diving into trouble. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. dead beat. a person who tries to evade paying debts. that's the webster's new world college dictionary definition. the question now before the u.s. congress is whether america itself decides to be a dead beat country. does the united states of america wish to state now on the record it will no longer accept responsibility for paying the military's salaries or the service people? will not pay for the fighter

planes we buy? will not pay the cost of housing and treating disabled veterans. will we let the word go forth that this country will not pay its bills, will not make good on the commitments to which it has legally bound itself. is the wealthiest land in the world ready to turn itself into a dead beat? worst yet, get itself branded as much on world markets. luke messer is a republican from indiana and congressman chaka fattah is a democrat. let's start with speaker john boehner. they put on a show after a continuing resolution that would kill obama care in its crib. it's a bill they know has no chance of becoming law and every chance of shutting down the u.s. government. >> the american people don't want the government shut down. and they don't want obama care. the house has listened to the american people. now it's time for the united states senate to listen to them as well. thank you.

>> there's also high drama on the house floor as democrats pleaded with republicans to abandon their kamikaze mission, they call it, to defund the affordable care act. >> what is brought to the floor today is without a doubt -- without a doubt a measure designed to shut down government. it could have no other intent. its purpose is clear. >> it is a blatant act of hostage taking. the republican cr also lays the groundwork for a default on our debt. an unthinkable act. >> and just hours later president obama himself delivered a fiery campaign-style speech out in kansas city taking aim at republicans in congress. >> we fail to increase the debt limit, we would send our economy into a tail spin.

that's a quote, what i just said. you know who said it? the republican speaker of the house john boehner. you don't have to threaten to blow the whole thing up if you don't get your way. if they would act with the common decency and purpose you do every day the economy would be stronger not just five or ten years from now, but 20 or 30 or 50 years from now. and as long as i'm president, that's what i'm going to focus on. >> you heard the president mention this falls on the shoulders of house speaker john boehner. he managed to call to the far right of the caucus. the senate is going to send it back to him without the kill obama care language in it now. if ted cruz holds good on his promise to do quote, everything necessary and anything possible to defund obama care next week, he could drag out the process to sunday, the 29th of september.

that would leave speaker boehner just a day before the government shutdown. congressman, let me ask you about this word dead beat. do you accept my definition? someone who won't pay their bills. >> chris, are you talking to me here? >> yes, you. congressman messer. >> yes, i think it's important to pay your bills. >> why don't you? >> chris, listen, we passed a bill today that would fund government and that would protect the american people from obama care. the people that are talking about shutting down government are you, the president -- and nancy pelosi. >> okay. let's get the precedent here. the government has to pay its bills. you have a continuing resolution because you haven't passed the appropriations because among other reasons ted cruz has insisted the two should never meet in conference this year. there never was a chance to set an adequate set of appropriations bills. that's a fact on the record, sir. that's not an argument. my question to you is list all the programs that you've tried to kill in a continuing

resolution on budget deadline. end of the year deadline. give me all the other ones besides obama care. congress has ever tried to kill using the continuing resolution. list them for me. >> yeah. i mean -- >> no. listen to me. what time in history in this country has the congress tried to kill a bill that's been signed passed by the congress in both houses, 60 votes in the senate, 218 in the house, legally signed into law by the president, then killed by continuing resolution. you act like this is a normal thing, to hold hostages. >> chris, you have a president who will negotiate with vladimir putin, but won't negotiate with house republican congress. >> you can give the speeches. i can only ask a question. >> and we have both the cr and the continuing resolution to solve here. you know that many of the provisions of obama care are not popular even among democrats. the lcio came out against many provisions yesterday. the president's support on this bill is crumbling. that's why we see all this

vitriol out of the left. >> let me ask you, is the affordable care act a law of the land? >> what is the law of the land that was -- >> is it a law of the land? >> yeah. it was orchestrated to be delayed in its implementation for three years. the signup for it starts in a few days and obviously becomes effective in january. >> your position is the united states government cannot pay its bills after october 1st unless you kill the affordable care act. that's the deal. that's your deal. >> my position is that we should fund government and protect the american people from obama care. >> how's that different from what i just said? okay. let's go to congressman fattah of philadelphia. congressman, i think the congressman in his own way said the deal here is -- and i think the way the american people understand it -- that the republicans are saying unless you can kill obama care as it's called now, by october 1st, there will be no government by

october 1st. that's the deal. >> two things to make clear. one is the president of the united states barack obama has never spent $1 or added one dollar to the debt that the congress did not direct he spend through an appropriation bill. so the question now is are we going to pay our bills? this is not debt run up by the president. this is debt authorized by the congress that we need to pay and need to do it before we run up to our credit limit. two is you don't pass anything in our government. you learn this in high school and middle school if you go to a good one, that you have to pass something out of the house and the senate and the president has to sign it for it to be law. republicans have killed obama care 40-plus times. it's not dead. which is why they are going through this last bit of activity here because on october 1, americans are going to learn something, which is that for many cases you're going to be able to get a quality health insurance program with a private company that's going to protect you and your family. and the republicans as they fought against social security and medicare, as they seem to be against things that would help

the public, the only thing they seem to be for is tax cuts for the rich. they're going through this but the president is not going to equivocate one inch, not going to compromise one iota. we're going to have this fight if we need to have it. the only question is, how much do we need to hurt our own economy for the republicans to learn that they lost the last presidential election? >> thanks for coming on this show, by the way. this is going to be a heated argument not just here, by the way. let me ask you how it's going to go next week. the senate is expected because it's a democrat-led senate that it's not going to include the elimination of obama care in the resolution. that will come back to the house of representatives. hopefully in time for the leadership to do something for speaker boehner. what do you want speaker boehner to do if he's confronted with the fact the senate did not go along with the house. what do you want him to do? >> it's hard to deal with the hypotheticals of what could happen next week, chris.

we want to rid the american people of obama care. we have two major issues before us. both the continuing resolution and the debt limit as well. i think it gives us multiple opportunities to bring this policy forward. the president has already signed seven bills that have changed obama care, he's delayed the employee mandate, so it can be delayed. >> let me ask your bargaining position. speaker boehner has eluded to the fact he may not hold the hostage of obama care. he may say we'll put together a list of cuts or throw in keystone pipeline or other things that the republican majority in the house would like to see done as part of the continuing resolution. fair enough, by the way. that's traditional horse trading. this time around you take another shot at it during their fight over the debt ceiling in a couple weeks. this time around get some spending cuts and perhaps the keystone. would you go along with a deal like that at the end of next week? >> yeah, potentially, but it requires the president to come

to the table and agree -- >> i understand. but are you waiting at the table? >> sure. we have big issues as a country. we have a failing economy. we have a budget out of control. and we have these challenges of obama care. we need to make major progress on all three. >> it's not a take it or leave it from your end about killing obama care? >> listen, i believe it's the right policy. we have two opportunities there to do it. and i think frankly that the president when the american people make it clear in the next several weeks, he will step forward and at least delay this law. listen, this president's known for drawing lines he doesn't keep. i think there's a potentially -- >> do you ever gamble, sir? privately? >> i really don't -- no, i really don't like gambling. >> go to the track or anything? because i'm available if you want to call me afterwards. i'm ready. the president's not going to give up on obama care. congressman fattah, if you want give bookie advice here. what do you think the odds are the president of the united states will give up on the one sure thing that will get him in the history books, obama care,

40,000-some people waiting in the emergency room right now, your thoughts? >> there's not a person in the country except for people who are drinking this tea party tea who believes that the president is going to walk away from obama care. it's not going to happen. >> thank you for coming on friday late in the afternoon, thanks for sticking around. congressman luke messer of indiana and congressman chaka fattah. [ male announcer ] this is brad.

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welcome back to "hardball," where the frustration and anger against ted cruz by many republicans today continued. cruz spent the last few months

pushing republicans to use the threat of a government shutdown to ease support for the affordable care act. cruz this week essentially admitted there was little hope in the u.s. senate itself to pass a defunding bill. instead he tossed the hot potato to the republicans in the house that weren't too happy with that. here's representative peter king today calling cruz a fraud, strong word. let's watch. >> it's something we have to do, a step in the right direction. hopefully, it will be a major step in letting people know that ted cruz is a fraud and he'll no longer have influence in the republican party. this is a signal we have to take more realistic and practical approaches. we can't be going off on these false missions people like ted cruz wants us to go on. it requires real conservative solutions, not cheap headline hunting schemes.

>> congressman, i've never seen anybody in the street calling another member of their caucus is fraud. strong stuff there from some republicans in the northeast and the midwest. is this a texas thing, cruz, that he's that far out? what's your view of where he fits in the party? >> they better not mess with texas. nobody thought ted cruz could win election in the senate against david dewhurst, the lieutenant governor, who's so far ahead of him in the polls early on, he was thought to be unbeatable. cruz came through and pulled it off in one election to the u.s. senate. ted asked for the opportunity to take this up in the senate. we gave it to him. i wouldn't be surprised if he delivers, i certainly hope he does. >> let's get the reality here. i know you like him. you're a loyal texan from the lone star state and all that. but is it the lone star state on this one? it takes 41 votes to basically stop a measure from getting to a vote. does he have 41 votes to do that? not just a vote for obama care elimination, whatever that's

about. but to actually stop this continuing resolution from financing the government? can he do that? >> listen. we picked up two democrat votes in the house of representatives today. we can hope ted can get a few over in the senate. listen. the american public has turned on obama care. we've got senators up for election on the democrat side who would be well to listen to their constituents and the american people. >> why do you think so many republicans up in the northeast and midwest are calling this guy no good? these are pretty personal statements by people like peter king. what's this about? >> a couple of them might be running against him for president too. >> let me ask you about the president. is he running for president? i say he is. would you agree? >> i wouldn't be surprised. >> no, eligible. stick to the point, congressman. i believe he's eligible. you have an american where you're born, i believe you're a natural born citizen. do you agree with that? >> listen. we've had this discussion about president obama, so -- >> i'm talking about cruz. stick to the point, congressman. cruz.

>> he's as eligible as obama is. >> well, what does that mean? >> obama is president, ted cruz can be president. >> what do you mean? explain terms -- this is serious business, congressman. you're shuffling about this. is he eligible to be president or not? you've been touting the guy. explain. is he eligible? you brought it up, i didn't. >> i think he's eligible. i'm giving you a yes answer. >> if obama was born overseas to an american mother even if the crazy theory of donald trump is true, he'd still be eligible to be president, by that standard. >> we're talking about ted cruz. >> can't you move an inch mentally. >> i'm telling you president obama is the president. >> no, no. you brought this up. >> what better -- >> is he -- >> yes. >> was he legitimately like the president of the united states? >> i wasn't in congress to determine that. that was determined before i got here. >> when does congress get to determine whether a president

meets the standards? a vote in congress between now and 2016 to know if ted cruz is legitimate? >> when the congress accepts the electoral votes. that's when it would have been timely to raise. >> and what would you have done? why are you afraid of this? >> i'm not afraid at all. >> is he a natural born citizen? >> i said ted cruz is -- eligible to be president. >> this is the problem with your party. it's gotten so far into the wacko bird. what's wrong with saying barack obama is a natural-born citizen and, therefore, eligible to be president? >> i said he is president. we're nitpicking over words. >> you were playing a game. i'm trying to once again make him not quite the president. he got into office, but he didn't do it legitimately. did he? just say he did? >> say what? he's president. he's president.

what more is there to say? >> repeat after me. he was legitimately elected president. >> president obama was elected president. >> legitimately. >> the people elected him. yes. >> legitimately. so he was a natural-born citizen. >> i didn't make that judgment when he was brought in. >> everybody watching knows what you're doing. you're dodge bulling. let me ask you about the united states government. what's your view about the continued resolution funding the government beyond october 1st. you want that to happen or not? >> absolutely. we voted to fund everything but obama care. of course we want to keep funding the government. >> but obama care is law of the land. >> and we're congress. guess who gets to change the law of the land? congress. >> you're not changing it, you're simply defunding it. >> we are changing the law that grants the money to obama care. >> let me ask you the same question i put to the others -- >> the constitution gave us the power of the purse. we're exercising it. >> and that's right.

the congress passed by 218 votes obama care. it was also passed by the senate with 60 votes. the president signed it. it's the law of the land. my question is list the other laws congress has vitiated. what other programs has congress killed. just once. >> we can do it. we have the power of the purse. just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done. i think the constitution is pretty clear that the house of representatives gets to decide where the money is spent. >> congressman, you're saying that and it's true by definition. but the question is, don't come back and then say this isn't a fight you didn't start. don't say the president started this fight insisting obama care was funded. ted cruz started it and other -- >> i never said that. i'm against obama care. i want it to go away. >> thanks for coming on the show.

it was the kind of heated discussion which is going on in congress. haven't called anybody a fraud, by the way. up next, your chance to play "hardball." i'm going to answer your twitter questions, i don't like that word, twitter, but it's serious. this is "hardball," the place for politics. the up all-nighters. and the ones who turn ideas into action. we've made our passions our life's work. we strive for the moments where we can say, "i did it!" ♪ we are entrepreneurs who started it all... with a signature. legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses, turning dreamers into business owners. and we're here to help start yours.

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welcome back to "hardball." it's time again for our special segment. let's play "hardball" where you the audience get to turn the tables on me and ask me anything on twitter. so let's get started with a question from tim rogers of texarkana. a real texan again. he asks are we doomed to this gridlock forever because of gerrymandering in the states? here's the problem, and it's so interesting. a lot of minorities and liberals live in big cities. they get 90% votes. a lot of votes of liberals don't count as much as they should. it's the way the geography works. add to that the gerrymandering that goes on. my state, in pennsylvania where

i grew up, 100,000 more votes were cast for democratic candidates for congress, statewide, than for republicans. how many republican congressman? 13. how many democrats? five. even though the democrats got a overall total much higher than republicans total votes, c.d., republicans come out ahead. that's what's gerrymandering. the next is from kenneth hobes a veteran from chetek, wisconsin. he asks what political benefit is there for the gop to shut down the government and deny health care and stop feeding the poor? i think they're playing to their base. i think there are people in this country, about 20%, maybe more, who are angry at obama, hate him, don't like him, maybe hate big government. they hate gun control. they hate it all. they're in an upset, angry mood. they are patriotic people, but they are really angry. and i think this kind of

gamesmanship and brinkmanship plays to them. that's "hardball," thanks for being with us. up next, "your business" with jj ramberg. heartburn relief that neutralizes acid on contact and goes to work in seconds. ♪ tum, tum tum tum tums! bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button?

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