gun violence, mental health oblems from the navy yard shootings to chicago, it must stop. i preached a 4-year-old boy's funeral last year. 3-year-old kid in the hospital tonight. it needs to stop. and we all need to come together across our differences and stop it. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. diving into trouble. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. dead beat. a person who tries to evade paying debts. that's the college world diction definition. the question now before the u.s. congress is whether america itself decides to be a dead beat

country. does the united states of america wish to state now on the record it will no longer accept responsibility for paying the military's salaries or the service people? will not pay the cost of housing and treating disabled veterans. will we let the word go forth that this country will not pay its bills, will not make good on the commitments to which it has legally bound itself. is the wealthiest land in the world ready to turn itself into a dead beat? worst yet get itself branded on such on world markets. luke messer is a republican from indiana and congressman fattah is a democrat. let's start with speaker john boehner. they put on a show after a continuing resolution that would kill obama care in its crib. it's a bill they know has no chance of becoming law and every chance of shutting down the u.s. government. >> the american people don't want the government shut down. and they don't want obama care.

the house has listened to the american people. now it's time for the united states senate to listen to them as well. thank you. >> there's also high drama on the house floor as democrats pleaded with republicans to abandon their kamikaze mission, they call it, to defund the affordable care act. >> what is brought to the floor today is without a doubt -- without a doubt a measure designed to shut down government. it could have no other intent. its purpose is clear. >> it is a blatant act of hostage taking. the republican cr also lays the groundwork for a default on our debt. an unthinkable act. >> and just hours later president obama himself delivered a fiery campaign-style speech out in kansas city taking aim at republicans in congress.

>> we fail to includes the debt limit, we would send our economy into a tail spin. that's a quote, what i just said. you know who said it? the republican speaker of the house john boehner. you don't have to threat ton blow the whole thing up if you don't get your way. if they would act with the common decency and purpose you do every day the economy would be stronger not just five or ten years from now but 20 or 30 or 50 years from now. and as long as i'm president, that's what i'm going to focus on. >> you heard the president mention this falls on the shoulders of john boehner. he managed to call to the far right of the caucus. the senate is going to send it back to him without the kill obama care language in it now. if ted cruz holds good on his promise to do quote, everything

necessary and anything possible to defund obama care next week, he could drag out the process to the 29th of september. that could leave just a day before a government shutdown. congressman, let me ask you about this word dead beat. do you accept my definition? someone who won't pay their bills. >> chris, are you talking to me here? >> yes, you. congressman messer. >> yes, i think it's important to pay your bills. >> why don't you? >> listen. we passed a bill today that will fund government and would protect the american people from obama care. the people that are talking about shutting down government are you, the president -- >> okay. let's get straight. >> and nancy pelosi. >> let's get the precedent here. the government has to pay its bills. you have a continuing resolution because you haven't passed the appropriations because among other reasons ted cruz has insisted the two should never meet in conference this year. there never was a chance to set

an adequate set of appropriations bills. that's a fact on the record, sir. that's not an argument. my question to you is list all the programs that you've tried to kill in a continuing resolution on budget deadline. give me all the other ones besides obama care. congress has ever tried to kill using the continuing resolution. list them for me. >> yeah. i mean -- >> no. listen to me. what time in history in this country has the congress tried to kill a bill that's been signed passed by the congress in both houses, legally signed into law by the president, then killed by continuing resolution. you act like this is a normal thing, to hold hostages. >> chris, you have a president who will negotiate with vladimir putin, but won't negotiate with the house republicans. >> you can give the speeches. i can only ask a question. >> and we have both the cr and the continuing resolution to solve here. you know that many of the provisions of obama care are not

popular even among democrats. the lcio came out against many provisions yesterday. the president's support on this bill is crumbling. this is why we see all the vitriol. >> let me ask you, is the affordable care act a law of the land? >> what is the law of the land that was -- >> is it a law of the land? >> yeah. it was orchestrated to be delayed in its implementation for three years. the signup for it starts in a few days and obviously becomes effective in january. >> your position is the united states government cannot pay its bills unless you kill the affordable care act. that's your deal. >> my position is that we should fund government and protect the american people from obama care. >> how's that different from what i just said? okay. let's go to congressman fattah of philadelphia. i think the congressman in his own way said the deal here is and i think the way the american people understand it that republicans are basically saying unless you can kill obama care

as it's called now, by october 1st there will be no government by october 1st. that's the deal. >> two things to make clear. one is the president of the united states barack obama has never spent $1 or added one dollar to the debt that the congress did not direct he spend through an appropriation bill. so the question now is are we going to pay our bills? this is not debt run up by the president. this is debt authorized by the congress that we need to pay and need to do it before we run up to our credit limit. two is you don't pass anything in our government. you learn this in high school and middle school if you go to a good one, that you have to pass something out of the house and the senate and the president has to sign it for it to be law. republicans have killed obama care 40-plus times. it's not dead. which is why they are going through this last bit of activity here because on october 1, americans are going to learn something which is that for many

cases you're going to be able to get a quality health insurance program with a private company that's going to protect you and your family. and the republicans as they fought against social security and medicare, as they seem to be against things that would help the public, the only thing they seem to be for is tax cuts for the rich. they're going through this but the president is not going to equivocate one inch, not going to compromise one iota. we're going to have this fight if we need to have it. the question is how much are we going to hurt our own economy for the republicans to learn they lost the last election? >> this is going to be a heated argument not just here, by the way. let me ask you how it's going to go next week. the senate is expected because it's a democrat-led senate that it's not going to eliminate obama care in the resolution. that will come back to the house of representatives. hopefully in time for the leadership to do something for speaker boehner. what do you want speaker boehner

to do if he's confronted with the fact the senate did not go along with the house. what do you want him to do? >> it's hard to deal with the hypotheticals. we want to rid the american people of obama care. we have two major issues before us. both the continuing resolution and the debt limit as well. gives us multiple opportunities to bring bring this policy forward. the president has already signed seven bills that have changed obama care, he's delayed the employee mandate, so it can be delayed. >> let me ask your bargaining position. speaker boehner is to the fact he may not hold hostage to obama care. he may say we'll put together a list of cuts or throw in keystone pipeline or other things that the republican majority in the house would like to see done. fair enough, by the way. that's traditional horse trading. this time around you take another shot at it during their fight over the debt ceiling in a

couple weeks. this time around get some spending cuts and perhaps the keystone. would you go along with a deal like that next week? >> potentially, but it requires the president to come to the table and agree -- >> i understand. but are you waiting at the table? >> sure. we have big issues as a country. we have a failing economy. we have a budget out of control. and we have these challenges of obama care. we need to make major progress on all three. >> it's not a take it or leave it on killing obama care. >> we have two opportunities there to do it. and i think frankly that the president when the american people make it clear in the next several weeks, he will step forward and at least delay this law. listen, this president's known for drawing lines he doesn't keep. i think there's a potentially -- >> do you ever gamble, sir? privately? >> i really don't -- no, i really don't like gambling. >> go to the track or anything? because i'm available if you want to call me afterwards. i'm ready. the president's not going to give up on obama care.

congressman fattah, if toupt give bookie advice here. what is the chance the president of the united states will give up the one sure thing that will get him in the history books? obama care? your thoughts. >> there's not a person in the country except for people who are drinking this tea party tea who believes that the president is going to walk away from obama care. it's not going to happen. 5.5 million people in my state with pre-existing conditions are going to get insurance and get it not at an increased rate come october 1. they're not going to have any lifetime limits anymore or annual limits. i mean, this is a very important program. and only thing i can say is that republicans have been on the wrong side of history. there's been team that wants more education, more health care, more jobs. and there's another team that wants to beat up on the president. we saw this with clinton. we see it with obama. anything the president's for, they're against. >> i think that's true with mr.

messer. but let me ask you this. if you look back at the history and we all know the history, social security passed under roosevelt. it was opposed by the republican party. and since then the republican party has accepted the social contract including for retirees. and medicare was fought over and republicans opposed that. now they know one of the most popular programs ever created is medicare. is it your biggest fear that down the road once people get used to the affordable care act they're going to like it. isn't that your biggest fear? because if they're not going to like it, you guys win the argument. but if they like it, you lose again. three strikes, you're out. social security, medicare, and health care. you've been wrong three times in a row. your thoughts. >> i'm not aware of any part with social security and medicare where you had these transition problems you've had with obama care. contrary to the president's promises, rates are going up.

contrary to the president's promises, folks are losing the insurance plans they're on. contrary to some promises, people are losing their jobs and losing hours. this reaction is to that. to me the interesting part of the debate here is you're talking about the president's legacy. we're talking about real people's problems. >> i understand. >> that's what we're trying to step forward from. >> you could win this time or win later if people don't like the program. last word from chaka fattah. >> medicare didn't have any drug prescription programs. the democrats didn't think that was a good way to go. but we accepted it. and we didn't try to get rid of it. what we did was eliminate the doughnut hole so seniors got all of the help they needed. that's what republicans should do now. if they think there's a problem with the affordable care act, help us amend it. but we're never going to see this ended. we're not going back to a

country where folks don't have insurance for their families. >> thank you much for coming on friday late in the afternoon. congressman luke messer of indiana and congressman chaka fattah. ted cruz, he's ignited a civil war in the gop. wait until you hear the arguments and a lot of republicans are saying what shut doup could do for the democrats and can't do for them. this is fascinating. this is interesting politics. even exciting. you know what else the democrats could win back? the white house. and right now the candidate, face it, terrifies the republicans most is doing what's needed most to make a run. without saying she's running, hillary clinton may already be running. and pope francis, he says she church has grown obsessed with gay marriage and abortion. what do we make of this? and i answer your twitter questions. it's always fun to see if i'm on my game. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

it's getting tight in virginia. new race down there. new numbers. look at this. let's check the "hardball" score board in virginia. here it is. according to a new poll, mccaul live and cuccinelli. a lot of undecideds there. a fifth of the voters are undecided still. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball" where anger against ted cruz. of a shout doub to defund the ffrd able care act. cruz this week essentially admitted there was little hope in the u.s. senate itself to pass a defunding bill. instead he tossed the hot potato

to the republicans in the house that weren't too happy with that. here's peter king today calling cruz a fraud. strong words. let's watch. >> it's a step in the right direction. hopefully it will be a major step in letting people know that ted cruz is a fraud and he'll no longer have influence in the republican party. this is a signal we have to take more realistic and practical approaches. we can't be going off on these false moves cruz wants to go on. it requires real conservative solutions, not headline hunting schemes. >> republicans were equally annoyed. let's watch. >> you should have been on the floor back in the cloak room, there was -- i mean, there was so much anger, so much frustration. because again, we've been abused by these guys for so long. what i see happening now is people coming out and calling them out for the hypocrisy of

these big tough conservatives who know how to fight but will never get in the ring. they keep trying to put this fight in the house. they can hold the senate and have this fight as long as they want. but they're not willing to do it. >> ted cruz and others like him have been writing checks with their mouth that their votes can't cash. and i think now they have to put up or shut up. for me personally, i think that's one message that i want to send back to the senate that they can't continue this political rhetoric if they don't plan on backing it up. >> why are so many republicans from moderate areas like staten island and wisconsin very hostile towards the senator from texas? congressman, i've never seen anybody in the street calling another member of their caucus is fraud. strong stuff there from some republicans in the northeast and the midwest. is this a texas thing, cruz,

that he's that for out? what's your view of where he fits in the party? >> they better not mess with texas. nobody thought ted cruz could win election in the senate against david dewhurst, the governor who was so far ahead of him in the polls early on, thought to be unbeatable. cruz came through and pulled it off in one election to the u.s. senate. ted asked for the opportunity to take this up in the senate. we gave it to him. i wouldn't be surprised if he delivered. >> how does he deliver? okay. let's get the reality here. i know you like him. you're a loyal texan from the lone star state and all that. but is it the lone star state on this one? it takes 41 votes to basically stop a measure from getting to a vote. does he have 41 votes to do that? not just a vote for obama care elimination, whatever that's about. but to actually stop this continuing resolution from financing the government? can he do that? >> listen. we picked up two democrat votes in the house of representatives today. we can hope ted can get a few over in the senate. listen.

the american people have turned on obama care. we've got senators up for election on the democrat side who would be well to listen to their constituents and the american people. >> why do you think so many republicans up in the northeast and midwest are calling this guy no good? these are pretty personal statements like those from peter king. >> a couple of them might be running against him for president too. >> let me ask you about the president. is he running for president? i say he is. would you agree? >> i think he would. >> i believe he's eligible. you have an american where you're born, i believe you're a natural born citizen. do you agree with that? >> listen. we've had this discussion about president obama, so -- >> i'm talking about cruz. stick to the point, congressman. cruz. >> he's as eligible as obama is. >> well, what does that mean? >> obama is president, ted cruz can be president. >> this is serious business, congressman. you're shuffling about this. is he eligible to be president or not? you've been touting the guy.

explain. is he eligible? you brought it up, i didn't. >> i think he's eligible. i'm giving you a yes answer. >> if obama was born overseas to an american mother even if the crazy theory of donald trump is true, he'd still be president if that was true. >> we're talking about ted cruz. >> can't you move an inch mentally. >> i'm telling you president obama is the president. >> no, no. you brought this up. >> what better -- >> is he -- >> yes. >> was he legitimately like the president of the united states? >> i wasn't in congress to determine that. that was determined before i got here. >> when does congress get to determine whether a president meets the standards? a vote in congress between now and 2016 to know if ted cruz is legitimate? >> when the congress accepts the electoral votes.

can. >> and what would you do? >> i'm not afraid at all. >> is he a natural born citizen? >> i said ted cruz is -- >> this is the problem with your party. it's gotten so far into the wacko bird. what's wrong with saying barack obama is eligible to be president. >> i said he is president. we're nitpicking over words. >> once again i'm trying to make -- he got into office, but he didn't do it legitimately. did he? just say he did? >> say what? he's president. he's president. what more is there to say? >> repeat after me. he was legitimately like the president. >> president obama was elected president. >> legitimately. >> the people elected him. yes. >> legitimately. so he was a natural born citizen. >> i didn't make that judgment

when he was brought in. >> everybody watching knows what you're doing. you're dodging. let me ask you about the united states government. what's your view about the continued resolution funding the government beyond october 1st. you want that to happen or not? >> absolutely. we voted to fund everything but obama care. of course we want to keep funding the government. >> but obama care is law of the land. >> and we're congress. guess who gets the change the law of the land. congress. >> you're not changing it, you're simply defunding it. >> we are changing the law that grants the money to obama care. >> let me ask you the same question i put to the others -- >> the constitution gave us the power of the purse. we're exercising it. >> and that's right. the congress passed obama care. it was also passed by the senate. the president signed it. it's the law of the land. my question is list the other laws congress has vitiated, a

what other programs has congress killed. just once. >> we can do it. we have the power of the purse. just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done. i think the constitution is pretty clear that the house of representatives gets to decide where the money is spent. >> congressman, you're saying that and it's true by definition. but the request is don't come back and then say this isn't a fight you didn't start. don't say the president started this fight insisting obama care was funded. ted cruz started it and other -- >> i never said that. i'm against obama care. i want it to go away. i'm fighting for my stwe constituents. >> you're saying this is a fight for your people and this is a fight to take to the wall. >> we're going to run this through the senate. the senate is going to send the bill back to us and decide what to do with it then.

just the way the founding fathers intended it. >> what will you do? >> i'm tired of the back room deals in the white house. i'm tired of harry reid and john boehner going in a smoke filled room deciding what it's going to be. it's now time for the senate to speak. >> congratulations on being elected to the congress. my question to you, it comes with the office, who are you more loyal to? john boehner or ted cruz? >> i'm loyal to the people of the state of texas who elected me. i'm not loyal to any other politician. >> okay. thank you for coming on. blake farenthol. it was the kind of heated discussion which is going on in congress. i haven't called anybody a fraud, by the way. up next, it's your chance to play "hardball." i'm going to answer your twitter questions. i don't like that word, twitter. but it's serious questions anyway. this is "hardball," the place for politics. you want to see something cool? snapshot, from progressive. my insurance company told me not to talk to people like you. you always do what they tell you?

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segment. let's play "hardball" where you the audience get to turn the tables on me and ask me anything on twitter. so let's get started with a question from tim rogers of texarkana. he asks are we doomed to this gridlock forever because of gerrymandering in the states? it's so interesting. a lot of minorities and liberals live in big cities. they get 90% votes. a lot of votes of liberals don't count as much as they should. it's the way the geography works. add to that the gerrymandering that goes on. my state, in pennsylvania where i grew up, 100,000 more votes were cast for democratic candidates statewide than republicans. how many republican congressman? 13. how many democrats? five. even though the democrats got a number much higher than the republicans total votes, the rms come out ahead. that's what's gerrymandering.

the next is from kenneth hobes from shitek, wisconsin. he asks what political benefit is there for the gop to shut down the government and deny health care and stop feeding the poor? i think they're playing to their base. i think there are people in this about 20% who are really angry at obama, they don't like him, maybe even hate him. and they hate big government. they hate gun control. they hate it all. they're in an upset, angry mood. they are patriotic people, but they are really angry. and i think this kind of gainsmanship and brinkmanship plays to them. here's one from greenville, north carolina. he asks you love to talk about kennedy which is one of my favorite presidents. compare his actions to cuba to obama's on syria. there's great differences. of course jack kennedy was a war hero to start with and one of the great presidents in history, i believe. i think one of the reasons he's one of the great presidents, the

way he dealt with the fact we almost went to nuclear war against the soviets. what he saw in the last minute was neither side was going to give. those missiles were in place in cuba. he had to find a way to deal with the soviets and allow a chance for khrushchev to back off. he took some missiles already placed in turkey and said okay, secretly to khrushchev, you'll need this to take to your generals. tell them if i promise to pull them out secretly, you can pull the missiles out of cuba. at a certain point you have to give the other side a chance to back away or you're go i think to have war. i think in this case putin, we'll wait and see. trust and verify and all that stuff. but i think putin has a chance to be a great world leader for a few months leading up to his winter olympics next year. so don't put down the chances it's in putin's interest to be the good guy here. i think it's possible. up next, she hasn't made it official, but it looks more and more like hillary clinton is running for president.

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i'm milissa rehberger. several shootings across chicago have left people dead and hurt. 13 people were shot in a park including a 3-year-old boy. he's in critical condition. the mexican military is flying in supplies to people stranded by flooding in acapulco. at least 97 have died. and blackberry announced it's cutting 40% of its workforce. back to "hardball." i don't. somebody may know, but i don't. i'm not somebody who does. we're a long way ahead. i think she'd be the first to tell you there's no such thing as a done deal by anybody, but i

don't know what she's going to do. >> he is the big dog. that was something. that was bill clinton for that one person in the world who doesn't know about his wife's potential presidential campaign in 2016 and the chances she'd win. that interview comes on top of today's reporting from politico's clinton expert maggie haberman who revealed information on the possible presidential plans already for 2016. she writes quote, while clinton has not made an emphatic final decision, some inside her orbit are now premised on the assumption she is likely to run. several sources say. and that many important decisions about her schedule and profile on prominent issues are being made with this goal in mind. maggie, by the way, couldn't join us today. but we'll get back to her later as soon as we can talk to her. i want her on the show too. right now we've got msnbc contributor joann reed and ryan grim. i want you both to talk right

now. thank you so much for this. we're also going to look at tea leaves for evidence of a potential run. i don't think the democrats have a plan "b." maybe biden but not really a plan "b." >> everyone is presuming she's going to run. even conversations i've had within the clinton orbit -- yeah, hillaryland. >> be really political here. is that saying i'm not sure a statement of the official line? >> i think that's an official line. their body language says she's running. everything they're doing. they say to you verbally it's up to her. we're not sure. but all of the tea leaves, you can read the body language. everything says she's going to run. >> ryan, tell me why that is a good strategy to have your people saying they don't know if you're running or not and then act like you are? >> i don't know that it would be. and the people that i've spoken to in her orbit have been consistently saying privately, yes, she is running.

as far as they understand, she's in. and i was talking to a source close to her who spent a decent amount of time in the hamptons recently saying the same thing. everything exactly as maggie reported, every conversation is premised on the idea she's running. and the conversations were extremely detailed getting down to delegates in specific states. that's the way the clintons do it. if they do it, they do it all. >> if they do it right. they didn't do it right in 2008. they ignored the caucus states. they won every big state except illinois. pennsylvania, new york, illinois, new jersey. everything. indiana, they won california. they won them all, but they lost the little state where is all these caucus people from the 1960s like me all show up, all the old liberals. and the vote in those and voted for barack obama. >> based on the conversations she's been having this summer, they're not going to make that mistake again. they're not leaving anything

unturned. if that's what you want to do, maybe you do need to start running three years ahead of time. of course it does have its draw backs. >> i have a sense that hillary clinton will be to our right. she's going to go to the center on foreign policy and more hawkish than i've ever been. i'm not sure about you, but probably. much regular democrat like the bread and butter jobs, working for the working class white people to be blunt, as well as black people. working that sweet spot. but also some of that neocon conservatism. she's consistently seen on every issue whether it's libya or iraq as more hawkish than the president. >> i don't know if that's a function of being the woman in politics as being the -- >> the hawk? >> yeah. you got to be rough and tough. >> don't scare me. because if she's president and she takes that line, i'm going to be a problem for her. >> i don't think she's all that way. everyone's been scarred by iraq. i don't think they're reckless. but i think she is slightly to

the center right of obama. >> how about merkel, somebody in the middle? >> the democratic party, the gravitational pull is to the left. >> yeah. we saw it last week. >> and that's what they got on last time. it's the minority vote and the more liberal vote. >> the only thing that would be interesting here is to think -- ryan, i want to ask you. we were in a producers meeting this afternoon and we're sitting around saying if there wasn't a hillary clinton and there is, but if there wasn't one, who would be leading the democratic party for the presidency? who would be coming up? sure biden's still around, but who would be the comer the one that would probably end up winning? who is this person? it's hard to figure. >> exactly. almost by default would go to somebody like biden, because everybody else is kind of a grade or two below. you've got folks like martin o'malley that's going to make a run. then other people like the

klobuchars and gillibrands. and then there's push to get warren into the race even if to push up political capital. and i think democrats are lucky they don't have to go through that. because they do have i think a deep bench. but not much of kind of a first string. you know, they have hillary clinton and after that -- >> while you're on -- i'm sorry. let me go back and forth here. we've got new polls here. virginia who has become a swing state. when i saw it on election night, it was too close to call. that means you go to ohio. >> absolutely. >> 9:00 at night that happened, then. that was late for me to find out who was going to win that one. it seems the republicans must be looking at the polls we put on every night which are christie's close. it's a -- you know, that's a call, that one. the other guys fade off almost double digits. >> the problem is the republican party right now, it's all the way to the right. somebody like christie would

seem like the establishment say take this guy who's a liberal. but i'm sure new jersey doesn't think he's liberal. >> they want the white house more so. they love executive power. >> they do. >> same question to you. any chance they'll go down the middle with someone closer to hillary? >> i think there's a ton that's going to happen now and 2016. we're at the beginning of the crackup. >> okay, thanks. i thought we were going to have a war with iraq between now and the next time. a lot less was going to happen than i thought. thanks for coming on. when we come back, we'll be back right after this. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow.

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tell these house republicans - enough already! new polling on some hypothetical matchups in the swing state of virginia. let's check the score board. according to a new poll, clinton leads rand paul by nine points. it's clinton 49, 40. but look at this. if the republicans don't go hard right and nominate chris christie of new jersey instead, much tighter race in virginia. clinton 42, christie 41. we'll be right back. with more technology, to get you into, and out of, tight spots. and more space so that you always have your favorite stuff. and just for good measure, an incredibly efficient 40 mpg highway. so that when you're doing more, you're spending less. the all-new nissan versa note. your door to more.

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congestion, for the smog. but there are a lot of people that do ride the bus. and now that the buses are running on natural gas, they don't throw out as much pollution into the air. so i feel good. i feel like i'm doing my part to help out the environment. welcome back to "hardball." pope francis dominated today's front pages of our newspapers in this country with his criticism of the catholic church for focusing on gay marriage and

contraception and abortion. here's where pope francis' interview appears. we cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage, and contraceptive messages. i have not spoken much about these things and i was reprim d reprimanded for that. we have to talk about them in a context. we have to find a new balance otherwise even the moral ed fas of the church is going to fall like a house of cards. in the "new york times," it said pope says church is obsessed with gays, abortion, and birth control. the wall street journal, said pope criticizes church's focus on gays, abortion. news day put it bluntly in church must change. and the new york post puts it this way, holy see change. pope's words are a change in doctrine and could a long way in changing the image of the church. matt malone is editor and chief of the magazine which published

the interview. sister mary hughes is a catholic nun who served on a group that advocates for social justice. father malone, thank you so much for coming on and sister mary hughes as well. it seems to me that this has to do so much with to do so much with the commitment in pope has had toward the poor, social justice and in saying what he did which got all the headlines. i guess still in a muted way, contraception, he's trying to say let's put the focus on the things we did even the more liberal catholics. your thoughts. >> i think that's right, but i actually think his call is even more profound and deeper than that. he's really calling us to the basics of our faith, so remember that at the very heart of the catholic faith is our belief that we are created and redeemed

by god of love and only within the context of that relationship does all that the church teach and does make sense. >> sister, your thoughts. >> i agree with that. i was delighted to hear the words he said and i think it's really his consistent call to bring us back to our emphasis on the gospel and there's a line in there some place about if we only focus on the rules, we lose our sweetness of the gospel. and it's that gospel called falling in love with the god that loved and created us, that makes the rules livable and not ends in themselves. >> this whole thing, maybe non-catholics watching, i hope you pay attention. new things where we condemned the limits of capitalism and said it had a lot to do with social legislation of this country and new deal, unemployment compensation,

social security, minimum wage, child labor laws. so much of that came out of church philosophy. why has that been lost since the early 20th century? >> john paul ii put the church front and center in support of human rights internationally and you know, benedict was quite critical of capitalism. i think what the pope has done is he is again calling us back to first principles and saying what's important to remember, whether it's a political question or an economic question or social question, the subject of each of those questions is always a person. not an idea, a social construct, a political party, but a person created in the image and likeness of god and is endowed with a certain dignity. >> on the "today" show this

morning, savannah guthrie asked cardinal timothy dolan if the pope's words, how would he change approach to contraception. journalists have to ask these questions. these are the usual media questions, especially from non-catholics to catholics. here they are. >> you are somebody who's the head of the u.s. conference of catholic bishops, been involved in things like fighting obama care's policy on contraceptives. does that change where you spend your time or where you place your emphasis? >> yes, it does. i wouldn't exactly use those issues that you thought thoughtfully observed, but you hear what he said to bishops the other day, don't be in an airplane looking down. look down there with them. now, that is good for me to hear. that's an examination of conscious. >> now, i'll be the journalist starting with sister. do you think there's any chance this new pontiff will make some changes in terms of the discipline of celibacy of male

priesthood monopolies, things like that? >> it's hard to say, chris. i don't think that's what this conversation was about. that's what his directives are about. they're about refocusing ourselves, putting our emphasis on people and i think it's important to remember that the emphasis on social justice, all of those things, have been very much part of the work of religious congregations. he's a member of the society of jesus, so it's been very much a part of his life as a jesuit. >> thank you. father, just a moment. your thoughts on that because i think you're right. sister. >> i think that there are, as sister said, there hasn't been a d doctrinal change, but i wouldn't underestimate that the power of a change in tone. you know, what the pope has said is for instance, on the issue of

gay lesbian people, he said, you know, we have always taught in the modern era that gay, lesbian people have to be respected, welcomed. they have to be treated according to their inherent dignity. while that's been an aspect, it actually the most important thing we teach about gay and lesbian people. this is about getting our priorities straight and before we you know, march headlong into any other kind of reform, structural or otherwise, we have the reform our attitudes and heart first. >> well said. thank you so much for coming on. we'll be right back after this. this is "hardball." now you canf a kick in the rear! v8 v-fusion plus energy. natural energy from green tea plus fruits and veggies. need a little kick? ooh! could've had a v8. in the juice aisle.

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this coming week is going to be a hell raiser. those on the republican right want to bring down the house ordinarily shake things up so loudly that the country will think it fell. this is not my brand of politics. i think politicians left and right ought to make their cases powerfully and imaginative as they can, then find a way with the other side to work things through. all this threatening and demanding we see today simply isn't working. all that it accomplishes is to weaken the respect and confidence some still place with the american government. the winners of every shutdown will be the bomb throwers that get themselves on television by dictating terms and their allies joining them this wanting to make the american federal government as confused