that is the question the president left us with yesterday. sandy and lonnie phillips certainly care enough especially because of the tragedy they have been through. i want to thank them for joining us tonight. dangerous cruz. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. a big story on hillary clinton tonight on that terrorist attack in kenya. but i want to say a word about this ted cruz guy. not since joe mccarthy have we seen a senator with such sinister self-assuredness. he knows who and what he hates. he hates everything about president obama. his goal is to exterminate the entire obama record. reject everyone obama nominates for office.

demagoguery and history shows it, while dynamite for the short game in politics, there's always a crowd when someone's about to explode, doesn't make for a good career move. soon people discover you are essentially a negative force. primarily interested in attacking whatever, whoever you see out there in front of you. cruz wants to kill the affordable care act which was legitimately enacted into law. he wants to bring the american government to a halt, renege on the national debt to get it removed. this is how he wants to be known. this is a brand he wants to establish for himself even if it tears the government apart. michael grimm is a new york republican. thank you for joining us. let me just get something straight. i don't think i met you more than once or twice, mr. grimm, but i want to ask some certain questions that have been raced on this show recently. first of all, do you believe that president barack obama was legitimately elected president of the united states twice? >> yes. of course. >> do you believe that the affordable care act was legitimately passed by both house of congress with the

60-vote supermajority in the senate and signed legitimately by the president? >> yes. >> so -- >> during the majority the democrats had, absolutely. >> and it is a legitimate part of the law of the land right now. >> yeah, no. it was enacted into law. i think some of the delays are in question, but overall, yes. absolutely it was enacted into law. >> and yet i want to know your position on this. there are those in your party -- i think 30 or 40 -- who are pushing it but others going along who believe this. they believe the united states government should stop if necessary to get that bill defunded or in other words exterminated. and the other people -- in fact, a good number of them -- also want to go further and say the united states government should basically default on its debt if necessary to make sure that obama care as it's been called is destroyed. is that your view? >> no. i don't think shutting the government down, defaulting on our debt, not honoring our obligations to our military veterans and seniors does anyone any good. so i have disagreed with senator cruz.

i think he has dialed up the rhetoric to a point where it's actually hurting the republican party. it's not good for our party. it's not good for america. but at the same time -- >> is he a fraud? is he a fraud? do you think he's for real or -- i think he's for real in a terrible way. a terrible way meaning someone who believes that my way or the highway to the point of destructiveness. and not exactly interested in republican government which is to represent the people generally and the government to keep it going. but you think he's a fraud? or do you think he's the real thing? a real -- well, radical's not a bad word for him, i think. >> i've said this before. i think when he came out and basically put up his hands and said it's up to the house now to do it, i think it's a cowardly act, number one. and it showed he wasn't being honest with the american people. he always knew they did not have the votes in the senate, so he wasn't being forthright. and again, that certainly doesn't help the republican party. but more importantly, it's not about republicans or democrats.

it's about the greatest nation in the world. it doesn't help our society move forward. it doesn't help our seniors, our veterans, or anyone else. the rhetoric needs to stop. that doesn't mean we don't need to have a serious discussion. what we miss in this when you have someone like senator cruz railing the way he does, is you miss the legitimate arguments which is 7 million americans according to the cbo will lose their sponsored health care as it is now. the 15,000 spouses that worked for u.p.s. will no longer have the coverage they once had. those are legitimate arguments and need to be protected too. their voices need to be heard. that's one of the reasons i'm on your show, to speak to them. their voices need to be heard. >> by the way, i hope things are going a little better than in your area, staten island especially got hit so hard by sandy. i want to speak about that later in the fall here. let me bring in steve schmidt right now. it's fascinating the whole

thing. i have never seen a guy like cruz. i think he makes rand paul seem tame. but this idea of basically jamming the other house, attacking them, forcing them -- well, without doing anything really himself except talk. >> well, it is remarkable to watch. and at least now you see the congressman doing it, you see many other republicans doing it. but it's well past the hour where this type of stuff needs to be confronted. and we need to have a fight inside the republican party where we can take conservatism's good name back. what ted cruz is doing is neither conservative or principled. it is radical and opportunistic. this is a disaster for the republican party. i think it's all about him running for president in 2016. he sees a lane of people who are motivated by one thing, opposition to the president at all costs. they don't care if there's not a single policy idea, a single

solution to one of these country's problems. we have more than a few of those folks in the republican party. and we're going to need to have a contest where we have the solutions oriented conservatism that has worked in the past. put up against cruzzism and as you know, chris because you were there, ronald reagan would be appalled by this. >> i know. >> he was a pragmatist. he was a problem solver. he wasn't a defaultist. he wasn't like one of these guys like cruz. >> well, ted cruz's position could be confused. this gets tricky but it's interesting to members of congress certainly. the funding bill he supports which is now in the senate, he wants to filibuster. in other words, he wants to fight for which defunds obama care as part of this continuing resolution. yet he says let's filibuster it. let's watch. >> it should be an easy decision for senate republicans to stand united and to support house republicans. and i'll tell you, any vote for

cloture, any vote to allow harry reid to add funding for obama care with just a 51-vote threshold, a vote for cloture is a vote for obama care. >> explanation for that is. let's watch. >> it's not a tactic we can carry out and be successful. and i am sure that the senate is going to move that bill forward. you know, the ironic thing is that the answer now in the senate by those who proposed the strategy is to filibuster the very bill they said they wanted. >> let me ask you about the congressman, congressman grimm on this one. do you understand how crazy this is? cruz is saying to filibuster the bill you came up with. >> this is the reality, a harsh reality for the republican party. we have our own internal struggle and challenge we have to deal with. and i have many conservative principles, but at the end of

the day i was elected to govern and to use my skillset as a leader to try to bring people together. this is the united states of america. and when i was in the marine corps, the army, navy, air force, we had our squabbles. but we all went together as team usa. that's what the republican party has to do. when we deal with these growing pains to unite and we should be uniting our party, that also means reaching across the aisle and getting things done together as team usa. and senator cruz is really hurting the republican party from working among themselves but also working to stop any of the bipartisanship if we're going to get anything of substance passed through the house and signed on the president's desk. >> now, steve, i didn't do this just because you're on this show, but i know you're going to like who is siding up here with ted cruz. senator cruz does have a supporter. sarah palin remember she was governor of alaska until she quit? she wrote an op-ed that said as follows.

if the senate doesn't get behind ted cruz's efforts to defund obama care, it wouldn't be because of failure on ted's part. it would be there weren't enough principled leaders to stand with him. it's enough to set it on cruz control. they've written my political obituary. good luck with that you weasels. and a reminder up to re-elections in 2014, moose season ends allowing more time on one's hands. we'll be watching your votes carefully this week. steve, what do you think of this frankenstein monster, this woman that can threaten every single republican in a primary fight? >> well, look. this isn't new news. for the last couple of years, we've had this wing of the party

running rough over the rest of the party. tossing out terms like rhino saying we're going to purge the moderates out of the party. that, you know, it's all of the people that she's attacking in her statement. we've lost five u.s. senate seats over the last two election cycles. and fundamentally we need republicans whether they're running for president, whether they're in the leadership of the congress to stand up against this asininity. you saw it with ted cruz. maybe he's the one that has gone a bridge too far. as we come up against a potential default, potential government shutdown, wise people understand the political consequences for the republican party. maybe we'll start seeing our elected leaders stop being intimidated by this nonsense, have the nerve, have the guts to stand up and say enough is enough. this isn't what the republican party's about. to fight to take conservatism's

good name back from the freak show that's been running wild for four years and that i have deep regret in my part, certainly, in initiating. but it's time for republicans to again embrace what made us successful in the past. which is a party that has solutions to the problems that face the country. >> let me go back to the congressman who's been elected out of new york city. staten island and places like that are more conservative than other places in new york city, but i think you represent that moderate republicanism. i notice that a lot of republicans from the northeast, people like yourself and pat mooeian and tom fitzgerald, voted for cuts in food stamps. it seems like there's a -- >> no question. this has been brewing for awhile. this has been brewing all through the last congress. and now it's finally boiling over because the reality is this

is not what the republican party represents. it's not all or nothing. it is supposed to be a large tent. i came here to actually solve problems. and that's what republicans do very well, because i think one of the differences between, you know, pragmatic conservative opposed to a liberal is the fact we look at things in where we have today and how do we solve today's problem, not the world we want to live in but the world we're in. we do get coopted by the far, far right that isn't constructive and isn't willing to work with everyone. ideologies are dangerous. we have to be pragmatic and be willing to govern and lead. that's not what ted cruz is doing. i think it is time we confront it head on. that's what you're seeing now. and overall i think that's a good thing for the party and will be a good thing for the country because it will get resolved one way or the other. >> how do you see the next couple days from here to the end

of october where there will be a back and forth, the senate will reject the house version, the house will reject the senate version. something will have to get done by october 1st, or the government shuts down. then the hours that commence then, the eleventh hour, 1:00 when it's past midnight, hold it together, then have another big fight over the debt ceiling sometime in october. how's this end for the republican party, do you think? >> look, if the government shuts down, i think it's going to be politically very bad for republicans. republicans will pay the price. certainly probably the president's numbers will come down as well. i think you see that in the pew poll that's out today. the much more serious issue is the potential default. and what i worry about is a guns of august scenario. when you walk that close to the edge, even though it should be able to be avoided in terms of going over it, sometimes an accident happens. sometimes you slip over the

edge. and a default and so many members on the republican side in congress believe that the united states for the first time in its history, this radical notion that the reserve currency of the world that we can default with no consequence, no global economic problems that arise out of that is dangerous. and so i worry deeply about the implications for the country, the economy, and politically just be a disaster of epic proportions for the party if we default and people's savings are wiped out, turmoil in the stock market. it will be very, very bad. and it puts the democrats in a position where potentially they could get the house back and they're certainly not at that place now. it would be one of the great self-inflicted political wounds of all time building on our self-sabotage that led to the loss of the five senate seats over the last two elections. >> congressman grimm, you're in

the caucus, you meet them socially, bump into them at lunch. do they understand the prospects as steve laid them out? >> i think the vast majority of them understand it doesn't help the economy or the country. we are struggling with recovery right now. as so many people are not working, my district was devastated by sandy. there's a lot of small businesses who haven't opened. there are a lot of people struggling to make ends meet. the last thing we need to do is revert back out of a struggling recovery to a down slope towards another recession or a depression. so i wholeheartedly agree that's unattenable. but i think the overwhelming majority of republicans get that. this is more what we're liking to see, calmer minds will sit down and look at things like sequester and see if we can

sweeten the pot to possibly delay obama care because there are some very strong issues that we have. again, 15,000 people spouses from u.p.s. are not going to have coverage they once had. that's a serious issue to talk about. >> thank you. congressman of new york city and steve schmidt. the big headline of a magazine is called hillary in between. find out where she gave away more than she may have realized. this is a moving forward, a notch forward towards her campaign. also that bloody attack on civilians in kenya. if terrorists can perpetrate a heavily guarded mall like the one in nairobi, what stops them from doing it here? and hollywood is fascinated with not just washington, but us. you saw the emmys last night, you'll know what i'm talking about. jeff daniels, by the way won for playing a guy like me. finally, president obama has taken heat from republicans over his golf outings. now a former president has come

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and a 30-tablet free trial. according to a new cnbc poll, 40% of americans say they're opposed to defunding the affordable care act. that number shoots up to 59% when the issue of shutting the government down or defaulting is included. meanwhile, a new pew poll asks whether people want their elected officials to stand by their principles even if that means a shutdown, only 33% say they do. 57% say they want them to compromise. among non-tea party republicans the numbers are the same. more than half say they want compromise. big surprise here -- i'm just kidding -- among tea partiers, 71% say they want no compromise at all. we'll be right back after this.

welcome back to "hardball."

on friday we told you about the reported politico that hillary claimed the cam pin is all but certain. today her first interview since leaving the state department, clinton was asked about whether she wrestles with running for president. clinton said she does, according to the article. but quote, i'm both pragmatic and realistic. i will continue to weigh what the factors are that would influence me making a decision one way or the other. it's the first time we've heard from hillary clinton herself in her own words say she is actively considering another run for president. let's read between the lines and see if we can figure out what they are really planning for 2016. msnbc political analyst howard fineman is the editorial director for "the huffington post" media group and d.d. meyers worked under president clinton. this is our meat and potatoes here. i think this is worthy of

discussion. first of all, it's new york and new york has a special feel for hillary clinton. it's home cooking up there. they love her and want her to run. the new york media is her home, base media, and she has fed them. what does it teal you she's fed them a real interview in which she talks about the elements, the factors she's considering on the way to making a decision. which in effect is saying i'm making a decision about whether to run for president and i'm looking for ways to get past these obstacles? >> it's probably more important that she gave the interview than it is anything that she said, per se, in the interview. to me it was all pretty unexceptional, and she's looking at it. she's thinking about the factors. i mean, i happen to think based on people i talk to that she's running. i don't think there's any doubt that she's running. but the fact that she's beginning the long dance with the media and with the political establishment now -- >> isn't this part of the rollout? >> yes. let's put it this way. this is untying the bands on the

rug that will eventually be rolled out. >> if there's one person watching who doesn't understand why people do this in politics, why are you coy in politics? why don't you just say i always wanted to be president since i was 13 years old. i married a guy that was president. i've been competing with him. of course i'm running again. politicians ner admit that they're ambitious. >> i disagree with howard on this. i think she actually said the truth. she hasn't decided. >> oh, why does the official word from the people around her talk to this other person who -- >> because the people around her who actually talk to her actually talk to her and know her mind. >> why am i arguing with you? you know more about this. what you don't know more than me is the strategy. how come, howard, she told the reporter in question hagen to talk to certain people and each one of those people said she's running? >> well, i think you just answered your own question. >> see -- i have a different view.

>> let me agree -- >> the official word is unofficially she's running. >> in fact, i think the default setting is obviously that's she's running. for all the historical and personal reasons you mentioned, chris. something could get in the way. something could change it. but everything i see and all the people i know tell me that functionally the decision has been made. it's just a question of reaching certain points where she could opt out. it's not a question about whether she wants to do it or in my view whether she's going to do it. >> you know, i think what was interesting -- i think the fact the interview was also really interesting that she did it. and i think it suggests a more confident with the press hillary clinton. this would have been ten years ago, a complicated decision and they would have had to wrus l over it. this time she said -- i think she said i'm still making up my mind. i'm going to tell joe hagen i'm still making up my mind. he talked to a lot of people.

you know you can't control those stories once they're out there. he reported what the lay of the land is. some people think she's running, others say they're not sure. i think she's -- that's where she wants to be right now. she wants time and space to look at the landscape. they wants to think about it. she very well may get there. >> how many dollars would i have to give you for you to give me one dollar if she doesn't run? >> i'll give you a dollar. >> to find somewhere to raise the money to give you because you know she's running. >> i don't know that. i don't know that. >> getting away from that, the important thing to me -- >> you don't know that. >> the important thing to me in the interview is what it says as to what she will say about her knowledge and experience and qualifications. which is that she's been even ever closer to decision making and has been involved in

decision making as secretary of state, having been in the room with the president as a member of the cabinet, not just a spouse. i think there are a couple passages in the interview and story where you can see the outlines of one of the sales points that she would obviously use if and when she actually runs. i think that's important. >> let me be honest with you about what i think. i think once you get close to the presidency, whether you're a first lady or secretary of state or vice president, you do get a sense of -- because you sit there when the decisions are made. and sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong. but your batting average is probably pretty good. you figure i could have made those calls. people i respected got close and they saul said i think i can do that. it's natural for an ambitious person to go to the next step. that's why i'm arguing. logic tells me from my experience, all the guys that ran for student council president said well some of the guys got together and said i ought to run.

there's this game that goes on that i want you to admit to. you won't admit to the gamesmanship. >> the human element of this which is she has worked as hard or harder than anyone in this town for more than 20 years. she's got a little time off now, and by god she's enjoying it. there's life beyond politics. just agree. you haven't seen her, chris. >> let me ask you this. forget hillary clinton. is there the first question i put to you but you went to the rant parts on this. is there not a game played by all politicians to pretend they're not ambitious? >> yes. >> they all play that game. >> yes. >> thank you. >> those aren't exclusive -- >> that would include hillary clinton. >> but it doesn't mean she's not decided. >> no. it just means she's one of many -- i'm just saying she's one of many politicians. she's a politician, right? is she a politician? >> of course. >> okay. that fits the mold. if she's a politician, she behaves like politicians, therefore she is one.

>> boy, that makes a very interesting -- it's all totally deductionist theory there. >> but you're defending -- >> i'm not defending. >> you want her to run? >> yes, of course i want her to run. i hope she does. >> howard fineman and dee dee meyer. up next, look who's defending president obama for playing golf. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ ho ho ho [ female announcer ] at 100 calories, not all food choices add up. some are giant.

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tomato florentine soup, it took a little time to get it just right. [ ding ] ♪ but finally, it happened. perfection. at progresso, we've got a passion for quality, because you've got a passion for taste. it's all going according to my plan. i was promised the hosting job this year and they turned me down. they said they wanted someone more likable. really? look at that parade of blabbering buffoons. they couldn't host a child's birthday party. >> welcome to the sideshow.

that was kevin spacey breaking into his "house of cards" character frank underwood at last night's emmy awards. while the netflix series itself earned only one emmy, politics won the night with shows like "veep," "homeland," and "colbert report." much more later in the show. finally president bush is coming to the defense of president obama on his golf outings. up in arms over president obama's frequent trips to the golf course. but today the former president w spoke out in his support on the golf channel. >> you know, i'd see our president criticized for playing golf. i don't. i think he ought to play golf. >> why is that? >> because i know what it's like to be in the bubble. i know the pressures of the job and to be able to get outside and play golf with some of your pals is important for the president. >> well, bush should know. he took a lot of criticism himself when it came to this sport. who can forget this infamous

golf outing that took place less than a year of 9/11. >> we must stop the terror. i call upon all nations to do everything they can to stop these terrorist killers. thank you. now watch this drive. >> i think other presidents might have avoided having that part put into tape. he wasn't that lucky. and we'll be right back right after this.

welcome back to "hardball." late today kenya's interior minister said security forces over there were now in control of the mall that terrorists seized on saturday. the terror attack has been a bloody reminder that large scale attacks remain part of our world. it was carried out by the al-shabaab group an offshoot of al qaeda. the mall looks as though it could be in a suburb of any american city making it an enticing target for terrorists. edwin coleman is a terrorism expert and don berelli is with the terrorism task force. it struck me and i spent a lot of time our family has over the last 34 years, been to africa a lot. this struck home to me. it just hit me that there's a country like kenya trying toub our ally, trying to modernize

against years and years of primitive economics, breaking through, having areas of success like that mall. and that very iconic success story was attacked. >> yeah. and look, that's exactly what the purpose was. the purpose of this attack was designed to stun and shock people. and part of it is because of the fact kenya is an enemy of al-shabaab and also because al-shabaab has not been doing well lately. this is a way of rallying its troops, of getting al qaeda behind it, of giving it new purpose and new direction. and the problem is that unfortunately the same thing could have also achieved if they launched an attack targeting the united states. since this was such a simple attack and relatively basic, the concern is they could do something like this targeting americans and eventually in u.s. borders. >> i can't think of a good thing to say about somalia. but you think about what they do

in terms of poaching and killing elephants just for the tusks. the going into -- the piracy at sea. everything that happens bad in that part of the world is somali. what is the problem? why are they exporting hell to good countries like kenya? >> i think the problem is a lack of a good standing of central government. one that has control over not just part of the country but all of the country. and we've seen that the best friend of terrorists are these kind of lawless areas without really a central government presence. we've seen it in mali. we've seen it before in areas like afghanistan. we've seen it in pakistan and some of the other tribal areas. so the lack of a good functioning government with rule of law and security and all those things, this is the breeding ground for terrorism. >> let me go back to evan. when you look around the world, what does this tell you in terms of our vulnerable here in the states. >> look. the problem is that al-shabaab even though they're not very sophisticated, they are good at recruiting americans.

they've recruited more than al qaeda. >> who do they recruit? give me the profile. are they somali ethnics who are they? >> you've got somali -- people of somali descent in places like minneapolis. you also have people like omar humami who was killed this week. a kid from mobile, alabama, who has no tie whatsoever to somalia other than he thought it would be a cool place to go and wage holy war. >> had he been down and out -- was he in prison that guy? what's his background? where'd he get recruited? >> this was a guy who was dating the prom queen in high school. he was the head of the soccer team. he had a personal crisis, he felt he needed to explore his family roots and decided to convert to islam which is fine. but then all of a sudden he traveled abroad. >> what were his family roots? >> this is interesting. his father is of syrian origin

but his mother is a christian. he comes from a diverse background. he didn't grow up being fed hate and intolerance. something happened in this kid and he started issuing rap songs from somalia about murdering people. and he started teaching americans from minneapolis going over there about how to murder people. he was actually running training camps for americans who were going to somalia to join shabaab. somalis are the victims here. >> this is all fascinating and scary to any american, but are the people being recruited not have any middle eastern background at all? >> there are. there are people from san diego, minneapolis, there was a guy named zach from northern virginia just outside of washington d.c., who tried not once but twice to get to somalia. was stopped both times on the airplane. the second time he was carrying his infant daughter with him.

he perceived if he had a baby with him, nobody would think he's a terrorist. the greatest achievement of his life before going to somalia was the fact he was the break dancing champion at his high school. there's enough people that it presents a security concern and a threat to americans not just abroad but back at home as well. >> let me go to don on this. how much hate is involved in this? >> i tell you what. i've spoken with a lot of youth in minnesota from somali descent. and a lot of -- it's really not the hate america message that's enticing some of these young people to join the ranks of al-shabaab. they're kind of recruiting tool is more nationalistic. i had one young man pose the question to me, if you had foreign troops invade washington, d.c., wouldn't you want to take up arms against them?

and that's the way they feel about what's going on in their homeland of somalia. their issue is that you have the troops from uganda, from ethiopia that have put boots on the ground in their land of ancestry and so they feel like it's their mission to take up that cause. in a lot of cases, it's not the same message that core al qaeda is using to recruit. it's more of a nationalistic message. >> i'm more concerned and scared about people who recruit not related to somalia. thank you. unfortunately, we're going to be back to this topic again. up next, washington's fascination with hollywood is now a two-way street. and last night's emmy awards proved it. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

after years of decline, the number of illegal immigrants coming to this country may be on the rise again. pew research estimates that as of march of last year there were 11.7 illegal immigrants here. that's up from 11.5 million the year before that. the population of illegal immigrants peaked back in 2007 just before the economy collapsed. and today fewer illegal immigrants are from mexico. they still make up most or just over half of all illegal immigrants, but their numbers are on the decline actually. we'll be right back.

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call now to request your free decision guide. and learn more about the kinds of plans that will be here for you now -- and down the road. i have a lifetime of experience. so i know how important that is. we're back. it was a big night last night for washington-based shows on the emmys. yesterday many of the top shows nominated have political themes. everyone from "scandal" to the "house of cards" to "veep," "homeland" and "newsroom," close to our hears here. one of the surprise winners was jeff daniels who plays an anchor will mcavoy. let's listen to his speech. >> didn't expect this. i usually don't win anything. the last thing i won was a few years away for best actor over 50 from the aarp.

with all due respect to the aarp, this is before the. the great american play wright lanford wilson said, whatever you do with your career, make it matter and make it count. aaron sorkin makes it matter and makes it count. >> well said. the washington portrayed is far from the "west wing" in the '90s. the new shows are violent and machiavellian in the case of "house of cards" and "scandal" or comedic in the case of "veep." so what's changed? what's changed about reality? ted johnson and alicia quarrels. thank you both for joining us. this is part fun. let me ask you, ted. a friend of mine that makes movies said years ago you can't do a movie about politics. it has to be called a thriller. but now people love house of cards. and i think a hell of a lot of people i know like newsroom and these other slows like veep are fun. are they going to vote more? do they believe nor in democracy? are they watching these for some

other reason? >> i would say these shows are thrillers and soap operas. that's what's changed. especially in the entertainment community. i think there's a much more cynical view than in the days of "west wing." >> what's that mean?

do they think voting is more consequential? do they believe more in democracy or are they watching these for some perient reason? >> i would say these shows still are thrillers. they're soap operas. i think that's what's changed. especially in the entertainment community, i think there's a what's different than what they used to think? >> i think right here it means that you have these stories that are from their very creation from the notion that washington is corrupt and that these are people, characters who are operating within that system. >> and also, it's art imitating life. if you look at things that are going on, like petraeus, like anthony weiner, like john edwards, you can't make this stuff up. hollywood couldn't write a better script. so, if you don't laugh about it and make it art, you would cry

what's corrupt in these shows? >> well, i would agree with you, this is the point i want to make -- >> then say it. don't make me force you to say it. >> yes, there are murderers. yes, there are murderers in these shows, but that is what sells. you know, i would argue that that is what makes "house of cards" addictive, because it's so outlandish. if they had a show that was just about corruption on there, you probably wouldn't have people binge viewing on this show. >> okay. >> it has to take it one step further. the cynicism has to be taken to the next step. >> also what about "scandal," too? the entire show is based on events from a real-life person. the show is about scandal, it is about corruption. so, there's your example right there, hit show doing extremely well, and it's all about, guess what, real things that happen in d.c. >> well, i've never seen it. here's the ones i watch. i watch "house of cards." i think it's fantastic. i think it's really richard iii, basically, in modern costume. i think "newsroom" is pretty darn accurate in certain ways. i think "political animals" was spectacular. it was about the clintons. anyway, "veep" is a comedy about an insecure vice president and

the ambitious staffers around here. julia louis-dreyfus won last night for best actress in a comedy series, and she accepted partially in character with the assist of her co-star, tony hale, who plays her ever-present body man. let's watch. >> and the emmy goes to -- >> julia louis-dreyfus. >> thank you so much! this is so much good fortune. it's almost too much to bear. um, i'd like to thank our -- >> your family? >> my family. [ laughter ] brad hall and henry hall and charlie hall, my children are here this evening. >> you love them so much. >> and i love them so much. >> alicia, that is great schtick, isn't it, playing the part? >> it is great. you're missing out. there is a piece by ashley parker that breaks down why d.c.

loves this show and why it's getting bigger rates raitings than "girls" on hbo. it's because of the satire, because of the fact that it folks fun at d.c. and lifts the veil off of politics. >> let's go with another show. i think "newsroom" is closer to the old model 60 west wing," ted, much more earnest, much more idealistic. >> yeah, but i would say that it is still -- i would still say that aaron sorkin, the creator of this show, is still cynical. i'm going to use that word again, cynical about the news business. i think that he is in his essence, you know, has moments in the show where he is trying to blame the news business for some of the problems, especially this instantaneous cycle we're in. >> exactly -- >> but the whole theme this year is about making a mistake, going with a story like -- what was it called -- "tailwind" where they got the story completely wrong about the military, and these people are so grief-stricken, they all want to quit over it because they felt like they had betrayed the audience and their profession. i thought that was very idealistic most of the show, ted.

>> i think that this actually was a much stronger season this year than last year -- >> so, it wasn't cynical. >> -- by having this kind of ongoing story line. well, what's cynical about it is the propensity for news organizations to make a mistake, to have a story -- >> that's cynical? >> -- that seems to be too good to be true. absolutely. >> also, chris, you're never going to go back to these political shows that were idealistic like "the west wing," because we live in a time now of twitter, of instagram. people have instant access to any scandal that goes down and tv shows have to reflect what society's seeing. >> i hope we live in idealistic world of "west wing" and "newsroom." and if there's one knock on it i've heard, it's too earnest, too believing in the people it believes in the best values of people of getting to the truth of the viewers. ted, you and i are in different businesses and alicia, you're in the entertainment business. anyway, thank you, ted. >> oh, please. >> thank you, alicia. we'll be back after this it

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let me finish tonight with this. i like what jeff daniels said last night in receiving the emmy, "whatever you do with your career," he quoted a ywright, "make it matter, make it count." in "newsroom," jeff daniels' character personified the version of what he's broadcast each night. it's the same idealism that made