richard wolffe. mitt romney has been coming under hear fire for the lack of specifics in his tax plan. why? because we've never seen anything like it. >> my plan is not like anything that's been tried before. >> indeed. we haven't seen anything like it because we we really haven't seen it at all. with the election only 19 days awa awa away the romney-ryan tickets struggle to explain the plan. >> the math doesn't add up. >> it does. >> where are the specifics of how you get to this math? isn't that an issue? >> well, the specifics are these, which is those principles i described are the heart of my policy. >> if you cut those tax rates for everybody 20%, it costs $5 trillion over ten years, true? >> not in the least bit true. >> how much would it cost? >> revenue neutral. >> you haven't given me the math. >> i don't have the time. it would take me too long to go through all of the math.

>> if somehow the numbers don't add up, would you be willing to look again at a 20% -- >> of course they add up. i -- i was -- i was someone who ran businesses for 25 years. >> you don't go to congress and say, here's all of our details, take it or leave it. you say, this is my framework. >> where's the leadership in this? you're a numbers guy. >> no, we're saying -- >> right. and here's what i know, matt. if you say to congress, take it or leave it, here's my plan, you don't get thing donz. >> the campaign has been reluctant to do the math it's because the numbers themselves just keep changing. >> you could say everybody's going to get up to a 17,000 deduction. >> make up a number. 25,000, 50,000. everybody gets -- i'll pick a number -- $25,000. >> the latest headache for romney is the nonpartisan tax policy center has done the math on each of romney's scenarios capping deductions at 17,000,

50,000. they say it doesn't add up. 50,000 cap results in $760 billion of revenue while $25,000 cap would net 1.3 trillion. how about a 17,000 limit? that would raise $1.7 trillion. but here is the key takeaway. eliminating all, repeat, all deductions. good-bye home mortgage deduction, good-bye charitable tax giving credit. would only result in $2 trillion worth of revenue leaving mitt romney and his tax plan $3 trillion in the hole. but what would the tax policy center know? they're just a bunch of economists. >> there's no economist can say mitt romney's tax plan adds 5 trillion if i say i will not add to the deficit with my tax plan. >> should we be surprised at the fuzzy math? perhaps not. governor romney began his race for the white house in 2011 saying he wouldn't touch income tax rates at all. according to his website at time, mitt romney believes in holding the line against

increases in marginal tax rates. no mention of cutting them at all. but a few months later in the heat of the primary his started to waver. >> i let it get down to 25%. ultimately let's get it down as low as we possibly can, if it's 20, 25%, but paying more than 25% is taking too much out of our pocket. >>s late february romney completed list 180-degree turn. >> i'm going to make an across the board 20% reduction in marginal individual income tax rates. 20% down across the board. >> which leads us to his present difficulties. john heilemann, the math question seems to continue to bedevil romneyland. the larger question, as far as this being a campaign issue, is the american public concerned about tax rates or is it concerned about deficits? does this play on the campaign trail? >> well, i think that they may be concerned about something completely different than that

which is jobs. and obviously tax rates and deficits have effect on the jobs picture. but the -- the president has had the winning hand on taxes for a long time. and it's a weird thing, right? traditionally republicans promising to cut taxes wins the argument. the president said i want to raise taxes and has gone into the teeth of that, raising taxes on the wealthy. romney's plan is obviously vague and ridiculous. we can talk later about the concept of dynamic scoring the magic pixie dust that can make all of the internal mathematical contradictions fly away. in the end a lot of voters, the truth is neither the tax issue specifically, nor the deficit issue specifically, is really what they're focused on. what they're focused on more who has a credible plan to make america grow faster and make wages rise and put people back to work. and those other pieces are maybe part of that puzzle but that's what they want to hear and it's

the issue that seems to matter most to voters especially the swing state voters who haven't made up their mind yet. >> talking about credible plan, the back and forth on the numbers question, the really awkward answers that you get from both paul ryan and mitt romney on specifics, the fact you have nonpartisan economy ifs saying the math doesn't work, you have $3 trillion hole here, hoe mu how much does that undermine romney's case as mr. fix-it? >> let's remember why he came up with this in tax promise. at the time, when he said he was going to cut across the board tax rates he was losing to a guy with a plain called 999. he has his five-en point plan. >> haven't done that in a long plan. >> the other guy was beating him with 9-9-9 flat tax. he was a outlier who seeped reasonable, who seemed to be in the realm of mathematical reality. at this point, he should have already done his flip-flop, said

i'm going to be serious now about the deficit. and he's just trying to do it too late. you're in a situation where he's plainly contradicting himself. if you listen to the last debate, he said that overall tax rates, overall contribution of wealthy people to tax rates would stay the same but numbers would come down. that contradicts paul ryan saying r saying revenue neutral. revenue neutral means the same amount of money. it's a problem of his own making. >> we have to pause on our mitt romney discussion for a quick moment. president obama is in the swing state of new hampshire. he's speaking now the a rally in manchest manchester's veteran park. let's listen. they can buy companies loaded up with debt, lay off workers, strip their pensions, send their jobs overseas. they can still make money doing it. turning a big profit. it's the same philosophy that's been squeezing middle class families for more than a decade. it's the same philosophy that got us into this mess. for the last four years i've watched the american people with

their resilience and resolve overcoming the pain and struggle of dealing with the consequences of the worst financial crisis since the great depression. we worked too hard to let this country go down that path again. >> four more years. four more years. four more years. four more years. four more years. four more years. >> new hampshire, we cannot grow this economy from the top down. this economy grows from the midd middle out. when everybody has ladders of opportunity, if they work hard they can succeed, they can get ahead. that's how we move ahead. when workers have a decent living, have money in their

pockets, that means they're out there as customers buying goods and that means businesses do better and businesses make more profits and hire more workers. that's how you grow an economy. that's why we can't go backward. that's why we have got to move forward. that's why i'm running for a second term as president of the united states. you know, on tuesday governor romney took another stab at trying to sell us this $5 trillion tax cut that favors the wealthy. he took another swing at it and he whiffed. instead of telling us how he'd pay for if it, he said i'll let you know after the election. and then when i asked him about it, he said, i'm a businessman, i know the numbers will work.

tack my word for it. now, here -- i'm going to let you in on a little tip. when a politician tells you he's going to wait until after the election, it's not because their plan is so good that they don't want to spoil the secret. that's usually not what's going on. >> that was president obama at a rally in manchester, new hampshire. next stop new york city for a taping of "the daly show" the president seizing on the same mathematical problems we were discussing. he did not use the word "sketchy" but did say mitt romney's trying to sell you faulty products. >> and touched on is what the underlying debate beneath the numbers, which is how do you grow an economy. do you grow it by giving tax cuts to the wealthy as romney argues, they and their wisdom will create jobs because they'll be enriched and have all of this extra money laying around that

they don't have any place to put in the cayman islands, or do you, as president obama said, give it to the customers basically and let them grow the economy by shopping and buying things, which then you know creates more demand. so those are two very different models that are contesting here. >> but you know, the president also remains the american public -- i don't know what degree this message is penetrating -- mitt romney basically wants to continue the fiscal policy of george w. bush and the president said now, you don't want to put the country on a path that we were once on four years ago, i'm paraphrasing terribly because i'm not running for president. in the debate on wednesday, tuesday, i don't know what day it is anymore, tuesday, mitt romney asked about the differences between him and george w. bush and i thought the answer was incredibly telling. he started talking about oil in venezuela. the issues you want your republican candidate to have he will not set the country in the same path the last republican president set country on.

>> that is the fundamental truth of the campaign that's been obscured i think by romney doing -- a classic business presentation style, right, when you're asked a question at a business presentation you respond with a number. i have three things to say about that, here they are you present three macro things, it makes you sound serious. romney's counting on the business presentation style that herman cain used. i give you a number 9-9-9. that makes me sound like i'm give you specifics even when i'm not. he really just wants to do everything bush did. that's been the republican economic philosophy for 30 years. they're not going to change it because they have a din guy as their standard bearer. cutting taxes for the wealthy is their basic economic principle for everything. it's a fix all for when the economy's good, when the economy's bad, cutting taxes for the rich. he has to present that to the public as if it's something new. barack obama's job to break down the romney numbers bedazzlement into regular people terms. >> how do you know it's that

dazzling anymore? i thought there was a transparency to the five-point plan when romney kept going back to that as a mean in the debate. >> there is. but there's another fundamental reality in the race, which is for people -- this is what i was trying to allude to at the beginning, president obama's losing on the economy to mitt romney. and people are believing that mitt romney's better at fixing the broader economy. that's what the polling shows, except with rare outliers is the case. the tax issue, which the president wins on, he's not been able to take that and make that people believe that romney still not better than he is on the economy, and a big part of the problem with that is that president obama is not putting on a broader scale his argument is, effectively at the debate the other night i want a second term i want to keep doing what i have been doing for the last four years and this a wrong track country. the country's getting better but 5% thinks we're on the wrong track. the status quo is not acceptable to voters now. to argue, i agree with the

substantive argument saying he's an extech of bush but it's undercut to some extent by -- and this is why president obama said i want -- he's gone back rather than saying he has a great new plan for the future he says i want to extend what president clinton did. he's got made some headway on that. >> the alternative is so bad you can't take it, once the romney argument. >> at this moment it doesn't look like -- the president's failure on this point has been to make romney's pate ent lack of credibility on the tax issue undermine his lead on the economic issue. and make that broader case. he's not made it. and as i say, he's lost -- >> not able to complete the two but they're inherently linked. we'll talk more about the president's rigs and plan fvisi the country. romney continues to deal with bindergate, wife ann romney and son josh visit "the view" and the shake upin camp romney that gave tag a prominent role.

>> what is like for you to hear the president of the united states call your dad a liar? how do you react to that. >> well, jump out of your seat and you want to rush down the debate stage and take a swing at him. >> ann's turn on the view and why her husband canceled on a high-risked and sharp-tongued show, like this show, next on "now." with the spark cash card from capital one, sven's home security gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! how does this thing work? oh, i like it! [ garth ] sven's small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! woo-hoo!!! so that's ten security gators, right? put them on my spark card! why settle for less? testing hot tar... great businesses deserve the most rewards! [ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day!

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by governor mitt romney's measure his wife underwent a trial by fire this morning. ann romney entered the lion's den into the belly of the beast

and back. ann romney went on "the view." caught on camera during the infamous 47% fundrai-raiser tap here's how romney sized up that panel of host. >> "the view" is fine although "the view" is high risk because of the five women on it, all but one is conservative, four are sharp-tongued and not conservative. whoopee goldburg in particular. >> after that released in september, one of those left-leaning silver-tongued women taunted romney. >> this is just preseason. this is an exhibition game. if you can't handle four-sharp tongued women how are you going to handle the country? >> apparently romney can't handle four-sharped tongued women. earlier the romney campaign canceled has experience on the show citiing scheduling conflics instead he sent in his wife ann to face the tough questions. >> one of the things with your husband when he was governor he was pro-choice. i wonder what your views are.

were you the same way when he was governor? have you changed? i'm sure you've had discussions about this. >> you know, the good news is, i'm not running for office and i don't have to say what i feel. but i am pro-life. i'm happy to say that. mitt's always been a pro-life person. he governed when he ran a pro-choice. >> and yet, as mitt romney disavows the bastion of tough talking liberal ladies his campaign is in a desperate bid to repair his standing among women. bindergate exploded online 15,000 people following while binders full of women has 300,000 likes. romney's women problem is actually nothing new. it's been dogging him for nearly two decades since ted kennedy released this ad. >> more facts about mitt romney's business record. fact, as head of bain capital, romney hired only one woman among 40 top managers. the globe said the team he put together is exclusively male. romney's answer, there aren't

enough women to recruit who are qualified. >> today the romney campaign is launching a we know mitt bus tour of women who worked with romney while he was governor and yesterday the candidate made this pitch on the stump. >> this president has failed america's women. they've suffered in terms of getting jobs. they've suffered in terms of falling into poverty. as i go across the country and ask women, what can i do to help? what they speak about day in, day out help me find a good job or a good job for my spouse. >> it seems romney's eager to speak to women about women but perhaps from a safer distance, from behind a campaign podium. joy, it's worth noting everybody's scrambling for the female vote. >> of course. >> we flow the obama campaign's made its own series of outreaches. as far as mitt romney's overtures to ladies in general, setting aside bindergate for the moment i found it to be stiff

and auctiwkward. i want to talk about ann romney's appearance on "the view," a saying i'm not running for office i don't have to say what i think, you want to think the campaign spouse is open and honest about the beliefs. but the second piece mitt romney is pro-life but governor earned as pro-choice person. that seems to me i guess hip krat c hypocritical but with the trite choose you want to believe someone's governing with princeble. she in a very upscale way explained that her husband is cravin, that he will govern and do whatever it takes to win, right? i think the problem with the romneys is that they do kind of have that feel of a couple that arrived in 2012 in a delorean from the 1950s, right? they -- >> or a studebaker. >> or a studebaker. they sound very retro. they have a very old world 1950s sort of vibe about them. and i thought it was interesting

that romney, during that debate said that, when he became governor he had to have people find me some ladies. you worked at bain capital, there were one or two, dint you think of them? no one from harvard that was a woman that might be qualified to work in his cabinet they? he had to send somebody out find a bind. >> it dawned me as governor this was an issue. it's like, the pay equity and you know gender balance in the workplace didn't occur until early 2000s? >> it's trinteresting to rememb the binders came in up answer to question about equal pay for women. using the binder to duck that question. i think way he tried to duck it was interesting, and the same thing happened in the debate with the vice presidential debate with paul ryan. he was saying forget the policy issue because i don't believe that government ought to do these things. rich people ought to do these things. people ought to do these things

personally out of the goodness of their own heart. and so he gave an example of himself doing it say, when i was governor i did this. first it was wrong, he didn't go to the women, they came to him, so on, so forth. >> exactly. >> that opened the door to his own personal record. he's wielded a great deal of power as employ somewhere had ample communiopportunity to mak choice. that's a bad place for him to go and in answer to that question. >> i argue that the -- what romney's trying to do now, vis-a-vis whip's issues is say, what women care about is the economy. but then once you start talking about women and the economy and fiscal matters you sort of walk into this new -- not new but relatively new obama strategy which is to say, look, reproductive rights access to contraception, these are economic issues for women and if you look at where mitt romney stands on those issues, richard, it is not -- >> i'm not sure where he stands. it's his position on equal pay. what is the position? his advisers as surrogates have

had real difficulty doing what they call clarifying his comments. he didn't support lilly ledbetter and he didn't oppose it either. he has no real position on them. if you try to listen to this repositioning and unpositioning and whatever he's doing, as a conservative, you'd be troubled by all of this. what he's saying with the binders, you know, whatever he's saying with the binders, seen seengsseengowe sengslily affirmative action. what ann romney said today about life issues is certainly not conservative. on a matter of core principle and values to conservatives, he's willing to do whatever he has to do when he governs. not that he's cravin, he has no principle when governing. he can govern as pro-life or pro-choice guy. who knows? >> ted kennedy said i'm pro-choice, my opponent is multiple choice.

>> to your -- the thing you are getting at a second ago is fundamental. the reason the president was ahead by five or six pointed in september he was doing -- you did a segment on the show at the time -- he was overperforming with white, blue collar women, waitress moms. >> according to the waitress moms as coined by ron brownstein. >> so the problem he's had since denver he's lost some of the advantage. so now you have a debate that is focused on women and it's focused on women who have particular kinds of economic concerns. the president before, the president's campaign thought, they could win and maintain their gender gap by focusing on the social component of contraceptive plan, they made a shift, you're right. they're not wrong on the substance of it but it's a political shift to try to take what our senate issues that have a social cast to them and also an economic component and refocus on the economic component. mitt romney's saying that's not what the women actually care.

what they care about is jobs and gas prices because a lot of white working class women in the swing states got to get their kids to school and they don't like $4 gasoline. they're competing theories -- this is what this is about, though -- about competing theories how to win the narrow slice of voter whose are a disproportionate part of the swing. there are people for obama a month ago and shifted over to romney, obama's got to drag those people back. i don't know who's right on the issue. but that is the competition. >> we are speaking about women monolithically and certainly some part of -- waitress moms are -- i put that in quote -- are some part of the electorate they're both trying to reach. there are women, whether soccer moms, let's say, married whiome not in the same demographic bucket hear about mitt romney's position on the blunt amendment or a constitutional ban on abortion. and i think that is -- those are issues that are significant enough -- >> but they're voting for the president already.

>> i actually -- anecdotally, i have spoken to republican women who agree with mitt romney on the economy, they do not like the president and hear where mitt romney is on abortion and contraception, not coverage of contraception but the idea that one day, maybe we won't have access to contraception in all 50 states and that's scary to them. >> you know to the point that john was making about the economy, that's why equal pay is so key. we're not talking about lawyers asking for equal pay. lilly ledbetter was precisely talked in the vehicle you're talking about. >> that's why the president is leaning on that. >> the governor would not repeal the lilly ledbetter act. he was opposed to it at time. the next day, he said i was wrong when i said last night governor opposed the lilly ledbetter act. he never weighed in on it. as president he would not seek to repeal it. the more things change, the more they stay the change. talking 20/20, not the race but vision. is president obama laying out a

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that the president still done have an agenda for a second term. don't you think that it's time for him to finally put together a vision of what he'd do in the next four years if he were elected? i mean he's got to come up with that over this weekend because there's only one debate left on monday. >> that was governor romney yesterday claiming the president hasn't outlined what he would do in a second term. well, romney's already vague plans appear to be in a constant state of shall we say flux, some say the current vision being put forward by president obama lacks the specificity and boldness of the one that helped get him elected four years ago. this time around, there is no mention of tackling climate change new york strategy for how he'll reform immigration and little public talk of the upcoming fiscal cliff. the reason both candidates may be avoiding specifics, the details aren't pretty. >> talking about the future and being honest is not great politics because what this country's going to need in the

future to fix itself are things people don't really want to hear about, which are more revenues, which is less government spending, which is fixing the deficit and all of our structural problems and deleveraging. it's not -- it's not a happy story. >> it's not a happy story, john. but we started off the show, and you were mentioning the lack of vision that the president had put forward for the american public. we're talking about whether that's a liability. >> it's a liability. you know look, this goes back a ways, i thought when the democratic convention came, given how horribly the republicans had done in answering this question, putting forward like a positive specific agenda for what they yes going to do for the next four year i thought president obama would step into the void. he didn't do that in this convention speech. he didn't do that in the debate in denver. he didn't do that the other night. he did a lot of things well at hofstra but he didn't do that. you listed a bunch of things. it's the craziest thing in the world that this fiscal cliff is

coming in january, it's not an abstract thing. it right down the street. and we can see that it's looming there. every economist in the country says if we go off the cliff, we'll go in another recession. president obama's not talking about. mitt romney's not talking about it. it's not abstract. it's -- you know hours after election day, and steve rattner's right. entitlement cuts are not popular, raising taxes is not pop lular but everything you ha to talk about on dealing with the fiscal cliff is not popular. both candidates are in a mutual pact on that issue. >> it's not because it's not popular the dynamics will change dramatically depending on who's elected. >> exactly the president has more leverage -- the president has more leverage either way. if he has a second term he has more leverage with house republicans in the lame duck and the dynamics coming. they basically said in congress, wait until november 7th to find

out what happens. >> i find it fascinate, within the beltway, those who follow there is we are dying to hear more specifics about the fiscal cliff. ordinary voters on main street want to know which guys will help me get a job or will improve the economy. they want basic. we have an economy that need fixing. i think that the president's first job, number one, defend last four years re-elects are not -- he could paint a wonderful vision of what he'll do on climate change pap that's not his immediate concern. his immediate concern is explaining why it would be dangerous to elect this other guy because he'll take us off on the wrong court and defend his record. >> there's a difference -- i'd like -- well, there's a difference between the fiscal cliff being part of a vision and there's immigration reform and tax reform and energy reform. >> or a job strategy. >> he said that. >> eric, when we talk about the left and what it wants from the president, i mean, there were a lot of dreams that were sort of put on the table and floated in

the ether when the president was running in 2008. that boldness is not there. are his feet going to be held to the fire for that or do you need that optimism? >> i think you are starting to see sole of that james carville saying we need that agenda. look, what you're seeing in the race is that romney's not running against president obama. he doesn't want to run against president obama because he loses in that race. he wants to run against the recession. when he does that, he does very well. obama doesn't want to run against romney. he wants to run against what george w. bush, he vaguely wants to run on his record and he does have a record and he does have the agenda from last time, which is incomplete. i think people know what he wants to do and has been unable to do. the question is what's going to be different. what's your plan to get this done particularly if you still have a gridlocked congress that's obstructing you at every turn. one of the most surprising things on the jobs front he hasn't made more of the things like he's tried to do the jobs ability. he could say clearly i have a

plan, everybody said this would have increased spending, jobs and the republicans said no. now he put it out knowing that he would say no, that's why he did it. still he made the gesture and could point to it and show clearly that romney's own ticket through paul ryan were the ones who said no way we're going to do that. >> the question of what he can get done, which we touched on, if the congress is basically the same as it is now, which is to say dominated in the house by republicans and held by the dems in the senate. richard, optimistically speaking, are we going to see tax reform and immigration reform? anything? buhler? >> there's one shot to do two things if he's lucky. you know, what we saw in 2004, president bush won, he said i've got all of this political capital. even before he reached the end of 2004, it was clear that he had no control over his own party and not nearly as much political capital as he thought. his big shot social security reform died. he really had nothing of any substance domestically to speak

of. this president came in with a seven-point win, historic victory new york honeymoon, got two republican votes for the recovery act, time of national crisis. he'll get the fiscal cliff dealt with in some fashion. maybe there's punting on bigger tax reform. and if republicans think they need to win over latino voters, maybe a tiny shot of the dream act and that's it. >> one very big thing by doing nothing, the end of the bush tax cuts for the wealthy. you shouldn't underestimate how huge that is. talking about $5 trillion. you know that's going to come flowing into the federal government. he's going to have the upper hand just through an action. >> that won't happen because they'll restore all of the tax cuts for the middle income earners as soon as the bush tax cuts expire they'll revote in. it won't be 5 trillion. >> medicare, that's important. people need to understand voucherized medicare. >> talking about before, it is

democratic pollsters, people like you mentioned james carville, stan greenberg, going around the country, talking to swing voters. swing voters are telling them it's a problem the president's not laying out a specific plan for the future. they're saying it over and over. >> the campaign reached a tipping point where the president has to offer a bold narrative policy and choice to win re-election, that was after the first debate. we'll see maybe if the bold choices come up in third debate. born after the death of her iconic father but robert kennedy looms in her life. her focus on her mother ethyl, that's coming up next. [ male announcer ] this is anna, her long day teaching the perfect swing begins with back pain and a choice. take advil, and maybe have to take up to four in a day. or take aleve, which can relieve pain all day with just two pills. good eye.

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>> it was. we made a bet right away about who could get down the mountain faster. >> who won? >> i'm not going to tell you. >> we will talk with ethel's daughter rory about her film, her mother and the kennedy mystique when she joins us on "now." i've worked hard to build my family. and also to build my career. so i'm not about to always let my frequent bladder urges, or the worry my pipes might leak get in the way of my busy lifestyle. that's why i take care, with vesicare. once-daily vesicare can help control your bladder muscle and is proven to treat overactive bladder with symptoms of frequent urges and leaks day and night. if you have certain stomach or glaucoma problems, or trouble emptying your bladder, do not take vesicare. vesicare may cause allergic reactions that may be serious. if you experience swelling of the face, lips, throat or tongue, stop taking vesicare and get emergency help.

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oh, hey alex. just picking up some, brochures, posters copies of my acceptance speech.

great! it's always good to have a backup plan, in case i get hit by a meteor. wow, your hair looks great. didn't realize they did photoshop here. hey, good call on those mugs. can't let 'em see what you're drinking. you know, i'm glad we're both running a nice, clean race. no need to get nasty. here's your "honk if you had an affair with taylor" yard sign. looks good. [ male announcer ] fedex office. now save 50% on banners. i found myself wanting to tell my mother's story about the life she shared with daddy and the life she shared with us, her children. a personal story, but because her life was intertwined with history, more than that. there was just one problem.

>> why should i have to answer all of these questions? >> well, we're making a documentary about you. not a bad idea. >> that was the clip from the new documentary "ethel" which looks at life of ethel kennedy the widow of robert kennedy. a reluctant subject, having stayed out of the subject and away from interviewers for year. a story of not only historic significance but strength. ethel kennedy lived through a series of tragedies which left her raising 11 children following the asass flati sassa her husband 44 years ago. great to see you on set. >> thank you. good to be here. >> the documentary premieres hbo tonight. everybody i know is very excited about it. the kennedy clan, the kennedy mystique a powerful one in the american imagination. tell us how you decided to make

this movie and your mom's initial reaction. that's a great bit. >> you get a sense over there. hbo had approached me to make the documentary about my mother and i said no at first. they were very persistent, sheila evans and i kept saying no and she kept saying yes. i figured i'll ask my mother, she'll say yes, there's no way she'll do an interview. she hasn't done one in 25 years and never told her life story and has been reluctant to do so. high called her, i asked her and she said yes. >> she's 84. looks incredible in the video and has incredible stories to tell. a couple of things, just a couple of points. she was raised a republican. and a very devout catholic. i love to know what her attitude is towards the role of faith in the public square these days as it is used by the republican party in its modern inneration. >> right. i don't like to talk for my mother on these issues. but faith has played a huge role

in her life. my mother's an interesting combination because she's very traditional in certain ways but she has comfort in speaking to authority and questioning authority and so i think in terms of religion, she is comfortable questioning religion and the role that the church plays in people's lives and she doesn't agree with everything that the catholic church has done. and i think she has issues with how religion has been used in politics observe the years. but again i don't want to speak for her. she certainly is comfortable questioning it. >> in terms of politics, too, the changing role of public servants and the way that america regards public servants is something we talk about on the show. obvious lit kennedys a huge amount elevate and sort of underscore the importance of serving your country. and i guess i wonder, you have a nephew running for office, man n. people in your clan have been

office holders what you make of that and the changing attitudes of being in the government and serving in pub like life. >> i have huge admiration for who go into public service and who are involved in electoral politics. i think there's a lot of sacrifice. but i think you can also make such a difference and you know, i think that you can really change the course of history as we saw with my father and my uncle and my uncle teddy, and you can -- you have so much power and influence in in that position. i also think there are a whole range of ways that people can get involved and sometimes it can be at a community level, sometimes it can be within a family. sometimes it can be you know i've chosen to make social issue documentaries and love what i do and i hope that that makes some contribution along the way. you know certainly my siblings have chosen different paths to give back and there are a lot of different ways to do that these

days. >> a lot of great kennedy family stories that are in the documentary. one favorite, part of it is according to the documentary, robert f. kennedy would come home, sit at table after visiting impovished counties in the south and say to his kids as they were sitting around the dining room table, we're very lucky, incredibly fortunate. that sort of -- that thread of values flowed through every part of the kennedy legacy and especially legislatively, eric. >> i think, correct me if i'm wrong, it's always seemed that bobby's experience in the south and in appalachia awakened something in him. >> yes. >> it's not like he went there with a preformed idea. >> right. >> le went there and had his eyes opened to something he hadn't fully grasped and that animated the remainder of his life and public service. >> i think that's absolutely true. i think that one of the things that was extraordinary about my father and my mother as well as

their ability to change over time. and there was so much change happening for the country during the 1960s. you know i think one of the reasons that people can identify with my father and my mother is because they were evolving during that tile too. certainly his trip to the mississippi delta, appalachia had a huge iannfluence on him. people weren't aware people were starving to death in our own country at that time. very few people knew that. for him to come back from that trip, having seen kids with distended stomachs and not enough food to eat, he was outraged. genuinely outraged. i think another moment in the film that i really appreciate is the letters that my father would write, you know, at these extraordinary historical moments, integration of the university of alabama and also after my uncle jack died, too, the children in the wake of

these convenients talking to them about what the meaning of it was. i think it speaks so deeply to his commitments, to both social justice and also his love and respect for the children. >> i was going to say, fatherhood, to document that for your children. i would say the struggles of the poor in the country something we are not looking at with the clearest of eyes, that we're just aware of in a broader sense. thank you to rory kennedy. "ethel" hbo at 9:00 p.m. i will be there with a bucket of popcorn. thank you to the panel, john, er eric, joy, richard. thank you all. that is all for us. see you back here tomorrow at noon eastern 9:00 a.m. pacific. a packed, big fat friday. joined by chris hayes, melissa harris-perry, andrew ross sorkin, ben smith and wisconsin

kingle candidate, rob zurbin. "andrea mitchell reports" is next. americans are always ready to work hard for a better future.

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