lawrence o'donnell. thank you for joining us. have a good one. >> before president obama threatened military action against syria, there were seven >> before president obama threatened military action against syria, there were seven countries in the world that had not joined the united nations convention on chemical weapons. tonight, there are six. expectations are high. there ought to be consequences. >> john kerry. >> john kerry arrived in geneva. >> meeting with his russian counterpart. >> to put syria's chemical weapons under international control. >> hours before the meeting a new twist. >> russia's president -- >> rebuking president obama. >> putin writing an op-ed in the pages of the "the new york times." >> how did it make you feel? >> i was insulted. >> i didn't agree with him. >> i hear he is looking to anchor a show on msnbc.

>> everybody is taking offense to it. >> what about the political implications of this? >> we expect president putin to put forward actions. >> expectations are high. >> hostage diplomacy. >> this can not just drag on. >> and return to regularly scheduled divisive political programming. >> boehner facing insurrection. >> republican leaders were forced to pull their continuing resolution. >> does speaker boehner have control of the republican party. >> when weep have something to report we'll let you know. >> speaker boehner seems out of ideas. >> there are a million options. >> we will not -- >> with potential for a government shut down and looming debt ceiling fight. >> the truth is stranger than fiction. the obama administration's

pressure on the assad regime in syria resulted in the syrian government joining the united nations chemical weapons convention today. leaving only six countries in the world that have not signed on to the chemical weapons convention. this afternoon the syrian ambassador to the united nations, made this announcement. >> with this -- the chapter of the so-called chemical weapons -- should be ended. and legally speaking, syria has become, starting today a full member of the convention. >> the u.n. secretary-general, ban ki-moon said he received a letter from the government of syria informing him that president al assad has signed the legislative decrease. the secretary of general welcomes this development. the chemical weapons convention,

prohibits the development, production, acquisition, stockpiling, pretension, transfer, by state parties. as a member syria will create a plan for destroying its chemical weapons. in geneva secretary of state john kerry began discussions with russia's foreign minister to prevent the assad government from using chemical weapons again. >> i am hopeful that -- that discussions, secretary kerry had with -- with the foreign minister lavrov as well as some other players in this can yield a concrete result. i know he is going to be working hard over the next several days to see -- what the possibilities are there. >> secretary kerry reiterated -- expectations are high. they're high for the united

nations. perhaps even more so for russia to deliver on the promise of this moment. i said that to my friend sergei, when we talked about it initially. it has to be real. it has to be comprehensive. it has to be verifiable. and it has to be credible. it has the to be timely. and implemented in a timely fashion. and finally -- there ought to be consequences. if it doesn't take place. >> the consequences contemplated by secretary kerry and president obama still include military action. >> we are serious about engaging in substantive negotiations as our military maintains its posture to keep up the pressure on outside regime. only the credible threat of

force and the intervention of president putin and russia based on that has brought the assad regime to acknowledge for the first time that it even has chemical weapons and an arsenal. and that it is now prepared to relinquish it. president obama has made clear that should di policemen see fail, force should be necessary to degrade assad's capacity to deliver the weapons. it won't get rid of them but it could change his willingness to use them. >> in an interview with a russian news agency today. assad said this. when we see that the united states desires stability our region and ceases its threats and endeavors to attack us as well as ceases its deliveries of weapons to terrorists, then we will believe that we can carry the necessary processes through

to completion, and they will enter into force and be acceptable for syria. u.s. officials confirm to nbc news that the cia is continuing to provide small arms to the syrian opposition. here is how white house press secretary jay carnie responded to assad's comments. we are providing assistance to the opposition, the military and political opposition. and again, you know, conditions and demands. placed by someone who -- a few weeks ago. blithely used weapons against innocent children, so we could all watch them die in videos are a little hard to take. >> joining me now, alex wagner and chris hays. alex wagner, another day, a signatory to the united nations convention on chemical weapons. a good day for the obama administration. >> it is a good day.

it is a good thing there is one less country in the word, one fewer country that is not going to use chemical weapons on its own people with impunity or theoretically. i do think it is worth an asterisk as we sort of praise the administration and get excited about the development that the syrians are still saying, referring to them as the the so-called chemical weapons. i think there is much to beep determined -- be determined as far as how serious, ceding control of the stockpile, acknowledging it exists, truly exists, where all of it is. and ceding control of that to the international community and destroying it. a massive operation that could takes if not years. >> if that is any one from the u.n. calling. >> that's sergei, he wants to reply to john kerry. >> not me, unfortunately. >> we would have seen no movement in the territory if president obama hadn't taken the actions he has taken. >> i think that's right.

it's unclear what prompted this aside from putin seizing an opportunity to forestall a strike which i think he did not want. russian experts i talked to have said, yeah, the russians really didn't want the americans to lob a bunch of missiles into the region for a whole variety of reasons. there is a case to be made. the flip side. people tend to miss. they emphasize. what has been equally important the courage frankly to stand up to the political incriminations that will come to actually take them up on the offer to negotiate. right? what you are seeing is bob corker calling the administration weak. everybody beating up on the feckless, zigzagging policy. no. that's what you want. every day that goes by we are not engaged in war, a, and b, assad can't use chemical weapons

right now. one thing for sure, as this process plays out. however troubled the process might be. it is very hard to imagine the dye deployment of the weapons. every day that goes by in the conflict. the u.s. is not involved in the war. assad is not using chemical weapons is achieving the aims the president may have. what i am hearing the criticism of the president, this week, the craving for the george w. bush absolute certainty every minute unchangeable certainty in the face of changing evidence. >> there is a really good analysis of how each side interpreted president obama's decision thus far in "the new york times" by peter baker. one size says we want a decisive president, to your point, lawrence. as chris outlines. this is how first you can't outline a foreign policy doctrine. it is almost impossible given the changing nature of the globe. that is not comforting to a lot of, a lot of people.

a lot of foreign policy hawks in particular. seeing this diplomacy in a transparent fashion is a sea change from where we have been as a country. not saying it is necessarily wrong. this is different than how america has conducted itself. >> i think you are seeing agility, seeing it done in an agile fashion not locked in cement first day. >> sort of amazing to watch kerry up there against lavrov. he opened the door with a comment, meant to be dismissive. the state department said he was not offering that. up there next to lavrov, to kerry's credit and the white house credit they're just pretending they wanted to dupe -- do this. the stuff out of which international peace are made are a million diplomatic lies, disingenuous statements. >> in the white house defense, the option was discussed at los cabos, g-20. trying to make the case this is always something they wanted. to your point they accommodated the twists and turns. >> what is diplomacy, but talking.

john kerry was talking in a press conference. said something that that meaning to the other side. he didn't think it would have meaning. it did. they've went to work. >> i don't want to be a frowny face all over of this. >> just keep smiling. all you have to do. >> sergei will call. >> exactly. but, you know. president obama didn't consult with john kerry. john kerry was out there. sergei lavrov came with his deal. the white house embracing it. leaving john kerry out there to pick up the pieces and negotiate in geneva. let us not underestimate the skills of vladimir putin not a good dude by any stretch of the imagination. as a former kgb operative, taking out on-eds in a calculated series of move off to get international sort of, win the international debate over who is in charge here. in the on-said piece.

putin is ceding factual ground. he wasn't willing to leave as possible in the past. what people are looking for. why doesn't putin say what we think he should say the how dare he say, he doesn't think america is exceptional? there is a lot of countries in the world that don't think america is exceptional. don't expect it in "the new york times." >> americans are not used to being lectured to by other world leaders. i think people's offense. and putin is not a good dude. the way he is running russia, is the way, i lefty that i am will approve of. >> conducted themselves on the international stage. he started two wars. he has been brutal in chechnya. there are russian troops in georgia as we speak. there was no u.n. security council that allowed them. all of that aside. the fact of the matter is, this,

this way of hearing a foreign leader talk about what you should do is something a lot of the world has experience of with our leaders. who go out and tell the world what to do all the time. not to say there is a moral equivalent. u.s., russia. et cetera. et cetera. it is fascinating to watch how offended the american political system was by the one op-ed today when that is par for the course around the world all the time. >> let's listen to what jay carnie said about this question, can the president trust vladimir putin. >> i think the point of that is -- that actions speak louder than word. and that we will -- if weave can relieve a dictator of his stockpiles of chemical weapons and never use them against innocent civilians again. credit will be due off to the

russians and everyone else who participates in the process to make it happen. we'll see if it happens. >> if the united states has set out to prevent assad from using chemical weapons again, and assad does not use chemical weapons again, how is that not a win for the united states? >> i think you are right. the question, lawrence, will be there is a larger humanitarian situation here. where people were killed with the weapon of choice in syria. not chemical weapons. ak 47s. the question of the gruesomeness of children dying at night. by guns. is that worse than them dying at night by gas. i don't think that that, the white house has been very smart in terms of framing this very narrowly to your point. they can call it a victory. the if question is still very much out there. in terms of whether the russians are actually serious about this. let us not forget. they shipped a billion dollars worth of arms to the syrians in 2011. they have been giving the guys cover for a long time. have a lot of vested interest in keeping assad in power. >> you can watch alex wagner as i dupe every day, noon eastern.

and chris hayes, 8:00 p.m. here on msnbc. thank you both for joining me tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. >> coming up the man whose op-ed appeared beside putin's in "the new york times." he will answer this question his column asked today -- when has violence, killing and aggression helped anything? >> in the "rewrite" we try to figure out rand paul's position on syria with a little help from steven colbert. with the spark miles card from capital one,

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texas governor rick perry frying to bring jobs from places to texas not from other countries. perry is hunting for jobs in other states. rick perry's job hunt has gone through missouri, illinois, california and now he is running ads, tv ads in maryland attacking that state. a spokesperson for maryland governor martin o'malley released a statement saying

maryland has had the number one public schools in the nation for five years in a row since 2007 we have done more than any other state to hold on the cost of college tuition. number one in median income. u.s. chamber of commerce named us one in the state for in know -- for innovation. governor perry should come to maryland to see the better choices that have led to the better results. no word yet on when governor perry might be visiting maryland. up next, president obama's threat of military action in syria has actually accomplished. [ male announcer ] when it comes to doing what you love,

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beside vladimir putin's on-ed piece in "the new york times" beside it is one entitled that threat worked. times columnist, nicholas christophe. it begins for all of you innumerable skeptics of president obama's calls for military strike on syria, kid this. joining me now two-time pulitzer prize winning "the new york times" columnist, nicholas christophe. you talk in here about your intervention, past interventions, u.s. presidents well known to all of us. there was some surprise when you came out in favor of the

president's position on these strikes before they were called off. >> right. >> tell us how you got there in this case. >> sure. i must say every time i open my mouth and talk about this i lose another few friends. war is a terrible thing. mass atrocities that we could prevent and don't. we would have been better going into rwanda saving lives lost there. in retrospect we were wise to go into bosnia, military strikes that achieved the dayton peace accord. intervention in kosovo, mali. i think that everybody is very much, by the overhang of iraq invasion. you never want to touch military purr again. at the end of the day, there are times when military power really can make a life saving

difference. i don't think we should make blanket assumptions about its use. >> your conclusion, that that threat has worked. look what it has harvest sewed far. >> absolutely. it is tentative t it is uncertain. the whole deal may fall apart at any moment. right now we have a measure of progress. and i think it is -- impossible to imagine that having happened. if that threat had not been on the table. i think it is equally important to keep that threat alive or else this will become a way of dragging the u.s. along playing us, us look a yo-yo. >> unfortunately, our recent history -- hurt this particular strategic approach. when george w. bush said, i am asking for the authorization. he kind of suggested he might not use it under certain circumstances. we all right felt he was really going to use it. that notion, asking for an authorization, militarily that i might not use is a perfectly

legitimate strategic option that is taken off the table by congress. >> they distrust any intelligence that comes out. distrust humanitarian motive off to try to intervene. i have got to say in 2003. i was aghast i had so many liberal friends that were embracing invasion of iraq. today i am troubled i have so many liberal friend unwilling to contemplate the use of force at a time when 100,000 syrians have died. and when that, the scale of the tragedy is going to rise into the hundreds of thousand if nothing more is done. >> let's listen to what president obama said to his liberal friends. >> to my friend on the left. i ask you to reconcile your belief in freedom and dignity for all people. with the images of children writhing in pain, and going still on a cold hospital floor. for some times resolutions, and statements of condemnation are

simply not enough. you say in your piece we have to address the fundamental questions can we really promote peace with military force. is it possible to help of a country by bombing it? >> is it possible? the answer is unequivocally yes. we helped in sierre leon. you had rebel force chopping off the arms of kids. with a small effort by british forces in mali earlier this year even. but there are also clearly occasions where it failed. i don't think there is any clear lesson of history about the use of force. make a judgment on the facts on the ground. scale of casualties. whether or not you can make a difference. on balance, the case of syria. it seem we can. other people disagree. you know that is a reasonable disagreement. if people are making the

judgment that no matter what the level of atrocities, no matter genocide or what. that we will in no case use military force to stop mass atrocities. i think that would be tragic for the world. >> the mission of the obama administration's approach to this has been to stop the use of chemical weapons. they haven't expressed a larger ambition their regime change and things like that. when are we going to notice it has stopped. and when we think about the possible thing that can go wrong in the negotiations in geneva and so forth down the road. is it possible to conceive of assad actually going back and using chemical weapons again. given where we are today at this hour? >> i mean you never want to say it will never happen again. because then an hour later it will. but, i do think that -- look at the end of the day, the benefits of using military weapons are modest. a weapon to terrorize people. if he thinks there is a

substantial price. he is not going to use them. we deterred him from further use of chemical and biological weapons as well. that is important. it doesn't address the larger issue of 5,000 people dying a month. >> yeah, nicholas christophe. thank you for joining us. appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> coming up why ted cruise may be almost as annoying to congressional republicans as he is to democrats. >> it is still important to ♪

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>> it is still important to recognize that we got a lot of more stuff to do here in this government. the american people are interested in making sure our kids are getting the education -- education they deserve, putting people back to work dealing with the federal budget, bills are getting paid on time, full faith and credit of the united states preserved. >> a battle over the budget means a battle inside the republican party. >> i want to be brutally honest about this fight to defund obama care. if the traditional rules of washington apply, we can't win. i can't win this fight. mike lee can't win this fight. rand paul can't win this fight. no elected politician in washington can win this fight. only you can win this fight. >> politico reports, some

republican house staff members are trying to force the senate to make the first move on the budget so sensor ted cruz will be forced to take a stand before action in the house. republican leadership wants to see him and others stand up and filibuster. the cr in short, the house is sick of getting blamed for being weak on obama care. democrats welcome the opportunity to exploit the conflict in the republican party. >> hey, listen. i like john boehner. i like him. i do feel sorry for him. i mean, he -- he has to break away from those people who are ruining the republican party. and -- hurting our country. >> joining me now, msnbc political analyst and mccain 2008 senior adviser steve schmidt, and nbc policy analyst, ezra klein. steve, for ted cruise, the senate going first is not exactly the way he wants to see this happen.

>> i think for ted cruise this is about 2016. >> everything is. >> it's brilliant politics for him. in the sense that if people follow his pickets charge and lead the congressional republicans into a political debacle. raise the president from his tough position right now. in a head-to-head against republicans. potentially cost republicans because of a government shutdown. seat in the house. a couple lost senate seats. at the end of the day. ted cruise will go out there, he went be blamed for the stupidity of the tactics. he is going to go out and say there weren't enough true believers. there were too many rhinos. i was sabotaged. if i am the nominee. i can deliver. stand up against obama care. end of the day. ted cruise, despite stupidity of tactics and the harm. the blame will fall on the weak-kneed republicans who had

been undermining the conservative cause. >> ezra klein what are the legislative vehicle that will be coming their way that republicans will have to decide how to cast their votes? >> i think at the moment they don't know yet. of course, the ted cruise idea is that they will produce a continuing resolution. and does not have obama care in it. when it gets rejected the government will shut down. then we will see what happens. if it goes to the senate. a full continuing resolution that funds obama care. maybe ted cruise will filibuster it. get votes against it. he will eventually. fairly quickly fail. i think that, everything steve says is right. in the senate there are a lot of folks not so happy with the bind ted cruise is putting them and house republicans in. i do one interesting thing here as you know, they had how to pull the continuing resolution vote from the floor wednesday thought. they could get it done in the house. failed at that. delaying until time indeterminate now.

if they've don't figure this out. if they get through the government shutdown by promising a war on the debt ceiling. we end of in october in a much more dangerous place. i would much prefer to see the battle take place over shutting down the federal government for a couple days than sparking international finance crisis over a debt ceiling breach mid october. >> steve. there its ted cruise saying, you know i can't stop this. he does indeed have the filibuster power in the senate. he named rand paul and mike lee along with him. could help him in a filibuster. the house republicans know that he uniquely has filibuster powers. something house republicans don't have. so they're getting, obviously pretty weary of the way he is talking about house republicans. tip is a great idea. you laugh to call it out you.

have to expose it. ezra its exactly right. when you look at everything that is going on in the world. you look at the tactics and what it could produce. and the context of global financial instability. you can cause a lot of instability in the markets. you can wipe out a lot of gains. a lot of wealth in the market. you know over the course of this year. because of political dysfunction. you look at the claps of trust in the government and in general. you look at the low standing of republicans in the congress and, in particular. nothing but bad results that come with is. one good result, the self-interested one. his position in his starting lane among base republicans for 2016 racing. as you see the cruise phenomenon. what that worth? growth in a presidential primary. he represents a minority of the republican vote, doesn't he? >> i believe republican nominees

are always determined on the -- you know in the context of their electability. we nominate the most conservative person that can win. until we don't. the republican party has changed. one of the effects of the last couple months. marco rubio has fallen out of contention. you know, as some one who has a shot to be, to be the republican nominee. and i think ted cruz is replaced him. >> over immigration. >> over immigration. i think it's just over -- a general mishandling of a number of issues, even on syria. as he is trying to get right with the base of the party. every time -- you start to maneuver to the right. left. and the base recognizes that. you are called out, exposed. you lose favor of the tea party base. put you in office against crist. he has a bright political feature.

don't think top tier presidential candidate. ted cruise has emerged into the space along with rand paul. and along with chris christie. at the starting line. ted cruise will run in the space of the true believer, real conservative. the guy that will go out. take the fight to the democrats. not a squishy moderate whose pragmatism kept 4 1/2 million true believing conservatives at home. ted cruise will turn them out. so, as deranged or delusional as the rationale will be it will have resonance in a certain base of the republican, certain base of the republican party. >> ezra as we were approaching the strong possibility of military force in syria it seemed to me that there would not possibly a government shutdown any kind of government funding crisis as long as we were engaged in any way militarily in syria. now with that seemingly on hold and increasingly unlikely, does that make it increasingly likely

that we could have a government shutdown? >> i think it absolutely does now. that we are not going to war in the very near future it seems. congress can get back to being incredibly. incredibly irresponsible. the thing that people need to watch in the house. you heard the house whip saying. you are telling people. telling house republicans. don't shut the government down over obama care. the debt ceiling is where you want to have the fight. they do this over and over and over again. in order to live through tomorrow and get through the crisis this a create a big one down the road. i can't say how much more serious it is. you have boehner, macarthur, trying to got through the current moment. creating a dangerous crisis in, three, four, weeks. that is a worrying development. >> thank you beth for joining me tonight. >> thank you. >> coming up. rand paul rewrites rand paul.

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>> rand paul making the round of friendly cable news shows and delivering a teleprompter assisted speech on line in response to president obama's televised address to the nation. >> good evening. 12 years after we were attacked by al qaeda, 12 years after 3,000 americans were killed by al qaeda, president obama now asks us to be allies with al qaeda. yes it began with a grotesque lie. rand paul tells so many lies with so much absurdity and does it so often the news media has given up trying to police the preposterous statements of rand paul. stephen colbert characterized his speech responding to the president. >> in the traditional state of the rand speech. >> colbert found himself deeply confused by the state of the

rand speech when juxtaposed with other rand paul statements made that very same day because colbert is one of the old-fashioned political analyst whose craves consistency. colbert struggled to figure out how rand paul could be emphatically in favor of doing nothing while insisting "assad should be held accountable." and colbert d his best, how rand paul could say "assad deserves death" but does not deserve to be forcibly removed from office. here is colbert trying to make sense of rand paul. >> now, paul has been opposed to military action from the beginning, so he was thrilled by russia's diplomatic proposal. >> i don't know whether to trust the proposal or not. the question is are they serious.

can we trust the participants in the plan? >> you can't always trust. for instance that thing on your head. you, you assure us that it is hair. but i have yet to be convinced not a slumbering wombat ready to strike at any time. so you know what, i agree with rand paul. we cannot trust russia or syria. killing civilians is bad but not that bad. we shouldn't do anything. >> a violation of every norm for some one to kill civilians. assad should be accountable. >> absolutely. got to hold him accountable. what are we as a nation? not accountable? i agree with rand paul. no, jimmy, second rand paul. all right. thank you. must hold them accountable with the president's plan of limited strikes, send a message. >> they have said the world will be unbelievably small and limited. to me that sound like they're preannouncing that the military strikes will not punish assad personally or affect regime -- regime.

>> death it is. regime change. shock and awe. bombs away. >> if we bomb assad it will be more likely the country becomes more unstable. >> just about any bad outcome you can imagine is made more likely by u.s. involvement in the syrian civil war. >> okay. ooh was wrong. this is the rand paul i agree with. think about it if we take out the guy who gasses children, somebody bad might take over. just to recap, rand paul says, no diplomacy, can't dupe nothing. no to the president, no to regime change. taken al together that's really -- ha. you know what i am not sure how i would describe rand paul's response to the president. um, you know what? rand paul how would you describe rand paul? >> i think he has been ape little bit here, little bit there, a little bit everywhere. i don't think he makes sense. >> you know what, you could not

have said it better yourself. we'll be right back. >> okay. not everything rand paul's staff put in his teleprompter is crazy. not all of it is untrue. rand paul freak went -- frequently says things that appeal to foreign policy libertarians but makes sure he serves the racists among this devoted followers. not saying all rand paul supporters are racist. i'm saying some of them are. i don't know how many. and some of them are haters of president obama. some of them do not believe that president obama was born an american citizen. and rand paul made sure he serviced them. in the very first sentence of his state of the rand speech. quote, president obama now asks us to be allies with al qaeda."

does that lie appeal to racists? check. does that lie appeal to haters of president obama? check. does that lie appeal to people who believe president obama is a member of al qaeda? check. and rand paul know he's can get away spreading poison because he knows the washington media will take him seriously as his first name is senator. which is why, america will always need stephen colbert. i think farmers care more about the land

than probably anyone else. we've had this farm for 30 years. we raise black and red angus cattle. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us.

>> what progressives can learn from the nra when they're talking about guns. coming up next. hey linda!

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don't tell mom. okay. don't tell mom. don't tell mom. don't tell mom? yeah. the best stories you'll ever tell start with, don't tell." don't tell dad. start yours in the new santa fe. from hyundai. last night two democratic state senators in colorado suffered losses in recall elections first recall elections in colorado history on tuesday that removed them from office because they voted for background checks for gun purchases and banning ammunition over 15 round. inevitably, the gun lobby will now claim the colorado elections prove that politicians should back off even minimal gun regulations. but the elections say the opposite. they say if the gun lobby is going to continue turning a

policy debate into a cultural one -- then an equally powerful cultural argument need to be made in response. joining me now -- david sorrota. when i read your column, opened my eyes to approaches i have not considered. in the thick of it in colorado. what are progressives missing abut how to handle these types of debates. >> what happened here in colorado, lawrence, the democrats passed a sensible set of gun control measures. then thought they could go away from it, ignore it, not worry about it. not continue to sell it. what ended up happening was the very motivated gun extremists in this state, mounted a set of campaigns, recall campaigns, to highlight the issue, take out democrats, give the nra a gift of saying here is a way to scare other legislators all across the country by passing sensible regulations.

i think what the lesson should be is not that those, those sensible regulations should, shouldn't be pushed, they should be pushed. they're still popular statewide in the state. but, if and when you pass them, you have to make as emotional an appeal on those, use as the right will make against those issues. if and when the right claims these bills confiscate people's guns. not only do democrats have to say that is not true. also say that what the nra and gun lobby's agenda is doing is confiscating the lives of children. those kind of emotional arguments need to be made to motivate gun control voters to level of intensity to anti-gun control voters. >> david, i am wondering in addition to stimulating your support among the people who are in favor of reasonable gun control. you are also talking in the piece about what -- people who are advocating gun controls sound like.

to the people who oppose them and you, you talk about -- that it feels to them like these are not just modest proposals to regulate guns. but it is viewed as an assault on their way of life. how do you deal with that rhetorically. >> it is difficult. the gun has become a symbol of a way of life. for gun advocates in many cases a proxy for geography, attitude, even party. preferences. it has become not about the gun. we are talking gun control or gun policy. a lot of liberals hear it as debate over policy. a lot of gun advocates hear it as a debate over life. the only way to combat that. another way of life. sees the gun as something that shouldn't be worshipped. that says there should be a freedom from guns. especially the kind, that, that are used in a lot of mass killings. that we need to make, be making the argument there is another way of life. another cultural argument.

that is as important. i would argue more important. >> david, you make the point that it took very few voters, to win on this turn out. that seems to be what the nra knew ahead of time. on recall election like this, all they have to do is provoke their turnout. it will be low. get their people out they win it. >> absolutely. very low turn out elections. they were marred by controversy over the voting process. the nra knew for relatively cheap, could try to send a message. again it banked on the idea that anti-gun control voters are more intensely motivated than pro gun control voters. especially in low turnout elections. the only way to win on gun control when you pass legislation, is to make that kind of cultural argument. it may take a few years for the democrats to make that argument successfully. that is their only choice. unless they make the arguments, the anti-gun control argument is going to continue to be made on cultural terms. and continue to be made no matter what the democrats and