♪ americans expect us to work out our differences. >> i told them what i've been saying publicly, that i am happy to talk with him and other republicans about anything. >> refusing to negotiate is an untenable position. >> the american people do not get to demand a ransom for doing their jobs. >> harry reid and the president are putting our country on a pretty dangerous path. >> they have decided to run out the clock until there is a government shutdown, thinking it would give them more leverage. >> i'm trying to do everything i can to bring people together and have a conversation. >> let's stop the excuses. let's take a vote in the house. let's end this shutdown right now. eight days into the shutdown and what would it take for house

republicans to stand up to their far-right flank, release the economic hostages and reopen the federal government? with house speaker john boehner maintaining that all he wants to do is have a conversation with the president, he got his wish today. when president obama rang him up. and we have just learned that speaker boehner will make a statement at 4:30 p.m., which, of course, we'll bring you live. and president obama today called on the speaker, reiterating that he's willing to negotiate with republicans, just as soon as they reopen the government and stop threatening to default on the nation's debt. just because they don't like the health care law. that's the president's position. and at a press conference today, he stuck with it. >> i will sit down and work with anyone of any party, not only to talk about the budget. i'll talk about ways to improve the health care system. i'm ready to head up to the hill and try. i'll even spring for dinner again. but i'm not going to do it until the more extreme parts of the

republican party stop forcing john boehner to issue threats about our economy. we can't make extortion routine as part of our democracy. >> meanwhile, republican leaders in the house today unveiled a proposal for a bipartisan, 20-member committee to make recommendations on a debt limit increase in ways to reign in the country's deficit. call it the super-duper committee, because that worked so well the last time. also earlier today, he said he wants everything on the table, or off the table, or whichever. >> all we're asking for is to sit down and have this conversation. there's no reason to make it more difficult to bring people to the table. and so i -- there's no -- there's no boundaries here. there is nothing on the table. there is nothing off the table. >> okay, let's give him a minute to sort that out. but you might want to act quickly, mr. speaker, because in addition to polls that show a spike in house oh republican disapproval ratings, the

"washington post" reports that republicans could lose their majority because of the shutdown. they cite data from three polls showing democrats would pick up 30 seats, giving them control of the chamber. and that's not all. when those surveyed were told their gop representative voted for the shutdown, the swing was even sharper. quote, more like a 50-seat gain for democrats. equivalent to a wave election. but none of that, of course, matters, because in republicans' view, the affordable care act is going to destroy america anyway, so why worry. joining me now in new york is msnbc political analyst david corn of "mother jones," magazine. and david, you've done a lot of reporting on the president's posture then and now. so going back to 2011, the president was sort of maneuvered into a negotiation with republicans over the debt limit. and your reporting is that this time it's different. what is different in the white house view? >> well, it's interesting. in 2011, the -- the economy was in a worse position in a lot of ways. it's not great now but it's better than it was back then.

and the president and his advisers really feared that a default would cause not a recession, maybe even a depression. and the economy couldn't take that. and they ended up cutting a deal, which the president thought could get them maybe to a grand bargain. it was set up -- remember the super committee -- not super-duper, but super committee that was supposed to put both -- from the democratic side talk of taxes on the table and the republican side, talk of entitlement cuts on the table and if not, the sequestered cuts would hit. that committee fell apart, largely because john boehner, who wants a kfrlgs conversation now, his guys couldn't talk about taxes. >> right. >> and so it fell apart. we had the sequestered cuts and the president now two years later realizes that didn't work out so well. and at the time, in 2011, he was reluctant -- probably a good word to put it. to cut that -- that sort of deal, because of the things he is saying now. it just gives them an incentive, the republicans, the other side, to try to extort a president, to

take hostages, take the economy hostage. and at the time in private meetings with his aides, he was saying, you know what, i will not let this happen again. this perverts the constitutional balance of powers. and he said, you know -- basically said never again. and so flash forward two years later, it didn't work out that well for him. republicans weren't able to have a conversation afterwards. and so now he's back to where i think his gut had him two years ago, we can't let this stand. >> right. >> now, the big question will be, if republicans are committed -- >> right. >> to going off the cliff on october 17th, midnight, does the president let them -- >> right. jack lew and the others -- because the question is, what you talked about before, was predicated on the idea that john boehner could actually deliver a deal. deliver a grand bargain. i think two years on, and, you know, this is something that you will hear from folks in the white house. they don't really believe that john boehner even has the goods to deliver it. so now what's the incentive to come to a deal and do another super committee when there is

this belief? you heard in the president's press conference. he said the extremists are making john boehner take hostages. they don't believe he can do it. >> there was a republican aide quoted in the national review saying boehner doesn't have the votes for a big deal or minimal size deal, small deal or any deal at all. so i don't really know what he wants to do with a conversation. you notice he doesn't use the word "compromise." while the president at his press conference talked about compromise a lot. >> right. >> that's because john boehner could not sell any sort of compromise to his 30, 40, 50 tea party extremists. >> he's not allowed to use the word. this is how captive john boehner is. he can't even use the word. i. to play you something that senator harry reid said on the floor. i think it gets to the bigger picture here, which is i think that democrats want people to be reminded. let's listen to harry reid. >> it's pretty obvious what's going on. i've known it all the time. these are very, very rich people. in america. who don't believe in government.

they used obama care as a conduit to shut down the government. >> so david, are republicans now being exposed on this point? and do you sense that they are trying to push back against that bigger picture? because it does look like these are the same folks that wanted to cut food stamps. now you're seeing the government sort of shut down in areas of real need. you know, $10 million having to be donated to keep head start open. are republicans on the hill concerned they're being exposed as harry reid said, looking out for the rich. >> in a way, people oh who are wagging the dog here, 30 or 40 tea partiers in the house that boehner can't control or win over, they have taken hostage, we'll shoot the kid if you don't give us this, but they don't like the kid. they don't like government. so unshutting down government -- wait a second. this isn't so bad. you have a bunch of these default deniers saying it won't be so bad if the economy goes into default. i mean, they actually want --

i've said this before. they're like the joker in the batman movies. they like the chaos. >> they like the chaos, except you've now seen these piecemeal bills, but they couldn't want to be blamed for military not getting paid. there are certain aspects of the government they realize are popular, even with their tea party base, and they are acting as if they are somewhat rational and know they can be blamed. >> i think these are concessions -- very small concessions. they're the tea partiers to boehner because they see what is happening to the party at large. a lot of these people come from gerrymander districts, actually destroying the government. even if it will hurt people back home. sounds good. particularly if it's obama's government. we can't get away from the fact a lot of this is driven by obama derangement syndrome in some of these areas. these people hate the president, hate what he symbolizes about the changing america and everything else. so they want to do him harm. and so we've gone for two, three years now where the tea partiers are wanted something. they have wanted a shutdown. they want to defund obama care. they want a default. they came to washington to

disrupt. they want to disrupt, and each time, a deal has been cut. >> right. >> that has prevented them from having the disruption they desire. >> right. >> but now they're ready to see that disruption hit. >> it's interesting. we haven't mentioned ted cruz for an entire segment. >> oh, my goodness! >> i'm sure he's disappointed. he has been the driver of this strategy, this sort of chaos theory. they just throw chaos into the government, shut things down. people will see how bad government really is. ted cruz goes away at these moments, when you're seeing republicans scramble to save themselves. he magically disappears. he's not talking. do you get the sense on the hill that republicans are going to -- at some point, it's a tipping point. they hate obama, but aren't they going to start to hate ted cruz more and push back against his strategy? >> it depends which republicans. you said earlier john boehner is doing what he's doing to save his speakership. i think there's -- there's a lot of that in this. but also i think what he's trying to do is prevent a civil war within the republican party. the tea partiers are people who don't believe in compromise.

they don't believe in moderation. they want to see the you know what hit the fan. they'll be very happy with that. well, other republicans, particularly some, you know, can't call them moderates. people like john mccain and lindsey graham in the senate, don't want to be known for blowing up government. and they don't like this. they have been very upset about ted cruz leading them down this path without any exit strategy. and so these parties are -- you know, factions are at war with each other and john boehner is caught between them. and he's going to have to make a hard decision before midnight, october 17th. >> right. >> and i don't know how -- i don't know i put it. >> which republicans -- and they become i think the hero to a large part of the problem. david corn, thank you very much for being here. >> sure thing. >> coming up, our republican member of congress will have the opportunity to respond to the president's remarks. and later in the hour, speaker boehner himself with a statement and we'll bring that to you live. ♪

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we are moments away from a statement by house speaker john boehner on the shutdown of debt ceiling fights, a statement we will bring live. and that statement follows a surprise news conference by the president just a few hours ago. in his introductory remarks, president obama took time to point out that actually, he should wants be here. he should be in asia, attending a jobs summit with the leaders of 21 other countries. instead, the only thing america brings to the table at those meetings is a diminished credibility and the appearance we are a democracy in chaos. >> the greatest nation on earth shouldn't have to get permission from a few irresponsible members of congress every couple months just to keep our government open or to prevent an economic

catastrophe. >> and joining us now is republican congressman luke messer of indiana. congressman, thanks so much for being here. >> glad to do it. >> okay. now, you heard the president just a few hours ago calling out your side for embarsing the united states on the world stage, and you now are seeing also polls that unanimously show that tying the shutdown to health care is deeply unpopular with the american people. why continue with this strategy? >> well, listen. there were some of the things that the president said that were encouraging. but the real problem with the president is the things he does speak so loudly, you can't hear what he cease. i mean, when you boil out the hour-long press conference that he spent talking to the american people, he came down to the same place where he's been. which says he's not going to negotiate unless he gets his way on the continuing resolution. i know you've mentioned polls. i have to tell you, most members of congress i'm talking to aren't focused on polls. but when you look at those polls, over half of america believes that everybody is to blame for this. that the president is to blame,

that democrats in congress are to blame, republicans too. and frankly, i agree. by definition, when the government is shut down, we're not where we should be. we've got to get together, talk and get through this. >> okay. i want to talk a little bit about your particular situation. your office was recently decorated with tea bags. we have a picture here. i'm not sure it was a compliment. i think it was a not so kind message about the tea party, which is becoming more and more unpopular as a result of what's happening. do you, sir, consider yourself to be a tea party supporter or a tea partier? >> well, i'm not a member of any tea party. frankly, the tea party is not as organized as some would like to pretend that it is. >> but do you support the tea party? are you a supporter? >> i think it being for the tea party means you're for less spending, if it means you're for bringing government growth into control, then sure, i support some of those principles. but i think that trying to deflect this to be somehow about just the tea party or to demonize the tea party is another part of the problem here. the president talks about civility in his press conference

today, yet uses words like hijack. he talks about some of his party have talked about terrorists. you know, that's not civil. that's not the way we need to work through this. >> but congressman messer, is there a civil way to discuss the prospect of allowing the united states to default on its debt by breaching the debt ceiling? and the reason we talk about the tea party is the core tea party caucus in your party that is saying essentially, like ted ohoe of florida cdid, we could breach the debt ceiling and it wouldn't be a big deal? do you agree with that? >> no, i think it would be a very big deal. but i also know that every major spending reduction legislation over the last 30 years has been done in conjunction with the debt ceiling. that's been true of both parties. it was true of ronald reagan, bill clinton, george herbert walker bush or even president obama. just a year-plus ago. and so our best opportunity to get our budget under control is in conjunction with the debt ceiling.

frankly, because it's a big deal, the president should be negotiating with us to make sure it's not breached. we're losing days, because the president refuses to talk. >> do you agree that the affordable care act is part of nondiscretionary spending? >> well, i think parts of the affordable care act are part of nondiscretionary spending. >> okay, so understand when we shut the government down, it did not stop the affordable care act from going forward, correct? >> what has happened is clearly obama care has started to come into place. but you know, again, that's a part of media spent. we're past where we were a week ago. >> hold on a second. the reason i'm asking you that, congressman, is because this poll fight started out with your party saying that this piece of nondiscretionary spending, the affordable care act, something that was litigated in an election, you guys lost that election. that you would defund the government, shut the government down, and we would also risk a breach of the debt ceiling in order to get that policy undone. do you think that it is worth a threat, which is unprecedented, a threat to breach the debt

ceiling in order to get the affordable care act undone? something you can't do through this process, because it is nondiscretionary spending. do you believe that is a reasonable, historically sort of feasible proposition? >> yeah. i mean, i would tell you this. no one wants to see the debt ceiling breached. every major spending reduction legislation of the last 30 years has been in conjunction with the debt ceiling. >> we're not talking about spending reductions now. we're talking about the affordable care act, a policy that has nothing to do with spending reductions. do you think that as a sound policy, a threat to breach the debt ceiling over the affordable care act. is that sound? >> that's not where we are now. you're talking five or six days ago. the most recent republican proposal says every hard-working family in america who tries to sign up for obama care or chooses not to sign up for obama care should get the same deal that big business gets. the president has already given big business an exemption. he ought to give the same exemption to individuals this

year. and secondly our proposal says that everyone should be equal under the law. president obama, his family, the members of the white house staff, they haven't signed up for obama care. we say they should. frankly, if you make the laws, you ought to live by them. members of congress will be on obama care. >> sir, you just once again tied negotiations on the debt limit to the affordable care act. something you said you were five days beyond. so you're still essentially saying, it is worth the -- getting your changes to the affordable care act by threatening not to pay the death benefits to families of our servicemen. those two things are fine to put into negotiation together. >> frankly, that's not what i said. >> you judge just gave me more proposals about the affordable care act. >> please let me talk too. what i've said, those are our two proposals that have been tied to the continuing resolution that would fund government. frankly, the president said he won't even talk about it. we can't even get to the table to negotiate. what i've said about the debt ceiling deal is just this. we ought to tie spending reductions in a plan to reduce

the deficit with the debt ceiling. every major spending reduction deal of the last 30 years has been done with the debt ceiling. the president is the one that is saying he wants to change that trend, and do this entire debt ceiling proposal without any efforts. >> with all due respect sir, the democrats have come down to about the paul ryan spending number. what you just talked about, the compromises you want, are still on the affordable care act, which are not about spending. that is a settled policy. you're still tying the affordable care act to raising the debt ceiling. you just did it. >> no, i mean, i -- you're -- i'm not -- we've got two issues here. the continuing resolution, the proposals i talked to about the affordable care act are connected with the continuing resolution. what i've told you with the debt ceiling is that we ought to focus on bringing spending reductions to the table like we have done with every major -- every president over the last 30 years. we ought to do it now, too. frankly, i think, though, it's way bigger than that for america. we're at a point now where the president and harry reid have said they won't even come to the

table to negotiate unless they get their deal. the problem with the president's point of view, it is not a negotiation to just pick where you think the compromise ought to be and say if you don't come to the table, i won't negotiate with you. i think the american people expect more out of their leader. we need to get this solved, and the president needs to come to the table to do it. >> i think all people also expect not to have our congress say we would breach the debt ceiling in order to get what you guys want. the last -- would you. >> i didn't say that. >> sir, would you vote for a clean continuing resolution bill if it were to come to the floor right now? would you vote for it? >> i would not. i think the proposal we have is a very reasonable one, one that would make sure individual americans get the same deal that special -- that big businesses under the affordable care act and one that makes sure the white house, the president and others live under that law. so i wouldn't support a clean resolution. i would certainly come to the table to negotiate without any preconditions. i think the president should do that, as well. >> well, sir, i don't feel we've gotten very far here, but i really do appreciate you coming on. congressman luke messer of

indiana. thank you. >> thank you. coming up, as we await a statement from the speaker of the house, the american day shutdown hits day eight and the whole world is watching. just ask secretary of state john kerry. >> i want you all to know that in 2004, obviously, i worked very, very hard to replace a president. this is not what i had in mind. le e le e store and essentially they

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>> what the president forced to cancel his trip to indonesia a mid a budget standoff, it's secretary of state john kerry who is tasked with carrying the load of the apex summit in bali this week. while most foreign leaders were understanding of the president's absence, the staging coordinator for the group photo was clearly less forgiving. relegating secretary kerry to the far right back corner. kerry did meet briefly with the presidents of russia and china to discuss syria and the uncertainty over the american economy. it is china which holds more than $1 trillion of u.s. debt that's growing increasingly concerned and more vocal over the american debt ceiling crisis. for his part, kerry attempted to quell those fears and apologized to american embassy workers in bali who are feeling the squeeze of the government shutdown. and coming up, the president spoke this afternoon. up next, speaker john boehner. we'll bring that to you live, straight ahead. [ male announcer ] this is claira.

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we're awaiting a statement from house speaker john boehner any moment now. and here he comes. here he is. >> a pleasant conversation. although i have to say, i was disappointed that the president refuses to negotiate. when it comes to the issue of funding our government, the house has passed four bills. four bills to fund our government and provide fairness to the american people under obama care. each of those four bills was rejected by the united states senate. under the constitution, and our system of government, we asked that they sit down and have a conversation with us about funding the government, keeping it open and providing fairness to the american people under obama care. they refused to do it. now, over the last 30 years, dozens of times, there have been

negotiations over funding our government. all of those negotiations over the last 30 oh years have resulted in significant policy changes. and i would remind you, the president of the united states and i sat down in the spring of 2011 to negotiate funding bill for the government from march all the way through september. during that negotiation, there were all kinds of policy considerations and, if you recall, the opportunity scholarships for kids here in d.c. was, in fact, restored into law. so the president's position that, listen, we're not going to sit down and talk to you until you surrender is just not sustainable. it's not our system of government. when it comes to the debt limit, i agree with the president. we should pay our bills. i didn't come here to shut down the government. i certainly didn't come here to default on our debt. but when it comes to the debt

limit, again, over the last 40 years, 27 times, the debt limit has been used to carry significant policy changes that would, in fact, reduce spending and put us on a saner fiscal path. president reagan sat down with tip o'neill in the 1980s. president bush in 1990 went out to andrews air force base and got into a long debate and negotiation with democratsere in congress. bill clinton went through this three times in the 1990s. president obama and i sat down in 2011 and had a serious negotiation. and while the president today suggested that i walked away from the deal, i would have to remind him that i was in the oval office, along with the majority leader, eric cantor, when we, in fact, had an agreement that two days later the president walked away from. but there was, in fact, another

negotiation in 2011 that resulted, and really the largest deficit reduction bill that we have seen here in the last 30 years. but in 2010, when democrats controlled the congress and president obama was in the white house, what happened was, a group of moderate democrats in the house wouldn't agree to raise the debt limit without a negotiation. so there was a negotiation then amongst democrats over raising the debt ceiling. the long and short of it is, there is going to be a negotiation here. we can't raise the debt ceiling without doing something about what's driving us to borrow more money and to live beyond our means. the idea that we should continue to spend money we don't have and give the bill to our kids and our grandkids would be wrong. this isn't about me and, frankly, it's not about republicans. this is about saving the future for our kids and our grandkids. and the only way this is going to happen is to, in fact, have a

conversation. so it's time to have that conversation. not next week, not next month. the conversation ought to start today. and i'm hopeful that whether it's the president or democrat leaders here in the congress, we can begin that conversation. >> mr. speaker, can you tell us, please, what would you say to military families who have just been denied death benefits due to the shutdown? >> last week the congress passed our pay our military benefits act. we gave broad authority to the department of defense to pay al kinds of bills and including this. frankly, i think it's disgraceful they're including benefits. but tomorrow the house is going to act specifically on this and i hope the president will sign it. >> mr. speaker, the president -- go ahead. >> mr. speaker, the president made extremely clear -- you are making extremely clear you have to negotiate.

what happens, in all candor, if it is 11:59 on october 17th and we're not there? >> at times like this, the american people expect their leaders to have a conversation. i want that conversation to occur now. >> the president said today that he would negotiate if there was a temporary yield. >> the president said today was, if there is unconditional surrender by republicans, he'll sit down and talk to us. that's not the way our government works. thanks, everybody. >> all right. that was house speaker john boehner, making a statement from capitol hill. and now joining us also from capitol hill is luke russert, nbc correspondent. and luke, let's have a conversation. >> reporter: let's have a conversation indeed, sure, sure. >> the word of the day is conversation. so that was the main talking point from john boehner, a conversation. but he seemed to bypass the whole question of the continuing resolution and jump right to the debt ceiling. what about the continuing resolution? >> reporter: i was struck by

that, joy. because here we are. in the midst of a government shutdown shedding into its second week. and the whole reason it is shut down is a disagreement over the president's health care law. that was not specifically addressed in john boehner's statement right there. which means that these two issues, the funding of the united states government, as well as extending the debt limit, much as we speculated last week, have morphed into one, of which we are no longer talking about the disagreement over the health care law. this is now the republican strategy to say hey, we need to have a large-scale, grand bargain type of conversation about debt and deficits. well, democrats are more than happy to do that, from every public statement we have heard. but they won't do it until funding the government goes through and until the debt limit is extended and that's where the ballots will be. when the president earlier today, joy, said that he would be open to some sort of temporary extension of the debt limit, and government funding, that is has sort of given light at the end of the tunnel in the sense they can come to some sort

of agreement what would be the parameters of negotiations, what would have to be accomplished in the negotiations and there is some trigger perhaps both sides could feel some pain if negotiations were to break down again, alla super committee -- ala everything that has happened since 2010 when this has been upon us, perhaps there is a way out. either way, though, you're starting to see the posturing continue, issues leading into one and for folks affected by the shutdown, i don't think those words today just now from the speaker are too comforting. because this now means more likely than not we're at least going up to october 17th and these two issues have officially blended together and the fight over the health care law has now gone to the back side. i mean, it's quite remarkable that today the president's briefing, joy, that no reporter asked about all the problems that folks have had enrolling in the health care law. we can say that that's -- reporters should have asked that, they certainly should have. however, in this current

climate, when you have a government shutdown, fear of the debt limit, which was all started by disagreement of the health care law, started by republicans, all the problems with the actual enrollment of the law, which would have made republicans giddy, don't get the attention. it's a fascinating dynamic and shows how deep they have dug themselves into a hole right here and they're looking for some sort of life raft from president obama, perhaps it's a temporary extension of the debt limit and the government funding. but from where we stand right now, we don't know what that looks like. >> pretty remarkable that the affordable care act, which is what started all of this, is now a back burner, not even talked about. nbc's luke russert, thank you so much. >> reporter: thank you. >> >> we are going to take a quick break and we'll have much more on speaker boehner's response to the president when we come back. max and penny kept our bookstore

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as you all know, i had a phone call with the president of the united states this morning. i will say, it was a pleasant conversation. although i have to say, i was disappointed that the president refuses to negotiate. >> that was speaker john boehner responding to the president just moments ago. and joining us now is michael eric dyson of georgetown university and with me-onset is co-host "the cycle," ari melber. ari, luke russert was talking about this idea that now the republicans' way to back out of this mess they have gotten themselves into is to try to throw everything in, blend it all together with the continuing resolution. is that a dishonest way to get out of this mess? >> it is exactly that. it is dishonest. you're talking about this idea that now boehner came out and said the real issue is the deficits. that's what we care about. that is not true. how do we know that's not true. because in 2011, they made a deficit-cutting deal. that gave us a sequester. and the democrats and the president outlined a over $1 trillion in the budget and the

republicans 7d said no, we want $1 billion. fast forward today, the democrats accepted the republicans' numbers. you cannot be neutral on the question of whether you want to destroy the american economy or downgrade our credit rating, okay? that is the problem that faces the republicans receipt now. and what i heard from boehner, the reason why it is so frustrating, because he is trying to dodge and weave and figure he can combine the debt ceiling, get everyone worried. he didn't mention obama care much in that presentation. when that's what they should the government down over. >> exactly. >> so they're going to keep out on the talking point about compromise when there is nothing left to compromise on when you've heard made the deal. and we made the deal under the republican numbers. >> democrats compromise on. >> so what the president is frustrated with, he's up there today, and what i thought was an incredibly bizarre moment. and we have seen this before. the republicans have normalized certain radicalism. we had several serious financial reporters doing their job, but asking how will the default work. how will we put this political

gun to the head of the american economy for no good reason. how will it work over one week or two. who will get paid first. all of this has to end at some point. no one thinks the debt ceiling can be just indefinitely defaulted. the republicans admit that. and yet we're having a conversation with the president over how to do something terrible over no reason rather than how to prevent it. >> and it did feel like john boehner was trying to maneuv maneuvernemaneuver himself back on to the more comfortable ground of debt and deficit. holding the nation hostage was not working for them. they see the polls and understand it's not working so they're trying to pivot back on to safer ground where they're more comfortable. >> absolutely right. the debt and deficit discourse is not working, because as mr. melbourne has already indicated, the ostensible reason for the thing to begin with, the shutdown, was obama care. obama care is nowhere in the neighborhood. it's not even in the greater vicinity. so what happens now, they pivot toward this kind of debt and deficit discourse, but the problem is, they have -- as ari

indicated already, they already cut a deal, the very standard by which this is being judged, is one that they agree to, now in essence what they're trying to do is moon walk back on their own commitment and make it look like it's the president who at fault here. i think that the polls indicate that the american public doesn't buy it. and now with the kind of in-fighting within the republican party itself with the various caulkouses at each other's heels so to speak, i think it becomes incumbent upon mr. boehner to go to the drawing board and figure out what's going on and the president has to answer all of these obnoxious questions about a deal he doesn't want to accede to and figure out a way to hold up the belief of the american public and the fact that we won't go down the tubes financially. we won't be downgraded as a result of the debt limit crisis that is looming right here. it's a big mess. >> and you know what, ari, i think what probably frustrates me about this whole conversation, this whole argument we're having, we described the republicans as taking hostages. but it seems to me, they're more like a raiding party that is coming into the village time after time and taking people. and they're taking hostages, one

after the other. and every time you give them something, they don't stop. they come back and take another person. and now this time they brought the hostages into the middle of the village and threatening to blow the village up. you can't negotiate. it seems that the president's position is untenable, because he doesn't want to default. this is clear. but if you give in again, having as you pointed out, already given on the numbers, already given on the idea of debt and deficits. deficits are already following. what's to stop them from not taking yet another hostage again and again, and this just being the way we do things. >> right. and this is not about public policy. because if it were, the policy concessions they achieve, they would be happy to take, bank and roll into law. roll into the federal budget. roll into the sequester cuts. what john boehner said were arbitrary and probably too large in the "wall street journal" the week before the sequester hit. there is a public record here so anyone following, which is not everyone, but a growing number of people in the country, wondering why is what the republicans doing disrespecting our veterans who have fallen in

war or keeping our parks closed or preventing us hunting in montana. many of the governments, quote, unquote, nonessential services help people live their lives. >> exactly. >> the other piece that is important that we have discussed before but shouldn't get lost, chaos and destruction is not just a threat here. chaos and destruction is actually the goal. >> it's the point. >> so along the way, when they can use chaos as a threat to get some things, as we have seen, they will take it. but ultimately, you have the core of the ted cruz wing of the tea party, which is not the whole party, but the core. >> right. >> actually wants the chaos. and that's why when they got the budget they wanted, they still found a way to shut down the government. and i fear some of them now look at the debt ceiling that way to their great peril. and the last thing i'll say, those so-called silent moderates, you don't get to say you're that moderate if you don't stand up to extremists threatening our economy and the veterans and the rest. you don't get to say you're a moderate if you're so cowed by a -- >> they don't want to be called

moderates. final question to you, the threshold of pain of the republican party that people we call moderates. is it the nonfunding of death benefits to our military? is it head start? what is the threshold that will cause the moderates to stop really being cowards and force them to finally stand up to this rump wing of their party? >> well, that's a great question. you would think that enlightened self interest would be one principle. that doesn't seem to work. you would think the hurt and pain they claim to be most committed to and what's a bigger symbol than the military. that doesn't work. so we have to go back to your analogy here. i'm sorry to push the analogy along forward. but maybe the -- the, you know, right wing ted cruz, conservative wing of this party, is really the sla, john boehner is the patty hertz and they're forcing patty hearst going against her principles and they have jacked up the whole process and situation. >> the way out is courage. the way out is for somebody,

namely john boehner, to stand up to these people and say enough. ari melber and mike buy son, thank you both. coming up, senator bernie sanders joins us for more on day eight of the government shutdown. stay with us. in the nation, sometimes bad things happen. add brand new belongings from nationwide insurance and we'll replace stolen or destroyed items with brand-new versions. we put members first. join the nation. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ my dna...s me. every piece is important... this part... makes my eyes blue... i might have an increased risk of heart disease... gallstones... hemochromatosis... i'll look into that. the more you know about your dna, the more you know about yourself... now i know. know more about your health. go to 23andme.com and order your dna kit for only 99 dollars today. learn hundreds of things about your health at 23andme.com

just over one hour ago, senate majority leader, harry reid and senator john mccain took to the floor to discuss the most tragic consequence we have seen thus far from the government shutdown. the inability to provide death benefits to the families of service members struck down while fighting for our country. >> shouldn't we as a body, republican, democrat, no matter who we are, shouldn't we be embarrassed about this? shouldn't we be ashamed? >> for more, i'm pleased to be joined by senator bernie sanders, democrat from vermont. >> independent. >> independent, sorry. independent from vermont. thank you for the clarification.

senator, is this the pain threshold we need to see for the members of the other party to finally reopen the government? >> well, i would certainly hope so. it is -- it is humiliatinhumili is embarrassing that when people lose their lives in battle, if their families can't get proper burial benefits. that is unspeakable. but i'll tell you, we're looking at now several million hard-working americans who have bills to pay, they have mortgages to take care of, send their kids to college. they're wondering, when they are going to get paid. we're seeing a contraction of the entire economy, which impacts every man, woman and child. we are seeing the situation where the president of the united states can't even represent this country in a major conference in asia, which is now taken over by the chinese president, because he has to stay here to deal with this artificially created crisis. so we should be totally i'm i will human i'llateded we have a handful of right wing extremists

holding us hostage and now threatening not to pay our bills. >> and in a sense, senator, is the householding the senate hostage in the sense that if a bill to fund payments for these fallen veterans' families were to come to the senate it would probably pass. if a bill to fund head start or programs for the poor were to come it would probably pass. so in a sense is the senate now hostage to this process? >> every time there is a story on television or in the newspapers about the horrors of the government shutdown, our friends in the house are passing legislation to try to address it. but the reality is, we have 2 million people who are not being paid. hundreds of thousands who are not at work. tens of millions of people who do not make the headlines. i worry about kids in vermont who are not going to be able to go to a head start program. we worry about senior citizens who get meals on wheels, so fragile, they can't get out of their home. they may not get the kinds of nutrition that they need. how many of them die. i worry about the stress that so

many people in this country are now under, and what that means to their lives and their family lives. >> and senator, you know, i'm curious and i know a lot of our viewers are curious. when you talk to members on the other side of the aisle, republican caucus, and i'm sure you have some conversations with them, what is their rationale at this point? what do they want? >> well, i think you've got -- it's very clear, as everybody knows, the republican party is not unified on this issue. you have a lot of republicans who are coming to the floor of the senate, and to the floor of the house, and this is what they're saying. they're saying, we hate obama care. we want to defund obama care. but, you know what, we lost the election. obama is the president. and we are going to have to proceed in a different way. if we want to make changes in obama care, there is a legislative process. what they are saying, loudly and clearly, is you cannot hold the american people hostage. you can't refuse to pay your bills. and throw the entire world into a catastrophic financial situation because you want to

get your way. >> indeed. indeed. independent senator bernie sanders of vermont, our thanks. and we'll be right back. clearly, is you cannot hold the sanders of vermont, our thanks. if we want to improve our schools... ... what should we invest in? maybe new buildings? what about updated equipment? they can help, but recent research shows... ... nothing transforms schools like investing in advanced teacher education.

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