apartment where the suspect lived appeared to be boobytrapped. >> the apartment is boobytrapped with various incendiary and chemical devices and apparent trip wires. >> we heard nothing about what the apparent motive is, why he did this. >> we are being as cautious as possible with the investigation as we move forward. we are back live in aurora and the question everyone is asking at this hour is, why? what is the motive? if police know one they aren't saying. we do know that earlier today the ten bodies still inside that theater started to be removed. we are expecting any time now to get a list of those who were killed, although police also say that they have not been able to reach the families of all the victims. now, 58 people were also injured

when a gunman opened fire just after midnight, as we said. the film is "dark knight rises." police began to get literally hundreds of 911 calls. they started at 12:39 a.m., that's local time here in colorado. >> people running out of the theater that were shot. >> we have gas masks available? >> on the east side -- east side. i need an officer on the east side. >> 14, we have a -- >> so describing a scene of confusion, chaos as the gunman walked into the theater just after the movie began. he detonated that canister of either smoke or tear gas and then began firing into the crowd. so many rounds that police say they have no idea how many. one official says the suspect bought a ticket, like everyone else, went in as part of the

crowd. it was inside theater 9, the century 16 movie theater, and what we're hearing from witnesses is that he propped open one of the emergency doors after using it to leave the theater, and that's when he came back in. police say they took the suspect, james eagan holmes, into custody without incident outside that same emergency exit. authorities searched his car, which was located just outside. they confirmed that they recovered four guns. three that he had with him, apparently, inside the theater, one from the car. they were a remington model 890 single daryl, 12 gauge shotgun, two hand glock guns and an air-type rifle often referred to as an assault rifle. we also learned all of these guns were purchased within the last two months. the most recent just a couple of weeks ago, all of them were purchased legally. now, letsds ta's take a look wh

know about this suspect. police tell nbc news that james eagan holmes it dyed his hair, kind of an orangish-red and identify as the joker, of course, one of batman's nemesises. holmes is 24 years old originally from san diego. a ph.d. student at the university of colorado in denver and described as a brilliant science student. the university says he enrolled in june of last year, but was in the process of withdrawing from the neuroscience graduate program. after his arrest, he actually told police that his apartment was boobytrapped, and police who went in there found all sorts of trip wires. they found what they believe are incendiary devices. they have a huge problem on their hands, although of the five apartment buildings in the complex where he lived, in four of them, police are slowly going to allow people to go back in and get emergency supplies, things like medicine or baby

supplies. however, obviously, that apartment building is still in lockdown. let me bring a couple of people who yesterday were completely -- please, come on in -- who were xw excited about coming to this movie. joining me, jennifer and corbin, thanks for being here. when did you realize something was very wrong? >> well, when he first came in, you know, everybody thought he was part of the show. you know. we thought that he was -- he was going to just add some extra, you know, zazz or something. >> he a -- >> exactly what we thought. >> that's what everybody was thinking. that's why they were hesitant at first to even react. and then once he threw the gas can, as far as -- we don't know what kind of gas. it looked like tear gas or something like that and people started coughing up, and started to freak out at that point, then

we realized there's something else going on, and just to clarify, after that, he took his first shot into the ceiling to make everybody get scared and it was pandemonium and chaos from that point. people were yelling, there's a gun, there's a gun, they were running. then we realized he wasn't there to entertain. he was there to hurt people. >> what did you do? >> immediately went to the floor. we tried to bear crawl our way to safety. >> i was told that as he saw people running, then he was aiming at people. is that what you saw? >> oh, yes. >> were you even trying to see where he was? >> i'm sorry. >> he, at the time, was five feet away from me and before -- he dropped to the ground first, and you know, he pulled a gun in front of my face and was literally four, five feet away from me. at that point i realized i only had, like, a window of opportunity to move out of the way. >> he was literally pointing -- >> yes, ma'am. >> what was it? a handgun?

>> no. it was a rifle. at that point i was so terrified. >> your heart must have stopped? >> exactly. i didn't know what to do. either i can stand here and get shot or i can move. i dove into the aisle and tried to bury myself and get under the chair as much as possible. >> did you see this happen? did you see him point a gun at her? >> i did not see her, i was already on the ground and concentrating on the people in front of me trying to crawl out so we could get around to the other side of the theater to make our way up the other side of the aisle. >> was it dark at this time? >> pitch black. the movie playing at the entire time. loud on that end. people screaming and crying, and getting shot, and there was gunshots. it was just loud. it was hard to see and tell what was going on and where. all happened at the same time. >> did you feel people weren't going to make it out of the theater alive? >> it certainly seemed that way. >> when did you finally make

your way out? >> it came to a point where the gunshots stopped for a brief moment. >> let me just stop you there, because the police say they don't know how many bullets went off. i mean, how long was this going on? was it con tastantconstant? >> it was 15, 20 minutes, the rounds were going off. at a point, a brief moment of silence and i looked up to see if he was anywhere higher up, which i did not find. once i saw there was a clearing, we had to book out of there. >> there were other people around us as well. we were just trying to get everybody out to safety. at that point -- >> there were kids in there? >> yes, there were. there was. i heard there was a 6-year-old kid that got shot. there was a baby in there. i mean, 14-year-old kids. 13-year-old kids. young children there and adolescences, and as far as i can see, when we were leaving, i saw, just so many bodies just laying in the stairs, laying on the chairs.

they were laying their lifeless. they looked dead to me, either that or injured. as we going out, he left before me. he ran before me, and i was crawling to try to get out, and i nudged into this gentleman and he had a gunshot in his back, and at that point i had some former ems training as an emt and it kind of kicked in instinctively and i just took his pulse to see if he was alive, if he was okay. he wasn't doing too hot. i was, i'm going to save this guy. so i started to pull him's everybody's like, don't pull him, don't do that. the gunner's coming. i pulled him three feet and i left because i was scared. >> you have -- >> i vo no idea if that was true or not. my back was turned at that point and i always think about it throughout the day? is that guy okay? i have no idea if he's one of the people that's dead. no idea. it runs through my mind, or did i know somebody that's dead or got hurt?

highly likely, because there's so many people in there and so many bodies. i couldn't believe. he literally just went up and down aisles just shooting. anybody he could shoot. >> did it hit you jet what you witnessed and experienced? >> right now i'm in a calm state. it hasn't hit me. i'm pretty sure throughout the weekend it may take a toll. >> has it hit you that you came that close? >> i'm trying not to think about it, because if i question it too much, then i might dwell a little too much and get really sad. i've had my emotional ups and downs today. obviously, moments where i was crying, really hysterical, been really calm. it's been up and down as far as my experience is going but i'm kind nf the numb stage as far as i haven't had time to soak it all in yet. >> one thing that hit me, too, how many family members were trying to figure who was in there? it was playing in a couple theaters. it's my, if my whoever, relative, friend, one of the

people got killed or injured. were you able to reach your families, or what happened? >> we were able to reach our families, as soon as we got ot into the lobby and into the parking lot, i brought ginny back her my car and then to her car and went straight home to get as far away as possible. >> i stayed to give a statement. i called my parents, friends close to me. as far as that goes. i was just hysterical at that point. i just didn't know a thing. i was just trying to, you know, get through each moment and then they brought us to the school, for more questioning, and interviewing with the -- the police department, and i was just -- i was, that was a calming moment for that time period. literally everything we've been through these past two days is an up and down thing. sometimes you think about it. it gets to you. other time, i got to push forward and be strong for the people that we lost.

>> you have been remarkably strong. we are both glad you're here to talk to us and i hope you can get some rest, and we seriously thank you. thank you so much. i know this has been a horrible tragedy in your community, and we appreciate you coming on. thank you so much. again, we're left with this question, who is this man? why would he do this? mike taibbi has been looking into this and we will talk to him after we come back from this break, live from aurora, colorado. we could be here for hours. we could be here for days trying to figure out how to get in there. obviously we're concerned about getting in there for the evidence there is, but the pictures are pretty disturbing. it looks pretty sophisticated as far as how it's boobytrapped. [ crunches ] mmm. ♪ [ male announcer ] pringles... bursting with more flavor. [ crunch! ]

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through the internet he purchased over 6,000 rounds of ammunition, more than 3,000 rounds of 223, ammunition for the assault rifle. 3,000 rounds of .40 caliber ammunition for the two glocks in his possession and 300 rounds for the 12 gauge shotgun. also through the internet he purchased multiple magazines for the 223 caliber assault rifle including one 100-round drum magazine recovered from the scene. i've been asked, was the weapon automatic or semiautomatic, i can't answer that question, even if it was semiautomatic i'm told

by experts that with that drum magazine, he could have gotten off 50 to the 60 rounds, even if it was semiautomatic with one minute, and as far as we know it was a pretty rapid pace of fire in that theater. >> and than was from a news conference just about an hour ago, getting more information about what happened here in aurora, colorado. welcome back. i'm chris jansing, and there are some things we are learning about james holmes. for example, he grew up in california. he went to undergrad there, and in klemp college an honor stude. in fact, a brilliant student, people say. he moved here to the denver, colorado area and enrolled into a ph.d. program in neuroscience. recently he began the process of dropping out of the program, for reasons we don't know. why did he do what he did? nbc's mike taibbi looks into that. >> reporter: the few people who

had any contact with james eagan holmes in his aurora neighborhood describe him as not just quiet wus a recluse who lived with the shades drawn and when he did meet someone revealed is little. >> he kept doing so, didn't like a lot of attention. >> never heard anything abnormal until this morning when we heard loud techno music playing. >> reporter: witnesses said the suspect hb no message at all. >> he didn't say a word. not a word. >> reporter: but he was dressed in full battle gear. >> he was wearing a ballistic helmet and tactical ballistic vest. ballistic leggings and a groin protector and a gas mask and black tactical gloves. >> looks like a deranged individual. he had his hair painted red. he said he was the joker. obviously, the quote "enemy" of batman. >> reporter: growing up in san diego, no sign of future trouble. holmes played soccer and went to

neighborhood birthday parties. >> a nice kid, grew up in a nice neighborhood. >> reporter: then a bachelor of science drip at riverside. >> an honor student. so academically, he was at the top. the top. >> reporter: before moving to colorado last year to study the biological basis of psychiatric and neurological disorders at uc's anschutz medical campus. he quit last month and recently purchased two weapons. the last bought two weeks ago. after the shootings he warned police the mayhem may not be over. >> our investigation determined that his apartment is boobytrapped with various incendiary and chemical devices and apparent trip wires. so we have an active and difficult scene. >> reporter: while the police worked deliberately in approach to holmes' that building and others evacuated, reports, our

hearts go out to those who were involved in this tragedy and we are still trying to process this information and we appreciate that people will respect our privacy, from his parents. and outside the apartment, our affiliate is standing by live. jeremy, we learned earlier that the police were going allow some people to go back into their apartments in the buildings around the main building, but what's going on there right now and what can you tell us about their efforts to try to figure out exactly how serious this situation is inside that apartment with the boobytrap? >> reporter: i can tell you, it's an extraordinarily delicate situation here. earlier we were told one liter bottles full of unknown liquid connected to trip wires. within the past hours you heard during the press conference the chief of police saying there appears to be mortar rounds and jars of ammunition inside this

apartment complex. this scene appears to be a loaded apartment complex. it seems that this man was methodical in his planning and his thinking. we've been told and have been reporting all day today that the fire department and the police department snapped photographs from outside the apartment. they snapped photographers, and they are using those photographs to dissect their method on how they're going to enter this apartment. as you heard the chief of police say there from aurora, he's never seen anything like this. not only is there a significant amount of dangerous elements inside this apartment, but there's also potential evidence that they want to preserve. so that's why at this point, they not move in today. earlier today the scene behind me looked quite different. this place was crawling with police. it was crisscrossed with police tape. lots of paramedic vehicles here. tonight there's a sense of calm. there's a couple of officers there of the aurora police

department who told me they'll be here until 11:00 tonight. residents who have been evacuated in the three-block area can come and get vital things like medicine if they need to. there's been an evacuation center set up at a high school nearby. at this point, people want to go home. people i evacuated from these places here. about 3:00 colorado time, there's a lot of people just confused about what happened. you know, police were knocking on their doors early in the morning saying you've got to get out. these folk, these poor folks had no idea what was happening at the theater miles away. at this point it's a waiting game. a delicate, sensitive process. the big priority for police is safety. >> and, jeremy what can you tell us about these reports that a couple of the neighbors had called non-emergency numbers, because there was music blasting between midnight and 1:00 a.m.? >> reporter: yeah, you know, a very strange and kind of bizarre

account. i actually spoke to those neighbors. they live right underneath the apartment unit belonging to james holmes, and they tell me it was -- it was, you know, an apartment complex that was usually quiet, and that there was really no noises that came from the unit above them. these folk, pretty articulate when i spoke to them. they told me that you know, all of a sudden, at the stroke of midnight, this loud techno music started to play, and then for some reason, all of a sudden, it just cut off at 1:00 in the morning. they speculate it was, perhaps, some sort of time sort of lure. maybe perhaps to lure someone to go knock on the door. that's what they speculate. if this has anything to do with the investigation, who know, but it's certainly an interesting moment in all of this. >> from kusa on the scene all day. thank you so much for taking the time. when we come back we're going to talk to former fbi p

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hey, flobot, great job. oops. [ powers down ] uh-oh, flobot is broken. the "name your price" tool, only from progressive. call or click today. he was a really scary guy, wearing a gas mask and a kevlar suit. looked like he was in the military or a s.w.a.t. guy. he had a vest on. one of the witnesses inside the movie theater here in aurora, colorado, who is describing james holmes, and tonight the fbi and atf have suspended their efforts to get inside his apartment. let me bring in clint van zandt, crime an legitimate for nbc news and a former fbi profiler, and, clint, i think one of the puzzling things of the many about this is that this guy goes

up to police, he turns himself in very quietly. he calls himself the joker and then he says, and, by the way, i've boobytrapped my apartment. what do you make of that? >> well, a number of things, chris. you know, when we consider what your former, the last guest said about the alarm going off and the music going off at midnight in his apartment. realize, it was less than 30 minutes plus or minus late whir the shooting started. so we have to consider as an investigator, as an fbi agent, was that something he intentionally did to draw attention to his apartment. number one, did he want a neighbor, a landlord, even a law enforcement officer to try to go in, set off an explosion. therefore, first responders would troush that scene -- would rush to that scene and he would be three miles away doing the

shooting? chris, that's the exact same thing that happened in europe t. two days from now the one-year anniversary of that terrible shooting on that island where all those teenagers were shot and killed. he set off the explosive device in the city itself and then he went out and did the shooting. did he model his behavior after that same shooter? and in this particular case, once he didn't need that anym e anymore, did he tell law enforcement, because, look, he carried a pistol, a semiautomatic pistol, just like police do. a shotgun, just like police do. an ar 15, just like police do. he wore a uniform, like police or military prp was this guy some type of a wannabe, but at that time there was no need for law enforcement officers to go in. so he offered up that information? that's what fbi agents and investigators are going to have to consider as they try to put the pieces of this terrible puzzle back together. >> and he dyes his hair this

orange-red, calms himself the joker. obviously, that's the nemesis of batman and this is the latest installment of the batman series, but do you put any other significance on that, or -- >> well, he chose this particular day, this time, the opening of the movie. i mean, this is a target-rich environment. this is a terrible place to act out violently, just like the movie is violent, and by doing that to his hair, and by making that statement, he is linking himself to that movie and to that scenario. the question is, about what does that mean? chris, this is not somebody who freud would say is crazy. he newspapknew what he was doin. as you pointedous, he methodically planned this, assembled the weapons over a two, four-month period, bought 6,000 rounds of ammunition. i saw someone on tv today talk about how methodical when the shooting started, not only did he throw one or two tear gas

canisters but the two long gun, the .12 gauge shotgun, a terrible weapon, up close. so he's firing that shotgun, putting buck shot out. anybody close to him that would drive them away. then he drops the shotgun and transitions to the ak 15 and starts firing to people as they ran out. this guy thought this out, planned it, knew what they was doing. this is not crazy. this is methodical. >> and you also have a studious guy, somebody described as a brilliant science student, quiet. in fact, a lot of his neighbors, now that he's moved here, what was so unusual about the music was the fact that he usually kept to himself. he kept the shades closed. put your profiler hat on for us. based on what you know and based on what you know about these kinds of situations, what other things would you expect to learn about him or what are the key questions you want answered, clint? >> well, chris, we know from studies that in 75% of mass

shootings, realize there's been 27 mass shootings, mass casualties since the 1999 columbine incident, and in a study of those mass shootings, about 75% of the time someone else either knew what was going to happen or suspected what was going to happen. now, there are going to be those who say, well, there's a mental health issue here, and it could be. he's in his mid-20s. the mental health issues could be coming forward again. who, perhaps, would know better than his parents. they've yet to have the chance to talk about this. so there's a lot of things we need to know about this guy's background, much less him no longer being in college, what was the final catalyst that brought him to this point? >> clint van zandt, we always appreciate your expertise. clint, thank you so much. when we come back here live to aurora, colorado, 12 people killed, 58 wounded in the movie theater behind me.

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i'm just trying to keep my sister's name alive and trying to erase the name of this character from the media. you look at the massacre in norway and oslo, who do you remember, this isn't what this is going to be. we're going to remember the names of the victims. whether the be the 12 fatally wounded or all of them. the wounded and fatally injured. we will remember those names before we remember the shooter's name. >> that was jordan ghawi, whose 24-year-old sister jennifer was among 12 people killed here in aurora, colorado. welcome back. i'm chris jansing. continuing with the coverage of the tragedy last night. you have your arm in a sling. tell me about your injury. >> i didn't know i suffered an injury until i was trying to evacuate the theater. i had a friend, we were all down

on the ground. he continued to fire shots. didn't know when a good time to go was. he kept firing, people were running towards the exit, and he continued to fire. the whole time i was sneaking down there, my good friend rebecca, we went to the movie, single mom, still missing. >> she's missing? >> yeah. she suffered -- when i picked her up, when he stopped firing, i picked her up, she had blood all over her, she was unconscious. my first thought, get her out of there, but there were people in the way, people shot, people coming down the stairs, and it made it difficult to go by. ended up falling down. i just sat her down and got out. i figured i could come in with the police, they would come help her out and the gunman had stopped firing, but he started again. i think i suffered the injury then but i didn't even know i was shot because i was trying to

get out of there. >> you must have been in a state of shock? >> i don't know. i think i'm still in a state of shock about all the events that took place. >> you actually have your shirt with you, and we can see. >> everybody noticed it except for me, and you can see the two bullet -- >> hole there's. >> from the shrapnel and it's still in my arm. they put a cast on it, and i'm not doing well with it. i actually have the shrapnel still in my shoulder, shoulder muscle. it does hurt a great bit. they did give me treatment last night and tried to say they were evacuating rebecca out when i was asking about her outside. by the time i got outside, police were coming in, people were leaving. it was complete chaos. so my thing was to make sure it was okay, went to any ambulance and hospital and i am refused, and several witnesses, i even got on my knee, i really care about my friend and to this day they still don't know in the past 24 hours where she's at. the last time i saw her, she had

blood all over her and she was just laying there, and i just -- you know, i regret not trying to get her out, but at the same time, there was so many things going on. there was gunshots, and i think that's when i sufferered the wound. >> it was still dark. the movie's still playing. i can't even imagine. you must have almost felt trapped in there, especially for people in the middle of the theater trying to get out of the aisles. >> i was in the middle of the theater. it's always the best seat. the thing was when that gas went off, we all thought -- the gas went left to the right we thought, man what if some little kids -- a lot of little kids watching the batman movie. so we assumed it was a prank, a part of the movie, but when the guy -- he fired two shots at, like, the bar or the front row area, and then it lit off these fireworks. i'm like, who's bringing fire twoshgs a mov

fireworks to a movie theater? saul you heard was boom, boom, boom. that's when i grabbed rebecca and the girl next to me, who i didn't even know. we were on the floor, between, sandwiched in between the row, and the row, i'm a big guy, and the row was taking up all my row. i basically got on top of those guys hope i didn't get shot in the back or whatever. i got scars on my knees to prove it. just the most -- helpless situation i think i've ever been in, and i just was thinking that, you know, just calm down. what can you do? i decided once he stopped firing that i would just get up, grab her and leave, and then -- you know, it just didn't happen that way, and it was just so chaotic. there were little kids screaming for their parents. there were people who were shot in the head that i was crawling over. there were people who, like, chunks out of their leg. it was the most horrific scene and i wanted to help everybody, but i felt the best thing i could do is try to get out, get the police in, or if the guy came my way, try to tackle him,

but he was circling around the other side and he started shooting again and really made it apparent i don't know if that was happening and people were mad rushing for the exits. as i go out to the theater lobby, there were so many -- like the other movie theaters had heard what had happened, the gunshots. what they did, they con virgver too. all sandwiched trying to get out the door. i didn't even notice my arm was bleeding. >> you've been through a traumatic experience to say the least. you're injured. your friend is missing. how are you even processing all of this? >> you know -- this whole incident has, like, restored my faith and, like, things that i know are true. i know that, like -- you know -- we might be battered, you know. this might be just something that, like -- you know, maybe changes the way we think about things. maybe we should be more secure in our thinking with our children and all different kinds of things.

the most important, it's really strengthened my strength in the lord, and i just feel he protect immediate through that. he protected a lot of people. i don't know why some people get kill and some people don't, but i really feel like his grace was sufficient and i just ask that we all take a step back and we reflect on this as a country, you know, as a city, aurora you know. and, like we might be wounded like my arm right now, but i think that we can -- we're going to heal. you know? i know that's hard to say right now, because my friend's missing, and i talked to her family. she's got two little daughters, you know. this girl was a single mom who, like, tried to do everything she could for her kids and be the best mom. i talked to her ex-husband. he was in tears. i just feel that, if i could find answers to where she's at and what's going on, whether she in the hospital paralyzed or, you -- in critical condition and can't call or whatever. i know she's definitely not able-bodied, and i know, like, the worst-case scenario could be

she may be inside that theater. and so -- i don't know. >> we hope that you get the answers that you're searching for, and good luck to you. thank you so much for taking the time. >> sure. >> i hope you heal physically and the emotional part of it will come with your family and friends. thank you for being with us. we're going to talk more about this community of aurora, colorado, when our special coverage continues. building pass, corporate card, verizon 4g lte phone. the global ready one ? yeah, but you won't need... ♪ hajimemashite. hajimemashite. hajimemashite. you guys like football ? thank you so much. i'm stoked. you stoked ? totally. ... and he says, "under the mattress." souse le matelas. ( laughter ) why's the new guy sending me emails from paris ? paris, france ? verizon's 4g lte devices are global-ready. plus, global data for just $25. only from verizon.

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i'm sure that many of you who are parents here had the same reaction that i did when i heard this news. my daughters go to the movies. what if malia and sasha had been at the theater? as so many of our kids do every day. michelle and i will be fortunate enough to hug our girls a little tighter tonight, and i'm sure you will do the same with your children. >> that was the president earlier today, both he and mitt romney issued statements of sympathy to the victims here in aurora, colorado, and all politicians have suspended political ads on television here in colorado, but as marcus weaver just asked the question, what next? what happens here in aurora? let me bring in two guests. bill briggs, nbc news contributor. also covered columbine which is

just 12, 13 miles down the road, and tom mouser, whose son daniel was killed at column comen cull booin who was just 159 years old. all of us were at columbine, and how does the community cope in the aftermath? such a shock. everybody we've spoken to seems to be in the say the of shock. >> that's the first phase. we have to get through it again. it's horribly familiar. you work through it once again. this is a community with some practice, unfortunately, on thousand handle this, how to cope, how to help the victims, how to help the police officers and the paramedics and stuff. unfortunately, we're pretty good at it. >> and, tom what would you say? i mean, as i've been watching some of the survivors come through, and they speak so matter of factually, and you know that what they have been through is such a tragedy, and unfortunately, you can put

yourself in the shoes of the family members. >> yes. i think they are in shock and it's hard to say how they will react. i think they have to accept this. it's very difficult. it's like changing. even, for example, the students who were in the library at columbine, where ten lives were lost. those students who survived, it's very difficult for them. it's still traumatic for many of them. >> you have become a spokesperson for cease-fire colorado. but i also heard today you saying you're not sure this will change anything. tell me what you hope to do, and why you think this won't make a difference? >> well i think experience, unfortunately, and sadly, has stheen shown that it won't bring about much change. we say, how terrible, how terrible, we need to do something, and sadly, we go back to our own lives.

and many people that didn't directly impact them, they will just kind of move on from there. because that's been the pattern in america. we just -- we seem to just be so accepting of this terrible epidemic of gun violence. >> yet we did talk about it amp columbine. we talked about it much more after the gabby gifford shooting. do you think things will change? >> i think in colorado, it's an interesting dynamic. this is a frontier state with a very western mentality. guns are part of the culture here. i don't see that changing. i don't see -- it's interesting to tom, in the middle of this battleground waging this fight, because this is a tough place to basically sell that argument here in colorado, but you have something measured, which we did in colorado. we said we need to close the gun loophole. why should somebody be able to go into a gun store and buy a gun? our elect the officials wouldn't deal with it.

took it to a vote of the people. 70% of the people said, yes. so if you have -- >> why do you think that worked, when it's been so difficult nationally and state by state? >> because, you know, frankly, it's a lot easier for the gun lobbying, people who don't want to see change, to badger, buy and bully 51 out of 100 legislators. it's a lot tougher for them to do that to a whole electorate who can look at it and see, this is reasonable, and we can change this. this doesn't -- we still have our rights. we can still go to the gun show if we're law abiding and buy a gun. let's not let those people go a gun show and buy a gun so readily. >> from a lot of people, you hear it from the nra and from other people, it's not the guns. it's criminals. it's not the guns. it's people who are mentally ill. >> but this man was not a criminal. the man who committed this crime was not a criminal.

he will find out how mentally disturbed he was, some mental disturbance, and, yes, society did not intervene and do anything about him. and yet we make it so easy for someone like him to get a gun, because guns are so readily available. when they say, you know, it's the person, not the gun. we've had a lot of different kind of people commit these horrible crimes. we've seen it happen in so many place, but the common denominator is the gun. >> bill, you were a reporter in this area for how many years? >> too many. >> obviously going back at least to columbine. tell me what you think the stories will focus on tomorrow? will there be any substantive even discussion about guns? >> i think there's always substantive -- i mean, there's substance that each of these mass tragedies always brings out and it's always the conversation about the gun, and it's a very important conversation. as tom said it typically doesn't really go anywhere. there's a lobbying reason for that. i think we will learn a bit more about mental illness, i hope,

out of this situation. the columbine situation, mental illness, i think played a big factor in that. i think we'll find out it did in this as well. it's didn't stigmatized, it needs to be talked about sooner. >> unfortunately, we're not an intervening nation. we stand aside and don't bother people. we don't intervene. >> there's a couple of thing, personal things, that i want to ask you about, and one was just your reaction. i can't even imagine. i mean, obviously, for me, when i heard where it was immediately i thought, wow, that's -- i was here recently on another story and i remember, you know, driving to the area nap is so close to columbine. how did this happen again? what went through your mind when you heard? >> shock. disbelief. i think it was just disbelief. this can't be happening in this community again. >> and there, also, i thought

was very point yagnantly, we he one of the family members of one of the victims, he doesn't want the shooter name to be the only one throughout. i guess you can relate? >> i can very much relate to that. i think that's something that the media is play such a large role in. although, you know, it's difficult when you have so many names and so many victim, but it helps so much to have the media talking about the victims and their stories. the stories of their lives. unfortunately, so many people focus on the killers, the killers, the killers. we can't have that kind of focus. let's find out about them, yes. let's not use their name. normally when i speak, i speak of the columbine killers. i don't use their name a lot. >> it's been very difficult, obviously. one of the things that we're dealing with as journalists, obviously, is with this exception, we don't really know right now who the victims are and so we're waiting to hear, and it's -- it's got to be a

methodical process on the part of the police, bill, because you don't want -- you don't want something out there, you don't want someone to learn on television or see in the newspaper that somebody they know or loved has been killed. >> and i think that's part of what we've learned, what this law enforcement learned in the columbine situation. how to do that right. how to not release information that was going to hurt people prematurely or hurt a case prematurely. in this case they have a live suspect and they need to see this through to justice. >> bill, great report perp glad to see you again. sorry under such circumstances and you as well, tom. thank you so much and for the great work you've been doing. we really appreciate it. that's going to do it from here in aurora, colorado, and we are remembering the victims. 12 who were killed, 58 injured. complete coverage starting at 7:00 eastern on msnbc, and i will see you back here for special coverage tomorrow afternoon. i'm chris jansing. thank you. ♪

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colorado nightmare, the day after. still more questions than answers in that theater massacre leaving the nation in shock. he was really big guy, really terrifying, wearing a gas mask and he like a kevlar kind of suit. he looked like a s.w.a.t. guy as far as that goes. he looked like he was in the military or a s.w.a.t. guy. >> how long -- >> a vest on. >> and at this hour, the mystery still unraveling at the apartment of the suspected killer. >> the investigation determined that his apartment is boobytrapped with various incendiary and chemical devices and apparent trip wires. >> police try to figure ow how

to get into the suspect's apartment while we learn more on the man who he is and how he plotted his alleged crime. and heartbreaking stories of victims and their families. >> you know, the thought crossed my mind that he was going to walk up the aisles and, you know, kill everyone, and so there's definitely a moment where in my mind, i thought, wow, this really might be the end. >> and today, heightened security at theaters as a nation mourns in the wake of one of the biggest mass killings in its history. go morning, everyone. new developments on the effort to enter the suspect's boobytrapped apartment. a robot will attempt to enter the residence this morning. investigators discovered the apartment is indeed rigged with potentially deadly explosives. nearby residents evacuated. the suspect, 24-year-old james holmes,