built toward what a fai and just. that's what the book is all about. that's what life is all about. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. have a great weekend. "hardball" starts right now. bouncing boehner. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews up in boston. let me start tonight with this. this weekends with john boehner being dribbled along the court like a basketball. he hits the floor again because some right winger yells something nasty. why is this guy so unable to do what will make him a profile? isn't there better ways to end your career than being bounced around by people you don't respect? aren't there? i have faith in this country. darn it, i have faith in

politics. i believe democracy works. i believe good people can come to agreement and stop taking cheap, stupid shots at each other. okay, didn't work once. it took us to civil war. but that was about a real disagreement. slavery. it was regional, it was economic, it was historical. it was, after all we came to know, moral. this is a over a law the congress passed, that the supreme court of the united states declared constitutional. it's isn't a sign of weakness for boehner to say when he gets up in the morning we're going back to the original system? sorry crazies, we're going to go back to the law and move on. jonathan martin, you're chuckling, but it's so sad. it's so sad because all he has to do is say regular order, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to do what we've always done. enforce a law we wrote and the president signed. >> and he would probably invite a challenge to his speakership

if he was to do that. i think the more likely scenario, chris, at this point given we're a few days into the shutdown and the debt ceiling is looming here in a matter of a couple of weeks is that speaker boehner will try to merge the debt ceiling vote with the vote to keep the government -- or get the government to reopen. and then try to extract some kind of a sweetener from the democrats so he has some cover to sell it to his members. and then bring up one vote. it's a lot easier for boehner to make his members take one vote on this than it is to do two separate votes on both the cr to get the government back open and also to raise the debt ceiling. >> jonathan, that's good news. i mean, it sounds to me like he understands the stakes. that he understands the president himself will not buckle to a short-term deal on the cr and then have to face another compromise on the debt.

i think it's good. jonathan capehart, i'm going to call you mr. martin and mr. capehart to keep things straight. mr. capehart, doesn't it seem he could break with the crazies. i mean the 30 or 40 bench out there that wants to say no just because they hate obama. >> well, i mean, i hope you're right. i hope your sense of optimism turns out to be right. but as we've seen time and time again, that sort of vocal minority within speaker boehner's majority, never seems to be satisfied. it seems every time he tries to do something that is the right thing to do for the country, they slap him back. and what's unfortunate is that he buckles to them. so i'll be -- i will be curious to see -- >> have you figured out why? have you figured out why? if he's got people on his side, why does he buckle to 30?

>> i don't understand it. i really don't. i mean our colleague here dana milbank has taken to calling him spokesman because he's following his caucus instead of leading them. and i don't mean -- actually, i do mean to compare speaker boehner to speaker pelosi, but if the shoes were flipped and this was speaker pelosi's house, there's no way she would have a vocal minority in her majority telling her what to do. >> let me bring it back to jonathan martin. go ahead, jonathan. >> i was going to say i don't think i'm being -- i'm not trying to suggest that the conservative hardliners in the house would be pleased with one vote on to open the cr back up and raise the debt ceiling. i think it would make them less angry. there's no good options for boehner given his own politics right now. i do think rolling two tough

votes into one and hoping to get some type of a face-saving measure, be that the medical device tax or something to throw in there and schedule one vote on the house floor is probably the better of some bad scenarios to the speaker. >> sounds right to me too. that one. although it does get to the body of the health care bill. in an interview with nbc's casey hunt today, ted cruz levied a wild accusation. let's listen. >> the position of the democrats is remarkable. they want 100%. that's why we're facing this shutdown. because their position is extreme. >> i don't know what to make of that. take a listen to this twisted logic when he then was specifically asked about a default. >> no rational person supports a default. we should never default on the debt. the democrats want government by crisis. they want shutdowns.

this is harry reid's shutdown because he thinks it benefits democrats politically. and they want to threaten a default to scare people. it's how we've gotten a $17 trillion national debt. they believe it furthers their partisan interest to scare the american people. under no circumstances should we default on our debt. and it is irresponsible of president obama and harry reid to suggest otherwise. >> jonathan martin, i'm pretty good at following people when they talk. i mean, i can't follow that. he's saying under no circumstances he implies i support a default. then he says the other side is using scare tactics. yet he's holding them to the threat he will default. is there any sense to that? yao got to define this objectively. where's the objective statement there you can track? >> well, he's trying to place the blame on what's happening and what may happen in the future on the democrats. he's fighting from a defensive posture because he's trying to

push back on this notion that he and he alone is responsible for the fact that the government is shut down. so he and a lot of this colleagues are trying to spin this so put the shoe on senator reid and president obama. where this really gets interesting, though, is more the debt ceiling. it's one thing for ted cruz to have the shutdown on their hands. nobody wants a debt ceiling collapse on their hands. >> can you report now or analyze the fact he seems to be responding in that interview for the first time there to the heat the republican establishment is putting on the politicians here. i mean the house republicans especially, but both of them that they cannot bring down our american economy and call themselves americans. there he is for the first time pushing back against default. whereas before, that's the thing

he wanted to put the obama care stuff right on. the debt ceiling, targeted it. >> that's a good point. >> so i think he's moved back a bit according to your piece on the front page is what i'm talking about. >> look, i think he is trying to suggest to republicans there, too, you might not like me or my tactics, but i don't want to see the country default either. >> that's also a message to the more party. >> cruz also seems incapable of answering any question unless he can use it to attack obama and the democrats. here's an exchange against casey hunt again when she asked him about supporting a house bill out there to provide back pay to government employees. so the people on furlough right now not getting paid will get paid by the end of the year perhaps. here he is not answering the question. >> look, i think the house is

working cooperatively to find a compromise. it's doing it over and over and over again. the people who are missing, who are awol are the senate democrats. >> should they retroactively be paid or not? >> but the democrats are refusing to compromise -- >> but would you do it? >> just today we saw the democrats say again that the only position they'll take is give us 100% of what we want. we want everything or the government stays shut down. >> yes or no do you support retroactive back pay? >> i support the house working to fund the government and at the same time to prevent the enormous harms obama care is inflicting on americans. >> is this a yes or no or maybe? >> i'm not answering your question. >> what i am saying is i support efforts to resolve this matter that fund the government and that prevent the enormous harms obama care has inflicted on millions of americans. >> you know, jonathan capehart,

he takes trefuses to answer the central question to answer. how are you going to vote? how do you behave as a senator? he doesn't seem to want to be one because that requires making decisions about things you want done. in this case paying back pay or not. he just wants to be someone causing trouble. that seems to be his legitimative goal to go to the crowd and get people applauding him for being a troublemaker. a la joe mccarthy. the same performance artist. >> you know, chris, in the clip you just showed and in the other one in his response about default, he's pushing back against the notion both within his party both out in the land but within the halls of congress that he is the one to blame for all of this. for bringing republicans into this very narrow corner.

that they desperately want to get out of. and they can't. and so he's blaming democrats. >> excuse me, jonathan. let me ask you an objective question. is he or is he not responsible for this hell that's going on? >> oh, absolutely. are about trying to shift the blame from themselves onto other people, but we all know what he's doing. we all know what he's about. it would be great, chris, if he spent more time trying to find a solution than standing in front of cameras hurling blame at other people. >> mr. martin, the same question to you. i'll phrase it differently for the "a" section. is he perceived to be in the republican caucus the cause of this shutdown a? >> there's no question about it. i have a story in today's paper

about the fact there is widespread dismay among a lot of what used to be called regular republicans, the sort of main line folks in the party who are no fans of obama care, but who recognize the fact that with a democratic president and controlled senate, defunding the law entirely was a non-starter and would have preferred something more pragmatic here. and we're now at a point where the government has shut down. instead of talking about the flaws in this new law, the focus entirely is on the fact that the government is shut down. so yes, at the luncheon on wednesday, that the republican senators have, he was castigated left and right by his fellow colleagues. and by the way, not just by some of the better known senators who were often on tv. by a lot of mild mannered back bench type senators who don't often point fingers. they've had it with him.

what they're really angry about is when they ask him what his solution is, what's the end game, he doesn't have an answer. >> and the same goes -- >> it needed. i'm sorry, we've got to shut it off, but i've got to tell you something. i'm impressed with casey hunt. she asked him four times. sometimes you have to do that. it's difficult as a journalist to push in so that everybody listening to the tape and watching the performance of the interviewee that they don't want to answer the question. and that was very clear there. congratulations to casey for objective questions with no answers. jonathan martin, great pieces in the times these days. and jonathan capehart with "the washington post." coming up, what is this shutdown fight about? an attempt by republicans to make an end run around democracy? they refuse to accept that president obama was elected before he -- when he promised to do it and re-elected after he did it. also, remember that caught on tape moment of kentucky's two republican senators calculating the best way to spin shutting down the government over the

affordable care act? well, kentucky's democratic governor says opponents should get over it. obama care is going to help poor people. steve beshear joins us next. and why would anyone ask ted cruz to campaign for him? it just happened near washington, d.c. finally sleeping on the job. here's congressman holden. maybe he heard enough from texas birther louie gohmert. i don't blame him a bit. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ tires screech ] ♪ [ male announcer ] 1.21 gigawatts. today, that's easy. ge is revolutionizing power. supercharging turbines with advanced hardware and innovative software. using data predictively to help power entire cities. so the turbines of today... will power us all... into the future. ♪

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leading the secret service on a high speed chase to the capitol. she was stopped at the foot of the capitol, but she jammed the car into reverse and took off again as police opened fire. another chased her around the capitol ended in a car crash. police shot at her and she died a short time later. what a tragedy. i'm not happy. sales go down, i'm not happy. merch comes back, i'm not happy. use ups. they make returns easy. unhappy customer becomes happy customer. then, repeat customer. easy returns, i'm happy. repeat customers, i'm happy. sales go up, i'm happy. i ordered another pair. i'm happy. (both) i'm happy. i'm happy. happy. happy. happy. happy. happy happy. i love logistics.

welcome back to "hardball." if there's one quote that explains the mess we're in, it would be this from an anonymous aide to mike lee. quote, the minority of the minority of the senate gop is going to run things until our leadership gets some backbone. wow. and right now a tiny fraction of the minority party, that's the republicans, is tearing apart the u.s. government and threatening the economic security of the country in a dilutional quest to upend a law they don't like. "the new york times" thomas freeman captured this weekend when he urged president obama for the sake of democracy not to give into them. quote, what is at stake in this

government shutdown forced by a radical tea party minority is nothing less than the principle upon which our democracy is based. the majority rule. when extremists feel insulated from playing by the traditional rules that they're insulated if we do not defend those rules namely majority rule and if you don't like a policy passed by congress signed by the president and affirmed by the supreme court, then you have to go out and win an election to overturn it. you can't just put a fiscal gun to the country's head. then our democracy is in peril. well said. david corn from mother jones magazine and cynthia tucker visiting professor at the university of georgia. by the way, tea party republicans say this all comes down to a need to compromise. let's get together and find a middle ground. let's watch their logic here. in other words, we're going to kill the thing you did legally, constitutional, whatever and we want you to happily agree to kill half of it.

i think king solomon pointed out about that. but here he is. >> we started out with a position that we don't want any obama care. that is what we truly believe. we think it's bad for the country. president wants all of it, 100%. i would think a compromise would be both sides come off their position some. >> the house republicans have acted reasonably and responsibly, the government should be funded and the american people should get relief from obama care. we have repeatedly made reasonable and responsible compromises. >> i think it is indefensible that president obama and harry reid have forced a government shutdown. the reason we have a government shutdown is because they're refusing to compromise, they're refusing to negotiate. >> let me go to david corn. is there a new acting school in washington? i mean, seriously. this is the method acting. how do you convince yourself, even, that a law that's been passed, upheld by the supreme court and three years old, you

have a right to destroy it or slice it in half because why? you remember the dictators, i'm not naming particulars, it's been what mine is mine and what's yours is negotiable. >> it strikes me as a little of invasion of the body snatchers. they're reading from the same script. they think if they sound reasonable, the public won't think they are unreasonable and are having a tantrum over a law that was confirmed by a conservative-led supreme court. that's what it boils down too. and we're going to see at the end of the day whether barack obama is going to, you know, keep to the position he's had. you know, two years ago in the 2011 debt ceiling fight, he did negotiate, he did yield to get what he thought was the best deal possible to prevent the economy from going over a cliff, being pushed over a cliff by the

republicans. >> and what did he teach us by doing that? >> he resolved to himself he wouldn't let this happen again. and so we're going to see who's right at the end of the day. >> i'm looking at the face of ted cruz, cynthia. i'm looking at that face. he's either an actor or he's somehow -- he always has that sad eyed look like i've been let down by my mommy and daddy or my country. or it's the sad look of moral indignation. another sign of the kidictorial mind. he's been screwed, if you will, in this. because a bill was agreed to and a president re-elected on it somehow hurt his sensibilities. what do you think of this guy? >> i think ted cruz was promoted and elected to office by a faction of the republican party,

that small minority, that tea party faction. and he is beholden to them and to himself. remember, ted cruz is out for ted cruz more than anybody else. and he believes the best way. he's ambitious. he wants to be president. the best way he can to make a name for himself is to continue to promote the crazy ideas of the tea party faction that put him in office in the first place. never mind if it brings down the country. never mind for that matter, if it threatens the whole global economy. ted cruz is all about ted cruz. >> let me go here now. somehow many republicans say they think they're winning here, like him, despite all the polls show americans blame the republicans for the shutdown. and all the fighting going on right now. phil gingrey said quote, there's

some pain and suffering but i don't think that compares one bit to the pain and suffering of obama care. he's michele bachmann on fox this week. let's watch her in action. >> i think we will continue to hold on. ultimately the republicans are the conservatives that are going to work together to make sure that we can push back obama care. we're really very energized today. we're strong. this is about the happiest i've seen members in a long time. because we see that we're starting to win this dialogue on a national level. >> what do you make -- you're laughing. what is this? it's like a subjective therapy they're going through. if we fight this law, we're going to somehow become stronger people and that's made it worth it to the country? >> remember, michele bachmann thought she was going to end up as president. so what she thinks about reality doesn't have much bearing upon reality. you know, i recently read a book

about this guy called tip o'neill and ronald reagan. >> i know it well. >> you know it well. one of the things that struck me was they had some major league fights, some battles back in those days. and when tip lost as he did in that first year a couple of times, you know, he put it aside and, say, on the tax cuts and he waited a year or so later. turned out the tax cuts reagan passed were creating tremendous deficits and then he came back and said we've got to do something about this and he forced reagan into compromises that led to raises taxes. >> rather than cutting social security. rather than cutting social security is what reagan wanted to do. right. >> so in this instance, we'll have these guys saying get rid of obama care first. wait is second. you have millions of people coming to sign up. if it is going to crash the economy, then you can come back and say see, we were right, they

were wrong. let's do something about it. if reality has given us that point, then the american people will vote more for republicans and will come rallying. >> it's called repeal. tried for prohibition about a decade. didn't work so we got rid of it. they're afraid to try it because they're afraid people are going to like it. i wish we had more time. cynthia, one last quick word. >> they are afraid people are going to like it, chris. that's the reason they're fighting so hard to shut it down. >> i'm with you. thank you so much. have a nice weekend, if you can, if you're not working for the government. this thing about you have to show up but we're not going to pay you, that's not going to last long at the tsa with women and men checking our language. i want them happy. thank you both. up next, sleeping on the job. what's got this congressman snoozing away? i think he's got a good case. louie gohmert was talking. the birther. better not heard. this is "hardball," the place for politics. when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals:

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time for the sideshow. it's been a long, tense week for washington with congress working overtime lawmakers playing political games over the shutdown and yesterday's car chase. cameras caught him snoozing during louie gohmert's lengthy speech. he may have to carry that small embarrassment for awhile, the congressman joins the ranks of many other politician who is have been caught nodding off. to commemorate his now-famous slumber, we've put together a montage of other great political naps. let's take a look. >> it's about trying to do what's right for the whole country. and if your heart doesn't -- ♪

[ snoring ] >> and if your heart doesn't break when you read these stories -- >> don't you love it the way the guy wakes up and realizes he's on camera? finally, the republican governor of pennsylvania tom corbett has ignited a controversy after trying to back track which likened gay marriage to underage marriage. in doing so, the governor then made it worse by comparing same-sex marriage to incest. there's an old one. listen to how that played out at the local cbs station up at harrisburg. >> there was a controversial remark made by a member of your legal team comparing gay marriage to the union of

12-year-olds saying both are illegal. which you called inappropriate. >> it was an inappropriate analogy. you know, i think a much better analogy would have been brother and sister, don't you? >> i don't know. i don't know. i'm going to leave the comments to you and your team. >> that was a safe response by the interviewers from cbs. i don't know, i don't know. i'm going to leave that to you. up next, the governor of kentucky says opponents of the new health care law should get over it and get out of the way. it's going to help thousands of people, the bill will, and he knows it. governor steve beshear joins us next. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. for the opportunities ahead? who can show them how to build on your success, but not rely on it. who can focus on making your legacy last for generations to come? that someone is a morgan stanley financial advisor.

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police in washington, d.c. say a man doused himself in gasoline, then set himself on fire on the national mall.

he was flown to the hospital. his condition is not known. the gulf coast is preparing for tropical storm karen to hit this weekend. it's expected to drop as much as ten inches of rain. and a brazen heist at a luxury watch store in paris. 15 thieves broke in with axes and hammers to smash the cases. they took off with watches worth hundreds of thousands of euros. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." days before the state health care law exchanges are the center piece of president obama's health care law went live, steve beshear made one of the most compelling cases ever to support what we've heard here. in an op-ed piece, he first laid out the benefits to people of his state. one in six are currently uninsured. some 640,000 people actually get health insurance through obama care. then he concluded with a shot at squabbling politicians trying to block the law from taking effect. quote, to those more worried about political power than

kentucky's families, i say get over it. the affordable care act was approved by congress and sanctioned by the supreme court, it is the law of the land. get over it and get out of the way so i can help my people. here in kentucky we cannot afford to waste another day or another life. it couldn't have been a more apt rebuke after two senators from kentucky were caught this week on a hot microphone discussing the political gainsmanship of their effort to block the health care law by shutting down the government. >> do you have a second? and i'm all wired up here. >> i just did cnn and said over and over we're willing to compromise, willing to negotiate. i don't think they poll tested we weren't willing to negotiate. i think it's awful they would say that. >> i do too. i just came back from a two hour meeting and that was basically the same view. >> i think if we keep saying we wanted to defund it, we fought for that but now we're willing

to compromise, i think they can't, we're going to -- i know we don't want to be here, but we're going to win this, i think. >> kentucky's governor steve beshear joins us now from louisville. that was a strange conversation. anybody would be embarrassed, someone has to teach rand paul whispering makes it worse. you can hear everything but it's like what's he hiding there? let's talk about the serious stuff. we haven't focused enough on "hardball" because it's about implementation. and governors have to do that. talk about the impact of this new law on people who go to work in the morning, catch the bus early, put in eight hours a day five days a week, maybe 50 but don't have health insurance. the people we might call better off than poor but not well off. >> we've got 640,000 uninsured kentuckians in our state. these aren't a group of aliens from some distant planet. they're our neighbors.

they're the folks we sit with in the bleachers friday night. we go to church with them. some of them are family members. and this affordable care act is giving me for the first time in our history the chance to insure every single kentuckian in this commonwealth with health insurance. it's going to be a transformational change for us. over the next generation, we'll change the course of kentucky's history with this affordable care act. >> you know, i think people get confused because they think it's for the very poor. the very poor are covered by medicaid. this is going to increase those who can get coverage from it up to a third or 33% beyond the welfare level. making a tough income of 15k for an individual, you would be eligible. right? >> that 640,000 kentuckians. we're going to medicaid program. but the other 322,000 are going to be able to get health insurance for the very first time in their lives through the

640,000 will qualify for some kind of premium subsidy. win/win situation for every kentuckian. >> on a human basis, what do you think it means to a person to have health insurance that before and go to the emergency room and just sit there and hope for help? >> chris, we've got people all over this country and obviously just hope and pray every day that they don't you know, they keep their kids from going to the doctor hoping it's really nothing. bad from bankruptcy. this is what people have been living under for years and years. we've got horrible health statistics in this state. they're horrible all over the country. and they haven't gotten any better over the last few years. so this is a historic change in kentucky. golly, just like i said

the editorial, get out of my way. people. >> this is a political question, but i think it's important. we're not here with duelling proposals for health care. we're not looking at one party with the affordable care act that's now law and the other contender here. how do the people who are on the other side of the aisle from you in terms of party politics, what do they say they would do if what would they be doing now? chris, is they have spent all this time that's been approved by the u.s. supreme court. spent all of that time and energy trying to make other proposals, that might make sop sense. but they haven't made any kind of proposals. they're just against whatever the president puts out there. look, this may thing may not be but you know what? it's there. and it's available as a tool for me, governors in our

states. we're down where the rubber road. people. man, what an opportunity this is giving me. i'm not going to let it slip away. i'm seizing it. >> governor, key components of the affordable care act success is the expansion of medicaid to allow more working people to be eligible. so far 26 states have chosen not to expand medicaid as you did. many of those states are grouped in the deep south. unfortunately, that's part of the highest concentration of poor people and uninsured people. the area of red on this map shows it. the highest percentage of poor. largely in the deep south and large portions of texas. and this leads to poor and uninsured in those areas stuck in a no-man's land not to qualify for medicaid and not eligible for the federal subsidies. so it is really sad, i guess, to

see people, you know, slipping through the cracks here. in so many parts of the country. >> that's right. and we're the only southern state who both expanding exchange. before i made that decision on medicaid, i had two parts of at. number one, is it the right thing to do? that's easy. get health coverage for 640,000 kentuckians, it's the right thing to do. fiscally responsible? state do this? so i had a six month study. they came back to me and said governor, you cannot afford not it'll create 17,000 new jobs. positive impact on your economy over the to be a positive impact on your budget. i'd get on with it as fast as i can, and that's exactly what we've done. governor, you restore people's faith in democracy.

thank you so much, governor steve beshear of kentucky. up next, why would anyone opposed to the government shutdown ask ted cruz to campaign for him? somebody just did it in virginia. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] more room in economy plus. more comfort, more of what you need. ♪

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♪ i'm glad ted cruz was here. that was a great win. you know, you get more ted cruzs in there to back up jim demint and you have less to worry about. you want to -- you want to elect people you don't have to lobby. sort of launch and leave missiles, politically speaking. ted cruz is a good one and he's a smart missile. >> launch and leave missiles. we're back. in the race to be governor -- virginia's next governor, ken cuccinelli is embracing the shutdown ted cruz. the senator will be in for appearances alongside cuccinelli who's trailing mccauliffe in the

polls. virginia is home to a third -- the third highest number of federal employees and retirees in the country. something like work in washington, some of them, and all live in virginia. but is buch necuccinelli nearly pandering? take a look at what he said over a budget fight back in 2004. >> in my view, well, of course, in my view, we shouldn't have chickened out, but i'd have taken him right to the brink. i'd have gone right over the brink. >> well, sound familiar? joining me now are former republican congressman from virginia tom davis and steve mcmahon. tom, thanks so much for joining us. you're sort of a centrist republican, highly educated, as we know. i think you went to williams. here's my question. what's going on with cuccinelli? why would he, in a close race, would he bring in somebody so

polarizing this week as ted cruz? >> this was set for better or for worse several months ago. it looked like a good idea at the time to try to bring the turnout out as you get closer to election day. i don't think anybody at that point anticipated a government shutdown or that ted cruz would be leading the charge on this. but it's not a happy circumstance right now in the governors race, particularly for voters in northern virginia. even though he's going into virginia and even though i think they're speaking at a family foundation dinner together, but the optics are not good for federal workers and not just workers but contractors. >> yeah, and also people that actually make money selling meals to federal employees and help them in every other way as suppliers of their life. let me go to steve. one guy that didn't know he was heading for this i believe was ted cruz who in the summer began putting a hold on any meeting between the house and senate budget committees so they couldn't get their job done, we

wouldn't have appropriations which would leave the government wide open to a shutdown come october 1st. no budget on greeed to. all you have to do is kill one bill, the cr. here he is coming along saying let's kill the cr. didn't anybody see this mousetrap when he was setting it? i guess cuccinelli didn't. he's been running it up so he could be the troublemaker and the hero of the hard right. your thoughts. >> he may be the hero of the hard right, but going into virginia this weekend might actually -- cuccinelli was behind terry mcauliffe, every poll has shown that for quite a while. he's going to lose this race. if he had any hope, he might have just lost it this weekend. ted cruz showed how selfish he is by going in. he should have said i can't make it. cuccinelli should have said you can't come. if cuccinelli wanted to send a message to the center of virginia where this election will be decided, he would have told ted cruz he's not coming, and he would have done so publicly. >> what's interesting, tom, is

that whereas north carolina is starting to notch a bit to the right again in terms of the state university, i went to school there, and things like that, they seem to be notching a bit to the right. virginia seems to be moving slowly -- it's almost -- it's not a blue state, but it's definitely a purple state. moving toward a blue state. what's that all about? and what does that say about national politics? i was so taken with the fact that the state was too close to call in 2012 around 9:00 at night because that told me it was probably going to go for obama. but it certainly meant ohio was going to go for obama. it's right there at the center now, isn't it, your state? >> the demographic patterns are not pretty for republicans. you have a lot of new people moving into urban areas, highly educated people, very multiethnic. at the end of the day, this is not the group the party has been catering to. they have got to recalibrate if they want to stay competitive in this state or it's going to be going the way of california. >> what is the face of ted cruz on national television leading this kind of insurrection against the regular order?

what's that do to your chance of positioning in the center? >> well, it probably doesn't help, but i think, you know, cruz helps -- this is a low turnout race, this governors race. and cruz does help bring out that conservative turnout, particularly in rural areas, people that are angry at the government. he helps to that extent, but you have to understand that there is a counterveiling feeling among federal employees who are out of work, government contractors who can't work under these conditions in many cases that will bring an intensity to those areas that cuccinelli doesn't need at this point. >> you know, tom, the base of the party -- i'm sorry. >> steve, i've got to ask you a question. imagine ted cruz walking through a tsa security check at the airport. he still has to do that. imagine him walking past guys and women who are not getting paid but forced to work as essential workers because it's their duty to work. as these days and weeks go on, perhaps, ted cruz has to go to the airport from texas, walk past people who know that this is the guy that's causing them not to get paid but forced to work. >> yeah, absolutely. he's not going to be -- he's not

a popular guy in his own caucus. and that's the place probably where he's most popular. as you go farther and farther out with the exception of tea party extremists, he's not popular at all. and for ken cuccinelli to think that the way to get to the middle and the way to win a purple state, virginia, and the way to get these centrist voters to get ted cruz in, he's crazy. it's just another boneheaded move by a boneheaded candidate in a boneheaded campaign. >> chris, let me just say, virginians probably blame both parties on this, but ted cruz has become the face of this. and that's the difficulty, i think. >> that's right. that's exactly right. >> thank you, steve. thank you, tom. we're going to be right back. hos having a big tire event? your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card.

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let me finish tonight with this. when you're out and about this weekend, i'd like you to pick up a copy of "tip and the gipper, when politics work." get this brand-new book of mine and see the many colorful tales of these two political giants that the way it is now in washington is not the way it has to be. i don't think this current fight is the fault of both sides. i think the hard right, the tea party and birther right is out to destroy the presidency and the legacy of barack obama. but i also think there's something larger at stake here. the right of the majority and the law we make to stand the test of time. there can be only one winner in this fight, the side that believes in both self-government by the majority and our democratic law. the affordable care act is the law of the land. you don't compromise on whether to enforce the law or not. you just do it and move on.