all right, time for a couple e-mails, john. what do you got. >> i got linda. just chilling in my trapper my . >> yes. if the whole binder thing out of that debate does one thing, it's brought trapper keeper back a little bit in some of the tweets and jokes and stuff happening online. i had one myself. i believe it was 1986, hu hulkamania was running wild on my school supplies. one more. >> christine, up early getting ready. my brother kevin is a police sergeant here. you guys will love boca. >> kevin, we may need your services, my good man, especially if we bring donny deutsch with us. next monday and tuesday 5:30 a.m., 3 1/2 hours monday and tuesday as we preview and review monday night's third and final presidential debate. we will see you in boca. come down and hang out with us on monday. "morning joe" starts right now.

you've heard of the new deal, ohio. you've heard of the fair deal. mitt romney's trying to sell you a sketchy deal. but we're not buying it. we know -- we know better because this is the same sketchy deal that we were sold back in the previous administration. we tried it. it didn't work. >> now, i have to be honest with you. i love these debates. you know, these things are great. i think it's interesting that the president still doesn't have an agenda for a second term. don't you think that it's time for him to finally put together a vision of what he'd do in the next four years if he were elected? i mean, he's got to come up with that over this weekend because there's only one debate left on monday. >> all right. good morning, everybody. wow. it is thursday, october 18th.

welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have msnbc and "time" magazine senior political analyst, mark halperin. hello, halperin. former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. good to have you on board as well. >> morning, mika. >> we have new polls this morning that are very interesting. and i see how alex has stacked this. and we just started fighting. and alex doesn't really fight. about this whole binder thing. how is that not a lie? can we go there, halperin? when you say you sought out, and then it turns out that they were brought to you, that's not the truth, correct? >> i just don't think that's what this campaign should be about. >> right. >> i would say that about either side. >> what, us calling out facts shouldn't be about that? all right. we'll get to it. but i will totally disagree. it appears with everybody at this table. >> explain what you mean that's important. >> at the debate the other

night, mitt romney talks about how there weren't enough women, and so he sought them out. >> right. >> and then binders of women were brought to him, which is a whole funny thing but, you know, that's not true. >> i think we should have a spirited debate in the campaign about which of these candidates would do more for all americans including women and look at their policy proposals and their records. >> right. >> but i just don't think parsing individual statements said live during a debate -- >> well, that was a prepared story. he was prepared to be asked about women and told that story and made up. >> your point is he just told a lie. >> yes. >> and there's no reason not to call him out for telling a lie. >> i believe that's actually our job. >> tt he didn't, in fact, actively seek out women. >> no. >> that absolutely should be pointed out. but the reason why -- >> by the way, look, if you want to go deeper into it, it takes you all the way till you're running for governor to realize that there's not enough women in the work force and nobody in your family or in your life has expressed to you that there's a

concern here that you only had to wait till it was politically -- but then it turns out it wasn't even his decision to look for more women to fill his offices with, but it was actually organizations of women that put together these two binders and gave it to both candidates and then presented them to both candidates. that's just totally different than what he said at the debate. and that's not a slip of the tongue or an oops, i kind of misstated it. that was a really hand-fisted -- >> that's a ridiculous argument to make. seriously, the obama people have the binders, the binders. >> no, i'm good if you want to talk about what the obama people have. >> no, the president's coming out talking about binders. this is an act of desperation. i know the president says at the beginning he only wants people around him that he knew before he got there. a lot of other businesspeople when they have to fill positions, they say bring me the best. bring me everybody you have. >> right. >> and they're turning this into

a huge issue. >> because he didn't do that. because actually, the binders of women were given to both candidates. he didn't seek them out. he didn't ask for them. it's -- >> i hope -- >> it's too bad. >> -- the obama administration and i hope liberals focus on bindergate throughout the campaign. and if they do, because they have nothing else to talk about, they will find what we found at the msnbc -- did you see the msnbc focus group? >> yeah. >> the women that were saying that they, after the second debate, were turning to mitt romney? >> mm-hmm. >> keep talking about binders. mitt romney's fine. >> actually, you know, we could go, then, if you want to talk about women, whether mitt romney would actually sign the lilly ledbetter act into law or equal pay, there are so many other issues. i'm personally bringing this up because i cannot believe he told that story to the american people and prepared it for the american people. and it turns out not to be true. >> well, again -- >> so that's just -- >> if you want to focus on

this -- >> forget it being completely focused on women, it just happens to be a little bit insulting that he had to make up a story about trying to help women because he couldn't find one on his own. that's kind of a problem. >> no, that's ridiculous, mika. that is absolutely ridiculous that he couldn't find a woman on his own. this shows how desperate democrats are right now. >> no, this is me actually responding to what happened. >> it's ridiculous, if this concerns you, i guarantee you this is your concern, that's not the concern of a waitress that is trying to keep her two jobs in youngstown, ohio, right now -- >> actually, it is. >> no, who are actually right now moving to mitt romney because they don't think president obama has a strong enough record on the economy. >> well, we can argue obama's record on the economy as well. and we could probably have a very spirited debate about that. by the way, women have done better under the obama economy than men. >> then argue that instead of bindergate. bindergate. >> you know what? but i do think it connects to the waitress, and it connects to the middle class because i think

women who hear this story as well as a few others in terms of legislation, that mitt romney would or would not support, i think women feel like the middle class. like does he get sinus >> yeget us? does he get us? you need to change a story about a bipartisan group that gave you names of very accomplished women to hire because you didn't have one of your own? it's not good. >> keep talking about binders and mitt romney will win in a landslide. >> beyond the binder, i thought that was more broadly a terrible answer. >> horrible. >> he said he wanted to give women shorter hours so they could get home to cook dinner. it showed a view of women that i think some people will not accept. >> he was talking about flex time. and i can tell you that there are women across america who work for companies that have great foresight. joe's company obviously has great foresight. they have flex hours. >> well, that's good. i'm glad he's for flex time because we'll be at work less since we're paid less.

>> whatever. >> according to the latest gallup daily tracking poll -- >> let's see how all this is working with women out in middle america. >> i think these polls are really interesting. i don't get the gallup poll. >> no, you don't get the polls that also show that mitt romney's doing as well with women as men. >> but -- >> or as obama. >> there are not swing state state-by-state tracking polls that say that. that is one overall gallup poll. >> no, the gallup poll in the battleground states actually showed that mitt romney is now in a tie. >> mm-hmm. i find that to be -- >> with barack obama among women. >> -- perplexing. >> because women are thinking for themselves and not going with the liberal line that they must be hyper-obsessed on abortion? >> i didn't bring it up. it's eight past the hour. mitt romney is leading president obama 51%-45%. know that this poll was taken in the days leading up to tuesday

night's debate. according to a newm marquette poll, president obama is ahead one point after trailing by 11 points last month. and yesterday on the campaign trail, both candidates tried to gain ground with women voters. take a listen. >> i've got to tell you, we don't have to collect a bunch of binders to find qualified, talented, driven young women ready to learn and teach in these fields right now. and when young women graduate, they should get equal pay for equal work. that should be a simple question to answer. when governor romney was asked about it, his campaign said we'll get back to you. that shouldn't be a complicated question. equal pay for equal work. i want my daughters paid just like somebody else's sons are paid for the same job. that's straightforward. >> this president has failed america's women. they have suffered in terms of getting jobs. they've suffered in terms of falling into poverty. and as i go across the country and ask women, what can i do to

help? what they speak about day in and day out is help me find a good job or a good job for my spouse. and help my kid. make sure my children have a bright future. better schools and better job opportunities. that's what the women of america are concerned about, and the answers are coming from us and not from barack obama. >> wow! >> see, he understands. >> yeah, he does. >> he understands. and can i just say also, i value you here. >> yeah, i can see that. >> at this workplace, and can i tell you i never had to bring in a stack of binders to find you. >> no. >> and to notice your work. >> mark halperin -- >> it should be "morning mika." i say that all the time. should it be "morning joe" or "morning mika"? >> "morning mika." >> let's see, i can think of, like, four or five major parts of the health care legislation that's great for women. i'll leave social issues aside because that apparently makes

joe uncomfortable. nobody on the romney campaign can confirm whether or not mitt romney would have signed the lilly ledbetter act. and in fact, there's all indications that he may not have. republicans, as we learned last round, don't support equal pay. so i'm not sure what he's talking about out on the campaign trail. what he's talking about. and by the way, if you look at unemployment as it pertains to women, it's less than men under the entire obama administration in terms of the economy. do we want to talk about the economy? does anybody want to go there and look at the data? >> totally want to talk about the economy, totally want to talk about issues and positions and records but don't want to talk about binders and don't juan want to talk about a candidate in the debate getting the facts wrong about something that doesn't matter as much as a lot of other things. it's right to point out when the candidates say things wrong, but the issues are about who will be better for america, not about parsing every little thing. the president said a lot of things in the debate that weren't totally accurate either. but the binder thing is what's

wrong with our politics. it's like talking about big bird. it's like talking about you didn't build it. and for the last three weeks i'd just like to talk about issues and which candidate would be better for america, just for three weeks. >> and he's only saying that because he loves america, okay? willie, would you like to chime in on bindergate? >> wow! >> i don't have a whole lot to say on bindergate. >> why not? what is wrong with you people? >> steve, the president does, though. he's got this binder thing, and he thinks it shows that the president's insensitive about women. >> romney. >> romney. >> the binder is just a symbol, and i agree with mark. all that's happening here obviously is we're having now a fight for women. women are becoming the battleground to see who's going to win this election. romney's made some progress with women. he's got to fet gutter. so they're each using everything they can on either side to try to do that, and that includes binders, but i think the overarching issue is the one that mika is sort of referring to which is should romney be

attractive to women? should women feel comfortable that romney is looking after their needs or not? it has nothing to do with binders. it has to do with all of his policies from lilly ledbetter to everything else. women have to make a decision about whether they'll be for romney or not. i think that's where it's being fought right now. >> i think it's strange we still talk in such broad strokes about women. imagine talking about what men voters want. women are more than one little set of social issues. women have huge concerns just like everybody else has them. >> and we were out in l.a. the past couple days, and everywhere we went, people in the business, all they talked about -- and i understand, abortion is a critical issue for those who are pro-life, for those who are pro-choice, i understand that. but you go around l.a., everybody, you go around manhattan, and they talk abortion, abortion, abortion.

how could any woman vote for -- and these are people that aren't necessarily on the front lines of abortion. it's just this issue that they blow up so much. that you just sit there going, are you crazy? >> but it's not just abortion, joe. women are more liberal than men on a whole series of issue. >> i'm talking especially the media. that somehow abortion takes on this position that it doesn't -- that it does not translate to middle america. i talk about the waitresses. i could talk about the single who's a schoolteacher in des moines who's raising three kids on her own. you could talk about the woman who -- there are 1,000 different issues, but we really do boil it down, and that's why the mainstream media has such a blind spot. i've always said their biggest blind spot's on social issues. they just can't understand why a woman who believes that her kids would have a better shot at a good education because she would have a better job would be

stupid enough to vote for mitt romney instead of barack obama. and that person making that vote's not the stupid person. it's the one that's seeing it through this ideological lens because when americans vote, they're practical. you're frustrated, though -- and i think you should explain why you're frustrated. you've worked, obviously, with the white house on some women's issues. you're frustrated, obviously, when you see these polls that show the gap's closing, and you do want to know because you are close to it. and it's been in the press that you've worked on the white house council for women. >> i've also written a book on concern about equal pay. you can mention i've worked with the white house a few times. it means a know a lot about what the white house has done and the comment about binders just like comments about foreign policy or the economy, the comment about binders is representative of something big as it pertains to women. women care about jobs and their families.

and this administration has worked to make sure loans get to women, that they have access to jobs, that they work on getting equal pay for all women because they care about bringing home the bacon for their families. the health care legislation. women now have preventative care covered so they can go to work and be healthy and take care of their families. their kids are covered till age 26. all of these are family and women issues. and then when mitt romney talks about needing a binder, whether he asked for it or it was presented to him needing a binder to understand that he needs to hire more women, it shows he's completely out of touch and possibly misleading in front of millions of american people about exactly what he did when he was running for governor. i would think he'd go over his facts and know a little bit more about how that happened. but perhaps he was just wrong. >> you mean like joe biden totally screwing up the chain of events in benghazi again and ignoring -- i mean, these things happen in debates.

>> okay. >> as far as the binder situation goes, steve, maybe i'm off here, but when he said i asked people to bring binders in, i mean, that reminded me of, you know, something eisenhower would do, which eisenhower had a rule, if i know you, you're not going to work for me. bring me in the best people that run the biggest companies and put them in binders and throw them on my desk, and i'm going to go through them, and we're going to get the right people there. i saw jeb bush do this where people would always say this person needs this job. and this person needs that job. and jeb bush, early in his administration, said stop sending me white guys. there are more than white guys out there. bring me the names of qualified hispanics. bring me the names of qualified african-americans. bring me the names of qualified women. stop sending me names of white guys. we got our fill. i understand that type of leader. >> but he didn't do that. that would be leadership.

>> that's why i think -- that's kind of what i thought mitt romney was doing, but we're still talking binders. >> so let's get off the binders quickly. what i think mitt romney did with the binders is something that's pretty classic corporate america. >> right. >> you basically say to yourself, i need "x" and such. you say to some younger guy, go g get me or a list or a binder. what the obama people are trying to say is he should have known who the women were. he shouldn't have needed a binder to help them find women. getting past the binders, it still comes back to the question of this fight over women and whether romney is going to succeed in holding together the progress he seems to have made among women. and i take your point, willie, that women care about a lot more and your point, then, abortion, but i do think -- and mika is better equipped to speak to this -- when you start talking about transvaginal ultrasounds, when you start talking about hearing todd akin vote, when you start talking about repealing

roe versus wade, there are things that cross the line for women and a lack of trust toward romney on a bunch of this stuff. >> i think what mika is saying is that mitt romney distorted the chain of events. >> he didn't ask for the names. >> he didn't ask for them, but a group called nascap came to them. >> he was saying what you've just presented a leader could do, get me some names. bet me the best and the brightest women. that's actually not what happened. >> i feel bad now. >> yeah, you should. >> mark? >> look, there's differences between the candidates -- >> you think we should be talking about binders? i just want to be clear. >> i don't understand why you don't think this is a story. >> there's differences and the absence should be scrutinized from his statements in the debate. but to characterize romney as unconcerned about romney or to say that mitt romney is insensitive or he's trapped in some time warp, the story he told about beth meyers needed to get home to her kids does not mean that he doesn't understand that women have -- different women have different workplace

needs. it should be a spirited debate about what his positions are. but to talk about the details of what he said in particular in the debate and to have that characterize everything he thinks about women, it's just not right for the country. and again, i say it whether it was a republican or a democrat. i'd say the same thing on the other side when they make a big deal about things the president has said that they take out of context or they blow up. this is, as steve said, this is the whole election now is trying to appeal to women voters to some extent. >> let me just say, mark halperin, we have a reason to feel really good here, and i'll tell you why because alex tells me that e-mails are flooding in right now. mika, you're about to get yours. alex, i understand the e-mails are flooding in 10-1 on this issue. huh? mark? look at us. it's about us, right? >> this one crystallizes it. back off, "morning joe" boys. mika's point is relevant. >> there you go. >> that's not surprising. >> love michelle obama. >> yeah, she's great.

anyway, 10-1 in your favor, so we don't know what we're talking about. we'll see what happens on election day. >> we'd better hurry up. i have to leave early. i have to go make dinner. >> can i ask really quickly since we've been talking about binders for 20 minutes now -- >> wow! it's been 20 minutes. >> yeah, it's sick. can i just ask really quickly, a day and a half, two days later, it takes a while sometimes, what's your gut on the debate? how is it impacting the race? >> well, i don't think we'll know until we saw polls. we had that gallup daily tracking, but that didn't include the debate. >> what's your gut? >> my gut is that the president won. if he was ahead before the first debate and pulled even because of mitt romney's performance in the second, if feels like he inched ahead a little bit. but we don't know until we see the numbers. >> mark? >> i don't know. >> you don't have any gut? >> my gut is that what happens the rest of this week and beginning of next week will matter more than the debate. but certainly the president stopped a huge erosion. >> yeah, he did. what do you think?

>> i think the president stopped sherman's march to atlanta. i think he stopped the momentum. >> mika? >> i still think the president did quite well. why are you asking? what? >> no, i just -- i just -- i think -- i don't think it changed much. i think it stopped the bleeding. and i think it's almost like romney was going, going, going and it just stopped. and it stopped right at a point where they're basically tied. tied in wisconsin. romney's way ahead in this gallup daily tracking poll. i think the battleground states are all close. if he was down three points in ohio before, he's probably down three points in ohio now. >> mark and i were just talking about the real clear averages. if you look at every swing state, it's remarkable, it's 4 0.4% to about 2.5% in important states. >> although in places like ohio, obama still has the edge when you do the math. >> a slight edge, right? mark? >> housing is up in september by

15%. >> good news. >> which is a lot more than they thought. >> good news, mika. >> we'll just put that away and not talk about that. >> we love good economic news. >> right. okay. >> boy. >> i don't get -- i really don't get -- am i -- >> coming up on "morning joe," caroline kennedy and i open up about, well, fighting for women's rights. she'll also talk about her father, president john f. kennedy, in a new book. she'll be here with audio from inside jfk's oval office. also former clinton press secretary, that's important, dee dee meyers and i will talk about women's rights and what she and i can do to fight for them. also "time" managing editor rick stengel will take us inside this week's new issue, and i hope there's a lot on equal pay. up next, the top stories in this morning's "politico playbook." but first, here's a guy who is stuck, mika, in 1952. >> oh, god.

>> when it comes to women's rights, bill karins with a check on the forecast. he just asked me to do that. >> you wouldn't believe what he did in the hall. >> i held the door for you. i was a gentleman. >> and gave me a little pat. >> a little pat? >> is he a cupper? >> i'll talk to you about cuppers. >> okay. go ahead, cupper. >> they are in this building, and they run rampant. >> oh, my lord! what? >> i want names. not mine. >> you can't handle names. >> high-profile cuppers is my specialty. i'm writing a book. >> good morning, everyone. fascinating first 24 minutes. here's what we're dealing with in the northern plains. big, huge storm continues to affect many people. we're seeing the gusty winds, the rain. you saw what happened to the baseball games yesterday in st. louis and detroit. that storm is going to linger today. st. louis should be fine, but that yankee game in detroit could have issues with on and off rain. east coast, you look okay this morning but later today those storms will arrive in the carolinas and virginia. just be prepared for airport problems today, especially

chicago up to minneapolis. we could get gusty winds, even kansas city and st. louis could have minor problems. definitely some bumpy flights through the middle of the country. late today those storms will roll to the eastern seaboard, but that will be after dark. washington, d.c., down to richmond. and a heads up for everyone in new england tomorrow morning at this time, i expect heavy rain to be moving up through new jersey, new york city, up into areas of new england. and that's where the travel trouble will be on your friday. the rest of the country looks rather nice today. no problems in the west. texas looks pretty good. and just a few storms down there in miami. once again, the heads up tomorrow morning at this time, some major trouble with heavy rain in areas even possibly like washington, d.c. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. 4g lte is the fastest.

so, which superfast 4g lte service would you choose, based on this chart ? don't rush into it, i'm not looking for the fastest answer. obviously verizon. okay, i have a different chart. going that way, does that make a difference ? look at verizon. it's so much more than the other ones. so what if we just changed the format altogether ? isn't that the exact same thing ? it's pretty clear. still sticking with verizon. verizon. more 4g lte coverage than all other networks combined.

all right. 28 past the hour. let's take a look at the "morning papers." "the new york times," a 21-year-old college student is charged with trying to detonate a van carrying what he believed were explosives. next to the federal reserve building in manhattan. authorities say the man came to the u.s. on a student visa in january for the specific purpose of launching a terror attack. police say he even took classes in cybersecurity before trying to contact what he thought were al qaeda operatives who turned out to be undercover agents with the fbi. >> whoops! i hate when that happens. "the wall street journal," rebel fighters have obtained heat-seeking shoulder-fired missiles. those weapons have the potential to dramatically reshape the conflict. this on unverified video appears to show a downed syrian helicopter, one of four aircraft brought down this week. u.s. officials have long feared the heavy arms could end up in the arms of anti-american militias and even terrorists. >> back to "new york times," new

york city mayor michael bloomberg will have a new influence on national politics. he's launching his own super pac using millions of his own money. bloomberg says the fund will support moderate candidates in various state and local and congressional races who have shown a willingness to work in a bipartisan fashion. >> could you ask the mayor to give us some money? >> yeah, you've got to run for some pac money. >> unless you work in louisiana. "the detroit news," after years of promises that electric cars would end the nation's reliance on oil, sales have barely gotten off the ground. this is distressing. ford motor company, for example, sold only 228 focus electric cars in september. and earlier this week, a one, two, three systems which won a quarter billion dollars in stimulus money to make electric car batteries declared bankruptcy. you know what? it's depressing. and it's happened to the volt.

it's just taking a while for these electric cars to come off the ground. >> from our parade of papers, "the chicago tribune" in what's being called a landmark study, a report showing taking multivitamins reduce the risk of cancer 8% among middle-aged and older men. the result comes as a surprise because previous studies of individual vitamins offered mixed results in terms of chronic diseases. >> i'll have to look at that study. you know i always thought those things were just a huge waste of time. >> me, too. me, too. you have to eat well. >> how about flintstone's chewables? >> i have three of those every day. you wanted talk about the electric car story. we'd love for it to work, but people just aren't buying these. >> we'd all love for it to work but it doesn't make economic sense. you can buy a chevy volt, you'll get a $7500 tax credit and have a car with roughly the performance of a car that costs $22,000. it's for people who truly

believe -- it's important to have these as a way to get the technology to improve and improve, but when we were doing our numbers for general motors and projecting out five years, we assume nothing from the volt. nothing. >> and the thing is, the market's especially not going to work over the next five years, most likely, because gas prices -- we're finding more and more gas across the midwest, natural gas exploration is going to be way up. i mean, we're going to -- we've got a new energy revolution coming our way over the next ten years, and a lot of it's by old traditional sources. >> well, this tension, right, the better you do with old traditional sources, the harder it is to introduce new ones, then of course when you have a problem with your old sources, suddenly everybody wants the new ones. it's part of not having a consistent energy policy, quite frankly. >> let's go to politico now. >> for a look at the playbook, the executive editor, jim vandehei. morning. >> morning.

how are you? >> we've been focus using on the president ideal election. we don't want to let the senate race go by. 23 democratic seats vulnerable, perhaps, up for grabs, defending. what's the feeling right now among republicans about a senate takeover? >> we've got a great piece up on the site right now that takes a look at why republicans broadly are frustrated that they think they, once again, might blow an opportunity to win control of the senate. in the last election in 2010, they lost delaware, nevada and colorado because the primary process gave them somebody who was way too conservative to win in those states. they worry that that same dynamic once again is going to hurt them in this race. in missouri, it gave them todd akin who looks like he can no longer win that seat. tommy thompson emerged in wisconsin but only after a very, very brutal primary process. in all these cases, it's because the establishment republicans are not stepping in like establishment democrats do and

try to get the most electable candidate in these races so they can win states that are hard to win. if you have hard-line conservatives or hard-line liberals running in them. >> so where do you put the odds at this point? if some people say it's less than 50/50, what does it look like three week as head of election day? >> i think it's way less than 50/50 at this point. that's kind of shocking if you thought of where we were six months ago, largely because maine looks almost unwinnable. missouri looks almost unwinnable. states like north dakota that looked like they were going to be slam dunks for republicans look much more difficult today than they did six months ago. so i think it's a lot harder for republicans to win control of the senate. i will say, i think in some of these races where they are veritable toss-ups, virginia or massachusetts, i do think the presidential race could tilt those races. it's kind of hard to see a ticket splitter going for, say, mitt romney in virginia but also going for kaine or the opposite in massachusetts.

>> so is claire mccaskill getting some separation now in missou missouri? >> yeah. republicans don't even want to put money into the race anymore. they think it's unwinnable, and she is a candidate who should lose by all measures. her popularity's low. it's a state republican should win. they elected an unelectable guy. >> yes, they did. jim vandehei, thanks so much. coming up next, as if yankee fans didn't have enough reason to be unhappy with a-rod, now team sources, yes, people within the yankees' organization, confirming that story about a-rod getting phone numbers in the stands. >> it happens. it happens. the guy was taken out. what do you want him to do? sit on the bench and go go, team, go! >> we'll hear from a-rod himself about that story and highlights in sports next. [ male announcer ] from our nation's networks... ♪ ...to our city streets... ♪ ...to skies around the world...

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all right. >> we're allowed to talk about sports. >> horse racing. >> i need to get coffee, so why don't you all talk about sports. >> a-rod. >> turning on a-rod bad. >> the team, everybody. we'll get to that in just a second, but there was a ball game, the nlcs in st. louis, cardinals and giants, series tied at 1-1 coming into game three. third inning, giants have a 1-0 lead, but matt carpenter, the reserve, who had just come off the bench to replace carlos beltran who left the game with an injured knee takes a hanging slider out of the joint off matt cain, a two-run home run.

that gave the cards the lead for good. they go on to win 3-1. there was a 3 1/2-hour rain delay in the seventh. they did come back to finish. cards lead going into tonight's game four as they look to go back to the world series. the american league, yankees extended their season yesterday. >> oh, good. >> not with a win. got help from the rain up in detroit. game four of the alcs, rained out. they'll play today at 4:00. alex rodriguez again not scheduled to be in the lineup. second straight night. before the game, a-rod spoke with reporters about being benched by joe girardi. >> i'm not happy about it. obviously, you come to the ballpark assuming you can help the team win. you know, when you see your name is not in the lineup, you're obviously disappointed. and you've got to just shift to being a cheerleader. and also make sure that y're ready when your number's called. bottom line is anytime i'm in any lineup, i think that lineup is better and has a better chance to win. i don't care if it's an all-star game. i feel i can bring that type of

impact, and i'm also at any point ready to break through. i thought my at-bats in some of those games got a little better. in the last two, i hit two rockets. anytime i'm in the box, the game could change, and everyone knows that. >> a-rod also weighed in on a story first reported by the "new york post" that said rodriguez had a baseball delivered to a couple of female fans sitting a couple rows behind the dugout, requesting that it be returned with their phone numbers. this is from the "new york post." according to reports, that happened after he was taken out of game one of the alcs. and now a yankees' team source is confirming the story to espn, saying the whole incident was, quote, witnessed in the dugout. yesterday a-rod was asked about that incident. >> are you being punished for the thing that was in the paper the other day with the girls and the ball? >> i mean, look. i addressed that yesterday, and i said it was laughable. you know, i've been here a long time in new york. i think nine years, i've never

addressed anything from "page 6." i've never addressed anything from blogs or gossip columns. we're here to cover baseball. you know, i do think that some of the criticism out there is very fair. and i can live with that. but some of the other stuff is not fair. and you just move on. you don't worry about it too much. >> you know, willie, the "new york post" has weighed in on this. >> "new york post." >> horses are not even safe. >> they are all over this story. give them great credit because they've also found a horse at belmont named a-rod. the headline in "the post," "belmont's a-rod a big loser, too." this is a horse that finished last. a gelding that finished last in an obscure race. at belmont. >> now look at the story down below that i was going up to about the saucy aussie and the jiggle joint. explain. >> our continuing coverage, joe, of the story, this is the woman who allegedly received the ball and whose phone number was asked for by alex rodriguez.

"new york post" reporting that she is, in fact, a saucy aussie and that she did, in fact, seat a job at a new york jiggle joint. >> what is that? >> a bikini model. >> shameless appeal for the pulitzer. >> and this is, in fact, the back page of the "post." the real story is that a lot of people think tonight could be his last night in a new york yankees uniform. >> i've got news for you for the yankees. it's going at least to game six. >> sabathia i think wins tonight. i don't know -- they can't hit. they just can't hit. >> i think they're going to get to game six and then who knows? >> i hope you're right. game six is in new york. anything could happen pap >> anything could happen. >> starting next week as we've been telling you, "morning joe's" going to be live in boca. >> that's going to be fun. >> coverage of the final presidential debate. we'll be at racks in mizner park. we start monday and tuesday at 5:30 a.m. the first 10,000 people will get

commemorative chuck todd buttons. isn't that exciting? >> awesome! >> could we rename that place, by the way? >> who, racks? >> racks. >> what would you like to rename it? >> rascals. >> we'll ask john harwood. he went to the cs -- what's that? he went to the crosby, stills & nash concert. we need reports. and mika's "must-read opinion pages" next. [ male announcer ] feeling like a shadow of your former self? c'mon, michael! get in the game!

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it is 47 past the hour. >> look at that beautiful shot. >> it is gorgeous. the sun has yet to come up over washington. >> don't we have any "homeland" fans here? >> it's time to get up, everybody. >> you told me about "homeland." >> i told you about "homeland." >> halperin, have you got into

"homeland" yet? >> john? >> two episodes. >> you've seen two episodes? >> i just got started. >> you can't just eat one. >> no. >> watch two of "homeland." >> claire danes is cool. >> yeah, she's great. >> what a great, great cast. >> okay. >> season two started up. >> season two started up, yeah. you're watching from the beginning or started in the middle? >> i just started from the beginning. >> you need to do it. it's great stuff. >> yeah, how do you turn it off, though, once you start from the beginning? i watched two in a row, and then fell asleep. >> okay. you've got to keep going. >> john harwood's here. >> john harwood, tell us about the concert last night. pretty incredible stuff, huh? >> it was very cool. i don't know, for some reason the nostalgia trip was moving. and the beacon theater is a beautiful facility. i don't know, when they played "southern cross," the place was rocking. >> crosby, stills & nash is unbelievable. a new quinnipiac poll shows

chris christie leading 46%-42%. there were polls out earlier this week christie's approval rating way up in the 50s. i tell what you, he'd be a hard guy to beat. i don't think cory booker's going to take that chance. would you agree with me, mark? >> i'd agree. i'd be surprised if he doesn't. >> i don't think he'll take that chance. he plays it safe, and chris christie, i would not want to run against chris christie in new jersey. >> the so-called fiscal cliff, of course, is approaching. and president obama is threatening to block any legislation to avoid the deep spending cuts and tax hikes unless republicans accept his demands to raise tax rates on the wealthiest part of the deal. according to "the post," an election victory would give democrats significant new clout and another potential fiscal showdown. in fact, some republicans have conceded that if the president wins a second term, it would mean a mandate to raise the rates on top earners. now, some in the gop are considering ways to offer the president new revenue without

letting the top rate rise. one scenario involves the $800 billion framework from the president's failed grand bargain negotiations with house speaker john boehner. other democrats say, though, they would demand far more than that figure if the president wins re-election. >> that's fine. whether the president wins or whether mitt romney wins, everybody's going to have to sit down and meet in the middle, john harwood. you know, i hate -- i know elections have consequences, but these people that think oh, if mitt romney wins, we're validated and they've got to come our way or if barack obama's re-elected, we're validated. no, no, they're not. we still have a constitution. there's still a separation of powers. it's still going to require both sides giving up things they don't want to give up, right? >> i agree. and i think that the eventual fiscal deal that either one of these presidents, potential presidents, strikes will be within a fairly narrow band in terms of what the contents of that deal are. i do think it's a sign that we're getting closer to a deal if republicans are preparing

revenue offers because the problem has been for the last couple of years is no revenue offers whatsoever. and now the president's got a little bit of the high cards. i do think it is possible that if you got to post-election and obama has won, you could see some variant of the romney tax plan emerge. that is to say i don't think the president is necessarily stuck on 39.6 as the cardinal principle, it's more revenue from the top that's the cardinal principle. and if they could do that through some sort of reform, i think he'd consider that. >> by the way, i've got bad news for republicans, mika, if mitt romney wins, there's still going to have to be a new revenue. it's going to be part of the deal. if you're going to turn on mitt romney and say oh, you lied to us then go ahead and start right now because there's going to have to be new revenue. >> he's going to have to make it happen. >> you're right, no matter who wins, there's going to have to be a deal. where the line is in the fight is going to move depending upon who actually wins. i think to the point about

romney and the high rates and all that, the problem is math, basically. that it's very hard to generate meaningful amounts of new revenue and get the tax rates down. it's just very, very hard. so i don't think -- i think you might might find some middle ground in terms of not going up so much or other sources of revenue, but there has to be revenue. i think what's different now from the end of 2010, i think president obama, whether he's elected or not elected, he's put a stake in the ground, and i think he means it. >> oh, i absolutely think he means it. i think if obama's re-elected, which looks like it's a slightly greater than 50/50 chance right now, the first call he makes is to john boehner to resume those grand bargain negotiations. >> we're hearing now the senate may stay in democratic hands, and it's looking more and more likely that that's the case. if the republicans maintain control of the house again, we basically have the same scenario we've had over the past two years. >> and i think that status quo result is probably the most congenial formula to getting a deal quickly.

>> but the one thing you have that we haven't had for two years and you have the cliff. something has to happen. >> exactly. >> it's not a case where congress says we're not going to do anything and go home. >> look at europe if you don't think that exists. >> all we're saying and john, what you've been saying here is democrats and republicans, if we have the status quo, you guys are still going to have to sit down, talk and do things you don't want to do. >> because as steve said, you've got a huge action-forcing mechanism hanging over. >> all right. john harwood, thank you so much. >> thank you, john. >> i'm going to go to the concert. i can't wait. >> sweet. you going tonight? >> probably tomorrow night. author of the best-selling block "blackhawk down," this time taking us behind the scenes of the bin laden raid including an exclusive interview with the president himself. "morning joe" will be back in a moment. ♪ [ male announcer ] start with nothing,

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now, as you probably know, there's no such thing as a first lady debate, but that did not stop the following people from weighing in on it. >> who do you think won the debate between ann romney and michelle obama last night? >> i'd have to say michelle obama. she really did a lot better. her speech was more drafted. it was more finely well cut. >> definitely ann romney. i think she's a very classy and wonderful lady. >> was there anything she said during the debate in particular? >> no, i just liked how it looked. >> michelle. >> why do you say that? >> because i love her. >> do you think she did the better job? >> yeah, absolutely. she's amazing. yeah. she connected with people. >> is there anything in particular she said that spoke to you? >> no, in general, i just saw a

little bit of it to tell you, honestly, i had something else going on so i didn't see the whole debate. but i saw the personality came out. >> all right. welcome back to "morning joe." look at that beautiful shot of washington. mark halperin and steve rattner are still with us. and joining us from washington, former white house press secretary under president clinton and contributing editor to "vanity fair." dee dee meyers. good to have you on board this hour. >> good morning, mika. good to be here. >> we're going to begin with polling to show you this morning. according to the latest gallup daily tracking poll, mitt romney is leading 51%/45%. note this was taken up to the days leading up to tuesday night's debate. according to the marquette poll, president obama is up one point in wisconsin after trailing by 11 points last month. >> dee dee meyers, these polls obviously taken before the debate. what do you suspect the outcome of that debate is going to be on the polls? do you think it just stops the romney momentum? do we see it bounce back the

other direction? how do you see it? >> yeah, i think at a minimum it stops the romney momentum. i think the president sort of got back into the fight on tuesday night. we'll have to wait and see. i mean, it wasn't as clear a win as romney enjoyed in the first debate, but certainly the president did very well. he came out aggressively. certainly he's going to energize democrats. and a lot of that, you know, a lot of what we saw in romney's increasing poll numbers was republicans coming home. republicans becoming more enthusiastic. and some independents who are already republican-leaning becoming more enthusiastic. we need to see that on the obama side now, and i guess the coming days will tell. >> yeah. we looked at post-debate polls that suggested people seemed to favor the president's performance in the debate, but they gave mitt romney higher marks for his ability to handle the economy. so steve rattner is here with charts this morning to explain why that may have come out that way. charts on the economy. steve, take it away. >> sure. well, as we all know, the

president has been facing a pretty stiff economic headwind. what i want to do is lay out how his economic situation compares to indicators to those of other people who have run for president recently. you'll see interesting results in terms of how the economy's performed. one measure people often look at is real gdp which is how much has the economy grown. so for each of these presidents we start with the beginning of their first term, and then we progress ourselves out to their re-election point. and what you can see not surprisingly, because we talk a lot about the weak economy, is that by this measure, obama is really pretty much at the bottom of the pack. and the other four presidents that have preceded him all had substantially better performance when it comes to plain economic growth. now, economic growth alone is not a recipe for re-election, as you can see, because bush 41 did not get re-elected, and jimmy carter, of course, did not get re-elected.

>> what do you see from that chart that that trough you see right there took a lot of digging to get out of, and that's why they're at 3.1%. >> that's precisely the argument, but remember, we are growing slowly, 1.3%, 1.5%, not the kind of growth rates we've had in the past. so it is a slow-growth economy. i think when people are asked how does the president handle the economy, it obviously factors into their view. but if you look at a couple other measures -- >> can i ask you a quick question? when did we last have a period of four-year gdp growth this low? >> i think you'd have to go back to -- >> you'd have to go back to the '30s? >> i think you'd have to go back to the '30s. four years like this, yeah. i think so. >> the early '30s, maybe? >> we'll do a politifact check on that. >> sorry, i know it wasn't on the chart. >> when we talk about not having to go back to the '30s for this slow growth rate, you know, this leads to something that i was worried about at the end of the bush administration, that they had thrown everything -- they

had thrown tax cuts, they had thrown two wars, they had thrown huge spending, they had thrown, you know, prescription drug benefits. they threw everything at the economy, and it was still winding down. i'm just -- i fear, unless we have real innovation in the marketplace, we're looking at something much bigger than this president or mitt romney. we're looking at the possibility of a lost decade. >> well, that is the fear. and maybe next week we'll talk a little bit about the future because there's a lot of reason to feel the way you feel, and there's some reasons to be a little bit more optimistic. but let's talk about what voters are looking at as they go in the voting booth. job growth is one that obviously everybody talks about as being a major factor in these elections. and here we're going to show clinton who, of course, is sort of the gold standard with 9.9% job growth. and then you see both obama and bush 43 essentially with no job growth down at the bottom. again, you see kind of a mixed picture of presidents who got

re-elected and how the job growth corresponds. what's not on here is jimmy carter who actually had the best job growth of all of them. this is a surprise. he had 12% job growth during his first -- during his first four years and still didn't get re-elected. >> wow! >> dee dee meyers, what do you think? >> yeah, steve, looking at that, that's president bush's first four years, 43, there was negative job growth, is that what i'm seeing on that chart? >> bush's first four years, yes, it was roughly sl lly flat and y negative, yes. >> so there is a precedent in a close election. >> yeah, exactly. >> dee dee, we've been debating this morning about what's happening. you're seeing that mitt romney erasing the gender gap, pew poll last week had it neck and neck. >> well, that's one poll, though, joe. there were a dozen other polls. >> let me give you another poll,

dee dee, that came out. >> i'm eager to hear about it. >> the "usa today"/gallup poll of the 12 battleground states that was released yesterday also showed a tie between the two. i think actually the president was up by one. there are democrats that are running around talking about one poll out of ohio that shows a 22-point gap. >> by the way, we'll be talking on the "today" show in just a moment about this. it's a good time for this. >> so dee dee, are you in the camp that the gender gap's not been erased, that these polls are wrong, or do you think that it's tightened up? >> well, i think there's no question that it's tightened up. i don't think it's zero. i don't think it's zero in the battleground states, and i don't think it's zero nationally, but i do think, look, there's been a lot of movement toward romney, at least among, likes i said, republicans coming home and republican-leaning independents. and i do think the president ought to focus on this. i think there's a big difference in how these two look at the world, how they view the role of women. look, i don't think governor romney's a bad guy, but i don't think that he gets it. and i think if you look at his positions across this campaign

and even before, he talks a good game, but he's taken positions that are really, i think, you know, want to take women back, whether it's supporting the blunt amendment which would give employers the right to say they don't want their employees' policies to cover birth control, who would do that? he says that he's -- now he says he would have, you know, would allow exceptions for a ban on abortion for rape, incest and the life of the mother, but he said he'd sign a personhood amendment which would not only make all abortion illegal, it would make certain forms of ext contraception illegal. he had no answer about equal pay, about the pay gap. a woman said women are still making 72 cents on the dollar. he had no answer for that. the president could at least talk about signing lilly ledbetter which is an important piece of legislation. we know mitt romney, even though he denies it, says that -- he said he was against it during that process. so there's a big difference. now, all that said, i think both of them missed an opportunity to

make one really important point, which is why does it matter? why should there be more opportunity for women? this isn't just about political correctness. it's about our economic future. if we leave half of our talent on the sidelines, if we discourage women from fully participating in the work force, we're going to lose half the talent. it's going to set us back economically. it's not just -- it is an issue for women, but as was mentioned, it's an issue for families, but it's an issue for the future of the country. we will not be as strong and competitive and innovative as we can be unless everybody has a chance to contribute, and neither candidate talked about that. >> actually, i think the president did. he literally said, this isn't about women. this is about families. >> he said it's about families -- >> well, that's what you just said. >> it's about the future and it's not just about political correctness, doing what's nice for women because, you know, it's, you know, makes everybody feel good. >> right. >> it's in our self-interest. >> it helps everybody. >> we saw the other night two different philosophies. >> right. >> on the issue, which is why i

was sort of hammering away in the past hour. >> she never had to talk about binders. detracted the two candidates on their stands. >> that makes her a stronger woman than me. because i don't think the show was ten seconds in when i got at it. >> we're going to simulcast with the "today" show. i'm very excited. >> we're going to be talking to them about this issue as well as how each candidate counters on the economy as it pertains to women and then families overall and what numbers actually were true that were mentioned the other night. >> are you going to talk about binders? >> i might. >> i bet you will. >> i might. we'll see. >> i don't think you can help yourself. >> the hosts of msnbc's "morning joe." good morning. >> good morning. good to see you, too. >> joe, i'll start with you as the dust settles on this debate. do you think either candidate gets a bounce, or has the race more or less stabilized and now it's neck and neck until election day? >> well, it's going to look like the race has stabilized, but

actually something much bigger happened. mitt romney had a tremendous amount of momentum coming out of the first debate. he was like secretariat charging up on the rest of the field and was about to blow past and had the dynamic remained the name, i think mitt romney would have won the election going away. the second debate stopped that momentum, and i think we have them now in a place where they're neck and neck. they're neck and neck in florida, in north carolina, in virginia, now in wisconsin according to a new poll. and so it's going to be a tight race all the way to the end, and i really do predict, by the end the night, we're going to be looking at one state and one state only. it's going to be in the words of tim russert, ohio, ohio, ohio. >> yeah, some people think we'll be counting ballots late into the night in ohio. mika, i want to bring you in on this. the term "binders full of women." it has taken on a life of its own. the democrats love it. they think it really shows mitt romney at his most awkward. but if the fight is for independent, undecided women voters, do you think this is an issue that's weighty enough to

resonate? >> yeah, because i think women care about the economy. they want jobs, and they, by the way, want to be paid the same as their male counterparts. and that comment the other night made by mitt romney at the debate showed, first of all, that he was at the very least misleading about exactly what he did with those binders. he says he sought them out and asked for lists of women to hire. the truth, apparently, is that both candidates running for governor were given binders with names of women in them. so he changed that story around to fit the narrative of the night. the bigger picture is, he wouldn't have supported the lilly ledbetter act, which is the first act -- first piece of legislation the president signed when in office. the president set up the white house council on women and girls. he's been working to get women equal pay every step of the way down the road here in this administration. and mitt romney just completely doesn't have any leg to stand on when it comes to women and the economy. he claims to. he does not. >> let me just say, i mean, willie geist and i find this

highly offensive. we used to have binders filled with women as well. >> we don't want to hear about your college days. >> well, yeah. >> ridiculous. >> joe, i know you do take a different view on the binders full of women, maybe now we know why, given your past history with binders. >> yeah. >> let me ask you a more serious question. the recurring criticism of both of these candidates is that neither has been very specific. and in particular, the president really going on the attack against mitt romney the other night. do you think he's really laid out a vision of what he wants to do for the next four years? >> no, he hasn't. neither has mitt romney. neither one of these candidates have told americans, okay, you're having problems right now? this has been the roughest four years you've had of your entire adult lifetime. we were just talking on the set with steve rattner today. this may be the first time that we've had growth below 2% four years in a row since the 1930s. but mitt romney's a challenger. when people go into the voting booth, they're going to be looking at the guy that's been running the country over the past four years, and they have a

very simple decision to make. do i rehire him or do i try the other guy? and really, the burden of proof is on the guy that's been in the white house for the past four years. are his policies working, and where is he going to take us over the next four years? for some reason, savannah, i'm not really sure why, both campaigns decided a year ago that they were not going to be specific about the future. and i think right now that's costing the president a bit more than it's costing mitt romney. >> so the answer to that question is, are his policies working? yes, they are. housing prices are up. unemployment is down. consumer confidence is up. foreclosures are down. the list goes on. >> all right. >> and the president claims that he wants to build this economy from the middle out. if you look at the manufacturing numbers, that shows, if you look at the auto industry -- >> mika's going to the senate. she's filibustering. savannah. >> there's a reason you have a three-hour show and i just got three minutes. >> locusts descending from the skies, dogs and cats living together, a bad four years ahead.

thank you, savannah. >> enjoy the rest of your show. joe and mika, great to have you both this morning. >> can you believe this, willie? can you believe this? huh? >> what? >> it was a hijacking. >> she hijacked the show! >> i'm sorry. >> good for you, mika. >> thank you, rattner. you asked a question. >> do you see me interrupting? >> reset for the bravo simulcast. that starts in three, two, one. >> first of all -- >> exports or manufacturing? where do you want to go? >> can i make one very serious point? >> we'd prefer that you wouldn't, but okay. >> so let's talk about mika. this issue about them not talking about the future which, of course, i agree, they're not, but there's a reason for it because talking about the future and being honest is not great politics because what this country is going to need in the future to fix itself are things people don't really want to hear about, which are more revenues, which is less government spending, which is fixing the deficit and all of our structural problems and deleveraging. it's not a happy story. it's not -- you know, if you're being honest with the american people about what you need to

do, it's dealing with medicare, dealing with social security. these are very politically difficult issues. >> but dee dee meyers, when clinton ran in 1996, i don't really remember people saying he's not talking about anything. he had that goofy, we're going to build a bridge to the 21st century. he had that stupid bridge in the mall that he built for inaugural week. threw up all over it, by the way. at least bill clinton did talk about things he was going to do the next four years. you're just not seeing that with president obama. >> and you know, that's the one lesson -- i say this all the time -- but bill clinton will tell you over and over two things. one, elections are always about the future. and he used to say, i ran for governor of arkansas 87 times and every single time i ran as the candidate of change. and i don't think we've seen either of those things from either candidate yet, and i think it's important. look, mitt romney's getting credit for talking about the future from voters, and you see that in some of the numbers. for a plan that's so vague, it's like saying he's for apple pies, puppies, the future america. and yet because he enumerates a

five-point plan, at least there's some attempt to acknowledge that voters want to talk about the future. and so i think it would behoove the president in the coming -- he doesn't have a lot of time, but if he just repackages the things he's been talking about in a way that -- and he did it a little bit in the debate. he talked about sort of the things that he was going to do, his plan to create a million new jobs, you know, his energy policy, investing in education. i think he just needs to put that together in a way that says this is my plan for the next four years. >> mark, we have been talking about how stuart stevens and mitt romney got together and decided they weren't going to be really specific about the next four years, but the press hasn't been focusing as much on the white house's decision to really say next to nothing about what they're going to do over the next four years. who made that decision? when did they make that decision? when you write "game change," what's the key moment where they said, listen, we're not going to get really specific about the next four years? >> i think after the bungts deal

fell apart, the grand bargain with john boehner and they decided to spend the last year drawing contrast with the other party. my criticism of the president in the debate and the reason i didn't give him a higher grade is because he wasn't specific and dealing with people in the president's campaign who criticized the relatively low grade for a guy who won, i said name what he said that was specific. in the debate, he said, i need another term to keep doing what i did in the first term. and a lot of americans think the first term was not perfect, to say the least. >> right. >> he's not specific. and to go back to what steve said, neither of them talking about sacrifice. we're going to need some sacrifice. and while that's not politically popular, i think americans would like a conversation like that. we talk about that all the time here. people want specifics. it's not just something to say. it's true. and the thing i worry about most is in three weeks is either of them going to have a mandate to do anything? >> no. no, they're not. >> and that's going to make the grand bargain harder. you need a strong president for a grand bargain. >> i don't think they are. does anybody here think that either one of these candidates are going to have a mandate?

>> i think the president will have a mandate to raise taxes on the wealthy if he wins. >> i think that's already clear. i think he said that. >> by the way, steve a minute ago articulated perhaps the most depressing truth in all of politics which is that you can't tell the truth and win. on the hard questions, that you're not going to have some of the benefits you had before on one side or you're going to have to pay more taxes perhaps on the other side. if you say that, you lose. and that's incredibly depressing. >> well, you can't go halfway. >> right. >> if you're willing to base your campaign on telling americans, this is what we're going to have to do. medicare, social security, medicaid, the numbers don't add up, and we're going to have to make some really tough choices, and we're going to slow down the rate of growth of all of those programs, and that's the reality. plus we have to bring in new revenue to the federal government and cut defense spending significantly over the next decade. americans would buy that. but if you just dip your toe into medicare and then rush out the first time they throw a 30-second ad, you're going to get mauled. >> all the negatives, none of the positives. >> all the negatives, none of

the positives. whereas if you go in there and charge in. listen, if you go up and pat a sacred cow and run away, you're in trouble. if you go in with guns blazing and aren't afraid to kill all the sacred cows and stand on top of them and say hell yeah, i did, because this is how we're going to save america, you get rewarded. >> who has done that successfully? >> ross perot, 1992. crazy. >> but successfully. >> crazy, i know. i would say dee dee meyers was there. i would say dee dee, running the crazy campaign that he ran, saying the crazy things that he said and still being in first place by the time you guys rolled into the democratic convention, it was a hell of a successful campaign. if he had kept it together, that could have been a very fascinating race, but that guy got rewarded. >> well, he did -- he totally changed the debate about the deficit and what to do about it and whether it was important to balance the budget. that never would have been part of the debate. and his impact lasted beyond the campaign. i don't think you can say a guy who got 19% and is widely

considered to be kind of a nut was totally successful. but he was successful in that one -- in that one way. and you know, the following year, right, that was a terrible time for the president. i mean, two years later, after the democrats lost the house and the senate and the republicans did it largely on we're going to balance the budget, we're going to do it in ten years, president clinton finally said, look, we can either have a debate about whether to balance the budget or we can have a debate about how. he came out and said i'm going to do it in seven years. here's how we're going to do it. that was a very successful, and i think there's a parallel there, which is that in this debate, if you acknowledge that difficult choices are going to have to be made, then you can have an argument about whose interests are going to be protected and whose, you know, whose aren't? and that's a better argument for the president to have. >> all right, dee dee meyers, thank you so much. great to have you on. still ahead, caroline kennedy will be here with her new book on her father's

presidency. we'll hear audio from jfk himself inside the oval office. and up next, is college worth it? that's the $100,000 question facing millions of graduating teens, and it's the focus of this week's "time" cover. rick stengel is here with a first look at the new issue. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. i'm so g

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that makes watching tv even better. if your tv were a hot dog zeebox would be some sort of fancy, french mustard. when they magically unite,

people would think, "woah, this two dollar hot dog tastes like a fancy eight dollar hot dog." download zeebox free, and say "woah" every time you watch tv. joining us now, "time" magazine managing editor rick stengel. >> it looks like we've got breaking news on my twitter feed. >> yeah. >> "newsweek," i retweeted a howard kurtz, and he retweeted "newsweek." "newsweek" will transition to all-digital format in early 2013. last print edition of "newsweek" in america will be december the 31st. rick, that's -- >> joe, good morning. how are you? that's fascinating news. a handsome tie you have on this morning. >> you're not going to talk about your competitor, "newsweek." >> actually, you don't have to talk about your competitor, but

what does this mean in general? >> it's a tough, tough business out there. >> yes, to be fair. you know, to be fair to them, we've certainly moved past seeing them as a single competitor, and our competitor is everybody. is everybody in the news business and the information business, and it is -- and it is tough. but we've done very well. we will continue to do well. i've always said like the nba slogan, there can only be one. and that's us. >> from a business point of view, though, how important is this to you as opposed to your website? >> well, you know, that is the -- i have to say, that's the centerpiece of the brand in the sense that it becomes this kind of premium centerpiece for everything else that comes around. we're on every platform. i mean, we have 3 million twitter followers. you know, our website is very robust. i think at a certain point people will get -- you'll get a subscription of one price that gives you many different tentacles of the brand.

and that is part of it. it's not necessarily the way you read "time," but you can have it in addition to having a digital subscription, a mobile subscription and all of that. >> but it's still cost effective for you to print this out every week? >> well, that still is the most expensive single thing to chop down trees and put ink on paper and then put it on a truck and deliver it, you know, to your house. and obviously the post office has a lot of trouble. but i do think that becomes a premium product that you get in addition to all the other as specks of "time" on every other platform, including mark halperin all the time. >> i hate to keep breaking in with breaking news here, but i've got to break in on this on something completely -- >> what's going on? >> there's this back and forth about you and the binders and then jonah goldberg tweeted, "well, i wonder if mika's going to demand that she gets paid as much as joe." to which i responded "god, i hope not." and then we get this tweet. listen to this. "there would be no "morning joe"

without mika. i remember when her father came on the show and cut joe in half before joe ever even felt the knife. >> joe, that's sad. that was affection. >> cher. that's cher. got the check mark by it, 1 million followers. so cher is a fan -- >> cher, i can tell you, is an active viewer and a valued viewer. >> the cher? >> the cher. >> cher, yeah. >> she's very interactive with this program. >> i'm going to follow her. >> so yeah, follow her. >> she's a big page fan. >> cher, if you're watching right now, i agree, we all think it should be called "morning mika." this is also an act. i'm like sonny. >> it is your show. i'm just helping you. >> i knew sonny. he was a friend of mine. he was a funny guy. >> "love don't pay the rent." >> is that a song? >> halperin knows all the lyrics. >> i hear this from people in the town. they call me fred flintstone. let's talk about "time." isn't that cool? >> that's so cool! i just followed her.

>> follow her. she loves you. she hates me. she's right about the knife. i never even felt it. i was on the ground. >> better not to feel it, though. >> tell us about "time." >> let's talk about "time." >> this is a special issue. it will now become an annual special issue on higher ed and challenges facing higher ed. what educators will tell you, there's an iron triangle of challenges to higher education. that's cost, access and quality. i mean, i'm particularly obsessed with the access problem and going at higher ed. if you look at the 156 top private colleges in america, only 3% of their students come from the bottom quarter of income. the next quarter, only 7% more. and this is all at a time when more and more businesses need college graduates. you look at the statistics. they show by 2020 something like 56 or almost 60% of all jobs will require a college degree. and yet there are people talking about fewer people going to college and why do so many people have to go to college. and even that image of the

classic college student, a young person at a four-year college walking across campus and living there, that's only 15% of all students in higher ed now. 40% are in two-year colleges. another 35% are over the age of 25. so it's a whole new universe out there. and our cover story by amanda ripley is about these mooks, they're called, massive online courses. and she took a physics course online and talked about that experience. and one of the things about online courses that they do is they teach you the way you learn. you learn best at night. you can study at night. if you learn best early in the morning, can you do it in the morning. and it goes at your own pace. it interrupts you constantly because it shows that the brains of college students need to be interrupted every eight to ten minutes with a question. and so much of the traditional education is basically like it always was. you know, a person standing in front of a blackboard during a lecture. >> you say colleges are going by way of magazines? >> well, i do think --

>> in a way? >> it's funny, if you look at every business, that old core, whether it's the movie business with theaters and colleges with bricks and mortar campuses or stores with bricks and mortar stores, so much of what was once the center is now being eroded by digital, by other platforms. and it's a kind of creative destruction which is often beneficial. >> what do you do about costs, rick? because they've exploded above and beyond the rate of inflation. it's not just expensive to get in but even if you do get in with a loan, people are saddled with loans for decades after college. is there any way to stop the rate of growth of that? >> there's almost $1 trillion now of college debt among students. it's roughly equal to what credit card debt is. costs of private colleges are going up. costs at public colleges are going up because there's fewer -- there's less government support for it. but one of the things you see in private four-year colleges is that it's become a kind of vicious cycle to justify the

costs, they build beautiful gyms and theaters and then they say, well, how come you're charging $45,000 a year? they say, well, we have this beautiful gym and we have to pay these brand-name professors. you know, one of my bugaboos is tenure. that's an issue in high schools as well as colleges. is the efficiency of professors what it should be? are they teaching enough? are they teaching in the right way? you know, you're paying that much money to have your son or daughter out of your own money to go to college, you really want to have something that actually is pretty darn practical. so we have -- we have a poll that we did with the carnegie corporation and the gates foundation looking at how regular people look at -- >> look at this, 80%, colleges are not worth the money. >> regular folks think that 80%, that it's not worth the money. and then we also did a poll with carnegie among college presidents and educators and about 40% of those folks think that it's not worth it.

i also want to say that today we're doing a one-day conference with carnegie and the gates foundation at the time warner center looking at these issues of access, cost, quality. and i've got to tip my hat to the real person who is the prime mover behind this who is the head of the carnegie corporation of new york and a great educator, a great american. >> can i ask you -- thank god they're a great american. thanks for putting that in there. you could have been a republican congressman. he's a great american! so let's talk about -- do you get into votech? do you get into vocational training and kids that don't decide not to go to college? because you know for years we had this attitude like oh, you go there because you can't go to college. and what we're finding now is that, you know, you could get out of school and you know, get

out of high school, learn how to become a really good plumber and make a hell of a lot more than a college grad that's sitting in a cubicle all day. >> absolutely. >> own your own business. expand out. we have these gaps in our economy now from people that hoity-toity, you know, mark halperins you used to look down on, but now, seriously, there's so many opportunities. >> i'm a very big supporter of voc ed. joe klein, as you know -- one of the things we're seeing in the education system is at the very high end, the very elite schools are doing fine. and what used to be considered the bottom end, the community colleges, vocational education, they are doing very well, too, because people need them. there are jobs out there that are unfilled because the skill set of the applicants doesn't make it. and we're not educating people to that purpose. and voc ed is not just about plumbing or being an electrician but computer engineering and all

the new skill sets related to the digital economy where we need to have an educated expertise. >> the new cover of "time" "reinventing college." rick stengel, thank you very much. >> that's a real chalkboard, by the way. >> is it really? >> the artist did that and we photographed it and we had to close it early because you can't change chalk. >> that's true, you can't. all right. rick, thank you very much. >> thank you, rick. >> more "morning joe" in just a moment. s

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call or click today. still ahead, the author of "black hawk down" takes us behind the scenes of the bin laden raid including an exclusive interview with the president himself, author mark bowden is here to discuss his book. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.

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bowden, well known for his 1999 "new york times" best-seller and out with the new book of "the finish: the killing of osama bin laden." welcome back to the show. good to see you. >> thank you. >> mark, you were granted great access. you tried to tell this from the perspective of what president obama was saying. tell us about it. >> well, i think he's certainly a central player in this story. you know, he campaigned -- he was jumped on by nearly everyone when he said that he would launch a raid into pakistan if he had actionable intelligence that a top al qaeda figure was there. so he meant what he said. and about a year after he was in office, you know, they came to him with this information about this compound in abadabad. a big part of the story is how that mission was prepared, how the president decided to launch it. so it's a big piece. >> and from the president's

perspective, he had to obviously weigh a lot of options, and there were those who were very high profile, very high in the administration who did not think it was a good idea. >> well, i mean, there are ample historical precedents for failed missions overseas. you know, the big one i think particularly in the mind of secretary of defense gates was the failed rescue mission to iran. and secretary gates had actually been in the situation room as a staffer for the carter administration when that happened. it's a sobering memory for him. and there was a huge potential down side to sending those s.e.a.l.s in. >> mark, can you say how isolated he was in the moment of that final decision? because the white house has been very clear, this was the president's decision and his decision alone. in those final moments, was it really just him? >> it was just him. he withheld making a decision at the end of the final decision meeting and slept on it, basically. and he told me he paced in the treaty room upstairs for hours that night.

he had a hard time sleeping that night. he kept waking up and thinking, have i done everything that we should do? do i know -- is there anything else i should do before i make this decision? you know, woke up in the morning and texted tom donelan and said meet me in the diplomatic room or whatever it's called and said prepare the directives. we're going to launch the mission. >> it would have been extraordinarily complex if bin laden has been captured rather than killed. was that something that the u.s. government thought was conceivable, or was it pretty clear that the best and only outcome was to kill him on site? >> that's a really good question. i think the president would have preferred to have him alive and told me that if he did, he thought he might have the political capital to put him on trial in federal court which, as you know, is something that president obama has advocated, you know, ever since he took office. but i think that, you know, that was not a strong directive to the s.e.a.l.s team. you don't tell a bunch of guys going into a dark house with

armed enemy that, you know, i want him -- i want you to make sure you bring this guy back alive. the first priority was getting those s.e.a.l.s back alive, particularly when the s.e.a.l.s were fired upon as they first entered the compound, i think that sealed the fate of just about every male adult in that house because at that point, you have to expect someone else is going to shoot at you, and they're shooting first and asking questions later. >> and joe biden opposed the raid, huh? >> he did. he was the only person, really, among the principals who advocated waiting. and the down side to that was as now there were probably hundreds of people who were clued into the abbottabad compound and the secret was only going to hold for so much longer. the vice president, who is the president's running mate, if he's going to get political advice from anybody in the situation room, it's going to be from joe biden. >> and why did he want him to wait? >> he wanted to wait because

only about a 50/50 chance that was target was bin laden. and the down side of something going wrong on this mission could cost the president a second term. >> so then tell us about the role and the impact of admiral william mccraven. >> i think he is actually the key player in this story. you know, as president obama, you know, paced and tried to decide what to do, he told me that the thing that ultimately convinced him that they should go ahead was the confidence he had in admiral mccraven. here you have a guy who has commanded and participated in literally thousands of these special ops raids over the last ten years. he told him, mr. president, we can do this. >> i had dinner a couple months ago with a group of active navy s.e.a.l.s. and i was amazed to hear them say that on the logistical merits alone, this wasn't that tough an operation. they said there were probably a bunch of other operations just like it happening that night and the night before and the next

night. they said the one caveat was the race to the border was a little bit different. >> yeah. that's exactly what admiral mccraven said when he was first briefed on this. he said, you know, the raid is not a big deal. my guys do this every night. the trouble is going to be -- what did he say -- it's going to be a little sporty, getting in and getting out. and you know, the down side here is that pakistan's military had responded and confronted them. there was a very strong likelihood that we would get in a shooting war with our ally, pakistan. we had backup forces on the border in afghanistan, air force was ready to come in and protect those helicopters coming out. so when you start to think about how this could have played out, there was a huge risk that he took. >> how close were they to some kind of confrontation? it's remarkable still that pakistan didn't pick up on this until we were gone and back over the border. how close did we come? >> it wasn't even close. i think they scrambled their fighters after the helicopters had left pakistan's airspace. i mean, it speaks to the talents

of our special operations. >> mark bowden, thank you so much. the book is "the finish." "the killing of osama bin laden." thank you very much. still ahead -- >> willie, you're a big fan of another one of his books. the killing of sosama bin laden. >>" killing pablo" about the mission to track over years pablo escobar is just a great book that mark also wrote. caroline kennedy will be here. more "morning joe" when we come back. with the fidelity stock screener, you can try strategies from independent experts and see what criteria they use. such as a 5% yield on dividend-paying stocks. then you can customize the strategies and narrow down to exactly those stocks you want to follow. i'm mark allen of fidelity investments.

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candy, what governor romney said just isn't true. >> it's alive! it's alive! woo! yes! president barack obama decided to attend this debate. and the two candidates could finally have a truthful, substantive discussion about how much they [ bleep ] hate each other! >> governor, we have actually produced more oil -- >> no, no, how much did you cut licenses and permits on federal land and federal waters and

production on government land. >> production is up. >> it is down 14%. >> governor -- >> gas is down 9% -- you'll get your chance in a moment. i'm still speaking. the answer is i don't believe people think that's the case -- that wasn't a question. >> i believe you meant to add mother [ bleep ]. >> we're told that they have practiced to such a level of detail that he even was preparing how he sits and there's a good reason for that. he is going to be sitting on a barstool and mitt romney is a mormon so he doesn't spend a lot of time on barstools, according to his aides, because he doesn't drink. >> yes. that's true. that's true. you should know that. only people who drink know how to sit on stools. that's why whenever you see someone successfully sitting on one, that is an early sign of alcoholism. seek help, please.

the guy falling off the stool, that's your designated driver. and that's why last night's debate -- i got to tell you -- it was such a challenge for mitt. lack of stool experience. i mean where would mitt have seen one? his kitchen counter? everybody knows the romney family eats standing at podiums. >> wow. >> up next, mika, you know what i want to talk about? let's talk some more about binders. >> all right. we'll do that coming up next. we'll talk about binders and the campaign trail as president obama and mitt romney fight for the women's vote. back with mark halperin and steve ratner when "morning joe" returns.

very sore looking kinda blistery. it was like a red rash... like somebody had set a bag of hot charcoal on my neck. i was a firefighter for 24 years. but, i have never encountered such a burning sensation until i had the shingles. i remember it well. i was in the back yard doing yard work. i had this irritation going on in my lower neck. i changed shirts because i thought there was something in the collar of the shirt irritating my neck. and i couldn't figure out what was going on. i had no idea it came from chickenpox. i always thought shingles was associated with people... a lot older than myself. i can tell you from experience, it is bad. it's something you never want to encounter.

for more of the inside story, visit shinglesinfo.com [ male announcer ] it's time for medicare open enrollment. are you ready? time to compare plans and see what's new. you don't have to make changes, but it's good to look. maybe you can find better coverage, save money, or both. and check out the preventive benefits you get after the health care law. ♪ medicare open enrollment. now's the time. visit medicare.gov or call 1-800-medicare. ♪ t there.it medicare.gov or call 1-800-medicare. - one serving of cheese is the size of four dice. one serving of cereal, a baseball. and one serving of fruit, a tennis ball.

- you know, both parties agree. our kids can be healthier... the more you know. you've heard of the new deal, ohio. you've heard of fair deal. mitt romney's trying to sell you a sketchy deal. but we're not buying it. we know -- we know better because this is the same sketchy deal that we saw back in the previous administration. we tried it. it didn't work. >> now i have to be honest with you, i love these debates. these things are great. and i think it's interesting that the president still doesn't have an agenda for a second term.

don't you think that it's time for him to finally put together a vision of what he had's do in the next four years if he were elected? i mean he's got to come up with that over this weekend because there's only one debate left on monday. good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. time to wake up, everyone, as you take a live look at new york. back with us on set, it's gorgeous. mark halperin and steve ratner. at the debate the other night, mitt romney talks about how there weren't enough women so he sought them out. >> right. >> and then binders of women were brought to, which is a whole funny thing -- but you know, that's not true. >> i think we should have a spirited debate in the campaign about which of these candidates would do more for all americans, including women, and look at their policy proposals and their records. but i just don't think parsing individual statements said live during a debate -- >> well, that was a prepared story. he was prepared to be asked about women and told that story,

and -- >> your point is that he just told a lie and there's no reason not to call him out for telling a lie. >> i believe that's actually our job. >> that he didn't actively in fact seek out women. >> that absolutely should be pointed out. >> by the way, look. if you want to just go deeper into it, it takes you all the way until you're running for governor to realize that there's not enough women in the workforce? nobody in your family or life has expressed a concern here that you only had to wait until it was politically -- then it turns out it wasn't even his decision to look for more women to fill his offices with but it was actually organizations of women that put together these two binders and gave it to both candidates, and then presented them to both candidates. that's just totally different than what he said at the debate. that's not a slip of the tongue or an "oops, i kind of misstated it." that was a really -- >> this is a ridiculous,

ridiculous argument to make. susan, it this is all the obama people have -- the binders, the binders. >> no, i'm good. if you want to talk about what the obama people have. this is me. >> this is an act of desperation. i know the president says at the very beginning he only wants people around him that he knew before he got there. a lot of other business people when they have to fill positions, they say to me, bring me the best, bring me everybody you have. and they're turning this into a huge issue. >> because he didn't do that. because actually the binders of women were given to both candidates. he didn't seek them out. he didn't ask for them. it's -- >> i hope the obama administration -- and i hope liberals focus on binder gate throughout the campaign. and if they do, because they have nothing else to talk about, they will find what we found at the msnbc nbc -- you see the msnbc focus group? the women that were saying that they, after the second debate, were turning to mitt romney.

keep talking about binders. mitt romney's fine. >> actually, we could go then, if you want to talk about women, whether mitt romney would actually sign the lilly ledbetter act into law or equal pay. there are so many other issues. i am personally bringing this up because i cannot believe he told that story to the american people. and prepared it for the american people. and it turns out not to be true. >> well again, if you want to focus on this -- >> forget it being completely focused on women. it just happens to be a little bit insulting that he had to make up a story about trying to help women because he couldn't find one on his own. >> beyond that -- >> kind of a problem. >> that's ridiculous, mika. that is absolutely ridiculous. that he couldn't find a woman on his own. again, this shows how desperate democrats are right now. >> no, this is just really me responding to what happened. >> well, it is ridiculous. if this concerns you, i guarantee you this is your concern. that's not the concern of a waitress that is trying to keep her two jobs in youngstown, ohio.

>> actually, it is. >> -- no, who are actually right now moving to mitt romney because they don't think president obama has a strong enough record on the economy. >> well, we can argue obama's record on the economy as well and we could probably have a very spirited debate about that. by the way, women have done better under the obama economy than men. >> then argue that instead of binder gate. binder gate. >> you know what? but i do think it connects to the waitress and it connects to the middle class. i think women who hear this story as well as a few others in terms of legislation that mitt romney would or would not support, i think women feel like the middle class, like does he get us, does he get us. you really need to -- you needed to like change a story about a bipartisan group that sent you names of very accomplish to hire because you didn't have one of your own? not good. >> keep talking about binders and mitt romney will win in a landslide. >> i was going to say, beyond the binder i thought that was more broadly a terrible answer for mitt romney. the part where he said he wanted

to give women shorter hours so they could get home to cook dinner. it showed a view of women that i think some people will not accept. >> he was talking about flex time. i can tell you that there are women across america who work for companies that have great foresight. joe's company has great foresight. they have flex hours -- >> well that's good. i'm glad he's for flex time because we'll be at work less since we're paid less. >> whatever. according to the latest gallup daily tracking poll -- >> let's see how all this is working with women out in middle america. >> i think polls are really interesting. i don't get the gallup -- >> you don't get the polls that also show that mitt romney's doing as well with women as men. or as obama. >> there are not swing state, state by state, tracking polls that say that. it is one overall gallup poll. it is confusing to me. >> the gallup poll in the battleground states actually showed that mitt romney is now

in a tie with barack obama among women. >> i find it to be perplexing. >> because women are thinking for themselves? >> no, actually -- >> -- and not going with the liberal line that they must be hyperobsessed on abortion? >> i didn't bring it up. it is eight past the hour. mitt romney is leading president obama 51-45. this poll was taking in the days leading up to tuesday night's debate. according to a new marquette university law school poll mitt romney is within one point of president obama in wisconsin after trailing by 1 poin1 pointt night. yesterday on the campaign trail both candidates tried to gain ground with women voters. take a listen. >> i've got to tell you, we don't have to collect a bunch of binders to find qualified talented driven young women ready to learn and teach in these fields and right now. and when the young women graduate, they should get equal pay for equal work. that should be a simple question to answer.

when governor romney was asked about it, his campaign said, we'll get back to you. that shouldn't be a complicated question. equal pay for equal work. i want my daughters paid just like somebody else's sons are paid for the same job. that's straightforward. >> this president has failed america's women. they've suffered in terms of getting jobs. they've suffered in terms of falling into poverty. as i go across the country and ask women what can i do to help, what they speak about, day in and day out is, help me find a good job or a good job for my spouse. and help my kid make sure my children have a bright future, better schools and better job opportunities. that's what the women of america are concerned about and the answers are coming from us and not from barack obama. >> mika, he understands. can i just say also, i value you here. >> yeah, i can see that. >> can i tell you, i've never had to bring in a stack of binders.

>> no, you didn't. >> -- to find you and to notice your work. >> mark halperin -- >> it should be "morning mika." i say that all the time. can the guys around the table vote? should it be "morning joe" or "morning mika"? >> i want to pick apart from just said, mark halperin. let's see, i can think of like four or five major parts of the health care legislation that's great for women but i'll leave social issues aside because that apparently makes joe uncomfortable. let's just talk about equal pay. ed gillespie, nobody on the romney campaign can confirm whether or not would have signed the lilly ledbetter act. and in fact there is all indications that he may not have. republicans, as we learned last round, don't support equal pay. so i'm not sure what he's talking about out on the campaign trail. what he's talking about. and by the way, if you look at unemployment as it pertains to women, it's less than men under the entire obama administration in terms of the economy. do we want to talk about the economy? does anybody want to go there and look at the data? >> totally want to talk about

the economy. totally want to talk about issues and positions and records but don't want to talk about binders and don't want to talk about a candidate in the debate getting the facts wrong about something that doesn't matter as much as a lot of other things. it's right to point out when the candidates say things wrong, but the issues are who will be better for america, not about parsing every little thing -- the president said a lot of things in the debate that weren't totally accurate either. but the binder thing is what's wrong with our politics. it is like talking about big bird, it is like talking about you didn't build it. for the last three weeks i'd just like to talk about issues an which candidate would be better for america. just for three weeks. >> he's only saying that because he loves america. okay? >> willie, would you like to chime in on binder gate? >> i don't have a whole lot to say on bindergate. >> why not? what is wrong with you people? >> steve, the president does though. he's got this binder thing and he thinks it shows that romney's

insensitive about women. >> the binder is just a symbol. i agree with mark. all that's happening now is we're having a fight for women. women are become being the battle ground to see who's going to win this election. romney's made some progress with women. he has to get further. they're each using anything they can on either side to do that, and that includes binders. i think the overarching issue is the one that mika's sort of referring to, which is should romney be attractive to women, should women feel comfortable that romney is looking after their needs or not. it doesn't have to do with binders, it has do with all of his policies from lilly led better to anything else. women have to make a decision about whether they're going to be for romney or not. that's where this campaign is being fought right now. >> i do still think it is strange we talk in such broad strokes about women, what do women voters -- imagine just talking about male voters. men voters. women are a little set of social issues. women have huge concerns just like everybody else has them. >> and we were out in l.a. the

past couple days and everywhere we went people in the business, all they talked about -- and i understand, abortion is a critical issue. for those who are pro life, for those who are pro choice, i understand that. but you go around l.a., everybody -- you go around manhattan and you get into these small groups that we get into and abortion, abortion, abortion. how could any women vote for -- these are women that aren't necessarily on the front lines of abortion. it is this issue that they blow up so much that you just sit there going are you crazy? >> it's not just abortion. women are more liberal than men on a whole series of issues. >> i'm talking especially in the media. somehow abortion takes on this position that it doesn't -- that it does not translate to middle america.

i talk about the waitresses. i could talk about the single mom who's a schoolteacher in des moines who's raising three kids on her own. you could talk about the woman who -- there are a thousand different issues but we really do boil it down and that's why the mainstream media has such a blind spot. irv's always sa i've always said the biggest blind spot is on social issues. they just can't believe a woman who believe her kids would have a better shot at education if she had a better job would be stupid enough to vote for instead of barack obama. and that person making that vote's not the stupid person. it's one that's seeing it through this ideological lens. because when americans vote, they're practical. you're frustrated though -- and i think you should explain why you're frustrated. you've worked obviously with the white house on some women's issues. you're frustrated obviously when you see these polls that show the gap's closing and you do want to know because you are close to it. and it's been in the press that

you've worked on the white house council -- >> i've also written a book on the concern about equal pay. so you can mention i've worked with the white house a few times. it means i know a lot about what the white house has done and why the comment about binders just like comments about foreign policy or the economy, the comment about binders is representative of something big as it pertains to women. women care about jobs and their families and this administration has worked to make sure loans get to women, that they have access to jobs, that they work on getting equal pay for all women because they care about bringing home the bacon for their families. the health care legislation, women now have preventative care covered so they can go to work and be healthy and take care of their families. their kids are covered until age 26. all of these are family and women issues. and then when mitt romney talks about needing a binder, whether he asked for it or it was presented to him needing a binder to understand that he

needs to hire more women, it shows he's completely out of touch. and possibly misleading in front of millions of american people about exactly what he did when he was running for governor. i would think he'd go over his facts and know a little bit more about how that happened. but perhaps he was just wrong. >> you mean like joe biden totally screwing up the chain of events in benghazi again and ignoring -- i mean these things happen in debates. >> okay. >> but as far as the binder situation goes, steve, maybe i'm off here. but when he said, i asked people to bring binders in, i mean that reminded me of something eisenhower would do. eisenhower had a rule. if i know you, you're not going to work for me. bring me in the best people that run the biggest companies and put them in binders and throw them on my desk and i'm going to cull through them and we're going to get the right people there. coming up next, we will ghae inside jfk's oval office. his daughter, caroline kennedy, will be here with new audio from

the 35th president. and later, msnbc nbc's j.j. ramberg will be here with her new book that gives essential tips for small business owners. but first, bill karins. >> i don't have a tip for him. go back to school? maybe? >> do something else? >> stop grabbing -- when you walk through the door. it's like -- i don't even bother. he opens the door for me with that look on his face i'm like i'm not walking through it. bill? >> i mean, if mika -- it's fair. if you're going do it to me, fair game. let's talk about severe weather last night. we did have some severe storms that rolled through arkansas and mississippi. we do have a couple thousand people without power. thankfully we didn't have too many injuries throughout the area. those storms have dissipated. a lot of people are wondering what the weather will be like in detroit today. they'll try to play that baseball game they couldn't do

last night at 4:00 this afternoon. rain is about to move through drought this morning but should be out of there by the time the game starts. today's forecast -- late today scattered storms, few of them on the strong side through virginia, north carolina, maybe some damaging winds. that's not going to be widespread though. big story is the windy conditions in the middle of the country. a little heads up. the storm intensifies off the east coast late tonight. tomorrow morning people traveling from new york city up to new england, expect heavy rain. of course with the leaves coming down on the trees, the roads could be a little slippery. that could be dangerous tomorrow morning. probably see significant airport delays there. joining us early on the west coast, rain moves in late today in seattle and portland. just a very warm day in southern california all the way down to arizona. can you believe it was 97 yesterday in los angeles? st. louis, little breezy for you today, but beautiful sunshine. enjoy your thursday. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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21 past the hour. a live look at white house, a beautiful day in washington. >> what happened to the red sox season? >> you're going to put it on her? >> she's here. >> joining us now, on set here in new york, caroline kennedy. caroline contributed to the new book "listening in -- the secret white house recordings of john f. kennedy" which includes more than two hours of taped conversations from jfk's oval office and cabinet room, including this phone call between president kennedy and

general dwight d. eisenhower discussing the cuban missile crisis. >> general, what about if the soviet union announces tomorrow, that if we attack cuba, that it is going to be nuclear war? and what's your judgment as to the chances they'll fire these things off if we invade cuba? >> oh, i don't believe that they will. >> you don't think they will. in other words, you would take that risk if the situation -- >> what can you do? if this thing is such a serious thing, here on our flank that we're going to be uneasy and we know what thing is happening now, all right, you've got to use something. something may make these people shoot them off. i just don't believe this will. >> yeah, all right. >> i'll say this -- i'd want to keep my own people very alert. >> yeah. i'll hang on tight. thanks a lot, general. >> those are incredible.

caroline kennedy -- >> can i just say, i've been reading about your dad my whole life, reading about this new appreciation for eisenhower. i've been reading about eisenhower over the -- that's just heavy sh-stuff. talk about this project. it is unbelievable. >> well, this project has been great, because my kids love it. older people love it. i think it really brings you -- we all want to know what's going on in the oval office and you wish you could hear these conversations. this is probably as close as we'll get. i think you really hear what's real and what's not and president eisenhower, obviously his military opinion was pretty valuable. for me, it was amazing how much they were thinking about berlin, how scary this was, how incredibly intense the whole situation was, which was 50 years ago this week.

>> it's also fascinating that your dad, like all incoming presidents, they look at the last president kind of -- come on, old guy get out of my way. then you hear the cuban missile crisis really brought them together where your dad was thinking -- okay. it's like the presidents club. you suddenly realize when once you're there, there are only a few people that know what you're going through. your dad obviously picked this up in this. >> especially eisenhower who obviously knew all these people and how they thought. i mean it's also just so interesting to read it during a campaign, because you don't know what's going to come up in the next administration. and how they're going to deal with what they're going to face. so you get a sense of how people approach problems. >> i like eisenhower's response. are they going to shoot knew nuclear missiles at us? "i don't think so." >> all the military officials were advocating war.

eisenhower, the great military leader, was a lot less enthusiastic. >> here's september 1963, a recording of martin luther king jr. in president kennedy's office after the march on washington and the deadly bombing in birmingham in that birmingham church that killed four girls. take a listen. >> now the real problem that we face is this. the negro community is about to reach a breaking point. there is a great deal of frustration and despair and confusion in the negro community, and there is a feeling of being alone and not being protected. if you walk the street, you aren't safe. if you stay at home, you are not safe, there is a danger of a bomb. if you're in church now it isn't safe. so the negro feels that everywhere he goes, if he remains stationary, he's in

danger of some physical violence. >> wow. on so many levels. i want to hear more about what happened in that conversation. >> well, there are incredible civil rights conversations in this book that kind of take you through the most dramatic moments from the desegregation of ole miss, then birmingham, then kind of working with -- figuring out the relationship. with the leaders of the movement and it's unbelievable -- you look back and you think some of this progress was inevitable and this really shows you how incredibly difficult and tense it was. >> this is a breathtaking historical document. this is no one's interpret tags of what happened 50 years ago. it is history as it happened. how did you get access to the tapes first of all and how do you whittle down a presidency to a few hours? >> well, the tapes have been opened over the years. with the last ones, there is a few in this book that haven't been released before but they've been available but they're raw data, just like any research

archive. so we wanted to make them accessible in a way that people could digest it, that they could hear it. so we picked -- we wanted to place it in context because it it is the 50th anniversary and it seemed like that would be a good way of celebrating that. so ted whitmer did a great job working with the archivists at library of picking out highlights that weren't just interesting but were significant and show the representative of the larger crises that were happening. so it is a combination of really good editing and the archivists know this stuff. archivists that work in the national archives across our system are incredible. >> as you listen to this, caroline, anything you heard change the way you looked at your own father? >> well, i feel lucky that there are so many records of him so that it's a way of connecting. but -- and also just seeing him at work is so interesting, because kids always want to know what their parents do at work. and your kids get to watch you on tv. >> but they don't.

>> they don't really watch. >> it's so interesting. it obviously made me really proud. so that was nice. >> just because people are going to -- their appetite is going to be whet by this, this is the book that's available. obviously transcripts are here. if people want to hear more of the audio -- >> they can go online to www.jfklibrary website and they can search through all 265 hours of tape. so this is a huge archive that is available and accessible but this is a more easily digestible form. hopefully people will use this, and then want to learn more. >> we have another recording. we'll listen to one more with journalist james cannon just days after john kennedy announced his run for office and the differences between him and his grandfather. take a listen. >> well, i mean the political type, i think it's hard work. my grand farther was a natural. loves to go out to dinner. loved to sing with the crowds. loved to go down, take the train

up and talk it to 18 people on a train. >> what makes you think you aren't, in a different context? >> i just happen to fit the times. my grandfather, his political career was limited partly because he was part of the immigrant group, who would not achieve success, but partly because he did do all these things. therefore, he never concentrated enough to get what he really wanted, which was either governor or senator. now it requires far more work, politics is far more serious business. >> your father was a little more removed emotionally than your grandfather, is it safe to say? >> yeah, i think so. >> he didn't want to sing with the crowds. >> he'd rather read a book on a plane than talk to the person next to me. i think it is really interesting because he talked about the 19th century in the senate versus the 20th. now we're in the 21st.

what kind of person will shape history. he had a sense that he was right for his time. so it's interesting because he wasn't elect president but he still kind of had that sense to go for it. >> as a kid growing up when you got into high school, got into -- was there a phase in your life where you decided i want to hear everything my dad had to say, i want to get into his head, i want to figure out who this man is that i loved as a dad, but lost early? are there still things that you're getting now that that personality is still evolving? >> well, i think in high school i wanted to sort of learn more about his policies and professional life, let's say. but otherwise, i think growing up in my family, the spirit of -- his spirit really was so alive in my aunts and uncles and so i think i really benefited from that. and it made me feel connected. and the stories i heard growing up. but my kids are now going through that process.

which is really interesting to watch. >> must be fun. >> this is absolutely fascinating. the book is "listening in, the secret white house recordings of john f. kennedy. "read an excerpt on our blog, mojo.msn mojo.msnbc.com. >> i think you should throw it from the mound. i think we should have a contest. >> i don't want the responsibility of hurting a poor catcher. by the way, she threw so hard, she knocked carlton fifk down. >> wow. >> you throw left, bat right? >> yeah. throw left, swing right maybe. >> caroline, thank you so much. we'll be right back. >> winston churchill once said democracy is the worst form of government except for all of the other systems that have never tried. it is certainly the most

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welcome back to "morning jo joe". here with us now, j.j. ramberg mark, the seventh anniversary of her weekend show on msnbc "your business" with the launch of her new book," it's your business -- 183 essential tips." >> there is reason for this and she's going to tell us why. >> -- "that will transform your small business." >> do not start with the question why it is 183. irv's got a special one for you. i'll give to you later. >> let's start with number one. i love the elevator pitch. >> yeah. this is one of the most important. number one, the chapter is about finding your funding. we talk about putting together

an elevator pitch to investors. but frankly, this is important in anything you do, which is when you're talking about your company or an idea that you're pitching, you need to be able to explain this in 30 seconds basically and when you're talking to an investor, it is different than when you're talk fog a customer or a partner or the media. so you need to sit down and think about how am i going to present my company depending on who the audience is. >> what about when you're talking to yourself? you talk about the need to focus on the why, whether you're in the office, the elevator or your room, thinking you're going to start this business. >> this comes from a guy named simon cynic who i met early on in my program. he said to me, look, everyone can say what your company does, but that doesn't connect people emotionally. what you need to do is explain why you do it. that's why you go to this stationery store instead of this stationery store. not because the product is so much better, but because of the emotion, the why you started this. >> i like number 40.

improve yourself confidence by standing differently. this applies to -- i hope any woman watching will listen to what you have to say. it sounds strange at first but it is absolutely true. >> it does. i was very cynical when we went to meet this woman who explained this to me. amy cutty is at harvard business school. she did a study that basically said you can stand in certain positions that releases testosterone in your body for both men and women. what that does is makes you more kf debt confident or before you are going into a meeting or on a show where you'll be nervous. stand in a room, put your arms out, put your legs out and take up a lot of space. again you'll feel silly but this will do something biologically that will make you more confident. or you can sit back -- i'm not going to do it here because i'm wearing a dress. basically arms behind your head, feet crossed on the table ceo style. >> good lord! i'll try that here on the show. >> when you're wearing pants. >> i have a feeling they'll be

very uncomfortable here at the table. oh, but that's the point. >> do you think this will finally give willie and i the self-confidence we need -- >> that's a problem at this table. >> i think there is a posture issue. >> afterwards you can fall in to my arms. you can trust fall. >> trust fall. let's not try that right now. >> what about bigger picture right now? your instinct might be, economy's not great right now, maybe i should hold off on my idea, wait until things pick up a little bit. would you jump in right now with a small business? >> if you have a good idea, it doesn't matter what the economy is doing. and right now is a good time because of technology, it can be pretty easy and pretty cheap to test your idea. if you have another job, don't necessarily give it up. test your idea out with people before you start it. but i wouldn't be scared off by the economy. >> money's pretty cheap right now. >> but hard to get, too. it's pretty hard right now to get a bank loan but there are all sorts of other places. can you go to microfinance organizations. you can do crowd lending. there are lots of other places

can you get money. >> like mark halperin who's just giving money away. >> people, right after they come off my show they go right to mark. >> we talk about mood and setting the right mood for your staff. >> uh-oh. >> joe scarborough, exhibit a. >> first joe's standing in the room doing these confidence exercises. >> wait, wait. you being facetious. >> i'm not being facetious. >> i'm a cheerleader except for the poor one or two people who run this show. >> number 41. do not share your bad mood with your staff. >> it is easy to come in and be sour after a bad day and be frowning and be annoyed with people. but if you are, it gives them license to all be the same way. basically fake it, smile, pretend you are in a good mood. >> number 49, tap the business school workforce. there is a lot of potential there. >> there is a free workforce, a

free very smart workforce for you. >> where do we find them? >> call a business school and say i want to talk to a marketing professor. say i have a marketing project that i need done and they will find students for you. when i was at business school i did marketing plan for someone, an hr study for netscape. we did so much free work and we had our grades on the line so i assure be, everything we did was as good as what mckinzie did. >> never say no to a potential customer. that's a good one. >> yeah. i learned this from kimberly and katherine cork. they own a pilates studio here in new york. i was basically sitting in the reception area one day an someone came in and said do you guys have yoga here? and our receptionist said well we have cardiolates. i thought that's so interesting, she didn't say no even though they didn't have yoga. i asked the owners about this. they said it is all by design. basically you never want to say no to someone.

you want to open up new conversations, not close one. >> find a new way. find some way not to say no. >> yeah. i try this. basically the idea behind this book is, i started my company good search with my brother ken the same time i started my show. and so these were all the tips when i was interviewing these thousands of small business owners where i thought that is so smart and so easy. it's not inspirational, it's not big picture, it's really practical, really actionable and makes a change -- >> that's why there's 183. >> 183. your show's doing great. speaking of 183, i'll know an answer -- she does her show worldwide 183 million people watch. >> double that, joe. double. >> is it double now? you're going to have to come out with a sequel. >> watch jj on "your business" on msnbc sundays at 7:30 a.m. congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> the book -- "it's your business, 183 tips that will

transform your small business." >> it will save your life.

46 past the hour. let's take another look at the morning papers. los angeles times, the militia commander to led the deadly raid on the u.s. consulate in benghazi has been identified as a former political prisoner. fbi agents have been shown a cell phone picture of the commander at the scene of the attack, according to libyans familiar with the situation. >> "the new york times," a 21-year-old college student is charged with trying to detonate a van carrying what he believed were explosives and he was going to try to blow up the federal reserve building in manhattan.

authorities say the man came to the united states on a student visa in january and he did it with the sole purpose of launching a terror attack. police say that he even took classes in cyber security before trying to contact what he thought were al qaeda operatives. they ended up being undercover agents for the fbi. >> detroit news, after years of promises that electronic cars would end the nation's reliance on imported oil, sales have barely gotten off the ground. ford motor company say it sold only 228 focus electric cars in september and early this week, a123 systems declared bankruptcy. >> boy, that is stunning. the volt running into a lot of trouble over at gm. up next, the best of late night. americans are always ready to work hard for a better future.

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now as you probably know, there's no such thing as a first lady debate but that did not stop the following people from weighing in on it. >> who do you think won the

debate between ann romney and michelle obama last night? >> i have to say michelle obama. she really did a lot better. her speech was more grafted in. it was more finely well cut. >> definitely ann romney. i think she's very classy and wonderful lady. >> was there anything she said during the debate in particular in. >> no. i just like how she looks. >> michelle. >> why do you say that? >> because. >> you think she did a better job? >> yeah. absolutely. i mean she's amazing -- yeah. she connected with people. >> is there anything in particular she said that spoke to you? >> no. in general -- i just saw a little bit of it to tell you honestly. i had something else going on so i didn't see the whole debate but i saw the personality came out. >> candy, what governor romney said just isn't true. >> it's alive! it's alive! woo! woo!

yes! president barack obama decided to attend this debate. and the two candidates could finally have a truthful, substantive discussion about how much they [ bleep ] hate each other! >> governor, we have actually produced more oil -- >> no, no. how much did you cut licenses and permits on federal land and federal waters? >> we can actually make a profit. and production is up. >> production is down. >> no, it isn't. >> production of oil on land is down 14%. >> governor, what you're say something just not true. >> you'll get your chance in a moment. you're still speaking. >> i believe you meant to add, "mother [ bleep ]." [ bleep ]. >> we're told that they have practiced to such a level of detail that he even was preparing how he sits and there's a good reason for that. he is going to be sitting on a barstool and mitt romney is a mormon so he doesn't spend a lot of time on barstools, according

to his aides, because he doesn't drink. >> yes. it's true. that's true. you should know that. only people who drink know how to sit on stools. that's why, whenever you see someone successfully sitting on one, that is an early sign of alcoholism. seek help, please. the guy falling off the stool, that's your designated driver. and that's why last night's debate, i got to tell you -- i mean it was such a challenge for mitt. lack of stool experience. i mean where would mitt have seen one? his kitchen counter? everybody knows the romney family eats standing at podiums. >> monday and tuesday next week, we're live in boca for the third and final presidential debate. come back racks downtown eatery and tavern monday and tuesday

morning. we will be there starting at 5:30 a.m. get there early. you might even meet mika. i'm not going to promise anything. but you might meet mika. >> change the name of that. >> to what? >> i don't know, what was your idea? >> what? up next -- what, if anything -- >> you can't say that. you can't even mouth that on tv. >> -- did we learn today. with the spark cash card from capital one,

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welcome back to "morning joe." what did we learn today, willie? >> i think i learned what mark halperin learned here, which is that you can get pizza delivered 24 hours a day. every day for the rest -- >> that is so unhealthy. joe, no, don't do it. >> we're celebrating. >> what are we celebrateing? >> the big wedding. >> willie? >> we're celebrating julia sharkey, david buckley getting married tomorrow. my little sister-in-law. i've known her since she was zero and now she's getting married. >> we don't need the pizza. >> pronto pizza, by the way. >> what did you learn mika? >> i learned that -- i actually predict -- i'll make a bet with you -- that these polls pertaining to women will