government will run out of cash, and it's also the day thathe next phase of obamacare will tie in and one is smith republicans right down the middle. some see defeating the president's legislation is top priority. others fear the gop will be blamed if the government shutdown happens. >> we will continue to do everything we can to repeal the president's failed healthcare law. >> we can't let the government shut down. -- >> this as a new abc-washington post poll says the majority of americans can't -- when asked who they trust more, they are split nearly right down the middle between the president and republicans. president obama ripped into the latest republican play yesterday. take a listen. >> had never seen in the history of the united states the debt ceiling or the threat of not raising the debt ceiling being

used to extort a president or a governing party and trying to force issues that had nothing to do with the budget and had nothing to do with the debt. >> there you have it. let's go straight to new york democratic congressman charles rangel and he sits on the house, ways and means committee. representative, always good to see you here. as you well know, you've been around those halls a long time here and one might ask why are folks on your side of the aisle now causing what's happening right now basically crazy town. >> because it just doesn't make any sense. i -- we are not going close on the government. i wish i was a fly on the wall when these republicans get together, but what they have done because of their madness in opposition to national health is to put this as a poison pill as to whether or not the president

of the united states can tell the international community who bought our debt that we're going to pay them. the other thing is that in a couple of weeks the government, if it doesn't get an extension of the present budget because we haven't come up with a budget, then everything closes down. so what the republicans are saying now that they're going to put the repeal then. please believe me. they cannot constitutionally, legally repeal the affordable care act. they know it. we know it. the american people know it so at some point they have to slow down this train because it's nothing but a train wreck and they are driving the engine. >> it won't make it past the senate and it won't make it past the president's desk is what you're saying. one thing they're asking for. according to "the new york times" is a list of things that

they wish the house would do. this is the republican wish list, raise the borrowing limit, delay obamacare by one year and increasing debt ceiling for one year and expedite excel pipeline and federal tax code timeline as well. as you know, the majority of americans in a recent nbc news-wall street journal poll don't approve of the aca and so when you look at that wish list from the republicans what do you say to representatives like marshall blackburn who we'll be talking to later on in the show, who say we'll just delay this and try to drive more support from the americans to see if we should continue with the aca? >> well, some of mr. blackburn's people want to strip the interpretation of the constitution and the separation of house and make it clear about what the courts are supposed to be doing and so therefore, when we deal with the legislative part, believe me, you can look as long as you want and there's

nothing in there where legislative wish lists become the law. i mean, it's just not there. so what you're telling the president is we can't get these things passed, but if we can get you to change all of the philosophical reasons why people reelected you and get you to accept what we could not sell to the american people then we'll be responsible, but having a wish list is like a going to a presidential press conference and sneaking something over to the president saying this is what i really want. and it's not constitutional and it's not legal and i know it's not moral. >> congressman. while we're talking about things, republicans would like to defund, the house is set to vote later today on a measure that would slap funding for food stamps by nearly $40 million. the number of people on food stamps exploding since the

financial collapse. when you look at this, is this just more evidence that lawmakers are out of touch with reality here? >> no. they believe that just saying that you're cutting dramatically, the federal budget through sequestration and any other means that you're saving money. this doesn't make sense whether you're talking about a business or a household. if you cutoff health care people are going to sick and you'll pay for it anyway, if you cut off food, nutritious food kids are going to go to school hungry and they're not going to be able to comprehend their studies and if you talk about people that are working and at the same time they're still below the poverty line and they need subsidies and they need food stamps and you cut that out they may have to quit and go on welfare and it's going to cost money. i'm forgetting all of the spiritual reasons why we should

help the poor, the sick and the disabled and the vulnerable. i'm just talking about sound, accounting practices dictate that when you supplement working people's food allowance through food stamps it makes a lot of dollars and it makes a lot of sense. >> congressman, i want to move on to something that you've been working on for some time here. the navy yard shooting reing nieth the debate that you've seen over gun control, mayors are holding a news conference on capitol hill today this morning. the newtown alliance is lobbying for lawmakers as well and senatorses begich are resurrecting a bill raising the issue and you're trying to get support for a bill that you sponsored to enforce existing gun laws. can you blame americans who look at this and say here we go again, though we have some energy at the moment. this is not going to go anywhere? >> well, it used to be

somewhere. it used to be the law. the congress has never been completely ignorant of the fact that responsible people have to show that they're responsible if they're going to have a firearm. what has happened over the years before these massacres and before kids were able to get guns is that they already pulled their teeth out of the alcohol, firearm and tobacco agency. we've got 300 million guns in the united states of america, but we only have 2500 agentses. so we know that while we need a national and international concern about changing the whole thing, what about going back to what we used to have before the national rifle association said the little we did have was too much for them to digest? the fact that they prohibited from using electronic records and they prohibited from centralizing offenses and they

prohibited from reporting and investigating suspicious gun holders and really what they've done is they've demoralized the aft. so this is not something to stop these things when we have massacres. this says that there's no reason for this great nation to have 300 million gun, a gun for almost every citizen here and that there was responsible thinking before people awakened and found out there's mass murders. there's 30 murders every day under existing law and we can only -- we can change that without having a massive uproar in terms of checking the background. this used to be the responsibility of the aft and now they're prohibited from even transferring nothing from the fbi or other agencies that have investigated power. all i'm saying is we've got a

lot of fixing to do in existing law before we go national. >> congressman charlie rangel, thank you for your time today. >> thank you for having me. back at the washington nafty yard, the inspiration reopened except for the building where the shootings took place and we now know more about the gun aaron alexis used in the rampage. authorities say he scratched two phrases into the shotgun. one said, quote, better off this way. the other etching, my elf weapon. officials don't know what either of those two mean. also to the investigation after complaining to the police in rhode island that he was hearing voices, alexis went for treatment at a va hospital, but only said he was having trouble sleeping. nothing about hearing voices. nbc news national investigative correspondent michael isikoff is joining us now. michael, you have a new, exclusive report about the doj probe into the contractors who the government use to vet people for security clearances there. tell us about that.

>> exactly. in addition to the defense department review announced by secretary hagel, the just is doing its own investigation. they're going to be looking at the alexis clearance process, how did he get that security clearance? how did he obtain it? who did the background check? and this is part of a much broader investigation done by the u.s. attorney's office in washington into these background checks. they have found multiple examples of fraudulent, fabricated background checks being presented to the office of personnel management and a let of this is done by outside contractors in which they are pressured to churn out reports and the volume is so staggering there have been something like 19 -- who submitted to have done ridiculouses that were never checked and so this is part of a much broader probe that will get

attention in the coming weeks. >> thank you so much for that, nbc news national investigative correspondent michael isikoff. we appreciate it. senator john mccain is blasting back at putin. what's his goal here? an american minister, not only backing, but taking credit for russia's lgbt ban. his role in what's becoming a global culture war and here's today's big question. shut down showdown. smart move by the gop or political suicide? weigh in on twitter or on facebook. wisest kid in the whole world? how can i be a more fun mom? hmmm. can you dance? ♪ bum ba bum ba bum ♪ bum ba bum ba bum no. no? can you make campbell's chicken noodle soup? yes! [ wisest kid ] every can has 32 feet of slurpable noodles. now that's fun. mom, you're awesome. oh yeah!

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this developing news coming from russia where president vladimir putin just said he could not be 100% certain the

syrian government would comply with the plan to destroy its chemical weapons. however, putin does say he cease reason to be hopeful. that just in to msnbc in the next hour. the national assembly convening here in new york in a week and the syria issue will be front and center, no doubt and writing today on a russian news website arizona senator john mccain slamming vladimir putin for the president's op-ed in "the new york times." >> quote, he is not enhancing rush's's reputation, he has made her a friend to the tyrants and untrusted by nations that seek to build a safer and more peaceful and prosperous world, end quote. >> ambassador, thanks for joining us today. mccain also writing here that he is and he's alluding here, of course, to the syrian leader, quote, more pro-russian -- is alluding to himself that he is more pro-russian than the putin government itself.

what's the practicality of this op-ed that was written by the senator and published in this russian news website? >> isn't president obama lucky that he has john mccain saying all of the things that the president of the united states could not say in response to mr. putin's new york times op-ed which is, mr. putin, if you think that we're buying what you say to us about our country, let me tell you what we in america feel about your role of your country. it was so well written and so completely accurate portrayal of the human rights violations that russians have to live in day in and day out under putin's role. >> if the president would have written it would it have been different some. >> it would have been so diplomatic and not so much in your face. let's understand, mr. mccain has the license to write that. >> let's move over to what we started this block with and that is syria.

former democratic congressman and new fox news analyst dennis kucinich sat down for a one-on-one interview with bashar al assad. >> do you have chemical weapons or don't you? >> when we joined the treaty last week it means that we haven't and we said that. so it's not there anymore. >> so we've got that. we also have the news of vladimir putin saying he's not sure whether the syrian government will follow through 100%. what do you make of that? >> look. this will be a situation of making sure that the decay of the commitment that the president and secretary kerry obtained from the russians and from the syrians is not slow walked to a point where the entire pressure to get rid of those chemical weapons evaporates and i know it and you know it that in the laws of the jungle of the united nations security council and the need to get the inspectors on the ground in a conflict where a civil war will make it very difficult.

this will be an extraordinarily important task. the president and the secretary of state want to persevere and they'll have to hold the feet to the fire of mr. putin and mr. assad and they have to maintain the threat of force over them. if that threat of forces, vap rates, you can be one thing guaranteed, richard. there is not one way that mr. arc sad will give up the chemical weapons. i want to move over to wmd of a different sort. ann curry sits down with iran's new president. take a listen to part of that. >> can you say that iran will not build a nuclear weapon under any circumstances whatsoever? >> translator: the answer to this question is quite obvious. we have time and again said that under no circumstances would we seek any weapons of mass destruction including nuclear weapons nor would we ever. >> so rouhani will be coming to new york for the unga, the unga, as they call it, and he is now

doing this interview. a charm offensive? what do youic ma of this interview? >> i am all in favor of seeing whether or not an accommodation can be reached with the united states and its allies in iran. i don't want to see a conflict. i don't think the israelis would like to see a conflict, but let's understand, a charm offensive can have an atomic energy program that suggests that iran is engaged in every effort to construct a nuclear weapon. if they come clean and say we're going to stop and we're going to open up all our facilities and we'll abide by our responsibilities under a nonproliferation treaty. >> you and i both know this is a theocracy, this is run by the ayatollah and that remains atop the pyramid of power. former white house middle east adviser mark ginsburg for stopping by this morning. former first daughter caroline kennedy testified. she's before the senate foreign relations committee at her

confirmation hearing and you can see her entering earlier. president obama nom named kennedy to be the next ambassador to japan. a texas appeals court has overturned the money laundering leader delay, for his alleged role in the scheme to influence elections in texas and delay has been free since his conviction pending his appeal. um... where's mrs. davis?

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the company is prepping for deep staffing cuts and up to 40% of the workforce by the end of the year. >> a north carolina police officer is out on bail after being charged with involuntary manslaughter for the fatal shooting of an unarmed man. now an outraged family and local civil rights groups are calling for stiffer charges. 24-year-old jonathan farrell got into a serious car accident late friday night in the suburbs of charlotte. the former football player at florida a & m university, went to a nearby house and was looking for help. the homeowner answered the door, but was afraid farrell was trying to break into her home. she called 911. >> 911. hello? >> i need help. >> where are you at? >> um, yes. just a moment. there's a guy breaking in my front door. he's yelling it turn off the alarm. >> when police arrived they say farrell ran toward them. in the end they found out he was

unarmed. police say one officer tried to tase farrell before the police officer fired 12 shots. the police department and district attorney have not decided who weather to do that as of yet. his lawyer says his actions that night were justified. let's go to the president of the charlotte naacp chapter. reverend, thanks for being here. you know the charlotte naacp chapter, the one that you run there, you're calling for murder charges here. why? >> yes, sir because of the fact that even the police chief has acknowledged that mr. carrick used excessive force and it was very unnecessary for him to shoot the victim at all and it appears based upon the findings from the video that not only did he shoot him multiple times, but there were pauses between the shots. that tells me that he shot him, he looked at him, shot him again

and then looked at him and shot him some more. that to me seems like it was a fit of hatred, a fit of rage and he did that deliberately. he could have stopped shooting once the man was on the ground. >> you know, let's take a city that you know broadly, a city that you know well. according to the associated press, farrell was the sixth person to be shot by officers since the start of 2012. four of them have died. no police officers were charged in these. when you look at the data and the information available. is there a larger problem at the police department there? >> oh, yes, was there a larger problem and there were complaints with police abuse and the way police interact with the public and let me give you more history about charlotte in 1993 a young lady was killed after she ran into a phone pole. she was shot point-blank by a charlotte police officer who was not charged. in 1996, a young man made a wrong turn and he was shot in

the back by a police officer and was not charged and several months later a young lady was in a car with a man who decided to try to go around a police check. she -- her head was blown off. none of these officers have ever been charged. in charlotte, we have a problem with policemen killing people and never been charged. i commend the chief of police monroe for making a decision, a very expeditious decision to charge this officer based on the evidence because it is obvious there was no reason to kill this man and to me, it was obvious that he did it out of hatred and then the rampage. >> reverend, according to a police department spokesman, officer kerik has been on the police force for three years. in 2010, he was hired as an animal control officer in the city. a year later he became a police recruit and just last year, he received a one-day suspension though we have not heard from a

poli police department spokesman. couldn't this just be inexperience? >> no because police are trained to deal with stressful situations. it if he was in the midst of the hail of gunfight. if the suspect had been shooting at him i can understand him shooting so many times, but this victim was unarmed. it's obviously that he was disoriented. they knew that he'd had a wreck. they saw the vehicle and when he was coming towards him he was unarmed. the two other officers did not. pull their weapons so it was obviously a situation where a gun needed to be used. he shot, he paused and he shot again and to me that is a deliberate killing and if you hit him the first few folly, and the man dropped to the ground then they could have restrained the officer -- i mean, the gentleman without bringing about more damage. so the intent seems to be very deliberate and to me that was murder. >> charlotte naacp reverend

nantambu. thank you. here's the stories we're following for you. the teenage georgia girl is safe in the arms of her family after surviving a kidnapping ordeal. yvani perez and looking for two more suspects. court records show that one of the suspects taken into custody and perez's mother were both arrested in a 500-pound marijuana drug bust last year. facebook is apologizing to the family of ratea parsons after her -- facebook is calling it a gross violation of its policies and has taken down those ads. the company behind the ads have been shut down as well. the 17-year-old committed suicide in april after being bullied because of separate pictures that appeared online showing her allegedly being raped by four boys. two of the boys are in court today to answer to those charges. heavy rains from hurricane manuel and ingrid in acapulco,

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fight in the senate. republican congressman sean duffy tweeting this. house agrees to send c.r. to senate that defunds obamacare. senator ted cruz and senator mike leigh refuse to fight. wave righting that ask sur renner. >> cruz tracked back urging his party to stay united. take a listen. >> today is a remarkable day of unity and today is a victory for the speaker and indeed, i would make a plea today to the 46 senate republicans that today is a day for party unity that every senate republican should stand with republicans in the house, should stand with conservatives and should stand with the american people. >> live straight to capitol hill, speaker john boehner in his weekly address. >> let me be very clear. wen republicans have no interest in defaulting on our debt. none. we just want to find a way to pay it off and that's why the house will act on a plan that

will reduce the deficit and includes pro-growth economic reforms including a delay of the president's health care law. there's a common sense principle here. you should work to reduce the deficit and grow the economy at the same time. the president's remarks not withstanding, you know, the white house may not get it, but frankly the american people get it. every major deficit reduction plan over the last 30 years has been tied to the debt limit. in 1985 president reagan signed the hollings deficit reduction bill which included an increase in the debt limit. when president bush reached a budget deal with democrats here in the congress in 1990, it included an increase in the debt limit. president clinton reached two similar agreements both tied to the debt limit and i would remind president obama himself that in the december of 2011 there was a major deficit

reduction bill enacted with an increase in the debt limit. this time it should be no different. in fact, i think it's more important than ever. a report this week from the congressional budget office makes it clear that our debt is set to grow rapidly in the coming years if we take no action. now that's why it's so troubling that the president's decided to just sit out this debate. he says he won't engage. you know, most presidents refer to their bipartisan efforts to reduce the deficit as achievements. the president sees this, quote, unquote, as extortion. so while the president is happy to negotiate with vladimir putin, he won't engage with the congress on a plan that deals with the deficits that threaten our economy. let me just be clear here. a debt limit increase without any reforms to lower our deficit just isn't going to cut it. not when under this president

the united states has racked up $6 trillion worth of additional debt. and you can see it it right here. it's when the president took office and look what's happened over these years and look what happened out into the future if we don't do something about our spending problem. >> so a bill that does nothing to deal with the deficit is really telling the world that we're not willing to deal with our spending problem. the president needs to recognize that we have a shared responsibility to govern. he can try to stay on the sidelines, but here in the house we're going to lead. >> mr. speaker, yesterday -- [ inaudible question ] are you convinced now that they're up for the battle next door? >> i'm not going to speculate on

what the senate's going to do or not do, but the fight here has been won. the fight over there is just beginning. >> it's not really speculation. they're said the fight's over here and they hope the the house republicans can stay strong. what's your reaction to that? >> i expect my senate colleagues to do everything they can to defund this law just like the house is going do. >> mr. speaker, if they don't do that and they send it back to you -- >> i'm not going get to the ifs and buts and all of that nonsense. >> if they allow you to go through the boat would you need the cooperation of leader pelosi and is it incumbent on -- >> i'm not going to speculate on what the senate will or will not do. >> mr. speaker, do you expect to have the vote next week and what are the must haves? >> we're going to have a conversation with our colleagues tomorrow morning about how we will proceed on the debt limit and after that conversation

we'll probably have more to say. >> the chamber of commerce -- senate republicans are saying almost universally don't do this. this is a losing strategy for republicans. >> to do what? to do what? to do what? >> to tie the government to defunding obamacare. >> listen, obamacare is driving up the cost of health care. it's destroying millions of american jobs and it is a train wreck. it has to go, and we've done everything humanly possible in the last two and a half years to make our point and we're going continue to make our point. >> senate republicans say they agree with that. they just don't think this is the vehicle and they think republicans will get blamed. >> guess what? we're having a fight over here and we'll have a fight over here and it's time for them to pick up the mantle and get the job done. >> nbc news interview with the president of iran said they would not use their nuclear program for nuclear weapons

ever. the question of the holocaust and the denial saying he's a politician and not a historian. do you have comments to the president of iran. >> actions speak louder than word, and i think it's time for the iranians to take actions to show the world that they're not interested in producing nuclear weapons. >> how do you expect these negotiations on spoo. >> speaker john boehner's weekly address there discussing the issue that is heating up the hill right now and that is the question of defunding obama care to fund the government. that's the question out there and joining us to discuss that from capitol hill is marcia blackburn of tennessee. thanks for being with with us today. you saw the numbers that the speaker brought forward as he was referencing the cbo and he was also saying if we're

appealing toing to fiscal conservatism, and you would actually increase the debt here by over 130 billion. how do those numbers come together? >> what you're got to realize is the cbo does not use a dynamic form of scoring and the other thing that you have to realize is that remember now, boomcare is a $63 billion program and after they passed the bill it was $1.4 trillion and the budget number they gave us this year to work with was $2.6 trillion and it is tripling in cost very, very quickly. so we know the cost of obamacare is going to continue to rise and if you were to put in free market provisions, repeal this law and get people back to work, let companies to run their insurance programs and with

their employees is a benefit program that they want to run it it that they'll accelerate jobs growth in the economy. so the speaker is right on this, and i think we all know that obamacare is too expensive to afford and that is why the majority of the american people want it off the books. >> congresswoman, that is the question of leadership of speaker boehner. i want to move to a tweet that came from fellow republican tim griffin of arkansas and he tweeted yesterday. so far rs are good at getting facebook likes and town halls not much else. >> is there something happening in the house? >> not at all. we are trying to spur our colleagues in the senate to help us to delay, defund, repeal, replace obamacare is what we want to do and it's what our con stitch wens want. what the american people want by an overwhelming majority. more than two-thirds of the

american people understand this, saying they'll make their health care worse, my goodness, you've even got the acl-cio. >> from the republican matter and what's been ridden and we'll go to kisten powers and it's a bit of a murder/swes ide. will ultimately that they guarantee the irrell volcanosy. >> they seem determined to take that down with them. >> nicole walsh echoed some of those thoughts today and take a listen at what she said on "morning joe." it is your job as a parent to hold the child in the scooter from running into traffic. i think cruz is responding to what is a genuine sentiment out there. however, when republicans run into the street despite the fact that there's a flashing red light they're going to get hit by the cars and killed.

so this is stupid politically. >> so it may be politically stupid for 2014 or is it really 2016 that this messaging is destroying the gop chances for 16 and for that matter the possibility of taking over the senate? oh, i think that the american people are so totally behind getting rid of this law any are and whether it is my legislation that would delay the implementation for hr 2809 and you heard the speaker reference that and in conjunction with looking at the debt ceiling or it is the efforts to defund it whether it's for a short period or longer period. what we have seen is the imposition of obamacare is driving up health insurance costs and it is driving down access to health care and it is costing jobs in this country and resetting the workweek from a 40-our workweek to a 30-our

workweek and all of these are bad for america and bad for our economy and that's why people are saying let's get rid of this. let's go back to look at sensible reforms and that is why my colleagues and i introduced an alternative to obama care so people can do a point by point and look at what we would offer in a patient-centered free market environment and what obama care does in a government-sent rick, government controlled environment. >> if we would delay it by one year, we would alleviate the problem to 1 million. we've got to go. thank you so much. representative marcia black burn. joy ann reid is knowledge inning editor for "the grillo".com and lee fong is a contributing writer. starting with you, what do you think about what she said right now? she seems to be very confident that speaker boehner looks not

to be a spokesperson or mouthpiece, but is still leading here? can you put into context how damaging and what is happening right now including the comments that have been coming from ted cruz? >> what's interesting here is who's driving this agenda? if you asked congresswoman blackburn and many of her colleagues why they're doing this, they're saying they're responding to the republican base and they point to americans with prosperity and the 60-plus association and the tea party express is calling for this defunding vote, but as it came out earlier this week virtually these votes are run by the coke brothers so it might be accurate that they're responding to their base and they're not referring to the american people and they're referring to two radical billionaires. >> i want to move over to you, joy, dick durbin spoke last hour on the shore and they did take a dig. >> i hope the united states doesn't go under cruise control

fl leing what we've seen from the house republican caucus. i hope that there will be reasonable, conserve it tiff republicans and they that is unacceptable to resolve, but not to damage our economy. >> if janet wants to send it back down to the house here. couldn't they have the art for a touchdown. first of all, number one, it has been four years since this law passed. literally, the republican party is stuck in 2009 in that same debate. you just heard congressman black burn wants to go back and fight health care reform and that's insane and now to ted cruz. ted cruz is running 1-800 commercials as if he's selling gadgets on tv. he is running a campaign to be

essentially a celebrity within the republican party and he's doing this for the benefit of people like the coke brothers, for those donors that he needs for 2016. i think what you're seeing right now in the fight between house republicans and senate republicans is the recognition that he essentially that's something that the that will be the step stone. this has nothing to do with policy because the pragmatic fact that anyone on capitol hill with a decent staff understands that you cannot and are not going defund or repeal the affordable care act. they have to understand that unless they want to fire all of their staff. this is jockeying for the position of the donors. >> lee, your take on this, one of your takes is that this is an attack on business, big business. the questions you ask is where are the political groups that troy to push back against radical conservatives? >> in the press conference you just showed, one reporter asked

speaker boehner about the u.s. chamber of commerce which tied funding for obama care to funding the government, but, you know, the question really is will they back up this bark with a bite? will they actually run advertisements? will they air ads in districts for house republicans who are holding the economy hostage or are are these self-appointed representatives of big business simply lap dogs. that's the question here. >> what is the fig leaf for the speaker? >> at this point, i'm not sure john boehner has one. john boehner is like a preschool teacher who can't control his class so they're he's letting the class eat play-doh and he can't do anything about it. i think lee hit on an important point here which is that the tradition arbiters of democratic politics like the u.s. chamber of commerce have themselves lost control of this party. john boehner long since lost

control of the house caucus and so he's got to keep placating these people even though they don't seem to grasp or don't want to grasp what they're going to do to the american economy. they don't care anymore. this is all about speaking to a very narrow group of donors, very radical, right-wing donors right wing donors like the koches. i don't think there's a fig leaf for boehner. if he wanted to regain respect for the caucus he would sit them down and explain this is suicidal politics for the party. if you don't get in line, i'm going to go over to nancy pelosi and get the votes and make sure the debt limit is increased without you. that would give him at least a fig leaf of having power and control. right now he looks like he's following rather than leading his caucus. >> that would be a headline for all three of us to watch certainly. thank you so much for your time today. >> thanks. >> you can find more from the

panel msnbc, follow the link to thomas's name. the injustice of mandatory minimum sentences is impossible to ignore when you hear the story of the victim. >> that was rand paul testifying before a hearing of the judiciary wednesday calling for what was once thought of as a liberal idea, reform to sentencing requirements that put drug offenders behind bars comparing them to jim crow laws. as a republican paul might seem to be unlikely for the mandatory minimums but the line between liberals and conservatives on the issue is spreading on both federal and state levels. here is ari melber on the latest edition of presumed guilty. >> our system is in too many ways broken. >> reporter: when eric holder

announced jail time, calling one of the most unjust of the time, republican senator rand paul said he welcomed the attorney general's move on a bipartisan issue. critics of the war on drugs were thrilled. it was a policy validation of america's most prominent libertarian. lynch at the cato institute called the new alliance political harmonizing. >> even if you acknowledge the law shouldn't be on the books, it's too harsh. liberals can agree with libertarians they need to be reduced quickly. >> reporter: worked behind the scenes, paul was a natural choice, introduced legislation with pat leahy to expand safety vofls to reduce mandatory minimums. paul took his campaign of overincarceration to howard, a historically black college. >> the idea that one size fits all, federal sentences should

have no depression. our federal mandatory minimum sentences are heavy-handed and arbitrary. >> reporter: does not represent gop but signs a new thinking spreading. jacob writes for "reason" magazine. >> texas, a tough on crime state, we've started to see sentencing reform where there's alliance between progressives and conservatives both of whom agree this is a waste of money and not right. >> reporter: in the past year alabama, tennessee, georgia have each reduced harsh sentencing and each are republican-run legislatures. conservative states validating a liberal critique, laws tough on criminals are often just tough on the poor and racial minorities. >> first of all send people away to prison who don't belong there. it's a waste of criminal justice resources, if these people don't pose a threat to the general public. secondly, it's unjust. this is a point that progressives have made for a long time and conservatives have

come around to that point of view. >> it may surprise some the backlash includes southern republicans. the question for congress is whether holder can find more allies like paul. >> joining us, ari, one of the interesting things rand paul brought up there, jim crow laws, ce. how significant is that? >> very significant. libertarians have focused on the ideas these laws are bad because of the high cost and personal liberty. endorsing the idea that they are also systemically racially unfair really brings in liberal critique. >> what's the likelihood it gets more support. will it ever pass? >> i think it could. we are looking at a tremendous shift from 1968 when president nixon ran on law and order to reagan era, first war on drug sentences come in. they passed the senate with only two dissenting votes. we're going from a strong bipartisan support for incarceration as a solution to everything including nonviolent offenses to liberals leading the

charge, libertarians coming in. that's pressure on both sides of the spectrum. i don't think in this congress, to be honest, but in the coming years you'll see that pressure build. a lot of politicians say we don't want to be behind something that is so unfair, so racially disparate in its impact and so expensive at a time where as you were reporting just this hour both parties talking about how to save costs. you save a lot of costs if you don't use prison as the only solution to nonviolent offenses. >> interesting piece. thank you. you can read the longer analysis online, tv.msnbc.com/guilty. more on the cycle. stick around for that. first that wraps things up for us. alex wagner is next. what as a result? >> we have a lot of ted cruz for our senator. senator cruz and self-described

wacko bird is leading the charge to defund obama care and his party over the cliff. we'll discuss the latest apocalyptic scenarios. plus new york attorney general eric sneiderman joins us for mental health and safety. sister simone campbell joins me to talk hunger as the house prepares to cut funding for food stamps. all that when "now" starts right after this. s, coughs ] i've got a big date, but my sinuses are acting up. it's time for advil cold and sinus. [ male announcer ] truth is that won't relieve all your symptoms. new alka seltzer plus-d relieves more sinus symptoms than any other behind the counter liquid gel. oh, what a relief it is.

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