good morning. i'm chris jansing. every member of congress will huddle with their separate caucuses today to strategize next steps over the government shutdown. we are expecting to hear from both democrats and republicans in the house, maybe in moments. but the two sides aren't talking to each other. and now it looks like the budget impasse will just get rolled into the debt ceiling debate. and even with the new poll that shows a 70% disapproval rating for congressional republicans, they're demanding budget cuts as part of any deal. something the president won't give. >> we're not going to negotiate under the threat of further harm to our economy and middle class families. we are not going to negotiate under the threat of a prolonged shutdown until republicans get 100% of what they want. >> so where does that leave us? well, it means the country may

be hurtling toward default with some republicans suggesting if they don't raise the debt ceiling, we can simply pick which bills to pay. senator orrin hatch told the huffington post, i think the administration could work on who gets paid and who doesn't in a way that would pull us through. and listen to congressman joe barton on cnbc. >> this talk about default by the u.s. treasury is nonsense. the president can be smart or the president can be stupid. and i would assume as smart as president obama is, when push comes to shove, he'll be smart. so we are not going to default on the public debt. but that doesn't mean that we have to pay every bill the day it comes in 100 cents on the dollar. >> let me bring in our lois romano, shira center is roll call's politics editor. good morning. >> good morning. >> the "wall street journal" has a piece, top bankers warn on u.s. debt proposal. basically wall street bigwigs

are telling republicans if you try to pay the interest on the debt before you pay, say, social security, the markets are going to go crazy. jay carney said this pry oarization is essentially default. is there something the republicans are missing here? >> no, i don't think they're missing anything. they're under a lot of pressure from the business community to stop this right now. but i think they're totally dug in because they see it as an opportunity to get the budget cuts that they want and maybe even some tax breaks. and if you watch what the obama administration is, they're very focused on optics here. even the president yesterday, you know, daring the speaker to call a vote and saying they have the votes. well, we don't know if they have the votes or not to get something through on opening up the government. but the obama administration realizes that as long as he keeps the heat on, the public still will blame it on the republicans. >> and i wonder if there can be any heat from the international

markets, shira. worldwide china's finance minister says he's very concerned. vladimir putin said he'd stay home if his country was facing the same thing. although the markets here have been relatively calm. so if there's either a sense we're going to get an 11th hour deal or even if we don't get a deal, the consequences might not be so dire, is everybody just going to sit back and wait? >> well, people might -- i would be very surprised if we get a deal, you know, with a few days to spare. that's not exactly how congress has proceeded with business these last few years. if there's going to be a deal, i'm almost certain it will be an 11th hour situation. with regards to the market, though, history shows when there's a shutdown, there's often a little bit of wavering in the market but it doesn't take a huge hit, at least in the long term, at least talking about the two or three months or the quarterly reports, in part because the government is up and running again. but that said, i think it's both of these two economic situations

together, between the debt ceiling and the government shutdown that could add some tumult to the market in the next few weeks. >> a couple of key players stay missing from all this, lois. joe biden, where is he? where's paul royan? >> well, paul ryan doesn't want to come near this publicly. as we know, he wants to run for president an it's such a messy situation right now that i think he is probably working behind the scenes, in fact i'm sure of it. but i think as far as being the face of the shutdown, he wants to be a million miles from that right now. i think, you know, from what politico reported this morning, harry reid does not want joe biden in the negotiations right now because then the republicans tend to go around harry reid and go to joe biden. that being said, i actually think it's a little bit early for vice president biden to be in the mix. you know, they're still negotiating, they're still trying to figure out what's going on. i think you wheel in somebody like biden to be the face of the president when you get down to

the 11th hour. >> and the president challenged speaker boehner to vote for a clean cr. our whip count at nbc has been a little bit fluid. shira, what are you guys seeing and what are the chances that there would ever be a clean cr vote? >> i'd say they're pretty small at this point right now. various news organizations, and we've done whip counts as well, but it's really hard to say because a lot of these members, some of the more moderate members who have publicly stated that they might be interested in voting for a clean cr, they could be saying that publicly and then going back to john boehner and saying, well, this is what i need to say publicly because my district is a little more purple, it's more moderate, but really i'm with you, i can't vote with this because i have a primary next year or something like that, so it's really hard to get a real whip count until we see a bill. until something actually comes to the floor for a vote. >> republicans have come out of a meeting and just moments ago we heard from speaker boehner. let me play that.

we don't have it, i'm sorry. can somebody just tell me basically the gist of what speaker boehner had to say? do we know? okay. let me bring in congresswoman nita lowey, the ranking member of the house appropriations committee. congresswoman, good morning. >> good morning. it's a pleasure to be with you. >> i want to go back to the idea that there are republicans who are saying we aren't going to default because we just pick and choose which bills we're going to pay. and in fact there's a new pew poll out which said a number of republicans agree with the statement. the country can go past the deadline without major economic problems. 64% of tea partiers agree with that. so what does that say to you? >> i think it's madness. two points. first of all, the reckless, irresponsible republican shutdown could end today if speaker boehner brings the

negotiated spending bill to the floor of the house. it would get all democratic votes and we believe upwards of 20 republican votes. i want to emphasize the negotiating word again, because in this spending bill, to avoid any controversy the democrats took the republican number in the house and the senate. so let's just bring that bill to the floor. with regard to the debt ceiling, the president has made it clear that you cannot negotiate on the faith and credit of the united states of america. i'm proud to be a member of the congress of the united states. we are the beacon for democracy around the world and this kind of action is really disgraceful. >> congresswoman, let's listen to what john boehner is saying right now and i'll get your reaction on the other side. this is live. >> i'm not going to get into a

whole lot of speculation. >> that's the central sglargtar >> no, it isn't. the central argument is this, are we going to sit down and have a conversation or aren't we? >> we haven't heard many details about what a possible debt ceiling package might look like. are we not hearing any of these details because the previous bills related to the debt ceiling and the cr that you had to pull off because of -- >> all we're asking for is to sit down and have this conversation. there's no reason to make it more difficult to bring people to the table. and so there's no -- there's no boundaries here. there's nothing on the table. there's nothing off the table. i'm trying to do everything i can to bring people together and to have a conversation. yes, ma'am. >> -- asked to be fired or

resigned -- >> that's a decision for the president to make. >> a very brief q & a but you heard his central point and we've heard it from him before, congresswoman. he says are we going to sit down and have a conversation or aren't we? what do you say to john boehner? >> i would say open the government today, bring the negotiated spending bill to the floor, raise the debt ceiling and the president of the united states has made it clear that he will be happy to continue any kind of negotiations. let's remember that in december, 2011, there were negotiations and in fact they were this close, according to all my colleagues who were part of it, and speaker boehner just got up. but the president says he will be happy to have a negotiation after the spending bill is passed, after the debt ceiling is raised, he'll be happy to sit down with democrats and

republicans and have a talk about many issues, such as lowering the deficit, entitlements. the president has agreed to that. the democrats have agreed to that. and speaker boehner is stuck because the extreme right wing of his party just wants to redo obama care and attach it to everything. remember, obama care was passed by the house, passed by the senate, affirmed by the supreme court. any major piece of legislation, whether it was social security, medicare, has been changed over the years. i meet with constituents all the time to listen to their concerns but let's -- >> let me ask you about the concerns that have been out there for the last couple of days since the exchanges opened. "the new york times" reporting that a major software component that was designed by private contractors is to blame for the problems with the healthcare.gov website. and while they're working to fix it, what are your concerns? are you concerned that

republicans are going to have an argument to point and to say, see, big government doesn't work. >> isn't it exciting that millions of people are so interested in seeing how they can get affordable health care that they blocked the system. any computer system, and i'm far from a computer expert, has had glitches. they will be fixed. but the bottom line is millions of uninsured who end up going to the emergency room that middle class people pay for all the time will have access to insurance. we don't want to cut off obama care and turn overall the health care to the insurance industry and see premiums continue to rise. so glitches will happen, they will be fixed, but millions of people will have access to affordable health care. >> congresswoman nita lowey, good to see you again. thank you. >> thank you. you know, the administration, shira, is acknowledging that there have been some problems. in fact kathleen sebelius, who

was the target of that last question for john boehner, was with rachel maddow last night and here's what she said. >> you're right, we have had some issues about volume driving difficulty of people getting in, so we're taking it very seriously. the wait time is down today over where it was yesterday and the day before. we want it to be as easy to use as possible. would i have liked a much smoother rollout? you bet. i think the great news is we have 26 weeks of open enrollment. >> shira, is there much concern about this on the democratic side, on the part of the white house, or do they think really this is all in the rear-view mirror now? >> i think there is concern because enrollment is ongoing for several weeks. i think as more people actually do enroll or try to enroll in the program, people expect more problems and more glitches to come up. look, no one wants -- no one likes a government shutdown, but politically the white house is kind of lucky, i would even say, because it's distracting from

what would have been a huge story, which is the number of people who were trying to enroll through this website and couldn't and kept getting error pages. >> officials are saying they have staffed call centers to help people sign up and now they're encouraging you to send forms by mail. i guess if it's an image problem among people who want to hurt the administration or as we've just heard from nita lowey, does this just show the demand is out there and we needed this? >> i don't think it hurts as much as others do because we don't know anything yet. it's a computer glitch, as the congresswoman said, and everybody has computer glitches. i think where it hurts, the optics hurt the administration is i think they would like to put out some numbers and say, look, we've registered a million people. there are so many people that want health insurance and they're unable to do that because of this. we have no idea how many people are registering. we have no idea where the process is or if anybody is registered. we don't know if one person is registered, although mike

barnacle said he was able to get through. and so until we know and the administration can tell us, you know, who's registering, is there really this demand, i think it is an optics issue for the administration. >> yeah, they know how many hits but they don't know how many registrations yet, lois, shira, great to see both of you, thanks. overall the outrage of the government shutdown, this example hits home. andrea mitchell reports exclusively the government says it cannot pay military death benefits to the families of five u.s. troops killed over the weekend in afghanistan. families who lose loved ones usually get $100,000 within 36 hours to help them pay for the funeral or to take a flight to meet the coffin. the pentagon is looking into whether the law that was passed last week to pay military might be interpreted to provide these benefits to the families of the fallen. meantime, 7,000 children from low income families are getting a second chance at an education thanks to a pair of

texas billionaire philanthropists. laura and john arnold are donating $10 million to help reopen head start programs across the country. in a statement today the arnolds said they believe it is especially unfair that young children from underprivileged communities and working families are paying the price for the shutdown. hey you should take advil. why? you can take four advil for all day relief. so i should give up my two aleve for more pills with advil? you're joking right? for my back pain, i want my aleve. [ male announcer ] let's go places. but let's be ready. ♪ let's do our homework. ♪ let's look out for each other. let's look both ways before crossing. ♪ let's remember what's important. let's be optimistic. but just in case -- let's be ready. toyota. let's go places, safely.

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the backlash has begun. justin amash is facing a primary challenge in michigan. this morning brian ellis announced he's running in the republican primary, backed by some business leaders who say they want a more traditional republican. could other tea party lawmakers face the same backlash? joining me now, amy kremer, chair of the tea party express. good to see you, amy. good morning. >> good morning, chris. thanks for having me.

>> as i mentioned, it isn't just congressman amash. the "washington post" reports similar efforts are under way in north carolina, in tennessee, backed by business leaders who frankly think the government shutdown strategy is bad for the economy. has the tea party pushed republicans too far? >> i don't think so. i mean these members are doing exactly what they were elected to do. this is not really about the government shutdown, this is about obama care, a bad law that has been shoved down our throats -- >> how was it shoved down your throats? it was passed. it was passed by both houses. it was affirmed by the supreme court. you lost. >> you know what, i've said it time and time again and i really don't want to get into it, but it was passed with a procedural trick, not through the normal process. the supreme court rewrote it as a tax and quite frankly, if the american people had known all of the bad stuff that they know right now, had they known that last november, i'm not so sure that the election would have been what it turned out to be. but the fact is, we are here. obama care, right, is the law of

the land. but there have been other laws of the land that have been changed. this is not a law that the american people want and you were just talking -- >> and there have been laws that have been changed, but has any law ever been challenged by forcing a government shutdown. and may we also say that you and other people -- let me finish. >> you and other people made obama care a huge campaign issue and you did it very forcefully and you did it backed by millions of people and the american people re-elected barack obama by a substantial majority. >> i don't know what you mean by we did it with millions of dollars. i mean presidential politics has a lot of money flowing through presidential politics. >> well, it isn't presidential politics, there have been a lot of money spent on ads about obama care specifically. >> it's like i said, the tea party movement rose up because people were frustrated with both political parties and people engage when things affect them personally. right now what we're seeing happen is that people are getting engaged and pushing back on this because they don't like

it. president obama made a promise that he knew was not real. you can keep your doctor. you can keep your plan. do you think it's right for anybody to go out there and make promises that they know are not going to be kept? >> do you think it's right, amy, for american families who have lost loved ones fighting overseas for our freedom in afghanistan don't get their benefits because of the government shutdown, can't pay for the funeral, can't fly to beat the coffin. >> that's horrific. that's horrific, chris. and i believe -- >> it's a result of this decision. >> chris, i believe that our congress or the house of representatives and our senate will do the right thing and get that funding to those families. just like the house has passed, i believe, four crs over the past week that harry reid refuses to bring to the senate floor. president obama keeps say bring a cr, bring a clean cr to the floor and let them vote on it.

well, my question is, why doesn't harry reid bring the clean defund obama care to the floor and let the senate vote on it. why doesn't he bring the clean delay obama care bill to the floor and let them vote on that? >> republicans refuse to enter budget negotiations with the senate 18 times. 18 times it was proposed. 18 times they refused. in fact they bragged about refusing it and then they started accusing the democrats of refusing to go to conference. that is a fact. >> the fact is that we were going to end up here because president obama and harry reid, i'm not sure which one wears the pants in the family, but they wanted a shutdown. they started talking about it july 26th, threatening a shutdown if we did not roll back the sequester cuts. they want to spend, spend and spend some more. we're $17 trillion in debt. we can't afford it. that's the bigger issue. and paobama care is putting a massive amount of debt on our country and the american people

do not want this law. president obama doesn't just represent democrats. he represents the american people. he is supposed to be the leader. and what kind of leadership is it when he is standing there saying i'm not going to negotiate. i'm not going to negotiate. he should get to the negotiating table and harry reid should get to the negotiating table and so should the republicans. they all need to come together. but you're -- i don't care what they negotiate, the american people don't want this law and when the president himself has changed the law and given exemptions to big business, special interests, even members of congress, there's no reason that they can't delay and exempt the american people for this law. >> well, the american people also say they didn't want the government shutdown, so i guess you can use whatever pull support what you want to say. but the fact of the matter is -- >> same with you. >> the majority of american people also say that they don't want the government shut down in order to repeal obama care. the conversation will continue

and it is being fought in the halls of congress. tea party express chair amy kremer, thank you so much for coming on. >> thanks, chris. thanks for having me. u.s. forces are now on high alert after the capture of suspected terrorist in libya over the weekend. 200 marines have joined those already in sicily. the task force was formed after the attack in benghazi and can quickly respond to know security incidents in the region. a lead interrogator is grilling him on board the uss san antonio in the mediterranean. he was part of osama bin laden's inner circle and would have detailed knowledge of al qaeda terror plots. also nbc news has exclusive details about why u.s. special forces abandoned that raid in somalia. the target there was a top commander in al shabaab, the terror group behind the deadly mall massacre in kenya. they made a beach landing in darkness. a member of al shabaab noticed

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to politics now. in indonesia secretary of state john kerry joked with standing in for president obama who skipped the asian economic summit because of the shutdown. >> i want you all to know that in 2004 obviously i worked very, very hard to replace a president. this is not what i had in mind. >> wisconsin governor scott walker now has a democratic challenger. former biking executive and former state commerce secretary mary burke has announced her plans to run next year. and a play about anthony weiner is about to make its

off-broadway debut. it's described as a greek tragedy with elements of danger, carlos danger. the weiner monologues, as it's called, is based in part on explicit text messages the former congressman and new york mayoral hopeful sent to women he met online. a highly politically charged case is topping the agenda as the supreme court goes back into session this hour. for the first time since its controversial citizens united ruling paved the way for unlimited contributions from corporations and unions, justices will hear a challenge from republicans, who are trying to remove the limits any person can contribute. at stake isn't just who gets elected. "the new york times" reports that soon after the president was re-elected, a small group of conservatives put together a plan to defund obama care with millions of dollars to back it up and to pay for ads like this.

let's bring in democratic consultant jason stanford, the partner with the truman national security project and noelle nikpour. noelle, the "times" points out many americans didn't see this shutdown coming but apparently the seeds were sewn months ago. the koch brothers have spent more than $5 million on anti-obama care ads. the tea party patriots put out a defunding tool kit complete with talking points and sample letters to the editor. is this how democracy should work? >> well, yes, chris, in a way it is. i'll tell you why. number one, i'm a big fan of what the koch brothers are doing. i think that they inform people. they expose people for wrongdoing. and i like the fact that they

are exposing what they think is right through these ads and what they're doing to gather money from different donors to fund it. i think that we have a right to have things exposed. i think that americans don't always know what's going on behind the scenes and what the ramifications are. >> but, jason, is this the way to run a democracy? >> god, no. i don't think you can find a majority of americans to agree with that right now. and i think what we're seeing is what's going on behind the scenes is a few billionaires are trying to pull the strings of our democracy. and if the supreme court goes along with this and removes the individual limits to federal giving, we'll see a few more billionaires get in the game and congress less responsive. this is a problem of rich versus poor. this will exacerbate the income gap in that country and turn congressmen from being dependent on super pacs and parties to

being dependent of donors. they will turn into wholly owned subsidiaries of a few rich guys and that's a horrible idea. >> that's exactly what this supreme court case is about. an alabama businessman wants the court to strike down the overall limit one person can give to a candidate and that would mean that a single donor could give up to $3.6 million. i guess the question is does that send a message to the average voter, you don't count. that the more money you have, the more your opinion is going to get out there? >> well, first of all, as a national fund-raiser, i will tell you that i look in the future for more regulation on donating, especially with the big money groups, which that is my specialty. i handle a lot of bundling for different campaigns. but what i want to tell you is this is on both sides. and wt i really love is how the media keeps pointing towards the gop bundlers, the gop billionaires. what about jeff katzenburg, what

about amy golen. >> as i just said, it is on both sides. this is a particular fight over obama care and the new information funded by the koch brothers and others. jason, political parties are no longer the main source for campaign cash that they once were and the reform of earmarks means leaders don't trade for votes the way they used to. so parties and congressional leaders actually have less control. i mean on one side campaign finance and earmark reform, maybe has it had unintended consequences of making leaders less relevant and, therefore, gridlock more likely? >> yeah, when they have to court super pacs that make or break congressional races now and they can't do that directly so they do that through their votes, then we have democracy by proxy. what we're -- what we're heading towards with the supreme court possibly lifting these limits is turning every congressman into

newt gingrich who is such a gleeful liar that he gave pinnochio envy. that could happen now with individual congressmen. you know, now we've ended up with a retread congressman on a retread show. i don't think we want that for our democracy. >> we'll talk more about this and i hope you'll both some back. jason, nicole, good to see both of you. today "time" magazine asks a pro zavauk afternoon question. are grocery stores on their deathbed. woe make a lot less interested in making sthur the melon is right and a whole lot more interested of staying in our car. let me know what you think about it. facebook/jansingco the. i'm tony siragusa and i'm training guys who leak a little,

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checking the news feed this morning, a new book out today as

she's about to mark one year sips the taliban shot her. then 15 years old in the head simply for advocating education in pakistan. now she's a contender for the nobel peace prize to be announced on friday. her book is called "i am malala" and in an interview she talks about the importance of education. >> we know that the terrorists are afraid of the power of education. that's why they stopped us from going to school. so we realized that it was important when we were stopped. i want these guys to realize it in the same way as we did and i'm trying and i want to tell the students that this is a big chance and great opportunity for you to go to school. >> malala says when she gets older she wants to return to pakistan and become a politician. that 9-year-old boy who hopped on a plane from minneapolis to vegas is expected to appear in court this morning but police are still trying to figure out how he did it. according to reports, the boy did a dry run the day before to

make sure he could get on a flight. he stole a bag at the carousel and then dined and dashed for lunch. the "minneapolis star tribune" says he's been in trouble before, including car theft. he's 9. and sneaking into a water park without paying. today the redesigned $100 note goes into circulation. it includes a blue 3-d security rib on aimed at preventing counterfeiting. this $100 bill is the most commonly counterfeited note outside the u.s. you'll need a whole lot of those bills to buy this, a white diamond the size of a small egg sold for $30.6 million at a hong kong auction. that's a new record. 118 carats. two bidders went at it for six minutes before one of them, name unknown, won. the airline industry uses about 4.5 million barrels of oil a day but some airlines are greener than others. here's a list of the most efficient airlines. southwest comes in at number

five, continental is the fourth most efficient. well, they're now united. hawaiian airlines takes third. spirit airlines is the runner-up and alaska air is the most fuel efficient. a link to the full list is at jansing.msnbc.com. have hail damage to both their cars. ted ted is trying to get a hold of his insurance agent. maxwell is not. he's on geico.com setting up an appointment with an adjuster. ted is now on hold with his insurance company. maxwell is not and just confirmed a 5:30 time for tuesday.

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and that terrorist is a woman. known as jihad jane. she certainly doesn't look that scary. she's 4'11" and weighs about 100 pounds, but she plotted murder and tried to recruit other americans to her cause. she's the latest example of the growth of female terrorism. joining me to talk about it, nbc news terrorism analyst evan kohlmann. good to see you, evan. >> thanks. >> so you have this woman, she's living in suburban philadelphia. now, she had a terrible childhood. she was sexually abused. but how do you go from that to becoming a wanted terrorist? >> she had a lot of time on her hands and she started getting involved with radical chat forums on the internet, places where jihadists and other extremists get together and discuss what's going on in the muslim world. she became wrapped up in this whole idea of going to pakistan, joining al qaeda and carrying out some kind of operation on their behalf. that's amazing is, is that this lady, again, who had never been to afghanistan, who didn't speak arabic, managed to gather around

her a group of other americans who were just like her. she managed to find a guy out in pennsylvania, emerson rigoli, who was a convert to islam, the son of a militia leader who was going out and setting up militant training camps in the middle of pennsylvania. he was going on the internet and offering support to the pakistani taliban. and again, look at the people you're talking about here. you're talking about women, people under the age of 18. >> if she lives next door to me, i'm not worried, frankly. isn't that the problem, though, really for american investigators because who's going to suspect her? >> sure. and look at samantha lewthwaite. the latest lady who had this -- >> known as the when i had bite >> may have had some kind of role in the westgate attack. >> and in fact a kenyan intelligence report that was just leaked yesterday links her to the man that the u.s. navy

s.e.a.l.s were trying to capture in that aborted mission. >> she's also the wife of a suicide bomber. so all this is very interesting. and even now you have actual terrorist groups, like the islamic movement of uzbekistan recently released a video where they showed a woman carrying out a suicide mission on their behalf. >> didn't they for a long time, groups like al qaeda, say we don't want anything to do with women? >> i think at a certain point people started making the practical calculation that if you're looking to carry out a terrorist attack in a highly secured environment, you're looking for someone that doesn't fit a profile, that's able to get through security. who fits that profile more perfect lly than a woman operative, particularly one that doesn't look like she's been to the tribal areas and isn't afghanistan or pakistani. unfortunately for us there are a lot of people in al qaeda and shabaab and other groups who are reticent to use women in these operations. unfortunately we're seeing homegrown extremists coming up

to the surface and saying i want to do this on my own, even if i'm not told to do this. >> it does seem that the motivation is very similar to what we see with young males in the middle east, for example, in that they're looking for some kind of structure. they're looking for some kind of purpose in their lives, and in the case of the woman who's going to be sentenced today, she was looking for a family. >> yeah. and i think that's exactly it. they're looking for a sense of affiliation, a group affiliation. and i don't think it's that much different for young men or young women that get involved with this. they see this also as tremendously romantic. there's an element of celebrity in this. they see these people like a young woman in the u.k. who stabbed a member of parliament after she listened to an audio recording of an war al awlaki. and this woman has become a select in the world of jihadis and there's this allure that you can become an instant celebrity, you can gain instant notoriety by joining on to this cause. >> let's see how much of a celebrity they feel like when

they're in prison for life. evan kohlmann, thanks for coming in. always good to talk to you. today's tweet of the day comes from long distance swimmer diana nyad. she writes my home for the next 48 hours, swimming for hurricane sandy victims. several selects and olympians like ryan lochte plan to swim alongside her for the sandy relief fund. the american dream is of a better future,

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new study just out shows that a lot of teachers are getting burned out. a university looked at teachers with less than seven years experience and nearly 30% of them said they were already worn out. what could that mean for efforts to improve our education system? we're taking a closer look at part of our annual education nation summit for 2013. joining me now is m. night

shyamal shyamalan, author of "i got schooled," the unlikely story of how a moonlighting movie maker learned the five keys to closing ameri america's education gap. it is a weird story. nobody is expecting you to be part of education nation, what happened? >> it is odd. they think i'm coming at it from some art angle but it wasn't that. our foundation started getting involved in wanting to know what worked in the research for closing the achievement gap between inner city low income kids and philadelphia in particular, that's what we were looking at, and their white suburban counterparts. it became an obsessive five-year thing of looking at the research and i put it all in a book. >> you argued, and i think this is counterintuitive for a lot of people that smaller class sizes are not necessarily better. >> what does work, reducing class size in the high poverty

neighborhoods. having early childhood education. that works. it gets -- because the achievement gap exists before it gets -- kids come to school. >> what did you find? what was your impression? >> well, you know, it's fascinating. not being involved in the field, i can say, look, i spent five years just looking at the research. i don't have an opinion on this so i can say, for example, what diane said, the research doesn't support what she said about class rom siroom size but it do support what she said about early education. so one is opinion and one supported by fact. >> so if you're a dad and you have a choice, i'm going to get a great teacher but it's going to be a big class and i'm going to get an okay teachner a small classroom, which do you pick? >> that is a no-brainer. if you have a great teacher with 30 kids and a mediocre teacher with 11 kids, no brainer. >> why does it work that day? >> the impact that a great teacher has so far outweighs from what you're going to get from a dramatic smaller classroom size. it's not one of the things that

will close the achievement gap. it's one of those things that makes a really good private school a little bit better. that's a separate thing than what we're talking about. closing the achievement gap. classroom size it not part of that equation. >> and it does start with teachers. teachers don't go into education to get rich. nobody is getting rich pie teaching sixth grade. having said that, you say there are five tenets to closing the achievement gap. one of them is no roadblock teachers. what is that and why? >> these are the tenets that emerged from looking at the research. i had my own feelings and they were wrong. these aren't my opinions. one of them is, just one of the five is to take out the very lowest group of teachers sha, t ones that i call roadblock teachers, that are doing so much damage that three good teachers can't make up for it. if you can take that drag away so 98% of the group doesn't have

that drag, you want a system where 98% of the teachers succeed. it's one of five things. people get very caught up on that particular one. oh, we need to fire the worst. we need to fire teachers. the research doesn't actually say that's the main thing that you need to do. >> real quickly, the main one. >> you know what, if i was saying what you need to do to close the gap, you need to extend the school day and the research says you need to extend the school day and the school year. you're not going to win unless you do that. >> the book is "i got schooled," m. night shyamalan, author and now education expert. >> no, not expert, just novice. >> it's great to have you. thanks for coming. that's going to wrap up this hour of "jansing & co." thomas roberts is up next. >> i see smart people. get it? get it? yeah. okay, never mind. thanks, chris. the agenda next hour. house speaker john boehner saying he's not drawing a line in the sand about the shutdown and the debate over the debt

ceiling. some of his republicans say all those dire warnings about a catastrophe if the u.s. government defaults is no big deal. is that crazy talk or a true method to the madness? plus everything you need to know about the debt ceiling and what will happen to the economy come october 17th. ezra klein and robert reich will be my guests. and the tale of the tape. it turns out there is a whole other story to that undercover cop that didn't come forward until four days after members of a motorcycle gang severely beat the driver of an suv. now that officer could be facing criminal charges. wait until you hear the latest on this. laura's heart attack didn't come with a warning. today her doctor has her on a bayer aspirin regimen to help reduce the risk of another one. if you've had a heart attack, be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. le le store and essentially they

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no mas pantalones! shutdown be damned, it's all about the debt ceiling. a new shiny object to distract from governing. ten days and counting is how long is left until the u.s. government defaults on its debt for the first time in history. the republicans dancing all over that deadline and some republicans on the hill wanting you