crazy, that's the general reaction to day one of the government shutdown, not over money but over obama care. some are in disbelief it has come to this. we're 15 hours in with no end in sight. 800,000 employees are out of work and others are working without pay. national parks closed from the statue of liberty to the lynn on memorial even yosemite on their anniversary. the labor energy and commerce departments and hud and epa. thousands of government contractors have no idea when the next paycheck will come but members of the armed forces will get paid and essential services like the post office and fbi and national security and faa are still up and running. social security checks will also still be issued. house republicans met behind closed doors after lunch to game out the next month and president obama has had enough. >> one faction of one party in

one house of congress in one branch of government shut down major parts of the government. all because they didn't like one law. this republican shutdown did not have to happen but i want every american to understand why it did happen. >> our special shutdown coverage kicks off today with nbc's krist kristen welker at the white house and luke russert on the hill. what is the perspective coming from the administration? >> reporter: good afternoon. i can tell you this administration continues to dig in its heels. you got that sense from the president's remarks earlier today in the rose garden and based on some of my conversations here, i think that the administration officials believe ultimately republicans will blink because they are divided and if you look at the polls, it shows a majority of americans agree with the

administration on this point, disagree with shutting down the government over the issue of the president's health care law even there's still a number of americans skeptical about the president's health care law. you'll see the president continue to do what he did today which is to hold these public events, urge congressional republicans to act, to pass what is called a clean cr bill. he's going to hold another event at the local construction company. that is a tactic he has taken in the past during the payroll tax cut fight. it has been effective but i can tell you jay carney during his briefing just answered a lot of questions about how much ownership president obama has over the shutdown. he acknowledged the fact that of course he is the president but they are still trying to put the blame squarely on republicans. will the public continue to buy that in the coming days? we'll have to wait and see. but i think that is the strategy right now coming from this white house to continue to press republicans publicly. i don't know we'll see a whole lot of meetings going on between

the president and congressional leaders. back to you. >> and luke, that really goes to the reporting you've been doing up late at night watching this all break down. as a matter of constitutional government, i think people have a general understanding that congress has to fund the government and if the government is not funded, congress didn't do it yet. but specifically, the role of john boehner who you spent so much time with following this, he said as recently as march that he was against using obama care to shut down the government. how does that play into his reception on the hill, the fact he's completely reversed himself and taking a position the opposite of what he said was a good idea? >> reporter: it's certainty interesting to see how the gop leadership evolved on ugsing the health care law as a negotiating tactic to get the government funded. during the summer, this idea was brought out by some of the more

hardliners, ted cruz, guys on the real conservative element of the house, gop conference. i can tell you from conversations i've had with leadership aides, they laughed it off, said it would not happen. they were going to make the senate take a tough vote on the health care law but continue to fund the government. what you saw from the ted cruz wing of the republican party they snowballed and became the drivers of the message and drivers of the energy. so much to the point where democrats are not going to bail out john boehner with any type of solutions that perhaps -- the vote or a medical device repeal, something like that, they were sort of going to let him drown with the tea party element. what you've seen over the last few days is that play out. there's a lot of folks in the house republican conference angry about this. a clean cr bill if it were on the floor tonight would pass. after they cross this bridge, they are remarkably calm. this morning they had a photo-op, they sat at the long

table, and tonight they are going to fund a bill to fund the national parks and put moneys towards the va backlog and give d.c. the ability to operate so trash collection, et cetera wouldn't be affected. that's what they are going to do today. they don't know what they are going to do tomorrow. negotiations are not ongoing between the house and john boehner. from where they are right now, the public fallout hasn't hit to the point where they can pass a clean cr. this theory that has been circulated by some of the left and circulated by someone in the leadership, the longer this goes on, it's certainly bad and looks bad and hurts a lot of federal employees, the easier it will be to raise the debt limit because if this plays in for two weeks, which is now a possibility, i never thought i would say that but from conversations i had this is certainly a possibility. this runs up right against the debt limit, it's awfully tough,

awful tough for the republicans to not have at least an extension of the debt limit that is not nearly what they would have had asked for weeks ago. >> kristen and luke, interesting stuff. thanks to you both. michael waldman was in the white house the last time this happened, he was president clinton's chief speechwriter and runs the brennan center for justice at nyu law. i want to pick up where luke left off. the republican caucus is remarkably calm today and you sh marsha black burn talking about -- sort of praising the impact of the government shutdown. let's hear from her. >> a partial shutdown for several days, but steve, people are probably going to realize they can live with a lot less government than what they thought they needed. >> so republicans are kinds of happy about the shutdown right now. i spoke to one member of congress who represents a district with a lot of federal government employees and he and

his office were not hearing a lot from constituents. where is the pressure going to come from that would actually force a deal here? >> well, it's a great question. you know, mark twain said history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes. you see a lot of the themes and a lot of self-delusion in this republican rum p, that you saw in the house republicans back in 1995 and 1996. they were sure then that government was so unpopular that the public would cheer the idea it was shut down. i don't think they are quite as expecting that as they are thinking that the political market has almost priced their craziness into it. they are used to the dysfunction of government and used to the hyper partisanship and polarization. so they think they can sort of live with the cost. i think that it's not so much the tea party hopefuls and

faithful but those conservative but less staunch republicans who will feel the pressure. maybe this is all a way to get the really utterly catastrophic prospect of the debt ceiling not being raised to make it easier to do that. this would be john boehner's secret public service that we're just seeing unfold without realizing it. >> you're saying one party of the caucus will have to take power back from the other part, part of that will come from pressure from the american people and from the president out earlier today, with the message that was both tough and funny. >> they don't get to hold the entire economy hostage over idealogical demands. apple rolled out a new operating system a couple weeks ago and within days they found a glitch so they fixed it. i don't remember anybody suggesting apple should stop selling iphones or ipads or

threatening to shut down the company if they didn't. >> if you were writing for the president what would you want him to say? >> i still haven't upgraded because i want my google map. that whole example confused me. i think -- you know, people in the den of events don't listen to the presidential bully pulpit the way they might have in earlier decades but when there's a crisis they do. it's rare to have a crisis about domestic politics. this is a chance for him to talk to the public and be heard more than he might otherwise. today was a little bit of a funny -- necessarily funny mixed message because he was launching obama care and affordable care act and exchanges. he was sternly saying they shall not pass and shut the government down then surrounded by ordinary citizens saying by the way health care is still open. it looked a little bit like the cold opening on "saturday night live." it looked like another generic

health care event. i think he needs to keep at not just saying i'm the grown-up in the room and people should stop shutting the government down but make the broader point about the role of government and idealogical extremism. the white house could be too sanguin if they believe the blame could fall on republicans. if you look around the newseum website, they are all sort of saying gridlock, congress shuts down government and half attentive member of the public wouldn't necessarily realize how extreme, how out of the ordinary this is. so he needs to be stern and a little bit of battle stations. i wouldn't be too far from the white house during a moment like this. >> say more about that. people say, well, first draft of history is the press. sometimes the first draft of history is the big addresses by

presidents. to your point, a lot of newspapers and narrative defaults back to saying, well, gridlock, no compromise, they are not talking. the "washington post" has had some articles to that effect and better ones i should mention. how do you bridge from that as a presidential communicator back to the underlie facts of the disagreement, number one that there is a majority to fund this government it boehner would allow a vote. number two, as we mentioned, boehner himself has said it is a terrible idea, what they are doing today he's against. and number three, health care is law, deal with it. >> it's a bit challenging, when i was doing this work with president clinton as his chief speechwriter during the shutdowns, he would go into the briefing room and say what his demands were and newt gingrich would hold a conference down pennsylvania avenue and say what the response was. congress passed a budget, the

president vetoed it and there was a broad ideal logical disagreement. the challenge is how does he make that idealogical case when there's nobody to negotiate with, when he's just got the caucus of the house to address. i think he's got to keep this line over and over, vote to reopen the government, vote to reopen the government. don't target the craziest of the crazies, target the reasonable members. >> michael, was going on behind cloegsed doors at the white house? we mentioned it's relatively calm on the hill. someone in the thick of things in the last shutdown that lasted 27 days with president clinton, walk us through what is likely going on behind those doors? was their demonizing, was there panic? first of all, as history knows, they send a lot of staff home and a lot of work was done by interns so things got as it turned out more interesting probably than any of us

realized. it was a small group and there was a lot of realization that the strategy in what he said was really a big part of negotiating in public. but you also have a lot of pressure on any president to really try to stand up for and take care of the american people. even with clinton, now we look back and say that was a huge political triumph. it wasn't clear at the time it was a triumph. and inside the white house there were meetings i remember where vice president gore and leon panet panetta, the white house chief of staff had been up negotiating. there was a lot of concern about the real people who were being hurt at the time by the shutdown. i think now though there's got to be less pressure internally to make a deal because there's no deal to be made. then there was we'll take this tax, this spending cut and split the difference. there's no way to split the difference as far as i can see with what's going on now. it's not exactly the same but i'm sure there's a lot of late

nights and caffeine fueled writing sessions. >> at least this time we're unlikely to have the same sort of intern problem. michael waldman, thank you for your insights. up next, when all is said and done, who will get the blame for this? if you shouted republicans like i would, you may be surprised. as a working mom of two young boys life could be hectic. angie's list saves me a lot of time. after reading all the reviews i know i'm making the right choice. online or on the phone, we help you hire right the first time. with honest reviews on over 720 local services. keeping up with these two is more than a full time job, and i don't have time for unreliable companies. angie's list definitely saves me time and money. for over 18 years we've helped people take care of the things that matter most. join today.

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if you're serving in harm's

way, we'll make sure you have what you need to succeed in your missions. congress has and i'll pass into law to make sure you get your paychecks in time. >> president obama with a message to america's bravest men and women, assuring all members of the military that they will be paid despite the shutdown. but as we know, elsewhere it's far from business as usual. national parks shuderred, d.c. museums locked up, the irs is halting audits but they are still collecting taxes. can we get that changed? today was not exactly ideal timing for a group of world war ii vets to arrive in washington and find the memorial closed. onlookers applauded as they pushed past the barricades to get inside. craig melvin is live at the stonehouse eatery in new jersey, a diner where a lot of people from fort ndix stop by to eat.

craig, what's the mood over there? >> reporter: you know, very simply tour'e, annoyed and confused. you just showed the president's message there. all active duty members should be fine. there may be some ious but should be fine. there's still concern over civilian contractors, which civilian contractors will get paid. as you just indicated this eatery two blocks from fort dix. this is ron le blanc, his place. we should note it's empty because it's closed right now, closed at 2:30, the soldiers and contractors coming in today, what were you hearing from them? >> basically that the unclarity of everything going on. confusion, how long will it continue? directly how it affects me, we're not sure if there's any reserve weekend. so it's just a lot of question that no one has answers for right now. >> reporter: how would you

characterize in general terms business today? >> business today was at least half empty. >> reporter: really? >> absolutely. normally we have crowds to the door and have rush hour and it never really had that impact that we normally have on a typical day. >> reporter: this is a community that just a month or two ago, you had folks who were furloughed a number of days because of automatic spending cuts known as sequester. what was the mood like then. what did that mean for business then? >> we knew about it so it was easy to predict. i guess people had a chance to figure out what needed to be done. this time no one knows anything. i think a lot of people are getting paid and they are supposed to figure out the issues and the people had to leave today at noon don't know what the problems are. there's definitely a problem going on. >> who are you blaming? >> the people getting paid to fix the problem. they are out there doing that our military that we should be

doing are leaving the base at 12:00 today. you tell me, there's definitely an issue that needs to be resolved. >> reporter: ron leblanc, very succinctly describing the senment, active duty reserves, contractors all saying the same thing. >> new numbers out today provide an interesting snap shot, americans oppose, 72-22 and democrats o appoints it overwhelmly 90% to 6%. but republicans support the shutdown 49 to 44. yes, abby, that clearly shows all republicans aren't the same and the 49% number makes me wonder if republicans will actually be punished for their behavior. it's been an article of faith they were punished for the 95, 96 shutdown but it had no effect

on our view of clinton or gingrich or congress. we keep telling you it will be bad for the gop but who will turn on them. we have the uncle of the show, howard fineman. in a gerrymandered world, are republican voters going to turn on republican lawmakers? >> no, especially in red districts, which the federal law and state law has carved out in so many states. so the answer to that is no, but more generally and more globally, i think mr will heblanc put it succinctly as we just heard, which is where are the people supposed to be doing this getting paid to do this thing called governing, where are they and why aren't they doing it. in that attitude, among the public is very widespread and it encompasses republicans and democrats and the president.

republicans are marginally worse off in this situation. but it's a bad situation for everybody. republican numbers are down, democratic numbers are down. and the president's numbers are down. the president's approval rating right now is 44% consensus, which is as low as it's been or lower than it's been in the last two years. >> and howard, to that point, many corners of the media are not doing much to help the public understand what's actually happening here. you had the "washington post" saying democrats and republicans united it's the other side's fault. time, obama and republicans trade blame game. making it sound like this is just washington gridlock and both sides are to blame. i should add huffington post had good coverage that helped people understand what was going on here. when is the media going to actually tell the story as it's happening and not try to engage

in the full balance thing that doesn't help the public understand what's going on at all? >> amen. >> thank you for including us in the media and for showing our front page slash. >> always. >> but it's -- yes, it's a long story that has a history to it. and that history involves both democrats and republicans. but right now, the specific problem is that a wing of the republican party is standing in the doorway and saying this shall not pass. that's the simple fact of it. that's the way we tell it at the huffington post. there have been other times when the democrats in the past have engaged in some of this behavior and times they haven't put forward a budget and sat on their hands. that's all true. there's splentty of game over history, even recent history, but if you're talking about what's happening right now, with the debt -- with the spending bill and problemly the debt ceiling vote coming up, this is the republicans frankly

admitting, they are saying, we want to use this as a forcing mechanism. as a matter of fact, i think the most important thing that happened so far today is a representative paul ryan of wisconsin, the head of the budget committee in the house, has said he views the debt ceiling vote coming up in a couple of weeks as the forcing mechanism for this whole thing. you can't state it anymore directly than that. and that's the republicans talking not the balanced headlines you were showing. >> that's exactly right. this is how the national journal put it, this may be the beginning of the end of washington as we know it. arising generation of pragmatic nonidealogical voters appalled by the leadership. history may consider october 2013 their breaking point. if you look beyond the congressional elections and 2016 presidential race, what will be the long term effects of this and could this possibly be a breaking point when we look back throughout history? >> it's very interesting.

i had a long conversation with john mccain about this yesterday. i said, i remember when you were the maverick and you were the one trying to break all and everything and covered that campaign in 2000. he said yeah but we were trying to get to a deal at that point. in other words, we were sort of a revolt of the center if you will, trying to get to a deal across party lines. on the budget and spending 13 years ago. this is different. the angle and the theme and tone that ted cruz and others are pursuing in the tea party part of the republican party is, let's take the thing down and let's sort of run a protest movement against government itself. and the question for younger voters and if indeed there's going to be another revolt over the pragmatic people in the middle, do you get to it through the let's sort of blow it up first approach of ted cruz and

to some extent rand paul and other at the party people? or look back to the middle somewhere and i don't know where that middle is. frankly i'm waiting for somewhere in the republican party and abby this is not a hint. i'm looking for somewhere in the republican party for somebody other than john mccain, who i personally like and who blotd bloted his own score card putting sarah palin on the ticket. where are those people? they used to exist. i know they are still out there. if they asserted themselves, they could take control. but right now to the extent they exist, they are hiding in the corner somewhere. >> i would love to help, got to be honest. >> many of them exist because we say the votes are there on the floor. they just never pushed to get it bipartisan vote or a discharge petition, which would have been an option when the house was in session. to echo krystal's point, what i heard is partly it's a tough history and it's kmi indicated and that's true.

but i wonder at a certain point there's parts of the media who ultimately are still the referees for the broad public that doesn't follow this stuff closely, whether there's a part of the media that can't actually deal with an asymmetric political story. we were talking about this today in our staff meeting, there are stories that both are at fault for, deregulation, iraq war, war on drugs. this shutdown is not one of them. do you think with all of your experience and colleagues and been in "newsweek," on the road with the campaigns, do you think people can't tell that story? >> maybe so. but i think that's changing. i also have to tell you that right now in the polls at any rate and it's a chicken and the egg thing with media coverage and polling says, i grant that. but right now the latest polls. the approval rating of congress in its entirety is 10%. it's the lowest it's ever been. so at least the readers of those newspapers are basically saying hey, this is all of those people

up there and the president of the united states. it's the whole crowd. so yeah, that's -- i didn't answer the question you asked, i answered my own question there. >> you are uncle, you don't have to answer every question. >> i think it's changing tour'e. i think everybody wants to do a good job journalistically and you have to call it like it is. there's a sign up where john s knight, the founder of the great knight newspaper chains, a slogan, get the truth and print it. it's pretty simple. the truth is, if you cut through all of the spin this is the republicans holding the budget -- >> you're absolutely right. come back soon and don't be a stranger. up next we're going to spin on the question most of america is asking, what are the republicans thinking, mr. speaker, we're talking to you.

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we are back in the spin with our coverage of the government shutdown and it's time to talk strate strategy. what is the end game for republicans? it got more confusing on the house floor when speaker boehner threatened to hold even his own staffers hostage. this was sort of their last gam bit before shutting down the government. they decided to have this bizarre fight, not over whether they are staffers would be on the obama care exchanges because they are, but whether their employer would continue to be allowed to contribute to their health care or whether they would force their own staffers to take a huge pay cut, a bizarre thing to pick a fight over. politico has reporting that makes it more bizarre. boehner actually fought for months alodgeside harry reid to get the government to contribute to the staffer's health care. now wants to go back and shut down the government over the very thing that he spent months fighting for. it just exposes how dishonest

the entire republican strategy has been. >> exactly. the reporting there was pretty extraordinary because it's even worse than you thought. and it goes to your point, krystal, there is no strategy here. there isn't a thing that's being fought for. the president alluded to this when he said i worked with you guys on cutting the deficit because i thought that's what you cared about. we did it. we've got a bill on the floor there to continue to do the sequester cuts and you don't support it because it was allal tear yor motives anyway. >> there is a strategy, that is winning. boehner has made it clear despite opposition to the shutdown and the republicans for the most part getting blame for this, compromise is seen as preemptive surrender and he's not ready to thrown in the towel. you have to remember, the 205 republicans in the house, they don't face opposition from the left in their elections next go around, it's from the right. their voters don't think the way we do about a government

shutdown. they think sticking true to your principles is more important than keeping the government alive and running. >> absolutely, that gerrymandering is the heart of the problem but i don't think there is a strategy. i don't think they are thinking two steps ahead, if we do this we're going to deal with this when we get to the default issue. part of the strategy, if there is one, the media is going to help them. you have made this point already, that false ee quifl lens is part of the problem when media talks about showdown, gridlock, media is contributing and aiding and abetting in the problem. tell the real story that the republicans are shutting down the government so that a few people, 30 million people who are working poor are not going to get health care, don't say both sides are problem because they are not. >> and to the extent they have a strategy, i think it does rest on a reliance that the media will do that. real people, real impact, up next, tea party republicans wouldn't turn america into a dead beat nation and threaten

the economy, would they? they are strangely pumped about the shutdown. >> michelle bachmann raves, we're very exciting, it's exactly what we wanted and got it. and nun ez, says conservative republicans all giddy about it. [ female announcer ] we lowered her fever. you raise her spirits. we tackled your shoulder pain. you make him rookie of the year. we took care of your cold symptoms.

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we're less than 30 minutes until the closing bell and stocks are in positive territory. you heard that right. investors had been anticipating a shutdown for a couple of weeks and already factored it in. thus the met for cal shrug today. it does have ceos in wall street eyeing another date, the debt ceiling deadline. missing that could have real economic implications. contributor ben white is the chief economic correspondent at politico and force behind morning money. the biggest impact here is reducing confidence. help explain that.

>> well, yeah, i mean as you see the dow going up and s&p as we mentioned, the shutdown was factored in and the sense on wall street it will be a short shutdown. they misinterpret how long it might be, we might get -- a shutdown is not a big impact day to day to the economy, a couple billion dollars the last time we did this in a $17 trillion economy, it's an impact on some individuals lives in the washington, d.c. metro area. but if it drags on, business confidence, which is already still sort of soft, remnant of the 2009 crisis, consumer confidence has been rising, but now could go back down again because you see a dysfunctional government. people don't care about a short shutdown but if you get close to a debt limt crisis or default, you'll see stocks go down and interest rates will go up and a lot of confidence come out of the system. we could go back to recession in that scenario. >> despite the shut down, obama care launched today.

earlier on "today" show, matt lauer asked jim cramer about the ceos. >> are they saying to you that they think it was worth shutting down the government over this health care? >> not at all, they've all gotten used to it and figured out how to have the paychecks adjusted. if it doesn't do well, they'll readjust, i don't know any ceo who thinks this is right. >> what's the reality when it comes to obama care affecting small businesses and can republicans keep using the argument? >> i don't think they can without em pier cal evidence, there's not a lot of it that the affordable care act is impacting hiring. there's some evidence that maybe there are few more part-time than full-time because of employer mandate even though that's been delayed. the jobs numbers we see month to month have been steady before obama care was coming up and they haven't changed a lot based on obama care.

jim cramer is worked. i talked to larger ceos, some don't like it but it's not going to stop them. they are going to hire people and hire people with health insurance and those people's lives will be better and cost will go down. i don't think the argument that it is a giant threat to economy holds a lot of water when you don't have a lot of evidence to back it up. maybe a few months down the line companies will start complaining about it and tweak it more, but right now i see it as a talking point not on anything based on real evidence. >> ben, looking forward to the debt ceiling, you said the shutdown doesn't have a huge day to day impact, so you can understand why the markets aren't plummeting. are they discounting likelihood of a possibility of a debt ceiling -- debt default that really would have catastrophic consequences? >> i think there is a misunderstanding between wall street and washington on this. there is an understandably

general sense that these crises are always resolved at the last minute and that's probably right. but you'll have a bunch of wall street ceos in town tomorrow, that will go to the white house and talk to the president and go up to the hill and make phone calls. we cannot get close to the october 17th day because interest rates will start going up and markets will go down. there will be pressure there. tea party conservatives don't care what wall street says. i think the small group of moderate republicans and some wall street republicans that still exist, that argument will carry weight that it's dangerous to do this close to the dead limit. that may be the forcing mechanism. but we're talking about a shut down for two weeks that hits confidence any way and we have a economic hit regardless. it would be too bad if we waited until the october 17th date to raise the debt limit and hurt the economy. at the same time, if we were to go into even a technical

default, we could make payments on bonds. if we miss payments on social security and other things, the world views that as a selective default and that will be devastating to the economy. >> ben white, thank you as always. >> up next for all of the focus on republicans, democrats also at the cross roads. we'll get into that next. that talks about protecting, even after eating and drinking. crest pro-health has always done that. it's clinically proven to fight plaque and gingivitis. rinsing with pro-health after brushing can take your oral health to a new level. now that's the new you need. right from the beginning i could really feel it changing something for the better. i know there's been an improvement. my pearly whites, they feel really good. [ male announcer ] go pro. with the brand you can trust, crest pro-health. yeah... [ male announcer ] try campbell's homestyle soup brimming with farm grown veggies. huh, just like yours. huh. [ male announcer ] and roasted white meat chicken.

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the most common side effects are nausea, diarrhea, and headache. some side effects can lead to dehydration, which may cause kidney problems. if your pill isn't giving you the control you need ask your doctor about non-insulin victoza®. it's covered by most health plans. welcome back. we've spent a lot of time focus on the divide of the gop and

impact of the tea party republicans in the shutdown. we're going to turn to a conservative to highlight the beliefs causing this battle. he argues that both the president and liberalism itself are at a kind of cross roads, joining us now is charles kesseler, founder of the clair mont review of books which bills itself as the house journal of reinvigorated conservatism and i am the change barack obama, and future of liberalism out on paperback today. >> thank you, axri, it's a pleasure. >> give us your view. >> well, we live in a very polarized time politically. and in a way, the world war ii and early cold war were a time-out from normal american politics. i mean, i think what we're seeing is what is sort of the

normal level of partisanship long term in american politics. heightened by the fact that liberalism for a long time has been pushing against constitutional limits of government and therefore opening up as government does more things people are either cheered by them or offended by them and so partisanship in a way expands to fill the amount of space government creates for it. >> charles, let's get directly to your book. you write, tempting as it might be to write president obama off, it would be a big mistake, whatever else he may accomplish, his staggering victory on health care reform earned him a future place on mt. rushmore of liberalism. i want to point out, this president is now pushing to maintain sequester level cuts that democrats oppose. not to mention the many liberals that have hit him obama care for not being progressive enough.

is that going too far? >> well, i think even conservatives should concede that obama has been the most consequential liberal president since lyndon johnson. and in certain ways not in every way since fdr. certainly hismean, he talked, an 2008 about fundamentally transforming the united states of america. and i think that was more than rhetoric. he does believe that america ought to be lifted morally and socially and that government can do it. and obama care is the key to his plan to turn this country into a better country. conservatives, of course, will not agree with his diagnosis or prescription. but i think obama care, whether it works or not, in a certain way, as long as it endures, it is going to be a tremendous achievement, counted as a tremendous achievement, by liberals and by liberalism. >> in the book, you speak of the potential end of liberalism,

which is kind of interesting at this moment when it appears that conservatism is far more likely to implode sooner, given the extremism of the tea party, the division the tea party has created within the republican party and the massive demographic problem that the gop has, being an almost all-white party in a nation that is fast getting more diverse, more brown. what say you to that? >> well, i mean, as far as the extremism goes, we should bear in mind that the government shutdown is actually the shutdown of one government or partly the shutdown of one government. the federal government. all the state governments, all county governments are operating and those are the governments that actually protect our life, liberty and property in the most direct and intimate way. this is a partial shutdown of the highest level of government and not of the whole rest of government. so conservatives are far from being anarchists in wanting to see a smaller and more constitutional federal

government, it seems to me. >> and charles, when you talked about the constitution limits, do you mean according supreme court precedent? that would seem to be a place where conservatives come up short. medicare, social security, the modern state and obama care all being held constitutional. >> well, yes and especially obama care was held constitutional in one respect. that is -- but remember, in the opinion of the court, there were five votes for overruling obama care on the contract clause. it's just that the supreme court clefrl changed the subject to the taxing provision. but yes, there will be future constitutional challenges to obama care. there will be a kind of rolling guerrilla warfare in the courts and the famous ipab, or the religious exclusions that conservatives will have a victory down the line. >> well, as you know, under supreme court precedent, there is an obligation of the court to always find a route that is constitutional, if available.

if they find it. it was interesting to see justice roberts join that opinion. i wish we had more time. but appreciate you joining us today. up next, it may be totally baffling, imper acceptable to mere mortals like me and some republicans, but there is a hash tag winning argument made here by krystal. stay tuned for that. okay ladies, whenever you're ready. thank you. thank you. i got this. oh, no, i'll get it! let me get it. uh-uh-uh. i don't want you to pay for this. it's not happening, honey. let her get it. she got her safe driving bonus check from allstate last week. and it's her treat. what about a tip? oh, here's one... get an allstate agent. nice! [ female announcer ] switch today and get two safe driving bonus checks a year for driving safely. only from allstate. call 866-905-6500 now. here we go! hold on man. is that a leak up there? that's a drip. whoo. okay. aah. now that's a leak. that is a leak! and if you don't have allstate renters insurance...

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if the government doing anything at all is just a little socialistic-ish for your tastes -- >> we don't want our government to do anything for us -- >> come to where they have been functioning government-free since 1991.

you'll fly into fully deregulated baladogi airport and find a free market haven where the police, roads and navy are maintained by rational self interest. and libertarian magic dust. >> the markets at work. >> i have co lara. >> what? >> come to somalia. government isn't the solution. >> congratulations, all you rabd loving government in the bathtub obama-hating conservatives, you're on your way to the paradise of your dreams. you have overcome major adversity, including repeated repudiation by the american people of your ideology and everything it stands for. you didn't let those tiny roadblocks stand in your way. here is a small slice of what you have achieved. tax man got you down, no worries. the irs will no longer conduct audits of tax cheats. not only do you not have to worry about paying taxes, no

audits means less tax revenue, less government #winning! and if you hate workers, you know, that class of moochers constantly whining about how they want a living wage and to not have their fingers cut off at work -- takers! well, the government shutdown means federal safety inspectors will take a long overdue hike, allowing business owners to treat workers as the chattel they are. these days, its nanny states starts at birth with free-loading babies suck willing from the government teat. no more, cutting them off. take that, welfare queens and princesses. there are so many capitalistic conservative nuggets of joy in this shutdown. i could go on and on raving about its many benefits and i'm sure the public will love the new and improved america, now with less government. after all, the american people spoke when they elected you to control 10% of one half of one branch of government. this is what people said they wanted when they elected ted cruz and gohmert and mike lee. if you really want a sew mall i

can't style paradise, though, you've still got some work to do. after all, seniors will still be getting their fat government checks and won't be forced to eat cat food the way god intended. and that scourge of the world, obama care, which outrageously helps people purchase health insurance is the law of the land. no worries, though, when you force the government to default on october 17th, there is literally no telling what you can achieve. sure, president obama says he won't negotiate. but if a catastrophic debt default causes a financial armageddon, widespread bank failures, the collapse of the stock market, the devaluinging of the dollar, 20% interest rates and 250% unemployment, i bet we could get him to the negotiating table. no one is that crazy. well, except you, anyway. after all, you love america so much that you're willing to destroy her, rather than see her deinvolve into a disgusting, distoppian future which -- i don't even know if i can say this without throwing up. everyone, i mean,