in fact, decriminalized possession of small quantities of marijuana, less than 25 grams, if it wasn't in plain view. in the year after that, occurred, 1978, only a few hundred people were arrested in any given year. subsequent to that we receive this explosion in misdemeanor marijuana arrests.

last year more than 50,000 people arrested in the city of new york run through the system as a result of the possession of small quantities of marijuana. needlessly scarring the lives of tens of thousands of people. >> and if i'm not mistaken. i think the number is -- >> not only that. then you have statistics. you have 94% of young men of color being arrested, stop and frisked. you know, we just marched about that. stop and frisked is used and they then are arrest afrd they're asked to empty their pockets and now it's in plain view so it's sort of that trick there, but the number of statistics say white users are using it more but they're getting arrested. >> this strikes aet the core. i think we have two conversations about

decriminalization. there's a conversation of medical marijuana where it's largely out west where it's had most of its successes and then decriminalizing. i think the experience of marijuana use and whether you're going to be busted are very different along these lines. michael, i want to ask you about this. you mentioned in the book with megan han mccain -- megan said smoked pot. i know a lot of white folks who smoked pot and did not get arrested. >> i'm absolutely in favor of white folks not getting arrested. >> you want to extend that. >> for anything. we went to new orleans, we smoked pot. neither of us are regular. i've done i a few times in my life. it's done nothing for me. i think she's similar. people of color get arrested far

more. you were talking about, ha keem, it's not about a public safety issue. when you talk about marijuana, there's no public safety component to it. no one is getting hurt from smoking marijuana. they may gain some pounds from getting the money chis, but nobody's getting hurt. i think when we look at marijuana versus alcohol versus prescription pills versus plenty of legal substances, it's right there in the middle. >> in fact, there's a sort of amazing exchange on the hill this week in which congressman gerald polis was -- had the d.a. administrative michelle lain hart who was testifying. he asked her what are the negative health concern of marijuana and how do they stack up and this is what happened. >> crack worse for a person than

marijuana? i believe all illegal drugs are bad. >> is meth amphetamine worse for somebody's health than marijuana? >> is md sin worse for someone's -- >> yes, no, i don't know. if you don't know, you can look this up. you should know this as the chief administrator for the drug enforcement agency. i'm asking you a straightforward question is heroin worse for someone's health than marijuana. >> all drugs are. >> does this mean you don't know? >> i think generally the properties of heroin, yes, it's more addictive. >> the in fact she would kind of continue this talking is like this is simple basic question that you can -- like you can go off the talking points and really just answer the question. heroin is worse than marijuana.

that's a whole history lesson in terms of why marijuana is illegal in the first place, right. >> isn't there a racial component to the actually -- >> there's the racial component, the tobacco industry that was supportive of the racial connotation. you can do a lot with marijuana. not only just smoke it. you can make things with it, you know. that was in direct competition with tobacco during the time as well. >> like brownies. >> exactly. >> i think the big problem we're experiencing that we're trying to address in new york that emanuel is trying to address in chicago is that there are real consequences to the prosecution and arrest for possession of small quantities of marijuana. you have individuals whose lives are scarred, unable to get job, unable to get funding for college, unable to stay in public housing, in some instances unable to keep their

children in a family core as a result of this very small offense. >> that's the connection we were making terms of stop and frisk. we've been marching and the stop and frisk has become a national issue now. that is the target, you know, that people -- and so they like to say, well, we need stop and frivg because we go to where the guns are, where the drugs are. but statistically there are more white people smoking marijuana, why are there no stop and frivgs? same thing with prescription drugs. there was a study "wall street journal" did about the number of illegal prescriptions that they did. >> that's because we need to start shaking down seniors at walgree walgreens. >> this is a really important part. part of what has brought this to a head, particularly in new york is the stop and frisk. like you said, we've had this explosion in it because you're asking people to em the i their pockets you're going to get people who are carrying and get a lot of arrests.

in chicago mayor emanuel said they have about 20,000. he estimated that's 45,000 police hours a year. >> we haven't been able to figure out, but we are spending $75 million a year on the arrest and prosecution of marijuana that we would otherwise save and be able to redirect. >> i want to talk with someone who has worked with jewish niles who caught up in the system right after we take a break. the first trade route to the west, the greatest empires. then, some said, we lost our edge. well today, there's a new new york state. one that's working to attract businesses and create jobs. a place where innovation meets determination... and businesses lead the world. the new new york works for business. find out how it can work for yours at thenewny.com. cuban cajun raw seafood pizza parlor french fondue tex-mex fro-yo tapas puck

chinese takeout taco truck free range chicken pancake stack baked alaska 5% cashback. signup for 5% cashback at restaurants through june. it pays to discover. yoo-hoo. hello. it's water from the drinking fountain at the mall. [ male announcer ] great tasting tap water can come from any faucet anywhere. the brita bottle with the filter inside.

well, more and more people are bundling their home and auto insurance with progressive. sure seems and why that way. wouldn't you? you can save on both your home and auto policies. yep. we talked about this. [meow!] [meow!] bundling and saving. now, that's progressive. play rocket cat adventures at progressive.com. yep. the longer you stay with us, the more you save. and when you switch from another company to us,

we even reward you for the time you spent there. genius. yeah, genius. you guys must have your own loyalty program, right? well, we have something. show her, tom. huh? you should see november! oh, yeah? giving you more. now that's progressive. call or click today. i want to bring in randall strickland, a former cook county juvenile probation offer who now sits on the illinois juvenile commission, serves on the re-entry program of the government's re-entry government

initiative. randall, you've worked with juveniles who get caught up in the system. i want you to tell us what happens after the first marijuana arrest because i think that's part of what people don't get, how this pushes people onto a path in one direction or another. >> well, my concern is as you indicated that after the first arrest, what happens is it sort of creates a pattern or an orientation wherefore young people are more likely to be arrested again, are more likely to have further involvement in the skruv nile justice system and are more likely then to have other -- other negative outcomes and, in fact, the arrest and the prosecution or adjudication as we use the term of juveniles, in fact, increases their risk factors for things like dropping out of high school and not completing high school, for experiencing unemployment and other kinds of family, personals, and community dislocation. so ultimately it does have a

sort of negative spiraling impact on people. and we have research that suggests that for low levels of crime, low levelsf drug use, recreational drug use, that actually less handling of young people ultimately produces better outcomes. in fact, they're better off if we handle them less. >> handle them less in the sense of the criminal justice system and other ways or just sort of look the other way? >> no, i'm not suggesting that we look the other way, but, for example, we expend huge amounts of resources as mr. jeffries indicated on policing and pursuing young people, people of color, poor people, for marijuana usage. we could bedder apply those resources for drug treatment or assessment.

why can't we use a system that young people show up and be tested and treated for drug abuse. thirpg that would be a much better use of our resources than just simply either arresting people, holding them in custody days, weeks at a time in an already overcrowded adult system in particular, and rather than using those resources in ways that will have a longer term payoff or benefit. >> obviously i think the policy case here is pretty airtight. that's why we're doing the segment. but there is political opposition. i mean i want to just -- a quick quote from dean skel lis oochz, a republican cool leak of yours. this is how he characterized governor cuomo's proposal here in new york state. >> being able to just walk around with ten joints in each ear and it only be a violation, think -- >> ten joints in each year. >> ten joints in each year.

>> those are big ears. >> but there is political opposition. i think the national conversation and issues have moved and it's reflected in the polling. think conservative opposition has declined partly because we're not in the midst of the high amounts of crime that we saw during periods that produced this anti-drug backlash. but there is still the political -- >> first of all, i don't think dumbo could put ten joints in each ear. given the fact that clearly you had the police commissioner every single local district attorney, all five in new york, dean's own nassau county district attorney came out with the governor, the legislature in the assembly saying this is an irrational policy and we need to move in a different direction.

i should also point out. one of the reasons why it got a lot of attention is because of the racial dynamic. the recreational use of marijuana is either a crime or it's not, but it can't be criminal behavior for one group of people, socially acceptable people for another group of people when the dividing line is raised. so hopefully we can bridge that gap moving forward here in new york and all across the country. >> i think part of the dynamic is -- i think -- i sort of implies maybe by that assembly man's comments, i think there are a lot of let's call them white middle class parents for instance who like the idea of marijuana being illegal but not necessarily enforced, you know, directly -- >> their kids. exactly. >> they want the preps of the law there as sort of a way of sort of scaring them. >> an expression of social sanction that might have minor consequences but not significant -- >> we got that already with

alcohol use. i don't know how well it works or doesn't. but nobody's going to get arrested, i don't think. >> this is -- the issue there is, you know, you have people who say, well, we've already got a culture of alcohol, do we need to add a similar one -- >> let me also say that i thirpg that would change real fast if you saw the kind of enforcement in stop and frisk in those communities. randell strickland from the juvenile justice commission, thank you for your time. and hakeem jeffries, thanks for joining us. >> thank you. >> what happens when the business class tries to buy off our institutions. the crazy case of the university of virginia scandal up next. it's very important to understand how math and science kind of makes the world work. in high school, i had a physics teacher by the name of mr. davies. he made physics more than theoretical, he made it real for me. we built a guitar, we did things with electronics and mother boards. that's where the interest in engineering came from.

so now, as an engineer, i have a career that speaks to that passion. thank you, mr. davies. thin coffee shops. people who i thave been out of work. you can tell it wears on them. narrator: he's fought to pull us out of economic crisis for three years. and he still is. president obama's plan keeps taxes down for the middle class, invests in education and asks the wealthy to pay their fair share. mitt romney and his billionaire allies can spend milions to distort the president's words. but they're not interested in rebuilding the middle class. he is. i'm barack obama and i ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about how some companies like to get between ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 you and your money. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, we believe your money should be available ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 to you whenever and wherever you want. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 which is why we rebate every atm fee worldwide. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 and why our mobile app lets you transfer funds, ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 execute trades, even deposit checks just by ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 taking a picture, right from your phone.

ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck and put those barriers behind you. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550

pull litser prize winner jose vargas is back with us at the table. there was outrageous.

they orchestrated her departure with out so much as a vote. parentally they wanted cuts in government and focused departments they see as raising revenue including online courses. virginia republican bob mcdonnell has refused to take a position on the matter. instead he sent a letter to the board on the special meeting they're holding tuesday to consider sullivan's reinstatement saying, quote, let me be absolutely clear. i want final action by the board on tuesday. if you fail to do so, i will ask for the resignation of the entire board of wednesday. bob mcdonnell not taking a position on what she should come back in or not but just that something should be done. tim kaine, former virginia governor expressed unequivocal support for sullivan saying to reinstate her would be justice.

what make this story so interesting to me is how perfectly it illustrates the dynamics playing out at universities across the country as they're forced to rely on donors. ail this while trying to graduate more and more students. what it's doing is shifting power from the public to billionaires with more financial control over our universities. the strange coup which in this election season should sound familiar. wayn't to bring in to start this. he's chair of uva's media department, author of "the googlization of everything. kwlts thanks for coming back, siva. they weren't letting any more bodyings into new york. it's too hot there, right? >> this scandal is -- it started

out and i thought this is kind of one of those academic politics canbrutal and there's a knife fight, coup, et cetera. increasingly the model for all our institutions and things that provide public good is a business model, is a model of the private sector. and increasingly we have donors coming in to make up the gap in funding so people get a sense here. this is the changes in the public and private funding of uva. in 1990 state appropriations made up 33% of the budge. by 2012 it's down to 9.5%. the difference is coming from fund raising. increasingly we have the combination of a donor class who's providing with a vision on how to run those institutions that comes from running those the private selk tore and though

produces the strange case we're seeing in soviet union va. >> actually. there's actually one more input that's making up for the severe disinvestment of the public dollars from higher education and that is the costs are being shifted to the students. in really painful ways. that, of course, encourages students justifiably to think of themselves all too often as consumers of higher education and this contributes to the sort of market model and market fundamentalism that's putting incredible pressure on every element of higher education to the point where we have to constantly take our nose out of books, take our heads out of the classroom and think about hustling, hustling for money, making sure we can justify our behaviors, justify our subject matters, make sure that they match some sort of market model and it's brutal. at the same time.

job security is going down. real salaries for people that teach the classes. it's a real crisis but it's a crisis at its source is the lack of funding for public higher education from states. they've been shifting the burden to students and the federal government and to the people who work there and they've been benefiting even more and more from the growth in higher education in their states. >> but i want to -- you just said, you know, we have to lift our nose out of books to hustle. you know, as someone -- most americans are hustling, rightsome think americans view the culture of the university as cushy, as protected from the hustle that everybody -- the grind that everybody is on, particularly in these hard times. and in fact the lack of hustle, the word you use appear to be at the root of the ouster. a big finance guy at goldman sachs, he said -- this is a leaked e-mail where he says the decision of the board of

visitors to move in another direction stems from their concern that the governance of the university was not sufficiently tuned to the draw ma'amic changes we all face, funding, internet, technology advances, the new economic model. these are matters for strategic dine a michl. i think they look at the mod of the university. the model even visioned by thomas jefferson a long time ago as a quiet place of contemplation and studying of classics and they say it's out of sync with the needs of the 21st century and the euro universities have to respond more. that and more after we take a quick break. more naturally withn than stimulant laxatives, for effective relief of constipation without cramps. thanks. good morning, students. today we're gonna continue...

sven's home security gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! how does this thing work? oh, i like it! [ garth ] sven's small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! woo-hoo!!! so that's ten security gators, right? put them on my spark card! why settle for less? testing hot tar... great businesses deserve the most rewards! [ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day! what's in your wallet? here's your invoice.

what's in your wallet? ♪ what started as a whisper every day, millions of people choose to do the right thing. there's an insurance company that does that, too. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? see va vaidyanathan

representative of the slothful ivy lee, ivy scholar with your nose in the book while the rest of americans are hustling, why shouldn't the universities change? why shouldn't we see big strategic dine michl? >> they've been changing pretty steadily since world war ii and all for the better. they've become more reclusive and efficient. right now we're starved for resources. scientific research is grinding to a halt. we have a tremendous surplus of neefrps the classrooms. my sister teeks in florida in a variety of settings including junior colleges, universities. she's hustling to put together classes, things that we need in america, and she's barely able to make it because we have no public support for higher

education in the country anymore. my father on the other way -- by the way, i'm in chicago celebrating his 50th anniversary of his ph.d. he was able to live a decent middle-class life. if you approach it from a market fund mental list view, you only think about the inputs and outputs. we're not supposed to be printing diplomas. we're supposed to be fonching new ideas, technologies, imagining new ways of living. we're supposed to be countering the current dominant trends, questioning the current dominant trends. we're supposed to be pushing new areas of thought that don't have an immediate return in the next quarter and when you put pressure on a complex like a university to try to focus on next quart eric on the bottom line, on the number of diplomas produced, you're going to miss out on tremendous knowledge. there's a reason that imgrants try to flood our universities. it's because we still have the

best university in the entire system. it's the one set of institutions in this country that works better than anything else in the world. we should be proud of it, sin vesting in it instead of running from it and creating cartoon care crick a turs. we have a beautiful place at the university of virginia. ask professors what we actually do and they might have come away with some really good ideas. they might have given us some really good ideas. but instead of engaging in real conversation about the future of higher education and what goes on at the university of virginia, they chopped the head off at the institution and did serious damage. it's happening all ore america. it happened at texas a&m last year. they're try dog it at other universities as well. largely because they weren't satisfying the womens of people who work on wall street and we all know how successful that mentality has been for the rest of us. this is a real strategy.

>> joy williams has a question for you. >> professor, i'm interested. you make mention of students being seen as consumers and yet, you know, in this particular case, we see a number of students either coming back to the campus to protest this. are people listening to the students who are the consumers? i mean in the market, you listen to the consumers to determine what they want in order for them to buy. are students being listened to? >> well, if it were all about market numbers, the university of virginia would be stronger than ever before. we get more applications every year. they go up in huge spikes every year. the government has been working with president sullivan to increase enrollment because so many parents in virginia are frustrated that their children can't get into the university of virginia and we're all on board with that kind of expansion but that has to happen rationally. you have to have the people who can serve those students, the dorm rooms for them. you need to be able to give them a good experience in college

instead of just pupping up the numbers. and where we're looking at right now, we're looking at the stats of every level of hire education. but what we've seen in the last few weeks is students by the thousands come back to charlottesville to make their anger known to the governor and to the board of visitors. they've been in complete support of the stand the faculty has taken. alumnae from around the world have been e-mailing the governor, calling the governor, trying to make it clear that we need to continue on the path of great ps and innovation. we're doing in credible bold things in the classrooms and the labs and just dealing with our students every day, but we're not give sufficient credit for it largely because there's this serious type out there. >> siva, ross dow that has a question. >> i always enjoy it as a conservative when i get to watch

liberal academics beat conservatives and -- >> suspect that the whole idea? >> i think from the poupt of view of some americans though, it might -- you know, the question might be raised that over the last few decades a couple of things have happened in higher education, right? the ratio of private dollars to public dollars has gone way up but tuition numbers have gone way up at a frankly pretty extraordinary pace that looks to some people a little pit like a kwiend of higher education bubble even. and so i think there is a sense and undoubtedly it was expressed stupidly by members of the uva portland but there is a sense when you talk about we can't expand the campus unless we make sure that everyone at uva is having a classic experience. in a country of 300 million people where we're not doing a very good job overall, and, yes, our universities are the enhave toif world but we're not doing

welly moving larger and larger numbers through the system. aren't there questions to be raised about whether d leave us alone, we're doing great job, we've got our nose in the books and that's how it should be, and by the way we can't add new students unless we build 16 new dorms. >> amd thirg this question of whether this is a market function or not, there is, i think, parents worry there is a consumer aspect of this in terms of what value you are getting and whether the price and the value are matched and i want you to respond to that. >> well, look. the value of the university and how it works is much larger than a particular value gives to particular student. second, i was the one who raised the tuition problem in the first place pause this is directly caused by the roll back. i went to the university of texas. i'm entirely a university person. university of texas for two degree. i've taught at the university of wisconsin and university of

virginia. look. when i went to the university of texas it cost barely anything to go because the state care about making sure that it was access for people of all classes go to the university of texas. we no longer care about that. what we've got now is this model, again, imposed by people who aren't drged i involved in any of these decisions. they're figuring out that, you know what, if we can just put all this course content online we can make sure that other people's children get a severely degrade experience and we don't have to worry about them. it's just another example of trying to get something for nothing. if you fierng to have top higher level education, you geebt to pay for it. there's no way we should be shifting the burden to students, shifting the burden to debt, shifting the burden to the people who are trying to work hard to get this job done. there's a lot more to it and there's a lot more to what we produce from universities. university of virginia, by the

way, is full of people who are setting broken bones, curing cancer, training special ed teachers. i mean that's where it really is. >> siva vaidyanathan, thanks so much for joining us and kon gral ragss to your dad. >> appreciate it. >> we'll be right back. it's time to live wider awake. only the beautyrest recharge sleep system combines the comfort of aircool memory foam layered on top of beautyrest pocketed coils to promote proper sleeping posture all night long. the revolutionary recharge sleep system... from beautyrest. it's you, fully charged. yoo-hoo. hello. it's water from the drinking fountain at the mall. [ male announcer ] great tasting tap water can come from any faucet anywhere. the brita bottle with the filter inside. do you really think brushing is enough to keep it clean?

while brushing misses germs in 75% of your mouth, listerine cleans virtually your entire mouth. so take your oral health to a whole new level. listerine... power to your mouth. so take your oral health to a whole new level. if you made a list of countries from around the world... ...with the best math scores. ...the united states would be on that list. in 25th place. let's raise academic standards across the nation.

let's get back to the head of the class. let's solve this. but they can also hold you back. unless you ask, "what's next?" introducing the all-new rx f sport. this is the pursuit of perfection. introducing the all-new rx f sport. cuban cajun raw seafood pizza parlor french fondue tex-mex fro-yo tapas puck chinese takeout taco truck free range chicken pancake stack baked alaska 5% cashback. signup for 5% cashback at restaurants through june. it pays to discover.

that was fascinating talk to siva about that because there's constantly tremendous consternation about that with the flagship and its future. the reason i want to talk about this issue is two things. one is the future of higher education is something we keep coming back to and keeps coming back. we have declining socialability and people look to our university system and community colleges as being the engine of mobility, the thing that's going to figure that out. and even though we have this weird situation in which we do have universities that are the envy of the world, but also don't seem to be doing that function particularly well, which is moving people through

and getting -- being the engines of that social mobility that we want. >> the larger point is that our education system in its entirety needs to have some sort of reform, a lot of reform. both from primary education all the way to higher education, so there's that basic level as well. and we're providing patchwork. the second part is this huge push in the last couple of days in terms of the amount of money needed. you know, and to look at students as consumers as opposed to imparting knowledge that they can then put back into the economy, into the country and sort of that cyclical ro relationship. the relationship is to give me money to get you credential as and we continue to get the amount of money. >> i think the other point that i want to raise here and i just want to play this clip.

reading these ooece-mails of th folks on the board talking about what we should be doing, it reminded me of this moment with mark zuckerberg on oprah announcing a $100 million grant to the new york schools. here he is. >> so mr. zuckerberg, what role are you playing? are rumors true? will a check be offered at some point? >> yes. i committed to starting the start-up education foundation whose first project will be a $100 million challenge grant. >> $100 million. >> $100 million. >> so this -- and obviously there's nothing -- you know, give $100 million to education is totally amazing thing, a generous thing, i don't think it's anything that we criticize but we're seeing in education the public to private -- >> bill gates foundation that and that comes with costs because it means that where the

dependence of the institution shifts. we're not having conversations about that. >> again, they're addressing something -- i profiled zuckerberg go yetwo years ago. >> it was great article. >> thank you. i heard he sat next to cory booker at some event, some conversation came up and before you know it, there he is. $100 million. what are these colleges supposed to do? i went to university of san francisco. $800 a semester. now it's something like $2,000, $3,000. where are they supped epe eped that money. >> i would like to announce right now i'm donate 1g $00 million to san francisco state university. >> do you have that money

though? >> no, no. >> the amount of money, you have institutions in both primary education, high schools and charter schools, you know, you see that in charter schools across urban areas where there are hedge fund managers and others giving the money to education, we need a real conversation on what is government's role in providing education for students, primary education, high school, you know, up to higher education so that we're not doing this patchwork of giving -- >> we tried this model before. the first public education in this country was funned almost entirelypy business leader. in fact, the whole model of provisioning these public gilds, in fact, the big university of stanford has the name stanford because it was a railroad rep who gave a lot of money.

i think the model we came up with afterward in which we created it is a superior one. >> you have to recognize that some of this private philanthropy is a reaction to public failure. especially during the recession, there's been declines. if you look at spending on primary education in the u.s. other the last few decade, depose up steadily without producing any kind of notable improvement in test scores and all the things that everybody focuses on. so the hedge fund people are -- you're right. they're sort of patching holes, but there are holes in the -- you know, precisely the public schl. >> which i think we should all fit together. >> what do we know now that we didn't know last week. my answers after this. any way you want. fully customize it for your trading process -- from thought to trade, on every screen. and all in real time. which makes it just like having your own trading floor,

right at your fingertips. [ rodger ] at scottrade, seven dollar trades are just the start. try our easy-to-use scottrader streaming quotes. it's another reason more investors are saying... [ all ] i'm with scottrade. let's compare. germ party! eww! now the colgate total mouth. nice! [ female announcer ] colgate total fights 90% more plaque germs. i'm in. [ female announcer ] colgate total. less germs. healthier mouth.

what we know now that we didn't last week, but first, a quick personal update.

my book is on sale now and last week, it was a real blast to meet uppers in washington, d.c. and chicago. thank you for coming out. next week, i'll be at an event in las vegas, wednesday in cambridge, mass. check out the website for details and information about appearances. we know rhode island's governor signed the first increase raising it to $7.75. the bad news is there is no state where a person making minimum wage can afford a two-bedroom unit working a 40-hour workweek. even while candidate obama promised to raise it, it's remained at $7.75, which is lower than what a minimum wage worker made in 1978.

we know that the most they could accomplish at this global tipping point was a vegas promise to drop sustainable development goals. we know if we're going to get the future we want which is the title of this big document, we're going to have to demand a lot more action from our leaders. we know the other species endanger of extinction is democrat female governors. although there are four serving, they may have -- and north carolina governor purdue step down after 2012. only new hampshire has the potential to elect a drakts female governor this fall only if one wins in september. we know that sam bennett told the "huffington post" quote, we might as well turn the clock back 50 years.

joy? >> i know there are people in new york city who are standing up for children. 47,000 of them are facing budget cuts for a day care and afterschool programs. this campaign for children is standing up for them and tish james is suing over that. >> that is one of the place where the acts of austerity will fall and one of the worst places for that acts to fall. russ, what do you now know? >> that it may take several years, but every presidential administration will invoke executive privilege. >> in response of darrell issa's question of eric holder to turn over more documents. bill clinton invoked 14 times, president bush, six times. jose? >> i know that marco rubio's maternal grandfather got

reported. i'm reading this book, mark rubio really fascinated me. >> i was doing some reporting and talking to immigration advocates in around this issue. and they said that arurubio has played this really important role in this in an interesting way which is that him, even though was a tentative proposal, that did create the space and it created the kind of policy bargaining that's the dynamic that i was talking about. >> which is why the president preemped it. >> that was the reason or not, the point though is policy bargaining is what you want to get to and it's interesting to me that rubio took that step and i think it says something about the political vision republicans have about their long-term political viability. >> in that conversation that needs to happen. >> michael, aside from being $100 million down after the two-hour appearance on our show,

you are big, obviously, a big star. >> i know that the first manmade object is about to travel as far, voyage about to leave the solar system. after 35 years. it's been traveling since it was launched in 1977. nasa's current budget remits .5% of our budget. i think we could do better. >> more space exploration. that will be your second $100 million donation. my thanks to political strategist, l. joy williams, ross, how we became a nation of -- and michael ian black, thanks for getting up and join us tomorrow sunday morning at 8:00. we'll get live reaction from cairo. coming up next, melissa has a secret to tell you that there

are things that very powerful things do not want you to know. at this moment, a secret meeting of millionaires and billionaires plotting to use their money to expand their political power to take over the country and african-americans are heading back to the south. this is a fascinating demographic change. living below the mason dixon line. what will this mean for the political power of black communities? can these new southerners change solidly republican states? we talked about that last week and it's just a fascinating shift in this country. coming up next, we'll see you here tomorrow at 8:00. of course, thanks for getting up. [ male announcer ] this is the at&t network. in here, every powerful collaboration is backed by an equally powerful and secure cloud. that cloud is in the network,

so it can deliver all the power of the network itself. bringing people together to develop the best ideas -- and providing the apps and computing power to make new ideas real. it's the cloud from at&t. with new ways to work together, business works better. ♪ [ dog ]ew ways to work together, we found it together.upbeat ] on a walk, walk, walk. love to walk. yeah, we found that wonderful thing. and you smiled. and threw it. and i decided i would never, ever leave it anywhere. because that wonderful, bouncy, roll-around thing... had made you play. and that... had made you smile. [ announcer ] beneful. play. it's good for you. ♪ ♪

[ male announcer ] we believe you're at your best when you can relax and be yourself. and at thousands of newly refreshed holiday inn hotels, you always can. holiday inn. stay you. and now stay rewarded with vacation pay. stay two weekend nights and get a $75 prepaid card. there it is ! there it is ! where ? where ? it's getting away ! where is it ? it's gone. we'll find it. any day can be an adventure. that's why we got a subaru. love wherever the road takes you. wow, there it is. what happens when classroom teachers get the training... ...and support they need? schools flourish and students blossom. that's why programs like... ...the mickelson exxonmobil teachers academy...

...and astronaut sally ride's science academy are helping our educators improve student success in math and science. let's shoot for the stars. let's invest in our teachers and inspire our students. let's solve this. and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's cares. this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way. devry university, proud to support the education of our u.s. olympic team. this morning, my question, what's more important?

political posturing or the help of seventh graders? plus, the farm bill ensures that cereal makers have their corn swirp, but it won't make sure hungry kids have cereal for breakfast, but first, guilty. former penn state coach jerry sandusky will almost certainly spend the rest of his life in prison. good morning. as jerry sandusky was led out of the courthouse in handcuffs late last night, the gathered crowds cheered and the once revered penn state coordinator was convicted of 45 counts of child sex abuse. sandusky's story is one of both heinous crimes and utter institutional failure to protect our