he's an outstanding police chief. i know him. in my view, inside, he knows this is a terrorist attack and that's what the federal government has to figure out with them right now. >> michael, thank you. i'm going to turn over live coverage to chris matthews, my colleague standing by with the latest information as well. chris? good evening, i'm chris matthews with the latest on what's happening in boston. boston police say at least two bombs exploded near the finish line of the boston marathon today. a third bomb, as we just heard, exploded at the jfk library a short time later. nbc news reports they were small improvised explosive devices. here's video of that first explosion today. police say at least two people are dead already and 23 more injured. in fact, witnesses and hospital officials now say some of those injuries were severe including people with missing limbs. governor deval patrick called what happened today a horrific attack.

officials say that a third explosion, as we said, occurred at the jfk library an hour later. residents of the city were warned to stay home today. in fact, the blast happened about two hours after the first runners crossed the finish line. at that iconic event, the boston marathon. because of the magnitude of the event today, there were tens of thousands of spectators right there at the finish line. where the bomb went off. two bombs went off. putting them in the blast area. luckily, there were also police officers and medical personnel on the scene in position to give immediate assistance. according to the white house, the president was briefed by members of his senior staff around 3:00 today, ten minutes after the bombing he called boston mayor tommy menino and massachusetts governor deval patrick offering support they might need. because bombs are involved, it's it's hard to escape the conclusion this is an act of terrorism. terrorism like any act of human violence has a purpose. setting bombs at the finish line of a popular american event, a celebration of life like the boston marathon is designed to attack the heart of this

country's life. hit the people where they're happiest. most at home. most joyous about their times and their country. how many bombs have we seen planted around the world at weddings, or other festive events? or at well-appointed hotels or gorgeous resorts? this is the bull's-eye for the terrorists. hit you where you feel safe so you won't feel safe anywhere. they hit you where you're most at ease in your society so you won't feel at ease ever. this is what we saw today in bosten a the finish line of the marathon. if isn't new. what it is, once again, is here. clint van zandt, was a profiler for the fbi. he's with us now. it's like the two planes hitting the world trade center. once the second hits you know it wasn't an accident. we have the third bombing at the jfk library miles away from here in central boston. >> time may be the factor that helps us determine, are there nr devices out there? you know from your experience reporting these things, many things we'll have an initial one

or two explosions then there will be one time at a later position, a later location, either to divert attention away or perhaps to kill or injure first responders. with this many devices, at least three, and the level of sophistication that it would have took to built these, we have to at least, you know, consider the lone wolf terrorist as well as is this something inspired by some type of international group? when we look at that white smoke, chris, that white smoke from that first device, that could be indicative of a low-order explosive. in essence, not like the military c4 or plastic explosive we hear about. nonetheless, these are deadly devices. they're intended to kill. as you say, for terrorists, now they've stood up on a platform realizing that 96 countries were recognized as runners in a mar non. so this is not just an attack on america. once again, this is an attack on the world.

>> let me ask you about the device. we're all trying to figure it out. nbc believes based on authorities, police authorities, that it was an improvised explosive device like the ones we hear kill american troops in afghanistan and iraq all the time along the roadside. does it require a detonator by something like a garage door opener, something like that? does the person have to be present? >> no, number one, you don't. you could have simply a timing device. realize that this device went off about an hour after the initial winner crossed the finish line. but again, with 26,000 runners, at least half the runners still had to cross that finish line. and today, you can have a relatively low-order explosive but you can have a sophisticated detonator, something, chris, as simple as a cell phone where i could be dozens of miles away and make a phone call. you know, chris, that could be one of the reasons the

authorities have shut down the boston airport is because they want to make sure if it's an international terrorist, for example, that we don't make it easy for this person to escape by plane. the authorities are scrambling right now. they know what they have. they have at least three explosive devices. what they don't know is who planted it and what message other than one more attack on america have we heard today? >> you know, in the area of speculation, going after the kennedy library is a way of going after a particular point of view or a particular part of american history. john f. kennedy. this year is the anniversary of his assassination. i was thinking going into boston, known to be a liberal city, although it's much more complicated than that, and going after the john f. kennedy library is part of this horrible terrorist attack, does it tell you anything at the library? there they are at the library with the fire truck. does it tell you anything they would hit the library of john f. kennedy? >> well, it tells us that these are not only deadly acts but

these are symbolic acts. realize, chris, as you know better than anybody, today is patriots day in boston. today is basically as far as they're concerned almost a national holiday. it's probably the busiest holiday in boston. schools are closed. hundreds, tens of thousands of people come out to see something like that. this, the boston marathon, this is america. this has been run for, you know, so many years. we're yoused to this being an american event. people come from all over the world to run in this type of event and now simultaneously, the two strong symbols of america, number one, the boston marathon, number two, jfk, the jfk library. again, this is exactly as you suggest, this is meant to frighten us. it's meant to confuse us. and it's meant to make us look different directions saying, where is that next attack coming

from? again, could be a lone wolf. could be an organization. this is why we pay the fbi, the boston police and all these other agencies to come together and realize it could be as simple as somebody seeing someone drop a backpack, or could be one of our sophisticated surveillance cameras that picks up an individual dropping off a package at one, two, now apparently three different locations. if we can show one person or multiple people, we have an idea are we dealing with a lone wolf or dealing with a dedicated group? >> how long, clint, does it take before an international terrorist group lets you know they're responsible, to take their own sort of exciting accountability for it? how often does that take? and with regard to american terrorism, in fact, in oklahoma city, did the domestic terrorist ever take public responsibility for that act? would we expect that? >> no, and again, part of the reason at the oklahoma federal building, of course, is that that sharp state trooper pulled

timothy mcveigh over for that loose license plate. he didn't get a chance to go public. but internationally, two different things happened. number one, we have groups that claim credit. chris, they usually do it the same day because they want to get maximum exposure. number two, we'll have individuals and groups that had nothing to do with it whatsoever claim credit, nonetheless, simply trying to draw attention and to do fund-raising and recruitment for their own organization. so we'll be looking internationally at this term, the chatter. what type of conversations are going on on the internet? telephone lines, known terrorist groups. who's talking back and forth? and who's claiming credit for this who risk event? >> stay with us as we do our continuing coverage. jeff, for universal sports, was running in the marathon and approaching the finish line as the bomb went off. thanks so much for joining us, swr

jeff. tell us what happened when you were there? >> i was coming down boyleston street. lucky for me i was trying to attain an under four-hour marathon. so i really sped up coming down boyleston street to get to the finish line. i literally crossed the finish line, took three steps and heard a loud explosion. turned around and there was a mushroom, smoke mushroom. looked to be about 20 feet in the air or so. probably about three seconds later, it seemed like, i heard a second one. and then, you know, realized what was going on. the volunteers did an incredible job ushering the runners away and they all immediately ran toward the explosion. my wife and three boys were there. luckily they did not make it to the finish line where they were

supposed to be seated to watch but they got stuck in traffic coming back from welsley. that's my immediate concern. a volunteer offered up their cell phone. it was very difficult to get through. and, you know, get ahold of them. but luckily, you know, they were fine. >> the people who are in the stands there, off to the side in front of the commercial buildings there, they took the worst of it. did you notice one of your fellow runners, i believe he was right a few paces behind you, got thrown off his feet? did you know that? could you see that happen? >> i did not. as i said, i was probably -- >> we're watching it right now. the guy in red top and blue shorts. just fell right to the ground as if it hit hard by that concussion. right there. there he is on the ground. >> i was probably 10 to 15 seconds in front. so, you know, i did not -- i did not look back. it was all, you know, very confusing.

throughout the marathon all day, loud, people cheering, music, you know, drums playing. so, you know, you're kind of used to after four hours you're used to a lot of noise. this obviously was louder and obviously the smoke, obviously very telling, but it was all a very confusing situation for a few moments. >> did you know that they hit -- whoever set off the bombs, it may be somebody else, but looks like it was simultaneous, therefore, coordinated, choreographed if you will. there's a bombing that took place within an hour at the jfk library at columbia point, pretty far away. how does that -- maybe you're not the one to ask, but it certainly strikes me we're looking at some real serious choreographed attempt to hit a national iconic event with 96 countries participating. they wanted to have this story spread around the world. jeff? >> well, yeah, i mean, that's obviously all day throughout the marathon there were people running with flags, different countries.

you know, there's a lot of military, you know, running or walki walking. a lot of different nationality flags along the way. so i guess that's a possibility. and i will tell you, you know, it took me an hour and a half after i finished to make it back to my hotel. it's mayhem. streets are closed off. you know, you've never seen more fire trucks and police cars and ambulances. obviously there's -- people are a lot of speculation about different things going on, but, yeah, i mean, it's kind of mass confusion in the city right now. no one really knows, you know, where to go or how to get out of here or what to do. >> thanks for giving us your firsthand account. this is going to be part of your life the rest of your life that you were there and you and your family, lucky for them, got through this whole thing. thanks for gicoming on msnbc to

give us your firsthand account of this. i want to go back to clint van zandt and the significance of anyone who would set a bomb with 96 countries participating. you were the first to raise this. this guarantees this story will run in every bit of media around the world. >> yeah, it really does, chris. and, again, when we look at symbolic targets, and realize between the fbi and the secret service, the atf, marshal service, other agents that help coordinate security, each one of these you have to look at what is not only the national, but what is the international significance of an event like this? we see things like the super bowl and the nba championship. and you know the final four in college basketball. but when we consider athletic events, this probably next to the olympics has the greatest international representation of any event like it. >> it's so big in east africa where i've had some time in my life. the idea, oftentimes a kenyan will win or an ethiopian will

win. that is such a huge event for those countries to have a victor in such an iconic international event here in boston. and now to have this marred this way. >> and when we look at the timing, if, in fact, we have this sophisticated timing, chris, realize that if the bomb was set, the bombs were set to go off not when that first person would have crossed the finish line, but to let the bulk of the, for lack of a better term, professional hardcore runners would have finished. but then just like your last guest, chris, the day in-day out runners, mr. and mrs. america, mr. and mrs. africa, mr. and mrs. france, whoever runs these events runs it because their heart's in it. they know they're not going to win but want to be part of something. their heart says i want to participate and there's no greater event than be in boston. now forever when one thinks of boston, you won't be thinking, perhaps, of this as the marathon

that started in 1887 or it's the oldest marathon in the world. you'll be thinking about 2013 when that believed terrorist attack took place. what will that do to this marathon and others like it around the world? again, terrorism has a platform and one more time it's stood up and yelled at us. >> yeah. think munich. mun munich. there's an pampl example. thank you. let me go to michael, an msnbc analyst. three explosions, perhaps ieds all pretty much within the hour. different locales. one 100 yards from the other. also one miles away at columbia point at kennedy library. >> officials are still trying to be cauctious. no doubt in my mind it's a relatively sophisticated act of terrorism. as clint just mentioned, the thought of placing two devices 100 yards apart to maximize casualties. a third one going off later at

an incredibly important boston landmark. what everyone has to figure out now is who's responsible? are there any more devices anywhere else? that's why we're seeing heightened security measures across the board in boston, new york, washington, d.c. people have to make sure there are no other threats out there. and over the next 24, 48 hours, we'll have a better sense of who might have been responsible for this. >> was this an anti-personnel bomb on purpose? we have 2 debad, 23 injured. in a crowd like that it could have been worse as bad as it is. >> really hard to say so far, chris. it is possible there were bolts, something like that that were intended to kill more people. they're going to have a little bit more sense of that. with the crowds that were there, i guess casualties will go up, unfortunately, so far if there were only two killed, although tragic, this is not nearly as bad as it could have been. >> let me ask you about domestic terrorism as a category. normally normally domestic terrorists, on

the far right, extremists, do they advertise after they do something like this? do they try to get credit as a group or hate america so much or its politics or government that they just want to do the damage, they don't care if they get public credit, if you will? >> what we'll see over the coming couple hours and days is lots of people taking credit for this. we'll probably have al qaeda take credit for it. we'll have domestic terrorists take credit for it. it will be the responsibility of the fbi and boston police to figure out if any of those are actually real. cases like timothy mcveigh destroying the oklahoma city courthouse federal building, no one took credit for that. it might be some time or never that someone actually takes credit for this. lots of people will say they were responsible for it. >> i was thinking, again, it's early, it's an early situation, but going after the kennedy library, not something at bunker hill, not something from the freedom trail or anything that kind of historic, but a modern political figure of the democratic party. does that tell you anything? >> i don't think it does yet, chris. again, that is, you know, john f. kennedy is iconic throughout the world to a lot of people.

and that's a significant site. and if these were terrorists, i think it's still a good chance that they were homegrown, maybe some international component here. they are probably people who understand an event like the boston marathon. understand jfk library. does that mean they're domestic right wing extremists or left wing extremists or al qaeda? >> he was assassinated by somebody with a political ambition. hold on, michael. u.s. congressman bill kiet eati from massachusetts has fresh information. thank you for joining us by phone. >> well, it's a sad day in boston, certainly. and one that continues to unfold. the national guard contacted our office and wanted to state the obvious to people that please, stay in your homes, stay in your apartments. don't venture out. the reason they're saying that, besides the two bombs that were detonated at the finish line area and the one at the jfk

library, there was also an undetonated bomb discovered at a hotel on boyleston street right in that vicinity. we have reports now, a source to my office saying there's another bomb undetonated that has been discovered. location of which is not disclosed at this point. there you have five bombs. two that were, you know, unfortunately took the lives of at least two confirmed people. and injured over a score of people. so it's -- it's sad in our area, but at the time, to realize this, our homeland security, and was a d.a. before, this is an ongoing criminal investigation. the crime scene is unknown. people should use their heads and be careful. because we are finding additional bombs. >> yes, and also there's a pattern, all of them are set in obviously very public places. two at the finish line. one at the jfk library at columbia point. as you point out, one has been

found unexploded in a hotel near here apparently. and one where it's a bit murky, we haven't reported it but there's talk of another one. this means basically when you say people stay home, that's logical. don't go to a public place right now. >> we're fortunate in boston. we have the fusion center at the airport. they're bringing in fbi people from new york, bomb experts from all around the country. the response will be terrific. the medical response, because of the marathon, itself, was there on the scene, and we have all the boston hospitals. you know, you cannot exclude this is an act of a terrorist. now, we have an international event at the marathon that is the oldest marathon. and we also have tax day, april 15th. so we don't know if that's a kind of symbol that it's domestic or terrorists might use as well. there's a lot that's not known.

we're beginning to get a lot of information. that will be shared with the public for their own safety, but a word of caution to everyone to really be careful. >> well, you're right, congressman. so many iconic dates. it's patriots day, marathon day, the kennedy library, always up there, and as you pointed out, i forgot, i filed already, it's filing day for the federal income tax which does cause some emotions around the country. sometimes in the wrong parts of the brain. anyway, thank you congressman keating for joining us from massachusetts. we got word, available, a first person video from the "boston globe." look. there it is. everyone had a camera today. michael, there you go. what do you make of that smoke and that -- can you tell -- clint was saying -- clint, you were saying that white smoke suggests not a state of the art or something super sophisticated in terms of explosive device. oh my god. there it goes again.

your thoughts, michael. >> this just looks, unfortunately, so much like events we've seen in spain, in the uk, and obviously as we mentioned, oklahoma city many years ago. is it a terrorist attack? exactly who did it? exactly how many people are killed or injured? it's going to be hard to say. you can look at that picture and hear the terror. as clint also mentioned, the people who did this, part of what they wanted is public and potentially global attention. and in that respect, they timed this very well. >> remember we had two planes hit the world trade center and the second plane told us this is no accident. let's listen now, because that person who took that, perhaps the videocamera, took a very clear picture with very good sound on it. as you listen now, you'll be able to hear the two distinct explosions. one after the other.

>> hey, there's going to be people hurt out there. >> that's a chilling sound of those people and running for their lives. then to have that second one come just as they had already registered what was going on, to have that come right into them, right out of the midst of that smoke. >> it's just -- i think what we heard from governor patrick and ed davis, commissioner, it shows how seriously they are taking this. even after the fact. it is very rare that we have an event even like this where people are being told stay in their rooms, stay in their houses. they clearly know this is a very fluid situation. they're obviously not confident

they know where this ends yet. >> michael, thank you. i want to go to the white house to nbc's kristen welker. she's there right now. what's the president been doing in regard to this horror since 3:00? >> chris, i can tell you president obama just finished a phone call with fbi director robert muller as well as dhs secretary janet napolitano. they have been briefing him on the coordinated response between the federal, state and local officials. he has been keeping up to date with this situation since about 3:00 when he was first notified. i can also tell you that he has placed calls to the boston mayor, tom menino, as well as the governor of massachusetts deval patrick to extend his thoughts but also to say the administration will be putting its full weight and resources behind the response to this crisis in boston. now, out of an abundance of caution, the secret service has closed off pennsylvania avenue to foot traffic. that is the road outside of the white house, chris. there's never any vehicles that

travels along pennsylvania avenue outside of the white house, but as of right now it's been closed to foot traffic as well. i want to emphasize that that is out of an abundance of caution. that is something that normally happens in this type of situation. so president obama continuing to stay up to date on the developments and the investigation and, again, just wrapping up a phone call with fbi director robert muller and dhs secretary janet napolitano. >> who has the lead? have we been able to figure out in terms of bureaucracy and our response? is it fbi clearly now? >> we haven't gotten a direct answer at that, but that would be the indication. that is why president obama just had a phone call with them. it will be one of several phone calls throughout this evening that will take place between this administration and state and local officials. chris? >> i think the fbi is pretty good, aren't they, michael? >> they are. in a situation like this, investigation of an event after the fact, fbi through the fbi joint terrorism task force and boston will have the lead for this. all the other agencies will play their supporting roles. so we'll probably see at least

for a few days some tightened security by the department of homeland security at airports. the cia will be working its sources overseas. everyone plays a part. the fbi will have a clear lead working in -- >> guys, there's a picture. guys -- >> we're going to have that picture. everyone's talking about it. we'll have it. let's go right now to adam zellweger, a witness to the explosions in boston. what was your experience, adam? where were you standing when this explosion took place? the first and second? >> hi, chris. i was standing at the entrance to the back amtrak station, boarding a train back to new york. >> and what did you see and feel? >> i didn't see, i felt and i heard both of the explosions. just like at ground level, two very loud noises and just immediate and heavy response by police. >> by the whom? >> by the police. >> yeah. so how far away were you from that? we're looking at the explosion

now, adam. how far were you from the explosion with all the white smoke coming up now? >> i would estimate at least two blocks. i don't know boston that well, but i was going into the back bay station. it felt like about two blocks. >> great. thank you so much for that, adam, for the firsthand account. we've been getting them all afternoon. we're going to keep getting them. >> thank you. >> clint, let me go back to you. it's so, to me, terrorism in its worst case succeeds, it shuts down public access, it keeps people at home. it sort of buries society under worry. i remember when i first came to washington, you could drive up and down in front of the white house. if you didn't like nixon you could blow your horn and tell him to leave. there's a tremendous sense of access up on capitol hill. you didn't have to have any kind of pass. you walked around from building to building until they had the case of domestic terrorism in '71. remember the explosion inside the capitol building which was much worse, i can tell you, because i was a police officer back then. much worse than anybody knew. and because of that, and now it's very hard to go visit your

congressman or senator. it's impossible to drive past the white house. we get the report terrorism has won again in its small ways because they've shut down even foot traffic in front of 1600 pennsylvania. that gets more and more every year. this closing down of public spaces. >> chris, that's why we call these things public events. we look at our buildings in washington and other places and we say that we, you know, should have public access. and terrorism wins not only when we put these thousand-pound flower pots in front of a building to keep a truck bomber from driving through. bullet when we come more and more restrictive. i mean, we look at times square now on new year's eve and the work that the police department goes through trying to clear people, trying to put them in. what years ago, you know, it was just -- it was just a happening. a million people got together and have a good time. they do now, but we put them

through metal detectors, we tell them good luck, there's no bathrooms. and the boston marathon, what more can we do? how more do we have a million spectators go through metal detecters? and realize that you can make explosive devices out of material that won't necessarily set off a metal detector. so, again, most of the time we rely on the good nature of people to make these events work. one bad individual, one lone wolf can cause the terrible damage we saw at oklahoma city, and perhaps now in boston. >> well, i guess this is good news, tom putnam, i know him pretty well, he's the curator at the kennedy library in boston on colombia poilo columbia scene, there was not an explosion, there was a mechanical room fire. we've getting conflicts on this all along. you can have a fire and

explosion beforehand. he said there never was. he said no fire was intentionally set. we have to dial back now from what was a report coming out a few moments ago this was aen explosion. it was a fire. it could have nothing to do with this and probably did not. we're left with two explosions. we're told by u.s. officials at nbc news not to worry about a further explosion up in boston. there's no indication something further is coming although the police are guarding the situation. what do you make of that, clint? >> number one, it's good to be able to dial back. i think for all of us to know that this wasn't that far reaching. and, again, to have that third -- that second location at the kennedy library not only were there significant political implications, perhaps, to something like that -- >> which are gone now. >> again, it made the threat far greater. so now the threat is isolated, again. people are dead. people are injured. but this puts it back into the

realm of one crazy sick person as opposed to some dedicated team of international terrorists. >> well, michael, tax day today. that came up. you know, i was thinking of all the iconic events, or told about them today. i knew it was tax day because i got them in. of course, it's patriots day. it's also the boston marathon. and would you as an expert be thinking domestic at this point? i don't think tax day means a lot to the arab world or islamic world or al qaeda in terms of their world. it doesn't have iconic significance. >> at this point, as an investigator, you don't want to shut down any options, but based upon the type of explosive that appears, the size of the explosive, the way it was done, this is well within the capability of somebody with too much time in front of the internet who was looking up bombs and who hates government, who hates america. for whatever his or her reasons for doing something like this.

this is well within the realm of one person. chris, what we don't know, for example, this horrific explosion that you're showing right now, we don't know if it was -- i don't want to say simply -- if it was just a low-order explosive, or was there shrapnel packed around? in essence, was this something to get more of a dramatic impact and a few casualties? or was there nails, bbs, screws and bolts packed around where it was really an anti-personnel device? these are all things that investigators are going to have to tell us. that will tell us the motive and the type of person who would do something like this. >> michael? >> chris, my real answer is, the report that we got from commissioner davis, and now the subsequent report that there was an explosion at jfk library, proves the most important lesson in all counterterrorism. first reports are going to be wrong. my answer is i wouldn't go down any path yet saying this looks more like domestic, it looks

more like international. from my take, we've had a pretty sophisticated attack, two separate devices with significant explosive impact. that's what we know. and if people start saying it looks like this, it looks like that, we're going to miss evidence that we're going to look right past. >> right. >> my take is, we just don't know yet. this could be domestic, could be international, could be a group, could be an individual on the internet. too early to say. >> well, let's go back, i think we're going to have to recap right now we have 23 injured people and 2 dead already. i don't think that's progressed far from where it was, a report came in here a bit after 4:00. we have two explosive devices at the boston marathon at the finish line. see the big word, finish, there. we've got great film here. great tape. there's that one runner going down from the concussion, the blast, itself. most of the runners continue without any problem. the horror occurred right in there behind the barrier behind the police lines where you see just mayhem there with people with missing limbs and fortunately as we pointed out

earlier, there were a lot of medical officials there. a lot of medical support people that were able to deal with those horrors, those injuries, horrible injuries as first responders right at the moment. we've seen the gurneys moving by in later tape here, you'll see that. this was -- someone planted a bomb there, two bombs with an intent to be well known in what they did. this is one thing we know, this was meant to be visited upon an iconic event in american life, when we celebrate so much for all the past century, practically, and in fact the last century. it was the boston event of the year. the boston marathon. in fact, one of the -- as complaint points out, one of the great american events along with the world series and boston marathon, the new york marathon as well. people are so happy and thrilled on this beautiful day to be out there enjoying the competition. in fact, the amateurs competing as well. people that are able to run 26.2 miles. i wouldn't call them amateurs especially. but also running against the world class athletes.

usually the ethiopians and the kenyans who are so good at this long-distance running. and are the world-grade competitors. all that happening in front of the world, the cameras, 96 countries represented. this horror occurred obviously for the world stage and thad have succeeded because already they have closed down the front of the white house. you can't even walk past our own president's house right now because of this. but we're also learning that the explosions were contained to the two there. there was no explosion over at the kennedy library at columbia point as we were told by the police commissioner at boston several minutes ago. that's not true. it was a fire over there. a mechanical fire caused by, perhaps, just a device breaking down. so we're lucky to have only a focused situation here at the boston marathon tonight. and we're waiting to get more reports. clint, are you still with me? >> yes, i am. >> let me ask you about this. and the pattern. i know that michael said don't draw conclusions. of course, the police authorities, the first

responders don't have to, but it comes with the line of country i'm in, which is to try to figure out as soon as you can what happened and that's what we do. we all do in the news business. i question i guess is, what is distinctive about this? is this something we've seen before in is th before? is this like hoem hoecoklahoma e the bombing at times square? what is it like to you? what do you see it in the league with right now? >> well, as an fbi agent, was involved in the oklahoma city bombing investigation. and i'll agree to a point that we have to keep all options open. but, again, that's why we have this sufficient amount of manpower between all of the federal state and local agencies. chris, as you know, they're going to be developing task force teams. some will be looking at domestic terrorists. some will be looking at international terrorists. some will be looking at the film

from cameras. there will be people looking at every avenue. i agree at this point we don't want to take down one gerbil one to the exclusion of others. in oklahoma city, somebody suggested it had been an international terrorist event and an international person had got on a plane in oklahoma city and flying out of the country. part of the fbi, we were trying to figure out who the person was, get the plane stopped, though there were those of us who strongly felt it was going to a domestic incident. we didn't lock on one or the other. we looked at all of those options until we were able to close in on one. that's what the authorities are doing right now. again, you've got every federal agency, fbi, cia, and others, state agencies. they will be looking at every bit of intelligence. they will be looking at internet and television traffic. they will be doing everything they can to say, does this have an overseas component or

strictly a u.s. component? >> right. and i agree with that. i think we're all going to be doing our own kind of profiling trying to figure this thing out. i also think -- i had this tremendous political memory. i remember was john f. kennedy was killed and a cbs correspondent said i hope the right wing has its pound of flesh. it was lee harvey oswald who did the shooting and that was not exactly on target with what actually had happened. here we have a situation which is clearly an attack, you know, we watch in the early minutes, was it a bombing or a fire? was it an explosion of kitchen equipment or some oven blew up? we found out within a pretty short time it was an explosion. then we found out it was two explosions. then the assumption begins it's terrorism. and very quickly, we came to the conclusion a terrorist act had been committed here. as the minutes passed since 2:50 this afternoon, we've gotten to the point of realizing the american people are under some kind of threat because the president just closed down the

pennsylvania avenue in front of the white house to foot traffic. so there is some kind of an assumption within our bureaucracy that this is a serious bit of business at work here. to the point where the president of the united states is taking steps in his own backyard, or rather front yard, to secure his own situation. clint? >> yeah, chris, this is not just an attack against a political system, per se. it's just not an attack against the united states. this is an attack against the world. this is a world-class event. there are people, as you suggest based upon your experience in africa, there are people gathered around little televisions and huts all across the world as well as major communications center cheering on their individual countryperson who's running this event. so this is unfortunately an excellent platform for a terrorist to get up and make just a statement about hate. a statement about anger and

frustration and rage. whether it has any political tentacles, we don't know right now. we know there's one message that's sent and that's hate. we have to stand up and fight fwe against that. >> we have vernon hogue, "washington post" editor who did run in the marathon today. two different pastimes. vernon, thank you for joining us. your firsthand account, which you'll probably file, but given to us, what happened to you in the race today when you got to the finish line? >> well, i finished about 15 or 20 minutes before the bombs went off. i was sort of making my way through the, you know, baggage pickup area and i heard, you know, what were unmistakably bombs. you know, they were incredibly loud. normally a very soulful, relaxed crowd down around boyleston street after the marathon. it was beautiful weather. when the explosions went off, a

hush fell over the city. then almost instantaneously, there were just a symphony of sirens and they just got louder and louder. you know, more and more police arrived. ambulances. and they began cordoning off the prudential center. basically turning the prudential center into a crime scene at street level. they kept pushing the it farther and farther out telling people it's not safe to be here, leaving the impression there were active bombs they were worried about or active threats they were worried about inside the prudential center. >> we've had two people killed up there. i can't believe it's not going to get worse. you have 23 people injured and some people in really bad shape with limbs missing. did you get a look at the injured while you were there? was that close enough to you? >> i didn't. i talked to one guy who was close to the finish line who said he saw body parts and basically just turned away. he turned me, again, he's hardly authoritative, at least one of

the bombs was in, like, a container on the street. but, yeah, there are incredible numbers of people, i mean, 30,000 people running the race. you know, thousands and thousands of spectators on boyleston street, you know, at the finish line and then, you know, thousands of family members waiting for those 30,000 runners. i wouldn't be at all surprised if there were a couple hundred thousand people on the ground not very far away from those bombs when they went off. the fact they only killed 2 so far and injured 22 is kind of miraculous. >> hold on there. i want to talk to you a bit more. let's go to bill bratton, of boston. what do you think of the steps now the police have to follow and the fbi to get to the source of this horror? >> well, as your previous reporter just referenced, there was a huge crime scene there that they have now secured.

and that's to allow them to conduct their investigation. try to make a determination of what type of explosive device or devices were used. that, so there's a, if you will, a prescribed procedure they'll now be going through and they'll be utilizing the full resources of not only the washington state police and massachusetts but all the various federal agencies that are now responding there. >> do you have -- is there any difference in how you approach this if you have an assumption it's domestic or foreign? or do you go the same police route of looking for evidence? >> no, actually in terms of you start off with the assumption you know nothing and basically start going from there and try to acquire as much information as you can. the federal agencies will be incredibly helpful and critical in this investigation because the type of bomb, the type of bombs, the type of devices, type of explosives used, federal agencies can quickly identify is this potentially homegrown, is

it potentially offshore inspired? they'll certainly be checking any threats that have been recently made relative to this event. the police commissioner of boston, ed davis, earlier in the press conference indicated they had had no previous threats made against the event, so that was based on his understanding of what's going on. >> what do you expect in terms of people taking responsibility for this attack? >> that's going to complicate it in the early stages because they'll probably be coming out of the woodwork to claim credit and that's the usual circumstance after one of these incidents. and, again, that's where the coordination between the various intelligence services, state, local, and national, will be critical to actually what type of chatter has there been that they've been monitoring in recent days? was there an increase in chatter the intelligence community was watching? so there will be -- as you expect, a full-court press on this one. >> is there anything you can do

to prevent something like this? even if you see it happen, say, in 2013, in april? then you know next year you'll have the same event with the same finish line and the same 30,000 participants, perhaps more. and you'll have thousands and tens of thousands of people along the sidelines cheering people on and watching. is there anything you can do to protect against this happening again? the same thing? >> reality is that there's an expression that's used relative to these issues. it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. we've been very fortunate since 9/11, the largest event we've ever had in this country, that we've thwarted, security forces, united states, have been able to thwart the vast majority of i vents. this is certainly the most significant event in the united states since that event. you can't prevent all of them. they do a great job of preventing most of them. but this event, 26 miles, actually 52 miles if you think the crowds on both sides of the

street, i'm in london at the moment. the tension here for the funeral on thursday, for margaret thatcher, the former prime minister, then the london marathon this sunday, a huge event in the city that has unfortunately some of the highest concentration of potential terrorists in the world, that this is going to be a city that will be very much on edge over the next week now. >> what to you make of the police commissioner up here telling people not to come out tonight? do you think that matters or is it very precautionary? >> well, i think what he's doing is the reasonable thing to ask the residents of boston. that is a big party town after the marathon. i worked that marathon for years as a patrolman, sergeant, lieutenant. the party scene in and around that area is huge. so if there are additional devices, the idea of not having crowds congregating outside the bars or in the hotels, he's to

be credited with encouraging boston residents to effectively stay out of the area, stay out of areas where there would be large gatherings. a good precaution. he should be applauded for that effort, and it's to be expected. >> you know, mr. commissioner, i mean, i've gotten more sympathy than i have usually about the hell that people live through in countries like afghanistan and iraq and seems like every time i pick up the newspaper in the morning and start reading through the big papers, i see bombings and even at recruitment stations or at hospitals or anywhere, religious sites or weddings. it seems like it's going on all the time now. especially in hotels around the world. anywhere where people are happy. there seems to be a bomb about to go off. how do police live with that? police, real veterans like yourself? with this new threat not just from criminals, it's from terrorists. >> well, i think you have the british experience during the ira terror bombings of the '70s and '80s how they kept going on

with their lives. certainly during world war ii, an actual full-scale war. we have what israel has gone through from time to time with the heightened bombing efforts in their country against buses and restaurants and hotels. that we managed to live through it and in america, we've been very fortunate that we have had these isolated, although horrific incidents, that have occurred from time to time, but nowhere near the frequency or daily frequency you're referencing. and one of the things in american law enforcement, both at the federal and local level, we've never fully understood, is why there are not more of these incidents. and that has always been the concern, the lone wolf, if you will. the inspired homegrown terrorist, particularly with access to the webs and some of the preachings and the hatred being spewed forth from around the world. we really are very fortunate that we don't have more of these

incidents. and we can be thankful for that. >> commissioner bratton, thanks so much for being on this, coming to us from london tonight. nbc's mike barnicle is with us now from boston. mike's a local up there. he was a great columnist for so many years. michael, put it together, i'm sure this went through your heart for the past couple hours now. >> well, chris, as you know, as you're well aware, this is a festive day in the city of boston. suffolk county. the city of boston basically. april 19th is patriots day. no one works. government offices is shut down. it's the day of the boston marathon. 26-mile run. 26 miles outside of the city of boston into downtown. the finish line is on boyleston street in the city of boston. downtown boston is very small. and it's enormously congested on a day like this because you have a red sox game that starts at 11:00 in the morning and finishes just about as the marathoners are running to their finish line. six blocks from fenway park. so you have the convocation of

thousands, 35,000 people from fenway park spilling out of the ballpark. you have thousands and thousands of people from all around the world at the finish line. waiting for for relatives, sisters, daughters, husbands, fathers who are running the marathon for various reasons. most of them charitable causes. this is a planned domestic incident. no doubt about that. an eyewitness who was standing on boylston about 75 yards to his right he heard an initial explosion, saw it, 75 yards to his right, and then a sect dairy explosion within, he thinks, within about 20 seconds and 50 yards to his left. that's about two city blocks where these explosions occurred, meaning hundreds of innocent people, two of them we know now fatal injuries. but he also saw, thankfully there is an enormous triage unit at the finish line. doctors and nurses and emts

gathered to help the marathoners who need help as they finish the 26-mile run. were is not for them, the injuries might be much higher than there are now. there are two dead and at least 60 injured in boston city hospital and massachusetts general hospital. those estimates will probably rise during the evening. but the triage unit was in operation but in addition to that, chris, as is so often as is the case, a young lawyer who i spoke to, he was right there, saw a woman being helped, her leg being covered up and they didn't know if there would be a third explosion. they knew it wasn't a gas line explosion. it was a bomb. apparently at sidewalk level, either in a trash basket or mailbox perhaps. sidewalk level. a lot of the injuries were from the lower body parts of those

who were wounded. >> wow. >> so michael, this is a direct hit. i was saying earlier -- and i don't think it's that poetic to admit, the thing about terrorism is to make people be afraid to live their lives and to go after targets of weddings or really nice hotels or really nice resorts in mali. they find people that are most at ease and want people to not feel confident of life anymore. they want to stir fear. and i don't know if we're going to find out in this investigation, you know, domestic or whatever, it's going to be somebody who wanted to hurt not just individual people but the national feeling of wellness, of happiness. they want to hit us on a happy day. >> chris, this was a stab at the heart of joy today. because no one down there at that finish line is there for any other reason other than to be filled with joy and happiness

at the people running at watching the runners, at just being there in a joy-filled day on this city of boston that's what it was. >> you know, i was just at our own philadelphia marathon several months ago and my daughter ran. the feeling of a marathon, wherever it is, is tremendous cooperation and collaboration. people run and often times a lot further than they have ever ran before. they may do 6 or 10 and then 26. there are thousands of people just standing there with water cups or cheering on just to make those people do a little better that day and be happy and feel supported. you're right. it's a true communal love fest. it's not usually about winning. someone a really good runner wins it from somewhere in the world. but it's about participating in society and this idea of terrorism is to prevent that.

>> and it's a communion of people cheering for strangers. you're happy for complete training injuries, people you've never seen before, people you'll never meet, you'll want to offer a helping hand to, as you indicated, with a water cup along the way or round of applause as they come armed the corner on boylston exhausted after this odd dizzy of 26 miles. you are part of a community in that one special moment and clearly a couple of bombs. >> mike barn kill, thank you. this is on his own time. vernon, we're talking about something good and nice. we don't use this word often on this show, nice, about america. >> yeah. i mean, this is the oldest marathon in america, maybe the world. it's 117th running of this race.

the tradition around the boston marathon is incredible. and mike barnicle was saying the scene after this race, you know, people stream across the finish line for probably two or three hours. so the race is ongoing, the party is starting, people are sort of meeting family members and celebrating this great accomplishment and then these bombs went off and everyone knew they were bomb sdpls we have to go, vernon. let's go to mayor menino right now. >> i spoke with the president of the united states about half an hour ago. he's doing everything he can. our condolensces and prayers for everyone involved in this explosion and assistance if you

need some information over the next 24 to 48 hours. let me just say that this is a tragedy. we're going to work together on this and boston police, the state police, fbi, all of the embassies we just met and committed to working together to make sure we come to a finality of what happened this afternoon and the governor has been helpful to us on several issue this is afternoon. i'll turn it over to the governor and have him say a few words. >> thank you so much for coming out with us today. obviously we all said that our condolences to the victims and their families. we are asking everybody to stay out of the perimeter of the explosion, about a 15-block area has been secured by the state police. that is a crime scene right now and it's very, very important at helping people do their job, law enforcement do their job, that people stay out of that area. we said earlier it's probably

best that most people make their way calmly, calm and if they are visiting the city back to their hotel, the commissioner has prioritized security at the hotels just so that for everyone's peace of mind. we are working on -- i guess the term we're using is a drop-in center in the city so that people who are trying to find runners or family members who didn't meet at the usual meet-up space -- place because the race was cut short, we'll be in a position to announce that very shortly so that people can find some assistance to help people find their loved ones. i am really grateful that all of the federal, state, and local law enforcement officials are coordinating so closely and so well. they are talking constantly.

they are all in investigation mode right now. it's very serious time. so we do need people to stay out of the area of the explosion for the time being. >> commissioner? >> i'd leak to clarify one statement. the device at the jfk library was actually an insind rather device or a fire. we have not related it to this incident. two explosions occurred on boylston street. the information that we got about 15 minutes before the prior press conference could very well be premature. but we are still asking people to be calm, to go to their homes and to work closely with us. if they have information, we need to hear about it. that's 1-800-494-tips. the area of our 15-block area around the blast site will be closed down for the next 24 hours and maybe further than that. people should be aware of that

as they make plans for tomorrow. we are looking at all of that right now. that's one of the investigative steps that we are taking. >> they said they were doing drills this morning, the same exact thing that happened. were you guys giving warning that this might happen? >> we were not given any notice. all of those things happened in preparation for this event but no specific intelligence that anything was going to happen. >> what type of device? do you have any idea? >> at this point in time, it's too early to get into the specifics. it's powerful devices that resulted in serious injury. >> was there shrapnel? >> it's too early to tell. >> a suspect? >> those reports are not true. we're questioning many people but there's no one in custody at this point. we're