didn't build microsoft, go down the list, that joe and his colleagues didn't build this enterprise, to say something like that is not just foolishness, it's insulting to every entrepreneur and innovator in america and it's wrong. >> they found a phrase to focus on. good morning, everyone. it's wednesday, july 18th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. yeah. i want to hear about that. wasp in the air. that's not a good day. we'll get to that. national affairs editor for "new york" magazine and msnbc political analyst john heilemann. like a wasp in your ear. and msnbc political analyst and visiting professor at nyu, former democratic congressman harold ford jr. >> good morning. >> how was your night with tiffany? >> tiffany amber thiessen, more on that later, she's great. great american. >> god. it's just not right. i'm serious. >> no telling what willie will or won't do after dark.

>> that's a true statement, mike barnicle. we have some news to get to. >> we do. we do. you might just be be -- >> might be in that news. >> who spends an evening with tiffany when they do a show like this? but okay. >> willie geist. >> i want to hear about that. sounds like something people would want to hear in the morning. >> oh, my goodness. i'll tell you. after we do headlines. >> we'll do news and talk about mike's trip to the hospital. >> who? >> and a violent attack by a wasp. mitt romney was in pennsylvania yesterday looking to use those remarks from president obama. you heard them as we bumped in. he made them on friday to refocus the campaign narrative, suggesting that the president has an anti-business bias. >> in the past, people of both parties understood that encouraging achievement, encouraging success, people to lift themselves as high as they can, encouraging entrepreneurs, celebrating success instead of

attack it makes america strong. that's the right course for this country. his course is extraordinarily foreign. >> the obama campaign responded to romney's criticism, defending the president's comments on businesses, writing in part, there are critical actions we must take to support businesses and encourage new ones. that means we need the best infrastructure, a good education system, and affordable domestic sources of clean energy. those are investments we make not as individuals, but as americans and our nation benefits from them. i -- i mean, john heilemann, i feel a little tired by this. if i defend the president's comme comments, you know what you will say. but at the same time you knew what he was saying. do they really have to bicker over this. is this just trying to get the attention off mitt romney's tax returns which is a true mystery? >> yes, yes, no and yes. >> yeah. >> look, the president had said something, if you read the statement, he said -- at one

point he said you didn't build that business. it was, to my mind, a classic gaffe not in the literal sense, not the classic gaffe, but if you read that sentence in isolation, it doesn't sound good and its provides fodder for people on the right who want to cast him as being anti-capitalist. read the whole thing in context, it's clear, i feel like this should be the standard for all candidates, try to understand what they're trying to say, not try to catch them on statements that they make. i think this should be true for governor romney and president obama. listen to what he was trying to say, saying things like -- you hear -- he was trying to say, nobody gets there on their own. there is structures that -- >> that we need to work together and washington needs to work together. you can take the metaphor on and on. >> and you have mitt romney yesterday saying, you know, he's saying steve jobs didn't build apple. he didn't say that. >> didn't say that. >> and if steve jobs were alive today he would sit at this table and say, without the government,

there would never have been darpa and if there wasn't darpa there wouldn't have been an internet and without an internet the world wide web and without the world wide web there wouldn't be itunes. that's the point the president is trying to make and i don't think it's defending him excessively to try to place his comments in the proper context and try to get what he was actually trying to say, not what someone who's trying to attack him would make him want to say. >> did the president step in it in some way? >> i think john said it well. both sides are guilty of this. romney has made comments about how he may like to fire people and try to clarify. read it in context you get a better sense. >> is this an opportunity for the romney campaign, thinking, you know, prog matically? i have to say maybe my viewpoint is so skewed i don't see it because i mean romney was making it a signature speech, big banner in the background and going on and on about it. am i missing something politically? >> regrettably, this is a huge

dimension of current american politics, where the gotyou moment, one statement taken out of context from 50 or 100 other sentences in the statement may come across as appearing callous and sensitive and for that matter, not caring or consider ate about the economic concerns of certain class of people in the country. i can't wait for the conversation to be elevated. looks like we're getting there and getting a little closer, at least they're talking about the future of the country and what we have to do in order to make it better. but this little episode here, i blame the press a little bit for focusing a little too much on it as well. but both campaigns are guilty of this petty, small-minded politics. >> i agree with john, too, it's incumbent on all of us -- >> it is. >> to balance it. should be the standard for both sides. the corporations are people comment, we know what he was talking about when mitt romney said that. corporations employ people, give health care to people.

i hope that the press jumps as hard on mitt romney as it has on -- on president obama as it has on mitt romney. >> we are a month away from the conventions and i am already sick of this campaign. >> tired. >> i'm already sick of it. i mean, anyone with a common sense knows what the president was talking about yesterday. i mean, you know, no one does it alone in this country. you know, that's part of the reason the country is so great. >> so great. >> you don't do it alone. you need a road to get to the factory, public transportation to go to work. >> schools to produce your employees. >> celebrate that and cherish that. >> you need a firefighter to come if there's -- no one does it alone. >> if the president had connected it quickly with infrastructure investment and maybe he did in the entire speech, i didn't see it all -- >> that's part of the problem. >> we didn't see that. >> he didn't have to say anything more, you know. unless you're engaged in cheap shots he didn't have to say anything more. if you sit there, if you're out in des moines, iowa, listening

to him, stockton, california, you know what the president meant. we're in an age where we tweet the news. oh, you know, obama, gaffe. #screwup. we are in a ridiculous age. >> i agree. >> and we're going to learn nothing about this country from these two guys if the campaign continues this way. you talk to people during the ordinary course of a day. they don't care about this. they want to know where are we going? where are you going? this is a job application. you want this job four more years tell us where we're going, what are we going to do. >> we're not hearing that. >> nothing. >> mitt romney tell us what you're about, because he mentions steve jobs in his highly inaccurate assessment of what the president had said and other business leaders --papa j >> mentioned people who had large personal fortunes as does he, and that's about all we know. for all the romney efforts he

keeps bringing it back to this every time he calls about this. the chorus calling for him to release more of his tax returns is growing, much from within his own party. former presidential candidate rick perry chimed in on romney's tax situation. >> i'm a big believer that no matter who you are or what office you're running for, you should be as transparent as you can be with your tax returns and other aspects of your life so that people have the appropriate ability to judge your background and what have you. >> and the national review on-line put out an editorial titled "release the returns," saying in part romney is a politician running for the highest office in the land and his current posture is probably unsustainable. romney pushed back against those calls during an interview with our nbc affiliate in pittsburgh. >> i think people in my party just say look, this is a nonissue, release the returns it will go away.

my experience is that the democratic party these days approach taxes in a different way than in the past. their opposition people look for anything they can find to distort, twist and try to make negative and i want to make this a campaign about the economy and creating jobs and they want to make this a campaign about attacking people and diverting attention from our job picture in this country. >> this isn't going to go away. the problem is, this is a mystery and the problem is, the more he doesn't release the tax returns, mort he looks like the evil 1%, the people who make a lot of money and don't want to share the loopholes and the other tax ways they've been able to get around the system and the they don't want to share about it because they don't want to fix it and they want to keep their money and that's what it looks like. it makes people angry and he needs to get it behind him and i don't get his campaign, that they thought this would go away. seriously? what's wrong with his campaign? they put him in a stadium with two people in it.

they do stupid things for this guy. they are so completely inept at propping this guy up. just get those returns out be during the primary when newt gingrich was bellowing about them, because the only person who's been hypocritical about it so far among prominent republicans is newt gingrich who screamed for the tax returns to be released and then backtracked this week and said oh, no, no, no, we ought to protect him, i'm for mitt romney. please. just get them out. this is pathetic and boring. >> that was an awesome newt gingrich imitation. >> you can see his face grinchl up when not telling the truth. he's the only one that feels like doing that at this point. the rest of the republican party want him to release them because the whole thing makes them cringe. >> why do you think he hasn't released them? >> he's a good man. i doubt he did anything inappropriate. i would be stunned if anything was found in those tax returns that showed there was something, you know, illegal.

he just made a lot of money. >> you know the question -- >> he got to shelter it well. >> the question to ask him about his tax returns and it won't be asked in most of the forums he's doing where they do ask questions is that in the course of his business career, which has been solid -- >> right. >> made a lot of money. >> respectable, honest, diligent, whatever -- >> people like that. >> in the course of his business career, with bain, bain and company, did they ever do only two years worth of due diligence on companies they purchased? you just want to release two years of tax returns. did they ever just do two years of due diligence in purchasing a corporation? the answer would be no! >> there are a million different ways to cut that and there's no question -- >> you're in business. >> and there's, you know, you point to him, the number of years he gave to mccain and you point to the tax returns -- the vice presidential candidates currently vetting i'm sure are giving more than two years of

tax returns to mitt romney to examine them. mika, i think your point is right, in the sense that i mean people have said this a million times they should have sat down in the summer of 2011 when no one was paying and brought a bunch of reporters in the room and gone through ten years of tax returns and had a bad story a year ago and moved on. we've answered all these questions and moved forward. i don't know, i think george will last weekend said the truest thing that's been said. he is a rationale guy, weighing the costs of how much damage he's -- how much water he's taking on now, damaged by this, versus how much damage he would be inflicted on him if people saw the tax returns. he may be making a perfectly rationale calculation. there may be worse things in the tax returns. we don't know. is cayman islands swiss bank accounts, bermuda, those are toxic in an important part of the electorate. people hear those things and it is bad for mitt romney. if there are over the course of 10 or 15 years, a lot more of

that, is there political damage there? possibly. are there years he paid no taxes? possibly. is there a lot of -- a number that would surprise people a lot more giving to the mormon church than we know about and is uncomfortable talking about mormonism, yes. he is making a judgment and clearly decided he is going to try to tough this out, because he thinks it's worse if he releases them. >> the other thing, not to defend him at all, they may point to -- i've heard his campaign officials point to the fact that this has not affected their campaign, their polling standing in some of the key states. if you begin to see a drop and we see new numbers come soon, it may encourage him to do it. on another note, just to build on three points already made, it says a lot about, to me, the kind of president this guy might be to avoid laying out facts, to avoid disclosing until it may hurt him politically or personally. you think about some of the questions that political

figures, certainly the political parties nationally and what presidents have had to confront over the last 8 to 12 years, and as an american, worried about civil liberty, worried about our involvement around the globe, as an american worried about government's involvement in the private sector investments if this president -- if mitt romney as governor as a candidate is unwilling to share his own personal background, his own tax returns from the last several years because he's afraid a young opposition research in the democratic national committee may point out something that's there, i think the american people are going to pay a little closer attention to this, even if there's nothing there. i doubt -- as a matter of fact, i'm pretty certain there's nothing illegal illicit or unlawful there. it's just embarrassing. >> the question then is, how long can he ride this out? can he -- >> i think if ohio, colorado, nevada numbers begin to drop, people can point to that, i think it may cause him to do it. until then, i think his campaign -- i take them on what they've been saying on some of our shows on this network and other networks not that i watch

them, but i read the quotes they make on other networks, until their poll numbers are effective they don't see a need to release them. what kind of president would this guy be if his administration is withholding da data, hide information -- >> i'm going back to his campaign. i feel bad for him. who wouldn't -- why wouldn't you -- and maybe you could educate me -- >> i had to release all of my tax returns and i -- there was nothing there that was of interest to anybody. i released all of my work from the time i started work when i ran for senate in tennessee i had to release ten years of tax returns. >> say everything john heilemann is potentially sore spots in his tax returns are true. could he have gotten this behind him, had he just leased them a long time ago. >> what john shared is the strategy that should have been followed. >> if it was, it would be such a minor discussion that wouldn't have an impact on the campaign. >> harold knows in the end -- >> they have to do it. >> in the end, campaigns come back to the candidate. you know, we don't know what

advice he's gotten from people inside. there may have been many urging him to do this earlier. if the candidate does not want to follow that advice, there's no one that can force him to do it. the questions don't go to -- he may be getting bad advice, good advice, but the question is what he wants to do. he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do and there's no question he's personally uncomfortable talking about money, he's -- it's been shown for a long time on bain and on the taxes, he does not like talking about wealth. i think it's with the candidate is where the responsibility lies. >> leads perfect throw this next segment, when pressed by the national review in an interview about why he still hasn't closed his offshore accounts for political purposes, mitt romney responded like this, he said, quote, all of my investments are managed in a blind trust. by virtue of that, the decisions made by the trustee are the decisions that determine where the investments are. in other words, out of his control. and not his decision. but here's what --

>> willie, you showed this morning. >> here's what mitt romney said about blind trusts running for the senate in massachusetts against ted kennedy in '94. >> the blind trust is an age-old ruse, which is to say, you can always tell the blind trust what it can and cannot do. you give a blind trust rules. >> so, back then, when he didn't have a blind trust, he thought they were ruses. age-old ruses. and now he's using that age-old ruse. am i like at the top of the show when we accuse mitt romney of taking the context of what the president was saying and manipulating it? am i manipulating anything here? >> look, he -- candidates make comments all the time, five, ten, 15, 20 years ago and have to come back and explain. interesting to hear how he explains this. as someone who runs for office you make comments -- >> this seems like a big businessman who makes a lot of money who likes to manipulate comments. >> the country is built and

based and predicated as what you've said this morning, i think the question here is, people are curious and our questions are, if you run for public office you have to expose yourself. rick perry and republicans and democrats have said. i don't have an issue with that. if he decides, mitt romney, he does not want to release his returns, and john is right, candidates make this decision he will have to live with the consequences of voters not voting for him. i think mike's question for mitt romney in particular, because of his role in the private sector in the way he went about making his money, which i think private equity companies are not a bad thing at all, i've said this on the show, your question goes to him and his partners in a way and touches him in a way other questions may not. there is -- it's very unlikely they would have made investments with pension money from universities, from public unions and private corporations, without having looked more than two years at a company. i think if that question is asked by the obama campaign and by those who conduct these interviews and conduct the

debates, you will put him in such a position, and even asking those in the private equity world is it common to make those kind of investments, i think you'll find the answer to be what we're suggesting here on the show, that the answer is no and you should release more. >> quickly to mika's point, forget about in this case, there's a reality, it is true that you can tell a blind trustee what to -- you can set down parameters. what he said in 1994, forgtsz about the word ruse you can go to your boo trustee and say i don't want investments in tobacco, russian arms dealers. he did not do that and as someone thinking about running for president a long time, it raises weird questions about just as a matter of political prudence why he didn't talk to the blind trustee and say no swiss bank accounts, no cayman, no foreign stuff. no bermuda. let's not do that. i say it's just not very prudent. >> thinking someone in the campaign might want to bat around the idea, maybe, not ultimately go for it, bat around the idea that all this problem

here with these sound bites on blind trusts and the mystery surrounding his tax returns, is setting up more of the concept that the very, very rich live by different rules and you know what, in the age of disparity, in a recession, that won't sell. just consider it. maybe i'm wrong. i could be wrong. coming up, a dire warning for state economies even if the national economy rebounds. former new mexico governor bill richardson and the "financial times" gillian tett joins us to discuss a new study out this morning. star of the hit show "glee" jane lynch and super bowl winning receiver for the new york giants, victor cruz. up next the politico playbook. mike allen has details on anthony weiner's interview on "people" magazine including how the former congressman is responding to rumors he might run for mayor. first bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> notice how warm it is already. this heat wave really didn't go anywhere overnight.

it is a warm, muggy start to your day up the eastern seaboard and middle of the country. it is 85 degrees to start your morning from boston to new york. it's just gross. the only location hotter is st. louis, which, of course, has been one of the hottest spot in the country all during this heat wave. so today, things change. it's a very hot morning. it's going to be up near into the mid 90s near 100 around d.c. but thunderstorms some strong thunderstorms are likely today for new england, through the mid-atlantic region later this afternoon. could cause some problems. we could see areas with power outages. there is a threat of wind damage and hail with these storms. also, the middle of the country, no relief for you from kansas city to st. louis to wichita. today once again well above 100 degrees including indianapolis. the only areas with the break is the great lakes and new england, and the same pretty much goes for tomorrow and that heat, it looks relentless right now if you're in oklahoma city to kansas to kansas city, no relief in sight for you. so one more really hot day,

washington, d.c., 100 degrees, sun is already up, thunderstorms will cool you off later today. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. the medicare debate continues in washington... ...more talk on social security... ...but washington isn't talking to the american people. [ female announcer ] when it comes to the future of medicare and social security, you've earned the right to know. ♪ ...so what does it mean for you and your family? [ female announcer ] you've earned the facts. ♪ washington may not like straight talk, but i do. [ female announcer ] and you've earned a say. get the facts and make your voice heard on medicare and social security at earnedasay.org.

27 past the hour. time to take a look at the morning papers. from "the new york times" senate democrats proposing a new way to avoid falling off the so-called fiscal cliff next year allowing republicans to keep their pledge not to vote for any tax increase. all right. democrats hope to find new sources of federal revenue by allowing the bush tax cuts to expire at the end of the year. they would then schedule a vote in 2013 to cut taxes for the middle class. >> parade of papers, the "boston globe" taking a look at massachusetts senate race between scott brown and democrat challenger elizabeth warren. new analysis of fund-raising

figures show brown is collecting 60% of his donations of more than $200 from inside the base state while warren collects 40% of her larger donations from massachusetts residents. the rates between warren and brown one of the most expensive in the country. >> the philadelphia inquirer, take the statute down or we will. a plane dragged this banner over state college parks pa, home of penn state. the banner refers to the 900-pound statute of joe paterno that stands outside of beaver stadium installed in 2001. paterno was fired from his head coaching job at the school in the wake of the jerry sandusky child sex abuse case. all right. let's take a look at politico. >> joining us now with a first look at the playbook, politico's chief white house correspondent mike allen. mike, good morning. >> good morning, guys. >> so there's been a lot of talk about anthony weiner, name suddenly back in the news, coincides with a piece about his home life.

we've heard the rumors in the new york papers anyway that he might be thinking about running for mayor or some other elected office just to get himself back in. what do we know about it? >> willy, people washington correspondent spent the better part of the day with former congressman weiner and his wife, hillary clinton's deputy chief of staff, and she found a very happily married couple, which could come as a surprise to a lot of people. "people" magazine, issue on newsstands friday, has the first photo of the couple with their baby jordan and congressman weiner is still profane, still opinionated but seems to be a great dad. he was going on and on about jordan's first pureed pasta. he does all the laundry in the household. and houma said she invited the reporter into the house because she said i want people to know we're a normal family. i'm proud to be married to him.

he did a stupid thing, but he's in counseling and said it helped and probably doing all the laundry helps too. >> no doubt he's a good father. i wonder, cynics would say this is part of a pr campaign -- >> it's "people" magazine. >> what is he thinking politically, if anything right now, mike? >> it's clear, sandra makes the point in the piece it's clear he wants to stay in the mix. he said that the stories that have come out about him, perhaps running for mayor of new york city, public advocate in new york city, i can tell you from behind the scenes he's done nothing to discourage those stories, but he tells sandra, i'm doing nothing to plan a campaign. mika and willy, you can read between the lines of that. nothing imminent. >> we wish the best for the family certainly. hope it works out. yesterday jon john mccain making waves with politico, on why he shoes sarah palin as his running mate why he didn't choose mitt romney was it because of the tax

returns? mccain said no, because we thought sarah palin was the better candidate. why did we not take pawlenty, any of the other ten people, why didn't i? because we had a better candidate, the same way with all the others. senator mccain clarified later in the day what he meant by better. what did he say, mike? >> the most fascinating thing, and this bolsters the point mika was making at the top of the show, there's nothing illegal in the returns, after there was a lot about this comment, senator mccain said he can personally vouch that there was nothing in the returns that would have disqualifieded mitt romney from being his running mate. steve schmidt, who was top aded visor of the campaign, and of course famous from the hbo movie, said that the optics of these two rich guys running was something very much on their mind. he said between the two of them, between mitt romney and john mccain, they would have hadded a dozen or more houses. steve schmidt said it was

something like out of a "saturday night live" skit. mitt romney was too rich for the job, not that he had done anything shady. >> steve said he personally didn't see the tax returns but some people within the campaign did. have we heard from them at all specifically about what might be in them? >> no. what we have is senator mccain saying they weren't disqualified. that can mean just about anything. but he's saying that was not the reason. his wealth apparently was. which is fascinating. not something we knew before. >> mike allen, we'll look inside the politico playbook. thanks so much. >> have a great day. i'll go do some laundry. >> it's official. lin sanity is over. done. in new york city. the knicks let go of the best thing to happen to the team in a long time. we'll explain why they did it in sports. [ cellphone rings ]

the wife. hey, babe. got the jetta. i wiped the floor with the guy! not really. i would've been fine with 0% for 36 months, but i demanded 60. no...i didn't do that. it was like taking candy from a baby. you're a grown man. alright, see you at home. [ male announcer ] the volkswagen autobahn for all event. we good? we're good. [ male announcer ] at 0% apr for 60 months, no one needs to know how easy it was to get your new volkswagen. that's the power of german engineering.

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time for sports now. the cluck clock has struck midnight on lin sanity in new york. the knicks chose not to match the houston rockets, three-year $21.5 million offer to jeremy lin before the deadline at 11:59 last night. lin now returns to the houston rockets, a team that cut him before last season.

the structure of lin's new deal was the problem, pay him almost $15 million in the final year that would have cost the knicks an estimated $35 million in luxury tax, penalties in addition to lin's salary had they chosen to match the offer and keep lin. the rockets are below the luxury tax cutoff and not subject to any additional charges. but was letting lin really a good business move? lin was making about $788,000 in salary for the knicks. the madison square garden company's value shot up about $600 million since his first start. "new york times" estimates rumors of lin's departure from the knicks has caused the company's stock val valuation to drop $50 million. the knicks have to replace what they brought to that place, excitement, marketing, points, assists and then we will turn to combination the two-headed monster of raymond felton and jason kidd. >> who brings a lot of excitement all the time with his --

>> driving under. >> driving under the influence. >> did get a dwi out in the hamptons last weekend. tweeted last night, writing much love and thankfulness to the knicks in new york for your up support this past year. easily the best year of your life. #forevergrateful. this is a nicking franchise that is worried about money that paid curry $60 million, steve francis, jerome james. >> #jimmydolan, dead to me. >> both knicks fans, more ronnic owner in any professional sports? >> in the history of sports no. >> dumbest, most annoying, most horrific, most -- insulting owner. >> they're going to take seats away. >> in any city or sport i've ever rooted for. >> strip you of your season tickets. >> he's a pig. >> well, good morning, mr. dolan. >> when you consider some of the reporting, this isn't like --

>> horrible. >> on-line speculation, this is reporting that he -- dolan took personal offense to jeremy lin, was more grateful for the opportunity he went out and got a bigger contract, one structured that would challenge the knicks financially, he basically said -- i'm too tired to replace the bad word i was going to say. buzz off. >> that delicate flower, his ego, very delicate. >> to baseball. great game, nats hosting the mets, mets down 9-0. launches a three-run home run to the right field seats. put the mets up a run. nats tied it in the bottom of the ninth. bottom of the tenth, nats up a run, runner on second, the kidd, bryce harper, sends one off the wall in right. that's a triple. rbi triple. tying the game at four. few batters later, bases juiced. pitch gets away. no. >> it's a wild pitch, willie. >> got away from the pitcher. ryan zimmerman comes in --

>> can't blame the catcher for that one. >> nats walk off with a 5-4 win, eighth walk-off win of the year. >> five losses in a row. >> we should pay more attention to what happens on the west coast because mike trout of the california angels. >> what a stud. >> finest young player to come into baseball, going to tell you since mickey mantle. >> wow? >> really? >> mickey mantle and willie mays. >> that good. >> he was in here last weekend playing the yankees, he is unbelievable. >> 20 years old. >> going to win the american league batting title, mvp -- >> 30 stolen bases already. >> when is last time somebody won rookie of the year and mvp. >> fred lin -- >> this guy is good. how good is this guy. >> by the way, sports fans, we have to point out in our next hour, very excited about this, new york giants wide receiver victor cruz. >> umass. >> victor cruz. umass, paterson, new jersey. he was the story of the nfl last

year and going to join us ahead on "morning joe." >> going to dance. >> remember the dance. >> author. >> ask him, harold. >> and author. >> a book coming out. >> another guy who likes to do the salsa, carl bern stein with must-read opinion pages.

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the obamas caught on the kiss cam during the usa women's basketball game versus brazil last night. michele obama looked shobd and the two smiled and waved. they got a second chance when the kiss cam found them again. this time he delivered. >> the kiss cam! the only thing that most

powerful leaders in the world bend to. it's one more reason to be thankful al gore was never president. sure, our country might never have invaded iraq, the earth's temperature would be maybe a few degrees cooler, but -- not worth it. >> that's pretty good. 45 past the hour. here with us best-selling author and award winning journalist carl bernstein, good to have you on board. we're going to do must-read opinion pages and my question after reading maureen dowd's will be to anyone who chooses to jump in, is this what i'm about to read, just for the echo chamber, just for, quote, sort of people who have one certain point of view, and does it -- i mean is that, perhaps, why the romney campaign is pushing back so hard because perhaps it doesn't poll this way across the country. but, she asks, who's on america's side? campaigning tuesday in pennsylvania, romney called obama's course az president

extraordinarily foreign. but it is the mitt bot who keeps getting caught doing things that seem strangely outside the norm to most americans. aside from his time running the salt lake city olympics, which he's happy to publiclyizize, romney's whole life from his $250 million fortune to the tenure at the cultish bain to his mormonism seems as though it's secreted in any hidden shelter, like w. he's coming across as the privileged kid who grew up at the country club and got special deals because of his dad but then runs around claiming to be a self-made businessman. that lack of self-awareness and romney's refusal to take responsibility for his own company, are disturbing traits in a leader. carl? >> well, to quote a well-known book title i think that romney's taxes are potentially a game changer. that we've got about in the polls 10% of the people might be undecided, my guess it's really 4% or 5%, and it is extraordinary to have someone

running for president that won't show his tax returns. he's going to have to show them. they can't be helpful to him. or we would have seen them by now. and he'll dump them some time in august, the doldrums of august, i guess. but this is an extraordinary moment. how can we have a candidate for the presidency of the united states who is unwilling to share his tax returns with the people of the country? i think that most reasonable people are going to say, who have an open mind, we don't want this. almost anything but this. it's wrong. it's simply wrong. >> am i missing something, and alex call things if you could, anyone at the table, any prominent republicans except for newt gingrich, which i'll just put in one category, and john mccain who has seen them, i believe, because he was vetting for v.p. pick, and so he's seen them, and these two prominent republicans are saying leave him alone. there are others stepping out

and saying, he should release them. are there any prominent republicans who are defending his choice to keep them private except for newt gingrich and john mccain? >> i don't believe that anybody is and i think even -- there are some republicans who are defending him by implication sort of saying this is not an issue, we shouldn't talk about this but no one is making a principle defense, no one is trying to say here's why he should not be required to or should not do this because there is no principle defense for that position. even like mccain, he shouldn't do it, he doesn't have to do it, it's not required by law. >> you've seen them -- >> it's not an argument. >> you should hear what they're saying in private because i talked to some and so does john and they are horrified. listen to haley barbour publicly, and imagine what haley barbour and the former chairman of the republican party is saying privately. this is actually a disgrace. >> probably very candid. >> salting.

>> it's a disgrace. if a democrat did it the democrat shouldn't be president of the united states. if a republican did it, the republican shouldn't be president of the united states. find a new nominee or make him show his taxes. >> let's see what they show. >> is he -- he's going to have to do it. >> i never liked to think there's -- there's nothing you have to do. again, you can, you know, you can decide, we talked about this earlier, you can decide it would be worse politically to release them than to take this -- he's obviously being damaged by this, but, you know, again none of us know what's in the tax returns. it's hard to make a judgment. it could be it would be worse to release them. i don't know the answer. >> carl said, probably release some of the tax returns during the doldrums of august. i think that's the phrase you used. there are no more doldrums anymore. >> right. >> that's a good point. >> 24-hour tweeting and texting and -- >> six weeks to the convention. six weeks to the convention. >> we were sitting during primaries i remember sitting here and talking about this, a number of us were saying, this is going to come back.

this is not going to go away after santorum and gingrich raised it and it's here and ought to be the biggest issue of the campaign in terms of the two personalities. >> it's also playing into the theme that the obama campaign, i think, has very effectively used, basically labeling here's the rich guy. this is the rich guy. he's different than you are. >> he has different rules. >> never mind -- before we get to the rules, he never had to worry about losing his house or job. >> not like you. >> not like you. >> not like you. >> but he's also not like you in terms of the candidates. his own father -- >> there's no reason to do it unless you don't want people to know what they show. >> all right. carl, stay with us. up next, willie's news you can't use. we're back in a moment. >> willie released all of his tax returns last night. >> so boring. >> are you going to have a good one? >> there's nothing. >> i can't wait. >> i own nothing. [ male announcer ] when this hotel added aflac

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>> willie released all of his please tell me it's time into it's time for news you can't use. mike barnicle has a good story about a wasp flying into his head. >> we're not talking about -- >> i thought it was ain't the shirt, with the wasp it. >> tell the story. what happened. >> it's not a good story and not

about wasps like mitt romney. i'm pumping gas a week ago today, putting gas in my car and a wasp flew right into my ear. >> like full speed. >> full speed. >> bang right in there. >> who does that happen to? >> mike barnicle. >> natural reaction is to go to your ear and drove the wasp in further and it began stinging me. buzzing around. >> oh, my my gosh. >> is it still in there? >> no. >> let him tell the story. two emergency rooms get the wasp out. i have to tell you, if you take some wasps to guantanamo and take any member of al qaeda and put a wasp in their ear they will tell you anything you want to know. >> how much -- >> anything. >> horrifying. >> that's horrible. >> it hurt. >> did you cry? >> i did not cry. >> were you rolling on the ground? >> it stopped stinging after three or four but the buzzing and sound of the wings in your ear -- >> did anyone catch it on iphone video? >> they would think there was a

crazy person -- >> security footage at that gas station. they all have cameras. please. >> we need that. what gas station? >> security camera -- >> get that on youtube. >> you're okay? >> yeah. >> that's how barnicle spent his last couple days. >> that's good. >> about let's see, seven hours ago, i was on live television with an icon. >> with an icon. >> tiffany amber thiessen. >> is that "90210". >> i was with andy cohen on "watch what happens live." i grew up with her. it was one of the great thrills of my life. >> i grew up with her. >> and they kind of talked me into playing this game, quick fire, where i showed off my knowledge. >> oh. >> of kelly. >> you idiot. >> prove your kelly fever. >> i can't help him, right? >> you can't. >> okay. >> willie, which member of the "saved by the bell" gang has a card board cutout of kelly in his room.

>> zach morris. >> what is the name of the girl group that starts with kelly and jesse, hot sunday, working girls or zach attack had. >> hot sunday sounds familiar. >> yes. >> really? >> what is the name of their song? "friends forever," "go for it" or "three become one". >> i'm going with "three becomes one." >> no. >> not close. >> what is the name of the 18-plus club where kelly's boyfriend jeff cheated on her with another girl? was it the attic, the cellar or the bronze? >> i remember. >> you want to say peach pit after dark but it's the wrong show. the cellar. >> no. >> the attic. >> come on. >> what high school sports team was kelly not on, cheerleading, volleyball, field hockey. >> not field hockey. >> you got it. >> think i got three out of five. >> not bad. >> the best part of the show. they asked the first block, which of willie's teenage fantasies which they made up

completely would you like to see willie execute at the end of the show with tiffany. the choices like feed grapes, hand on the knee. they went with prom dancing. we had to dance like we were at my senior prom. i danced. turning back the clock 20 years. at my prom. >> senior prom. >> no. you know the prom dancing. where you have to put your hands out and put a ruler -- >> room for the holy ghost. >> went to private school. >> parochial school. >> up next -- u.s. managing editor of the "financial times" gillian tett joins us and jane lynch. >> i love her. >> of "glee" and victor cruz from the world champs. keep it on "morning joe." the twenty billion dollars bp committed has helped fund economic and environmental recovery. long-term, bp's made a five hundred million dollar commitment to support scientists studying the environment. and the gulf is open for business - the beaches are beautiful, the seafood is delicious. last year, many areas even reported record tourism seasons.

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. after years of criticism for his poor record on boosting employment, president obama is pleased to announce today he created a job. congratulations emilio marcomfrom maryland on his new job, making charts illustrating president obama's downward spiraling approval ratings. president obama, we did it. >> we did it. >> all right. welcome back to "morning joe." look at that beautiful shot of the sun on the white house this morning. still with us mike barnicle, wow. that was just awful, redefining the term -- >> bee in a bonnet. >> yeah. that's a terrible story. >> yes. >> i'm sorry that happened to you. >> thank you. >> i will not make fun of the purple running shirt you're wearing. >> did you hear how they got it out? a little vacuum cleaner. >> two hospitals. five hours.

>> fantastic. >> mount -- >> vacuum cleaner. i love that. >> hard, terrible day. john heilemann is here. carl bernstein and joining the table u.s. managing editor for the "financial times." gillian tett. good to see you. >> thank you. >> all right. so let's try a different angle on this. but president obama made some comments that are being capitalized on as well and go there. mitt romney was in pennsylvania looking to use the remarks from president obama from friday to refocus the campaign narrative. suggesting the president has an anti-business bias. here's what the president said last week in roanoke, virginia. >> if you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. there was great teacher somewhere in your life. somebody helped to create this unbelievable american system we had that allowed you to thrive. somebody invested in roads and

brinls. if you got a business, you didn't build that. somebody else made that happen. the internet didn't get invented on its own. government research created the internet so all the companies could make money off the internet. the point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative but also because we do things together. >> mitt romney says that it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the nation's economy works. >> to say that steve jobs didn't build apple, that henry ford didn't build ford motor, that papa john didn't build papa john pizza, ray crock didn't build mcdonald's, that bill gates didn't build microsoft, you go down the list, that joe and his colleagues didn't build this enterprise, to say something like that is not just foolishness, it's insulting to every entrepreneur, every

innovator in america. it's wrong. in the past, people of both parties understood that encouraging achievement, encouraging success, encouraging people to lift themselves as high as they can, encouraging entrepreneurs, celebrating success instead of attacking it makes america strong. that's the right course for this country. his course is extraordinarily foreign. >> this is -- this campaign is reaching a nadire. the idea that we are talking about this and a candidate is talking like that, that he is appealing to such a lowest common denominator of understanding of what the issues are in this country, also that it's necessary for the president to do a little classroom thing like that, to ostensibly attack romney, let's have a real debate about where we are in the country and the terrible issues that we face. the fiscal cliff, perhaps.

>> yeah. >> and what's going to happen in january. perhaps what we need to do in terms of national service. so we can get some roads built. >> national service would be a great idea. >> this is -- >> this is insane. >> the issue about the anti-business tag for the president is actually a very powerful theme. i think we're going to see cropping up over and over again. >> but you can't it -- >> [ inaudible ]. >> i agree. >> you can't underestimate the degree of anger among many businessmen and ceos right now. i was at a meeting in washington between ceos and the white house officials and the level of anger inside that room towards the administration was astonishing. to my mind the biggest single mistake, one of the mistakes the administration made early on was to not basically try to divide wall street against the rest of business. they let the narrative slip out from behind them and basically it looked as if they were anti-business in general when they were trying to talk about wall street and that was a big

mistake that's going to hang over them. >> help us here. are business leaders and ceos watching the speech the president made in roanoke, virginia, and having a horrific reaction? >> no. i think it's more legacy on what happened two or three years ago and you've laid down the line if you like and that's what the -- >> wouldn't that be the conversation that we -- if you are taking on the president wouldn't you want to -- i'm just confused as to -- it just seems so stupid, the whole thing. both sides. >> who he's appealing to here in terms of the undecided vote and it's a kind of rhetoric -- >> there's almost a line there because he didn't say that. >> he didn't. again, it's an attack that goes to a prejudicial view of romney thinks we'll succeed -- >> that's insulting if he's talking to people in roanoke, virginia, and feels he needs to lie to them that would be insulting their intelligence. >> to get on to a serious debate

of the issues, the point about the issues talk about corporate tax reform. what do you want to see in terms of serious corporate tax reform if you want to be pro business right now? >> let me ask mr. game change too the question, because i mean you've been, you know, following the campaign, the internals of both campaigns, so why is it that at least thus far, we have not seen the republican candidate, governor romney, take more advantage of his strengths, his perceived strengths as a candidate, in terms of he's a business guy, efficiency, expertise, how to get the economy moving, corporate tax rates, individual tax rates, why have they not chosen to concentrate on his strengths? >> well, i think there's within the romney campaign there has been a conviction that they can win this election by doing nothing but talking about the president's failures, what they argue are his failures in terms

of economic management. and i think it's a myopic view and a lot of republicans think that indictment, which has traction, needs to be coupled with and affirmative, offensive and i mean on offense, not offensive as in the other way, that argument for what mitt romney, why his experience at bain in the private sector which he cites all the time, what it is an argument for what he -- the skills he learned there and practiced there, how those would apply to the american economy. republicans want to hear that, conservatives want to hear that and i think the american people need to hear that. just saying i have come from the private sector where we know how to make jobs is not an argument. talk about, you know, our magazine, "new york" magazine did a cover story on mitt romney not on sympathetics, that bain was a transformative enterprise in american capitalism, that it changed the way american business worked, that it had -- helped american companies be more efficient, connect to the

global economy better, be more competitive. romney doesn't make those arguments and in the end he has to make those arguments. what the president is saying basically it's not enough to say you're from business, all your -- all we know about you you made a lot of money. if you're going to say you're -- >> we don't know that much. >> if you're a job creator explain to us how your business experience would create jobs for americans not just enrich yourself. if he could make that argument, it would be a powerful thing. he hasn't done it so far. i think it's because they believe that you can win this election by just talking about obama and i think in the end they're probably wrong about that. >> and the tax debate, obviously, and the tax return issue, play into each other almost like a perfect storm for mitt romney. >> but the reason they don't want to talk too much about bain and that's because if you go back and look through bain's record you don't necessarily see things that play well with the american public in terms of putting a lot of debt on to companies, high levels of leverage, the kind of slash and burn, the kind of hire and firemen tallty -- >> you can find a lot of people

if you want to -- >> you can pluck a lot of people from the general population of this country that were fired because of bain. >> you can find a lot of people in companies that they created jobs. it's a record that has both sides. >> i agree. >> the story of bain reflects a bigger theme across the american economy right now, which is that you are being productive and creative, but unfortunately there's a small tier of people benefiting and many ordinary workers are not. >> that's the narrative i want to read actually a piece from "the wall street journal" that talks a little bit about that and what they could be doing with the bain legacy. but first, the mitt romney campaign released a new television ad this morning attacking president obama for misused stimulus money. take a look. >> where did all the obama stimulus money go? friends, donors, campaign supporters, special interest groups. where did the obama stimulus money go? solyndra, $500 million taxpayer dollars. bankrupt. so where did the obama stimulus

money go? wind mills from china, electric cars from finland. >> 79% of the $2.1 billion in stimulus grants awarded through went to overseas companies. >> i'm mitt romney, and i approve this message. >> i'll read from "the wall street journal" staples versus solyndra and the paper writes this, president obama's attacks on mitt romney and the company he founded bain capital are deceptive and hypocritical but team romney is compounding the damage from this character assault by conceding too much of the obama critique. mr. romney should enthusiastically defend bain and the job creating contrast that it represents. did bain have to cut jobs that built companies that created more jobs? yes. but its companies created more than they lost and this dynamic spirit of improvement and enterprise represents a far better path to prosperity than the government directed political investing of mr. obama. gillian, is there an argument,

legitimate argument to be made, pertaining to this concept, and also one that could really help better the conversation between the two candidates? >> well, there certainly is an argument to be made there are parts of the american economy right now which are very productive, creative and very exciting. the problem, though, is that they're not benefiting the massive workers. you're getting growing where you're seeing small groups of working benefits, many others losing out. bain is part of that. the big problem as chairman bernanke said in his testimony yesterday, job creation is frustrating slow or declines in unemployment even though the overall economy is not doing that badly. the more you talk about bain the more you confront the problems about what do we mean about growth in america today? growth that benefits everyone or just the top tier. and that has got to be the bit of the puzzle which the obama campaign comes back to over and over again when talking about romney. >> one other element of this,

these are complex subjects and what we're seeing in both sides in the ads, is reducing this to such utter simplicity and falseness on both sides, that we're not having a real argument about the economy. in fact, romney is fair game in terms of what he really did at bain capital, where he put his money, his taxes, what bain capital did. but let's really look at it in the context of what capitalism is and how it works. let's have a grownup discussion of these matters. we're not getting it. that ad is a perfect example. >> gillian, as you mentioned en bernanke, the fed chairman, to reach a deal to keep the country from going over the so-called fiscal cliff. bernanke asked congress to act now to avoid the steep tax hikes and massive spending cuts set to go in effect in january. bernanke said the economy has begun to stabilize and

gamesmanship over the tax cuts could only make things worse. is that the bottom? i mean, why is he the only one having this conversation? >> very good question. i mean that's a level of frustration inside the federal reserve because they're doing what they can to try to keep the economy on track. we've had qe1, qe2, may see qe3 and yet you couldn't make this stuff up. you have once again this sense of complete uncertainty about the fiscal outlook. >> that will have to wait until after the election? >> this is the moment where the campaign could get serious if we're lucky because at some point, the fiscal cliff and how each candidate proposes to deal with the fiscal cliff is going to come front and center. might not be until the debates. some smart journalist will press this. the candidates the president and governor romney will get pressed on okay, as soon as you get elected, which ever gets elected you have two months to deal with this massive thing. what's your plan? in specific. if we can get there, we might actually get to what carl is

talking about, actual discussion of how these two differ on an issue not far off in the future, an issue we have to deal with in november and december. >> larger issue is the congress of the united states and the fact that it is a broken institution and how does each candidate intend to deal with it? because our political system is broken and we've now broken the economic system because of the irresponsibility of both parties in congress. >> mike? >> i have to tell you, i love you, but you are too much of an optimist for me given the present situation. these bozos complete bozos in the house and senate, allowed the united states to have its credit rating dropped. they sat there while the united states credit rating was dropped a notch because of their inaction and incompetence and you think they're going to finally get on the horse and ride it. >> now? >> i got to believe in something, mike. i don't want to be plunged into the pit of despair with you,

where i have a wasp in my head. >> in july. >> in july. it's the summer, man. let's hope for something. >> next july they might deal with it. >> geez. >> what i find fascinating, next july. there's a feeling okay, we're getting toward the fiscal cliff, maybe we'll have a bit of bungee jumping to get off the cliff, come back again. try and play around a bit. there's a feeling you can keep kicking the can down the road. the problem is, that just adds to the mood of uncertainty and the reason why business aren't spending. another piece in the "financial times" this morning suggesting that last year he says that one group of economists estimates policy uncertainty could have contributed to a 1.4% reduction in gdp, that's businesses sitting there and freezing as they look at this kind of bungee jumping. >> how about people's lives hanging in the balance. futures hanging in the balance, everything. >> if you're going to be a pessimist like mike on this i'll be the pessimist. the way the campaign is being conducted neither one will have a mandate to deal with these problems because all we're dealing with is all of this crap

and on november 7th, someone's going to be president, you know, maybe barack obama will still be president, maybe mitt romney will be president elect and these issues are huge and have massive consequences for the country over the next 20 years and if neither has a mandate, there's no chance we're going to get a real solution. >> that's the 1.4% -- >> i'm with you, down to the pit of despair with mike now. >> got a wasp in my ear. >> thank you very much. >> being in my bonnet. >> gillian tett, stay with us if you can. standing by in the green room former governor of new mexico, bill richardson and former lieutenant governor of new york dix ravitch here to discuss a new study state economies may be in serious trouble even if the national economy gets back on track. first bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> mika, i love to talk about something except drought and heat but that's all we have going on out there. sooner or later the hurricane season will get going. it's about the hot temperatures. we have heat advisories in 19

different states today, excessive heat warnings for kansas city and washington, d.c., philadelphia area. today's high temperatures just like yesterday, right around 100 in the mid-atlantic. 103 in st. louis, 101 in kansas city. anyone wondering where the cool air is? check out the west coast. high of only 66 in san francisco today. it's 73 in seattle. by far the worst spot for the heat wave this summer has been around st. louis and that continues right through the upcoming weekend with temperatures near 100 degrees. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. [ donovan ] i hit a wall. and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going.

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at 22 past the hour, welcome back to "morning joe." here with us now, former democratic governor of new mexico bill richardson, former democratic lieutenant governor

of new york, dick ravitch, co-chaired a new report from the state budget crisis task force that a fiscal crisis on the state level could last long after the economy rebounds. lot of questions for you both. thanks for being on the show. mr. ravitch, first of all, i guess explain how this computes. a lot of states have governors that are being braver than those in washington. does that make sense? >> i think every governor in one way or another is trying to address the fact that their obligations are outdistancing their resources. >> they have to come up with budgets, make tough decisions and many of them are. where do we stand in terms of state budgets and how they will fare as we plow through this tough economy? >> as i said, you have certain expenditures that are rising faster than revenues like medicaid, like retirement obligations. they're hard to curb. they are hard politically for some people. they're hard financially.

and they're hard legally. people often forget the fundamental fact that our constitution, states are responsible for education, for public safety, public health, the public infrastructure. >> i don't think people forget that but they think it will be there. they just think it will be there, mike barnicle. >> you've got the study and you were in office, lieutenant governor. you were governor for long time in new mexico. what do you do when you're in office and looking at, you know, the pension system in your states, firefighters, school teachers and everything, pensions, that were agreed to 11 1520 years ago -- >> completely out of date. >> these are legally binding documents. >> first, i think what the lieutenant governor has done, ta is a great report. harold and i served in the congress and one of the things that is so apparent is there's no coordination between state government and the congress. in fact, every year the

governors get together and they denounce the congress, the congress denounces the states for wanting bailouts, et cetera, but i think first there has to be a substantially more coordination, the rainy day funds in the states have to be better administered, more transparency in state government finances, but you know, one of the things that lieutenant governors are telling me that makes sense, is there should be a fiscal impact by the congressional budget office like when the congress takes action on health care, on rising health care costs, under funded pensions, on infrastructure, what is the impact on the states? i mean we don't talk to each other. we need to do that. >> harold? >> follow up. >> ice just going -- off of that, you're governor of a state, is there any possibility that you can go to a teachers union, a police union, firefighters union and say, look, you can't retire at 52 and 55 anymore.

we've got to figure out a way to broker this deal, do something here. >> first of all, a lot of states, they're modifying pension systems for new employees and as private industry does towards contributions, but that in the short term isn't going to have much budget impact. there are -- it's going to be a lot of litigation about whether or not constitutionally you can modify existing pension benefits. at the same time, you can't forget the fundamental fact that a promise to give public employee a benefit, is not only indistinguishable from a promise to pay somebody who lent you money and what's happened is, that the marketplace, the municipal marketplace, has made it easy for governors and mayors to get access through borrowing, through selling assets, and they've balanced budgets in many jurisdictions in a way that

isn't sustainable. you don't have an unlimited amount of assets to sell or unlimited amount of credit. so it's a very, very complicated issue and it's growing worse and it's going to effect the level of social services. it's going to affect education. >> on that point, governor, and governor richardson, some states including florida, namely, and governor scott complain that the medicaid costs, governor perry of texas, saying they want to opt out of the medicaid provisions provided for in the health care bill and the supreme court decided upon, you touch on medicaid prominently in the report, are the medicaid provisions or do the medicaid provision this is this health care law, will they cost states more money and did you find that in your reporter, governor ravitch? if so, what is the answer to that, governors democrats and republicans suggesting there's a problem. >> under the health care bill which i think is a good bill for

states, the health care costs on medicaid, up front, the federal government covers it the states have to pick up the slack, and it's going to be hard for that to happen. what's irresponsible is for some governors to say until the election is over and we repeal the obama care, that we're not going to opt in to some of these medicaid provisions. that's going to hurt a lot of people. in my state, a lot of kids, lot of disabled people, seniors are under medicaid. so that doesn't make sense. so, there's political judgments that need to be made, but economic ones. i think the best recommendation that is made is the coordination, there has to be some structure that forces states and the federal government now after this important report, to coordinate and work closer together. >> you know, it's important to point out that aca, obama health care itself, doesn't really create any additional burden on

states. >> it does not? >> it does not. and the real problem with medicaid, health care costs are rising faster than the rate of inflation in this country and we've done nothing whatsoever to curb, to tamp down -- >> gillian tett has a question for you. jump in. >> i was going to say, i mean, this is a terrific report and i think governor and chairman volcker have done a fantastic job, if you want to be optimistic here's one thing to think about, one of the strengths of the federal system is that it does create the possibility for experimentation in different states and municipalities and we've seen the last couple years we're not going to get clear-cut solutions top down from washington, maybe we can start to see some creative experimentation at the local level, which could actually set the stage for bigger changes across the federal system as well. and already, in places like rhode island and elsewhere, we are seeing the beginnings of a

serious attempt to try to grapple with these issues and there are very small steps at the moment, given the magnitude of the problems, but let's hope over next year partly as a result of this report we see that kind of experimentation increase and perhaps act as a model for what the federal government could be doing going forward as well in terms of grappling with these big challenges. >> governor? >> well, i think that's very, very important what she said. one of the things that is hopeful here, is that in states, republicans and democrats have to get along. we have to produce balanced budgets. it's under our constitution, most states. and so you have to work together. so we don't have the polarization in states -- there is some obviously -- that the federal government has. and so what needs to happen, i believe, is simpson-bowles recommendations implemented and a real connection with the states to make it happen so that

we get out of these state crises that are just going to explode as this important report comes out with. >> former governor bill richardson, thank you. that's all we have time for. thank you so much. lieutenant governor dick ravitch, thank you as well. in a few minutes from the super bowl champion new york giants, wide receiver victor cruz joins us. keep it here. much more ahead on "morning joe." thank you. [ cellphone rings ] the wife. hey, babe. got the jetta. i wiped the floor with the guy! not really. i would've been fine with 0% for 36 months, but i demanded 60. no...i didn't do that. it was like taking candy from a baby. you're a grown man. alright, see you at home. [ male announcer ] the volkswagen autobahn for all event. we good?

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breaking news out of syria. senior commander with the free syrian army has claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing this morning that killed the nation's defense minister and other senior officials in damascus. the attack marks the fourth straight day of conflict between government forces and the rebels in the nation's capital. later today, the u.n. security council is scheduled to vote on a new resolution to pressure the assad regime toward a plan for peace. and turning to other politics, here in the states, former vice president dick cheney may be offering strategic advice to house republicans. former president george w. bush is making it perfectly clear he has no interest in joining the

public discourse. in a recent interview with the hoover institution, bush talked about his role as a former president and why he is staying out of the public eye. >> i think it's bad for the presidency to have former presidents bloviating, opining or telling people how it ought to be done. eight years was awesome and i was famous and i was powerful and -- but i have -- i have no desire for fame and power anymore. i -- i don't want to undermine our president whoever is president, and a former president can do that. i think it's bad for the presidency itself. either you're in or out of politics and i've chosen to be out. you can't be halfway. given the environment with the blogs and this that and the other. i told -- pretty unattractive metaphor, i crawled out of the swamp. i'm not crawling back in.

and, you know, i'm interested in politics. i'm a supporter of mitt romney. i hope he does well. but, you know, he can do well without me. >> the former president says he spends most of his time working with the bush institute which released its first book yesterday featuring essays from experts on how to jump start the economy. mr. bush wrote the forward to that. would anybody like to talk about this? >> he looks great. >> looks fantastic. >> wish him the best. >> he's a free man. >> he does look like someone who's really comfortable in his own skin. >> he is. >> knows who he is and not scared of showing that. whatever you think, you have to give him credit for that. >> before we go to break, your take, gillian, on the new ceo of yahoo!. >> wow. that would have been a great story even if we hadn't found out she was pregnant and certainly there's going to be a lot of people watching this one closely to see not just how she

pulls this off in terms of having a baby, but also what she does with yahoo!. let no one forget this is a company that's had five leaders in about four years. not an easy challenge. so i say kudos to her for taking on the job and kudos for the company board for giving it to her and let's hope she can do this. >> there's so many great messages about hiring a woman to a top spot like that one in the tech world which is sort of a last -- one of the last frontiers. >> one thing to think about, i've spoke to marissa mayer about her career, fascinating career and the point she made back then was that even at the state of her career when she was a young, attractive blonde female working in the geeky i.t. world, there frankly weren't many other women around like her at all. she really did stick out. she spent her entire career sticking out and being unusual. so in some ways what's happening now is just part of that yet again. and yet it's going to be a

challenge because yahoo! is not an easy company to turn around. >> no. it's unfortunate that as talented and skilled she may be the company may be a lost cause. >> i still love the concept of her moving in life the way she is because so many women are grappling do i do this or that. >> interesting thing, though, is early choices she made as a young woman to go into the world of i.t. and computer programming, that may have been almost as brave as what she's doing today. many young women today who are students are taking decisions to go into field where there are not many other people like them and don't get the credit because no one sees that. being that young can paint dividends later. >> thank you so much. great to see you once again. >> thank you. >> still ahead "glee" star jane lynch joins us on set and next the new york goinz victor cruz on his memoir and the season ahead. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe."

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everything up to now has just been prelude. we've been waiting for this moment in the show. 7:42, joining us now, super bowl champion of the new york giants victor cruz, also the author of the book "out of the blue" and joining the book's co-author peter slayer. >> he does the salsa dance. >> no dancing today. we have to save him for the season. we giants fans have to keep him rested. >> only special occasions. >> read this book and people think you happened overnight last season but it's been a journey for you. >> yeah. it's definitely been a journey. >> talk about what you've been through to get to this point. >> there's been a lot of things, man. the ride wasn't always easy. i had to battle some adversity. i had to go to a prep school

early on after high school to continue getting my grades together. when i went to college it wasn't easy. took it for granted a little bit the first couple years. got sent home twice. got back up there. chose a major and got my degree and then i ended up having a beautiful opportunity with the new york giants, they took me on, on a tryout basis, and that first game against the jets really took off for me and i ended up making the football team and i guess the rest is kind of history. >> it's hard to believe that game you're talking about, was a preseason game, less than two years ago still. now you're like this international super star. nobody knew who you were. preseason monday night game. catch three touchdowns including one with one hand. i remember thinking as a giants fan who is that guy. even that year 2010 didn't play much. came down to last season actually. >> "financial times" irs year i ended up pulling a muscle in my ham string and got put on injured reserve. the next year just as nerve-racking because i had to

prove i could do those same things for another year. ended up getting my first start around week three and two touchdowns against the philadelphia eagles and then i just kept getting better as the season progressed. it's just a blessing. >> what was it about victor's story that grabbed you and why has he grabbed so many people around the country? >> yeah. i think at first when i first started looking into this, there was the salsa, super bowl and then we dug a little deeper and met and there's a lot of tragedy in his life. he's overcome so much from a personal level. it kept on getting up. he took the s.a.t.s five times before he got the score he needed. i looked at his mother, single mother, who really was the influence in his life and thought this was such a powerful story and the value around it. by the end it was a football book yes, but more about victor cruz and fascinated by his story. >> talk about that little more. we'll save victor the embarrassment of talking about himself. for all the little boys and girls out there getting ready to go to summer camp or whatever at this hour of the morning, the

persistence factor, the grades, going home from umass amherst and probably feeling ashamed or whatever. the persistence factor. >> i mean, victor is 25 right now and he was 20, he was working in the garden state plaza mall as a salesman for clothes. this is not a guy groomed to be a football player since the cradle. it's an amazing story. and every step of the way there's been a setback and continues. even last year during the lockout, victor wasn't a sure thing to make the team but he had to come again and try out. after six guys get injured starts against the eagles, first play scores a 65-yard touchdown and dances in the end zone. >> is this your baby? >> that is my baby. >> i love this picture. >> that's great shot. just reading a chapter about when your daughter came into the world. look at this beautiful picture. so, reading about you, you went to the university of massachusetts. >> i did. >> and you and vi something in common. s.a.t. struggles, struggles with the s.a.t. >> yeah. >> you took it how many times?

>> about six times. standardized test is my thing at the awful, being trapped in that room for four hours. >> i agree. >> bad for business. >> it is bad for business. >> it was bad for business. >> business is pretty good now, though, we should point out. >> so bad for business. >> but i understood i had to pass this test and get the score that i needed to get to my next dream and my next -- reach my next goal. i went into prep school, went to bridgeton, maine, to go to prep school. >> must have felt right at home. >> oh, my god. it was the worst. >> paterson to bridgeton. >> it was the worse. >> they don't make flights like that. >> exactly. >> only thing we had near us was a post office. i got to hone in and focus on that test up there and i got it done. i ended up enrolling in umass the next year. >> fascinating. >> peter mentioned the garden state plaza, grew up in jersey. there's a great story about you meeting michael strahan. >> yeah. >> he came in to buy something at the store. tell that story. >> i worked at a store called

image at the time and there was a store that sold urban clothes, jeans, t-shirts and stuff like that. we used to get a couple artists, celebrities to come in every now and again. i'm fold inning t-shirts and michael strahan walks in. i have to meet this dude. >> for our news audience, huge new york giants defensive star. >> exactly. >> my manager who had a relationship with him because he'd come in and shop all the time, he was helping him out, i have to sbroer introduce you to this kid, kind of in and out of school right now, good player, good kid and his name is victor cruz. victor meet mike. what's up. it's an honor to meet you. he was like no matter what happens, stay focused and, you know, get back into umass and continue on to great career. now i got his phone number, cane text him whenever i want. it's a crazy feeling. >> you know, you can probably bench press 300, 400 pounds or whatever, but talk about the strength up here. you flunk out. >> yeah.

>> umass. what strength up here did you have that had you go back? >> it was -- it took a ton of strength. more importantly my mom and my support system that told me, you know, not to quit, to keep focused, understand what you have to do. i took community college courses. i knew, i took those specific instances and knew and set short-term goals for myself every time i got kicked out to get back into school. i knew i had to remain persistent and stick with the path because at the very least i needed to get a college degree. just for my mother's sake to put a smile on her face so she could hang it in her living room and say this is my son's degree. >> graduated with a 3.2 gpa from umass. not only did he get back, turned it around and one of the best parts of the book, greatest accomplishment in college, i wrote a 35-page paper my senior year. i saw the paper. it's awesome. >> have you stopped? five years ago at garden state plaza folding t-shirts. couple months ago in the end zone doing the salsa with 150

million people watching. have you stopped now that the season is over, what just happened over the last year? >> i do it every morning, i wake up, i'm about to go to "morning joe" and talk to you guys. a just a couple of years ago i was folding t-shirts, man. it's an amazing feeling. i just want to keep it going and not let the dream die. >> what do you do to follow -- not just you, but the team coming off the super bowl? is the team better now than it was a couple of months ago even? >> i think so. some of our core pieces are still there. we lost brandon jacobs and mario manningham. but the core of our defense is still there and the core of our offense is still there, our entire offensive line back except for mckenzie. we have younger guys that we feel like can really step in and make some changes. we just want to be prepared and focused and understand that everyone has to have their best game against us and we have to prepare ourselves against that and keep it week by week.

>> it was a hell of a fun year last year. thank you so much. >> no problem. >> thank you for your story. it will be inspiring to a lot of people. >> nice to meet you. >> thank you. the book again "out of the blue," victor cruz. thanks, guys. coming to the defense of the boss, bruce spring teen, after officials in london cut springsteen's mike during a concert. dogs are the best of the best of the best.

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♪ thunder road >> you heard this story earlier in the week. bruce springsteen's playing a show, hyde park in london. he brings sir paul mccartney on the stage to play and officials in london cut their mike. >> huh? >> pull the plug on the concert because they had passed curfew in the neighborhood. >> in the middle of -- >> twist and shout. >> jersey boy through and through and you don't mess with the boss. >> you don't mess with jon stewart. >> nobody puts brucy in the corner. springsteen gets to sing as long as he wants and as loud as he

wants and there's nothing that you or anybody else can -- can do -- can do about it. >> that's it, be quiet, jon! be quiet. it's 11:08. keep it down. >> what are you doing? >> it's late, jon. britain has got the olympics coming up. cut it off. cut his mike. that's better. >> this is america, jack. no, no, no, no, no. we don't let british people tell us how loud we can be. >> you keep your voice down. ♪ oh, come take my hand ♪ oh, thunder road if the queen ever comes to new jersey, buddy. >> the queen is never coming to new jersey, jon. >> easy. >> funny. >> easy on jersey. >> don't cut off the boss. >> that was funny. >> and mccartney, even worse.

>> horrible. barney frank will be with us tomorrow. and conservatives turn iing up e heat on mitt romney to release those tax returns no matter what's in them. the medicare debate continues in washington...

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somewhere in your life. somebody helped to create this unbelievable american system that we have that allowed you to thrive. somebody invested in roads and bridges. if you got a business, you didn't build that. somebody else made that happen. government research created the internet so that all the companies could make money off the internet. the point is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative but also because we do things together. >> to say that steve jobs didn't build apple, that henry ford didn't build ford motor, that papa john didn't build papa john pizza, that ray crock didn't build mcdonald's, that bill gates didn't build microsoft, to say something like that is not

just foolishness, it's insulting to every entrepreneur, every innovator in america and it's wrong. good morning, it's 8:00 on the east coast. it's 5:00 on the west coast. time to wake up, everybody. take a look at new york city. we have mike barnicle, harold ford jr. mitt romney was looking to use those remarks from president obama. you heard them as we bumped in. to reiterate the campaign narratives, suggesting that the president has an anti-business b b bias. >> in the past people of both parties understood that encouraging achievement, encouraging success, encouraging people to lift themselves as high as they can, celebrating success instead of attacking it and denegrading it makes america strong. that's the right course for this

country. >> the obama campaign responded to romney's criticism, defending the president's comments on businesses, writing in part, trr critical actions we must take to support businesses and encourage new ones. that means we need the best infrastructure, a good education system and affordable, domestic sources of clean energy. those are investments we make not as individuals, but as americans and our nation benefits from them. i -- i mean, john halman, i feel a little tired by this if i defend the president's comments, i know what you all will say i know what joe will say. but come on, we all know what he was saying, don't we ? do they have to bicker through all of this? and are they trying to just get through mitt romney's tax returns, which is a bigger mystery? >> yes, yes, no, and yes. at one point, the president said you didn't build that business. in my mind it was the classic

gaffe, in the literal sense of -- not the classic gaffe but if you read that sentence? isolation, it doesn't sound good and it provides fodder for people on the right. if you read the whole thing in context, it's clear. this should be the standard for all candidates. we should try to understand what they're trying to say, not try to catch them on statements that they make. i think this should be true for mitt romney and president obama. he was trying to say things like -- you hear romney. nobody gets there on their own. >> we need to work together. >> correct. >> and washington needs to work together. you could take the metaphor on and on and on. >> and you have mitt romney saying he's saying steve jobs didn't build apple. >> he didn't say that. >> he didn't say that. if steve jobs were alive today, he would sit here at this table and he would say without the government, there would never have been darpa and if there wasn't darpa, there wouldn't have been an internet.

and if there wasn't an internet, there wouldn't be a worldwide web and if there wasn't a worldwide web there wouldn't have been itunes. i think that's the point that the president is trying to make. i don't think it's fair to try -- place his comments in the proper context and get what he was trying to say. >> harold, did the president step in it in some way? >> i think john said it well. both sides are guilty of this. how he tried to fire people. if you read it in context, you get a better sense of the opportunity -- >> thinking pragmatically -- maybe my viewpoint is so skewed that i don't see t romney was making a signature speech, big banner in the background and going on and on and on about it. am i missing something politically in terms of strategy? >> regrettably, this is a huge dimension of current american politics where the gotcha moment

where the one statement that, taken out of context from 50 other sentences or 100 other sentences in that statement may come across as appearing callus, insensitive. and for that matter, not caring or considerate about the economic concerns of a certain class of people in the country. i can't wait for the conversation to be elevated. they're getting there. they're getting a little closer. at least they're talking about the future of the country and what we have to do in order to make it better. this little episode here, i blame the press a little bit for focusing too much on it as well. but both campaigns are guilty of this petty, small-minded politics. >> i agree with john, too, that it's encumbent upon all of us. >> it is. >> corporations are people comment, we all know what he was talking about when mitt romney said that. >> that's true. >> they employ people, give health care to people. i hope that the press jumps as hard on mitt romney. >> call them both out. >> president obama as it has on

mitt romney. >> we are a month away from the conventions and i am already sick of this. >> tired, yeah. >> i'm already sick of it. i mean, anyone with the common sense knows what the president was talking about yesterday. no one dot does it alone in this country. you know, that's part of the reason why the country is so great. you need a road to get to the factory. you need public transportation to go to work. >> you need a teacher. >> you need a police officer directing traffic. you need a firefighter to come if there's -- no one does it alone. >> the president connected it really quickly with just infrastructure investment, and maybe he did in the entire speech. >> that's part of the problem. >> we didn't see that. we didn't see that part. >> he didn't have to say anything more, you know. unless you're engaged in cheap shots, he didn't have to say anything more. because if you sit there, if you're in des moines, iowa, listening to him, in stockton, california, you knew what the president meant. we're now in an age where we tweet the news.

oh, obama, gaffe. #screwup. we are in a ridiculous anal. >> i agree with that. >> we are going to going to learn nothing from these guys if we keep doing this. where are you going? this is a job application. you want this job for four more years, tell us where we're going, what we're going to do. >> and we're not hearing that. >> nothing. >> mitt romney mentions steve jobs and his highly inaccurate assessment of what the president had said and other business leaders. >> papa john. >> papa john. >> he mentioned people who had very large personal fortunes, as does he. but that's about all we know. for all the romney campaign's efforts to refocus the conversation, he keeps bringing it back to this, the chorus calling for him to release more of his tax returns is growing,

much of it from within his own party. former presidential candidate rick perry chimed in on romney's tax situation. >> i'm a big believer that no matter who you are or what office you're running for, you should be as transparent as you can be with your tax returns and other aspects of your life so that people have the appropriate ability to judge your background and what have you. >> and the national review online put out an editorial titled release the returns, saying in part romney is a politician running for the highest office in the land and his current posture is probably unsustainable. romney pushed back against those calls during an interview with our nbc affiliate in pittsburgh. >> i think people in my party just say, look, this is a nonissue. just release the returns and they'll all go away. my experience is that the democratic party these days has approached taxes in a very

different way than they have in the past. opposition people look for anything they can find to distort, twist and try to make negative and i want to make this a campaign about the economy and creating jobs and they want to make this a campaign about attacking people and diverting attention from our job picture in this country. >> this isn't going to go away. the problem is that this is a mystery and the problem is that the more he doesn't release the tax returns the more he looks like the evil 1%, the people who make a lot of money and don't want to share the loopholes and the other tax ways they've been able to get around the system. and they don't want to share about it because they don't want to fix it because they want to keep their money. and that's what it looks like. and it makes people angry. and he needs to get it behind him. and i don't get his campaign, that they thought this would go away. seriously? what's wrong with his campaign? they put him in a stadium with two people in it. they do stupid things for this guy. they are so completely inept at propping this guy up. just get those returns out

during the primary when newt gingrich was bell owing about them. the only person who has been hypocritical about it so far among prominent republicans was newt gingrich, who screamed for the tax returns to be released and then backtracked saying, no, no, no, we will protect him. i'm for mitt romney. please, just get them out. this is pathetic and boring. >> that was an awesome newt gingrich personality. >> watch newt gingrich when he talks about mitt romney's tax returns, he's the only one who feels like doing that at this point. the rest of the prominent republican party just wants him to release them. it makes them cringe. >> why do you think he doesn't want to? >> he's an appropriate man. i would be stunned if anything was found in those tax returns that showed that there was something illegal. he just made a lot of money and he got to shelter it well. >> the question to ask him about his tax returns, and it won't be

asked in most of the forms he's doing, in the course of his business career, which has been solid, honest. >> make maid a lot of money. >> respectable, diligent, whatever. in the course of his business career with bane & company, did they ever do only two years worth of due diligence on companies they purchased? he just wants to release two years of tax returns. did they ever just do two years of due diligence in purchasing a corporation? the answer would be no. >> no. >> there's a million different ways to look at it. >> million different ways to cut that. >> you're in business. >> and, you know, you point to the number of years he gave to mccain and you point to the tax returns. vice presidential candidates are currently betting, i'm sure, giving more than two years of tax returns to mitt romney to examine them. mika, your point is right in the sense that -- people have said this a million times.

they should have sat down in the summer of 2011 when no one was paying attention and brought in a bunch of reporters in a room and gone through ten years of tax returns and had a bad story a year ago and move on. move forward. i don't know. i think george will has said he is a rational guy, how much water he's taking on now, how much damage he is receiving because of this versus the damage he would get by the release of the tax returns. he may be making a logical decisi decision. swiss bank accounts, bermuda. those are toxic in an important pastor electorate. people hear those things and it is bad for mitt romney. if there's a lot more of that, is there political damage there? possibly. are there years he paid no taxes? possibly. is there a lot of -- a number

that would surprise people, a lot more giving to the mormon church than we know about? is he uncomfortable talking about mormonism? yes. he is making a judgment and he's clearly decided that he's going to try to tough this out because he thinks it will be worse if he release the them. >> harold? >> i've heard his campaign officials point to -- cynically point to the effect that this has not affected their campaign. if you begin to see a drop and we'll see some new numbers here come very soon, it may enkornl him to do it. on another note, it says a lot about -- to me, the kind of president this guy might be to avoid laying out facts, to avoid disclosing until it may hurt him politically or personally. you think about some of the question that is political figures -- certainly the political parties nationally, what presidents have had to confront the last eight to 12

years. is an american worried about civil liberties, about our involvement around the globe, about government's involvement in the public sector, investments? if mitt romney, as governor, as a candidate is unwilling to share his own personal background, his own tax returns of the last several years because he's afraid that the democrats may point out something that's there. i think the american people will pay more attention to this, even if there's nothing there. >> the question, harold, how long can he ride this out? >> if ohio, iowa numbers start to drop, people can point to that. it may cause him to do it. i take their campaign on what they've been saying on our shows on this network and other networks. not that i watch them but i read the quotes from other networks, until their poll numbers are affected.

it makes me think what kind of president would this guy be if his administration is willing to withhold data, hide information? >> i'm going to go back to his campaign. i feel bad for him. who wouldn't -- why wouldn't you -- maybe you could educate me. run for office? >> i had to release all of my tax return. >> exactly. >> i released all of my work from the time i started work to when i ran for senate. >> let say everything john hieleman list there had as sore spots in his tax returns are true. could he have gotten this behind him if he had released them a while ago? would this be an issue now? >> absolutely not. and if it were a discussion, it would be so mild in the campaign. >> campaigns come back to the candidate. you know, we don't know what advice he has gotten from people inside. many people may have been urging him to do this earlier. if the candidate does not want to follow that advice, if the

candidate doesn't want to do it, no one can force him to do it. he may be getting bad advice or good advice. ultimately, the question is what does he want to do? he's personally uncomfortable talking about money. it's been shown for a long time, both on bane and the taxes, he does not like talking about weth wealth. i think it's with the candidate is where the responsibility lies. still ahead, one of the stars of the hit show "glee," jane lynch will join us on the show and has advice for college-bound students. plus you can tell if someone is lying or telling the truth. former cia officer tells us how counterterrorism techniques can be applied to everyday life. the man who never tells the truth, ever. seriously, has he ever gotten it right? bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? >> you throw darts and occasionally you get it right, mika. anyone can give this forecast. hot, dry.

pretty much the bottom line across the country. 19 different states, portions of them under heat advisories. hot conditions up i-95 and right across interstate 70 from kansas city all the way into indianapolis. how hot will it get today? triple digits from wichita, kansas city, st. louis, d.c. to richmond and those areas along that front from columbus, pittsburgh, philadelphia. watch out this afternoon. strong thunderstorms will come. some of those could contain damaging winds that will knock power out. wondering where the cool air is. it's out west. san francisco, 66 today. seattle, about 78 degrees. for areas in the northeast like new york city, it's a hot and humid day to start. later this afternoon, thunderstorms will cool us off at the expense of some damaging wind and hail. you're watching "morning joe," brew bid starbucks. cold feels nice on sore muscles, huh?

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i'm officer jimmy. this is the truth fairy. the truth fairy is going to hook you up to a machine right now. do you know what a lie detector is? >> yeah. >> a lie detector is a machine that can tell if you're lying or telling the truth. you must always tell the truth. okay? puppies are very selfish. >> yeah. >> do you hate puppies? >> no. >> do you hate puppies? >> yes. >> do you ever pick your nose? >> no. uh, yes, i did. >> sometimes, right? >> yeah. >> do you ever eat it?

>> no. uh, yes, i did. >> all right. has any girl ever tried to kiss you at school? >> no. >> little bit? >> no. >>! >> wow, you're a tough nut to crack. >> coconuts crack. i don't crack. >> oh, my gosh, that is so cute. joining us now -- interesting segue. veteran of the cia, bill houston, is out with a new book "spy the lie," former cia officers teach you how to detect deception. fascinating. i'm looking at some of the findings in your book. first of all, people lie ten times a day? ten times? >> westerners lie, on average, ten time as a day. >> lies. bold-faced lies? >> they include what we like to call smart wives where the wife says how do you like my new hairdo? >> like, you look so handsome today. >> that works.

>> okay. what have you learned about men and women in terms of how they lie? >> who lies more, men or women? the research is not as definitive as you would like to see but most people in the business think the men have a bit of an edge in the volume of lying. men seem to tend to lie more, perhaps, to inflate or make themselves look good or embellish. a lot of the lies that we hear on just a daily basis from women often tend to spare people's feelings and avoid hurting someone's feelings. >> we need to lie less. >> in terms of the techniques that you use, that you employ that are in the book in detecting lies, what are some of them? and how important is like eye contact? >> for a lot of years, we thought eye contact was very important. and what we've learned through both research and through anecdotal information it's not

as important as we thought. different cultures have different gaze duration and, you know, different levels of eye contact. we search has also supported that. in fact, there's some research that suggests that people who are lying actually have better eye contact than people who are telling the truth. >> interesting. before we get into more details, maybe you could tell us about why cia officers are the perfect people to, obviously, be able to detect deception perhaps better than anybody else. >> sure. if we're going to collect reliable intelligence, it really begins at the point when the officer is sitting in front of an asset or from a potential intelligence source. it starts there. because often if they walk away, having been snookered, so to speak, that's where the problems begin. because people then begin to build the intelligence around, in essence, a falsehood.

so, sometimes it's hard to corroborate statements that they make. but if that officer can recognize right off the bat that someone is not telling the truth, that's our best chance for enhancing the reliability of the intelligence we get. >> i want to get to your list of telltale signs. >> yeah. >> good. >> what's it like for you, for a guy who studies behavior to walk into a room like this? are you always watching for ticks and the way people behave? >> we try not to do this. it's a little awkward around the office sometimes because i work with people who do this. we try not to do it but sometimes it has a tendency to jump out at you. it's built around a stimulus response model. meaning your question is the stimulus and the best indicators of deception are found in the answer or in the response that's given. so when you hear a response, it just sometimes jumps out at you that this isn't what it should be. >> we've got verbal and nonverbal telltale signs.

start with the verbal. refusing to answer a question directly. >> sure. >> the second one jumped out at me. invoking religion. >> yeah. >> why do you say that? >> you ask someone a question and the facts are not their ally, mentally they go through a process that says what am i going to say? what am i going to do? as a result of that, instinctively, we go into the convince mode rather than the convey mode. we certainly see this in politics. we watch your show and see that a lot on your show. go into the convince mode. one of the things that's very powerful sometimes in societies where religion is important is people will invoke religion. i swear to god. >> swear on the bible. >> swear on the bible. >> swear on my mother's name. never believe it. >> or, jesus, why did you ask me that? >> that's a good one. >> there's that. >> going into attack mode is another one. showing inappropriate level of concern. >> so many politicians that we can -- >> you see that in politics a lot. when you ask someone a tough

question and it's an important question and you want to know the answer to t they don't have any good response for you. what they try to do is impeach the credibility of the question, lower its level of importance so they don't look as bad. >> when somebody says to governor romney, do you have anything to hide in your tax returns and he says, i don't think barack obama understands america, that is a telltale sign. >> quite possibly, yes. >> are you calling mitt romney a liar? >> no. it's a tell of something. >> hiding the mouth or eyes. clearing the throat and swallowing. using grooming gestures. what does that one mean? >> grooming gestures are big. >> like this? >> psychologically -- yes, absolutely. psychologically, we feel uncomfortable often telling a lie and we want to make sure it's believed. without even looking at it, instinctively, we begin to groom ourselves or groom the surroundings just to make a more presentable appearance. >> what do you mean? like during your answer?

>> like this. >> for example, you ask me a question and without even thinking about it, instinctively, i might fix my tie, adjust my suit or maybe my cuff's not in the right spot. >> couldn't they just be nervous, though? somebody sits down. maybe they're not on tv a lot and fidget a little bit and play with their jacket. what's the difference between being nervous and lying? how do you detect that? >> the first distinction we're going to make, willy, we're going to ignore any random nervousness. if i sit down and i'm fidgeting, we're only guessing at why i would be nervous. if the question seems to generate a spike in your anxiety, then that becomes more important. then the other safety net that we have there is we don't rely on a single deceptive indicator. we advocate looking for clusters of behavior in response to a question. that's your best chance for spying the lie. >> okay. pause pauses or delays is another one.

you say there's a textbookcase of deception, one you point out in the book which involves politics. you point to anthony wweiner. >> congressman, if you could just answer point blank. you say you were hacked, which is potentially a crime. why haven't you asked the capital police or any law enforcement to investigate? >> look, this was a prank that i've now been talking about for a couple of days. i'm not going to allow it to decide what i talk about for the next week or next two weeks. >> you're not answering the questions. can you just say why you haven't asked law enforcement to investigate what you are alleging is a crime? >> you know, dana, if i was giving a speech to 45,000 people and someone in the back of the room threw a pie or yelled out an insult, would i spend the next two hours responding to that? no. >> what do you see there, phil? >> first of all, he doesn't answer the question. and that's a very significant deceptive verbal indicator.

it likely indicates that he doesn't have any facts that are his ally. immediately he goes into sort of the convince mode. he's trying to convince her as to why he doesn't need to answer this question. he also goes into a little bit of the attack mode where he's blaming someone else, attacking an unidentified entity saying this is a prank or hoax. and then also nonverbal he did something very interesting. he started going to his face. that's likely evidence of the fight or flight response kicking in where the autonomic nervous system is reacting to this threat posed by the question. >> wow! that's incredible. hiding the mouth or the eyes. would you also put into that category people who cover their like face with their hair and stuff like that? >> possibly. >> sending a message of not being honest? >> possibly. although we're kind of guessing at that. it's more significant is if you

ask someone a question and in responding to your question, they close their eyes as they're talking to you. that would be an excellent example of covering their eyes. >> wow! it's really -- this is the most fascinating book. it's "spy the lie." you can get an exert on our blog. thank you so much, phil houston. >> thanks, phil. up next, jane lynch joins us with her important message for students planning to go to college. keep it right here on "morning joe." an accident doesn't have to slow you down. with better car replacement available only with liberty mutual auto insurance,

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now this is not suggesting that you should say yes to every opportunity presented to you. now i know what you're thinking, jane. what about doing porno, to which i say i am as surprised as you, i was never offered the opportunity. but would i have said yes to that? to this, i say, you can always trust that when you're coming from your highest self and from your heart, you'll know when to say yes and/or when to engage in the awesome power of no way. >> exactly. welcome back to "morning joe." that was emmy and golden globe

winner jane lynch, giving the 2012 commencement speech at smith college. that must have been great. >> it was. >> they must have loved you. jane joins us now as part of the don't major in debt campaign which educates students and their families about college loan s and how to pay off their debt. this is such an important issue. i have some family members who are dealing with this. obviously, student loans and the cost of going to college is a huge issue right now in this country. why did you choose this one? you could do -- i'm sure you've got people coming at you from all sides trying to get behind a certain issue. >> more student loan out there right now than credit card debt. i have nieces and nephews who either have graduated from college or are in college that are saddled with this terrific amount of debt in their early business lives and it's a horrible -- it can cripple them financially. we have launched colle collegefinancecenter.org. if you're going to college or are already saddled with this

debt you can get all the information to deal with it, what products are best for you so you go into this with your eyes wide open rather than just choosing any debt. >> they go into college at 18 years old and have no concept of what it's like to try to pay this off. >> right. >> add to the fact that unemployment among those who have just graduated -- >> brutal. >> -- right now is a brutal situation. you may not be able to pay off. you'll be saddled with a debt that you might not be able to pay. >> higher education cost has gone up. like nothing has inflated faster than the cost of education. higher debts and less employment opportunities. >> i went to a public university that my parents helped pay for. we supplemented with student loans and i was out of debt by the time i was 30 and i deferred a few times. and the interest rate was really, really low. but that is no more. >> the interest rate is something like, what? i know my niece is dealing with one that's nine -- >> 9%, that's not unusual. it was like 2% or 3% when i

was -- >> i feel like they're being robbed and, quite frankly, this country's future is being robbed because this is going to end up hurt us ultimately. >> this was at the center of the political debate a couple of weeks ago. >> right. >> thankfully, it was renewed for another year at the current rates. do you think it's getting enough attention out there at the moment in political circles? >> i don't. i think students and parents have to be wise and have their eyes open about what is out there and what you're looking at in terms of having this much debt on you as a young person. that's what college financecenter.org is a terrific ro yourself to help you clear that up for yourself. >> there are other options. >> uh-huh. >> there are state schools versus going to a private institution that would give you a loan that you might have to spend the rest of your life paying zblof yeah. >> that are just as good. what do you say to a young person who really wants to go to school and who is about to enroll in a program, financial aid that they'll have to pay back for many, many years. do you say don't go to college? >> no, no, go to college.

not to sound like a snob, but college was one of the best experiences i had in my life. it's where my curiosity was awakened and i think if a kid wants to go, they should go. very few grants these days. they're cutting back on those. the loan is the way to go. you just have to go into it with your eyes open and know what you're getting into. and there are products out there that are better than others. >> you came out of school with debt that sounds utterly acquaint by today's standards. >> it was not small. >> $55,000 for a private school. you can do the math on that. if you have children, as mika has teenage girls. i have a 5 and 3-year-old. i can't imagine what college is going to cost by the time they get there. good for you for being on this issue. >> thank you. >> should we talk about "glee"? >> can we? may we? >> you're the greatest. how many seasons now? >> going into our fourth and start in about two weeks. >> uh-huh. >> i'm really excited. the first two scripts have been written. they were sent to my house but

i'm here right now. and i didn't read them and i don't know what's happening right now. i couldn't tell you if i did. >> i was getting ready to go running and my daughter says, you look like sue from "glee." i was like, is that a bad thing? >> you can't be monochromatic. break the colors up. >> okay. >> this is a trite celebrity interview question. >> yes, please. >> i'm going to ask you anyway. when you read a script like that, you couldn't imagine what it was going to become but this did look different and special to you? >> it did. i laughed out loud and it said sue sylvester may or may not have posed for penthouse, which made me -- >> boom. you were in. >> i signed the deal. and, of course, the music. the kids singing and raising their voice in song. i didn't know it would be a huge hit but had a feeling it would find an audience and that audience would be rabid. >> with people on the street --

>> people must -- >> it's mostly 14 or 15-year-old girls and i can't tell them to buzz off. >> do you give them sue when they come up to you on the street? >> a little bit. what's rachel really like? >> wouldn't sue tell them to move on? >> yeah, yeah, buzz off. i tell them sometimes as sue sylvester and then i smile as jane lynch but as jane lynch wants them to buzz off. no, no. i enjoy the kids. >> you love the kids. >> being a role model for the kids. it's wonderful. >> you're helping the kids with this college. >> yes. >> not looking at the end of "glee" here. >> better not be. >> you're known for sue sift sylvester. christy cummings for me -- >> what are you -- oh, yes. >> that's when my eyes opened. >> you're cap vating. >> jane lynch, thank you. >> thank you so much. i got that through a frosted

flakes commercial. >> is that true? >> yes. we did a commercial, waiting for guffman, which i just loved. it was really a preposterous fantasy come true. >> the new christopher gest directed frosted flakes commercials. >> he used to direct at least a commercial a day. any time you laughed at a commercial, christopher probably directed it. >> is there a place kids can go for information? >> and parents. collegefinancecenter.org. >> i guess i won't call her sue. >> you can. >> jane lynch, thank you so much. it's great to have you back. come back soon. >> oh, thank you. i love the show. >> more "morning joe" in just a moment. [ man ] ever year, sophia and i

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welcome back to "morning joe" in a hot, steamy new york city morning. this is a two-shot you're looking at here with me and mike barnicle. >> two times the fun. >> you're like the double mint twins. >> the only people left. that's the whole thing. so, thousands of the world's -- potted plant. thousands of the world's greatest athletes descended on london for the 2012 summer olympics. but now some staffing issues are posing a big problem there. the company hired to provide security for the games only able to deliver half the expected number of guards. nbc's michelle kosinski reports. >> reporter: checking bags, guarding athletes. now being done by soldiers and police, scrambled from around the uk, because the security

company g4s, the world's large est security employer just figure figured out it cannot meet its target. it only has half that number ready. the company turned up 38 where 300 were needed. >> fiasco and shambles. >> simply inexcusable. >> a humiliating shambles, isn't it? >> it's nowhere we want to be. that's certain. >> it's a humiliating shambles for the company. yes or no? >> i cannot disagree with you. >> ceo nick buckles says he only learned july 3rd that g4s will falwell short. what happened? >> incredibly logistically challenging. >> just in time phasing saying it would have been an advantage to have everyone trained mons in

advance but that was neither practical nor cost effective. went through interviews and training then didn't hear back for months. newspapers have claimed to catch guards snoring at olympic sites or not doing jobs well. it is reassuring to many that the military and police are stepping in. >> they'll do their job. >> just looking forward to putting on a heck of a show. >> olympic organizers emphasi emphasize -- >> this has not nor will it have an impact on these games. >> you still think you ought to claim it? >> yes. >> i find that astonishing. >> reporter: a bigger question, how many g4s guard also show up at all? and how many are needed ? >> you cannot guarantee how many will turn up on the day. you can't be sure, can you? >> no. >> michelle kosinski. "way too early" will be live in london all next week leading up

to the opening ceremony on friday. next week, we are doing "way too early" there. that's exciting. >> any problems getting around london? >> my personal detail is intact. >> that so is anchored by you, right? >> it is. >> you will be in london? >> some days, it is. i will actually be there, yes. >> awesome. [ lane ] your anti-wrinkle cream is gone. but what about your wrinkles. neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair. it has the fastest retinol formula available. it's clinically proven to visibly reduce wrinkles in just one week. "why wait if you don't have to." rapid wrinkle repair. neutrogena®. recommended most by dermatologists. neutrogena®.

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after years of criticism for his poor record on boosting employment, president obama is pleased to announce today he created a job. congratulations to emilio markham from maryland on his new job, making charts illustrated president obama's downward spiraling approval ratings. president obama, we did it. >> let me tell you something, england, nobody puts brucey in a corner. springsteen gets to sing as long as he wants and as loud as he wants and there's nothing that you or anybody else can -- can do -- can do about --

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time to tell you what we learned today. >> obviously i get no sympathy for the bee in my ear, from you guys or anyone whatsoever and the two of you are beyond juvenile. >> me? >> yes. >> i'm trying to save him from himself over here. >> what did you learn? >> john, what did you learn? >> i dare you. i dare you. can't do it. >> we also learned there is surveillance security footage at a gas station in lexington,

massachusetts, of mike barnacle with a wasp in his ear, dancing around. we have video by the end of the week, you have our word. >> did you learn anything? >> no. >> you can't do it. >> better left unsaid. spicy snack mix. >> leave my nuts alone. >> take it away. march of the elephants, conservative chorus cranks up the noise as mitt romney tries to shift the attention away from his tax returns and put the heat on president obama's record in the white house. is the president getting a boost from the right? deadly violence in syria. defense minister and president assad's brother-in-law are among the casualties. will latest attacks led to more conflict or bring it closer to an end? attention to all of you folks in the political swamp. former president george w. bush said he had a good time but is

never coming back. what he thinks he can do for mitt romney. good morning from washington, d.c. it's wednesday, july 18th, 2012. this is the daily rundown. i'm luke russert, filling in for mr. chuck todd. let's get right to the first reads of the morning. mitt romney is aggressively trying to shift the spotlight off his bane background and unreleased tax returns, escalating a counter attack on the president, out with a new ad, continuing the line of attack of croneyism. >> where did all the obama stimulus money go, friends, donors, campaign supporters, special interest groups. >> romney slammed the president, suggesting that entrepreneurs owe their success partly to government investments in education and infrastructure or as the president awkwardly put it, if you got a business, you didn't build that. >> to say that steve jobs didn't build apple, that henry ford