oppression. >> over the weekend rallies and vigilles took place across the u.s. last night a gathering in new york's union square became an impromptu march to times square. in los angeles protesters shut down a freeway for nearly an hour. after the ruling, zimmerman's lawyers praised the jury's decision. >> we are ecstatic with the results. george zimmerman was never guilty of anything except protecting himself in self-defense. i'm glad that the jury saw it that way. >> but in the prosecution's closing remarks, attorney john guy posed this question. >> when a grown man, frustrated, angry, with hate in his heart, gets out of had his car with a loaded gun and follows a child, a stranger, in the dark and

shoots him through his heart. what is that? is that nothing? that's not anything? is that where we are? that's nothing? >> in its decision, the jury ruled that what zimmerman did is legal. at least under current law. so what, if anything, happens now? the department of justice confirmed it is already opened an investigation into whether zimmerman violated criminal civil rights statutes but proving racial animosity may and tall order. bre the lawyer for the martin family explained this morning why something needs to change. >> people are troubled by this because they see their own children walking home and are they safe now? because this verdict says certain children can have a target on their back just because of what they wear and how they look and there is a verdict now that says if they are accosted, they're not going to be held accountable.

that's every parent's nightmare. >> perhaps that something includes the nation's gun laws. according to the "new york times" editorial board, the verdict in the zimmerman trial is a sad commentary on the state of race relations and the battle over gun rights in america today. when the stand your ground laws intersect with lax conceal to carry laws it works essentially to self-deputize anyone with a kel tec 9 millimeter and a grudge. president obama noted in a statement on sunday, we should ask ourselves if we are doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. we should ask ourselves as individuals and as a society how we can prevent future tragedies like this. but the bigger issue and the thing most difficult to change may be the country's racial divide. the editorial board of "usa today" writes -- the fact remains that martin was doing nothing wrong. he was returning from a snack run at a convenience store despite all the nation's progress in burying its racist

part, minorities are commonly stopped by authorities or viewed by strangers as up to no good. for no other reason than the color of their skin. joining me today, host of msnbc's disrupt, karen finney. washington bureau chief of "the huffington post," ryan grimm. founder and president of the center for social inclusion, maya wiley. georgetown university professor and msnbc political analyst michael eric dyson. the conversation about race in this country, if it happens is a fraught one. i guess i wonder in the wake of the ruling of the george zimmerman trial how much you think this truly engenders a national conversation about skin color. >> it is really important that it has started a national conversation. i'd say the question is whether it is a good one. and if you think about what attorney mark o'mara said, which was probably one of the most jarring and incorrect things i've ever heard in terms of what the facts and. statistics tell us with, is that if george zimmerman was black,

he would have never been prosecuted. all of the numbers tell us the exact opposite is true, even if you look at stand your ground laws. so look at stand your ground laws. if you are white and have killed someone black, 35% chance that it is justifiable homicide. if you are black and shoot someone, 3% justifiable homicide. so i'm sorry, that's not an accurate, fair or honest conversation about race. >> michael, the next chapter of this may be the doj's investigation. but as we said in that intro, proving racial animus, definitively, is a difficult thing to do. proving that there is still racism in american society is a difficult thing. the question is, does the country's black attorney general who has become a straw man for much of the republican party take this on at this moment in time when we are incredibly divide over race, and over attorney general eric holder.

>> before i answer that, you are absolutely right. but when the people who rig the definition and litmus test have a bias to begin with, it is not going to be proof positive for you when you come along testing whether race or bias exists. we don't have to impugn mr. o'mara's character and integrity to say what you are talking about is on mars and we're on venus. because of the very way you perceive this. it is distance, analogy and proximate truth. you know how you felt on 9/11? yeah, that's how we feel when it comes to race. as far as eric holder -- the reality is you got to act now. the president, you won the second term, you're in office, you are ensconced. do something courageous, bold and helpful not only to after cab american people but to america, because lest we do this, white americans and others will feel this is a justifiable

verdict, this is how things happen. not until and unless the number of white kids die that approximate mate the numbers of black and other kids who die will america see it is beyond logic, it is about rationale, i think the attorney general will look at this and i think it is time for him to act. >> karen, it is one of the i think more distressing things -- there are many distressing things to come out of this trial. race was not talked about during the trial. the prosecutor john guy said in his closing argument this case is not about race, it is about right and wrong. i agree in some ways. but i absolutely think race is a part of it. now that the decision is handed down we are once again returning to the question of race which was not actually litigated in the court of law. >> it was the judge who say you can't talk about racial profiling when you talk about profiling. i do believe there should have been a way to introduce the concept of what it feels like. i understand -- i have a very personal intimate relationship with this. my mother is white, my father is

black. unless someone has looked you in the eye and you know they hate you only because your skin color or they fear you only because your skin color, it is hard to understand what are you talking about? like why wouldn't you have just said who he was? but i still think there was a way on a personal level to sort of bring that into the conversation. and what was the most disgusting was that in the closing arguments what mark o'mara basically said was, well, yeah, it was profiling but there were other black kids who had had done crimes so of course it was reasonable for him to think that. he basically gave the jury permission for whatever racial biases they, too, had brought to the -- >> not only the jury but a host of people in the political class have racial biases or hold on to stereotypes. steve king and rick perry come out the day after praising this. i think our justice sis tomorrow is colorblind? >> from texas? i'm sure do you think it is colorblind!

>> steve king says i'm sorry that it was turned into a race issue by the media. >> i think everything you didn't know about the conversation we are having and going to have is summed up by the fact that the judge would not allow the word "racial" to be used. can you say "profiling," but you can't say "racial profiling" as if it just doesn't exist. then she allows these people to go on the stand and say some other black people have invaded some other homes, what does that have to do with trayvon martin? he wasn't even that -- >> or whether george zimmerman knew that trayvon might have been -- obviously, he said he didn't know trayvon martin. he'd never seen him before. it is a dog whistle. >> there was no racial profiling. such a thing does not exist. however, if he was having some type of malthoughts, it was justified. >> here's the problem. the prosecution is supposed to be defending or offering a justification for trayvon martin. but if the judge rules that

racial profiling can't be include, therefore you limit the very possibility that i have and then the prosecutors themselves who appear to be incapable of understanding the experience of trayvon martin and putting it forward, and then they say. they say this is not about race when it is patently about race. >> here's the other thing going back to congressman king's comment. part of the reason that we don't have this national conversation is -- it is a hard conversation to have. it is a very intimate conversation but political, what happens -- particularly for a person of color, in politics you raise it, you are a racist. conservatives use to try to shut down the conversation. >> this is also on the heels of the supreme court striking down parts of the voting rights act with chief justice john roberts saying our country has changed. that has become a mean, in certain parts of the conservative thought, that we're done with this. this chapter has concluded. the zimmerman proves, hey, it is all done. >> because we miss -- because it

is an intentional way of ignoring what we know about how race works in america. so on one hand you want to see we are past this. have you a black president. proof positive. and by the way, he's only going to do stuff for black people. how is that not a conversation about race? what they are essentially saying is we'll have our conversation about race and we won't allow -- we'll try to shut down a broader conversation about race, by, by the way, has to include that we have not kept pace with how we do race in america, which is that most people, including george zimmerman, he did not use a racial epithet when he said "that guy is a f'ing punk." right? he's communicating -- legally. he's communicating the same thing, but we are going to deny that that's racialized in any way. >> that's a great point. it is a point. so that you can use -- you can

appeal to the set of images, stereotypes and practices that have been racially rooted but can you do so in a race neutral fashion. you can have racist consequence without having racist intent. you can have -- what i mean by that, you don't mean to call that other person the epithet, but you are appealing to his sense of humanity in this case so you draw from a pool of resources and ideas that have been prevalent in american culture so the brilliance of white supremacy is nobody has to be at the wheel driving. it is an automatic machinery that allows it to go forward. >> but this is also -- it is such a specific time in american history, right? because we have a black president -- >> who doesn't speak about race in public. that's important though. >> the conversation about "otherism," which rears its head in the immigration discussion, in the voting rights act discussion, sovereignty rights -- it's gotten so much more nuance as you point out, under the radar. it is so much still in

existence, and perhaps in a more corrosive way because it is part of the water supply. >> remember the associated press poll from 2012 which found -- this was not just polling, it was work with an academic. it did social science experiments that showed that we have had had -- we have jumped from 48% people having animosity against blacks in 2008 to 51% in 2012. that's at the conscious level. at subconscious level it's jumped up to 56% so we are living at a time when we have a lot of negative attitudes towards black. >> the poll that came out that said that most americans believe that black people are more racist than white people and more black people believe that black people are racist, too. we're misusing the word bigotry and buy yos and making them co-equal with racism.

racism -- bigotry and bias means i have trej distowards you as a person of color but there have never been laws in this country to lynch white men for looking the wrong way or behaving the right way. >> or to keep them from the polls. >> if there's no racism, what did george zimmerman do to become a folk hero on right? >> and what's most disturbing is that the race conversation, you're seeing a very partisan political reaction to this, which shows that one party is more aligned with one type of behavior and a set of stereotypes than another. find it deeply disturbing that there aren't some conservatives out there. >> the nature of the policy conversation when you hear paul ryan and others talking about snap programs and how "those people," they need to pick themselves up. we have these policy conversations without saying it directly. it is the exact same thing, when they talk about the kinds of budget cuts they want and the programs they want to cut and who had's "deserving" in this country and the makers and the

takers. we all know what they are talking about. >> i love throwing this stat out there -- 61% of people in ohio who were on food stamps are white people. >> martin luther king was in jail. he turned to his white jailer around says you've got more in common with with me than you have in common with these white people who are determining your whites. brilliance of white supremacy is to convince poor white people they are advantaged by the very thing that undermines them economically and political. i think eric holder is a courageous attorney general and we need the president to make a statement that acknowledges what he did in that brilliant speech he gave five years ago. race continues to be an issue. now what do we do. not as a black man but as the president of the united states of america. >> but we must also update the laws. >> the national conversation may be slow going but this is certainly happening on this show. center for social inclusions, maya wiley, thank you so much for joining us. after the break, edward

snowden stays on message while the obama administration coordinates one of its own. we will discuss the competing pr blitzes and privacy moderates next on "now." (announcer) at scottrade, our clients trade and invest exactly how they want. with scottrade's online banking, i get one view of my bank and brokerage accounts with one login... to easily move my money when i need to. plus, when i call my local scottrade office, i can talk to someone who knows how i trade. because i don't trade like everybody. i trade like me. i'm with scottrade. (announcer) scottrade. awarded five-stars from smartmoney magazine. trust your instincts to make the call. to treat my low testosterone, my doctor and i went with axiron,

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in his most recent public appearance at a meeting on friday with human rights organizations at moscow's airport, edward snowden characteristically gave ammunition to both his supporters and critics alike. on one hand he continued to make the case for his act of civil disobedience, while at the same time undermining it by lauding countries with questionable, if

not deplorable, human rights records. >> well, the u.s. constitution marks these programs as illegal. my government argues that secret court rulings which the world is not permitted to see somehow legitimizes an illegal affair. these nations, including russia, venezuela, bolivia, ni -- >> the comments trouble the guardian. "to list russia as -- >> president obama discussed snowed been his russian counterpart vladimir putin. details of the conversation were not disclosed but the administration's response was clearly coordinated both the west wing and the state department leveled similar

accusations regarding russia's propaganda platform. >> providing a propanda platform for mr. snowden runs counter to the russian government's previous declarations of russia's neutrality. >> you are saying this essentially wasn't a press conference but it might as well have been and you don't think -- and you don't think the russians should have -- >> facilitated a propaganda platform. >> yesterday the chairman of the house homeland security committee texas congressman mike mccall went even further. >> he's a traitor to this country. he took an oath of loyalty to the united states. and now he's running for cover with our enemies. the idea that he's in russia, i'm sure the russians love this. they are making a mockery of the united states foreign policy. >> snowden supporters have noted the irony of a government that conducts surveillance on its own citizens objecting to a propaganda platform and say the administration can't have it both ways which is to say

publicly welcoming a debate over domestic surveillance while simultaneously threatening the person who started the debate in the first place. still others including the atlantic's conners frieders ddorf that this is far more rad that will an any action taken by edward snowden. there isn't a document titled the plan to destroy global privacy, but that's what western intelligence agencies will do if left unopposed to their own devices. anyone who can't see that hasn't adequately grappled with the implications of snowden's revelations. i wonder what you make of that connors piece saying the true radicals are the people in the government expanding the surveillance state to the degree they are. >> they've been expanding the surveillance state and also the sort of war on leakers. it is very unfortunate that edward snowden is in russia.

it is randangerous and united states but there is a reason we haven't traditionally treated leaking to the press as a form of espionage or haven't held people in solitary confinement the way bradley manning was. they sort of raised the stakes and pushed him to become a national fugitive. they say they welcome this debate on privacy. we are having this debate but it is being treated a very extreme criminal action and it's led to very negative consequences when we could have had a debate. >> i think the administration -- and to some degree the media has been complicit on this, the saga of snowden. the information that he's revealed or at least brought into the dialogue regarding the fisa court which has rejected just 11 of the government's 33,900 surveillance applications since its inception. the fisa court is something that

the "new york times" has called a parallel supreme court. that is worthy of real discussion and debate. we are seeing some movement in congress. 15 senators, including three republicans, are now backing oregon senator's bid. >> this conversation's happening at the exact same time that james comey is headed to run the fbi. this is a guy being lionized in the press for his stand that he took under the bush administration, and that dramatic standoff in the hospital between the powers of the state and comey and ashcroft defending citizens constitutional rights. that thing that he defended and everybody celebrates him for defending is now basically in place, plus a ton more. now we are saying, well, it is legal, there are these secret court rulings, what are you talking about?

i don't have a lot of confidence the conversation will go in a fruitful direction. it is better for the u.s. government to talk about snowden. his numbers are under water, if you were a politician. just keep talking about him and not this surveillance state that you've built and you're better off. >> karen, i want you to respond. you have a skeptical look in your eyes. "the obama administration has stopped pretending they are not worrying about edward snowden." the coordinated talking points between jay carney, the propaganda platform, the president came out and said i'm not going to scramble fighter jets to get a 24-year-old hacker -- >> but i will call putin. the comments -- part of the challenge, because he is in russia, is that this does now involve our relationship with russia, with putin. i think that has further

complicated. i think that's part of why it is getting more attention. russia where you got a rock band in jail and saying, like this is the place for freedom, like come on, dude. to me the problem is like we as the media need to separate this out into two conversations. one conversation, snowden did break the law. we may not like that. we may still think of him as heroic for having put this information out there. but he did. but let's look at what that information is and what we need to know. i was just saying to matt, there is a story out today about how department stores track your movements around their stores by your cell stone. i'm as uncomfortable with that as i am the government. at the same time the other pieces, i was very disturbed to read this morning the piece that, he actually has so much more information. it is encrypted though so we shouldn't feel worried. >> he is a blueprint for the entire nsa. >> everybody's been criticizing the administration as a talking point. now he is basically saying it is

true. the fact is that does endanger our safety and our security. that i have a real problem with. i feel like, okay, if you were really just trying to be out there for freedom and transparency, he could have kept his name secret. co-have just done this -- >> well, i think in some ways snowden has been incredibly media savvy about all of this -- >> of course he has! >> -- by releasing videos in piecemeal fashion, giving interviews to human rights groups. trying to cloak himself in the banner of human rights, while at the same time saying very, very hypocritical things about countries with terrible human rights records. i ask be with you, eric michael di dyson, a constitutional law scholar, who we sense by his words and deeds and actions is someone who believes in rule of law and transparency, dealing with edward snowden if he can

actually get to him is a very, very tricky proposition. >> the crap is coming down and it ain't smelling good. you know? the reality is edward snowden's gone from birmingham jail to bronco chase. he's gone from king to o.j. it looks pretty bad for him. to karen finney's point, the people will say who defend edward snowden but if we'd have transparency we'd already know it is was a talking point. >> big brother standing over our shoulders, at the same time to defend national security. but the obama administration can't have it both ways. you've got to either be committed to that kind of transparency and do what's necessary to protect that or on the other hand you'll get the edward snowdens of the world who can beat you on an international stage. >> this saga is not over. putin today said when asked

about what's next for edward snowden, he replied how should i know, that's his life, his fate. >> you the man! >> it's noterd ward snowden. it's eat snow. >> can't we just have michael dyson on vladimir putin on edward snowden. that's meta television. it is doubtful that the washington style duel of tombstone will have a clear winner by sundown. we'll discuss the future of filibuster reform just ahead! time for the requests your business," entrepreneurs of the week. welcome is like hammering.

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i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. . moments ago, press secretary jay carney addressed the white house press corps regarding the president's reaction to the george zimmerman verdict. >> he did speak about it in personal terms and i think his statement yesterday reflects how the loss of a young person is a

source of great anguish and pain for the parents of that person, for the community where that person lived, that young person lived, and for the whole country. >> coming up after the break -- when one hears the term nuclear showdown, the names harry reid and mitch mcconnell do not often come to mind but there is plenty of fallout on the senate floor last week after an epic smackdown of nominations. we'll discuss the other "f" word and the gop's aversion to actual law making next on "now." "stubborn love" by the lumineers did you get my email? i did. so what did you think of the house?

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i have known the leadbeen the l same time linden johnson. for him, one filibuster. for me? 420. president obama's had 16 fill busters against his nominations. during the history of this entire country there's only been 0. >> we have never changed the rules of the senate by breaking the rules of the senate in order to diminish the voices of individual senators. we've never done and we sure shouldn't start it now. >> on any given week in washington, toxicity is a given but this week business on the hill could get slowsive as the senate approaches a showdown between harry reid and mitch mcconnell over the so-called nuclear option. the one would allow the senate to approve executive branch nominees with a simple majority. at issue is the historic and unprecedented obstruction of president obama's cabinet picks. throughout most of time, a president's executive nominees were rarely questioned, but not

today. as is the case with a handful of other civilized traditions on capitol hill, under this congress the once civil process of allowing a president to fill his cabinet has become a contentious, slow moving and highly partisan battle. today senate republicans have slow walked the confirmation of president obama's nominees at unprecedented levels. in fact, if they keep obstructing at this rate the gop will have filibustered more of president obama's executive branch nominees than any other president in american history combined. so, changing this process would seem to be a reasonable idea, but according to mitch mcconnell it will spell the end of democracy as we know it. last week senator mcconnell's campaign tweeted out this photo of a tombstone with the line "if reid changes the rules to kill the filibuster, kill the senate will be on his tombstone." but harry reid isn't finished engraving just yet. before heel pulls the trigger on the nuclear option, all 100

senators of the united states congress meet privately tonight to try to reach a compromise for one last time. it remains to be seen of the civilities of days past can bridge the partisanship and obstructionism of today. everybody on the republican side keeps saying it wasn't like this in the old days. back in the old days things happened in congress. doesn't it seem like this is one of the ways we can make our senate and our congress slightly functional? >> absolutely. at this point who would care if the senate was killed? tho they're not doing anything that anyone likes. senator reid talked about their low approval ratings. it is not that the quantity of filibuster is presented but the reason these nominations are being blocked. they didn't to create a consumer financial protection bureau so they won't confirm a director.

they don't believe there should be labor laws in the united states so they won't confirm a labor relations board. any ti-- nominees have been rejected before by both parties but you have a have a system where the government can continue even though there is some disagreement about what laws we should have. >> these are "the laws." there was this moment yesterday on "meet the press" where there was this accusation by mitch mcconnell it was a bill. it is law! it is law of the land and it's been confirmed law of the land by the supreme court. this goes to the point, there is a sort of systematic refusal to govern on the part of the gop that's not coming to the table to compromise on bills but also trying to unwind or not acknowledge the laws that are in place. that's become part of the thesis of the be conservative project as written in congress. >> it is a truly remarkable

phenomenon. you fight something in congress. you lose. fight it in an election. this takes it to a whole other level. we are not going to allow you to execute this. i don't think harry reid actually wants to go forward with this. he'd actually rather mitch mcconnell dave. it's not really up to reid anymore. he's locked and loaded. it is up to mitch mcconnell. i don't know if he will cave because he might be looking at it from his position as running for his seat in kentucky. he might think this actually helps me to nationalize the race in kentucky. for mitch mcconnell, if it means destroying the senate, he'll do it if it means getting elected to it. >> you don't even have to filibuster anymore. you just have to threat ton filibuster. these men can't keep up with

wendy davis, right? it is not like they even have to do the work of filibustering. well now it is like i'm going to take your pen. i'm going to take your pen! we'll go off and talk about it. this is folly, this is drama. you might as well go see the new super man movie. this is a washington drama. nothing is going to change. i guarantee it. >> i think it is so crass that mitch mcconnell may use this to fund raise off of as ryan points out a senate staffer said mcconnell actually wants the nuclear option to get put in place? it would help him raise money with the base and not negotiate against nominations the base doesn't like. lamar alexander told politico the more we think about it, the more attractive it comes. you can come back to the ashes of the senate and get re-elected. >> you want to be the phoenix rising from the ashes. but this is what we've come to, we are willing to destroy the

country for prurpurposes of a political vocation that will not have a place to rest itself. this is where we are in america right now. it is beyond partisan bickering. this is about the subversion of american democracy as we know it. maybe this is not how a democracy should be. let's get rid of them, not our democracy. >> the senate's been subverting democracy for 200 years. >> nothing's going to happen. at this point it is harry reid saying i'm crazy enough to do it and mitch mcconnell saying we're crazy enough to let you. >> matt, 100 senators meeting together to talk about getting something done. are you bullish or bearish? >> we had a crisis like this in 2005. ultimately the democrats were filibustering at that time. they backed down on a handful of judicial nominees in order to preserve the right to full

bustebust er. nobody likes the senate but senators love the senate. >> on -- >> given their age, it is a game of chicken-neck. >> wow. we have to take a break. if season one was about the news and news business, season two just might be about the people and mistakes they make in reporting it. we will get a sneak peek of the new seechason of hbo's "the newsroom" just ahead. every day we're working to be an even better company - and to keep our commitments. and we've made a big commitment to america. bp supports nearly 250,000 jobs here. through all of our energy operations, we invest more in the u.s. than any other place in the world. in fact, we've invested over $55 billion here in the last five years - making bp america's largest energy investor. our commitment has never been stronger.

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last season it was all about gabby giffords, the bp oil spill, the killing of bin laden and a handful of legal woes. this season on the hbo's "the newsroom," it is occupy wall street, benghazi, drones and a whole lot of litigation. >> 14 months ago you called the tea party the american town band. what happened since then. >> a lot. >> good evening. this is "news night." >> you're going to be officially condemned on the house floor tomorrow. >> seems like when we called then the american taliban, they minded. >> i thought let the chips fall when they may. you know what i think now? chips are falling. >> we don't have the trust of the public anymore! >> no one responsible for the broadcast will ever work again. >> joining me now is the creator of hbo's "the newsroom," academy and emmy award winning screen

writer aaron sorkin. it is great to have you on set. i will point out just how short the script was leading into this introduction because of the paralyzing fear that struck us when we thought about writing an introductory any kind of monologue when you on set. >> nobody on this show should fear anything. >> talk about season two. we know that you made a couple changes. one of those changes was bringing in some folks from the news industry. i was among them. >> i brought in some professional consultants -- >> and some bottom-feeding skallywags. >> having you you around to tell us what to do made all the difference. >> yes. i look forward to episodes -- >> we have nine episodes this season. >> the first season focused on the news stories and how they were covered. there was a lot of commentary about how this is how the news

perhaps should have been covered. season two, the team is in the middle of litigation over not covering a story correctly or the outlines of it are not specific. give us a sense or tell us why the shift at least in the first episode from the news story to the news steam and their misstaeps. >> i understand there is an impression i'm trying to leverage hindsight into here's how you should have done it. i understand how that inference is made. that was the farthest thing from what i wanted to do. i lot of dynamic that happens between -- with the audience when the audience knows more than the characters do, whether all the president's men or titanic or what we are doing. i love that feeling of trepidation that you have the option of going to when the audience knows that when they get the wire report that a protest has broken out in front of the american consulate in

benghazi, the audience knows way more than the characters do. in show has never been an attempt to tell the pros how they should do their job. >> in terms of what's happened for the first episode for season two, we know they are in some hot water. there is a couple moments in the first episode where you get the sense that the speed of the news cycle, whether that's the dsk fact check that they get wrong or the genoa scandal that they get wrong, that the cycle itself is really undermine being the integrity of news gathering. that's a commentary on how hard it is to do good news in the age of a 24/7 news cycle. >> i just want to emphasize again, writing a television show that takes place in the newsroom, the difference between writing a television show that takes place in a newsroom and working in a newsroom is the same as the difference between drawing a building and building a building. which is to say they are

unrelated. i know it seems like they are, but one of the things that i will cop to knowing about the news is that it is really hard to do. >> i guess i wonder when you look at sort of -- let's talk about washington. that's a huge part of coverage both on the newsroom and in the news. i thought it was really fr lly interesting. james walcott talked about all these washington centric dramas. forget what you've seen on c-span, beneath the glacial pace of progress is a churning top-dog struggle. the genre of washington melodrama is a far more malignant game thrones, blood pooling beneath the presidential seal. we would attribute the beginning of this to the "west wing." i don't know if you would say there was blood pooling -- >> no. the difference between the west

wing and the shows he names -- particularly house of cards. it is kichbnd of the anti-west wing. until "the west wing," our leaders in government had been portrayed as machiavellian. they get up in the morning, acorrupt, just thinking about us and wanting to do good. >> to reiterate what you said before, when you started db embarked on "the newsroom," you talked about this being your love letter to cable news or to news and news gathering in the news industry. >> absolutely. and it still is which is why i'm just trying to correct the perception that i'm correcting the news. which i'm first of all not capable of doing, and, b, don't feel any desire to. i'm trying to -- it is sort of supposed to be a celebration.

>> we'd like to have you in our newsroom to correct the news alongside as we do it. i think we'd be a better channel for it. >> you'd be doing long speeches with with gilbert and sullivan. >> aaron sorkin, always a pleasure. creator of hbo's "the newsroom." thank you to our panel today, matthew, karen, ryan and michael. that's all for now. i'll see you back here tomorrow at noon eastern. "andrea mitchell reports" is coming up next. [ male announcer ] this is betsy.

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i'm still trying to wrap my mind around like what happened. >> i have three sons. not one of those sons that i have to