he and four liberal justices upheld the the bill, the provision that said people have to get health care or pay a penalty. these five justices ruled it constitutional. pete williams is nbc justice correspondent, i want to ask you the big question of the day. chief justice roberts appointed by george bush, why did he do what he did today? >> we can't say that for sure. we can only look at his words. you have to go back to when the case was argued to say that while justice roberts did have some skepticism, there were questions that he might he support the law. a huge stunner in that sense because he in essence had signalled he might do it. i think you have to say this is really two decisions. first of all, the supreme court with justice roberts joining with the four conservatives agreed with one of the conservative criticisms of this

law, that congress had no power, constitution remembers congress has to power quote to regulate commerce. the opponents said if you don't have insurance, therefore you can't be regulated, this is beyond congress' power. chief justice roberts agreed along with the other four justices.ç but the chief justice said it doesn't stop there. because the obama administration had made this second argument that congress had the power under its very broad taxing authority and that's where the chief found common ground with the four liberals on the court to say it's constitutional. so legally, the guts of the law are left in tact. the only real change that today's decision made is to the medicaid side of the law. the states had argued that by being forced to either accept all these new medicaid requirements, if they said no, the government said fine, you're out of medicaid and that's where the court said no, you can't go that far.

>> so, a major decision by the chief justice. let's go to anthony kennedy. the usual swing vote, supreme court, who basically succeeded -- one was the lawrence case, basically found for sexual liberty among consenting adults. here, it seemed he was following that libertarian approach. remember the old phrase, keep the government out of board room and bedroom. it seems he's one of those people. he didn't go with this taxing authority recognition by the chief justice. >> i think that's a very fair reading, chris, of what he said. and you know, that's also consistent with the concerns he expressed during the oral argument of this case. he thought this was a vast overreaching by congress and joined his conservative colleagues in saying so today. >> yeah, well said. pete, you're the best.ç it's great to have you. by the way, i think our ties are

in total agreement today, which is one of those other strange phenomena. thank you so much. let's turn now to what this means to the presidential race and i think it means a lot. howard fineman and john heilemann, national affairs editor for "new york magazine." you wouldn't want to be sitting home somewhere right now. the importance of this. let's go up side, down side. >> had he lost, i think his re-electns chances were close to nil. he's a change agent. this is the thing he staked his first term on. had it been thrown out by the supreme court, it would have been terrible. now, the flip side and to quote churchill, there's nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at without result. >> yes. >> so, wow.

it's a huge -- >> except i don't like to use ballistic language. >> it's a huge jolt of electricity and energy. >> to come over and get embroidered for our progressive viewers, one team wins 98-97, but it's the whole ball game. >> even though no republicans in congress ever supported this, he now has the bipartisan of at least one figure, chief justice john roberts.ç can't go bigger than john roberts. >> shortly after the court's decision was released and so chuck said this today. the better the decision the faster the president's response. so here he was at high noon today. let's listen to the president. >> earlier today, the supreme court upheld the constitutionality of the affordable care act. the name of the health care

reform we passed two years ago. in doing so, they've reaffirmed a fundamental principle, that here in america in the wealthiest nation on earth, no illness or accident should lead to any family's financial ruin. i know whether the debate over this law has been devicive. i know a lot of coverage through this health care debate has focused onhat it means politically. well, it should be clear by now that i didn't do this because it was good politics. i did it because i believed it was good for the country. i did it because i believed it was good for the american people. >> and quite a little chuckle there today because he's runninc the mandate, the main spring training of this bill approved by the high court is running abt 30%. obama's running better than 30%. >> there's no question that if you're the white house, this is the preferable outcome. on policy grounds, it's a huge

victory, but nothing that happened today made the law more popular. the law is still really unpopular. pieces of it there are kind of popular, but of it, talk to ç democratic pollsters about this law. >> let me ask you a simple question. you said preferable. is howard right if this would have been going down -- >> from the romney campaign's point of view, being able to stand up and say the president wasted a year and a half and passed a law that was unconstitutional would have been a huge political win for the romney campaign and a devastating loss for the obama administration, but we now are going to have a fight for three months over this law. >> you think? >> absolutely. the romney campaign thinks they still have a -- this law is really unpopular and they are going to run -- >> that's -- we're going to do a whole segment on that tonight,

whether romney really thinks this is a change he wants to rattle. >> as unpopular as the individual mandate is in the otherwise somewhat popular piece by piece health care law, president obama would prefer a three-month argument on this to a three-month exogis of how the economy is. >> want to talk about jobs or health care? >> jobs, but i don't think he's going to back off this criticism. if you look at a piece of legislation polling 70-30 and you're a republican -- >> he created the model for this thing. >> he is pledging to repeal and replace the law. >> he gets 60 votes this senate to do that, all this bs about he's going to repeal. it takes 60 votes to create and i believe 60 votes to decreate.ç >> they had reconciliation. >> how do they kill with reconciliation? >> democrats pass it with reconciliation, no reason you can't repeal.

republicans will try. >> practically 60 votes. >> chris. >> stop the music. you forget history here? 60 votes. >> i recall the reconciliation process. >> they got arlen specter and the two republicans from maine. go ahead. >> i was just going to say that the, i forgot what i was going to say because i'm so damn excited. >> i am, too. he's the only guy that's not excited. this is the game changer. >> all right, so mitt romney, this is great for mitt romney to solidify the base. that's true. he's going to talk about taxes. he's going to say this is a x, it's a tax and mitt romney came out today, stood in front of the capitol and said barack obama's going to tax you more et cetera, et cetera. but if mitt romney chooses to focus on the health care bill for the next three months, he will be taken off the the table his number one argument to be elected -- >> by the way -- >> which is barack obama has blown it on the economy.

>> by the way, not to get too tough with you, my friend because as mcloughlin would say, there's an element of truth. if this is held up as a tax, you simply reduce the tax to zero because you can move numbers around. >> but you -- if you don't think the republicans if they get control of the senate and have a republican president that they will try to use reconciliation to repeal this law i think it's crazy to think they won't try to do that. they hate this law.ç >> the fact is, the polls show that health care is like number four or five in people's concerns about what's number one in their minds. >> i tell you, the unemployment rate gets down to 7.5, they won't talk about anything. here's the president talking about the decision would only energize their party further, the republicans, against the law and the president. some republicans are making the best of this. making lemonade out of this lemon. >> i think the real outcome of

the today's decision is to strengthen our resolve to make sure that this law is in fact repealed. >> the decision today really indicates we have entered an age in which the government, washington, will be controlling health care unless something changes. >> today was not a good day for freedom, for struggle american families who wish to keep the health care that they have. i respect the ruling of the supreme court and i respectfully and disagree with it. >> maybe i'm wrong. who do you want here? so when did they use the 60 votes to get the super majority? >> we're not going to go back and -- all the the legislature maneuvering they got at the end, the democrats employed reconciliation at one pint to get that through. >> but in the actual passage of

the bill, they didn't do it. >> we're both half right. >> couldn't have done it without 60 votes though.ç now i'm at a loss here. let's talk about the second part of this thing. the boring part. the medicaid part. with medicaid now, they cannot sanction the states by completely screwing them basically if they don't go along with this expansion, anybody who makes less than 33% of the poverty level. >> right. >> okay. thank you. this is such a big day for howard and i, we can't get over giggles. we're going to go to the tapes of you and me. coming up, is this a fight with mitt romney? is he going to keep it up? i don't think anybody wants to hear mitt romney talk about health care since he created it up in massachusetts and that might be brought up. and as expected, the house's vote to hold attorney general in contempt with some walking out in protest. what a huge day in american politics and this is "hardball," the place for it, politics.

>> the government could decide we're going tax you if you don't eat broccoli on tuesday. apparently, that's now constitutional. but i don't think it's a very wise law. ♪ the one and only, cheerios

another lesson today on how perilous it is to predict what the supreme court will do. a lot of people like to look at it in trade, the online market to predict the future. got the health care decision wrong today. this week in advance of the decision, the guess was relatively 75%. ouch. didn't happen.

welcome back to "hardball." the president scored a big win ç today, but in the court of public opinion, the health care

law remains unpopular. that's mainly thanks to the individual mandate, the idea that almost everybody has to get health insurance or pay a penalty for not doing it. today, the president tried to defend that provision. >> uninsured people who can afford care get sick and show up at the emergency room for care, the rest of us end up paying for their care in the form of higher premiums. that's why even though i knew it wouldn't be politically popular and resisted the idea when i ran for this office, we ultimately included the provision that people who can afford to buy health insurance should take the responsibility to do so. in fact, this idea is enjoyed support from members of both parties including the current republican nominee for president. >> of course, romney has strongly defended mandates in the past. he was vowing to defend the bill, but will obamacare become a major part of this campaign? will he have a choice?

mark halperin, senior political analyst here at msnbc. michael steele, former chair of rnc. i have to ask you, in terms of the nature of this campaign we're facing with an unemployment rate that looks to be around 8, we know where the situation lies now. so what will be the deciding factors? will it be something like this that rolls out and becomes a bigger story even than it was today? >> i think it has that potential, particularly if the romney team does not come to the table with a level of specifics about what he would do.ç this whole repeal and replace idea, i love it, but the reality of it is once the house moves next week to repeal, someone's going to have to start talking about what the to replace it with. what's important is that the messaging of on the heels of this ruling has to be one of taking the country to the next step in terms of what republicans say and i think this thing could be a sleeper in this election. >> have you heard any republican alternative to the mandate for

paying for this thing? >> there are individual pieces out there that particularly the 14 members of the house who are doctors, have talked about. that has to come together in a way to say if we don't do the mandate, what are we going to do and how are we going to pay for it. we've got a lot of taxes that come online next year and that is how obama's planning to pay for this. this now becomes i think a sleeper issue. >> you know, fdr had a wonderfully sarcastic way of talking about the republican party. they always take something the democrats have just done and say we could do that, too, in a way that won't cost you anything. they always do that after the fact. can they get away with it this the democrats will cost you this mandate or penalty. we can give you preexisting coverage, adult children coverage, but it won't cost you anything. >> i don't think you have to look back any further than the

last election where republicans were shockingly deficient in offering an alternative to deficit reduction, but said the president's not doing a good enough job. vote for us. they didn't have any ideas.ç it may end up being the same on health care. people inside the beltway and northeast corridor are skeptical of the bain argument. i think health care on the other side may be it. when i go out with governor romney and he talks about repealing obama care is as raw as anything else he talks about. i don't think it's a reach at all to say obamacare has higher taxes and small business doesn't like it. republicans have been talking for montes about how it relates to the president's record on the economy, so i think for sure he'll talk about it and i don't think he'll talk about it reluctantly. i think it will be one of his strongest arguments. >> stay on this, mark. does the fact that the supreme

court relied on the taxing authority of the president to basically give this constitutional muster. will that give the republicans an argument right there? >> they certainly think so. i read about 200 republican tweets and press releases today and almost all of them focused on that. i think the president's remarks today are a great start for him to try the to make the case about why the mandate is a conservative idea. why it's a necessary thing. i think he's going to have to keep that up because i don't think governor romney is going to back off and i don't think most voters are going to care about what he did in massachusetts. the incumbent won't get rid of it, he'll implement it. >> mitt romney today said he disagreed with the court's decision and promises to repeal health care if he wins the election.ç >> what the court did today was say that obamacare does not violate the constitution. what they did not do was say that obamacare is good law or that it's good policy.

obamacare was bad policy yesterday. it's bad policy today. obamacare was bad law yesterday. it's bad law today. if we want good jobs and a bright economic future for ourselves and our kids, we must replace obamacare. that is my mission. that is our work and i'm asking the people of america to join me. >> that was rather like talking with a staff written script, but it might work. mitt romney has strongly backed health care however, mandates, even. the president's plan was modelled on romney's in massachusetts. today, video was found of romney defending mandates in order to bring health care costs down. this is from 2006. not a million years ago. >> regards to the mandate, the individual responsibility program, which i proposed, i was very pleased to see that the compromise from the two houses

includes the personal responsibility. that is essential for bringing health care costs down for everyone and getting everybody the health insurance they deserve and need. >> you know, the whole of presidents down there, just sort of feed in the script, the voice in the statue that speaks a different line. he just went from one to another based on the script. how does he do this?ç they don't care who chops this program. >> absolutely and i think that's going to be the corner stone of the romney strategy going forward. like a lot of folks who began to realize, i don't think he backs off. he pushes full steam ahead and going to link it to the economic argument as much he can. how it ties into jobs and the small businesses. the weight of the tax burden on the taxpayer as well as businesses. interesting though is what the president does and started to do

today is fashioning this ironically from a conservative. you know that a conservative personal responsibility argument which i think is going to be fascinating for him to make, especially because he was against the mandate and romney was for the mandate before he was against it, so these two gentlemen have crafted a very interesting dialogue. >> president obama doesn't want to talk about it anymore. he said so today. when ever they start move on, mark, every time i hear the word, move on, that means please. i'm clinching. michael steele, mark halperin, thank you, gentlemen. up next, see what happens when a republican member of congress thinks the law's been overturned. i'm not going to say which networks had this story completely wrong, but you can guess it wasn't this one and this is "hardball," the place for politics. >> time and again, he has shown political courage. i think, i said to him. i said this is a cost of politics versus thpolicy and you got to weigh it.

you have other things on the agenda you want to do.ç can you make a political move and to his credit, he asked, he wanted the honest opinion. i gave him the honest advice. [ male announcer ] if a phone rings at your car insurance company

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so you might make different sounds, like happy human sounds. esurance. insurance for the modern world. click or call. back to "hardball." the supreme version. if you thought this was a big day free of political side shows, wait for this. initial reporting on the decision not on msnbc led many to believe the health care law had been struck down. and resulted in some premature celebrations by republicans. a tweet from michigan congressman, quote, this is a big win for liberty in the constitution. it was short lived, however, but he wasn't alone. a cell phone captured a congresswoman reacting to the misinformation.

>> speak! >> oh, thank god -- no -- >> they took it away? >> yes, yes! >> get this. the president himself also got wrapped up in the confusion. he, too, initially thought it was struck down. white house aides said obama walked into the oval office, white house council followed after giving the president two thumbs up, that the law survived what was a roller coaster, but even those who did have the facts straight got caught up in the heat of the moment. executive director of the democratic national committee had three words to tweet. it's constitutional, then used ç b word that rhymes with witches.

kind of reminds me of this moment just after the bill was passed. [ bleep ]. moving on, just days after reviving his phony death panel warnings, sarah palin tweeted quote, obama lied to the american people again. he said it wasn't a tax. obama lies. freedom dies. that's sarah palin. freedom dies? really, governor? it might just be rand paul who takes the cake with his statement on the ruling. quote, just because the couple of people on the supreme court declare something to be constitutional doesn't make it so. actually senator paul when the supreme court says something is constitutional, by definition, it is. but now to switch gears, this whole historic decision really comes down to two people who provide the key swing vote. just a few years ago, the two

men shared another historic event. >> i, barack hussein obama, do solemnly swear -- >> that i will execute -- >> that i will execute -- >> the office of the president of the united states faithfully and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the united states. >> preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the united states. >> so help you god? >> so help me god. >> congratulations, mr. president.ç >> up next t house votes.

back to "hardball." welcome back. today, the republican-led house of representatives took the unprecedented step of holding eric holder in contempt of congress and leaders led by the congressional black caucus staged a walk out protest the vote.

>> there's something evil about using the house, especially something as severe as holding someone in contempt of congressç to further political aims is not want to american people sent us here.

the claims about it, catherine wrote the article and sahry horowitz writes for the "washington post," had an exclusive interview with the

today we had a hearing about what's going on in iraq. i think it's an unfair assume

shun to assume that because you're holding a hearing, somehow it will be urn fair. it was balance here. we were left with no other option. you have a dead agent. you have a letter that was a high. and then we're just supposed to walk away from that. that would be malpractice. >> what do you make of the fortune magazine article that tlss was no effort to allow the gunss to walks. did they always enforce the law where they had a law to enforce? >> i totally disagree. we had a number of whistle-blowers that came to us and provided documentation that said the guns were running. we were given a letter in february, that ten months çlat, the department of justice had to pull back because it was a lie. let me ask you, are you for toughr enforcement of gun laws

would you like to see a more aggressive atf that stops anybody that looks suspicious in phoenix, where you had 800 gun shops. >> as the congresswoman and i have said, gun walking is wrong. >> you answer my question. do you believe in more aggressive enforcement of gun laws? >> yes. ok at straw purchasing. that's felony wrong. of course we need to enforce that. what was wrong in this case, the department of justice went to the gun dealers and said despite it being against the law, let's allow nearly 2,000 ak-47s get in the hands of the drug lords the sit lel cartel and others. that's so wrong. if that was bush, you'd be all over it. >> no, i think it was bush that started this program, don't you? >> under operation gun

>> then brewer comes along in 2009 and they start fast and furious. it's not right now. >> well said. thank you congressman of utah. next back to health care. under the politics, what the supreme court did was good for real people with real health issues. this is "hardball" the place for politics.

we've got some fresh new results from the nbc marist poll. let's go to the score board. in michigan president obama won

easily four years ago. 47-43 over romney. not good enough. race there tightening.ç it's closer in north carolina where our poll has president obama off by two. too close for comfort for the president. let's look at new hampshire. it's all tied up there. 45-45. very telling here. this ask a very close election near. we'll be back.

because of this law, there are other americans, others sons and daughters, brothers and sisters were fathers and mothers who will not have to hang their fortunes on chance. these are the americans r whom we passed this law. >> we're back. of course that is president obama speaking today off the supreme court upheld his health care law. what a day it's been for the president. we've talked a lot today about the politics by the decision of the supreme court. the 5-4 approving it. how's it going to affect real people?

zeke emanuel worked on adviser to president obama and is an msnbc contributor. he chairs the medical ethics at the university of pennsylvania. teresa brown is author of "critical care: a new nurse faces death, life, and everything in between." she's also a blogger for "the new yo time." teresa i want to get to you ç about a leukemia patient. break it down what that meant to you and a patient like that, the ruling today. >> the issue why we needed the affordable care act was brought home to me one afternoon when i was taking care of a new leukemia patient that started to talk to me about death panels. i told him there was no such thing as death panels. he satd really? because i hoped there were. and he didn't have health insurance. and he was convinced that the care he would need

really, because i hoped there were, and he didn't have health insurance, and he was convinced that the care he would need to cure his leukemia would bankrupt his family. he ran his own business, he had worked his whole life. his wife had health insurance, but he was not on her policy, and i'm guessing from things he told me, he couldn't afford it, but whatever the reason, he wasn't insured, had always been healthy, and then he was suddenly very, very sick, and his wish was for the government to actually assassinate him rather than his family having to lose their livelihood to save his life. >> well, how was his condition different in terms of his finance, $20,000 for these chemo injections, which staggers us watching and listening, how can anything cost $20,000 for an injection, but what will his situation be, it's been passed into law now, it's clearly challenged by the courts, so how's it look now for him or a person like him? >> it looks so much better, because there's so many provisions in the affordable care act that should help so many americans that couldn't get insurance get it. for one thing, subsidies that will go to people who can't plans to expand medicaid, there

are also a lot of provisions to lower the cost of premiums, and that will make insurance more affordable for the average american, so there's lots of different ways, including state-run insurance exchanges that peoplwho in the past simply couldn't afford insurance should be able to. >> that's micro, that's what real life is, of course, it's frightening the cost of medicine, $20,000 for a injection, but will the individual mandate, that was what's at stake today and we know we have to do something, no more walking into an e.r. without an effort on your part, financial on your part, how's that going to affect the price of premium for insurance? >> it's going to bring it down. >> explain how it works. >> services from a hospital or services from a doctor and they don't pay for them, someone's got to cover those costs, because it's not free, whether the x-ray machine or lab test, the hospital folds it into the

cost they charge everyone else who's paying and it's estimated on a family premium, it was over $1,000, so that will go down, and then, in addition -- >> because a lot of healthy people who are young will be getting themselves insured, right? >> well, a lot of healthy people will be insured, but also everyone will have coverage, so we'll pay in. in addition, states were often paying hospitals or doctors when provided this uncompensated care out of general revenue, and that will go into providing them insurance, and it's not only that the premiums will go down, these people who hitherto didn'ç have insurance, will now be able to get preventive tests, so maybe the number of services they need will go down. >> when you explain it like a physician, you are, of public policy, sounds so simple. why does this darn bill have to be as fat as an old sears-roebuck catalog? most people don't like that.

they don't like why it's so big and complicated if it's as simple as you just said. >> two facts, the decision today, 199 pages, just deciding the issue of the bill. so talk about length, a lot of issues take time. the second thing is, it dealt with cost problems, with the number of doctors and nurses we have, with prevention, there are many things in the bill. plus, the whole health care system is $2.8 trillion, almost 20% of the whole economy. you can't regulate that in a very short bill. >> okay, thank you very much, zeke. >> but wait, i want to -- >> why did you bring your prop? >> this is my good luck charm for this bill. it's broccoli. now you have to eat your broccoli to stay healthy. >> i'm with sr. bush on this one, i eat it when it's on the plate. teresa, thank you for joining us and giving us a real-life insight and you for the big picture, which we always need.

when we return, the extraordinary decision today by one man, chief justice john roberts. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. >> announcer: meet mary. she loves to shop online with her debit card, and so does bill, an identity thief who stole mary's identity, took over her bank accounts and stole her hard-earned money. now meet jack. after 40 years, he finally saved enough to enjoy retirement. angie, the waitress at jack's favorite diner, is also enjoying his retirement.

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let me finish tonight with mr. chief justice john roberts. what a treasure in public affairs and human existence is the unpredicted, those moments a person does something that staggers the rest of us that is so phenomenal and blows us away. john roberts just performed one

of those acts, he was judicious looking at the obama health care act from all angles, how from each perspective the act does or does not pass mustard with the constitution. he did so as he said today, looking for that angle from which the obama measure could be ruled to square with this country's organizing document, admitting to looking for it until he found it. so the big question, what pushed him, what made him look until he found the route to the obama health care act to constitutional acceptability, what was it that encouraged him, john roberts, to find the taxing authority, the provision he believed gave obama's act its okay by the constitution.[b]çói well, my hunch knowing justice roberts and his wife just a bit, he wanted to do good and went looking for a way to do it consistent to his oath to respect the constitution. he wanted to protect both. that's the heart of it, and the one shot this country has in looking at the welfare of all our people and the one way it could square with the constitutionally limited government.

there is in our church a commiti't to social justice, runs deep and wide, crossing sad divides between right and left and holds to the central belief shared by so many religions to look out for our brothers and sisters on this work, every man for himself and steers us towards something finer, towards obligation in our lives towards our fellow mankind. it is worthy, it is good, today the supreme court agreed with it saying that when it comes to health and health care, we americans have no obstacle to doing what is right, so let's put our heads in the pillow tonight saying this is a good day for our country, a good day to have lived and known we live in a good country, one that is trying harder each generation to be better. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "the ed show" with ed schultz starts right now. good evening, americans, and welcome to "the ed show" live from washington, d.c. the american people have won a historic victory in the supreme court. the affordable care act is

constitutional and nothing will ever change that. that is "the ed show," let's get to work. the bottom line here is the supreme court has withheld the health care law. >> the supreme court has stunned the nation. the affordable care act is here to stay. >> the highest court in the land has now spoken. we will continue to implement this law. >> the law would not have passed without democratic leader nancy pelosi. tonight she joins me for an exclusive interview on today's ruling. >> so it's not a job killer. >> it's not. it creates 4 million. >> on mitt romney's reaction to the ruling. >> listening to mitt romney today was confused. >> and the future for single payer. >> as far as our families are concerned, the best is yet to ç come as more of this bill, of this act, unfold. also tonight, former governor howard dean and congressman george miller on how this ruling will change your life forever. karen finney on the politics of the ruling and the far right wing reaction. >> this was an activist court that you saw today.