fighting for peace. that's george mcgovern. we have lost him. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. right now, msnbc's coverage of the presidential debate continues with my colleague rachel maddow. after eight years of george w. bush, america made a clear choice. >> bomb iran, bomb, bomb, bomb, any ya. >> in our last election, war was at the center of the debate. >> at the time when the war started, you said it would be quick and easy. you knew where the weapons of mass destruction were. you were wrong. >> four years has gone by. the war in iraq, over. bin laden, dead. the middle east and revolution in chaos. dictators overthrown and a new american election that was never supposed to hinge on foreign policy comes down to a last debate on foreign policy.

>> you said in the rose garden the day after the attack it was an act of terror. it was not a spontaneous demonstration? >> the polls are tied. the election is 15 days away. voting is already underway in ne nearly every swing state. and it is because of that shear competitive need that america's longest war still grinding on and our veterans and our diplomacy and our role in the world is thrust back to center stage. msnbc's coverage of the third and final presidential debate begins right now. happy debate night. thanks for spending it with us.

the contenders will face-off in a neutral setting to try to earn the vote of the few undecided voters in the last few swing states. with 15 days until election day, four million americans have already cast their vote. the race could not be closer. i'm rachel maddow here in new york city along with ed shults. lawrence o'donnell is in the spin room for us and we're joined by chris matthews who is at the debate site. it's tied. where do you think the biggest opportunity for either of them is tonight welcome. >> for the president, it's a huge opportunity tonight. for all these three debates, he's paid the price of incumbency. he's had to explain why it's been such a rocky road back from the difficult times of 2009.

so he's had to pay the price of incumbency up until tonight. tonight he will begin to exploit the advantages of incumbency. in an area that the american people have become to respect. for four years now, he's carried the nuclear football. he's accepted the responsibility of the presidency. he's not really fail ed us. he's succeeded in so many ways, including ending the iraq war. in capturing and killing in the moment osama bin laden, something that w.'s predecessor could never do. he's focused foreign policy on eliminating al qaeda and he's not created a big tension between us and the al qaeda world. he's done all these things. tonight he will begin to exploit incumbency in the foreign policy area. this responsibility of being president is something romney doesn't have an inch of knowledge about. of being president.

tonight barack obama can show not just the sophistication of that experience, but the wisdom that comes from it. he should be able to win tonight convincingly and exploit that victory tonight in winning the presidency. >> chris, tonight we're looking at not just what's going on in the very short-term between these candidates, but also bigger picture stories about american foreign policy. for the better part of a generation, we've had a lot of consensus between the two parties. in my view during the last presidency before this one, during the george bush presidency, we saw something emer emerge. i don't know whether the republican party is going to stick with that or if they are going to revert to more centrist view that prevailed before. do you have any sense which direction mitt romney wants to go on this? he's talked so little about foreign policy.

>> well, it seems to me that he's broken with one tradition, which is when the united states had the catastrophe like on 9/11 and everyone went in it together. nobody jumped around and said who left the door open. it went on of a public tep tans of a acceptance to hang together. romney jumps on the president. no sense we're in this together. or wait until we find out what happened before we cross swords. in terms of political tactics we have lost that wonderful con sen sis. after a crisis or a tragedy, let's hang together for a few days and weeks before we cross swords again. he's given up on that idea of bipartisanship in spirit. in terms of foreign policy, i believe there's an opening distance between these two men. in bringing back most of the people like john bolden and many of these people and working for him in the campaign, he's

reminded us of the thinking that the people around him were able to instill with george bush back then in the days of 9/11. so there's a real choice. a choice between obama's rejoining of the world community in trying to bring down terrorism and the old cowboy spirit of the united states against the world, which w. represented. so in that case, there's a real division. >> chris, thank you very much. tonight's debate will focus on foreign policy. like the previous two debates. it's slate d for 90 minutes. the first debate ended almost exactly on time. the second went on by five or ten minutes. tonight they are shooting for 90. the moderator is bob schieffer. he redefines the term veteran. he's been with cbs for 42 years covering the white house and pentagon and congress since he started there in 1969. the debate will be divide into six segments, 15 minutes each.

the topics for each section were chosen by mr. schieffer and announced ahead of time. two segments called "the changes middle east and the new face of terrorism." the others are single segments. "america's role in the world" and "red lines" and a final segment "the rise of china." each candidate will have two minutes to respond. bob will then direct further discussion on the topic. interestingly, this didn't get much national play. but he did an interview in florida and said that during that extended discussion time after each candidate has answered the question, he said he hopes that the candidates will "get into it", that they will confront each other on issues and ask each other questions. in terms of the physical layout of the stage. they will be e seated together at a table.

they are not supposed to get up or move around. each gets a two-minute closing statement. and they did two separate coin tosses to decide who gets to go first and who gets to go last. and mitt romney won both. so he gets the first word tonight in the form of the first question being directed to him and he gets the last word tonight too with the last closing statement. and that is the definition of good luck. steve smith, what do both sides need to do? >> mitt romney needs to have an error-free debate. we look at the debates like game seven in the national league. each one is its own distinct event. if you look at the debate since they began, they benefitted mitt romney enormously. he's now in a tie race with two weeks to go. the momentum that mitt romney has, the math is expanding in his direction, he's pressing on.

he needs to be presidential. no lose talk. no bellicose talk. he wants to appear as a steady hand. and i think that you look for him tonight to be a lot less argumentative than he was in the last debate. doesn't want to come across as too hot in this debate. wants people to look at him for him to have passed his last test as commander in chief. that he can get over that bar as a plausible commander in chief. >> do you think on that score, do you think that's the commander in chief test, did he hurt himself badly with the big factual gaffe on libya when he thought he was going to nail president obama and he turned out wrong. >> optically, he did. it was replayed, but if you look at the polls when we saturday here last week, looking at the impact, there hasn't been a political impact. the race has continued glacially, but it's continued to

move in mitt romney's direction. you look at florida, north carolina, virginia, ohio, you look at new hampshire, colorado, you look at the states where this is going to come down to -- mitt romney in a race held today, i don't know who the winner would be. it's that tight. so mitt romney wants to continue to make progress. he doesn't want to make any mistakes. doesn't want to turn the ball over to president obama in this. >> ed shultz, what does the president have to do? >> there might be a little chest pounding going on, but that's okay. we are out of iraq. and we have gotten bin laden. the fact is he did go into pakistan air space to back up what he said in a foreign policy debate back in 2008. the president has also accomplished a lot of things that don't get a lo lot of coverage. he's the first president that's made a commit m in cyber space and being aggressive to go after countries that are not honest

players, e he has a four star and full unit dedicated to cyber space. we hear very little about it. the president has positioned us into the western pacific unlike any other president has done. by the end of this year, we'll have 60% of our naval resources in the western pacific and the posturing going on between china and japan now under those unclaimed islands, this is really forcing the president's hand. he's done it diplomatically. we have relations with vietnam. we've been talking about putting a port there. we have now submarines in guam. that's a very strategically strong move. we actually have a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier group in japan. think about that. a nuclear aircraft carrier in japan. they are very concerned. the president has positioned us where we are strong as an ally of countries. india and malaysia, they were concerned about china. china is going to come up a lot

tonight. it's also going to come up on how are you going to deal with the super power that's really causing a lot of strife in the region. >> the thing i will be watching for on choina, is when people talk about the rise of china, they conflate with their economic might. so you get people talking about how they have a huge military. we know nothing about the size of china's military. they are investing a ton less in their military than we are. but in terms of aircraft carriers, they have one that doesn't work yet. and china is a future threat militarily. not necessarily a current threat. >> that's what mitt romney can't speak to at all. >> does the fact that the focus is foreign policy change the strategy and what you try to get done and the way you approach it? >> i think at the opening, it does. but i think that you try to tie it into some of the issues and concerns of the people around domestic issues that feed in.

for example, the economy can be raised as a national security issue. you can't major in it. if i was the president, i would raise the issue of freeport. i was out there in illinois where he has bain capital outsourcing jobs. if you want to talk about china and the economy, i would find a way to get that in if i was the president. but i think what you're going to see tonight is for the first time, they have not only got to show who is going to be the better president, and i think the president has a strong record there, but who can be the commander in chief, which is why governor romney does not need to be as combative. you have to show who is mature enough to handle that 3:00 in the morning call. you don't want a hot head or a guy that tries to invade answering that call. the president can say i'm taking that call. here's what i've done and here's what we need to do in the future. i agree with ed.

talking about the innovation with cyber space and all. lastly, you have to really deal with the fact this is the first time in a long time that the republicans don't have an advantage in foreign affairs. this president can argue. in fact, some that are progressive, i was one that disagreed with some of the afghanistan policy. so he's got to go there without alienating his base because i think that's going to be where he's going to be careful. >> the fascinating thing to me is what we saw in the first debate, and part of what aided romney, he just said good-bye to his right wing attachments. he said we're shaking the etch a sketch and defend medicare. the president's biggest vulnerabilities are to his left on things like afghanistan. people don't want the war to continue. there's huge majorities to end that war. does mitt romney do a reduction? can he attach himself from the

control of the party's policy thinking to score those political points. >> because there is an opening. we'll be finding out about what the obama side wants people to watch and listen for what r boert gibbs joins us live from the spin room next. this is msnbc's live coverage of the last presidential debate. we'll be right back. >> there's no soviet domination of eastern europe and there never will be under a foreign administration. >> i'm sorry. could i just pause. i did understand you to say that the russians are not using eastern europe as their own influence and occupying most of the countries there and making sure with their troops that it's a communist zone? hey. hey eddie. i brought your stuff. you don't have to do this. yes i do. i want you to keep this. it'd be weird.

take care. you too. so how did it go? he's upset. [ male announcer ] spend less time at gas stations with best in class fuel economy. it's our most innovative altima ever. now get a $199 per month lease on a 2013 nissan altima. ♪ on a 2013 nissan altima. one is for a clean, wedomestic energy future that puts us in control. our abundant natural gas is already saving us money, producing cleaner electricity, putting us to work here in america and supporting wind and solar. though all energy development comes with some risk, we're committed to safely and responsibly producing natural gas. it's not a dream. america's natural gas... putting us in control of our energy future, now.

if the united states has al qaeda, bin laden, in our sights and pakistan is unable or unwilling to act, then we should take them out. now i think that's the right strategy. i think that's the right policy. and john, you're absolutely right that presidents have to be prudent in what they say. but coming from you who in the past have threatened extinction of north korea, i don't know how credible that is. >> lawrence o'donnell is in the spin room at the site of the debate. he's with robert gibbs. hi, lawrence. >> thanks, rachel. robert, how about of debate prep was spent showing the president how you can take any foreign policy question and turn it back to jobs and domestic policy? >> i think you have a good point. energy independence is a domestic issue and a foreign

policy issue. sending our kids into harm's way is a foreign policy issue. how we treat them when we come home is a domestic issue. anybody who thinks this is a debate that's just going to deal with esoteric policies or countries around the world has to understand that these are issues that the american people and communities live and breathe every day. >> let's go to the chinese currency issue that mitt romney has made one of those day one items. is the president going to be able to teach a little class on how that works tonight or is that something you just want to get away from and get over somewhere else since people won't understand it? >> people need to understand that this president has fought to get the chinese to do the right thing. they have lifted the value of their currency. but the only thing mitt romney has ever done to china is send them our jobs and his money. as the president said in the last debate, if you think mitt

romney is going to be tough on china, you have another thing coming. >> i've been watching the television ads here in florida. there are some powerful team romney ads out there. one starring the red line statement and implying that the president is soft on this there's others that are specific about the president is not a friend of israel. this is one of the dominant things in the advertising here in florida. is that something you intend to address specifically? >> the president will give us the most leverage we have ever had in dealing with they are trying to obtain a nuclear weapon. but we have a staunch ally in the israelis. no president in american hiz ri has ever provided more military support for israelis than this president. that's from their defense minister. i think the president will get a chance to set the record straight.

deal with a lot of false advertising and demonstrate for the world we have a lot of tools to prevent rooirn from getting a nuclear weapon. it it doesn't just include a military option. >> mitt romney at certain points in the debates has tried to take steps toward the middle, toward the president in effect. did you prepare for any surprises in that way for this debate? >> i think after the first debate, we go into an understanding that at any time without a moment's notice, mitt romney could shed six years or 16 years of believes and he pretend he doesn't have a tax cut for the rich or that he loves teachers. a whole host of things. i don't doubt you'll hear a mitt romney that thinks diplomacy is the answer with iran. when he went to israel, he and his advisers talked about the fact that, you know, our country or the israels could go in

unilaterally. i don't think we need wing tip cowboy diplomacy. we didn't need it for eight years in the white house. we don't need it for four more years in the white house. it got us into messes we're still trying to get out of. >> if the president is to leave this debate, this audience with one sentence, what's the one thing you're hoping that voters watch i watching this debate tonight will be saying tomorrow at work? >> strong leadership, our country is safer than it's been. >> it's a record debate. he wants them concentrating on his achievements? >> his achievements and his promises. to end the war in iraq, to bring our troops home and begin nation building here in this country. i think all of those things you'll see a strong, confident, clear president that understands we have taken some really tough but important steps to make this world a safer place. >> what about mitt romney coming to florida for his debate prep and being a presence in the state and pictures of him on the

front of local papers and the president staying out of florida for the weekend. was that something you thought about? >> each of these guys has a different way to prepare. the president did so in a way that gives him confidence going into this debate and we're looking forward to it. >> thanks, robert gibbs. rachel, back to you. >> i want to go back to chris matthews. i was struck that robert gibbs brought up the issue of not just sending troops abroad, but how we treat them when we come home from war is being a domestic issue related to foreign policy. we saw with the romney campaign's predebate spin memo that they may be planning on bringing up the backlog in claims at the v.a. in terms of dealing with returning vets from iraq and afghanistan. do you see the republicans potentially being on a strong foot there? >> well, no, because although

that's a good thing for either party to do, i noticed we all watched the convention acceptance speeches. do you remember when mr. romney, the former governor, never mentioned the troops. never showed interest we were fighting in afghanistan. no human side. that's always been a problem on the right. johnny goes off to war and the bu gals are playing. when johnny comes home it's like that tom cruise movie. not so much interest in the wounded in the excitement of going to war. i think obama has been excellent. the troops who have lost their fitness because of wounds at war and will spend the rest of their lives like that. i think it's going to matter. it will come up tonight. >> it has been a way that they have kept going back to it constantly to have michelle obama and jill biden prioritize military families. both governor romney and

president obama have leads in the polls among certain voting groups that should guarantee they win the the election overall. it's because they both have sure-bet leads like that that we can't say who is likely to win. the numbers get weirder and weirder. that's ahead with chuck todd. this is msnbc's coverage of the third and final debate. please stay with us. [ female announcer ] with swiffer dusters,

a great clean doesn't have to take longer. i'm done. i'm gonna read one of these. i'm gonna read one of these! [ female announcer ] unlike sprays and dust rags, swiffer 360 duster's extender gets into hard-to-reach places without the hassle. so you can get unbelievable dust pickup in less time without missing a thing. i love that book. can you believe the twin did it? ♪ swiffer. great clean in less time. or your money back.

you said in the rose garden, it was an a act of terror. it was not a spontaneous demonstration. wanted to make sure we get that for the record because it took the president 14 days before we called attack an act of terror. >> get the transcript. >> he did, in fact. let me call it an act of terror. >> can you say that a little louder, candy? >> after the first debate as going to the challenger and a

second debate as going to the president, the close neness of race and the importance of this last debate tonight is something that can be appreciated in blunt terms. for a look at who is making it so close, what margins the candidates are getting with different groups and different states, we go to our master of miracle nuance, chuck todd. chuck? >> you know, rachel, the unbelievable thing, and it's what you were referring to before the break, is how both the president and mitt romney are hitting their target number, if you will, with two specific voting groups that if it wasn't for the other voting group, they would be on their way to winning. for romney, it's this 33-point lead among white men. that i can make up 36% of the entire electorate. he has this massive lead. it's bigger than any presidential candidate has had

in the sort of modern era since we have been tracking this. and yet the reason he's not winning this race is that the president is winning hispanics by a margin that's never been seen before. it's by 45 points. this is among likely voters. 70. the president is hitting 70 and could go above 70%. so for every white male voter that the president has lost going back to 2008, he's gained demographically with hispanics and the republican party. the most fascinating thing peter heart said if mitt romney comes up short, he may have rick perry to blame. for that one-month period when rick perry was mitt romney's chief challenger, they made the strategic decision to go to the right of rick perry on immigration and he's paying for it demographically. if the president doesn't win

ohio, it's because ohio has slipped away. >> do we know anything about the interest or relative importance that those demographic groups put on the issue of foreign policy? are specific demographic groups more interested in this as a topic than others? >> it depends on how they are watching. i think that when it comes to specifically talking to this white male potential swing voter in ohio, when you're talking about china and trade and jobs and connecting it to jobs and that factory that no longer is there in your town and who do you blame, do you a blame a wall street guy and the crowd that mitt romney is associated with or is mitt romney saying it's because president obama has been too soft on choina and has allowed your job to go to china. so under that narrow framework, you potentially are talking to some voters. but to be a little bit cynical. the foreign policy debate, i

assume this will be the least watched of the three. still going to get numbers because of the closeness of the race, but in comparison because foreign policy see it as when we're not at war and we can debate we're in the middle of a war, but when there's a feeling that isn't the front runner issue, are folks more likely to check game seven and some other things. >> steve mentioned earlier that it feels like when you look state by state that things are swinging in mitt romney's direction. have you guys updated the battleground map in terms of where you see that? >> let me throw it there. what we have done is narrowed it from nine to seven. this is where the campaign sees where things are at. we have put nevada very edgy into the obama category and put north carolina into the romney category. but the question is, the romney folks and maybe some democrats

agree he's up a little bit in virginia. florida, there's a little bit of a disagreement. the obama folks think they are doing better in florida than they are in virginia. and the bigger dispute are the poll numbers in ohio and iowa. there may be agreement on where new hampshire might be heading. massive disagreements between what the electorates are going to look like in ohio and iowa between the campaigns. it's fascinating. the obama folks are worried, but they are not overly wore ried. >> that's incredible. chuck todd, thank you very much. joining us is a visiting scholar at the university of texas at austin. professor, thank you for joining us. appreciate having you here. >> my pleasure. >> e we just heard from chuck todd that the presidential race is as close as can be right now, but the racial dynamic and gender dynamics are sharp. mitt romney leading among white

men by 33 points. president obama leading hispa c hispani hispanics. do you see those dynamics as fixed now or are they still in flux in the last two weeks? >> well, with regards to racial minority, going into the next two weeks we're going to see a lot of consistency. we have seen for months that african-americans and latinos have been very supportive of the president. and one indication with latinos we have seen in a recent poll is that enthusiasm has continued to go up. this is very important for the president because it translates that support into votes. but even more importantly, what we have seen is very high levels of enthusiasm in battleground states. so we see about 50 to 55% enthusiasm for the election. but when we look at nevada and florida, we're seeing upwards of 70%. on the flip side with women, we're seeing a bit more of uncertainty. in the past couple polls in the past two week, we have seen some

bopping around. and in 2010 the republican party made gains with women in the midterm election. >> in terms of enthusiasm, one way we can look at that is to see how much endurance people are willing to invest in the process of voting. i want to show you a picture that our producer tweeted out today. people trying to vote in north houston. this was the overflow room for early voting in houston, texas. just a huge crowd of people turning out in order to stand in line to vote there. what is your sense about the relationship between the difficulty of voting and availability and how it's connected to the issue of voter enthusiasm. >> well what we have seen is in texas, we think of texas in terms of its suppressive tact s tactics. but texas is good in early voting. close to two weeks and you can vote anywhere in the county. but i think the lines we're seeing today have to do with a couple things.

first of all, we've seen record numbers of registration. second we have a number of highly-contested races. for example, the 23rd congressional district where we have a republican la ttino and democratic latino battling it out. and we do have the mobilization that results when people want to exercise that right after that was the threat of it being taken away through such measures of the voter i.d. law. >> professor, thank you. we are sneaking up on the final debate between president obama and mitt romney. the one politician who will not be there tonight but will loom large is coming up next. this is msnbc's live coverage of the final presidential debate. we'll be right back. new prilosec otc wildberry

is the same frequent heartburn treatment as prilosec otc. now with a fancy coating that gives you a burst of wildberry flavor. now why make a flavored heartburn pill? because this is america. and we don't just make things you want,

we make things you didn't even know you wanted. like a spoon fork. spray cheese. and jeans made out of sweatpants. so grab yourself some new prilosec otc wildberry. [ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. governor of getting it done. you know how to dance... with a deadline. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. this is awesome. [ male announcer ] yes, it is, business pro. yes, it is. go national. go like a pro. sven's home security gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! how does this thing work? oh, i like it! [ garth ] sven's small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! woo-hoo!!!

so that's ten security gators, right? put them on my spark card! why settle for less? testing hot tar... great businesses deserve the most rewards! [ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day! what's in your wallet? here's your invoice. let me ask you what's worse. another war in the middle east or a nuclear armed iran? >> a nuclear armed iran. this is the world's largest sponsor of terrorism. they have dedicated themselves to wiping a country off the map. if they get nuclear weapons, other people will pursue their nuclear weapons as well. we can't live with that. >> war should always be the absolute last resort. >> you can tell how central foreign policy issues were in

the last election is the nominee picked as his running mate the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee. when republicans chose a businessman and former one-term governor with no foreign policy experience of his own. they did not try to balance their ticket in the same way the democrats did the previous election. . s picked the house republican budget committee chairman for their vp. his only claim to foreign policy experience is that he voted for the iraq war. for all the uncertainty heading into the debate about what a romney/ryan foreign policy would look like, it's a numbers issue within foreign policy where we have one specific proposal. looking into that for us is analyst ezra cline. >> thank you, rachel. it's true. on defense spending, mitt romney has been quite specific. the numbers are right there on his website. he says he wants to begin with a goal to give defense spending a

floor. it might sound like budget talk, but this is our nation's defense spending going back to world war ii. here's president obama's plan for military spending for the next decade. here is what romney wants to do. he proposes to give the military $2 trillion more than they are asking for. governor romney has not said what he wants to do with that money. he wants to add soldiers and build ships faster, but that doesn't get a price tag. it's hard to say what his vision is exactly. and frankly, it got harder this week. the former romney adviser contested that number saying "the goal of 4% of gdp remains and is unchanged but that goal is not going to be achieved overnight." so so much for budget clarity. this is kind of a common issue with the romney campaign. the more you pin down the number, more they can't give you the number, but they tell you

the ones you just said. all we really know is that mitt romney does intend to spend much, much more on defense than obama does and at the expense of other programs. tonight what we should be watching for is an answer on what the extra money will be used for. >> or admit that they want to spend that money. >> right. paul ryan denied wanting to spend anything extra at all. that was fltly untrue. he made a deal they were trying to prevent sequester cuts. that's not what's on mitt romney's website. it's trillions of dollars more in spending over the next decade. if they follow that goal. >> ezra, thank you. ed shultz, i want to turn to you. when romney talks about the money in defense spending, he frames that as part of a charge that president obama has weakened the military. does president obama need to counter that tonight? >> i think iraq created a

national security issue for us as far as depleting our resources and there's been testimony on chicago of how it's going to take us ten years to be on the kind of war footing we were on in the past. but our missions are changing with an emerging china. this would be the perfect flat form for mitt romney to close the deal tonight to explain exactly what ezra is talking about. because he's been very vague up to this point. the other thing is he's going to have to sell the congress because everybody is going to have to go home and say romney has the right idea. i don't think the country has the appetite right now for $2 trillion of new spending. not to mention the veteran issue we have created because of the iraq war with post-traumatic stress disorder. nobody has answers on what we're going to do here. >> and handling the disability claims. >> it's a domino effect. if you're going to spend this money, it's going to ripple through the economy and you have

to have answers for it, which we haven't gotten from romney. the president has done a very strong job with the bhugt when it comes to military and the allocation of resources. so i think the president is on good footing tonight. >> both candidates think they have the upper hand on this issue. they both want to lead with it. the president has brought up the issue of mitt romney's increase in military spending completely unprompted when talking about something else. mitt romney is running ads in virginia and colorado making the argument, get this, we need more government spending to preserve your job. that's explicitly the argument. all the arguments that they make about the evils of government spending and crowds out private investment and leads to kroen yism. that goes out the window. that part of the budget is defense. they are attacking president obama relentlessly on the air waives with that argument. >> is that deliberate incoherence. you want to sound fiscally

responsible so you want your vp saying we're not going to spend extra and then say something else. . >> the formulation of this argument is extremely simplistic and totally detached from reality. if you're serious about getting the fiscal house in order, you're serious about dealing with a $16 trillion debt that the country has. if you're serious abts the notion that we can't be a strong country unless we are fiscally strong at home. you have to reform the pentagon budget. you look at procurements like the f 35. it's almost impossible to articulate. the notion that the pentagon doesn't have waste in the budget that can be cut and we can cut the pentagon budget while remaining strong and secure and having the world military is just not true. and the reality is is that if you're serious about dealing with the budget issues the country faces, you have to tackle this problem, period. >> it's amazing to say we're

going to give you an extra $2 trillion. we don't know what we're going to spend it on. here's the money. now what do you want? >> it's more of the same. he has tax cuts he doesn't know how he's going to pay for. he wants to give the military $2 trillion. but he's not going to tell us where he's going to spend it. the two big things tonight that makes tonight huge is the last time we're going to see them on the platform. we're going to see who can handle the world. it's going to be interesting to see how much of the world is in the debate. because you can't talk about china without talking about china trying to influence africa. how do you deal with african policy. how do you deal with the fact you have the euro problem in europe. i'm not too sure we have ever heard romney talking the world. does he understand the whole globe if we're going to make him the president of the united states? i think he'll fall flat. lastly, the guy that won't be on the stage but will be is george

bush. does romney run from bush and the policies? does he embrace it? i think george bush will be the forth man on that stage all light long. >> more on that coming up right after this. msnbc will carry every minute of the debate and we'll be here to recap the event until 1:00 a.m. it's msnbc's live coverage of the final presidential debate just moments away. stay with us. to tell real peopt our new 15 under $15 menu. oh my goodness! oh my gosh, this looks amazing! that's a good deal! [ man ] wow! it is so good! [ male announcer ] our new maine stays! 15 entrees under $15, seafood, chicken and more! oo! the tilapia with roasted vegetables! i'm actually looking at the wood grilled chicken with portobello wine sauce. you so fascinated by the prices, you keep rambling on! i know! -that pork chop was great! -no more fast food friday's! so we gotta go! we're going to go to red lobster. yep. [ male announcer ] try our 15 under $15 menu and sea food differently!

a great clean doesn't have to take longer. i'm done. i'm gonna read one of these. i'm gonna read one of these! [ female announcer ] unlike sprays and dust rags, swiffer 360 duster's extender gets into hard-to-reach places without the hassle. so you can get unbelievable dust pickup in less time without missing a thing. i love that book. can you believe the twin did it? ♪ swiffer. great clean in less time. or your money back.

but with advair, i'm breathing better. so now i can be in the scene. advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator working together to help improve your lung function all day. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than twice a day. people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia. advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking advair. if you're still having difficulty breathing, ask your doctor if including advair could help improve your lung function. get your first full prescription free and save on refills at advaircopd.com. busy in here.

yeah. progressive mobile is... [ "everybody have fun tonight" plays ] really catching on! people can do it all! get a quote, buy and manage your policy! -[ music stops ] -it's great! well, what's with the... -[ music resumes ] -music? ♪ have fun tonight dude. getting a car insurance quote. i'll let it go to voicemail. [ clears throat ] ♪ everybody wang chung tonight ♪ putting it on vibrate. [ cell phone vibrates ] -[ loud vibrating ] -it'll pass. [ vibrating continues ] our giant store and your little phone. that's progressive mobile. but don't just listen to me. listen to these happy progressive customers. i plugged in snapshot, and 30 days later, i was saving big on car insurance. with snapshot, i knew what i could save before i switched to progressive. the better i drive, the more i save. i wish our company had something this cool. you're not filming this, are you? aw! camera shy. snapshot from progressive. test-drive snapshot before you switch. visit progressive.com today.

they don't get the access to lawyers. some people said we have to close guantanamo. my view is we ought to double it. >> one will loom larger over the dabt than any other. it's possible his name will never be spoken from the stage. but the specter of george bush is inescapable. is when you think of america choosing another republican president. mitt romney's campaign has 24 adviser. 17 of 24 served in the bush administration. dan senor was the spokesman in baghdad for the war in iraq. the campaign tapped condoleeza rice to give the foreign policy address at the convention this year. they have since followed that up with campaign trail photo ops for the candidates standing with

condoleeza rice. dick cheney himself has been holding fundraisers for the romney campaign and not just during the primaries. he's due to hold another fundraiser this thursday in dallas. mitt romney and paul ryan both supported the war in iraq. they say it was not a mistake. how do you convince the country to put a republican in the white house without also making the case that you would be different than george bush? that you at least have a new and improved approach to foreign policy. the romney campaign has tried to avoid the issue during this campaign to the point that the candidate did not even mention the war we are in during his acceptance speech at his convention. but tonight the questions will finally be unavoidable and george bush's record, if not his name, will hang over every single answer. does the republican party think there are any lessons to be

learned from the iraq war and the bush years? or would a vote for romney just a vote for four more years of that? chris, do you feel like there's anything new under the sun in terms of republican politics and foreign policy since bush? >> no, i think it's redux. what scares me about romney is his lack of historic sense. all our great presidents going back to truman with the marshall plan and kennedy and the missile crisis. and reagan recognizing, it's all opportunists. and saw something new in a new opportunity there. whether it was opening up trade in western europe after the war or whatever. you have to know history to see the opportunities. this guy has no evidence of any history in his brain. he doesn't understand why the iranians hate us. he's never gone back. you go to a movie theater and you learn it with "argo."

why they hate us. i don't think romney wants to know why. i think he has this sort of mechanical reaction that's based upon mimicry. i think we have a problem with him in terms of the knee owe kinds. look how they took over w. and dan quayle. they take over people who don't have it. they give them an ideology. but there's no brain there. they kept the tree up. they know how to use people of thin wit. i look at dan seno. the other day. they said the president, the candidate romney didn't have the talking points. where did they come from? they didn't come from him. they came from one of those guys. and he wasn't up to date. what a confession. the guy is a puppet. >> the issue of the lack of -- the issue of the degree of

interest is the point i'm trying to say, the amount of interest that both candidates have in the issue of foreign policy is the thing that i find very important. it was a few weeks ago that foreign policy advisers were saying they were not sure their briefings were even being read by the candidate. they had no idea where he stood on the issue. he didn't seen soft any interest. i want to get to steve. a chance to respond here. you feel differently about this than i do. >> i obviously have a different view on this. it starts with the fact that when you go back to the original resolution, there were great many democrats. i think that the war there were any one of a number of mistakes made. by the time we got to 2006, the decision made against political opposition that we had had to

surge troops there that there was only one way out. shia extremists and sunni extremists and al qaeda affiliated groups in iraq. i think that decision will stand the test of time. i think that when you look at iraq and totality. after everything we know, was it a mistake to do it? i would say yes. but in the benefit of hindsight, you didn't have that in the moment in time. there was a bipartisan consensus that saddam hussein was a sworn enemy of the united states. the intelligence agency of our country and ally and i think that politically one of the failures of the bush administration was to lose the political fight around that question. on the misled into war, et cetera. but i think that is a simplistic view of president bush's times in office in my view. >> this is msnbc's coverage of

the third and final debate. set to get underway from lynn university in just a couple minutes. i'm rachel mad doe here in new york. and chris matthews is at the debate site. in terms of fighting about the iraq war, i feel like the democrats had their big fight as democrats in 2008 and about what was wrong and who got it wrong and about why. and republicans have not had that fight. that's what i'm hoping to see tonight. chris matthews, i want your take before we go to the debate. we're moments away. in terms of what the stakes are tonight. >> i just want to stamp down what steve did there about the democratic party. the democrats did so out of fear. you go back to each of the candidates and ask if they were proud of the vote. take kennedy and the real liberals oppose that war. that last primary campaign between hillary clinton and barack obama was about the iraq