voting rights, civil rights, women's rights, medicare, medicaid, people called them entitlements. the people that seem to feel entitled are those that enjoy the most. those that think they should get the tax cuts and take trillions out, while people that have invested and fought and stood for this country only want fairness. that's what we're fighting for. that's what we must win. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. defending the cave man. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews. atop the dreamland theater on my last night in nantucket. let me start tonight with this

right wing assault on women, this cave man view of the sexes. that is now shone its ugly head. nobody paid it any attention last week when speaker boehner himself dared to mention the so-called knuckle draggers in his party. the hard right wild men who believe the president's a secret muslim invader, that women who have an abortion or use an iud be treated as murderers. now comes this republican candidate in missouri, todd akin, talking about legitimate rape, and, spouting some cave man theory that sex, which is forced, cannot result in pregnancy. finally, we meet the missing link. the evidence that the party of lincoln cannot get in bed with the most freakish elements of the right, the birthers and the personhood nuts and all the rest of this menagerie and not become, itself, a freak show. let's state it right clearly up front. a woman forced to have sexual relations at the threat of harm is a victim of rape. there are no qualifiers, no area of legitimacy or little legitimacy. and by the way, as the great michael kinsley put it, in politics, a gaffe is when you say what you really think.

this is what you hear when up have a krog mag nonsay what he really thinks. the editorial director for "huffington post" cynthia tucker. syndicated columnist. i have to start with supt ya. here is what this guy said in an interview, it's what todd akin said that got him into trouble. he was answering a question about pregnancy as the result from rape. let's listen. >> it seems to me, first of all, from what i understand from doctors, that's really rare. if it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to shut that whole thing down. but let's assume that maybe that didn't work or something, you know, i think there should be some punishment, but the punishment should be on the rapist and not attacking the child. >> what do you think of that when you hear that said by a united states congressman by the way? not just a candidate for senate. this fella is already in office. representing about 600,000 or 800,000 people. your thoughts. >> it takes my breath away,

chris. and lest we think that todd akin is just some ultraconservative creten, who doesn't represent the main stream of the republican party, let's not be fooled into thinking that. he may be a creten, but that has become the view of the republican main stream. i first heard this nonsense in 2003. on the floor of the georgia senate. don thomas, a republican speaking in favor of an ant anti-abortion bill, stood up and said basically the same thing. women don't get pregnant through rape. and that guy was a physician. since then, i have heard various versions of that foolishness, which is completely medically unsound, repeated in various places, by republicans, by conservatives. now, the contempt for women inherent in that view is simply appalling. they don't believe that good

girls get raped at all. only in their view, shameless hussies who have somehow asked for it get raped. and again, that view has now filtered into the mainstream of the republican party. >> what do you think he means? let's get to the heart of the thinking behind this. this wasn't a gaffe. this is thinking on his part. my question is this. in other words, if a woman is threatened with her life, her children's life, a knife's up to her neck, a gun's at her head and she has sex with a guy under that threat of life or danger to her well being, is that a rape unless it's a physically overwhelming force? i mean, what is he actually -- what's he trying to parse here? what's he trying to say? >> unless she is beaten within an inch of her life or has a gun pointed at her head, it's not really rape. that's what the thinking here is. again, they believe that a woman who yells rape was doing something she had no business doing. they don't believe that a woman

who is going about her business at her office, going to the car in a mall parking place, can be raped, assaulted by a stranger. they believe only women who are somehow putting themselves in harm's way, shameless hussies, are out there charging rape. that's the view that is implicit in todd akin's comments. >> howard, i wanted to start with a woman here just because of the obvious nature of what we're talking about. i want to get back to you on the politics here, the pure politics of this what does this fella mean? i followed the rest of his statement trying to figure out what he's trying to say here. "you know, i think there should be some punishment." some punishment? it used to be a capital crime in much of the country. there should be some punishment for rape. well, we got to do something to this guy. but the punishment ought to be on the rapist. what kind of thinking is this guy engaged in? does he really believe in rape?

i don't know what he's talking about. >> what matters here and makes this important politically is not what it might or might not do to the missouri senate race. whether he stays in or not et cetera. claire mccaskill's chances of re-election or not. what matters is that the views that todd akin has espoused and the legislation he's supported is in line with what the perspective vice presidential nominee paul ryan believes and supported. that's what turns this into a huge issue. because akin is the paul ryan of missouri. and this created a huge problem for the romney campaign yesterday and today, as they sought to sever todd akin from paul ryan and unite paul ryan with the somewhat different view that mitt romney now has.

>> let me get back to cynthia on this, because this is exactly the way i read it when i heard this. this guy ryan, forget all the budget stuff, all the weemds ov weemds over there. when it comes to his social philosophy, he's a cosponsor, not just a supporter, a cosponsor of this personhood amendment. if a woman uses about iud, she's effectively murdering. so, here's a guy, ryan, who's totally in sync with this guy. he may not have the cave man vocabulary of the guy, but he believes what the guy believes. if a woman has an abortion, she's killing a person and therefore doesn't matter if it's the result of a rape orp not. >> well, paul ryan has said for years that he does not believe in abortion in case of rape or incest. that has been his policy up until the time that mitt romney basically says it wasn't. i have not heard paul ryan say he does not believe that. he has said, the only exception

he believes in is if the mother's life is in danger. paul ryan was a cosponsor of the bill that would have changed the definition of rape. federal law now says that federal funds may be used to pay for an abortion in case of rape. the republicans had a bill last year which paul ryan cosponsored that would have said federal funds can only be used in the case of forcible rape. that didn't pass. the bill was changed, but paul ryan was a cosponsor of that. so as far as i'm concerned, paul ryan's views line up very neatly with todd akin's views. >> howard, you know this guy's not alone there. tony perkins, who's been on this program and i've been rebuked a number of times for even letting him show up on this show. but i want people to hear that point of view. they're going to vote in november. they ought to know what they're

getting on that right wing side. of the family research council, supporting this guy. >> yes. that's right. and i think what's going to happen now is that the romney ryan headquarters up in boston have said that the ticket is unified. and what that means is that they're unified behind mitt romney's current view. which is that abortion can be allowed in the case of rape, incest or the life of the mother. also, mitt romney has not directly or completely or really at all endorsed the human life personhood amendment you're talking about, although did he flirt a little bit down in mississippi during in primary season. >> wait a minute. let's get this straight. has ryan taken himself out as a cosponsor of the bill? >> yes, i think he is. that's what i'm saying. >> all this bs we're getting is hiding the fact that the core belief of this campaign is there. >> that's what's going on right now. paul ryan is who he is.

paul ryan said proudly year after year, week after week, day after day, he said there's nobody in congress more pro-life than me. and as cynthia said, he supported the legislation and the proposed constitutional amendments you're talking about. one reason why there's pressure in the republican ranks, from karl rove, from sean hannity, from the national review, to get todd akin off the stage, is that he reminds everybody of where paul ryan was until a few minutes ago and probably still is. >> you know, cynthia -- let's take a look at what howard just said. top republicans, reince priebus and senators mitch mcconnell and john cornyn are urging akin to re-every value wait his candidacy. and that's politics speak for inviting him to get out. republican senate campaign committee said it will stop supporting akin's race as karl

rove stopped supporting him with american crossroads. but this afternoon, akin tweeted "am in this race to win. we need a conservative senate. help me defeat claire by donating." then he seems to leave the door open in an interview with hannity. here he is on radio. let's listen. >> all of those things have to be taken a good look at and i appreciate your perspective and also, so yeah, continuously be taking a look at all those different alternatives. at this point, my sense is that it's the right thing to do. >> cynthia, i think we're watching a very quick, desperate cover-up here. what they want is this alliance with the hard right. the real feverish cave man type, like this guy, the birthers and the far right characters, the personhood types. they want them as part of their coalition. but the minute the middle of the country gets a good hearing of them and knows

what they stand for, you're only getting rid of one person. the element is still there. and certainly the family research council represents it. >> they don't just want an alliance. the hard right has taken over the republican party. they're not trying to run away from paul ryan. yes, they want todd akin off the stage. they want todd akin off the stage because he's foolish enough and inarticulate enough to say what he really thinks in the middle of a high profile u.s. senate campaign. paul ryan has the good sense not to talk about abortion anymore. but the fact is, i have not heard paul ryan say himself that he has changed his views. paul ryan still does not believe that abortion should be available for women who are victims of rape. he still doesn't believe that. so this isn't an alliance. this is isn't uneasy marriage of convenience, these ultra

conservatives who have nothing but contempt for women have now taken over the heart of the republican party. >> but chris -- >> does mitt romney want women to know that? no, he doesn't. >> cynthia speaks for millions here, howard. obama is at 54% with women in this country, according to our own poll. romney is down to 39. that's a 15-point spread. i would say that's going to be a grand canyon at the end of the week. your thoughts? >> that's what the republican strategists are worried about, but i would just point out that mitt romney picked paul rhinoing full well how deep into the well of pro-life sentiment he was reaching to get this guy. and mitt romney and his people did it, knowing, i'm sure that they were going to have to deal with this at some point. and now, they are trying to say paul ryan is on board with us, don't worry. but this is not just like a

generation ago, when george h.w. bush changed his pro-choice position to go along with ronald reagan. this is a much farther leap to the right that paul ryan represents. and how the romney campaign handles this and how indeed as cynthia points out, paul ryan handles it, is going to be very important over the next four days and could well affect that already existing gender gap that you're talking about. >> yeah, and i think romney's leaning toward ryan, i don't think ryan is going toward romney. >> i agree with that. >> the culture of this ticket is much more ryan. we're going to watch a ryan convention. not a romney convention. we'll say it up there. howard, cynthia, thank you for your passion and your thoughts tonight. coming up, the other republican embarrassment, walking on water, you might say. that's politico's report today that a group of republican freshmen went on what's called an alcohol-fueled dip in the sea of galilee, just weeks after

they forced the debt crisis. this is carry on congressman time. if that sounds like a celebration to you, by the way, you are not alone. one of the congressmen went skinny dipping in the holy water over there. we're going to talk about that coming up, which normally would have been our biggest joke. turns out to be second fiddle. plus, welfare fraud. not the kind you're used to hearing about, but those pro-romney ads. talking about a fraud, falsely claiming that the president's ended the work requirements for welfare. back to the welfare again. also, good-bye, no drama obama. hello, campaign tension. tensions inside the campaign of president obama, but bigger stuff in that coming up next. let me finish for tonight, with what a romney presidency would look like, if he means what he says. that's going to be pretty scary. this is "hardball." the place for politics. all multivitamins give me the basics. they claim to be complete. only centrum goes beyond. providing more than just the essential nutrients, so i'm at my best.

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no surprise considering the global financial catastrophe that happened during the 2008 election. well, a new gallup poll finds 56% of voters in swing states say they're not better off. but interestingly enough, they say they don't think they'll be any better off under mitt romney, should he win the election this november. 49% say they wouldn't be better off four years from now under a president romney. versus 44%, who say they would. and those numbers are roughly the same as voters predict under a second obama term. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] if you have yet to master the quiet sneeze... ♪ [ sneezes ] [ male announcer ] you may be an allergy muddler. try zyrtec®. it gives you powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® because zyrtec® starts working at hour 1 on the first day you take it. claritin® doesn't start working until hour 3. [ sneezes ] [ male announcer ] zyrtec®. love the air. join zyrtec® rewards. save up to $7 on zyrtec® products.

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listen to these happy progressive customers. i plugged in snapshot, and 30 days later, i was saving big on car insurance. with snapshot, i knew what i could save before i switched to progressive. the better i drive, the more i save. i wish our company had something this cool. you're not filming this, are you? aw! camera shy. snapshot from progressive. test-drive snapshot before you switch. visit progressive.com today. welcome back to "hardball." other than claire mccaskill, the people happiest about the todd akin story are a bunch of republican freshman who have been overshadowed by the akin foolishness, if you will. worse than foolishness. the biggest news story last summer was house republicans taking the country to the brian withing of default, as we covered on this show, by refusing to raise the debt ceiling. by the time they ended that, it

caused standard & poor's to lower america's credit rating. you think that would leave house members chasing the republican surprise, but a trip to israel funded days later were not taken that hard. politico reports that on august 18th, six congressmen on the trip took an alcohol-fueled post dinner dip in the sea of galilee, including one congressman that swam in the need. this coming on the same weekend on the akin comments is another black eye for republicans. i don't know what to make this, mark, i'm slow to jump on this, the other story was horrendous, this guy's attitude about women and their rights was beyond cave man. but this, they go swimming at night.

they go over to learn about the situation politically. they take a night off after drinking at dinner. they go swimming in galilee. what's wrong with this? what have i missed? >> well, let me take the opportunity to condemn as i did this morning, congressman akin's remarks unambiguously. important for all of us to speak out against those and the problems with them. on this story, the one thing that's happened since the politico story broke last night is that it appears there's no longer an fbi investigation. that's what most of the reporting suggests. that's good news, but the shoes are still left to drop. the congressman who went skinny dipping is playing it down. he said alcohol wasn't part of his motivation. he was only in the water for a few seconds. but the question is begged, why was eric cantor so unhappy? are there pictures of this? what actually took place that caused the unhappiness? what caused the fbi to at least look into it? i think until we see what happens there, it's certainly might imperil some of the members involved, but it could be a broader scandal that hurts the republican party. we just have to wait and see

more of the facts and i think some reporters will look into it despite the akindy verve shu di. >> here's eric cantor, who apparently that night or the next morning who -- he was on the trip, among 30 republicans, he left by thegalilee swim occurred. but plot coe said this, cantor was so upset about the antics, saying they were distracting from the mission of the trip. so i don't know what the distraction was, john heilemann, but i don't get it. i mean, i've been over there a number of times, i've been a trip sponsored by a pro-israeli group, jewish group like many people, they are very educational trips. they do show you a lot about the geography of the land over there, what they are facing in terms of the situation with palestinians. but i don't get it here exactly. what do you think is the story

here, what could be? >> well, i think a couple of things, chris. one is, obviously, one of the reasons that cantor is upset because for some religious people, christian and jewish alike, that the sea of galilee has a certain religious significance and importance to them, where jesus was to have walked on the water, for congressmen to go splashing around, is disrepresdisrespectf. joe scarborough, who has a lot of connections in the south, says this kind of thing will be passed around from pastor to pastor and will have a real affect. i think at a broader level, you've got a bunch of freshman congressmen who came into the republican party in 2010 who have this stance, which is that they were not part of washington. not part of typical washington. they were going to change the capitol in some fundamental way and this kind of thing, fooling around, drunken junkets overseas, doing this kind of

frivolous stuff, it kind of cuts against that image of seriousness. that's like a thing a caricature of an old washington hand would do and not the thing that a bunch of young, earnest bright reformers would bring to the capitol. >> i didn't know this, but young israelis or americans who go over there and love the state of israel, what it stands for, this swimming is very popular in the galilee, part of a ritual of growing up kind of thing. >> it may be that this is innocent, and that the facts as they've been presented create a misleading ill presentation. i go back to, though, the question of what was upsetting to eric cantor. if the reporting's right. what was upsetting to him about it? if it was something that was acceptable? then, i don't see why he would be upset. he's obviously one of the most prom innocent jewish-american politicians, probably the most prominent republican jewish politician in washington. and he knows the country well. if he was upset, the question's begged, why was eric cantor upset? >> well, one way to put this is that, just a couple of days

before, as i opened this segment, john and mark, and this country just went through a terribly negative experience, the inability of our legislators, especially the young tea party types like these guys, on the right, who come to congress, refusing to make any kind of deal or negotiate anything. instead of dealing with the debt ceiling crisis, instead of protecting the good will and the good faith and credit of the united states currency, they let that thing drag on and on to the point where it did embarrass us with a downgrade. and then, within days later, they are over there taking their clothes off and running around. they didn't go out for a swim with swim trunks, they went out to dinner and that took them into the sea of galilee. that might suggest inappropriate, not so much to the holy land, but to our national circumstances that week. >> well, yeah, chris. they had been doing something that a lot of people felt -- holding the country hostage during that period of time, around the debt ceiling debacle.

and i think this would be true of either party. those are very serious times. just an image of frivolity here and lack of seriousness that i think if you heard that a bunch of democratic congressman had been engaged in some high stakes gamble where the country's credit worthyness was at stake and they got drunk at a washington nationals game and got drunk and peeing on a fire hydrant, you'd get the same problem. it's kind of demeaning especially in a time when these people have been engaged in some serious and economically dangerous business. >> i like your imagery. anyway, one thing i do like about junkets that was missing here, mark, is that you called them junkets, they do cost money, but what normally happens on these trips, if they are bipartisan and if they are fact-finding, you find yourself -- i've been on a couple of these. you get on a trip with republican people, moderate to conservative, they get on to you and you have conversations over

the space of a couple of days. you find a lot of common ground and things get done. here was a totally partisan trip. it serves no purpose, if it all does is send people away to agree with each other. thank you very much, mark halperin and john heilemann. up next, christie o'donnell is back. and she has a new way of describing herself. i'm not sure you're going to buy this one. you might have bought the witch. you won't buy this. one is "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] when this hotel added aflac

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his mind. and it's tough to forget her "i'm not a witch ad" which is now the stuff of legends. o'donnell was on cnn today and in the midst of criticizing the president's, quote, marxist policie policies, she had a new way of describing herself. >> hear all these stats and figures that policy wonks like me hear. we feed on this stuff. i believe marxist -- >> why do you think -- >> so, you're a policy wonk now? when did that happen? >> well, i've been involved in politics for 20 years. >> policy. policy. >> political junkie. >> i love soledad o'brien. and think of this. christine o'donnell policy wonk will be headlining an event troublemaker

fest to coincide with the convention. next, larry bailey, a retired member of the us navy s.e.a.l.s founded an organization to attack president obama has an - anti-military. but he confessed another motive. "i have to admit that i'm a birther. if there were a jury of 12 good men and women and the evidence were placed before them, there would be no question barack obama was not born where he was and is not who he says he is." well, i wonder who would comprise that jury. this might be the tweet of the weekend in regards to congressman todd akin's unfortunate comment that women have some what of blocking pregnancy in cases of what he called legitimate rape. well, the word from nate silver of "the new york times." quote, "is it possible to win a senate race with 0% of the women's vote?" that's my quote of the week. up next, mitt romney keeps pushing the false line that president obama ended work requirements for welfare. he's not going to let the truth get in the way of a good attack ad. anyway. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

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i'm mill list is a ray berger. here's what's happening pafrt of alabama's immigration law that makes public schools check the citizenship status of new students. the home of the masters tournament will no longer be all male. former secretary of state condoleezza rice and a financier have accepted invitations to become the first female members. and she's being remembered as a legend, bee their and true original. phyllis diller died today. chef was 95. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." if todd akin insists on staying

in that race out in missouri, he will have accomplished two things for democrats. possibly mortally wounded candidate, he may hand the democrats a senate seat that until yesterday they figured to lose. so, how will the democrats attack and how will republicans react? todd, buddy, the ball is in your court. would you keep this guy? despite what he said? >> i agree with chairman john cornyn who said he ought to step aside. these comments, not only are they outrageous and reprehensible, but from a purely political strategic standpoint, this is a massive distraction and as long as he remains the republican nominee, that distraction is going to continue. >> but tony perkins of the family research council, one of

your close political allies, says he's fine. he should stay. doesn't that influence your opinion in his favor? i mean, your cultural allies on the right like this guy. the way he thinks. doesn't that matter to your coalition? >> they do like him, but you know, there are other candidates who are running in missouri who are also popular with cultural conservatives and at this point, they would probably have a better chance of winning. >> okay, let's go back to steve. for the easiest question i'll ever put to you. don't you wish he stays in the race? >> oh, my god, i pray that he stays in the race and i think he'd be a fine candidate in the fall for the republicans to go with. >> well, what do you think is behind his thinking? because i don't want to laugh at this, because i think there's something profoundly frightening in this sense. this guy talks about legitimate rape as if there aren't people really raped, because of what? they weren't physically overwhelmed, they weren't

knifed, they weren't physically assaulted? what is he trying to get at, do you think? get into the mind of todd akin when he says legitimate rape. what's he talking about? >> well, it's difficult, chris, to get into the mind of an imbicile or into the mind of someone looking for a brain that might not be there. it's appalling and almost impossible for anyone to understand what it was that he could have possibly been thinking. what's amazing is, if you look at mitt romney's statements over time, last night, initially, his statement was, we don't agree with him. today, after cornyn and other folks strongly denounced the comments, romney decided he needed to take a harder stand. i think it's interesting to watch the political hot potato this person has become, todd akin, for the republican party. and to see what happens over the next 24 hours. by 5:00 tomorrow, he'll have to decide whether or not he's going to stay in the race. i think he'll be gone by 5:01. >> let me ask you about paul

ryan. he probably won't be gone, todd. and my question about todd ak akin -- paul ryan, he is the cosponsor of a bill called the personhood amendment, which says you're a person after conception. if that's the case, you're basically murdering somebody if you participate in any kind of abortion or use of an iud. now, the question is, he's totally against any kind of abortion under any circumstances. isn't he basically the same as todd akin? >> come on. >> what's the difference -- a guy who says it's murder if you have an abortion or a guy who says there's no such thing as having a pregnancy after a rape. they both deny the need for any kind of alleviation or liberalism in term of a woman's right to choose. >> to conflate what todd akin has said, with the idea that

women somehow biologically can fore stall pregnancy if they are raped, that is crazy talk. but to conflate that with the pro-life movement, with people who believe that abortion is wrong, that is ridiculous, it doesn't exist. paul ryan and -- >> what does paul ryan believes? what is his position? if he's against abortion, how does it differ? and if he believes in personhood, doesn't matter how you become a person, by his standard, you still can't have an abortion. that's what he says. >> there are a lot of people who believe that abortion is wrong regardless of the circumstances of the pregnancy. but that has nothing to do with these crazy comments from todd akin. you -- to conflate them, that's trying to take this mess that's happened in missouri, this horrible thing and stick it onto romney. >> i don't have any problems

conflating, because it's the same thing. let me go to steve. if you say a person's a person, under the law, after conception, you can't have an abortion in any circumstance. that would be murder. once you get to this step of personhood, you are getting right into the common law notion of what a murder. >> right. and i think the personhood amendment is not something most would support. or think is a very good idea. i do think todd raises a legitimate point by saying that when todd akin talks about a legitimate rape, that's sort of a different thing, he's a nut for a different reason. i do think that what it does here is, it opens up a conversation about paul ryan's views on reproductive rights and issues that affect women, that mitt romney and paul ryan didn't want to have. the point you are making, chris, which is absolutely right, prior to yesterday and prior to today when the romney campaign clarified, paul ryan and todd akin, on the issue of

reproductive rights had exactly the same position. today, the romney campaign says that they don't support -- they don't oppose abortion rights in the case of rape. that's a different position than paul ryan held yesterday when he held the same position that todd akin held. >> and i do think the republican party is pointing itself in the direction of paul ryan's thinking, not the, well, lack of thinking of mitt romney on most occasions. anyway, thank you, todd harris. i think i was nice to you tonight. anyway, thank you, todd and steve. relatively. up next, good-bye, no drama obama. remember no drama obama? a new book reports on the tensions. i don't think it's a big deal. i think there's bigger stories in this new e-webook that's com out. it's got new stuff in it. i'm fascinated with that. this is "hardball," the place for politics. so, what's the problem?

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we're back. no one would down play how hard a test president obama's re-election is going to be, at least not me and the candidate himself. according to a new e-book out today, president obama privately had doubts about his chances and foresaw a nightmare scenario where not only romney took the white house in the election in november, but republicans won both houses of congress, and two liberal supreme court justices left, paving the way for a 7-2 conservative majority in the supreme court. according to this new account by glen thrush, obama is also motivated motivated, in part, by a general disdain for romney, whom he believes stands for nothing.

but the book reports that internal don flikt has dogged the obama team this time around and the campaign official suspects joe biden is eyeing the possibility of a presidential run in 2016. what this all means for the president's chances, here we go. glen thrush is author of the new book "obama's last stand." and evan thomas is a contributor to the politico playbook series itself, which is con criminal g i kron chronicling the 2012 race. let me start you with, glen, the possibility that obama's failure to get re-elected could cause a sweep, cost the white house, the congress, the house, and the supreme court, at least long-term perpetuity. >> yeah, i mean, this is his fierce urgency now, chris. i mean, the president really has a sense in addition, as you said, to not really liking r romney personally. he feels he's the only thing standing between, you know, the united states and sort of the

future health of the country, both economically and morally, and this tremendous wave of corporate spending and conservative judicial activism that romney represents. and he's told people point blank that's his big nightmare. and the other thing is that he's worried does a v-shaped recovery in 2013 and mitt romney would get credit for that. >> you covered a lot of campaigns and watched politics over the years. do you think skirmishing in the campaign or hatred of the opponent are new phenomena? you may not like the person running against them, but in november, you really have a problem with them. you can't win. >> that's true. it varies. i mean, in 2008, obama was pretty respectful of mccain. this time around, he doesn't feel the same respect for romney. so it does very little. but your basic point is true,

you have to get revved up. of course, you're going to be angry. the miracle is how well our system works. after the 60 elections, nixon thinks kennedy has stolen the election and is gracious and doesn't contest the results. think of gore in 2000. >> today, i don't think we would get to that happy ending. evan, you started this one on biden. i'm fascinated by biden. i'm hearing buzzes that he told hillary he's gone ig going to r. what does it tell you about biden's hopes? >> i think the white house was taken aback by how independent biden is. i mean, he's mostly a good soldier, but he's not always a good soldier, and he has a big mouth, but he also has big ambitions. he's going to be pretty old next time around, but he's an ambitious guy. >> has joe biden decided to run for president in 2016 even if

obama doesn't get re-elected. >> i don't know he's decided, but i had obama people say to me he would be stupid not to consider it. the vice presidency still has some currency. and biden has had a pretty -- with the exception of all of the gaffes and kind of the saturday night live moments, a pretty good run of it. as you know, he has always had a first-class staff. people like ron klain, et cetera. so he's got a lot of people. >> they're good people. i know it's a first-rate staff. are they ambitious for him to run? does he have a team ready to run next time? >> i think the issue, i'm not sure he has a team to run, but the twinkle in his eye, and in terms of biden's jumping the gun on the gay marriage announcement in may, which really ticked off the west wing, there was a suspicion that they played into that. biden told them privately, according to my sources, that

the president should not come out for gay marriage because it would kill him in the swing states and then they turn on the tv and he's telling david gregory just the opposite. david plouffe was angry with him, obama was angry for a time but they smoothed it over. we focus on the externals. he's making noise internally. >> what are you hearing, gentlemen, about hillary clinton and his issue? is she responding to the possibility of having to go up against biden next time? are they in that mentality they might have to run against each other? kn any word on that. >> let me defer to glenn on that. >> have you heard anything new about secty clinton at least have the intention of being the next democratic nominee for president? >> i don't want to incur the wrath of philipp or the hillary people. i covered her in 2008 for a long ta ti

time. her hands are full with the current job and she's pretty tired right now. she's been crisscrossing the globe. i don't think it would come down to a biden/hillary thing. you recall in 2008 how deferential biden was to hillary. if hillary wants it, my guts says biden wouldn't go for it. >> thank you very much. i like the thinking there. thank you, glenn, thank you, evan thomas. the book is called obama's last stanltd. >> when we return, let me finish with what you get if you vote for romney. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. rything about this country! including prilosec otc. you know one pill each morning treats your frequent heartburn so you can enjoy all this great land of ours has to offer like demolition derbies. and drive thru weddings. so if you're one of those people who gets heartburn and then treats day after day, block the acid with prilosec otc.. and don't get heartburn in the first place.

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let me finish tonight with again the stakes this november. you can vote your impulse in this election. you can say, the economy is not growing the way it should. let's change presidents, or you can look at the choices and decide who is the best bet to lead the kind of country you believe in, that includes but isn't limited to the kind of economic growth you would like to see this month or next. the bigger choice is getting heftier by the minute. you vote for obama, you get a second start affwhat he's been trying to do, smart use of government action to stimulate a fair, safer america. you vote for romney and get a slew of things, him, the him he's created of himself over the last few years. if you take romney, the candidate, at his word, he's a dedicated disciple of the right, tax breaks for the wealthy, no deals with democrats on cutting

the deficit, no abortion rights, a war footing with iran, millitance toward china, a cold relationship with russia. what the hard right has wanted for years. you also get bachmann and her loony notions, and of democrat anti-american types sifting through the cloak rooms, the equally loony knuckle draggers, the people who hate science like this character akin with his theories about rape and inpregnation. waiting for another independent suit to fill. with the bushes, they had one for the first, two for the second. w. was much more emptier as suits go. the point is getting romney, the dead kalted right-wing man for hire is one thing. but we're reminded again tonight with this character from missouri and his legitimate rape gospel that all is not right in nut