first, a few poll -- a new poll reveals what the public wants. by a 17-point margin, americans believe romney should release more than two years of tax returns. even 53% of independents think romney should release more tax returns. a plurality of americans believe these additional returns include damaging information, 15% think the revelations would show he's unfit to be president. what does the romney camp do? they use one of their most winning surrogates, ann romney, because she's been far more likable than her husband on the campaign trail, but listen carefully to the first part of ann romney's explanation of why no more tax returns should be released. >> you know, you should really look at where mitt has led his life and where he's been financially. he's a very generous person. we give 10% of our income to our church every year. do you think that's the kind of person trying to hide things or do things? no. he is so good about it. then when he was governor of massachusetts, didn't take a salary in the four years.

>> listen, giving charitable donations, however commendable, has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a presidential candidate should release tax returns. they are two different issues. ann romney suggesting that this means mitt romney isn't hiding anything is, with all due respect, a ludicrous argument. mitt romney not taking a salary as governor is also totally irrelevant to the issue. here's the second part of ann romney's answer. >> there's so many things that will be open again for more attack, and you just want to get more material for more attack and that's just the answer. and we've given all you people need to know and understand about our financial situation and about how we live our life. >> we've given all you people need to know. what about we the people and what we need to know to form a more perfect union? again, this answer is condescending to the extreme. we the people is the predicate of our democracy. we the people need to know the

very details of mitt romney's tax returns to determine for ourselves whether or not he is hiding something. if he isn't, come forth. isn't this the same extreme viewpoints about barack obama's birthday certificate? they were extremely curious about that, but have no curiosity about this? come on, mitt romney. let's play fair. what are you hiding? then we have the candidate himself, who is trying to change the subject from his very big tax return problem and is pushing a lie about what the president said about business. >> when the president said that if you got a business, you didn't build it, come here and talk to brian and you'll learn that, in fact, he did build this business. someone else isn't responsible for what he did here. >> now there you go again, mitt romney. we must play again what the president actually said last friday. >> if you are successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.

there was a great teacher somewhere in your life. somebody helped to create this unbelievable american system that we have that allowed you to thrive. somebody invested in roads and bridges. if you got a business, you didn't build that. somebody else made that happen. >> am i missing something? isn't this the american way to acknowledge others have helped us? mitt romney, if somebody changed your diaper, you didn't do it on your own. all the president is doing is reflecting what martin luther king jr. said when he earlier, 50 years ago, suggested when you get up in the morning, the world joins you. you get coffee, that's from columbia, you got potatoes, that's from idaho. the world helps us do what we do. dr. king said there's a ground crew that's often present but not talked about when we talk about flying. yes, the pilot is there, but the ground crew is important as well. this is all the president is saying. this deconstructs the mythology

of self-made men, when indeed they've been helped on every side. the president has moved on, opening a whole new line of attack against candidate romney, one that americans better pay closer attention to. here's the president in florida today. >> he plans to turn medicare into a voucher program, so if that voucher isn't worth enough to buy the health insurance that's on the market, you're out of luck. you're on your own. one independent non-partisan study found that seniors would have to pay nearly $6,400 more for medicare than they do today. it's wrong to ask seniors to pay more for medicare just so millionaires and billionaires can pay less in taxes. >> do you people get that? this is significant, because mitt romney supports congressman paul ryan's draconian budget and americans need to know what he'd sign into law as president. according to greg sergeant of the washington post, don't actually believe romney would enact such extreme legislation,

so it's incumbent on the obama campaign to inform the american people what they are in for with a romney presidency. get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think. tonight's question, do you think mitt romney will cut medicare and give the rich another tax cut? a, for yes, b, for no. or go to our blog, ed.msnbc.com. let's bring in former dnc communications director karen finney and hogan gittly. let's begin with ann romney's comments, because i believe the romney campaign hurt themselves even more today. what do you think about that, hogan? >> well, ann is the better half. i think everybody can agree on that. a very likable woman, great surrogate for her husband, there's no doubt. look, she is right about one

thing, and that is if they keep the taxes and don't release more than two years, he's going to get hammered for not releasing more taxes. if he releases the taxes, he's going to get hammered for what's in them. this has been an issue for mitt romney since he ran for senate back in '94, and it's a calculated move by the campaign not to release these documents. for some reason, people in boston believe what's in the documents will hurt more than the barrage of attacks for not releasing the documents. they've made that political calculation, sticking to it, and they are not releasing anymore documents. >> seems it's not an effective strategy, because they keep getting hammered. even their republican allies are joining in, and ann romney, usually pretty effective, really compounded the problem, i think, don't you agree? it sounds like she's implying there really is something to hide here. >> that's part of the problem overall both in her answer and frankly, governor romney himself. every time he says, if i release them, you're going to pick

through them and find things to attack me with. clearly, you believe there are things in there that are problematic, you believe it's problematic how you can explain to the american people how you can be a quote, unquote, job creator when you created much of your wealth by keeping that money offshore in these accounts in bermuda and the cayman islands and, perhaps, various tax loop holes. the other thing on this attack on president obama, somehow mitt romney thinks he got there all by himself is somehow disingenuous, he got a lot of help, tax breaks and tax loopholes he had no problem exploiting when it came to accumulating his own wealth. >> no doubt about that. the romney campaign is still after the president about his business comments and romney went to an auto repair shop in massachusetts to make the point today, but the company in question got government help and industrial revenue bond.

so karen, the romney campaign is tripping all over this one, too, aren't they? >> absolutely. the idea is very simple. in this country, you move forward and you get ahead because somebody else helped make sure there was an opportunity there for you. nobody does it on their own. that's, you know, part of the role of government. that's part of the role of the individual and your own enthusiasm and hard work, but there are opportunities in this country. that's part of what obama is really talking about in terms of what makes this country so special, so these dog whistle politics of saying he doesn't understand what it is to be an american and he doesn't understand, sort of have this attitude of i'm going to talk about the president like this, but then i'm not accountable to tell you anything about my taxes or about my dealings or even, frankly, giving an explanation. any time you ask the romney folks to give an explanation, they say look at the plan, 59-point plan, that's on the website. >> exactly.

that hook a brother up deal they never talk about specifically. hogan, mitt romney has made president obama's point. here it is. >> i know that you recognize a lot of people help you in a business. perhaps the banks, the investors, no question your mom and dad, your school teachers, the people that provide roads, the fire, the police. a lot of people help. there are a lot of people in government who help us and allow us to have an economy that works and allow entrepreneurs and business leaders of various kinds to start businesses and create jobs. we all recognize that. that's an important thing. >> so hogan, it's good for romney to say it, but not obama, it's good when he says it because he legitimates it? romney is lying about what the president said. >> look, i think both sides jump on what these politicians say quite frequently. speaking of someone working for rick santorum who had a propensity of going too far once in awhile and going back to explain what he said on television shows.

we don't want robotic candidates, someone so poll tested and driven they give you pat answers so far. >> you're saying romney went too far? >> i'm sorry? >> are you saying romney went too far? >> no, in the summertime, no one's paying attention. you have to hammer somebody on things that are fringe elements. >> is this fringe -- is it a fringe point when he's simply saying obama is ridiculous somebody else helps you but he's caught saying the same thing. answer that question, is that fair for him to deny the contradiction in his own statement? >> no, i see what you're saying. he's making the attack and coming back and kind of -- >> saying the same thing. >> that's right, i see what you're saying. but this is the time in the race we're going to focus on the tougher issues, the medicare issue, like you mentioned in florida. obama hit on that today.

we're going to begin to focus on what the american people care about, and just to your earlier point for a second, one of the things with the tax returns, you mentioned the republicans telling mitt romney to release these returns, one of the reasons we want him to release these, quite frankly, we're pretty selfish. we don't want to come on your show and have these conversations about tax returns. we want to have a debate about president obama ruining the economy. >> i thought you had love for me. karen, you jump in and show the love. >> okay. two things. i think hogan would agree, just as a communications practitioner that the ideal thing to have done for a year, year and a half ago for the romney team to put together a pact, eight years, ten years, sit down with five or so reporters and frame this story rather than now having this liability, because part of what it's doing is you're seeing sort of the fraying of what was already a pretty tenuous amount of support from the conservative underpinnings for mitt romney.

people are not comfortable having to defend this, because they know it's a huge liability. >> all right. that will have to be the last word. karen finney, hogan giddey, thank you very much. share your thoughts on twitter @edshow and on facebook. coming up, mitt romney says he's not trying to avoid paying taxes, so why is he sending his money overseas? we'll talk about the high cost of putting his money where his mouth is next. with the "name your price" tool, you tell us what you want to pay, and we give you a range of coverages to choose from. who is she? that's flobot. she's this new robot we're trying out, mostly for, like, small stuff. wow! look at her go! she's pretty good. she's pretty good. hey, flobot, great job. oops. [ powers down ] uh-oh, flobot is broken.

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mattresses start at just $699. coming up, our expert tax detective, david k. johnston, will tell us what he thinks romney is hiding in his secret returns. later, the number of republicans condemning michele bachmann's witch hunt is nearing an even dozen. i'll ask what it took them so long to figure out. bachmann has no clue what she's talking about. share your thoughts with us on facebook and on twitter using the #edschultz.

we'll be right back.

this is the land of opportunity. we welcome people here with dreams and say to them, come build it. >> welcome back. mitt romney spoke passionately today about the importance of investing in america. keep that in mind as i ask you this next question, how much money do you have in your i.r.a. or 401(k) right now? today, the wall street journal estimated mitt romney's ira, listen to this, is worth somewhere between $20 million and $101 million ira.

it makes you wonder, why would you keep $20 million in a retirement account? one answer is tax savings. the wall street journal found many of the assets in romney's ira were places overseas, like the cayman islands. romney's people insist he's not avoiding taxes. they say the cayman island accounts are not tax havens and it's false to say so. so if he's not saving on taxes, why put $100 million in a retirement accounts? romney admits, he's, like, saving money on taxes. >> i can tell you, we follow the tax laws, and if there's an opportunity to save taxes, we, like anybody else in this country, will follow that opportunity. >> show me the money. jerry mcguire moment here. so remember this, while mitt romney praises american opportunity, he could be saving

$35 million a year by sending his money overseas. let's turn to david k. johnston, pulitzer prize winning columnist and author of the book "free lunch." welcome to the show, my friend. >> thank you, michael. >> if these investments are legal, what is mitt romney hiding? all this suspicion being generated, cloud is hanging over him, now it's beginning to rain now. >> the question isn't about the iras, when he takes the money out, he'll have to pay the 35%. the question is, why isn't he releasing his returns? obama's a cautious man. look at the way he got rid of osama bin laden, you know, he took the action, but he was very cautious about it. well, i don't think they said this without knowing that there are years with no taxes. remember, 23 years of returns from '84 up until 2007 were given to the john mccain campaign. so there's something in his tax returns he's concluded it's safer and better not to disclose them.

>> you think the obama campaign has sure knowledge of this. somebody's leaked it, somebody's scene it? >> there's an abstract, somebody testified under oath, or somebody made a mistake. years ago i wrote the story donald trump had a negative net worth because somebody gave me his personal net worth statement his bankers prepared. >> somebody better be careful around you. tell us how tax havens actually hurt america. >> i think the cayman islands is actually a threat to the national security of the united states. here's what happens. american corporations put their intellectual property, the right to, the logos outside the building, you know, the sign that says walmart or pfizer, and they put them overseas. >> right. >> then they charge -- they pay a royalty to this overses entity, and it appears as well more than $2 trillion of untaxed

profits now sitting offshore as a result. well, if tax to 35%, that would bring in $700 billion. how much is that? all the income taxes you and i and everybody else in america will pay this year up until around halloween. >> wow. david, why is it then, fat cats we can understand, people with deep pockets, we get it. why do these politicians claim to love america so much and talking about economic patriotism have the information you have and understand the $750 billion there, isn't that un-american much more than claiming what obama is doing is un-american because he wants to talk about businesses didn't start by themselves? >> yes. and this week in reuters, i broke the story, $5.1 trillion in cash, that's the entire output of the economy from new year's day to may day and a lot of it is held offshore and untaxed.

it's simple, the people who are financing these campaigns are people who don't want to pay taxes, don't believe that anybody helped them. they don't believe what romney just said a moment ago. they believe that whatever the law allows is okay. >> right. >> and then they go in and get the laws written to allow them to do these things and go, but i'm just doing what the law says. >> that's where morality comes in, right? because you could say it may be legal, but not necessarily ethical, but suspicious morally, you're controlling the writing of the law. >> it also represents a very troubling kind of thinking. when i was growing up, it was drilled into the head of everybody i knew, you are stewards of the earth for the time you're here. there are going to be people who will come long after you, you may be a kid now, but some day you'll be an old man with gray hair, yet the approach taken by many people in our country today is now, now, now, now, now. who are they? the people at the top, wealthiest people. >> no differed gratification they claim the poor always have. david cay johnson, thank you so much.

michele bachmann goes on a witch hunt and now republicans are condemning her actions. mitt romney says president obama doesn't understand what makes america unique. our panel will weigh in on romney's new bogus lines of attack against the preside .

republicans are turning on

one of their own after she launches a mccarthy-like attack on a long-time public servant. last month, congresswoman michele bachmann and four other house republicans sent letters to top intelligence and security officials suggesting one of secretary of state hillary clinton's top aides has ties to islamic extremists. huma abedin. they want a federal investigation to determine if abedin is using her position at the state department to elevate the group. yesterday, john mccain, the senator, of course, from arizona, defended abedin on the senate floor, demanding an end to the ugly and sinister attacks. following mccain's reprimand, bachmann wasn't answering any questions. >> hey, congresswoman, how are you? >> sorry, i can't right now. >> i want to ask you about senator mccain on the senate floor -- >> i can't do it right now. >> can you do it later? >> yes, i can. >> wow, huma -- huma, that's

what bachmann is asking there. mccain's defense of abedin has triggered several comments from republicans. the speaker john boehner also weighed in. >> from everything i do know of her, she has a sterling character, and i think accusations like this being thrown around are pretty dangerous. >> yet bachmann is standing by her rhetoric. >> if my family members were associated with hamas, a terrorist organization, that alone could be sufficient to disqualify me from getting a security clearance. >> let's turn to democratic strategist chris kofinis, welcome to the show. >> thank you. >> bachmann says the content of these letters are being distorted and this is about serious national security concerns. come on. tell us what this really is about. >> listen, i think this is about

a -- an extreme agenda that clearly a wing in the republican party has that congresswoman bachmann represents. i mean, if you step back and you think about what she said, it has to be one of the most despicable things at least i've heard in politics in a long time. that says a lot. there's a lot of despicable things said in politics. here's a lady that's a public servant, given years of her life. the pay is not great. the work is incredibly demanding and she's doing it for a passion and love of the country. that should be honored, not condemned or made these disgusting sinuations. it's truly a pathetic thing that the congresswoman has done. >> you make a great point about huma abedin, the service she's rendered at the low rates, not making money her critics are raking in, yet her patriotism is being subject to this immoral scrutiny. boehner was asked a followup about bachmann, let's take a listen. >> would you consider taking her

off the intelligence committee, congresswoman bachmann? >> i don't know that's related at all. >> boehner didn't rule out the possibility, though. if she doesn't back down, will he have any choice? >> i don't know if he has a choice or not, but actually i'll go one step further. this is not the first time congresswoman bachmann has said these types of things -- >> about huma abedin? >> about huma abedin. when you get into politics and you're a politician, you expect the rough and tumble nature of it, but like i said, this young lady who's a public servant, for her to have crossed this line, congresswoman bachmann has to consider resigning. that's how serious a statement she's made. to attack someone's patriotism and the notion that they love this country, i mean, it just crosses a line that cannot be crossed in politics. >> right, well, the focus has been on bachmann, what about the other four house members, what is their standing? >> my guess is they are going to

run for the hills now and let congresswoman bachmann take the punches, but they are all guilty of this. i give senator mccain credit for speaking out, but i haven't seen a tidal wave of folks speaking out. this kind of behavior, this kind of actions from any member of congress, but we've seen this too much from congresswoman bachmann. i'm personally tired of it. i couldn't imagine being the brunt of it. i feel really sorry for ms. abedin. >> huma abedin is a wonderful woman and noteworthy and wonderful servant. mr. kofinis thank you so much. >> thank you. much more coming this hour on "the ed show," stay tuned. i just don't think the president, by his comments, suggests an understanding of what it is that makes america such a unique nation. >> the romney campaign picks up where donald trump and sarah palin left off, painting president obama as unmerp and michele bachmann's mccarthy-like

witch hunt. >> senator mccain said what you're doing -- >> can't right now. >> going after huma? >> i can't right now. all of a sudden, republicans care about government jobs. dick cheney wants to keep the defense money flowing to pay for the next war. retired colonel lawrence wilkerson is here.

the president, in making that statement, doesn't understand how america works, doesn't understand how business works, and i wish this president would learn how to be an american. >> my goodness. what would barack obama do without the segasty of john senuno? welcome back, that was john senuno using out of context remarks of president obama to paint him as un-american. today mitt romney used those comments for the third day in a

row to attack the president, but this time he took a page out of senuno's play book, saying president obama doesn't understand what makes america unique. >> i just don't think the president, by his comments, suggests an understanding of what it is that makes america such a unique nation. >> for more on this, let's turn to political comedian john fugelsang, msnbc contributor jimmy williams, and guy benson. guy, let's start with you. isn't president obama's background a shining example of what makes america unique? if anybody understands it, it's barack obama. >> well, sure. i mean, when we talk about a personal biography, absolutely, i think he's a great american success story when it comes to his own background and the way that he's become the president of the united states, the first african-american president, that's, obviously, an amazing story, but that's a completely different question about whether or not he understands the american social compact and what he's said in virginia last weekend, i think, calls that very seriously into question.

i don't think mitt romney's comments are taking the president's remarks out of context whatsoever, and i think it's a completely legitimate and, frankly, devastating line of attack, which is why i think you're seeing a lot of damage control on the left from people trying to argue that it's out of context or to suggest that it's un-american that -- like this un-american thing. look, john apologized within minutes of saying that. the obama campaign still hasn't apologized for falsely suggesting mitt romney might be a felon, and let's not forget -- >> okay, let's not get off subject. i understand your point. jimmy, you want to jump in here to talk about what obama is up against of this social compact? >> barack obama, the president, the sitting president of the united states, is sitting in a country where half the country doesn't like him. it's just a simple, plain fact, and that's sad. let's be clear about what's happening, what he said not

once, not twice, three times. what other people have said over and over and over again, it's code. it's code he doesn't belong in the office of the presidency of the united states. when you speak in code, people get it, and you know what, that's a problem. it's a racial problem, it's a religious problem, and if you don't think it is, ask the birthers. ask the people that think he's a muslim. ask the people that say he's un-american. i'm sorry, but that's a major, major problem for this country. this is 2012, not 1963. this is not the pre-civil rights bill. this is a problem. >> john, let's take a page from that jimmy williams' play book, so to speak and talk about the dog whistles and codes. could it be argued with mitt romney's background he doesn't understand what makes america unique? >> of course, mitt romney calling the president out of touch is like calling the president honky. when you think of the use of the word un-american, the use is un-american in itself, only fascist societies or people use that kind of language. you don't hear people saying

hey, that's un-canadian of you, un-belgium. un-german, yeah, that's right. it's the birthers, why donald trump is a dog whistle only heard by racists in the mainstream media. >> can i ask a question real quick, when president obama called prosecute bush unpatriotic for the debt he raked up, was that a dog whistle of some sort? >> unpatriotic, if you don't think it isn't, ask every conservative why we have a $16 trillion deficit and why that's a patriotic thing. >> you're morally -- >> do you like the wars that got us those deficits? >> i'd be delighted. >> guy, can you deal with the wolf whistle here? is there anything within the conservative conscience that understands the deployment of co-terms that have plausible denialibility at the same time. can you not admit that's going on?

>> i don't see it. i'm not getting any of these secret dog whistle messages -- >> you don't see it, you hear it. >> i don't see it happening -- >> do you hear it? >> no, i don't hear it either. i watch this stuff all the time. you guys say, well, bush was unpatriotic for the policies we don't like what he did, but if a republican says president obama's un-american, which they immediately retract, for bad policies that he's put in place, that's all of a sudden some sort of really nasty insidious code word. >> no, no, no. no one was ever calling president bush's policies un-american or unpatriotic. it's all done in the context of barack obama is not a real american. and i don't want this to turn in the guys ganging up on guy at all, my biggest outrage is he pretty much plagiarized a much better and briefer elizabeth warren quote a few weeks ago. >> stick around.

coming up, michele bachmann's islamaphobic witch hunt is another attempt to try to portray the president as un-american. the panel will be back for more. stay tuned. we know a place where tossing and turning have given way to sleeping. where sleepless nights yield to restful sleep. and lunesta can help you get there, like it has for so many people before. when taking lunesta, don't drive or operate machinery until you feel fully awake. walking, eating, driving, or engaging in other activities while asleep, without remembering it the next day, have been reported. abnormal behaviors may include aggressiveness, agitation, hallucinations or confusion. in depressed patients, worsening of depression, including risk of suicide, may occur. alcohol may increase these risks. allergic reactions, such as tongue or throat swelling, occur rarely and may be fatal. side effects may include unpleasant taste, headache, dizziness and morning drowsiness. ask your doctor if lunesta is right for you.

then find out how to get lunesta for as low as $15 at lunesta.com. there's a land of restful sleep. we can help you go there on the wings of lunesta. up next, the panel weighs in on michele bachmann's witch hunt and the gop's islam phobia. and in the big finish, dick cheney says we can't cut defense spending because we need to prepare for our next war. colonel lawrence wilkerson weighs in. stay tuned. [ male announcer ] it seems like every company has a facebook page these days. but where's the relationship status? well, esurance is now in a relationship...with allstate. and it looks pretty serious. esurance. click or call.

welcome back to "the ed show." i'm joined again by john fugelsang, jimmy williams, and guy benson. michele bachmann actually sources frank gaffney's website in her islamaphobic attacks. gaffney has a long history of fearmongering against muslims. this is the video on the front page of that website. >> seemingly endless apologies are offered by america's leaders to people that are chronically

offended and willing to use violence against us, even without any pretext. the constant apologies amount to groveling and are understood as the submission of an entire nation. >> oh, with that scary walter kroncrite, maybe walter >> oh, with that scary walter kroncrite, maybe walter concrete, voice there. is this whole witch hunt another attempt to paint the president as un-american? >> to paint the president as un-american? >> of the united states, barack obama. >> yeah, i know who he is, but what does this have to do with him? >> we're talking about the un-americanization of barack obama, people associated with him, hillary clinton and hillary clinton's aide, the penetration of islamic, you know, muslim extremism in america. you know what we're talking about it here. why is it the good conservatives can't acknowledge what's before us. >> no, you played the clip earlier of senator mccain, who i

agree with -- look, you don't make these sort of vague insinuations and this implication, maybe this woman is connected to something sinister, unless you really have proof. there's absolutely none. >> unless you're absolutely wrong and a bigot, having a narrow viewpoint of islamic people in america and what they are likely to do. that kind of bigotry should not be tolerated by anybody, including in the halls of the congress. >> my point is you don't do that sort of thing unless you have proof, she doesn't have proof, so she was wrong to do it and senator mccain was right to call her out. by the way, one little irony about that is, this woman is married to former congressman anthony weiner, who's jewish, this would be a deep cover for her -- >> terrible muslim fundamentalist. >> the guy who plunged a plunger up the rectum of an african man was, in fact, dating a black woman. the two are not necessarily

related, my friend. >> should the house of representatives censure her for what she's done? the other members of the congress that signed that letter? >> four or five of them total? >> should they be censored for what they've done? i don't remember, but i studied in history when she went to the floor and her declaration of conscience and went after mccarthy for what he did and mccarthy was absolutely, you know, condemned by the united states senate. should the same thing happen to michele bachmann and those four gop members of congress by the house of representatives and should speaker boehner do it? >> i would like to see her answer some more questions about this. i saw the video of her running away from the reporter, i think cnn, i believe it was, refusing to answer. if you level this type of accusation, and she said it's not even an accusation, i'm just wondering. that's not good enough. >> john, isn't it un-american of bachmann to try and paint certain muslims as un-american?

>> i don't like to use the word un-american, but i have a muslim cousin, jewish sister-in-law, atheist brother, i don't get to hate anybody. michele bachmann, what she did, rather deliberate. she's going to raise money from saying what she said, and she will earn the ire of her colleagues, yes, even john boehner condemned her, but they need her because she makes them look measured and reasonable. to me, she's an embarrassment to all ignorant and lying americans. >> i represent that. a number of republicans have attacked michele bachmann. having worked for congressman bachmann's campaign for president, i am fully aware she sometimes has difficulty with her attacks, but this downright vicious and reaches the senator mccarthy level. shame on you. you should apologize to huma abedin and secretary clinton for your wild and unsubstance shated

charges. >> the problem here is across the boards. it's not muslims. it's the far right wing fundamentalists causing the problems. christians, jews, and muslims are making life really interesting for the rest of us. the moderate and progressive -- and sane conservative christian jews and muslims are getting along just fine right now today. this is making headlines because michele bachmann is the most entertaining member of congress and the only one who thinks rwanda is a sister from good times. >> thank you. tonight i asked you, do you think mitt romney will cut medicare and give the rich another tax cut? 99% say yes, 1% say no. coming up, dick cheney tells republicans on capitol hill to keep spending money to prepare for the next war. colonel lawrence wilkerson will join me. stay tuned.

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we finally found government jobs that republicans are willing to save. look no further than the department of defense. what brought on this sudden change of heart? a meeting with former vice president dick cheney. cheney came to capitol hill this week to discuss the automatic military spending cuts that will start in january. apparently, cheney proved to be

very persuasive, because the same officials that want to cut jobs from other departments now are worried about job loss at the penton and the impact it will have on defense contractors. >> we're looking at a potential, just on the defense side, 1.5 million jobs. think of what that's going to do to a fragile economy. >> according to senator lindsey graham, cheney predicted the cuts would be devastating to the military. more importantly, it will make the planning of the next war more difficult. according to graham, cheney told the group defense spending is not a spigot you can turn on and off, that you need to keep money flowing in a predictable way so you can plan for the next war, yet according to the cbo, even with big cuts, the pentagon will still be able to spend as much money as it did in 2006 when we were fighting two wars. joining me now, colonel lawrence wilkerson, currently the pamela haraman visiting professor at

the college of william and mary. professor general, welcome to the show. >> thanks for having me, mike. >> thank you, colonel. cheney oversaw drastic cuts to the defense budget during his time as defense secretary. why is he lobbying for more military spending. is it about helping out his defense contractor buddies? >> the very first time i ever heard about dick cheney, a congressman told me he never met a defense program he didn't love. the statistics you threw out there at the beginning of your spiel, they tell the story. if you did what we're recommending in an i.p.s. cap, center for american progress institute policy study and cut a trillion dollars out of the national security budget over the next ten years, roughly $100 billion a year. in the first year you'd take us down to $472 billion for the core pentagon program, and that would be about the equivalent of 2006-2007, which incidentally was one of the highest spending

years since world war ii, including all of the cold war. we'd only be cutting about 14%. dick cheney myself, and my boss colin powell at the time and george h.w. bush cut about 25%. this is not a draconian cut, even if it's done by se questation. >> you've warned about the industrial complex, nice turn of phrase there. is there any way out of it. >> well, dwight eisenhower is the man we should give credit to that. i don't know anymore. that's an excellent question. my former boss, colin powell, mentioned about nine months ago or something about us having created a industrial terrorism complex, and when you look at the homeland security budget, you look at $100 billion-plus for the intelligence community and ask what are we getting for it, and you look at this complex that we've created, dana priest and bill arcon of the washington post did a great job of covering this complex.

800,000-plus security clearances now. this is unkons shabl and taking away the money we need in the united states, and this business of borrowing to pay for these wars is simply unsustainable. we're looking at an even greater deficit in the future and the d.o.d. and national security budget in general has to pay its part of this need for us to get the deficit down. >> let's follow up on that. give us the sense after danger of a bloated defense budget then. it's doing a lot of harm versus the good calculated by its defenders. >> absolutely. we're talking about reasonable cuts, even when we talk about a trillion dollars over ten years. when you look at the entire national security budget, you have to look at the $1.2 trillion we spend, which incidentally includes homeland security, includes nuclear weapons and d.o.e., intelligence community, veterans affairs and so forth.

$1.2 trillion. that's 7% or 8% of our gdp. that's way too much. that's more than 17 other countries that are listed behind us in combination spend. that includes china and most of our allies. we're spending after of the world's expenditures on defense. this is just not necessary. >> right. look, in 30 seconds, cheney is publicly predicting the next war. is he going to be an influence on a potential romney white house? >> i hope not. i hope he's not an influence on anybody's white house ever again. >> that cannot be more succinctly and brilliantly stated. lawrence wilkerson, thank you for your time. that's "the ed show." "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. >> thank you very much. thanks to you at home for joining us. there is a celebrity in the world -- i don't know if you've heard of him or not, his name is justin bieber. he's a celebrity that became famous as a child, as a young teenager who looked young for

his age even when he was 13 or 14. well, now he is 18, and so he is going through the awkward phase where someone known for being a charismatic and popular child star tries to alert the world that they have, in fact, gone through puberty and they'd like to be seen as an adult now. the child star becomes an adult thing is an unsettling and difficult transition, and even when it works, it still is sometimes weird. it's always been that way. when shirley temple reinvented herself after being the highest profile child star ever, shirley temple rather unexpectedly came back as richard nixon's appointee to be the american ambassador to the united nations. shirley temple? yes, shirley temple. the rapper lil' bow wow, when he wanted to address his successful journey to the far side of puberty, he became just bow wow.

that works for mr. wow, kind of. ricky schroder, remember him, from "silver spoons," he became rick, not ricky, and he became a very tough tv cop, which is, you know, sometimes these transitions work, sometimes they don't. but justin bieber's attempted transition from famous child to famous man is being aided right now by a very important prop, a prop that is turning out to be a potent symbol of failure and desperation in america's presidential election. the prop is this, mr. bieber's $100,000 chrome fisker. a fisker is a car, no, they don't normally come in chrome, which i think looks like a high-end kitchen implement. looks like it should have a granite dashboard. this car, i think, doesn't usually come from the factory chromed, but if you are justin