i may have been through hell and back, but, i am strong enough to walk through hell with a smile on my face and with my head held high. >> right now on "andrea mitchell reports," back to life. tleet women held hostage in cleveland for more than a decade give thanks to all those who refused to give up the search. why he let the plane stall. today crash vegers question the pilot who was at the controls when the boeing 777 crashed well short of the runway. while new video shows what happened as the chutes deployed an passengers ran for their

lives. on the 11th day of testimony in the george zimmerman trial, the defense turns to the forensic evidence from the shooting. we'll follow it all live. the battle over abortion rights. rallies from north carolina to the lone star state over a woman's right to choose and new restrictive laws taking shape in seven states across the nation. today state senator wendy davis is back as a special session gets under way in the texas house. and road to redemption. former new york governor eliot spitzer seems to get emotional on "morning joe" about his comeback plan. you decide. >> what has changed personally? >> a lot of pain. a lot of pain. >> that's it. >> yeah. you go through that pain, you change. >> all right. and the washington monument is closed for earthquake repairs but the park service is still giving visitors something to light up their lives.

♪ ♪ and a beautiful sight it is. good day, many's andrea mitchell in washington. it's been more than two months since gee gentleman dejesus, michele knight and amanda barry escaped ten years of captivity. today they are breaking their silence for the first time. >> first and foremost, i want everyone to know how happy i am to be home with my family, my friends. it has been unbelievable. >> walking hand in hand with my best friend, i will not let the situation define who i am. >> thank you for the support. >> nbc's kate snow covered their miraculous escape in cleveland and joins me now from new york. kate, this is an amazing video. it was done pro bono, videographer and people in their

defense and fund-raising team. tell us how this came about and your impressions. >> their spokesperson tells me today that this was the women themselves wanting to make a videotape, wanting to get their voices out there and frankly, their faces out there. recall that we haven't even seen these young women except for a couple of still photos. we really didn't even know what they look like anymore after all of those years in captivity so it is a remarkable video to watch. the main message that they want out there is that they are okay, they are healthy and they thank the community for all they've done. they raised more than $1 million for these women already in cleveland. >> tell me about the speech patterns. i was just struck by -- i think it is michelle. i'm not sure. who has a distorted speech. is this the result of the beatings? >> we don't know the answer to that. in fact, i just asked someone if we know whether she's had surgery. there were some rumors that perhaps she had to have some work done on her jaw. perhaps she'd been beaten and had had a fractured bone. we've not been able to confirm

any of that. what you do notice is that they seem younger than their years. the women you are seeing there are in their 20s but they seem almost like teenagers. people around them have told me they act a little bit like teenagers because that's when they were taken away from their lives and they didn't have those formative years, middle school, high school years. there are basic common sense things that they didn't know anything about, banking, how to have a bank account. think of all of the things they've had to relearn in these last couple of months. to their credit, people of cleveland have given them space and time and really left them to themselves so that they could heal with their families. >> do you think, kate, that they are going to be able to maintain their privacy and continue to heal? obviously emotional therapy, whatever other tools that they can deploy to help them adjust. >> they are in therapy already. they are looking at getting apartments, getting on with their lives, going back to school, all those kind of details are being work out. i do know that in part they

wanted to make this tape in order to get their faces out there so that people would stop being obsessed with getting a photo of them. they think that this may help give them even more privacy now that the paparazzi won't want that very first picture of michele knight who you see there on the screen. now maybe they'll get a little more time to themselves but they say the community's been pretty good about staying away from them so far and they hope they'll be given even more time. their lawyer said they aren't ready to speak out until after this trial of ariel castro is over and done with. right now it is still in the process. >> kate snow, thanks for being with us today. investigators today from the national transportation safety board are interviewing the pilot, 1 of 3, who was actually at the controls when asiana flight 214 crashed. key questions are why he and three other pilots in the cockpit let the plane slow down to an unsustainable 103 knots as

it was on final approach. john yang is live in san francisco. john, that is the big mystery how they ignored all the signals. why was it going at that slow speed? >> reporter: exactly, andrea. they have talk to 2 of the 4 pilots who were on-board that flight yesterday. yesterday and now today talk to the other two, including the pilot who was actually in control of the plane. one thing they want to find out is talk about with a was going on in the cockpit. they heard the cockpit voice recording but also get a sense of the dynamics among the crew, whether they were working together, communicating with each other. perhaps one assumed the other was monitoring the speed and watching everything during landing. we know that one of them, the pilot who was actually in control, was in training on the boeing 777, just learning to familiarize himself with this in flight. he had about 43 hours on the plane. it was his ninth trip. his first landing in a 777 at

san francisco international airport. although he had 10,000 hours on other kinds of planes. but also, the pilot who was watching him was also new in that role. that's also something that the ntsb will be looking at. another thing the ntsb is now looking at is whether or not one of the victims, 1 of the 2 16-year-old chinese girls who was killed in this crash whether her death was brought about because she was struck by a fire rescue truck responding to this. the driver of that truck acknowledges he may have come in contact with her, but the question is whether that was responsible or somehow contributed to her death. meanwhile, about two dozen passengers remain hospitalized. seven of them in critical condition. some of these people have very severe injuries. some missing limbs, broken bones, and in some cases permanent injuries such as paralysis.

>> i know the doctors found that people with, they walked in, but they had under further examination and after scans were taken, e rx-rays, had profound spinal injuries. injuries that weren't noticed at first. one question is the fact that apparently two of the chutes deployed inside the plane rather than externally? are they looking into that? >> that's exactly right. that's something the ntsb will also be looking at. two of the chutes did deploy inside trapping some people, including some cabin crew members. the first responders who got there said that when they got there the crew was desperate asking them for knives, presumably to puncture those chutes and to free the people who were trapped. two of the policemen -- the two san francisco police officers who were first on the scene tossed up their knives. they had knives on them. tossed them up to the crew numbers in the plane so they could free people who had been trapped.

>> and the real heroes may well have been not only those first responders but the flight attendants. flight attendants who were carrying out and repeatedly going back into that plane. john yang, thanks to you. new questions about the runaway train that exploded in a small town in quebec, canada over the weekend. a fire earlier that evening on the train that was parked outside the historic village may have caused the events that led to the crash. the rail company and local fire department are now casting blame at each other. its officials continue to investigate. 72 oil tanker cars decoupled, sped downhill into the town killing at least 13 people and 40 people are still missing in that small town. [ male announcer ] this is kevin. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again.

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trying to reassure its people and the rest of the world about its intentions, egypt's military today announced several steps to try to transition to civilian rule quickly, including elections they say in early 2014 and the appointment of a liberal economist and former finance minister as an interim prime minister. but will these steps be enough after more than 50 pro-morsi protesters were killed this week reportedly by government soldiers. nbc's eamai ayman muhyeldin joi now from cairo. >> reporter: they've been rejecting the process ever since president morsi was ousted, today rejecting it one more time, not only to the road map or transitional process outlined by the interim president but a short while ago the new interim prime minister after his name came to light as the front-runner, they came out and again rejected his appointment

as the prime minister and say they will not be part of any government or any process that legitimizes the coup that took place here last week. so far, they are staying away from everything, and that's why a lot of people here are extremely nervous in the weeks and months to come. if they are part of the political process, they're going to be alienated and that is going to be dangerous for egypt's political stability. >> what about the other islamist party that had rejected elbaradei? are they accepting these steps? is it just the muslim brotherhood that's on the outside looking in or are there wider groups opposing it? >> reporter: yeah, you are absolutely right. there are several politically leaning islamic parties that are in egypt's political scene. the vast majority of them are aligned with the muslim brotherhood. however, the ultra conservative party that you mentioned, the noor party, they've been kind of power brokers in recent elections, coming in second place after the muslim brotherhood. they've stood by and supported

the ouster of president morsi and have lent themselves to the process that's been taking place. they had some reservations about dr. elbaradei as contender for the prime minister because they felt he was too liberal and politicized so they warranted somebody in place that's purely technocratic. what they are really pushing for is that egypt forms a purely technocratic interim government. name of the prime minister we learned today most likely fits that bill and most likely he'll create an interim government made up of mostly experts to try to get egypt's economy back on track. >> what about the press? there's been a crackdown the very first days because of its connections in doha and the concern about the government there and their support for the muslim brotherhood and morsi, they were shut down. what about freedom of the press, cnn camera was confiscated by the military. a bbc reporter was hit in the head during clashes last week. freedom to report on all this?

>> reporter: absolutely. there's a lot of concern. immediately after the ouster of president morsi the military cracked down on a lot of media, not just domestic media but also international media. some of the domestic media channels they argued were leaning towards the muslim brotherhood or they were afraid were going to in some shape or form incite violence. it's also been difficult for foreign journalists. there are four turkish journalists arrested, an itn journalists were detained as well as some of those you cited from cnn and bbc. there is a little bit of a backlash, as people support the military for ousting president morsi, they also allow incidentally the creeping in of authoritarian rule. that's the concern some human rights activists have expressed, the government is indirectly taking egypt back to where it was under the mubarak era where the media was very tightly controlled.t is something to see coming days in the media freedom

relaxes a little bit. >> thank you so much, ammyman muhyeldin from cairo. secretary of state john kerry will be returning briefly to washington for the day because of visiting chinese officials. that mrs. kerry remains in fair condition. they have ruled out possible severe causes for what were described as seizure like symptoms, including stroke, heart attack or brain tumor, which is all very good news indeed. but this announcement just from the state department. we'll keep you updated on the condition of teresa heinz kerry who will remain in boston. and we'll be right back. she's always been able to brighten your day.

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walter, national editor at the cook political report. well, here we have texas, rick perry, announcing that he is not going to run again for governor so he's obviously thinking about 2016 and he is just having the showdown in texas. wendy davis is going to be here tomorrow to talk about all of this but right now the house is voting on it. karen, this is not the only state. we've seen ohio, john kasich and company sneaked it in to a budget bill. in north carolina. how many other states. wisconsin. there's an injunction against enforcement of what the legislature there did under scott walker? >> that's right. what's always been interesting about the abortion debate -- which seems to be all over the place and in the news now -- is how people feel about the whole issue hasn't changed in decades. most people are very sort of deeply ambivalent and conditional in how they feel about abortion and the more the debate is about the fetus, which

is what this 20-week ban is -- the more the anti-abortion side wins. but the more it is about the woman and her access to abortion and her ability to make this decision herself, the more that the abortion rights advocates win. >> forced sonograms, 20-week termination -- i mean preventing abortions at 20 weeks when roe v. wade has 22 weeks. this has been the law of the land for decades. >> but to karen's point though, it is still i think about the fetus and viability. the argument that you're getting a lot of folks on the pro-life side making is, look, 22 weeks made sense in 1973. now we have incredible advancement in terms of our ability for premature babies to live outside the womb. but i think it is in the packaging and that's how you present the case. so i think where democrats were very successful in making the

case against mitt romney an against some other republicans who were pushing similar legislation, they went at it as too extreme. no exceptions for rape and incest for the health of the woman. forced requirements for vaginal sonogram. that looks just mean spirited and i think there was a backlash to that. but if it is focused simply on the fact that this is a fetus as opposed to this is about the common sense -- the ability for common sense to prevail when it comes to exceptions? that's when i think that the other side is -- >> of course the real impact could be if the pro-choice community frames this in a certain way, the blow-back could be against republicans as we've been talking about on immigration an other sues, against republicans in the mid-term elections, if women feel that their rights to control their own bodies are

being controlled by men, by male legislators who are without votes, without debate, sneaking this into budget bills, as happened in ohio. >> in this texas bill i think the most interesting provision is the one that requires abortion clinics to sort of meet the same standards as hospitals. whether the anti-abortion side succeeds in defining that question as being about a woman's health, especially after this horrific trial we've seen in philadelphia, or whether the abortion rights side gets to define it as just -- they're trying to shut down all clinics. i think that's going to determine how this plays out politically. >> especially in a case like texas where so many people -- it has one of the largest communities of people who rely on planned parenthood and other public health options because of a lack of reproductive clinics that are available. i want to talk about eliot spitzer. >> interesting transition. >> i know. because he was on with mika and

mark halperin and others on "morning joe" today. let's look at what he had to say when challenged by mark about what he did. >> i'll give -- people lie about their taxes, not having paid their taxes and all the rest. i think -- >> but you lied about illegal activity. >> i lied about personal sexual activity, yes. and i -- >> i'm not trying to diminish it. >> you weren't lying about an affair. you were having a consensual activity. you were lying about illegal activity. >> okay. i will let the public make that determination. >> well? you can't make it up. >> what about these roads to redemption with new york city voters? this is city controller that he's running for. it's five years after he had to resign as governor. and the issue then was illegality. he was caught in a sting and also the hypocrisy of it all. >> the new york tabloids have not had this good of an election

season in the long time. >> and late night comedy. >> but i was struck yesterday when i was speaking to spitzer about how he sounded so much like that guy who first ran for another backwater job back in nose days, new york state attorney general, and how he was really talking about expanding the powers of the office of controller and taking on big corporation. i mean this is a job that is sort of a dead end in new york politics and he is, again, sort of trying to portray himself as that same guy who won new yorkers' hearts in the first place. >> what he said about new yorkers and guys like spitzer and weaner? >> i think it also says -- especially in wiener's case, it says a lot more about the state of the current crop of candidates than it does about anthony weiner. the truth is, had there been a stronger array of candidates in the race in the first place, i don't know how much traction he would have gotten. but the fact is, there still is a greater percentage of people who in new york say they'd rather vote for none of the

above than vote for one of the many candidates in that race. so had had there been a bigger, more dynamic candidate in the mayoral race, i don't know that wiener would get much traction. to karen's point, nobody really knows much about the controller's race in the first place so he can make that a much more high-profile -- >> karen, thanks for your reporting and yours, amy, as well. as we continue to follow the anti-abortion vote in the state of texas and legislature, tomorrow i'll talk to the woman on the front lines of that fight for reproductive rights in the lone star state, texas state senator wendy davis joins us live on the program tomorrow. and is edward snowden about to leave moscow for venezuela? if so, he's going to be taking the long route flying west around the world to get to caracas avoid crossing european or american airspace. a top russian involved in the case tweeted snowden accepted

venezuela's offer for asylum but the tweets were later deleted. the obama administration has been pressuring allies not to grant him asylum to make sure he returns to face espionage charges in the u.s. one report we have, venezuela has sent a plane to moscow to bring him bab. also today, president obama's nominee for fbi director, james comey, tries to defuse criticism he had permitted waterboarding while serving in the bush justice department and his confirmation hearing today. comey declared that waterboarding is torture. previously he had endorsed a legal memo that authorized the use of waterboarding when he served as deputy attorney general under george w. bush but today comey told lawmakers that he always believed that the practice was wrong but was overruled. >> absolutely, senator. i -- when i first learned about waterboarding, when i became deputy attorney general, my reaction as a citizen and a leader was this is torture, it's still what i think. it starts with something little, like taking a first step.

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court is back in session now after the lunch break in the george zimmerman trial. the key witness this morning was forensic pathologist vincent dimaio. he is back on the stand. the doctor gave his expert opinion determining how close the firearm used by george zimmerman to fatally use trayvon martin was to the victim's body. he also gave detail answers to questions concerning wounds to both individuals. joining us now, nbc's craig melvin live in sanford, florida, and msnbc analyst lisa bloom. craig, back to you first. they are back in session but they are approaching the bench. talking to the judge. what do we expect this

afternoon? >> reporter: when they start back -- you know what, andrea? >> i think they've just started, craig. let's go right to the courtroom and the cross examination of dimaio. >> -- it was trayvon martin who attack george zimmerman. you can't say that. >> that's correct, sir. >> in fact, you can't testify as to who threw the first punch. >> that's correct, sir. >> in fact, you can't really testify whether there was a first punch thrown. >> that's correct, sir. >> you can't say whether it was trayvon martin defending himself or george zimmerman defensing himself in terms of when this first started. >> when it first starred? that's correct, sir. >> your testimony is really only focusing on the time of the actual shot. correct? would that be accurate? >> that's correct, sir.

>> okay. and you're not stating here, are you, that everything george zimmerman stated at the statement you saw, the re-enactment, is the complete gospel truth. >> that's correct, sir. i'm just stating the nature of the gunshot wound being consistent with his account of how he shot. >> right. but were you aware, sir, that the defendant had given one, two, three -- i believe at least four, maybe five statements prior to that one? >> i believe you had mentioned that to me, sir. >> i had mentioned that to new your deposition. >> right. >> is there only reason you focused only on the re-enactment as opposed to the oraniginal statement he gave? >> well, i know he what the re-enactment said and essentially he he's holding to that account. so what i'm saying is i

evaluated the objective evidence in regards to this account that's being presented here. >> i interrupted you. i apologize. >> no, that's fine. >> let me know. i also told the court reporter i would be slow, so if you you can do the same thing, she needs to get everything down. when we are talking to each other, make sure we don't talk over each other. >> yes, sir. >> am i correct in stating that you have always believed that the first statement is the most accurate statement? >> the first statement is usually more accurate than when given weeks or months later. >> oh, okay. >> because you get that in depositions. >> i gotcha. now you mentioned your prior experience with the medical examiners. you were head of the medical examiner's office in the beautiful city, san antonio. >> that's correct, sir. >> in fact when you go to the alamo, right near there you can go down to the water, go down

what? i don't know how far you go down but you go down somewhat. >> it's about two levels down. are you on the river walk. right. >> all right. all right. now you mentioned that when you worked there for what? 15, 20 years? >> 25 years and 10 months. >> didn't mean it cut it short. you mentioned as a medical examiner it was important for you, was it not, to, before you render an opinion to make sure you understood all the facts. correct? >> depends on the case. some cases you you want more information. some cases it's not necessary. it just depends on -- everything's personal. >> right. but i guess what i'm saying is when police bring you a case, medical examiner, obviously they bring you the body and you start doing the autopsy, you'd want to know what all the witnesses said. you wouldn't just pick one witness and say, okay, what do you say? you would want to know what everybody else said to make sure it was consistent with the evidence that you saw. correct? >> in most cases, yes, sir. >> now in this particular case you just focused on the defendant's statement an i

believe you said mr. good's statement. correct? >> what i -- okay. i focused on the defendant's statement because that's -- as you pointed out earlier in your cross examination, that's all that i'm concentrating on. whether it's -- so i went to see, is it his statement was consistent with what i found. what was found as the gunshot wounds. rest, i can't say. >> right. because you weren't provided with all the other statements of all the other witnesses. correct? >> but, again, i couldn't say what -- i would have to disregard them in regards to the gunshot wound. because the only one present there is mr. zimmerman. so you have to go by what he's saying. >> well, i -- respectfully beg to differ with you. there was another person there. wasn't there? >> well, there were couple other witnesses, yes, sir -- >> no. i mean respectfully, the other person there is not among us

anymore. >> right. because he's the only one who communicates. that's correct. >> he can't speak because he's dead. >> yeah. >> okay. were you aware, by the way, that the deceased, the victim in this case, trayvon martin, was on the phone with with a lady? >> yes, sir. >> you didn't review her statement. did you? >> no, sir. >> but when you worked with the medical examiner's office as the chief medical examiner, you, if most cases, attempt to find out all the information before you came to an opinion. >> it depends on what the case is about. often the information from the witnesses goes more towards the manner of death rather than the cause of death. in this case, there's no question with the manner of death is. >> okay. so are you suggesting then that all the witnesses testimony should just be disregarded? >> for my purpose -- not for the

jury. but for my purposes, it's not important in my giving my opinion. >> in terms of your limited opinion as to the gunshot wound itself, in terms of how it possibly could have occurred. >> right. >> is that correct? >> right. the other statements are for the jury to evaluate, not for me. >> so you're not saying that we should just disregard what led up to this, whether somebody was following or whether somebody was attacking somebody. you're not saying that that should be disregarded. >> that's not -- right. that's not what i'm doing. the rest of that is the jury. that's why they're sitting there. >> okay. okay. >> right. i didn't mean to imply that you were saying that. i just want to make sure the record was clear about that. >> oh, no, no. there's no problem. >> okay. and mr. west asks you a few -- what we refer to as hypotheticals, what if, assuming this fact, and in order to give an opinion when somebody gives you a hypothetical, it has to be

based on facts that are accurate and truthful. correct? >> a hypothetical doesn't have to be true. >> oh, okay. >> a hypothetical is just suppose this and this happened. >> okay. so we would be speculating, i guess, or potentially speculating -- >> it's not even speculating. you're just giving a presentation and you're asking what it is. doesn't even get to the speculating. >> okay. and you would agree that at least the one statement that you relied on, which i think was either the fourth or fifth statement that mr. zimmerman had given, the re-enactment, that mr. zimmerman has a self-interest. correct? when he's talking to the police? >> yes, sir. >> and one could even argue that he has a bias and not telling the truth. >> one could argue that. i think that's your argument. >> yes, sir. and you would also agree that if

his statement doesn't match the evidence, then it's not the truth. correct? >> that's correct, sir. >> and i guess in your -- what you reviewed, you were aware, were you not, that the only person that was armed out there was george zimmerman and not trayvon martin. >> yes, sir. >> okay. were you aware that he wasn't just armed with a firearm but that he was also armed with a flashlight? >> yes, sir. actually there is a photograph of the flashlight in the scene photos. >> may i approach the witness, your honor? this right here? >> yes, sir. >> could this do some damage to somebody? >> yes. >> i apologize, may i approach the witness, your honor? >> you may. >> i thought it was one of these

all-steel heavy things. i wouldn't consider a really dangerous weapon. >> you think it is already to hit somebody like that real hard and it wouldn't cause any bruising? >> i think it might cause a bruise but it is just not heavy enough to be of significance. >> so you were not provided of a statement of a witness who described george zimmerman on top of trayvon martin before the shooting? >> i was not provided with that statement, that is correct, sir. >> you were not provided with a statement of selene bahadoor.

>> no, sir. >> you were provided with an audio and written statement? >> yes, sir. >> were you aware he gave an additional sworn statement in which he described not hearing this at all? >> no, sir, i don't think so. >> were you aware that he also stated under oath that he did not hear anything hitting the concrete at all? >> no, sir. >> i'm trying to do this chronologically but i want to go back. i want to go back a little bit about your cv and your qualifications that mr. west talked about in terms of where you've been and that kind of stuff. you mentioned -- i was curious. you mentioned something about shooting animals. are we saying that this experiment was done while the

animals were alive? >> following federal regulations, yes. what you have to do, is the animals have to be kept in a federally approved area, and then a veterinarian has to be present at the time of the experiments and the animals have to be aenne neaenness that. >> how many times were they shot? is. >> i had vae to read the paper originally. but, you know, it was a test to determine the -- whether the testing method used by farms examiners was valid. >> you determined that it was. >> yes, it was. >> you also mentioned that you testified all over the world, really, i guess -- or part of the world. >> a couple places, yes. >> and you testified in criminal matters, both for the government or the state and also for the defense. correct? >> yes, sir. >> in fact, you were asked about several cases you had testified

on behalf of. i think you've testified in the -- you were nice enough to send me and mr. west your list of your cases, at least within the last five years since you've been in private practice -- is it seven years? >> it's six, going on seven now. >> and i think you said, what, over 50 times or so? do you recall the number? >> no, i don't think i said a number how many times i've testified. but again, as i pointed out, most of them are civil cases. >> right. i think one of them you mentioned was the drew peterson case. right? >> that was a criminal case, yeah. >> an then also the specter case, too. right? >> yes, sir. >> and both of those cases you testified for the defense. right? >> yes. >> by the way, how much are you

getting paid to come testify here today? >> same thing i charge everybody -- $400 an hour. >> how much total have you charged so far? you have to take a trip back but -- >> okay. up to yesterday, $2,4 hup. its -- this is not exactly a complicated case forensically. >> okay. you mentioned that i think you brought your notes with you. correct? >> yes. >> most experts i guess have their notes in case something is asked. what do you use it for? just to refresh your memory? >> no. because if you get a whole bunch of papers and you only are interested in one fact, it is easier to just put the fact down. that's all. >> so they're like little cheat notes -- i'm not saying anything improper -- >> no, i know what you mean. >> right? just like little bullet type things so you would be able to answer something or -- >> right.

bullets. >> i think you prepared what? a five or six-page notes that you provided to me this morning and to mr. west? >> yeah. five pages -- well, it's five pages but it is double spaced, double sided in some. so it is probably closer to 0 -- no, eight maybe. >> you also mentioned as part of your review in this case, obviously you couldn't be there when the autopsy was done so you actually reviewed the autopsy report. >> oh, yes. yes. >> an your opinion is, in part, derived from reviewing dr. bao's medical examiner report. correct? >> that's correct, sir. >> in terms of obviously the photographs that were taken but in terms of his findings, you know, shot to the heart -- correct? >> right, sir. >> there is no dispute about that. the deceased, the victim in this case, trayvon martin was shot in the heart. >> that's correct, sir. >> now did i understand you correctly that if you came over here and you you pulled my heart

out, that i could sit there and walk and talk for -- how long? >> 15 -- well, 10 to 15 seconds. yes. >> okay. so if you pulled my heart out now, i could keep talking and just keep talking and talking and talking for -- just talking and talking and talking without a heart. >> that's right. >> okay. >> for 15 seconds or so. >> right. between 10 and 15 second. it's dependent on oxygen supply to the head and that's why some of the s.w.a.t. people will prefer shooting somebody in the head if it is a situation where the person has like a gun on somebody else. >> now, even though my heart is gone, i would still feel some pain or would i not? >> oh, yeah, you'd still feel pain but -- right. >> now i think you stated that in this case you believe it was

12 to 15 -- or what did you say? 10 to 15 seconds or 5 to 10 -- >> no. what i said is, i can't say. all i can say is that the minimum amount of time would wo 10 and 15 seconds. >> okay. and you said the maximum would be up to three minutes. did i get that right? >> i said that in all medical probability, the individual would have no cardiac function after -- i said one to three minutes, so three minutes is the outside. >> and by the way, you're not here to testify as to while this was going on who was yelling for help, whether it was the victim or george zimmerman. you can't say it, right? >> no, sir. i'm not testifying to that. that's correct. >> in fact, you can't testify as to one of the statements that george zimmerman said, where he said he pulled a gun from his holster and shot. you can't say that happened that way, correct?

>> oh, you mean he pulled the gun out of the holster? >> yes, sir. >> right. i can just say the entries are consistent with how he shot him, but not where he got the gun from. >> in terms of the shot to the chest. >> right. >> but in terms of how he claims he grabbed the gun while the other person is kneeling over him or straddling him, how he managed to somehow get the gun out and shoot the other person, you can't say that happened that way or not. >> no, because that's before -- because you can't tell that by any scientific method. >> but george zimmerman said it happened that way. that doesn't mean it's true, right? >> as i said, sir, i can't testify to it. so that's it. >> okay. now, what happens -- it was just physically impossible to do what he said happened. >> i would say it. >> but you didn't get a chance to review that, and you're not here to testify about whether whether or not he took the gun out of the holster the way he did or not. >> right, because it's -- it's

outside my ability to make a conclusion like that. >> right, okay. you're just here focusing on the gun and how close it was to the skin or to the sweatshirt, correct? >> that's correct. >> that's the bottom line. >> yes, sir. >> now, is it not true, sir, that one possibility as you stated it is, mr. martin was over george zimmerman, the defendant, and he was like this, right? george zimmerman was down on the ground, and mr. martin's like this on top of him. >> well, he'd be some way over him. i don't know what angle it is. >> well, is it this angle? >> i can't tell you. the reason is, is because if you put your hand out, since it rotates, if someone was over horizontally, you could shoot that way. if they were at an angle, you could shoot that way, and you still get the path. all that i can say, it's consistent with him being over.

>> and it also could be consistent that they were facing each other standing up. >> you asked me that question once before. the problem with that is shirt would hang done. you would have to grab the shirt with the other hand and then pull -- grab the shirt, like pull it away this way. but the problem with that is if you then shot through the shirt in that area, when the shirt is let go and put back in position, the wound, because of that, moves over to the side. so the defect in the shirt would be over here if it was pulled this way. if you hold your finger on the shirt right here and then if you pull the shirt this way, you've moved it to where it would be overlined the gunshot to get it away from the chest. >> so you're saying that trayvon

martin had to physically be on top like this? >> i'm saying that the physical evidence is consistent with mr. martin being over mr. zimmerman. >> and is it not also consistent with mr. martin pulling away from zimmerman on the ground and you would have the same angle. he's pulling away, and zimmerman's shooting him at that time. >> yes. >> right? i think you said yes. >> yes. >> i apologize. i told you i was a little hard of hearing. i wanted to make sure. >> well, that should be interesting since both of us seem to be that. >> i was going to ask you what ear. anyway -- the other question i

had is, in terms of possibilities, you mentioned blunt trauma. i'm talking now about -- i'm switching a minute to george zimmerman's head, the defendant's head. >> right. >> in terms of that, concrete is a possibility, correct? >> right. >> or maybe a tree branch. that's a possibility for any of those bruises. >> if you hit someone in the back of the head with a tree branch. >> or if you bump into it. >> where? the face or the back of the head? >> either one. >> the problem with tree branches are if you hit it in the face, they're rough and you would expect an abrasion. >> well, didn't he have an abrasion on the face? >> no, he didn't have abrasions. >> what did he have? >> that's a contusion up there. >> and as the testimony continues that, does it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." thanks for being with us. remember, follow the show online

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oh yeah! hi there, everybody. i'm thomas roberts in for tamron hall. the news nation following the testimony by an expert witness for the defense in the george zimmerman trial. nationally renowned forensic pathologist, dr. vincent demaio. he's testified trayvon martin was on top of george zimmerman when zimmerman pulled the fatal shot. >> if, instead, you're lying on your back and somebody shoots you, the clothing is going to be against your chest. so the fact that we know the clothing was two to four inches away is consistent with somebody leaning over the person doing the shooting. >> dr.