care act. the supreme court upheld it. i hope mr. boehner and others take their own advice and listen to the american people. i hope they listen to the americans that are now being furloughed and programs being cut because they're not listening to what has already been decided. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. will boehner budge? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. let me start tonight with this. it's interesting that the more this government shut down hurts and is seen hurting, the more you see john bain irout there on the media skillet the less you see of ted cruz.

this is a pathetic example of a politician who's never gotten a positive piece of legislation passed but spends his time sabotaging government. john boehner stands out there on the bridge while this blows out. whose decision was it to put a senate hold on a meeting between the senate and house budget committees? that lack of appropriations bills passed and signed by the president exposed the entire u.s. government to shut down and who was it that demanded as a price for the passage of a continuing resolution the destruction of the affordable care act? ted cruz. the man who's now standing back and watching the government crash in. within the last hour, president obama met with the congressional leaders of both parties at the

white house. howard, let's talk about the setup before tonight. where are we with this speaker of the house? he's got the heat on his back. on his backside. let's be blunt here. he's facing a tremendous torture. you can see it in his face. how long will it take for the moderates in his party to give him enough backing where he can make a move and make a lesser demand on the president, one that he might be able to accept? >> well, chris, we're he an all counting, one by one, republicans are saying, privately first and then publicly, in the house, that they would be willing to vote for a so-called cr, meaning go ahead, fund the government without conditions. right now there may be 16 or 17 of those republicans. that would be enough -- hello, i'm chris hayes.

we are breaking into "hardball" because at this moment, senator harry reid and nancy pelosi are speaking. >> all we want you to do is open the government. and i went through a litany of things we would be happy to talk about or anything else he wanted to talk about. we said we'd be happy to talk about discretionary spending, agriculture, we'll talk about parks, we'll talk about health care, anything that you want to talk about. and he says, no. all i want to do is go to conference on a short-term cr. we have the debt ceiling staring us in the face, and he wants to talk about a short-term cr? i thought that they were concerned about the long-term fiscal affairs of this country. and we said we are too. let's talk about it. my friend john boehner, i repeat, cannot take yes for an answer. >> thank you, mr. leader.

on march 1st, we saw many of you out here after we had a meeting in the oval office with president obama. at that time, speaker boehner and leader mcconnell said that they wanted to proceed on the budget discussion under the regular order. a washington term which means you pass a bill in the house, in the senate, you go to conference. the house and the senate both passed a bill, but the republicans have resisted the regular order. for six months they have avoided going to conference. so now they come up with their suggestion of two, of 986 or 988, which is a figure that our members in the house do not like. think it is far too low, and the republican chairman of the appropriations committee says does not enable government to

provide for the needles of the american people. but nonetheless, having said that, over 100 members of the house, democrats, stood on the steps of the capitol today and made a solid, real, offer to the speaker of the house to accept his number, which they don't like and they don't respect, but for the purpose of opening up government and going to the next step. all we have to do is bring it up, pass it in the house, it comes to the president's desk, government is open. then we go to the table as the leader suggests on the budget. and some of that discussion can be helpful in terms of addressing growth, debt, deficit reduction and how we go forward on lifting the debt ceiling. so we just have to find a way. and we have to find a path that they can go down, but if they keep moving the goal post and won't even accept their own

number, as the leader said, if they don't take yes for an answer, then i can only conclude that they want to shut down government, that they think that has a purpose for them. and we know what that is. they want to overturn the affordable care act that's not going to happen. and frankly, that's not what our constitution had in mind, that if you don't like something you threaten to shut down government, so you don't -- it's not that kind of a system. so in any event, ever optimistic because so much is at stake, i'm hopeful that in the conversation we heard each other and that we will be able to find a place to go as the leader suggests, to the budget table, six months after we were supposed to, in order to discuss the budget that can be helpful. because the next, the next challenge is lifting the debt

ceiling. it was a worth while meeting. i'm glad it was held, we had, shall we say, some candid discussion, wouldn't you say, mr. leader? and we won't go into that. >> one of the things i was very, i felt very happy i was there, the president of the united states was very, very strong, strong, strong. this has never happened before. they can mamake all the historical analysis that they want, this has never happened before where a political party would be willing to take the country to the brink of financial disaster and say we're not going to allow us to pay our bills. the president said he will not stand for that. and we were, we said, we would be happy to work, i said happy to work with you, mr. speaker on a way out of this, but we are where we are. we're not going, we're through playing these little games on

all, it's all focused on obama care. that's all it's about. and as i've said before and i'll tell each of you here tonight, they did the same thing to social security. they did the same thing to medicare, and they're trying to do the same thing to obama care. obama care is another social security. it's another medicare program. it's something that is signature to this administration, and nancy pelosi and harry reid worked hard to get it done, we're happy it's done. the one thing we made very clear in that meeting, we are locked in tight on obama care. >> when is the next time you're going to meet? >> in that hour, you pointed an hour. what is the sense, how real is the danger that the country might default? >> i believe based on what we have seen, the performance of the tea party driven, cruz led house now, no longer in the

senate. it's now in the house, i think that it looks like these people are headed where they want to go. michelle bachman said finally, finally we're where we wanted to be. we've closed down the government. she's not alone. >> let me just say this about the meeting. and that is to follow. i think there are certain principles or attitudes that we should have. now i'm not saying that we agreed to this in the meeting, but i'm just saying for the good of the order and the confidence of the american people, we should take the debt ceiling debate off the table? the united states of america will always honor the full faith and credit of our country. and no president should be held hostage to that for a social or other agenda. so let's just take that off the

table. because it's really dangerous. i mean, closing the government is bad, the combination of that and not lifting the debt ceiling is beyond cataclysmic. so let's, we have to think about what we're doing now and what the president is doing. let's take that off the table. secondly, secondly, every bill that ever passes in the congress is subject to another bill passing in the congress to amend it. and so, if they don't like certain aspects of the affordable care act, they have every opportunity in the majority, especially, to bring anything to the floor to make whatever changes they want. but that should not be something that is a threat to whether government is open or the full faith and credit. so take the lifting of the debt ceiling off the table, recognize

that any bill that has passed and enacted into law can be changed under the regular order. but don't confuse the two. >> did the speaker say why he wouldn't permit a clean cr? >> i won't go into, i don't know why they haven't accepted their own number. we stood on the steps in the capitol of 100 members, as i said, with the support of the other members of the caucus, to say we're making a firm offer to the speaker, as i have done to him privately over and over again, that we will accept the 988. you know that our members do not like the 988. most of them have dug in their heels to say they would never support the 988. but to open the government, that is a luxury we can't decide on the side of the democrats or the republicans. so we're willing to compromise to accept their number. they had two things, 988 and

overturn obama care. this isn't going to happen. we're willing to accept this. they shouldn't move the goal post. >> are you going to meet again? >> how long do you expect this shut down to continue now after this meeting? >> house leader nancy pelosi and har harry reid. they had a bipartisan meeting with the president at the white house. before nancy pelosi and harry reid addressed the press, john boehner came out and said this. >> at times like this, people expect us to find a way to resolve our differences. the president reiterated one more time that he will not negotiate. we've got divided government. democrats control the white house and the senate. republicans control the house. we sent four different proposals

over to our democrat colleagues in the senate. they rejected all of them. we've asked to have a conference, to sit down and try to resolve our differences. they will not negotiate. we had a nice conversation, a polite conversation, but at some point, we've got to allow the process that our founders gave us to work out. we've appointed conferees on the house side to sit down and work with our senate colleagues. it's time for them to appoint conferees. all we're asking for is a discussion and fairness for the american people under obama care. i would hope that the president and my democrat colleagues in the senate would listen to the american people and sit down and have a serious discussion about resolving these differences. >> that's john boehner moments ago, reiterating his two twin demands, na the government delay the implement station of a key

aspect of obama care. he wants the senate to name some senators to sit down with house members to talk about hammering out the differences between the house and senate on a six-week continuing resolution. in other words, what he's saying between the lines is he wants the government to stay closed for the next few day, at least probably for the next few weeks. we are getting indications the president may speak about the meeting that just happened as well. >> that's certainly a possibility, chris. we are waiting to hear confirmation about that from the white house. but this meeting was sort of what we expected. president obama said i wasn't going to negotiate going into the meeting. that is what happened. he reiterated his stance, dug in his heels. called on congressional leaders to reopen the government and increase the debt limit without any strings attached. we should also say during an

interview earlier today, president obama said i will negotiate with you on some of these other issues, but once we reopen the government, once we increase the debt limit, let's talk about their during a larger budget negotiation. sounds like he also made that point during this meeting. now republican, as you just harold, continued to dig in their heels on this issue of trying to defund orb delay president obama's signature achievabilit achievabili achievement. the majority of americans disagree with republicans' handling of this situation. and republicans continue to be divided chris. in all of my conversation, there is a lot of division amongst the republican party about whether this is the right strategy. what is becoming more of a possibility is that you will see members of congress deal with both reopening the government and the debt limit in one larger package.

because, look, if they were to go over the debt limit, allow america to default on its loans, that could be economically catastrophic. that's a point they have been making. jack lew was in that meeting, making that point, i am told, to those congressional leaders. what does that mean? it means that the government could continue to stay closed for quite some time. and as you know, with 800,000 workers furloughed, the public frustration continues to mount. >> the report beiing that i've everywhere, any deal that's going to get done would be a deal that reopens the government and raises the debt ceiling, but there's two week, i think a two-week shut down is looking more and more likely. in the interview you referenced, the president said he was exasperated by what he called the unnecessary shut down. take a listen. >> we have a situation right now

where if john boehner, the speaker of the house puts a bill on the floor to reopen the government at current funding levels, so that we can then negotiate on a real budget that allows us to stop governing from crisis to crisis, it would pass. the only thing that's stopping it is that john boehner right now has not been willing to say no to a faction of the republican party that are willing to burn the house down because of an obsession over my health care initiative. i am exasperated with the idea that unless i say that 20 million people, you can't have health insurance, these folks will not reopen the government. that is irresponsible. >> and howard, we are where we are. it doesn't seem like a lot of movement forward came out of that meeting. >> well, i was impressed initially, at the fact that it

was about an hour and a half long. so i figured they'd gotten past the swearing at each other part. >> lot of swears, a lot of pent th up swears. >> to me, the most significant thing i heard from the driveway interviews that we just heard outside the west wing is harry reid saying i was proud to be there. i was glad i was there, because the president of the united states was very strong, strong, strong. >> three times. >> three times. and what that means is, that the president is basically here, i think, trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube of the way thing went down after, during the fiscal cliff. >> that's right. >> because there he had a situation where there was a threat of debt ceiling crisis that resulted in the downgrading of treasury bonds, a near catastrophe that did result in a deal, that did cut spending.

that's what the sequester is. so the republicans, the teenage mutant republicans, if you will, having had this sort of permissive parenting of the fiscal cliff situation are saying well, it worked once, why not do it again. >> that's right. >> and the president is sagan with harry reid strongly -- because harry reid hated what happened during the fiscal cliff as did many democrats. they're saying mr. president, you've got to stand firm this time. you've goat to be the adult. you've got to be the dad. you've got to get these obstreperous kid does go to regular order as nancy pelosi calls it. they don't want to do it. they like what happened to sequester. they decided to like it. they're willing to stand at the brink with the president. you have a dangerous situation where you had in the white house tonight, arguably the six adults, the people who are supposed to be the adults here.

the president, the prvice president, you don't have any tea party people in there. if they're getting all chesty with each other. if the president is determined to try to get the tea party under control somehow, even if the republicans can't, it's a very dangerous situation. >> well, now it's interesting you bring that up. because here is what i found fascinating in the past 36 hours. up till the shutting down of the government at the beginning of the week, you had basically the entirety of the democrat establishment saying don't do this, this is crazy. john boehner said, we've got john boehner saying t charles kraut haumer called it the suicide caucus. what happened was about 30 to 80 house republican caucus members along with ted cruz and jim

dement demented, it is now the case that they are all just all in on this. i mean, isn't that whatever fissures you saw are starting to dissolve, as far as i can tell, everyone is falling in line. all those folks, the entire right wing noise machine, all are behind this strategy. >> yeah. we've been all day at the huffington post counting the number of house republicans who are willing to vote for a so-called clean cr, pan we're up to 20, but it's a difference between sort of what they're saying in the corridors and actually going in there and standing up to ted cruz and the tea party. and it's not clear that three were willing to do it. if john boehner came out of that thing looking like he'd been through the washing machine because he's realizing that he has no power whatsoever. and what is going to happen, as you were saying just before and as kristen welker was saying is that the government shut down now is going to bleed right into

the debt ceiling thing. the government is going to stay in its shut down mode right up until the deadline mode of october 17th. and we're going to have this huge stare down between these two dug-in positions. and it's a, i can't, i can't do anything other than to say that it's both outrageous and sad that it's kind of come to this. the whole notion of regular order that nancy pelosi in a quaint way mentioned tonight is sadly ludicrous. >> i want to go to casey hunt on capitol hill, but i want to explain something here. one of the things that's developing here right now is there's lots of budget terminology that is pinging back and forth. regular order means the regular budgity process as essentially ushered in the 1970s. and part of that regular order is that the house and the senate

each pass a budget. and, then, you know, this is schoolhouse rock, to get the budget out, to hammer out the differences they appoint conferees who go into conference committee and they hammer out the differences. for a year, the house was mad at the senate for not passing a budget. they didn't pass one because they didn't want to be attached to a document they knew was going to immediately die in the house. they said you know what, you're right. and six months a the democratic senate passed a budget. and john boehner will not allow the house to send conferees. so for six months the demand has been you must appoint conferees. on monday night, john boehner decided to say we're going to appoint conferees to work out the difference on this continuing resolution. >> they were trying to sound reasonable at the very moment they were unreasonable. that was their procedural fig

leaf. you can't graft seeming calm statesmanship onto this. >> in the middle of a burning building. kids with cancer are being turned away from trials. we should go through the big process of sitting in a. roo, hammering out our differences. that's fort normal budget. not when the government's in crisis. >> yeah. we'll do all that stuff, but not when you have a gun to our hiea. and the republicans are saying we had a gun to your head the other year and it worked. as a matter of fact, the republicans have been planning, the tea party people from the very beginning have been planning to use the debt ceiling as their forcing mechanism.

they've said it over and over and over again. if you look at any website on the debt, it's the debt clock, the debt ceiling, all that, they view that as the proper, responsible thing to do. they are talking past each other. the tea party people think they are being responsible. >> casey, one of the things that howard's reporteres over at the huffington post have been dos is tallying who on the republican side has said they'd come out and vote for a clean cr, and there's been their talking point saying if join boehner were to bring a so called clean cr, that is fund the government for the next six weeks at the levels that are currently in place in sequester, that would pace. is that the sense you get? >> reporter: there's sternly a growing faction of moderates in the republican party who view this as sort of a growing problem for them. and the longer that this shut down continues the worse it's

going to get for them. you have to remember that while these very conservative districts that send these tea party members to the house may be the most vocal contingent right now, the control of the majority. house actually hinges on people like those members of congress who are coming out and saying we need to dial this back. i might consider voting for a clean cr. they represent districts where they're not more afraid of a tea party challenger than they are of the democrat that they're going to face in the general election, and they're more likely to get thrown out based on voter anger. that is a dynamic to watch over the course of the next couple weeks. at this point, some of the discussion that you were having about lumping this together is starting to look more and more likely. we're not getting any indications necessarily that congress is going to work even through the weekend. the back and forth here has sort of become almost per funtry. republicans are trying to set

trap after trap. they are passing bills that are potentially politically difficult for them. there's been hubbub over the world war ii memorial that's gotten political attraction, but at the end of the day, nothing major is moving. so as we creep closer and closer to this deadline, it's at some point going to be inevitable that you have to deal with the debt ceiling and funding the government at the same time. >> yeah. october 17 is the day the treasury the statutory debt ceiling runs out. you've got peter king from new york, michael grim, the only republican member in the new york city delegation. how big is that group? are they organized? and have they gone quiet? because i feel like two or three days ago, anyone near a microphone or tape recorder on

tap kol hill was saying ted cruz is a maniac, this is lemmings with suicide vests. i vants been hearing as much of that today as people have decided they're in the bunker together or they either hang to the or surely they'll hang separately. >> reporter: when you saw the moment that the moderates rose up as high as we've seep them so far was during that procedural motion late on monday night. congressman peter king was saying he had a number of people who were going to vote with him. and i talked to him after that because it failed spectacular lay. he was essentially on his own. what he said was boehner had asked for personal favors from all those people and said essentially, trust me. and peter king described that as saying trust me, it will all work out in the end. so to a certain extent, you also have to think in the broader context of this with house

speaker john boehner, the position that he's in. he took the most heat after he was willing to cut a deal that many of these right wing republicans saw as unacceptable. so for him to come out of a meeting like this and say hey, i did negotiate with the president and in fact we decided -- >> unobtainable. >> reporter: it's not possible for him. and to talk for an hour and a half and say nothing but what you've said before would be pretty remarkable. >> do we think we're going to see a lot of the president day in, day out giving his message if in fact this rolls on for another two weeks? >> i think that's exactly what we're going to see. president obama is going to speak at an area construction company where he will talk about the economic impact on that construction company. other companies, because of this shut down and of course if there is a default, he'll basically

take on this tactic that we've seen him take on in the past, which is to try to build up public support for his position. it has worked in the past, during the payroll tax cut fight for example. so i certainly think that will be part of what we'll see moving forward. i was talking to one democratic strategist earlier today who said look, if your opponents are tearing themselves apart, don't get in the way. take a step back and let them go. i think that is going to be one of the gorning principles, i think they believe smuchs they can add to the public pressure and stay out of the way the better chances they will see in this coming to an end. and more importantly to see that the government doesn't default on its loans. there is a school of thought that this government shut down allows speaker boehner to make the argument in the final analysis to his conference that he has fought the good fight and

h now it's time to move forward. >> i was thinking this shut down allows you to have the fight earlier, to see how the public actually reacts in reality as opposed to the abstract modeling they're doing of the public mind. thank you kristin welker, casey hunt and howard fineman. chris matthews and "hardball" picks things up when our coverage continues.

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we're back for the second

day in a row veterans stormed through barriers in washington. they were helped by republican members of congress. hundreds of veterans had arrived on honor flights for a previously scheduled visit to the memorial but found it closed due to the government shut down. a shut down caused by the i have republican members of congress who paraded them through the lines today. among them, michelle bachman and louie goe mert. this was the same who shut down the government. this was a sideshow in their larger show of the government shut down. they're releasing one hostage at a time for credit. joining me is tammy duckworth from illinois. i am absolutely stunned at the chutzpah of people who would shut down the government as a tactic and then try to open up a piece of the government they

shut down to try to get credit as patriots. >> oh, absolutely. and, then, you know, further, they introduce a bill that cuts $6 billion of funding for the department of veterans affairs last night and claimed they were helping veterans. these people will stop at nothing. veterans are not to be used as pawns. >> how do you make them pay the price of shutting down the veterans administration and everything else in the first place yesterday. >> i've been out there. and one of the things i want to make sure people understand is that the veterans bill last night, you know, was a non-starter. we don't pass a budget piecemeal. we don't have a veteran do you want us to pay for you but not allow your grand baby to go to head start? we need a clean cr. to use veterans, this is political theater and it's not acceptable. my dad was a world war ii veteran. and he'd be shaking his head

right now if he saw what was happening. >> the whole country's shut down by this. the whole government now is vulnerable. you can't go to yosemite, you can't go anywhere. and all kinds of really life and death issues are up in the air right now. we're hearing reports that our country may be in danger by this shutting down. and then from the people who have done it to win their fight against the president's health care bill, they're strutting around, pretending they're the caretakers of the people. >> that's right. this fits into the narrative that the republicans are trying to promote now, because they know they're on the defensive, just as they were back in the 1990s when they got most of the blame from the public for that shut down. same thing is happening now. so here they arrive, and priebus, part of the committee, riding to the rescue because

those darn democrats are closing down the government. that's their rhetoric they're promoting. i don't think anybody's buying it. but it shows a rag-tag effort. this wasn't planned. this was reflexive. but they're trying to push the notion that the democrats are at fault. >> it's like they believe in pt barnum, a sucker's born every day. talk about crazy performance, priebus pledged that the republican national committee will pay for the monument. >> i come here to announce that the republican national committee has put aside enough money to hire five security personnel, full time, to keep the world war ii memorial open. >> how can you lose to such lightweights as this guy?

political lightweights? puppetoons. it was a tactic used to bring down the government. and the only way that obama could stop it is to give up his major achievement in history, which no one is stupid enough to brief he would do. >> my constituents like a lot of the parts of the affordable care act. now there are problems with it. but they like that their pre-exists conditions are covered. and these are two separate things. if you have problems with the health care bill, let's talk about that, but let's don't shut down government over it. these veterans that they're pretending to help today, their access to their pensions is going to be limited after october 15th. there's going to be cuts in prosthetic research for veterans. the national cemetery administration is not going to be able to lay our heroes to rest at the same rate that think

were. and michele bachmann who was there today actually said shut down is exactly what we wanted. we got what we wanted. a good day for the tea party is when government is having a bad day. >> who said this? >> michelle bachman. michelle bachman was the one who said she got exactly what shy wanted was a shut down. >> didn't she know she was supposed to be shedding crocodile tears? wasn't that part of the act? that she was as hurt as everyone else was? >> they are gleeful about shutting down government. but i'm sure when they were with the veterans they made it seem that it was everybody else's fault but their own. we owe our veterans a whole lot more than showmanship. we need to make sure that we do fund the va, that we get them processed. >> a spoiler alert, isn't it the responsibility to make the

government work? aren't they responsible to make the government perform, not to die? >> that's right. and as a vietnam veteran i salute tammy duckworth for her service. this reminds me during the reagan years, the same day he cut funds to services for the elderly was pictured visiting a nursing home. visuals mean a lot as far as public relations goes, and that's what republicans are doing here. i really feel offended by. they're showing the visuals of the world war ii memorial. and they're visiting veterans as ms. duckworth pointed out, they're trying to cut veterans' benefits. >> >> i remember talking to reagan one time. tip says tell them i'm fighting for their budget. it's an honor to have you on.

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standing for liberty and if standing for the constitution making you a whacko bird, then i am a very, very proud whacko bird. >> and the whacko bird phrase comes back to john mccain when he used it to describe some of the louder members of the republican party.

mccain apologized but nevertheless it's been worn as a an honor. a band of republicans standing their ground, and it wresting control. you're great at satire, but i don't know how you beat the reality here. let's start with michele bachmann had talked about suspected anti-american members of congress. she told the world net daily that the reason president obama and democrats won't cave in on affordable care is they can't wait to get americans addicted to the crack cocaine of dependency on more government health care. you know, she packs a lot of crap into one sentence, i tell you. crack cocaine. now there's a little ethnic

reference for you. it's amazing how much the dog whistle goes past some people. crack cocaine, an interesting drug of choice for her to apply to the supporters of president obama. >> particularly interesting since bill o'reilly made the same quip just nights before. it's easy to dismiss michelle bachman because of all the crazy stuff she says but if you look at all the wings of the republican party right now are firmly attached to the whacko bird and ted cruz is essentially running this thing. i'm calling it the lifeboat strategy. they decide which pieces of government they should rescue, and guess what. it's not going to be anybody who regulates business. but we'll make sure the veterans and troops are taken care of. >> she's on her way out of

politics. they don't really believe in government, certainly not as a career or a goal in life. these people, these birthers, a lot of them are birthers in this group. the people that won't even admit the president was legitimately elected. there seem does be a en ethnic piece in this. he's from africa,'s not really one of us. >> i know they don't like obama care, but this isn't just about getting rid of a law they don't like. i think they want to erase the obama presidency from history, go from 43 to 45, like there's no j street in washington. they can't do that if this law becomes an enduring part of our domestic policy history. i think that's a piece of this here. >> it's removing the monument. let's take a look at steve king.

he's one identified as one of the whacko birds. he was dismissing the concerns about what would happen if the united states defaulted on its debt. that's the important question right now. debt. he said he took his cues from constituents, he said. let's listen to this. >> let me get this straight, you don't believe we would go into default, you believe that tim geithner is lying, the president is lying, everybody is wrong, everybody in the country is worrying about this. but you have some superior knowledge, what basis do you get that from -- >> i do have superior knowledge, thank you for recognizing it. >> where do you get it from? >> the united states citizens, who will elect the next president of the united states. >> so you're polling in your district to decide if the united states goes into default -- >> i have an independent judgment, it comes from a long experience of dealing politically and in business and

raising a family and being an american citizen, just like the independent judgment of my constituents. >> dana, do you trust in the international economists, he said i don't trust the national economists, they're foreigners. i said do you trust the domestic economists? he said no, i said how? he said i know what i'm talking about, i raised a family. and i do listen to those who understand it. like scientists, i go to a dentist because he knows how to do that. i go to get my car fixed by guys who do that. what is this new same brush wisdom that sort of builds these guys egos up so they can talk about something they don't know. >> on his positive side, he didn't use the phrase

"cantoloupes" like he did when referencing illegal immigrants. they seem to think -- ted cruz said i am here speaking on the floor of the senate for 300 million americans. no, you're not doing anything close to that, not even half the americans, so they're hearing their own echo chamber, allowing themselves to believe they're speaking for everybody. >> don't you think they deep down know what can be true, that we face the end of our credibility as a debtor country, that you could always borrow or lend the united states government money, and treasury bonds, no matter how much you didn't like it you could always get your money in interest. now, once that doesn't happen, aren't they afraid that it will change our currency in the world, in terms of the dollar

itself. >> well, you would think they would hope that in the leading districts, they don't really care about national economics at all. the only thing they're concerned about is not getting a primary challenge. and that means that whatever this president says it is wrong, and he is opposed to it. >> so the one and only trip to europe, they're 70 years old, they had to pay 500 bucks for a coke because the dollar is worthless. susan i think it must shift from the right, angry people, who do want to go to the washington memorial and love this country, even if it is run by a liberal preside president, they love the country. >> i hope so. the thing that is most disturbing that we're seeing right now is there is very little sense on the hill that they're there for something bigger than themselves. you know this of course, your book with "tip and the gipper," when kennedy last negotiated with the immigration bill, the

first thing he did was have everybody in the room, the democrats and republicans, and talk about how people came to america. it was a very profound moment, it made them all realize they were there for something bigger. that is gone on the hill. there is no sense of the responsibility to the group. to the responsibility of the institution of congress or the responsibility of anyone except the constituents they talk to at town hall meetings. >> you know, i just remember that tip and reagan had had a wonderful meeting about the grain embargo, and tip said you have to think about the whole country, this is the soviet union, you know, they really tried to talk about things together, and get something done for the country. you're too nice to live in these times. and we'll be right back after this. build character through quality. and earn the right to be called a classic. the lands' end no iron dress shirt.

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let me finish tonight with this, it takes a lot of chutzpah

for the hostage taker to decide to release a few of his hostages, and that is what congress says, they would shut down so they can keep shutting down the rest of it and still get the payment they demanded. so they pose this picture of the veterans, down at the washington mall, defending the fact they were the very people that were continuing to hold the government hostage for awarding the obama care. any veteran who believes it was the democrats who came up with the shutdown has not been reading the newspapers. and something tells me that veterans are the very best of the newspapers, because they know firsthand the consequences of what politics can do to your life and do to your country. last night i had the